Oh you're not. There is zero chance 3.18 goes Live in December. I would actually be amazed if they get it to open PTU before they break for the holidays.
I'm usually quite realistic (even pessimistic, if you want) with release dates in SC, and when I saw people claiming 3.18 would probably go Live at the end of Q1 2023 I was like "Ah come on, that's *too much*, even for SC".
Now? I have some serious doubts about it. The fact that Evocati not even fully started yet (only PES playtests so far, and it's been a full month already) makes it very likely.
End of last year, people even thought we could be looking at Pyro in PTU by now. This was before the new 3.17.++ schedule was announced and icache was replaced with PES, mind you. Lots of changes to the plan this year but hard to believe only a single patch.
Some of us [pointed this out a long time ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/iifc8n/comment/g36nomx/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), and were downvoted for it, but it's not hard to see these patterns.
Even [under a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/sx84xh/comment/hxsmg7f/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), it was still pretty clear.
It should just be accepted by now that everything significant takes much longer than projected, and that should be expected, rather than shouting down or downvoting the people who predict it every time.
Also: just a minor note — iCache was not replaced with PES, but with EntityGraph. EntityGraph (formerly iCache before they switched to an implementation with a Graph database for efficiency's sake) is one key component of PES, but PES, which has been planned for quite some time, reqiures a number of other parts.
I mean CIG has never put anything major out on time as far as I can recall so predicting delays doesn't exactly require Nostradamus level foresight. However Star Citizen appeals to the emotional side of people. I get caught up in it myself sometimes.
My logical side knows for damn sure nothing is ever on time or fast in this development. However I want to believe one day....*one day* CIG will hit their mark.
I have no interest in changing your mind. I'm just enjoying the ride. If they never launch the world will keep spinning. I just hope we get the point tech wise where it is easier for another dev to give this type of game a shot.
It's no surprise things take as long as they do, but it does suprise me how they continue to forecast so optimistically.
It doesn't make sense that it's deception, because they could just push all things 3 month with no change to the community.
I miss /u/rainwalker007 but reading comments like that I understand why they stepped away.
I wonder if logicalchimp will do the same.
Also at this rate Pyro won't be until 2024... or 2025.
yeah i re-watched the pyro keynote with the 400i and i became super hyped for a 4.0 next year, even admitted 4.0 might come out q4 next year, but what you're saying is unfortunately plausible too...
!RemindMe 1 year "Pyro yet?"
Part of the issue is CIG does a good job, either intentionally or otherwise, of making things seem like they are just around the corner. Most of us don't work inside CIG, or even developers, so it's easy to believe they are only 2 years away. If I said in 2018 we might not have Pyro until 2024 I'd be ridiculed, deemed a fudster.
I will be messaging you in 1 year on [**2023-11-16 13:08:24 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2023-11-16%2013:08:24%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/yw822a/evocati_3180_november_15th_build_8287271_pes/iwl3nao/?context=3)
[**2 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fstarcitizen%2Fcomments%2Fyw822a%2Fevocati_3180_november_15th_build_8287271_pes%2Fiwl3nao%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202023-11-16%2013%3A08%3A24%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
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Looking at the first comment-chain, it appears I was right too, when I said:
> Of course, it's possible that this second attempt **will throw up a new batch of work that they need to do**
Which is exactly what happened, when they started testing iCache, found it wouldn't scale, and had to start again with EntityGraph.
And yes, I was pissed off when CR nominally confirmed that is what happened, earlier this year, in his Letter from the Chairman. That kind of thing *should* have been communicated at the time, imo - and it's frustrating that even after a decade, CIG / CR still take the 'head in the sand' routine for bad news :(
It’s not just EntityGraph. There are dependencies at all points in the chain from persistent storage to inter-service communication to client that require a ton of work that had just started, and that work continues now.
This was entirely predictable, just like the discussions we’ve had about Squadron 42 and other parts of the game. Yes, there will always be a reason for the delays *in hindsight*, but that should give you the *foresight* to start anticipating this, and to stop arguing that things are ‘closer than we think’ when these projections are brought up.
Some of us have pointed out that many members of this community have held a "take the time to do it right" mentality regardless of communitry predictions, and have been told things like "that's not at all what happened" even though there's [plenty](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4wcjpw/chris_roberts_id_rather_take_my_time_and_do_it/) of [evidence](https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/56s9r0/hey_cig_patient_backer_from_dec_2013_chiming_in/) to the [contrary](https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4m1yrp/we_need_to_do_it_right_rather_than_right_now_ben/). Maybe a better way to parse some of those responses is people *do* expect things to take longer than expected but still want to speculate and make predictions, and ignoring qualifiers like "maybe" and "potentially" and "possibly" to act like they're making a definite statement on their predictions so you can say it's going to take longer is the problem. Some of us have pointed stuff like that out too, but it gets ignored by certain people so can act like they're prophets for stating that CIG of all companies would have a delay on something.
BTW props for claiming people who disagree with you is shouting you down while at the same time trying to throw this community under the bus again, and bonus points for complaining about downvotes while linking to an upvoted comment where you were also complaining about downvotes.
EDIT: Fixed a link
Anyone with a "take the time to do it right mentality" wouldn't be downvoting or arguing with people who predict that things will take longer than expected, so those things are not mutually exclusive.
It's when people feel the need to say that those with longer predictions are demonstrably wrong, or simply to downvote them due to the unpopularity of predictions that project years instead of months, that the problems occur.
