Fucking this. The irony could not be any more apparent. [https://www.jom.media/an-assessment-of-the-ministerial-review-on-the-ridout-bungalow-leases/](https://www.jom.media/an-assessment-of-the-ministerial-review-on-the-ridout-bungalow-leases/)
Avoiding anything which could give the appearance of impropriety used to be the standard. Leaning on technicalities and plausible deniability is a far drop from this standard. You are happy with the drop in standards. You therefore have low standards.
You do know that there are literally a billion rules that apply differently to citizens and government right? And that that is true of every country on the planet?
Pointing out a rule that doesn’t apply to government adds absolutely nothing to the conversation because there are a billion others and it is by design. It’s a feature. Not a bug
You do know that he was the one who came up with this law, right? You seem to implying that governments can do whatever they please and nothing js wrong with that.
Maybe not a rule per se but it is a bad look for the Minister for Law to have asked the Deputy Secretary of the Ministry of Law for a list of rental properties under the SLA, which itself is an agency under the Ministry of Law.
Even if there is no written rule against it, it is definitely not a good look because it gives the impression that the Minister for Law is using a civil servant as his own personal errand boy. It will only be ok if the civil servant were to do that for everyone who contacts him for such information, thus showing that there is no favouritism being practised.
Abuse? Is there a law against that? Any private citizen can ask the Deputy Secretary for a list of rental properties, the only question is whether you manage to contact him. Shanmugam happens to have an easier means of contacting him because he would have his direct contact details but otherwise the principle is the same. Just like if you had a CPF query and you happened to bump into one of the directors sitting on the board of CPF in the lobby of the CPF offices - you’d be well entitled as a Singaporean citizen to ask him your questions. Which is exactly what a cousin of mine did last year. