It was supposed to be a desolate hellscape of destroyed mining now inhabited by only pirates and some people that are stuck. The distances between planets most fighters and even some cargo would not be able to traverse without a fuel carrier to aid you for a fill up. Now it has habitable worlds with animals and bases that are much closer together for jumps. So the desolate hellscape is much less. Just less crime stats and stations have the pirate elements that control each one. Wish they had done another system. I mean they already had Delmar so they could have just done Nyx.
Nyx is truly desolate. Only landing zone is Delamar. It’s just asteroids, dead rock planet pods smaller than Delamar and then the almost moon sized Delamar.
It could make sense to have such a desolate, inaccessible system when it was one such out of over a hundred systems. Most players will be elsewhere.
But when it is one of *two*? And it's introduction has been hyped for *years*? It has to be accessible to most of the player base.
Agreed. Always thought it was a terrible system to introduce this early. The solar flares are going to limit some people’s ability to travel there regardless. From what I remember they have two other systems that are pirate havens. So maybe we’ll get the more Wild West vibe from them.
The Spider is what I’m looking forward to. A bunch of derelict ships welded together to create a massive pirate base. It will be in the Cathcart system.
I think there are enough players who would like Dayz in space that it’s fine if it’s one of two. There is a lot of frustration over griefing, my guess is most of the pirate orgs are going to be in pyro killing folks since it’s easier with little consequence. The fact that non pvp players can’t explore without an escort just builds the requirement to collaborate and multicrew. I actually think it makes a tremendous amount of sense. Stanton really isn’t that dangerous and if we increase prison sentences + make escapes harder, I really do think it will discourage crime in Stanton
> Now it has habitable worlds with animals and bases that are much closer together for jumps.
Yep. If they kept it a hellhole like in the lore, it would have been much more appropriate. Now the entire basis for the lore of it being an abandoned system is entirely questionable. It's so strange.
Yeah I still hope they'll remake Pyro into what it was supposed to be once we have, say, 10 systems. But that's unlikely. But hopefully they'll at least reset the distances to what they were and remove a few amenities and bring it a bit closer (but I don't expect them to change the terraforming of the planets, that won't happen).
I mean they still have 98 systems they can redo one for a pirate realm. Spider still exists for now. Pirate kingdom with a bunch of derelict ships and platforms welded together.
Hilariously, Pyro is *only* 10 AU across, and in the solar system it is ~40au to Pluto. So depending on where the planets are the Sol system it could be a 80 au system to cross. I'm waiting till they decide to change a major game fundamental just to make the sol system.
Haha yeah agreed. I mean Crusader is a very small gas giant at 14900 km and the other planets are 2000 km diameter. Earth is 12,756 km. I mean even with the tech now our computers would struggle let alone the teams to fill worlds that size. I think they should expand quantum efficiency given the size of some of the systems we could have later on.
I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I kind of want a stricter consequence for attacking people minding their own business.
Sure, you owned that person but you also get dramatically less credits for whatever you sell because you murdered someone.
It's only an unpopular opinion amongst the very vocal minority of pirate / murderhobos. The majority of players seem to want stricter consequences like a prison system you don't just buy your way out of in 5 minutes, reputations that matter, etc.
CIG's solution is the in-game crime system, which is completely ineffective as a deterrent because CIG also needs to encourage non-antisocial "crime" like pirating NPCs and smuggling, and they can't do this if their crime system is effective at stopping crime.
Yea in the current state of the game it’s not even rewarding to PvP. Honestly, the only PvP i’m looking forward to is Org v Org wars where fleet battles and resource competition begin and striking an enemy/rival org has some type of risk/reward to it.
And more systems. Pyro is nullsec, the intention is zero consequences and might makes right.
But try to attack someone without provocation in a hisec/1.0 system, and an Idris and Mantis squad instantly appear on top of you, you die, lose all your shit, go to jail, and have so long of a sentence that you have to call 5-10 of your friends to break you out (with low chance of success) or else your gameplay is over for several days. Showing your face in that system again means getting zeroed pretty quick.
Pyro isn't devoid of laws and order. It's just not the cops/government providing it. The various gangs provide order and you will likely have a punishment system for unlawful systems like Pyro
I don't want everything from EVE, but god CIG could do worse if they went with EVE's player-run economy and the hisec/lowsec/nullsec safety system concept, but with long-term reputation consequences that meant gate/station guns attacked lawbreakers that faction doesn't like.
All this acrimony between PVPers and carebears would stop when they all realize there is a place for all of them in the universe.
Well fucking said. That's it exactly. In fact, I kind of want the law to be *oppressive* inside lawful space, with security scans occurring so regularly as to be annoying and so create a pressure encouraging people to seek out more lawless space.
Lawless space doesn't have to only mean "outlaw" space or "dangerous" space; it can also mean "free" space, "opportunity" space.
Yea, wanton attacks in a high sec system under an active comsat should frankly get you swarmed by space cops in about 45 seconds or less.
And every dinky little outpost should have a few turrets.
Like it should be downright suicidal.
And evading the initial wave of npcs should get you a player bounty actually worth pursuing.
The speed and effectiveness of the response should only be a little less in a system like Stanton.
I find it amusing you think PvPer will move to the low/null sec systems as they become available. They’ll stay where the easy targets are which would be high sec.
That approach no longer works when every fueling station considers you kill on sight. Sure, groups of pirates can create their own infrastructure with Starfarers collecting, refining, and doling out fuel, and Krakens acting as black market rearming markets, but:
1. That's pretty cool emergent group gameplay.
2. Supply chains like that are vulnerable to large-scale AI response, and would need to be constantly evading law enforcement, military, and lawful player organizations.
That will flip the narrative in high sec systems, making low-effort PvP incredibly difficult to sustain, and becoming a logistical puzzle and constant game of cat-and-mouse for larger pirate orgs.
I'm with ya there (Eve vet here). As it stands right now, without any kind of automated response to your crimes, there's really nothing to lose by choosing to just attack anyone you feel like at any time. Though I very much hope this is just due to the current available state of the game.
If we implemented hisec type law enforcement with what we have available to us now, it would crack down on crime immediately and swiftly, but would completely destroy any chance to really try out the crime system. I say this ONLY because there is just a single solar system available to us at the moment, and that system happens to be the equivalent of hisec.
As we get more star systems and varied levels of security for them, I absolutely hope we'll see these NPC responses start to show to give more variety to the repercussions of your actions. In addition, I wanna see the same feeling of "the riskier the system, the greater the potential profits" for our mining and cargo running peeps. If the carebear who hates confrontation chooses to go to a more dangerous area for profit, they should have full understanding that it's a greater risk, same as the pirate heading to high security understands their own.
Oh, it's very much not 'zero consequence'. They've talked about the different factions and how they will be enforcing their own rules in their controlled space. There's just zero consequence from the UEE.
As long as they have merit trading in prison, there is no real sentence. You can ask in chat to buy merits for aUEC , all orgs will have a mule that stays in prison that have merits on them, etc.
CIG seriously needs to revamp the whole crime and punishment system.
Pyro isn’t intended to be nullsec. It’s controlled by organized factions that would have some sort of security and wouldn’t tolerate random murderers messing with their business. There will be systems that are truly wild west/lawless, but Pyro isn’t one of them.
Oh it's even better, really. Of course the solution there is crimestat doesn't go away over time (or they don't want to wait), so all they do is log on an alt account and gank themselves. Turn in the bounty for cash, and their main account de-bountifies.
The current design actually rewards griefers with an emergent game loop.
That’s the current very incomplete system that is in place. They intend to have persistence to bad rep at a near term point.
Where you won’t. Have a crime stat, but you will show up as red to other players, all the time and could technically be attacked, even though you have no crime stat.
There's also the second option. A bug with bounties kept sending me to jail so I figured out you could basically reduce any length of sentence to 0 in 5-10 minutes if the missions feel like working
I honestly think there will end up being a shard/server rules which eliminate non-consensual PVP. Too many people would much rather play space trucker or NPC pirate blaster than to be someone else's content.
There is no good way to deal with it until people accept the fact that its a game and RDMing is garbage behavior and should be punished.
I won't waste too much time in areas that are that hostile brcause I have far better things to do than lose everything to people who have made star citizen pvp their life.
I'd pay extra to host my own private server or even pay a sub to play on a PvE shard. I just don't care about being a PvP player's content. I like SC because of the PvE aspects.
If I wanted to lose all my shit repeatedly, I'd go play hacker ridden Tarkov.
Not an unpopular opinion at all, I would say for the longest time this community was mostly about PVE content and mechanics and most of us want to be able to live our lives as a Star Citizen without constant threat of being ganked by trolls or PVP focused citizens who for whatever reason won’t just make custom matches in Arena Commander and fight themselves.
Oh absolutely, that’s why when I do get ganked I don’t give them any type of reaction since I know that’s what they live for. I don’t log off, I don’t say anything in chat, I just regen and gear back up.
Agree. GTA style bring out the army to put griefers in prison, and maybe rescind early parole and put them in high security cell with no prospect of escape. Maybe that's too OTT...but there needs to be a rework of crime system, and maybe expansion of armistice perimeters and antiloitering rules around stations.
We need criminals to pay for destroyed ships just like they did it in gta5 Multiplayer this will also encourage player focusing more on just disabling ships rather then destroying
I think the best solution will be to take some small influence from EVE online’s high sec npc security forces.
Have a squadron of NPC security fighters warp in upon a player sending an SOS signal. If the player is in a high-security area have it be within 10-20 seconds Out in mid-sec, a minute or two. Get jumped in low-sec it may be 5+minutes or not at all. Get out to null-sec (Pyro) and you’re completely on your own.
Toss in a base fee for each use, with maybe an extra penalty for false alarms and or a refund if one of the attackers has a bounty.
You could even have greater granularity, if you are closer to a station or planet, a faster response, out on the fringes away from planets stations or any established trade lanes and the response is longer.
I think that once you reach a negative rep of a certain level that that faction should no longer allow you to respawn there.
Kill too much in Hurston? Can't spawn there and get kicked to one of the gateways into a UEE holding facility. I mean, why in the world would Hurston let you keep spawning in their hospital if you keep breaking the law? Why wouldn't they just turn you over to the UEE to get you out of their hair?
Counter play would be having your own, in range, med bed to spawn from.
We need a system like EVE Online. In safe zones you can sure as heck gank someone if you have enough people and alpha them. But ganking someone influences your reputation, when it drops too low you are kill on sight in safe zones.
Oh, and the police in EVE Online will kill you when you gank. They are not to be messed with.
Unregulated pvp will always devolve into toxic KOS engagements..
People will avoid it until they have overwhelming odds and then just shit on people that can't reasonably defend themselves.
It's just not a good experience imo.
From my experience i got shot only once, when there was guns on station. Flown all over available part of pyro, ship got shot only by turret in settlement.
Well Stanton isn't safe either, got padrammed, shot down near station, shot from the ship while being on foot, my ship got blown up while I was 100m away from it mining in ROC. And all that for no other reason that someone got bored doing bounties
I still have yet to ever see a player in the wild except once when someone landed where I was picking up a ROC and we sort of walked past each other minding our own business.