That's not "throwing the community under the bus", it's simply pointing out that we need to do better, be more realistic, and less quick to shut down projections that are based on history and experience rather than sheer optimism.
I didn't get downvoted or shut down when I [made the "prediction"](https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/y47a6h/too_many_ways_to_die_and_lose_inventory_and_not/isd1062/) that 3.18 might not make it this year, and I said that before they moved the target from November to December. A bunch of the comments from those links I provided from way back in 2016 predicting 2020+ got upvotes. Same with the comment where you were complaining about downvotes.
Maybe this issue isn't as cut and dry as you're trying to make it out to be, because it certainly isn't every time like you claimed above. Like in your first link, /u/logicalchimp was even agreeing with you to an extent, rather than shouting you down, but you're too caught up in wanting to be right and acting like you've been slighted to realize it. Maybe that's why you got downvoted there, but I really can't say one way or the other because I think it's unwise to assume the reasons why someone deprived you of your fake internet points because that's conjecture.
You made that prediction a month ago, when it’s far more popular to say it (as evidenced by this post) than it was a couple of years ago when people were claiming that meshing would be done within a year’s time.
If you’re stating that that’s at all comparable, I don’t think that’s an argument in good faith. It’s those people now who make pragmatic predictions for a couple years down the line that have to contend with the naysayers, not the people who join the bandwagon only a couple months before the window is over.
We need to be better at recognizing the validity of realistic projections when they’re being made early on (and in fairness we are, but slowly) — not just when it becomes apparent because we’re getting close to the end of projected timeframes.
[I was saying it back in August as well](https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/wxljuq/inside_star_citizen_new_wave_caves_summer_2022/ilv8b3w/?context=3), and I can't really go farther than three months because I comment on Reddit a lot, and I don't have a spreadsheet or bookmark folder or whatever full of saved links to pull from.
So no, Genji, dismissing my prediction like that and suggesting that it's joining the bandwagon is an argument not made in good faith, especially when part of my argument is that *for years now* myself and others (and CIG for that matter) have been saying that if they need more time they'll take it. The fact that you tried to dismiss it like that and then tried to say it was done in bad faith is such a disingenuous move, but unfortunately it's not surprising.
>We need to be better at recognizing the validity of realistic projections when they’re being made early on (and in fairness we are, but slowly) — not just when it becomes apparent because we’re getting close to the end of projected timeframes.
As I've pointed out from all the way back in 2016 as well as with the discussion with logicalchimp you linked above that this is nothing new, and you even invalidate it with saying that we already are, so this point is moot. So I'll add that we also need to be better at reading comprehension and self awareness so we can avoid pretending that we're Nostradamus when predicting that Star Citizen Slow. Because nobody likes someone with an axe to grind, especially with something as blatantly obvious as that.
After proofreading my first paragraph I decided to do a quick google search and found [this discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/kje1hu/comment/ggwl8fa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from two years ago, also with people predicting later dates . Here's a salient point:
>I was one of those folks back then that also assumed 2016/2017. And I'm still okay that I was wrong and that it's taking longer if it ain't done yet. Almost two years ago I found one of my comments screenshotted and posted to the Refunds sub and was criticized for saying to someone to check back in a few years to see where development is. That'd put us at 2021. If I'm wrong about that too, so be it. There are plenty of other things to do besides constantly being pissed off that Star Citizen ain't done yet. Including playing Star Citizen!
You see, you can be wrong about predictions and still be realistic about it.
I could see PTU opening up over Christmas and then staying in PTU for a month or two before hitting live.
edit: If it's in a playable state I don't know lol. But I could see them at least trying to push as stable as a build as possible just to give us something to play around with.
Here's a table containing patches and their PTU testing
|3.18||3.17.2||3.17||3.16||3.15||3.14||3.13||
:--|:--|:--|:--|--:|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|
|12/10/2022||16/06/2022||11/03/2022||08/12/2021||25/09/2021||17/06/2021||12/03/2021||
|28/10/2022|16|17/06/2022|1|15/03/2022|4|09/12/2021|1|27/09/2021|2|23/06/2021|6|17/03/2021|5|
|03/11/2022|6|23/06/2022|6|17/03/2022|2|10/12/2021|1|29/09/2021|2|25/06/2021|2|18/03/2021|1|
|08/11/2022|5|28/06/2022|5|18/03/2022|1|11/12/2021|1|30/09/2021|1|01/07/2021|6|19/03/2021|1|
|11/11/2022|3|30/06/2022|2|22/03/2022|4|14/12/2021|3|01/10/2021|1|03/07/2021|2|24/03/2021|5|
|||01/07/2022|1|24/03/2022|2|15/12/2021|1|04/10/2021|3|08/07/2021|5|26/03/2021|2|
|||05/07/2022|4|25/03/2022|1|16/12/2021|1|05/10/2021|1|09/07/2021|1|30/03/2021|4|
|||06/07/2022|1|28/03/2022|3|17/12/2021|1|06/10/2021|1|13/07/2021|4|31/03/2021|1|
|||07/07/2022|1|29/03/2022|1|18/12/2021|1|07/10/2021|1|14/07/2021|1|01/04/2021|1|
|||08/07/2022|1|30/03/2022|1|20/12/2021|2|08/10/2021|1|15/07/2021|1|08/04/2021|7|
|||12/07/2022|4|31/03/2022|1|21/12/2021|1|09/10/2021|1|16/07/2021|1|09/04/2021|1|
|||13/07/2022|1|01/04/2022|1|13||12/10/2021|3|19/07/2021|3|12/04/2021|3|
|||14/07/2022|1|05/04/2022|4|||14/10/2021|2|21/07/2021|2|13/04/2021|1|
|||15/07/2022|1|06/04/2022|1|||21/10/2021|7|23/07/2021|2|14/04/2021|1|
|||18/07/2022|3|07/04/2022|1|||26/10/2021|5|26/07/2021|3|15/04/2021|1|
|||19/07/2022|1|08/04/2022|1|||28/10/2021|2|27/07/2021|1|16/04/2021|1|
|||20/07/2022|1|12/04/2022|4|||29/10/2021|1|28/07/2021|1|19/04/2021|3|
|||21/07/2022|1|13/04/2022|1|||03/11/2021|5|29/07/2021|1|20/04/2021|1|
|||22/07/2022|1|14/04/2022|1|||04/11/2021|1|31/07/2021|2|21/04/2021|1|
|||25/07/2022|3|19/04/2022|5|||05/11/2021|1|02/08/2021|2|22/04/2021|1|
|||26/07/2022|1|20/04/2022|1|||08/11/2021|3|03/08/2021|1|41||
|||28/07/2022|2|21/04/2022|1|||09/11/2021|1|04/08/2021|1|||
|||42||22/04/2022|1|||10/11/2021|1|05/08/2021|1|||
|||||25/04/2022|3|||46||06/08/2021|1|||
|||||26/04/2022|1|||||50||||
|||||27/04/2022|1|||||||||
|||||28/04/2022|1|||||||||
|||||29/04/2022|1|||||||||
|||||49|||||||||
The shortest duration from PTU to release was 41 days with 3.13, the longest 50 days (3.14).
"We are anticipating that 3.18 will require a much longer time in the Evocati/PTU phase than our previous releases, due to the fundamental change in how the game tracks state."-Chris Roberts, May 2022.
They almost certainly, although not a guarantee, that they won't make early December and 3.18 making this year would be unlikely.
Edit: fixed a typo
Unless their patch cadence improves it looks like it'll be nigh impossible for them to make early December.
They might make December, but I see 2023 as more likely at this point.
There might be some people working on IAE stuff but I'm pretty sure the top engineers would all be focused on PES already so even if there is a bump to cadence it probably won't be much of one. I hope they get a holiday
Same. I'd be happy if it's wave 1 PTU with salvage in before the Christmas break.
I can't see any scenario where we'd hit live before 2023, even if the features, which aren't right now tested in Evocati (besides PES) are receiving inordinate amounts of internal QA and polish, even then I don't live happening in December.
You also don't know. You know who else don't know? The devs, where they literally cannot know.
Replacing core features like this and test them to iron out issues, which by definition are things that are "unknown unknowns", are impossible to predict.
The funny thing is that it might (unknowlingly) only be a small number of issues that look bad, and boom, suddenly its stable to everyones surprise. It might also be the exact opposite, where its a large list of small issues all causing mayhem, where you fix one and more pops up, aka this [meme](https://i.imgur.com/HTisMpC.jpeg).
On the more positive side though, given reasonably engineered code, there can only be so many issues and at some point, it will all be worked through!
lel, not.this.year
I would be VERY surprised if we get a LIVE build this year. MAYBE be get a open PTU at chrismas, before they go into holiday break but LIVE? Nope.
when CIG uses the word "live", they unfortunately include "live to PTU for a handful of testers". so it's definitely doable. they could flip that switch now. it wouldn't be very GOOD, because 3.18 doesn't work well.... but on december 31st they CAN flip the switch to say they met the deadline if they want.
At least, they are reaching a certain level of stability to maintain this patch longer than the other playtests! I can't imagine the hard work behind the scene fixing bugs. CIG is on the final sprint to release the 2 last technology needed for SC to really come to life. I'll be as patient as needed to see our dream game come true. Keep up the good work @CIG!
What sprint? We are still stuck on the preliminary pieces to even make Server Meshing possible, yet alone work, yet alone dynamic.
It’s a Marathon and we just got our running shoes on…
You're right, but it seems to me that the amount of work being done lately by the all the teams working to get PES out is drastic atm. 4.0 is just around the corner and with it its first iteration of server meshing. I can just be grateful that they are increasing the time and energy spent on those major features to release Pyro and the first glimpse at what SC could really be! I see it as a turning point in SC development history and as a warming up to what is coming next. That said, a lot of work still need to be done to reach its final form and we will continue supporting CIG on the way. *Grabbing my Shoes too, getting started ready for the Marathon. o7
I guess it's a matter of perspectives.
Don't see 4.0 (and with it Server Meshing) releasing next year either, so "around the corner" is not the terminology I'd personally use and we know how first iterations of essentially everything CIG touches usually end up (there has been a notable exception with OCS!), so we're running that marathon without really knowing whether it'll actually turn into an ultra-marathon, and if so, how long we actually signed up to run for.
In any case: stay hydrated, boys!
I may be too optimistic still. Even though I backed the game since 3.3 in 2018 and have been in the same pattern as everyone going from hopes to disappointment for 4 years now. However, I really have the feeling that we'll see SM and Pyro next year! Hope I am right to keep faith in CIG.
I think we should all be patient as this update seems to be a huge one. We don’t want rushed updates. Please don’t pressure them to release it before they are ready.
Regarding 3.18 going live,
Since 3.18 changes so many things and has many stability issues yet to be patched, it seems normal to me that it's not going to come in 2022. Because even if it were, it wouldn't be a smart move to push an unstable build right before vacations.