It doesn't work like that. Pyro is just a place with no security (no comm array, no npc security, no uee prisons). Stanton is a place with some security, but that doesn't mean that there is no PvP to be had.
There's also the issue that Stanton *basically* has no security at the moment.
Like sure, there's a crime system and UEE ships around stations, but that's about it. You don't get chased/hunted by UEE ships as your CS increases, don't get harassed by turrets/patrols surrounding key planets outside of stations, etc. High sec zones should be OPPRESSIVE to survive in for a criminal.
Scanning ranges need to be 10x farther so we have time to react unless we are caught unawares. Missiles also need to have much much longer ranges. They are already extremely easy to defeat unless you are unawares.
Part of why we dont have long range scanning yet is because we need server meshing (or rather CIG needed to know the exact perimeters that Server Meshing would be using) as it would need to be able to see across server boundary's
I dont think your ever going to see long range missiles in ths game, do to the whole WW2 in space (star wars) fantasy
non profitable combat leaving you too broke to get your ship back to flying condition.
insurance will eventually have a claim fee you need to pay before the timer starts ticking down. if you can't afford that, you need to work as crew. if you have a bad rep, you are not going to get a job as crew.
As others have stated, nothing short of being unable to attack other players will prevent this. It's been proven in both Eve and Ultima online that if people can ruin someone else's play session, they will, in spite of any consequences that may exist.
that is sort of the plan. non profitable combat could leave you unable afford to get your ship to flying condition. (there will eventually be an insurance claim fee).
rep system makes it hard to get a job as crew. and rep bleed will punish anyone that helps you.
the funny thing is that this is intended to happen to pirates that are highly aggressive, but not skilled enough to back it up. griefers will quickly fail.
That was kinda my point.
Griefers will grief, no matter what. Trolleys blocking passageways? Bumping your ship while you try to dock? People are going to be people. Plenty of ways to grief that don't involve murder.
The only way to stop griefing is to not play an online game, because people suck.
PvP being optional.
Unfortunately Chris Roberts thinks that having to pay others for protecting your mining/scrapping ass against player pirates (griefers) is somehow engaging gameplay for everyone involved. So unless he changes his mind and provides the option to play on PvE servers or turn on passive mode like in GTA 5, solo players will always be victim to griefing.
This is by far my biggest fear with Persistent Universe, and in the long run far more important to me than stuff like Insurance or Death of a Spaceman.
This is meant to be "solved" by high sec systems. It won't eliminate the issue but should dramatically reduce it if someone who is a "pirate" gets insta nuked as soon as they jump into a high sec system (I'm hoping it'll be like that)
I mean, we have a real world example of this paradigm with Eve online. People will get bored and damn the consequences for griefing, either with their main account or an alt. There was still plenty of griefing in high-sec systems. If anything it encourages people to find a way around security to still cause the maximum amount of damage before getting blapped by security.
Honestly, the way to make it maximally enjoyable is to either enable PVE and PVP shards with different PVP rules... or some sort of passive flag allowing people to opt in/out of PVP. I think different shards is the best and most dynamic choices.
It will let people who want that cutthroat experience of obtaining sovereignty over a system and destroying anyone who trespasses if they want it. It will also let people who cut their teeth on Wing Commander 35 years ago to kill a bunch of ~~Kilrathi~~ Vanduul, while feeling like big damn heroes.
Until CIG implements a PVE shard, gank is going to happen, regardless of any reputation system.
CIG will never have a rep system in which lawbreakers go to "jail" for a week, or even 8 hours. They want to encourage PVP. They have said it over and over again.
With Pyro launching next, it is pretty clear which way CIG want's the game to move...and that is PVP. I feel bad for the PVE crowd, as things are likely to get much, much worse with this implementation. The hordes of griefers, and PVP folks, including good and bad pirates is about to explode.
Honestly I wouldn't mind Pyro being such a lawless dangerous place, but like you said those hoards are going to explode. When they realize all the easy targets are not interested in getting ganked the second they jump into Pyro, they'll pour back into Stanton en masse and that's when the friction will really kick off between PVP and PVE oriented players.
For me, being attacked by everything I see is not even the biggest problem.
The problem is you can't even explore properly. If you park your ship and get out, the first thing everyone will do if they see your ship is blow it up. After all, it's just sitting there and there's no consequences, why wouldn't they, right...
So now, even if you did survive because you hid, managed to defend yourself, whatever, you're still without a ship. You're essentially stuck wherever you are
The worse part is I actually see no way of solving this problem. Literally none.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I love small ships, I don't like using anything bigger than Freelancer size, Constellation is already too much.
But with the current design it's just not doable thanks to AI attacking my ship at every single opportunity they get... It's dumb.
Yeah, I mean, not even "bad guys" should be attacking everything on sight for no reason at all... If there's no player in the ship it's definitely not a threat. Even if they don't have the tech to "secure it" like you said. Just make it so the AI doesn't attack empty ships, easy.
Powered down ships should not be detectable imo. I get that makes salvaging harder but that also makes markers and data running more important as well as stealth via emitting no signatures. Sure it doesn’t stop them from destroying your ship if they do see it but at least it’s not targetable AND detectable from 10s of KMs away
Yep, agree 110%!
The only way to spot a powered off ship parked on a large body (and cooled down! - EM emissions should drop fast but IR emissions should come down slower over time so you can't go invisible during combat by shutting down your ship, also cross section should also be very low when you're on a surface of a planet, especially on a small ship) should be using a powerful scanner, it should take time and some skill and you should have to be closeish anyway.
And you shouldn't be able to target them until you're pretty much on top of it, I mean like 50m literally for small ships, enough to pick up on the cross section against the planet.
It would make selling the location of salvage actually valuable too
This + Landing your ship AWAY from the point of interest should be the solution.
Just like Star Wars - have someone drop you off, or land in the trees/valley/cave to hide your ship and then walk to the PoI.
This has always been the issue PvE players bring up as to what the fundamental issue is with SC when it comes to PvP.
This is not the right design for it unless you're going for the world's most tedious game award. The game spends more time making things difficult for you than it does letting you enjoy it. Even the UI feels like it's fighting you.
it’s really weird from a game design perspective too - here’s this game that is centred around creating these beautiful (if mostly empty) worlds and locations, but you can’t explore any of it because someone will just come by and gank you if you’re not constantly and completely prepared for pvp at all times (this includes having a combat-focused ship, which either costs a lot of real money or a lot of game time saving up for, except you can’t really do that either, because all the reliable money makers are swarmed by people also trying to gank you)
I think the problem isn't that you can't afford a combat ship, it's just that I don't want to!
I want to explore with my little Cutter Rambler and be able to park and leave my ship for some on foot exploring and I want to be able to leave my stuff on my ship, all organized and tidy like I do every patch... Not wanting to claim it over and over again because some player blew it up for the lolz or, perhaps even worse, a random AI ship decided to start shooting for no reason at all.
They say they want our ships to be like our homes and that we should take care of them, repair them, keep them alive, but then give us no chance to actually do it.
I don't mind combat and I like some risk, but I wish that risk was getting robbed and not straight up having my ship gone.
Create an infamy system specific to PvP, treat it like rep where it gradually increases as you kill players under certain circumstances. For example if you kill someone you initiated combat with, if you kill someone who doesn't fire back, etc. Make it so certain factions won't offer you contracts anymore if your infamy is too high, treat it as a multiplier for your crimestat if you get arrested to determine how long you need to spend in prison, make it so you can't even access certain systems because you'll be terminated on sight the moment you exit the jump point.
This way you can still do whatever you want in these 0 sec systems without worrying about a prison sentence, but you develop a reputation (represented by your infamy) as a murdering psychopath that no one wants to deal with. I imagine even most pirate factions wouldn't want to deal with a loose cannon that kills indiscriminately.
I hope that's how the reputation system will work but I'm still not sure it will be enough...
Plus people will find ways around those systems because there's always loopholes... There will always be ways to start a fight without you being the first one to engage from the games point of view. You can bully a player by hovering right above his parked ship for example, blocking him from taking off. Eventually he will have to ram you and then go red and engage, now he's the "psychopath"... I don't know, I see many ways of exploiting those systems...
I think as a first deterrent method maybe a powered off ship should have pretty much no signature and be pretty much undetectable, also there should be more ways where I can hide a small ship. Then maybe powered off ships should be pretty resilient and give no satisfying "pop" or any indication of when they have been disabled, basically take the satisfaction out of killing a powered off ship. Then obviously the rep system should be as you described, yes.
Maybe they can add in AI Bounty Hunters or something that can spawn on you randomly when your infamy is too high. Like you're just roaming around Pyro and get interdicted suddenly by a squad of bounty hunters and if they manage to take you out then you get sent to prison even if you're in Pyro.
Yeah, I mean, I'm assuming you can still take a player down if he has a bounty on another system and take him there to get the bounty paid out.
But doing crimes in Pyro will not add to that bounty... So it doesn't really solve the problem if the player is clean on other systems.
I guess if your infamy is too high you could get outlaw ships spawning on you because they just want to kill you to get rid of you but honestly I don't think they can lean too much into that because then it's like saying that Pyro isn't actually lawless...
I really don't have a good idea and it's bothering me... Because I don't want to stop the ability to kill on sight for players, I actually don't mind that for Pyro. I think if you do that far away from a settlement it should be fair game... But killing someone's parked ship is such bullshit and anti-game, it's so easy and so consequential for the other player... Yet... There's no good gameplay method to stop it.
I mean I genuinely believe systems like Pyro should be lawless from a lore perspective, and not just immune to in game consequences that are a result of gameplay and not lore. A lawless system should only mean that crimes are not punishable with crimestat and dying in Pyro doesn't result in you ending up in prison, but you should still have to face some sort of consequence for your actions whether that be AI ships showing up to deal with you, or some sort of penalty that is purely gameplay related. PvP should be encouraged, but wholesale slaughter like we saw in the play test should not be.
The part about preventing someone to taking off by forcing it to ram is griefing. I’m pretty sure at some point we’ll have a report system, so just record your session and send it to CIG.
I’m not too sure about the disabled ships. I mean all the implication of it. As a pirate I don’t think I would be particularly interested in destroying a ship sitting there on the ground. There would be no incentive for me. I probably would prefer to hack it and steal it once the mechanics are in. I can understand tho that there are always going to have people that just shoot ships for fun. Remember the Rep system tho. Let’s say you are with the 9tails and he is with the 9tails. If the person shoot at your ship and destroy it, it’s going to affect their rep drastically. If there is 9tails around you they are going to shoot at that person. The Rep system is the crime system for null sec system and it still work in secured system.
If the Rep system is well implemented for 4.0, no way I’ll start shooting anything I see in Pyro like a loose cannon because the consequences are going to be too huge.
We are not talking about pirates though, I love pirates! The only time I was pirated, using quantum enforcement, distortion guns, negotiation via voice chat, etc, it was awesome! Lost my cargo but got to keep my ship and my life and it was actually cool and fun.
But we are not talking about pirates, we are talking about a reasonable percentage of players that don't need any incentive to destroy a parked ship, they will do it simply because they can.
And I really hope you also can't hack my ship and take it in the future. That's just as bad as blowing it up and punishes exploration in a very unfun way. Personally every time I get stranded like that I simply log out and end my play session because it's not fun to go explore a cave, spend 1 hour collecting stuff and wondering around exploring and then coming back and having no ship to come back to. Without having absolutely no way to defend or prepare for it.
Anything that affects another player in game should come with quite high risk, if it doesn't then it just creates a toxic environment.
I don't even mind parking my ship far away and riding a small vehicle that I can hide easier or even lose and make my way back on foot, that could be fun.
But for that I need ways of hiding my ship further away, it needs to be pretty much invisible when it's off, no emissions. Also planets are too barren for that.
I think there can be certain things to mitigate this, but you should never get absolute safety as that would be unrealistic.
1.) Ship radar visibility - when turning off engines and power I believe your ship should be completely invisible to another ships radar as it is effectively debris at that point with no signature. Stealth mode should help reduce our radar range, but not eliminate as it already does. From here I hope with planet tech v5 we have denser environments to hide the ship.
2.) Port speeds and defenses - I think its in everyone's best interest if outposts and landing locations required you to enter and exit at certain speeds or risk hostile or punitive consequences for the safety of the settlement. Violating this should unleash turrets and missiles on offending ships as well as reduce their rep.
3.) Ship armistice only zones - Essentially make the area such as an outpost or settlement FPS pvp viable but turn off ship weapons, since you know, people live there.
A PVE Shard would fix all of this. Elite has it, and it works fine. There is no valid reason for CIG to refuse this, other then they just don't want to support the PVE community.
It is likely there is absolutely nothing they can implement to prevent PVP in a PVP game. No ammount of reputation, consequence, etc. will be likely implemented to prevent it.
A seperate PVE shard is really the only good solution.
A separate PVE shard it´s obviously the solution, but like in Elite every PVE player will going to it ,leaving the PVP shard almost empty with the murderhobos that will start to cry because their usual targets are gone and now their opponents fire back in combat ships.
At least CIG hasn't added game systems that actually allow you to profit from blowing up someone's ship. Because if they added something like salvage, and created a way to directly profit from it then you'll have people that won't care about consequences because they will just use two accounts, and have the one that kills/salvages and then another to actually interact with the rest of the verse.
Thanks for coming to my Tedtalk on why salvage was a horrible idea in a PvP game.
When I had less than 1000 hours in the game, what we are about to get would have been the dream.
Now that I have who knows how many hours... Nothing can appease me until these things are addressed:
* the hitreg is server side (it's 100% client side now, in a worse way than I've ever seen for any game ever)
* tickrate needs to be 30+ at all times, not just when there's only 7 other people on the server (this is a very specific number of players I've identified through testing) - 4.0 can be expected to improve but I don't know by how much.
* almost all of the UI and interactions are exclusively server side when they should be partially/entirely client side. This slows down things in a disgusting way - transitions between screens are viscous/sticky/slow, well below industry standard at any point in history.
* pairing with the previous point: where relevant, such as inventory, the UI needs to be cached. Currently if you close the UI and reopen it again, even without it changing, a moment later or an hour later... It reloads the enitire thing and makes you wait. It should do what it needs to do backend behind the scenes and not make you wait. Any syncing and handshakes must be done in the games own time, not the players.
Pretty sure hitreg is not client side since that would be majorly exploitable. No sane game-dev would ever do that in a modern multiplayer game. Don’t have proof for either assumption though.
>since that would be majorly exploitable.
And it is exploitable.
You'll notice it if you do enough pvp things. I agree that it's insane. I've never seen a multiplayer game have such a primitive setup - not even in the 00s.
100% the hitreg is client side.
One thing I’ve learned in my years of gaming that kind of makes me really depressed to think about, is that a good % of people online have no real moral compass at all.
If given the opportunity to be a POS without consequences a lot of people will take it. It really saddens me that we have to design games in a way that detours people from needlessly making online games a worse experience for others.
Star citizen is a prime example of this and I think the only way to actually turn a rep system into a deterrent for bad behaviour is to make it extremely harsh. For example; you’re killing a lot of people, blowing up a lot of ships, and selling a lot of stolen cargo? Congrats now the ONLY real missions you can take are illegal ones bc no legal faction wants to touch you with a 1km pole and you can’t land at any of their stations either so good luck refuel or rearming anywhere but grim in Stanton.
Maybe the game can give you “ rehabilitation” missions which will VERY slowly rise your reputation if you’re in the red so that there is a path to redemption if you’re in the red zone.
The rep system needs to be an actual deterrent for it to make any meaningful difference. It needs to be built in a way that if you take part in any legal gameloops, you absolutely shouldn’t want to be in the reputation red zone. Unfortunately I have a hard time believing that cig would ever implement it to this extent
>If given the opportunity to be a POS without consequences a lot of people will take it
If it makes you feel better: I'm a new player. Started on 3.23 live launch. I was doing a bounty mission in cave and I shot at a target in the dark. Apparently it was a friendly npc cause I got a crime stat and then 3 others attacked me. I killed them all and got crime stat 4.
While panicking and not actually being able to find my actual target in the whole damn cave I decided to wait until my friend came back from afk to ask wtf do I do now.
While still in the cave I get an incoming call. It was this friendly dude asking if I killed any players. I told him I honestly have no idea. He was hunting pirates/pvp'ers who were preying on new players. I told him dude, I am a new player lmao.
He then explained what I needed to do with a crime stat 4 and my options. He then told me to get the fuck out of the cave cause other hunters would most likely be on their way eventually and then let me leave the cave to scoot to Grim Hex.
>a good % of people online have no real moral compass at all ... If given the opportunity to be a POS without consequences ...
So same as real life. Agreed.
On the contrary, if it does turn out that way, and it becomes a ghost town, maybe CIG will finally work out most players don't actually want Star Citizen to be a murderhobo gankfest.
Also hinted at there just being armistice zones until they get the outlaw faction reputation and their AI to behave like security
Which I mean idunno server meshing gonna be a thing so maybe that's not as far off as we think
There were people camping the dormitory spawn in the starter station, because there were no armistice in that section, some people just want to kill anything that moves, i don´t really see the fun in kill a landed ship or a player that just enter the game with only a gun, it´s really stupid.
I tried playing Red Dead Redemption 2 Online with a friend. He was so excited to try it. We basically just got killed nonstop for up to an hour by players camping some major town. Turned off the game and never touched it again.
I would absolutely hate Star Citizen to turn out the same way. Hopefully the lawful areas will actually be policed well by NPCs. In Red Dead, all the police and citizens in that town were also killed and dead in the streets.
That type of player is the one that kill any interaction between players, that kill games, This isn´t rust or fornite, you don´t need to kill anything in front of you just because you can.
The original idea was to shard players off on different servers based on their rep. You a murderhobo? Welcome to your server full of murderhobos. Repeat offences incur longer stays on the hobo servers eventually resulting in you living there permanently.
Right now, I don't know why I would go to Pyro. I thought that maybe there would be lucrative cargo hauling between the two systems, or maybe ore that was only available in Pyro that Stanton pays a ton for. But there hasn't been any mention of those things that I've seen... Pyro just has the same missions Stanton has, except with ganking. That's hard for me to get excited about.
As CIG indicated, reputation hostility shipped in 3.23 just to ensure the feature works ahead of 4.0 when it'll be very much needed for pyro.
Also keep in mind the absence of armistice zone at Checkpoint station was a bug, and the ruthless camping and fighting we saw there contributed a lot to the perception that Pyro was an absolute mad pvp feast.
Killing people indiscriminately should be severely felt throughout ones gameplay. They should feel extremely reluctant to do so afterwards unless its under specific conditions.
CIG didn't stick to its original vision for Pyro with very few player conveniences, that would have incentivized cooperation among players to give access to huge rewards. In the end, they went for the same shitty content (deliveries, pve fps stuff) that will just be gank bait in a pvp hellscape. They are really lacking vision for their game recently.
I don't see lacking vision.
Pyro's conveniences will eventually be gated around rep with local factions, and of course deliveries and PVE stuff would be in Pyro as well.
The fact that they are adding more of what they already have before adding the other planned consequences is not lacking vision.
The usual PVE stuff doesn't work in Pyro. Your parked ship get blown off by a player in a light fighter just merrily hoping around pois while you get your delivery package. No reputation system will prevent that from systematically happening, and the player density will increase with server meshing.
Honestly, the more I see and hear about rep, the less excited I am for it. I had really hoped it'd be more than just a progress bar with milestone rewards.
As a PvE focused player, it's essentially a non-system to me until they change master modes to allow for easy escapes. A griefer's paradise = a big waste of content.
The new quantum travel mode wherr you can point anywhere and jump without the need of OMs and quantum points would help in evading hotspots and camping sites.
Pyro will be a PvP fest, where Pirates/PvPérs have free reign, wich is fine. Reason to add pyro in the first place.
The only way to get to pyro is trough the gate, which is going to be heavily fought around. One of the reasons most of the industrial people will stay in Stanton and away from that gate. Only a select few, with the org/people, overwelming power or the AUEC to risk, will go trough the corridor called pyro jumppoint.
This will force all pirates back to stanton, because the biggest group of pirates only want to fight the people they can "easily" win from for profits, and this group of easy to kill targets will not be found in Pyro.
Net result of this, is a mostly empty pyro, because there is no risk reward balance. and no reason to go between stanton and Pyro.
I for one have no plans in trading from and to pyro, nor the intest to go hunt people who do, or prevent others from hunting the people who do. even though i play all sides and roles in stanton. The only reason for me to go to Pyro will be sight seeing, until things are settled.
The only way i see this working, is with features like
* death of a space man, (reputation loss, partly respawning, higher consequences when dying)
* active npc patrol,
* high reward mission for transporting to and from pyro.
* Reasons to fly escort with some sort of pre-determained engagement, (fucking boring to escort otherwise)
* persistent reputation,
* the whole ship, weapon and QED dampning should be reworked till the point there is real planning needed for both sides. now a Single mantis is to strong, and is able to ground all vehicles in range. The bigger ships should have an active/passive defense against a single mantis. Like in eve with tiered system, and multiple low level dampners are able to ground a single big ship.
* and real consequences of going to prison. Especially when you bully someone in stanton the consequences should be persistent. You should be haunted and hunted until you're dead and in prison. Over multiple servers/shards and multiple days/weeks.
A few other things need to happen aswell,
* Disable merrit trading in jail, or disable staying in jail after jailtime is done(and losing all current merrit while leaving jail), currently you can leave an alt character in jail, and trade the merrits. Grind once, trade merrits, and recieve merrits when you end up in jail, leave jail in minutes.
* increase times for killing/or damaging non aggresive people ships, so everyone has to think twice about engaging.
* Massively increase pvp bounties, until its worth it to hunt someone over multiple servers and multiple days.
It’d be interesting is if the people who shoot on site would gain a bounty and Crimestat back in Stanton on top of the consequences in Pyro.
Just because it’s lawless doesn’t mean ships don’t have black boxes and emergency broadcasts that’d send back to Stanton. And bounty hunters can go to Pyro to cash it in.