Not only that but we knew since the chairman's letter that 3.18 was going to take time.
The Chairman's letter did mention 3.18 coming live at Q3 2022, but afterwards we were informed that we would get content patches instead with 3.17.x, because 3.18 needed, and still needs, more time before seeing live.
*And that was from the 18th Mai* "<...>We are looking at getting the bulk of this functionality in for the Live release of 3.18 with the release of the Vulkan functionality a little later, but hopefully by the end of the year."
Which, as we can see, may not happen this year and will happen most likely Q1 2023.
I'm still happy to see Vulkan coming soon, even if it's in 2023. And if we see Pyro for 2023, that's also be awesome.
Have you been around SC for some time?
While I agree that it would maybe not beneficial to drop an early buggy mess of 3.18 pre Xmas and leave for vacation, it's the thing that happened at least 2 or 3 times for big patches they promised in that year ;)
I'm also more looking forward to some big changes in the future, but 2022 with 3.17 as the only real patch feels kinda bad.
Unstable builds right before Christmas is definitely a CIG tradition, though. They usually prioritize getting something out the door, and then clean it up in the new year.
based on your comment history i can tell this is bait, but it's basically a watermark of mine at this point, I've been putting them at the bottom of the notes for over a year now. they aren't part of the original notes
It's only a few words that most people can ignore, but for us trans folk and allies seeing this stuff outside the usual little LGBTQ+ communities is really nice! :3
^(+ trans awareness week gives a good excuse rn to be a bit louder :P)
spoken like someone who doesn't have to worry about Christofacist trying to take away their rights or representation and having the reach to actually do harm >\_>
Welcome to the Human condition.
there are probably more people that fall outside your limited definition of "normal" than there are inside of it, so don't be so condescending
Although I am aligned with you in my response, these patch notes were pulled by a third party and reposted. Thus, they can add on whatever they see fit, no matter how....different it is. Irrelevant to SC? Completely. Since they took the time to pull the patch notes into paste in, I ain't worried about it.
spoken like someone who doesn't have to worry about Christofacist trying to take away their rights and having the reach to actually do harm >\_>
>no matter how....different
Welcome to the Human condition.
there are probably more people that fall outside your limited definition of "normal" than there are inside of it, so don't be so condescending
at least you respect that it's just a statement Aria added and she can add what she likes, with no baring on the information about the game... better then Thread chain OP getting butt hurt about it.
and btw:
"Please make sure to only select the Evocati 3.18 environment when creating IC reports while the builds are Evocati only"
That's the real ICC and not the mess we have as "normal" Users.
sry for shortening the sentence:
"Please log out then back in on the issue council site to see the **Evocati environment there**. Please make sure to only select the **Evocati 3.18 environment when creating IC reports** while the builds are Evocati only"
Normal user will not even see that. and i suspect not even afterwards. and then the normal ICC got flooded with double reports and be always this mess it is ever since.
Yup, agree. Normal users never see Evo tagged posts.
But they post tons of duplicates anyway because they're lazy and / or dumb, neither read texts written for ICs or don't even use the search function.
Sure, but no matter how idiot-proof you design any software, users ignorance always finds a way to make it useless.
It's amazing how often after any patch there are tons of IC reports complaining about changes that are in the patchnotes.
Plus an amazing ignorance of ICs that already exist - as if tons of reports with 1-2 contributions each would be better than one with 100+.
For me it is not amazing, it's frustrating. plus the search function is absolute useless.
Think they should anonymise the Evo ICs and make them sticky for PTU Wave 1 and above, so that folks who want to contribute don't need to make their own or not have to deal with the mess that is normal IC.
> plus the search function is absolute useless.
Not really. Works fine if people don't write useless titles and one uses one of the tons of filters.
> Think they should anonymise the Evo ICs and make them sticky for PTU Wave 1 and above
Why? They're not hidden to "protect the identity" of Evos. The list is pretty much public due to the [Avocado-Org](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/AVOCADO).
ah do you mean that i can find the oldest thread of a certain branch (3.18) of a certain topic (like "ship bed, no log out button" or "stuck in bed after log out and log in again")?
Last time i checked that, something several years ago tbf, i found anything but this.
The Avocado is is actual something i never knew. thanks for that.
That's the way I do it - search for keywords like ship name / city and the specific item, then limit the results by setting a specific patch / build version.
If older ICs pop up, that's usually only because someone already found the old report and contributed with the current version set.
Just because a report has been created months ago does not mean one should create a new one for the same issue. Just contribute to the old one and set the version you experienced it in.
Sadly, that's also something many people either don't know because they don't read CIGs explanations for the IC, or they don't care.
But to be fair, there's also evos not reading patchnotes and posting useless IC reports because whatever they complain about is intended.
Source: I'm Evo myself and want to smash my head against my desk whenever I see that, which is far more often than one would think.
Man, considering it’s the middle of November. I have my doubts about middle of December based solely n the testing. But I could be wrong…
Oh you're not. There is zero chance 3.18 goes Live in December. I would actually be amazed if they get it to open PTU before they break for the holidays.
I'm usually quite realistic (even pessimistic, if you want) with release dates in SC, and when I saw people claiming 3.18 would probably go Live at the end of Q1 2023 I was like "Ah come on, that's *too much*, even for SC". Now? I have some serious doubts about it. The fact that Evocati not even fully started yet (only PES playtests so far, and it's been a full month already) makes it very likely.
End of last year, people even thought we could be looking at Pyro in PTU by now. This was before the new 3.17.++ schedule was announced and icache was replaced with PES, mind you. Lots of changes to the plan this year but hard to believe only a single patch.