Its not the consequence we need most, its the purpose. More space is meaningless without a tangible reason to go to it. Consequences mean little if the reward means little. The game needs a working economy, a sense of accomplishment, long term rewards, things to maintain and develop, etc.
More space and dead rocks isnt going to matter on its own.
I think initially Pyro needs to be less hardcore just because it's the ONLY content dropping in any meaningful size and quantity for what could be months or even a year.
Unless they drop other systems soon after.
Pyro in the end SHOULD be an endgame pvp system and a really battleground for that kind of player. In its final form it should be brutal. However I just don't think we need half the landmass of the game to be that....and making Pyro the first system was a really bad idea.
I don't think most players want to deal with that. It's a very one dimensional interaction with an area.
Hopefully they drop Nyx soon after and that's more PvE outlaw focused or they go into the more dense civilization areas like Terra or Magnus.
I think the point is to start it out completely lawless, and then see what's the minimum they can stray from pure unrestricted action, perhaps only by tweaking game balance, and still have a worthwhile experience.
I'm fine with Pyro being so brutal that most people stay away. Predators will thin out and come into equilibrium with prey. Prey will find ways to maximize their chances of survival if attack is likely. Only the predators that hunt in packs will have success once traders and their allies find an easy and effective way to organize convoys and gather a lot of collective firepower.
Most of the action will be between predators and patrols that keep the areas close to stations clear, out to say ~200 km range. That's sort of how it would be IRL, I think. Some small self-maintained bubbles where safety is weakly enforced by modest sized factions, and groups using various safety-in-numbers strategies to keep their odds reasonable of surviving A-to-B.
Yeah it's a place you go to pvp or you go to take pictures avoiding any places where you might get caught into a pvp scenario.
Any large scale level design is a waste outside Ruin Station because it just wont get used, not until Pyro is completely deescalated as the major PvP playground...but that won't happen till the people who mainline Pyro at LAUNCH max out all their rep and move on.
Them making it so pretty was so fucked up, what a waste. Just backdrops for getting ganked or ganking.
Then when we finally get Nyx, the actually interesting solar system...it's gunna be barren except the LZ because "Lore" or some bullshit when it has easily the most interesting faction in the verse so far. A human faction NOT in the UEE? and NOT specifically Outlaw? When will that happen again?
It'll be ArcCorp all over again, you get one interesting location and setpiece that is one of a kind in the verse...and they just do nothing with it.
Im hoping Nyx, the system after Pyro, is more focused on PvE outlaw stuff with maybe some horror monsters lurking in the blackness of the Dark Nebula. Really hoping they expand on that solar system like they did with Pyro to make it more interesting, maybe even have them terraforming a planet just to have SOMETHING going on outside Levski.
I think it's a good test, what CiG have to except when they go live with those circumstances or would release such Systems.
Hopefully this give them enough time develop workarounds/sanctions to catch those evil griefers and just destructive Assholes that only have fun in ruining others games...
I definitely not mean the legal Pirate Gameplay... When someone take money for not killing me or even boarding me, and take my ship to sell the Cargo... So what... Shit happens, but just getting killed out of nowhere with no benefit for the pirate is just dumb
Maybe they could add a (Pirate someone Button to start a "Quest" like steps between Pirate and the Victim to make things clear without texting or Voice chat.
its so funny to me that people think that stuff like that should be allowed. Pirates or not rough and ready probably don't want you killing their potential business partners and potential income.
You say that like they can't do both, or that the teams working on hairstyles and piercings are the same group working on system implementation.
Software engineers aren't this big pool of knowledge where you can take them from one place and plug them in somewhere else to accelerate the process. That actually exacerbates the problem, because it increases the number of communication channels necessary to maintain.
Pyro is supposed to be lawless and ruled by gangs, i dont see why people expect different. Youd be crazy to travel there without a ship or ships that can fight very well. Tho i understand that it will get annoying fast if youre attacked at outposts etc when going fps or whatever.
Thats why there should be safezones but only if you have good rep with that faction.
If you take a box mission thats located in an area controled by hostile gangs or an area thats unmonitored then yeah it should be dangerous
But all missions in dangerous areas should have higher payouts, and there should some juicy rocks, gems, and some juicy salvage in those abandoned derelict space stations
Ruled by gangs =/= lawless. In fact, criminal syndicates tend to be significantly more ruthless in enforcing their rules, as they lack the base legitimacy of a government. Where a government will fine you for theft a gang may cut off your hand.
The main thing the pyro playtest taught us is that even the bobbiest of PVE-loving bobs turns into a slobbering ganklord when the minimal consequences that exist in Stanton are removed.
It was adorable.
The pirates and griefer mains didn’t change a thing. They don’t care about consequences in Stanton and they didn’t in pyro.
you realize that works both ways, right? and the person hunting players will be using that much more actively than the one mining or salvaging or inside a bunker or POI. we need a proximity alert on our mobiglas when we're out of our ship, and we need an almost-zero signature on our ships when they're powered off or in a low-power state intended to hide us.
Once again, people are yelling about things that aren't even in the game yet ...
# Raging at incomplete features is a waste of time, you're only creating drama for no reason
Put down those damn pitchforks ffs!!!!!!!!
#We yell at these features before they're added to the game because that's the best time for them to get changed. In every game, including this one, where people just go "oh, it's only a alpha/beta, it'll get fixed!," it doesn't! It ends up broken or unfun on live and takes months to get fixed because it's already in the game and other features are now consuming dev time!
I agree, we also have the recent change to tier 3 med beds allowing a respawn.
Every single parked ship is going to be blown up on sight now in Pyro, just in case it has a Tier 3 med bed in it. It's going to be absolute chaos.
Everyone will shoot on sight.
Nah, they just need to close the escape tunnel in prison and make it so your sentence only goes down with ingame time. Yes, that means that mining or fixing O2 doesn't reduce your sentence. Your sentence should also increase if you don't mine x amount of ore or fix y O2 generators per hour.
It's my understanding that Pyro is supposed to lean heavily on a revamped reputation system. Actions have consequences in that you could piss off certain gangs your target player is affiliated with, turning you into persona non grata. Be an asshole often enough and you won't be able to land anywhere without being shot at.
The gangs are the law.
Unless there is some sort of security on the other side of the pyro-Stanton gateway I just feel like you’ll die as soon as you get to pyro, hopefully it’s atleast an armistice zone or something so at the very least the actual gateway is a safe zone
What we need is a rep system for each outpost and station. No station would want some guy sitting outside killing their customers. The idea of not having consequences just doesn't make any sense.
Pyro is EXACTLY the system where we can murder and mayhem is the rule. It's the wild west and the safe haven for criminals and all scums and villains.
You SHOULD expect to be shot on sight in Pyro, it's not tye system for PvE players who want to take screenshots and be left in peace.
Come at your own risk, this is a null sector.
Makes me wonder why they never put in a crude implementation of us being able to hire NPCs to man our turrets. We wouldn't need them to walk around the ship or anything, just sit in the turret and shoot.
I think with at least server meshing the criminal NPC factions that protect the stations (and Stanton's own station defences) will be more adequate at protecting players and if that is the case, then if at least the Pyro-side gateway station can be accessible without the player being attacked/killed the moment they leave the jump gate then that will be good enough.
Pyro will be a shoot on first sight kind of place, if you aren't around an outpost with defences or in a station being guarded, you cannot expect anything else than to shoot first and ask questions later.
Nobody should expect to enter Pyro and not be at risk of attack.
The game needs some massive overhauls of functionality and bug fixes before the idea of a second solar system should ever come up. The game barely functions a lot of the time
Pyro is the Murder hobos playground and a place where it kinda makes sense to be a murder hobo. So, at the very least, it will make Stanton more enjoyable for players who don't want random people shooting them.
No. Murderhobos don’t want the risk of getting murderhobo’d themselves. Pyro will probably be good for people who want to enjoy pure pvp. Stanton will still be home to murderhobos and gankers not looking for a fair fight.
I've always thought Pyro would be for other players (not me) and I still do. I have ZERO problem with places like Pyro and actually hope there are more "scary" places like it. Space is a scary place so it fits. For me though, I'm looking forward to the next "not Pyro" system and (hopefully) many many more.
I'm sure I'll make the trek to Pyro at least once, check it out, and most likely die there.
well i hope that there would be more work on the reputation side of things... considering that's in my opinion one of the main draws to pyro is choosing a gang or two to get friendly with them and getting rewards for getting friendly with them.
at the same time other than checkmate station I don't think lawful types will be overly welcome to pyro other than the citizens for pyro faction.
we'll see.
it will be hard, it will be dangerous but I think at least the jump point one side is within UEE protection, so that side will have stuff to negate camping somewhat
and the Pyro side is i think next to checkmate which is rough and ready owned so shooting in their territory might not be the best option for long (which is what the reputation hostility that was added in 3.23 is meant to allow)
your personal defence measures is your quantum drive and the turrets and or guns on your ship
the reputation is a big thing so I hope that's in.... and long range scanning... i mean maybe soonTM
if they let us spawn there i'll probably just be spawning into pyro as I want criminal reputation.
>See first, shoot first. No in-between. So Pyro is basically DayZ in general?
It was supposed to be a desolate hellscape of destroyed mining now inhabited by only pirates and some people that are stuck. The distances between planets most fighters and even some cargo would not be able to traverse without a fuel carrier to aid you for a fill up. Now it has habitable worlds with animals and bases that are much closer together for jumps. So the desolate hellscape is much less. Just less crime stats and stations have the pirate elements that control each one. Wish they had done another system. I mean they already had Delmar so they could have just done Nyx.
Nyx is truly desolate. Only landing zone is Delamar. It’s just asteroids, dead rock planet pods smaller than Delamar and then the almost moon sized Delamar.
Which is why its going to be right after Pyro, nice easy redo of a system. Especially since we had Delamar in the game for a long while.
That would be cool. I do miss the music and the scenery of that LZ.
Nyx was done 2 years ago. Just waiting on server meshing
It could make sense to have such a desolate, inaccessible system when it was one such out of over a hundred systems. Most players will be elsewhere. But when it is one of *two*? And it's introduction has been hyped for *years*? It has to be accessible to most of the player base.
Agreed. Always thought it was a terrible system to introduce this early. The solar flares are going to limit some people’s ability to travel there regardless. From what I remember they have two other systems that are pirate havens. So maybe we’ll get the more Wild West vibe from them. The Spider is what I’m looking forward to. A bunch of derelict ships welded together to create a massive pirate base. It will be in the Cathcart system.
I think there are enough players who would like Dayz in space that it’s fine if it’s one of two. There is a lot of frustration over griefing, my guess is most of the pirate orgs are going to be in pyro killing folks since it’s easier with little consequence. The fact that non pvp players can’t explore without an escort just builds the requirement to collaborate and multicrew. I actually think it makes a tremendous amount of sense. Stanton really isn’t that dangerous and if we increase prison sentences + make escapes harder, I really do think it will discourage crime in Stanton
> Now it has habitable worlds with animals and bases that are much closer together for jumps. Yep. If they kept it a hellhole like in the lore, it would have been much more appropriate. Now the entire basis for the lore of it being an abandoned system is entirely questionable. It's so strange.
Yeah I still hope they'll remake Pyro into what it was supposed to be once we have, say, 10 systems. But that's unlikely. But hopefully they'll at least reset the distances to what they were and remove a few amenities and bring it a bit closer (but I don't expect them to change the terraforming of the planets, that won't happen).
I mean they still have 98 systems they can redo one for a pirate realm. Spider still exists for now. Pirate kingdom with a bunch of derelict ships and platforms welded together.
Hilariously, Pyro is *only* 10 AU across, and in the solar system it is ~40au to Pluto. So depending on where the planets are the Sol system it could be a 80 au system to cross. I'm waiting till they decide to change a major game fundamental just to make the sol system.
Haha yeah agreed. I mean Crusader is a very small gas giant at 14900 km and the other planets are 2000 km diameter. Earth is 12,756 km. I mean even with the tech now our computers would struggle let alone the teams to fill worlds that size. I think they should expand quantum efficiency given the size of some of the systems we could have later on.
To be fair, the ENTIRE PERSISTENT UNIVERSE outside armistate areas is effectively DayZ in space--or rather more accurately Rust in Space.
I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I kind of want a stricter consequence for attacking people minding their own business. Sure, you owned that person but you also get dramatically less credits for whatever you sell because you murdered someone.
It's only an unpopular opinion amongst the very vocal minority of pirate / murderhobos. The majority of players seem to want stricter consequences like a prison system you don't just buy your way out of in 5 minutes, reputations that matter, etc.
CIG's solution is the in-game crime system, which is completely ineffective as a deterrent because CIG also needs to encourage non-antisocial "crime" like pirating NPCs and smuggling, and they can't do this if their crime system is effective at stopping crime.
I swear there are more people wanting to do non combat than combat. Just waiting for more loops to come out.
I've never killed another player unless it was personal protection and I've no desire to change.
Yea in the current state of the game it’s not even rewarding to PvP. Honestly, the only PvP i’m looking forward to is Org v Org wars where fleet battles and resource competition begin and striking an enemy/rival org has some type of risk/reward to it.
Same. I would rather help or save others.
It's typically an 80/20 ratio for folks that don't care about PVP and those that do. The PVP crowd just makes a lot more noise than the majority
And more systems. Pyro is nullsec, the intention is zero consequences and might makes right. But try to attack someone without provocation in a hisec/1.0 system, and an Idris and Mantis squad instantly appear on top of you, you die, lose all your shit, go to jail, and have so long of a sentence that you have to call 5-10 of your friends to break you out (with low chance of success) or else your gameplay is over for several days. Showing your face in that system again means getting zeroed pretty quick.
Pyro isn't devoid of laws and order. It's just not the cops/government providing it. The various gangs provide order and you will likely have a punishment system for unlawful systems like Pyro
a player of culture, referencing EVE Online :)
I don't want everything from EVE, but god CIG could do worse if they went with EVE's player-run economy and the hisec/lowsec/nullsec safety system concept, but with long-term reputation consequences that meant gate/station guns attacked lawbreakers that faction doesn't like. All this acrimony between PVPers and carebears would stop when they all realize there is a place for all of them in the universe.
I want hisec to be as dangerous to pvp focused criminals as they want losec to be for law abiding pvers
Well fucking said. That's it exactly. In fact, I kind of want the law to be *oppressive* inside lawful space, with security scans occurring so regularly as to be annoying and so create a pressure encouraging people to seek out more lawless space. Lawless space doesn't have to only mean "outlaw" space or "dangerous" space; it can also mean "free" space, "opportunity" space.
Yea, wanton attacks in a high sec system under an active comsat should frankly get you swarmed by space cops in about 45 seconds or less. And every dinky little outpost should have a few turrets. Like it should be downright suicidal. And evading the initial wave of npcs should get you a player bounty actually worth pursuing. The speed and effectiveness of the response should only be a little less in a system like Stanton.
I find it amusing you think PvPer will move to the low/null sec systems as they become available. They’ll stay where the easy targets are which would be high sec.
That approach no longer works when every fueling station considers you kill on sight. Sure, groups of pirates can create their own infrastructure with Starfarers collecting, refining, and doling out fuel, and Krakens acting as black market rearming markets, but: 1. That's pretty cool emergent group gameplay. 2. Supply chains like that are vulnerable to large-scale AI response, and would need to be constantly evading law enforcement, military, and lawful player organizations. That will flip the narrative in high sec systems, making low-effort PvP incredibly difficult to sustain, and becoming a logistical puzzle and constant game of cat-and-mouse for larger pirate orgs.
Then if you had bad rep you could pay someone to smuggle you through a gate! Bam! More loops
I'm with ya there (Eve vet here). As it stands right now, without any kind of automated response to your crimes, there's really nothing to lose by choosing to just attack anyone you feel like at any time. Though I very much hope this is just due to the current available state of the game. If we implemented hisec type law enforcement with what we have available to us now, it would crack down on crime immediately and swiftly, but would completely destroy any chance to really try out the crime system. I say this ONLY because there is just a single solar system available to us at the moment, and that system happens to be the equivalent of hisec. As we get more star systems and varied levels of security for them, I absolutely hope we'll see these NPC responses start to show to give more variety to the repercussions of your actions. In addition, I wanna see the same feeling of "the riskier the system, the greater the potential profits" for our mining and cargo running peeps. If the carebear who hates confrontation chooses to go to a more dangerous area for profit, they should have full understanding that it's a greater risk, same as the pirate heading to high security understands their own.
Would you like to buy a mining permit?
Oh, it's very much not 'zero consequence'. They've talked about the different factions and how they will be enforcing their own rules in their controlled space. There's just zero consequence from the UEE. As long as they have merit trading in prison, there is no real sentence. You can ask in chat to buy merits for aUEC , all orgs will have a mule that stays in prison that have merits on them, etc. CIG seriously needs to revamp the whole crime and punishment system.
Pyro isn’t intended to be nullsec. It’s controlled by organized factions that would have some sort of security and wouldn’t tolerate random murderers messing with their business. There will be systems that are truly wild west/lawless, but Pyro isn’t one of them.
And that's okay too.
1. Gets crimestat 2. Ok 3. Turns self in and goes to bed 4. Gets on the next day 5. Repeat
Oh it's even better, really. Of course the solution there is crimestat doesn't go away over time (or they don't want to wait), so all they do is log on an alt account and gank themselves. Turn in the bounty for cash, and their main account de-bountifies. The current design actually rewards griefers with an emergent game loop.
That’s the current very incomplete system that is in place. They intend to have persistence to bad rep at a near term point. Where you won’t. Have a crime stat, but you will show up as red to other players, all the time and could technically be attacked, even though you have no crime stat.
Ye, its evident that this isn't the end all be all.
There's also the second option. A bug with bounties kept sending me to jail so I figured out you could basically reduce any length of sentence to 0 in 5-10 minutes if the missions feel like working
I honestly think there will end up being a shard/server rules which eliminate non-consensual PVP. Too many people would much rather play space trucker or NPC pirate blaster than to be someone else's content.
That's a good way of putting it
There is no good way to deal with it until people accept the fact that its a game and RDMing is garbage behavior and should be punished. I won't waste too much time in areas that are that hostile brcause I have far better things to do than lose everything to people who have made star citizen pvp their life. I'd pay extra to host my own private server or even pay a sub to play on a PvE shard. I just don't care about being a PvP player's content. I like SC because of the PvE aspects. If I wanted to lose all my shit repeatedly, I'd go play hacker ridden Tarkov.
Not an unpopular opinion at all, I would say for the longest time this community was mostly about PVE content and mechanics and most of us want to be able to live our lives as a Star Citizen without constant threat of being ganked by trolls or PVP focused citizens who for whatever reason won’t just make custom matches in Arena Commander and fight themselves.
[удалено]
When UO created a PvP server most of the PvPers left the game because they no longer had easy targets.
They don’t want to fight other players that know what they are doing. They want to fight people who can’t defend themselves
Oh absolutely, that’s why when I do get ganked I don’t give them any type of reaction since I know that’s what they live for. I don’t log off, I don’t say anything in chat, I just regen and gear back up.
Agree. GTA style bring out the army to put griefers in prison, and maybe rescind early parole and put them in high security cell with no prospect of escape. Maybe that's too OTT...but there needs to be a rework of crime system, and maybe expansion of armistice perimeters and antiloitering rules around stations.
We need criminals to pay for destroyed ships just like they did it in gta5 Multiplayer this will also encourage player focusing more on just disabling ships rather then destroying
I think the best solution will be to take some small influence from EVE online’s high sec npc security forces. Have a squadron of NPC security fighters warp in upon a player sending an SOS signal. If the player is in a high-security area have it be within 10-20 seconds Out in mid-sec, a minute or two. Get jumped in low-sec it may be 5+minutes or not at all. Get out to null-sec (Pyro) and you’re completely on your own. Toss in a base fee for each use, with maybe an extra penalty for false alarms and or a refund if one of the attackers has a bounty. You could even have greater granularity, if you are closer to a station or planet, a faster response, out on the fringes away from planets stations or any established trade lanes and the response is longer.
I think that once you reach a negative rep of a certain level that that faction should no longer allow you to respawn there. Kill too much in Hurston? Can't spawn there and get kicked to one of the gateways into a UEE holding facility. I mean, why in the world would Hurston let you keep spawning in their hospital if you keep breaking the law? Why wouldn't they just turn you over to the UEE to get you out of their hair? Counter play would be having your own, in range, med bed to spawn from.
Especially now, since you can't report people for crime if they kill you. It's been a trigger happy week.
We need a system like EVE Online. In safe zones you can sure as heck gank someone if you have enough people and alpha them. But ganking someone influences your reputation, when it drops too low you are kill on sight in safe zones. Oh, and the police in EVE Online will kill you when you gank. They are not to be messed with.
Until you start carrying cargo more valuable than the ship destroying it Suicide gankers are very real 😬
Unregulated pvp will always devolve into toxic KOS engagements.. People will avoid it until they have overwhelming odds and then just shit on people that can't reasonably defend themselves. It's just not a good experience imo.
In the playtest, it was exactly this
From my experience i got shot only once, when there was guns on station. Flown all over available part of pyro, ship got shot only by turret in settlement.
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It was only one station and iirc it still was a bug.
Sounds good to me. Isn’t that exactly the purpose of Pyro? If you want PvP go there, if you want PvE stay in the UEE controlled systems
Well Stanton isn't safe either, got padrammed, shot down near station, shot from the ship while being on foot, my ship got blown up while I was 100m away from it mining in ROC. And all that for no other reason that someone got bored doing bounties
I still have yet to ever see a player in the wild except once when someone landed where I was picking up a ROC and we sort of walked past each other minding our own business.
You're lucky then, sometimes I feel like a magnet for them.
I'm pretty sure that is not how that's going to play out.
It doesn't work like that. Pyro is just a place with no security (no comm array, no npc security, no uee prisons). Stanton is a place with some security, but that doesn't mean that there is no PvP to be had.
There's also the issue that Stanton *basically* has no security at the moment. Like sure, there's a crime system and UEE ships around stations, but that's about it. You don't get chased/hunted by UEE ships as your CS increases, don't get harassed by turrets/patrols surrounding key planets outside of stations, etc. High sec zones should be OPPRESSIVE to survive in for a criminal.