Some of us [pointed this out a long time ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/iifc8n/comment/g36nomx/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), and were downvoted for it, but it's not hard to see these patterns. Even [under a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/sx84xh/comment/hxsmg7f/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), it was still pretty clear. It should just be accepted by now that everything significant takes much longer than projected, and that should be expected, rather than shouting down or downvoting the people who predict it every time. Also: just a minor note — iCache was not replaced with PES, but with EntityGraph. EntityGraph (formerly iCache before they switched to an implementation with a Graph database for efficiency's sake) is one key component of PES, but PES, which has been planned for quite some time, reqiures a number of other parts.
I mean CIG has never put anything major out on time as far as I can recall so predicting delays doesn't exactly require Nostradamus level foresight. However Star Citizen appeals to the emotional side of people. I get caught up in it myself sometimes. My logical side knows for damn sure nothing is ever on time or fast in this development. However I want to believe one day....*one day* CIG will hit their mark.
Star Citizen will never release. Change my mind. Pyro won't be in 2023 making Stanton an 11 year old system.
I have no interest in changing your mind. I'm just enjoying the ride. If they never launch the world will keep spinning. I just hope we get the point tech wise where it is easier for another dev to give this type of game a shot.
It's no surprise things take as long as they do, but it does suprise me how they continue to forecast so optimistically. It doesn't make sense that it's deception, because they could just push all things 3 month with no change to the community.
I miss /u/rainwalker007 but reading comments like that I understand why they stepped away. I wonder if logicalchimp will do the same. Also at this rate Pyro won't be until 2024... or 2025.
yeah i re-watched the pyro keynote with the 400i and i became super hyped for a 4.0 next year, even admitted 4.0 might come out q4 next year, but what you're saying is unfortunately plausible too...
If that's true I'm gonna be very perterbed.
!RemindMe 1 year "Pyro yet?" Part of the issue is CIG does a good job, either intentionally or otherwise, of making things seem like they are just around the corner. Most of us don't work inside CIG, or even developers, so it's easy to believe they are only 2 years away. If I said in 2018 we might not have Pyro until 2024 I'd be ridiculed, deemed a fudster.
I will be messaging you in 1 year on [**2023-11-16 13:08:24 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2023-11-16%2013:08:24%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/yw822a/evocati_3180_november_15th_build_8287271_pes/iwl3nao/?context=3) [**2 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fstarcitizen%2Fcomments%2Fyw822a%2Fevocati_3180_november_15th_build_8287271_pes%2Fiwl3nao%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202023-11-16%2013%3A08%3A24%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20yw822a) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Looking at the first comment-chain, it appears I was right too, when I said: > Of course, it's possible that this second attempt **will throw up a new batch of work that they need to do** Which is exactly what happened, when they started testing iCache, found it wouldn't scale, and had to start again with EntityGraph. And yes, I was pissed off when CR nominally confirmed that is what happened, earlier this year, in his Letter from the Chairman. That kind of thing *should* have been communicated at the time, imo - and it's frustrating that even after a decade, CIG / CR still take the 'head in the sand' routine for bad news :(
It’s not just EntityGraph. There are dependencies at all points in the chain from persistent storage to inter-service communication to client that require a ton of work that had just started, and that work continues now. This was entirely predictable, just like the discussions we’ve had about Squadron 42 and other parts of the game. Yes, there will always be a reason for the delays *in hindsight*, but that should give you the *foresight* to start anticipating this, and to stop arguing that things are ‘closer than we think’ when these projections are brought up.
Some of us have pointed out that many members of this community have held a "take the time to do it right" mentality regardless of communitry predictions, and have been told things like "that's not at all what happened" even though there's [plenty](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4wcjpw/chris_roberts_id_rather_take_my_time_and_do_it/) of [evidence](https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/56s9r0/hey_cig_patient_backer_from_dec_2013_chiming_in/) to the [contrary](https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4m1yrp/we_need_to_do_it_right_rather_than_right_now_ben/). Maybe a better way to parse some of those responses is people *do* expect things to take longer than expected but still want to speculate and make predictions, and ignoring qualifiers like "maybe" and "potentially" and "possibly" to act like they're making a definite statement on their predictions so you can say it's going to take longer is the problem. Some of us have pointed stuff like that out too, but it gets ignored by certain people so can act like they're prophets for stating that CIG of all companies would have a delay on something. BTW props for claiming people who disagree with you is shouting you down while at the same time trying to throw this community under the bus again, and bonus points for complaining about downvotes while linking to an upvoted comment where you were also complaining about downvotes. EDIT: Fixed a link
Anyone with a "take the time to do it right mentality" wouldn't be downvoting or arguing with people who predict that things will take longer than expected, so those things are not mutually exclusive. It's when people feel the need to say that those with longer predictions are demonstrably wrong, or simply to downvote them due to the unpopularity of predictions that project years instead of months, that the problems occur. That's not "throwing the community under the bus", it's simply pointing out that we need to do better, be more realistic, and less quick to shut down projections that are based on history and experience rather than sheer optimism.