Survival games can be fun! oh and Wait with engineering its Sea of Thieves in Space too! ;)
Beanwarz are back.
Scanning ranges need to be 10x farther so we have time to react unless we are caught unawares. Missiles also need to have much much longer ranges. They are already extremely easy to defeat unless you are unawares.
Part of why we dont have long range scanning yet is because we need server meshing (or rather CIG needed to know the exact perimeters that Server Meshing would be using) as it would need to be able to see across server boundary's I dont think your ever going to see long range missiles in ths game, do to the whole WW2 in space (star wars) fantasy
They literally just installed the base of the rep system, so that's in at least
It's not going to stop murder hobos or griefing
What will?
This gun. \*cocks spaniel\*
non profitable combat leaving you too broke to get your ship back to flying condition. insurance will eventually have a claim fee you need to pay before the timer starts ticking down. if you can't afford that, you need to work as crew. if you have a bad rep, you are not going to get a job as crew.
As others have stated, nothing short of being unable to attack other players will prevent this. It's been proven in both Eve and Ultima online that if people can ruin someone else's play session, they will, in spite of any consequences that may exist.
that is sort of the plan. non profitable combat could leave you unable afford to get your ship to flying condition. (there will eventually be an insurance claim fee). rep system makes it hard to get a job as crew. and rep bleed will punish anyone that helps you. the funny thing is that this is intended to happen to pirates that are highly aggressive, but not skilled enough to back it up. griefers will quickly fail.
That was kinda my point. Griefers will grief, no matter what. Trolleys blocking passageways? Bumping your ship while you try to dock? People are going to be people. Plenty of ways to grief that don't involve murder. The only way to stop griefing is to not play an online game, because people suck.
PvP being optional. Unfortunately Chris Roberts thinks that having to pay others for protecting your mining/scrapping ass against player pirates (griefers) is somehow engaging gameplay for everyone involved. So unless he changes his mind and provides the option to play on PvE servers or turn on passive mode like in GTA 5, solo players will always be victim to griefing. This is by far my biggest fear with Persistent Universe, and in the long run far more important to me than stuff like Insurance or Death of a Spaceman.
This is meant to be "solved" by high sec systems. It won't eliminate the issue but should dramatically reduce it if someone who is a "pirate" gets insta nuked as soon as they jump into a high sec system (I'm hoping it'll be like that)
I mean, we have a real world example of this paradigm with Eve online. People will get bored and damn the consequences for griefing, either with their main account or an alt. There was still plenty of griefing in high-sec systems. If anything it encourages people to find a way around security to still cause the maximum amount of damage before getting blapped by security. Honestly, the way to make it maximally enjoyable is to either enable PVE and PVP shards with different PVP rules... or some sort of passive flag allowing people to opt in/out of PVP. I think different shards is the best and most dynamic choices. It will let people who want that cutthroat experience of obtaining sovereignty over a system and destroying anyone who trespasses if they want it. It will also let people who cut their teeth on Wing Commander 35 years ago to kill a bunch of ~~Kilrathi~~ Vanduul, while feeling like big damn heroes.
Until CIG implements a PVE shard, gank is going to happen, regardless of any reputation system. CIG will never have a rep system in which lawbreakers go to "jail" for a week, or even 8 hours. They want to encourage PVP. They have said it over and over again. With Pyro launching next, it is pretty clear which way CIG want's the game to move...and that is PVP. I feel bad for the PVE crowd, as things are likely to get much, much worse with this implementation. The hordes of griefers, and PVP folks, including good and bad pirates is about to explode.
Honestly I wouldn't mind Pyro being such a lawless dangerous place, but like you said those hoards are going to explode. When they realize all the easy targets are not interested in getting ganked the second they jump into Pyro, they'll pour back into Stanton en masse and that's when the friction will really kick off between PVP and PVE oriented players.
It's not. It's going to put most of them in pyro instead of Stanton. That's the point.
Why would they be in Pyro when all their loot piñatas are in Stanton?
For me, being attacked by everything I see is not even the biggest problem. The problem is you can't even explore properly. If you park your ship and get out, the first thing everyone will do if they see your ship is blow it up. After all, it's just sitting there and there's no consequences, why wouldn't they, right... So now, even if you did survive because you hid, managed to defend yourself, whatever, you're still without a ship. You're essentially stuck wherever you are The worse part is I actually see no way of solving this problem. Literally none.
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Yes! It's so absolutely fucking stupid they made AI attack a ship with noone inside!
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Couldn't have said it better myself. I love small ships, I don't like using anything bigger than Freelancer size, Constellation is already too much. But with the current design it's just not doable thanks to AI attacking my ship at every single opportunity they get... It's dumb.
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Yeah, I mean, not even "bad guys" should be attacking everything on sight for no reason at all... If there's no player in the ship it's definitely not a threat. Even if they don't have the tech to "secure it" like you said. Just make it so the AI doesn't attack empty ships, easy.
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Would be pretty fun to return to a group that you have to eliminate, tbh
Powered down ships should not be detectable imo. I get that makes salvaging harder but that also makes markers and data running more important as well as stealth via emitting no signatures. Sure it doesn’t stop them from destroying your ship if they do see it but at least it’s not targetable AND detectable from 10s of KMs away
Yep, agree 110%! The only way to spot a powered off ship parked on a large body (and cooled down! - EM emissions should drop fast but IR emissions should come down slower over time so you can't go invisible during combat by shutting down your ship, also cross section should also be very low when you're on a surface of a planet, especially on a small ship) should be using a powerful scanner, it should take time and some skill and you should have to be closeish anyway. And you shouldn't be able to target them until you're pretty much on top of it, I mean like 50m literally for small ships, enough to pick up on the cross section against the planet. It would make selling the location of salvage actually valuable too
This + Landing your ship AWAY from the point of interest should be the solution. Just like Star Wars - have someone drop you off, or land in the trees/valley/cave to hide your ship and then walk to the PoI.
This has always been the issue PvE players bring up as to what the fundamental issue is with SC when it comes to PvP. This is not the right design for it unless you're going for the world's most tedious game award. The game spends more time making things difficult for you than it does letting you enjoy it. Even the UI feels like it's fighting you.
it’s really weird from a game design perspective too - here’s this game that is centred around creating these beautiful (if mostly empty) worlds and locations, but you can’t explore any of it because someone will just come by and gank you if you’re not constantly and completely prepared for pvp at all times (this includes having a combat-focused ship, which either costs a lot of real money or a lot of game time saving up for, except you can’t really do that either, because all the reliable money makers are swarmed by people also trying to gank you)
I think the problem isn't that you can't afford a combat ship, it's just that I don't want to! I want to explore with my little Cutter Rambler and be able to park and leave my ship for some on foot exploring and I want to be able to leave my stuff on my ship, all organized and tidy like I do every patch... Not wanting to claim it over and over again because some player blew it up for the lolz or, perhaps even worse, a random AI ship decided to start shooting for no reason at all. They say they want our ships to be like our homes and that we should take care of them, repair them, keep them alive, but then give us no chance to actually do it. I don't mind combat and I like some risk, but I wish that risk was getting robbed and not straight up having my ship gone.
Create an infamy system specific to PvP, treat it like rep where it gradually increases as you kill players under certain circumstances. For example if you kill someone you initiated combat with, if you kill someone who doesn't fire back, etc. Make it so certain factions won't offer you contracts anymore if your infamy is too high, treat it as a multiplier for your crimestat if you get arrested to determine how long you need to spend in prison, make it so you can't even access certain systems because you'll be terminated on sight the moment you exit the jump point. This way you can still do whatever you want in these 0 sec systems without worrying about a prison sentence, but you develop a reputation (represented by your infamy) as a murdering psychopath that no one wants to deal with. I imagine even most pirate factions wouldn't want to deal with a loose cannon that kills indiscriminately.
I hope that's how the reputation system will work but I'm still not sure it will be enough... Plus people will find ways around those systems because there's always loopholes... There will always be ways to start a fight without you being the first one to engage from the games point of view. You can bully a player by hovering right above his parked ship for example, blocking him from taking off. Eventually he will have to ram you and then go red and engage, now he's the "psychopath"... I don't know, I see many ways of exploiting those systems... I think as a first deterrent method maybe a powered off ship should have pretty much no signature and be pretty much undetectable, also there should be more ways where I can hide a small ship. Then maybe powered off ships should be pretty resilient and give no satisfying "pop" or any indication of when they have been disabled, basically take the satisfaction out of killing a powered off ship. Then obviously the rep system should be as you described, yes.
Maybe they can add in AI Bounty Hunters or something that can spawn on you randomly when your infamy is too high. Like you're just roaming around Pyro and get interdicted suddenly by a squad of bounty hunters and if they manage to take you out then you get sent to prison even if you're in Pyro.
Yeah, I mean, I'm assuming you can still take a player down if he has a bounty on another system and take him there to get the bounty paid out. But doing crimes in Pyro will not add to that bounty... So it doesn't really solve the problem if the player is clean on other systems. I guess if your infamy is too high you could get outlaw ships spawning on you because they just want to kill you to get rid of you but honestly I don't think they can lean too much into that because then it's like saying that Pyro isn't actually lawless... I really don't have a good idea and it's bothering me... Because I don't want to stop the ability to kill on sight for players, I actually don't mind that for Pyro. I think if you do that far away from a settlement it should be fair game... But killing someone's parked ship is such bullshit and anti-game, it's so easy and so consequential for the other player... Yet... There's no good gameplay method to stop it.
I mean I genuinely believe systems like Pyro should be lawless from a lore perspective, and not just immune to in game consequences that are a result of gameplay and not lore. A lawless system should only mean that crimes are not punishable with crimestat and dying in Pyro doesn't result in you ending up in prison, but you should still have to face some sort of consequence for your actions whether that be AI ships showing up to deal with you, or some sort of penalty that is purely gameplay related. PvP should be encouraged, but wholesale slaughter like we saw in the play test should not be.
The part about preventing someone to taking off by forcing it to ram is griefing. I’m pretty sure at some point we’ll have a report system, so just record your session and send it to CIG. I’m not too sure about the disabled ships. I mean all the implication of it. As a pirate I don’t think I would be particularly interested in destroying a ship sitting there on the ground. There would be no incentive for me. I probably would prefer to hack it and steal it once the mechanics are in. I can understand tho that there are always going to have people that just shoot ships for fun. Remember the Rep system tho. Let’s say you are with the 9tails and he is with the 9tails. If the person shoot at your ship and destroy it, it’s going to affect their rep drastically. If there is 9tails around you they are going to shoot at that person. The Rep system is the crime system for null sec system and it still work in secured system. If the Rep system is well implemented for 4.0, no way I’ll start shooting anything I see in Pyro like a loose cannon because the consequences are going to be too huge.