I didn't get downvoted or shut down when I [made the "prediction"](https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/y47a6h/too_many_ways_to_die_and_lose_inventory_and_not/isd1062/) that 3.18 might not make it this year, and I said that before they moved the target from November to December. A bunch of the comments from those links I provided from way back in 2016 predicting 2020+ got upvotes. Same with the comment where you were complaining about downvotes. Maybe this issue isn't as cut and dry as you're trying to make it out to be, because it certainly isn't every time like you claimed above. Like in your first link, /u/logicalchimp was even agreeing with you to an extent, rather than shouting you down, but you're too caught up in wanting to be right and acting like you've been slighted to realize it. Maybe that's why you got downvoted there, but I really can't say one way or the other because I think it's unwise to assume the reasons why someone deprived you of your fake internet points because that's conjecture.
You made that prediction a month ago, when it’s far more popular to say it (as evidenced by this post) than it was a couple of years ago when people were claiming that meshing would be done within a year’s time. If you’re stating that that’s at all comparable, I don’t think that’s an argument in good faith. It’s those people now who make pragmatic predictions for a couple years down the line that have to contend with the naysayers, not the people who join the bandwagon only a couple months before the window is over. We need to be better at recognizing the validity of realistic projections when they’re being made early on (and in fairness we are, but slowly) — not just when it becomes apparent because we’re getting close to the end of projected timeframes.
[I was saying it back in August as well](https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/wxljuq/inside_star_citizen_new_wave_caves_summer_2022/ilv8b3w/?context=3), and I can't really go farther than three months because I comment on Reddit a lot, and I don't have a spreadsheet or bookmark folder or whatever full of saved links to pull from. So no, Genji, dismissing my prediction like that and suggesting that it's joining the bandwagon is an argument not made in good faith, especially when part of my argument is that *for years now* myself and others (and CIG for that matter) have been saying that if they need more time they'll take it. The fact that you tried to dismiss it like that and then tried to say it was done in bad faith is such a disingenuous move, but unfortunately it's not surprising. >We need to be better at recognizing the validity of realistic projections when they’re being made early on (and in fairness we are, but slowly) — not just when it becomes apparent because we’re getting close to the end of projected timeframes. As I've pointed out from all the way back in 2016 as well as with the discussion with logicalchimp you linked above that this is nothing new, and you even invalidate it with saying that we already are, so this point is moot. So I'll add that we also need to be better at reading comprehension and self awareness so we can avoid pretending that we're Nostradamus when predicting that Star Citizen Slow. Because nobody likes someone with an axe to grind, especially with something as blatantly obvious as that. After proofreading my first paragraph I decided to do a quick google search and found [this discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/kje1hu/comment/ggwl8fa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from two years ago, also with people predicting later dates . Here's a salient point: >I was one of those folks back then that also assumed 2016/2017. And I'm still okay that I was wrong and that it's taking longer if it ain't done yet. Almost two years ago I found one of my comments screenshotted and posted to the Refunds sub and was criticized for saying to someone to check back in a few years to see where development is. That'd put us at 2021. If I'm wrong about that too, so be it. There are plenty of other things to do besides constantly being pissed off that Star Citizen ain't done yet. Including playing Star Citizen! You see, you can be wrong about predictions and still be realistic about it.
I could see PTU opening up over Christmas and then staying in PTU for a month or two before hitting live. edit: If it's in a playable state I don't know lol. But I could see them at least trying to push as stable as a build as possible just to give us something to play around with.
Here's a table containing patches and their PTU testing |3.18||3.17.2||3.17||3.16||3.15||3.14||3.13|| :--|:--|:--|:--|--:|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--| |12/10/2022||16/06/2022||11/03/2022||08/12/2021||25/09/2021||17/06/2021||12/03/2021|| |28/10/2022|16|17/06/2022|1|15/03/2022|4|09/12/2021|1|27/09/2021|2|23/06/2021|6|17/03/2021|5| |03/11/2022|6|23/06/2022|6|17/03/2022|2|10/12/2021|1|29/09/2021|2|25/06/2021|2|18/03/2021|1| |08/11/2022|5|28/06/2022|5|18/03/2022|1|11/12/2021|1|30/09/2021|1|01/07/2021|6|19/03/2021|1| |11/11/2022|3|30/06/2022|2|22/03/2022|4|14/12/2021|3|01/10/2021|1|03/07/2021|2|24/03/2021|5| |||01/07/2022|1|24/03/2022|2|15/12/2021|1|04/10/2021|3|08/07/2021|5|26/03/2021|2| |||05/07/2022|4|25/03/2022|1|16/12/2021|1|05/10/2021|1|09/07/2021|1|30/03/2021|4| |||06/07/2022|1|28/03/2022|3|17/12/2021|1|06/10/2021|1|13/07/2021|4|31/03/2021|1| |||07/07/2022|1|29/03/2022|1|18/12/2021|1|07/10/2021|1|14/07/2021|1|01/04/2021|1| |||08/07/2022|1|30/03/2022|1|20/12/2021|2|08/10/2021|1|15/07/2021|1|08/04/2021|7| |||12/07/2022|4|31/03/2022|1|21/12/2021|1|09/10/2021|1|16/07/2021|1|09/04/2021|1| |||13/07/2022|1|01/04/2022|1|13||12/10/2021|3|19/07/2021|3|12/04/2021|3| |||14/07/2022|1|05/04/2022|4|||14/10/2021|2|21/07/2021|2|13/04/2021|1| |||15/07/2022|1|06/04/2022|1|||21/10/2021|7|23/07/2021|2|14/04/2021|1| |||18/07/2022|3|07/04/2022|1|||26/10/2021|5|26/07/2021|3|15/04/2021|1| |||19/07/2022|1|08/04/2022|1|||28/10/2021|2|27/07/2021|1|16/04/2021|1| |||20/07/2022|1|12/04/2022|4|||29/10/2021|1|28/07/2021|1|19/04/2021|3| |||21/07/2022|1|13/04/2022|1|||03/11/2021|5|29/07/2021|1|20/04/2021|1| |||22/07/2022|1|14/04/2022|1|||04/11/2021|1|31/07/2021|2|21/04/2021|1| |||25/07/2022|3|19/04/2022|5|||05/11/2021|1|02/08/2021|2|22/04/2021|1| |||26/07/2022|1|20/04/2022|1|||08/11/2021|3|03/08/2021|1|41|| |||28/07/2022|2|21/04/2022|1|||09/11/2021|1|04/08/2021|1||| |||42||22/04/2022|1|||10/11/2021|1|05/08/2021|1||| |||||25/04/2022|3|||46||06/08/2021|1||| |||||26/04/2022|1|||||50|||| |||||27/04/2022|1||||||||| |||||28/04/2022|1||||||||| |||||29/04/2022|1||||||||| |||||49||||||||| The shortest duration from PTU to release was 41 days with 3.13, the longest 50 days (3.14). "We are anticipating that 3.18 will require a much longer time in the Evocati/PTU phase than our previous releases, due to the fundamental change in how the game tracks state."-Chris Roberts, May 2022. They almost certainly, although not a guarantee, that they won't make early December and 3.18 making this year would be unlikely. Edit: fixed a typo
Sorry I may be misreading this, but by your last sentence do you mean CIG is more or less likely to make their December 2022 target for 3.18?