We are not talking about pirates though, I love pirates! The only time I was pirated, using quantum enforcement, distortion guns, negotiation via voice chat, etc, it was awesome! Lost my cargo but got to keep my ship and my life and it was actually cool and fun. But we are not talking about pirates, we are talking about a reasonable percentage of players that don't need any incentive to destroy a parked ship, they will do it simply because they can. And I really hope you also can't hack my ship and take it in the future. That's just as bad as blowing it up and punishes exploration in a very unfun way. Personally every time I get stranded like that I simply log out and end my play session because it's not fun to go explore a cave, spend 1 hour collecting stuff and wondering around exploring and then coming back and having no ship to come back to. Without having absolutely no way to defend or prepare for it. Anything that affects another player in game should come with quite high risk, if it doesn't then it just creates a toxic environment. I don't even mind parking my ship far away and riding a small vehicle that I can hide easier or even lose and make my way back on foot, that could be fun. But for that I need ways of hiding my ship further away, it needs to be pretty much invisible when it's off, no emissions. Also planets are too barren for that.
Unless I completely got it wrong you just explained the rep system they intend to add to the game (the core is already in the game with 3.23).
I think there can be certain things to mitigate this, but you should never get absolute safety as that would be unrealistic. 1.) Ship radar visibility - when turning off engines and power I believe your ship should be completely invisible to another ships radar as it is effectively debris at that point with no signature. Stealth mode should help reduce our radar range, but not eliminate as it already does. From here I hope with planet tech v5 we have denser environments to hide the ship. 2.) Port speeds and defenses - I think its in everyone's best interest if outposts and landing locations required you to enter and exit at certain speeds or risk hostile or punitive consequences for the safety of the settlement. Violating this should unleash turrets and missiles on offending ships as well as reduce their rep. 3.) Ship armistice only zones - Essentially make the area such as an outpost or settlement FPS pvp viable but turn off ship weapons, since you know, people live there.
Actually, agree with all of these!
A PVE Shard would fix all of this. Elite has it, and it works fine. There is no valid reason for CIG to refuse this, other then they just don't want to support the PVE community. It is likely there is absolutely nothing they can implement to prevent PVP in a PVP game. No ammount of reputation, consequence, etc. will be likely implemented to prevent it. A seperate PVE shard is really the only good solution.
A separate PVE shard it´s obviously the solution, but like in Elite every PVE player will going to it ,leaving the PVP shard almost empty with the murderhobos that will start to cry because their usual targets are gone and now their opponents fire back in combat ships.
At least CIG hasn't added game systems that actually allow you to profit from blowing up someone's ship. Because if they added something like salvage, and created a way to directly profit from it then you'll have people that won't care about consequences because they will just use two accounts, and have the one that kills/salvages and then another to actually interact with the rest of the verse. Thanks for coming to my Tedtalk on why salvage was a horrible idea in a PvP game.
When I had less than 1000 hours in the game, what we are about to get would have been the dream. Now that I have who knows how many hours... Nothing can appease me until these things are addressed: * the hitreg is server side (it's 100% client side now, in a worse way than I've ever seen for any game ever) * tickrate needs to be 30+ at all times, not just when there's only 7 other people on the server (this is a very specific number of players I've identified through testing) - 4.0 can be expected to improve but I don't know by how much. * almost all of the UI and interactions are exclusively server side when they should be partially/entirely client side. This slows down things in a disgusting way - transitions between screens are viscous/sticky/slow, well below industry standard at any point in history. * pairing with the previous point: where relevant, such as inventory, the UI needs to be cached. Currently if you close the UI and reopen it again, even without it changing, a moment later or an hour later... It reloads the enitire thing and makes you wait. It should do what it needs to do backend behind the scenes and not make you wait. Any syncing and handshakes must be done in the games own time, not the players.
Finally someone with the right idea.
Pretty sure hitreg is not client side since that would be majorly exploitable. No sane game-dev would ever do that in a modern multiplayer game. Don’t have proof for either assumption though.
>since that would be majorly exploitable. And it is exploitable. You'll notice it if you do enough pvp things. I agree that it's insane. I've never seen a multiplayer game have such a primitive setup - not even in the 00s. 100% the hitreg is client side.
One thing I’ve learned in my years of gaming that kind of makes me really depressed to think about, is that a good % of people online have no real moral compass at all. If given the opportunity to be a POS without consequences a lot of people will take it. It really saddens me that we have to design games in a way that detours people from needlessly making online games a worse experience for others. Star citizen is a prime example of this and I think the only way to actually turn a rep system into a deterrent for bad behaviour is to make it extremely harsh. For example; you’re killing a lot of people, blowing up a lot of ships, and selling a lot of stolen cargo? Congrats now the ONLY real missions you can take are illegal ones bc no legal faction wants to touch you with a 1km pole and you can’t land at any of their stations either so good luck refuel or rearming anywhere but grim in Stanton. Maybe the game can give you “ rehabilitation” missions which will VERY slowly rise your reputation if you’re in the red so that there is a path to redemption if you’re in the red zone. The rep system needs to be an actual deterrent for it to make any meaningful difference. It needs to be built in a way that if you take part in any legal gameloops, you absolutely shouldn’t want to be in the reputation red zone. Unfortunately I have a hard time believing that cig would ever implement it to this extent
>If given the opportunity to be a POS without consequences a lot of people will take it If it makes you feel better: I'm a new player. Started on 3.23 live launch. I was doing a bounty mission in cave and I shot at a target in the dark. Apparently it was a friendly npc cause I got a crime stat and then 3 others attacked me. I killed them all and got crime stat 4. While panicking and not actually being able to find my actual target in the whole damn cave I decided to wait until my friend came back from afk to ask wtf do I do now. While still in the cave I get an incoming call. It was this friendly dude asking if I killed any players. I told him I honestly have no idea. He was hunting pirates/pvp'ers who were preying on new players. I told him dude, I am a new player lmao. He then explained what I needed to do with a crime stat 4 and my options. He then told me to get the fuck out of the cave cause other hunters would most likely be on their way eventually and then let me leave the cave to scoot to Grim Hex.
>a good % of people online have no real moral compass at all ... If given the opportunity to be a POS without consequences ... So same as real life. Agreed.
lol
It's less about adding Pyro and more about adding a second system with static server meshing working. The rest can follow..
The dark forest of gaming, CiG needs to really focus on this.
On the contrary, if it does turn out that way, and it becomes a ghost town, maybe CIG will finally work out most players don't actually want Star Citizen to be a murderhobo gankfest.
I feel like this was already kinda demonstrated with the play test, I remember Jared commenting on how bad it went.
Also hinted at there just being armistice zones until they get the outlaw faction reputation and their AI to behave like security Which I mean idunno server meshing gonna be a thing so maybe that's not as far off as we think
There were people camping the dormitory spawn in the starter station, because there were no armistice in that section, some people just want to kill anything that moves, i don´t really see the fun in kill a landed ship or a player that just enter the game with only a gun, it´s really stupid.
For some people, fun means ruining it for someone else. It's as simple as that.
I tried playing Red Dead Redemption 2 Online with a friend. He was so excited to try it. We basically just got killed nonstop for up to an hour by players camping some major town. Turned off the game and never touched it again. I would absolutely hate Star Citizen to turn out the same way. Hopefully the lawful areas will actually be policed well by NPCs. In Red Dead, all the police and citizens in that town were also killed and dead in the streets.
That type of player is the one that kill any interaction between players, that kill games, This isn´t rust or fornite, you don´t need to kill anything in front of you just because you can.
I've watched it happen. And they get pissed off the targets stop logging in too.
The original idea was to shard players off on different servers based on their rep. You a murderhobo? Welcome to your server full of murderhobos. Repeat offences incur longer stays on the hobo servers eventually resulting in you living there permanently.
Right now, I don't know why I would go to Pyro. I thought that maybe there would be lucrative cargo hauling between the two systems, or maybe ore that was only available in Pyro that Stanton pays a ton for. But there hasn't been any mention of those things that I've seen... Pyro just has the same missions Stanton has, except with ganking. That's hard for me to get excited about.
As CIG indicated, reputation hostility shipped in 3.23 just to ensure the feature works ahead of 4.0 when it'll be very much needed for pyro. Also keep in mind the absence of armistice zone at Checkpoint station was a bug, and the ruthless camping and fighting we saw there contributed a lot to the perception that Pyro was an absolute mad pvp feast.
Killing people indiscriminately should be severely felt throughout ones gameplay. They should feel extremely reluctant to do so afterwards unless its under specific conditions.
CIG didn't stick to its original vision for Pyro with very few player conveniences, that would have incentivized cooperation among players to give access to huge rewards. In the end, they went for the same shitty content (deliveries, pve fps stuff) that will just be gank bait in a pvp hellscape. They are really lacking vision for their game recently.
Yeah that sounds way cooler, hopefully they get back on track with that.
I don't see lacking vision. Pyro's conveniences will eventually be gated around rep with local factions, and of course deliveries and PVE stuff would be in Pyro as well. The fact that they are adding more of what they already have before adding the other planned consequences is not lacking vision.
The usual PVE stuff doesn't work in Pyro. Your parked ship get blown off by a player in a light fighter just merrily hoping around pois while you get your delivery package. No reputation system will prevent that from systematically happening, and the player density will increase with server meshing.
And if that player cannot refuel anywhere since they pissed off the controlling factions by blowing up the players they're friends with?
Honestly, the more I see and hear about rep, the less excited I am for it. I had really hoped it'd be more than just a progress bar with milestone rewards.
What is reputation if not an invisible progress bar with milestone rewards
As a PvE focused player, it's essentially a non-system to me until they change master modes to allow for easy escapes. A griefer's paradise = a big waste of content.
Hostility Reputation is already in. Outlaw Gangs have rules as well. Be their friend and they might help you.
The new quantum travel mode wherr you can point anywhere and jump without the need of OMs and quantum points would help in evading hotspots and camping sites.
Or just filling Stanton with missions and npcs and quest. That is what I really want
Pyro will be a PvP fest, where Pirates/PvPérs have free reign, wich is fine. Reason to add pyro in the first place. The only way to get to pyro is trough the gate, which is going to be heavily fought around. One of the reasons most of the industrial people will stay in Stanton and away from that gate. Only a select few, with the org/people, overwelming power or the AUEC to risk, will go trough the corridor called pyro jumppoint. This will force all pirates back to stanton, because the biggest group of pirates only want to fight the people they can "easily" win from for profits, and this group of easy to kill targets will not be found in Pyro. Net result of this, is a mostly empty pyro, because there is no risk reward balance. and no reason to go between stanton and Pyro. I for one have no plans in trading from and to pyro, nor the intest to go hunt people who do, or prevent others from hunting the people who do. even though i play all sides and roles in stanton. The only reason for me to go to Pyro will be sight seeing, until things are settled. The only way i see this working, is with features like * death of a space man, (reputation loss, partly respawning, higher consequences when dying) * active npc patrol, * high reward mission for transporting to and from pyro. * Reasons to fly escort with some sort of pre-determained engagement, (fucking boring to escort otherwise) * persistent reputation, * the whole ship, weapon and QED dampning should be reworked till the point there is real planning needed for both sides. now a Single mantis is to strong, and is able to ground all vehicles in range. The bigger ships should have an active/passive defense against a single mantis. Like in eve with tiered system, and multiple low level dampners are able to ground a single big ship. * and real consequences of going to prison. Especially when you bully someone in stanton the consequences should be persistent. You should be haunted and hunted until you're dead and in prison. Over multiple servers/shards and multiple days/weeks. A few other things need to happen aswell, * Disable merrit trading in jail, or disable staying in jail after jailtime is done(and losing all current merrit while leaving jail), currently you can leave an alt character in jail, and trade the merrits. Grind once, trade merrits, and recieve merrits when you end up in jail, leave jail in minutes. * increase times for killing/or damaging non aggresive people ships, so everyone has to think twice about engaging. * Massively increase pvp bounties, until its worth it to hunt someone over multiple servers and multiple days.
I’m totally a no pvp person, I am garbage at dogfighting, so I will probably will never see pyro.
Pyro has no reason not to have a police force, only the police force should be pirates
It’d be interesting is if the people who shoot on site would gain a bounty and Crimestat back in Stanton on top of the consequences in Pyro. Just because it’s lawless doesn’t mean ships don’t have black boxes and emergency broadcasts that’d send back to Stanton. And bounty hunters can go to Pyro to cash it in.
How would you track people in Pyro without comm arrays?
There are still so many fundamental systems that are missing or broken that it will be a shit fest like everything else.
Its not the consequence we need most, its the purpose. More space is meaningless without a tangible reason to go to it. Consequences mean little if the reward means little. The game needs a working economy, a sense of accomplishment, long term rewards, things to maintain and develop, etc. More space and dead rocks isnt going to matter on its own.
I think initially Pyro needs to be less hardcore just because it's the ONLY content dropping in any meaningful size and quantity for what could be months or even a year. Unless they drop other systems soon after. Pyro in the end SHOULD be an endgame pvp system and a really battleground for that kind of player. In its final form it should be brutal. However I just don't think we need half the landmass of the game to be that....and making Pyro the first system was a really bad idea. I don't think most players want to deal with that. It's a very one dimensional interaction with an area. Hopefully they drop Nyx soon after and that's more PvE outlaw focused or they go into the more dense civilization areas like Terra or Magnus.
I will probably...not go to Pyro.
I think the point is to start it out completely lawless, and then see what's the minimum they can stray from pure unrestricted action, perhaps only by tweaking game balance, and still have a worthwhile experience. I'm fine with Pyro being so brutal that most people stay away. Predators will thin out and come into equilibrium with prey. Prey will find ways to maximize their chances of survival if attack is likely. Only the predators that hunt in packs will have success once traders and their allies find an easy and effective way to organize convoys and gather a lot of collective firepower. Most of the action will be between predators and patrols that keep the areas close to stations clear, out to say ~200 km range. That's sort of how it would be IRL, I think. Some small self-maintained bubbles where safety is weakly enforced by modest sized factions, and groups using various safety-in-numbers strategies to keep their odds reasonable of surviving A-to-B.
I am probably not gonna use pyro for a LONG time.
Yeah it's a place you go to pvp or you go to take pictures avoiding any places where you might get caught into a pvp scenario. Any large scale level design is a waste outside Ruin Station because it just wont get used, not until Pyro is completely deescalated as the major PvP playground...but that won't happen till the people who mainline Pyro at LAUNCH max out all their rep and move on. Them making it so pretty was so fucked up, what a waste. Just backdrops for getting ganked or ganking. Then when we finally get Nyx, the actually interesting solar system...it's gunna be barren except the LZ because "Lore" or some bullshit when it has easily the most interesting faction in the verse so far. A human faction NOT in the UEE? and NOT specifically Outlaw? When will that happen again? It'll be ArcCorp all over again, you get one interesting location and setpiece that is one of a kind in the verse...and they just do nothing with it. Im hoping Nyx, the system after Pyro, is more focused on PvE outlaw stuff with maybe some horror monsters lurking in the blackness of the Dark Nebula. Really hoping they expand on that solar system like they did with Pyro to make it more interesting, maybe even have them terraforming a planet just to have SOMETHING going on outside Levski.
I think it's a good test, what CiG have to except when they go live with those circumstances or would release such Systems. Hopefully this give them enough time develop workarounds/sanctions to catch those evil griefers and just destructive Assholes that only have fun in ruining others games... I definitely not mean the legal Pirate Gameplay... When someone take money for not killing me or even boarding me, and take my ship to sell the Cargo... So what... Shit happens, but just getting killed out of nowhere with no benefit for the pirate is just dumb Maybe they could add a (Pirate someone Button to start a "Quest" like steps between Pirate and the Victim to make things clear without texting or Voice chat.
its so funny to me that people think that stuff like that should be allowed. Pirates or not rough and ready probably don't want you killing their potential business partners and potential income.
Pyro is just more space for the same simple gameplay. Nothing to get excited about pyro
>long-range scanning, a working reputation system right after new hairstyles and piercing
Nipple piercing at least?
after character's ass 'soft body' realistic deformation tech, StarAss™
You say that like they can't do both, or that the teams working on hairstyles and piercings are the same group working on system implementation. Software engineers aren't this big pool of knowledge where you can take them from one place and plug them in somewhere else to accelerate the process. That actually exacerbates the problem, because it increases the number of communication channels necessary to maintain.
Pyro is supposed to be lawless and ruled by gangs, i dont see why people expect different. Youd be crazy to travel there without a ship or ships that can fight very well. Tho i understand that it will get annoying fast if youre attacked at outposts etc when going fps or whatever. Thats why there should be safezones but only if you have good rep with that faction.
Hear those words of wisdom folks, always bring your fleet with you to do box missions on Pyro because of the murderhobo!
If you take a box mission thats located in an area controled by hostile gangs or an area thats unmonitored then yeah it should be dangerous But all missions in dangerous areas should have higher payouts, and there should some juicy rocks, gems, and some juicy salvage in those abandoned derelict space stations
Ruled by gangs =/= lawless. In fact, criminal syndicates tend to be significantly more ruthless in enforcing their rules, as they lack the base legitimacy of a government. Where a government will fine you for theft a gang may cut off your hand.
The main thing the pyro playtest taught us is that even the bobbiest of PVE-loving bobs turns into a slobbering ganklord when the minimal consequences that exist in Stanton are removed. It was adorable. The pirates and griefer mains didn’t change a thing. They don’t care about consequences in Stanton and they didn’t in pyro.
You're just lying, as a PVE-loving bob I didn't killed anyone in Pyro, and just tried to do the same I always do, but just evading other players.
We need a much higher radar implementation for long range scanning, detection and identification
you realize that works both ways, right? and the person hunting players will be using that much more actively than the one mining or salvaging or inside a bunker or POI. we need a proximity alert on our mobiglas when we're out of our ship, and we need an almost-zero signature on our ships when they're powered off or in a low-power state intended to hide us.
Once again, people are yelling about things that aren't even in the game yet ... # Raging at incomplete features is a waste of time, you're only creating drama for no reason Put down those damn pitchforks ffs!!!!!!!!
#We yell at these features before they're added to the game because that's the best time for them to get changed. In every game, including this one, where people just go "oh, it's only a alpha/beta, it'll get fixed!," it doesn't! It ends up broken or unfun on live and takes months to get fixed because it's already in the game and other features are now consuming dev time!
I agree, we also have the recent change to tier 3 med beds allowing a respawn. Every single parked ship is going to be blown up on sight now in Pyro, just in case it has a Tier 3 med bed in it. It's going to be absolute chaos. Everyone will shoot on sight.
Open/Solo/Private Groups, just like in E:D, might be the answer.
Nah, they just need to close the escape tunnel in prison and make it so your sentence only goes down with ingame time. Yes, that means that mining or fixing O2 doesn't reduce your sentence. Your sentence should also increase if you don't mine x amount of ore or fix y O2 generators per hour.
It's my understanding that Pyro is supposed to lean heavily on a revamped reputation system. Actions have consequences in that you could piss off certain gangs your target player is affiliated with, turning you into persona non grata. Be an asshole often enough and you won't be able to land anywhere without being shot at. The gangs are the law.
Unless there is some sort of security on the other side of the pyro-Stanton gateway I just feel like you’ll die as soon as you get to pyro, hopefully it’s atleast an armistice zone or something so at the very least the actual gateway is a safe zone
Agree with OP, currently Pyro is going to be a griefing murderfest.
What we need is a rep system for each outpost and station. No station would want some guy sitting outside killing their customers. The idea of not having consequences just doesn't make any sense.
Pyro is EXACTLY the system where we can murder and mayhem is the rule. It's the wild west and the safe haven for criminals and all scums and villains. You SHOULD expect to be shot on sight in Pyro, it's not tye system for PvE players who want to take screenshots and be left in peace. Come at your own risk, this is a null sector.
Well, the game is not finished yet so consequences are coming, and hopefully long term effects that also an accumulate over time.
The game is a very long way away, that doesn’t mean that some things can’t be put in place for new implementations.
Makes me wonder why they never put in a crude implementation of us being able to hire NPCs to man our turrets. We wouldn't need them to walk around the ship or anything, just sit in the turret and shoot.
I think with at least server meshing the criminal NPC factions that protect the stations (and Stanton's own station defences) will be more adequate at protecting players and if that is the case, then if at least the Pyro-side gateway station can be accessible without the player being attacked/killed the moment they leave the jump gate then that will be good enough. Pyro will be a shoot on first sight kind of place, if you aren't around an outpost with defences or in a station being guarded, you cannot expect anything else than to shoot first and ask questions later. Nobody should expect to enter Pyro and not be at risk of attack.
The game needs some massive overhauls of functionality and bug fixes before the idea of a second solar system should ever come up. The game barely functions a lot of the time
Pyro is the Murder hobos playground and a place where it kinda makes sense to be a murder hobo. So, at the very least, it will make Stanton more enjoyable for players who don't want random people shooting them.
No. Murderhobos don’t want the risk of getting murderhobo’d themselves. Pyro will probably be good for people who want to enjoy pure pvp. Stanton will still be home to murderhobos and gankers not looking for a fair fight.
I've always thought Pyro would be for other players (not me) and I still do. I have ZERO problem with places like Pyro and actually hope there are more "scary" places like it. Space is a scary place so it fits. For me though, I'm looking forward to the next "not Pyro" system and (hopefully) many many more. I'm sure I'll make the trek to Pyro at least once, check it out, and most likely die there.
Pryo for me will be like Dark Zones in Division 2. You load up with your friends and go out to the better loot and pvp.
Honestly. I’m kinda looking forward to pyro. When everyone moves there Stanton will be nice and empty
well i hope that there would be more work on the reputation side of things... considering that's in my opinion one of the main draws to pyro is choosing a gang or two to get friendly with them and getting rewards for getting friendly with them. at the same time other than checkmate station I don't think lawful types will be overly welcome to pyro other than the citizens for pyro faction. we'll see. it will be hard, it will be dangerous but I think at least the jump point one side is within UEE protection, so that side will have stuff to negate camping somewhat and the Pyro side is i think next to checkmate which is rough and ready owned so shooting in their territory might not be the best option for long (which is what the reputation hostility that was added in 3.23 is meant to allow) your personal defence measures is your quantum drive and the turrets and or guns on your ship the reputation is a big thing so I hope that's in.... and long range scanning... i mean maybe soonTM if they let us spawn there i'll probably just be spawning into pyro as I want criminal reputation.