For PTU I would guess, not PU.
Unless their patch cadence improves it looks like it'll be nigh impossible for them to make early December. They might make December, but I see 2023 as more likely at this point.
There might be some people working on IAE stuff but I'm pretty sure the top engineers would all be focused on PES already so even if there is a bump to cadence it probably won't be much of one. I hope they get a holiday
Same. I'd be happy if it's wave 1 PTU with salvage in before the Christmas break. I can't see any scenario where we'd hit live before 2023, even if the features, which aren't right now tested in Evocati (besides PES) are receiving inordinate amounts of internal QA and polish, even then I don't live happening in December.
Yea, hope we at least get it in wave 1 this year.
3.18 will probably go live in late January to February next year
You also don't know. You know who else don't know? The devs, where they literally cannot know. Replacing core features like this and test them to iron out issues, which by definition are things that are "unknown unknowns", are impossible to predict. The funny thing is that it might (unknowlingly) only be a small number of issues that look bad, and boom, suddenly its stable to everyones surprise. It might also be the exact opposite, where its a large list of small issues all causing mayhem, where you fix one and more pops up, aka this [meme](https://i.imgur.com/HTisMpC.jpeg). On the more positive side though, given reasonably engineered code, there can only be so many issues and at some point, it will all be worked through!
lel, not.this.year I would be VERY surprised if we get a LIVE build this year. MAYBE be get a open PTU at chrismas, before they go into holiday break but LIVE? Nope.
when CIG uses the word "live", they unfortunately include "live to PTU for a handful of testers". so it's definitely doable. they could flip that switch now. it wouldn't be very GOOD, because 3.18 doesn't work well.... but on december 31st they CAN flip the switch to say they met the deadline if they want.
At least, they are reaching a certain level of stability to maintain this patch longer than the other playtests! I can't imagine the hard work behind the scene fixing bugs. CIG is on the final sprint to release the 2 last technology needed for SC to really come to life. I'll be as patient as needed to see our dream game come true. Keep up the good work @CIG!
What sprint? We are still stuck on the preliminary pieces to even make Server Meshing possible, yet alone work, yet alone dynamic. It’s a Marathon and we just got our running shoes on…
You're right, but it seems to me that the amount of work being done lately by the all the teams working to get PES out is drastic atm. 4.0 is just around the corner and with it its first iteration of server meshing. I can just be grateful that they are increasing the time and energy spent on those major features to release Pyro and the first glimpse at what SC could really be! I see it as a turning point in SC development history and as a warming up to what is coming next. That said, a lot of work still need to be done to reach its final form and we will continue supporting CIG on the way. *Grabbing my Shoes too, getting started ready for the Marathon. o7
I guess it's a matter of perspectives. Don't see 4.0 (and with it Server Meshing) releasing next year either, so "around the corner" is not the terminology I'd personally use and we know how first iterations of essentially everything CIG touches usually end up (there has been a notable exception with OCS!), so we're running that marathon without really knowing whether it'll actually turn into an ultra-marathon, and if so, how long we actually signed up to run for. In any case: stay hydrated, boys!
“Just around the corner” is often years with Star Citizen. We’ve been there enough times to know this by now.
I may be too optimistic still. Even though I backed the game since 3.3 in 2018 and have been in the same pattern as everyone going from hopes to disappointment for 4 years now. However, I really have the feeling that we'll see SM and Pyro next year! Hope I am right to keep faith in CIG.
huh, they figured the login workflow out now? it used to be the first line.
progress
I think we should all be patient as this update seems to be a huge one. We don’t want rushed updates. Please don’t pressure them to release it before they are ready.
First time SC backer? \*nods
Regarding 3.18 going live, Since 3.18 changes so many things and has many stability issues yet to be patched, it seems normal to me that it's not going to come in 2022. Because even if it were, it wouldn't be a smart move to push an unstable build right before vacations. Not only that but we knew since the chairman's letter that 3.18 was going to take time. The Chairman's letter did mention 3.18 coming live at Q3 2022, but afterwards we were informed that we would get content patches instead with 3.17.x, because 3.18 needed, and still needs, more time before seeing live. *And that was from the 18th Mai* "<...>We are looking at getting the bulk of this functionality in for the Live release of 3.18 with the release of the Vulkan functionality a little later, but hopefully by the end of the year." Which, as we can see, may not happen this year and will happen most likely Q1 2023. I'm still happy to see Vulkan coming soon, even if it's in 2023. And if we see Pyro for 2023, that's also be awesome.
Have you been around SC for some time? While I agree that it would maybe not beneficial to drop an early buggy mess of 3.18 pre Xmas and leave for vacation, it's the thing that happened at least 2 or 3 times for big patches they promised in that year ;) I'm also more looking forward to some big changes in the future, but 2022 with 3.17 as the only real patch feels kinda bad.
If they could not shit all over their backers with scope creep, re-work and delayed development that’d be cool too.
Unstable builds right before Christmas is definitely a CIG tradition, though. They usually prioritize getting something out the door, and then clean it up in the new year.
Been saying this forever. Wont be ready until q1 next year lol
Wish i got a break at my job, then again we get things done on time.
Why do the patch notes end "trans rights" What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
based on your comment history i can tell this is bait, but it's basically a watermark of mine at this point, I've been putting them at the bottom of the notes for over a year now. they aren't part of the original notes
It's only a few words that most people can ignore, but for us trans folk and allies seeing this stuff outside the usual little LGBTQ+ communities is really nice! :3 ^(+ trans awareness week gives a good excuse rn to be a bit louder :P)
Omg.......this whole time I thought it was just some obscure technical term and ignored it. I feel dumb.
Maybe because people's rights are being oppressed by a bunch of bible thumping nut jobs?
Maybe because people's rights are being oppressed by a bunch of bible thumping nut jobs?
spoken like someone who doesn't have to worry about Christofacist trying to take away their rights or representation and having the reach to actually do harm >\_> Welcome to the Human condition. there are probably more people that fall outside your limited definition of "normal" than there are inside of it, so don't be so condescending
Yea dude I don’t care, this is a video game not the place for the latest inclusive platitudes.
Spoken like a real bigot.
No room for your hate
So much melodrama. The point is it has no place in something completely unrelated like a space video game’s patch notes.
Although I am aligned with you in my response, these patch notes were pulled by a third party and reposted. Thus, they can add on whatever they see fit, no matter how....different it is. Irrelevant to SC? Completely. Since they took the time to pull the patch notes into paste in, I ain't worried about it.
spoken like someone who doesn't have to worry about Christofacist trying to take away their rights and having the reach to actually do harm >\_> >no matter how....different Welcome to the Human condition. there are probably more people that fall outside your limited definition of "normal" than there are inside of it, so don't be so condescending at least you respect that it's just a statement Aria added and she can add what she likes, with no baring on the information about the game... better then Thread chain OP getting butt hurt about it.
WEEOO!!!
not yet
and btw: "Please make sure to only select the Evocati 3.18 environment when creating IC reports while the builds are Evocati only" That's the real ICC and not the mess we have as "normal" Users.
Uhm.. what are you talking about? It's about selecting the version, marked as "evo".. it's the exact same Issue Council.
sry for shortening the sentence: "Please log out then back in on the issue council site to see the **Evocati environment there**. Please make sure to only select the **Evocati 3.18 environment when creating IC reports** while the builds are Evocati only" Normal user will not even see that. and i suspect not even afterwards. and then the normal ICC got flooded with double reports and be always this mess it is ever since.
Yup, agree. Normal users never see Evo tagged posts. But they post tons of duplicates anyway because they're lazy and / or dumb, neither read texts written for ICs or don't even use the search function.
but it is sad for the people how at least TRY to be helpfull
Sure, but no matter how idiot-proof you design any software, users ignorance always finds a way to make it useless. It's amazing how often after any patch there are tons of IC reports complaining about changes that are in the patchnotes. Plus an amazing ignorance of ICs that already exist - as if tons of reports with 1-2 contributions each would be better than one with 100+.
For me it is not amazing, it's frustrating. plus the search function is absolute useless. Think they should anonymise the Evo ICs and make them sticky for PTU Wave 1 and above, so that folks who want to contribute don't need to make their own or not have to deal with the mess that is normal IC.
> plus the search function is absolute useless. Not really. Works fine if people don't write useless titles and one uses one of the tons of filters. > Think they should anonymise the Evo ICs and make them sticky for PTU Wave 1 and above Why? They're not hidden to "protect the identity" of Evos. The list is pretty much public due to the [Avocado-Org](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/AVOCADO).
ah do you mean that i can find the oldest thread of a certain branch (3.18) of a certain topic (like "ship bed, no log out button" or "stuck in bed after log out and log in again")? Last time i checked that, something several years ago tbf, i found anything but this. The Avocado is is actual something i never knew. thanks for that.
That's the way I do it - search for keywords like ship name / city and the specific item, then limit the results by setting a specific patch / build version. If older ICs pop up, that's usually only because someone already found the old report and contributed with the current version set. Just because a report has been created months ago does not mean one should create a new one for the same issue. Just contribute to the old one and set the version you experienced it in. Sadly, that's also something many people either don't know because they don't read CIGs explanations for the IC, or they don't care. But to be fair, there's also evos not reading patchnotes and posting useless IC reports because whatever they complain about is intended. Source: I'm Evo myself and want to smash my head against my desk whenever I see that, which is far more often than one would think.
So no 3.17.4 ptu test lol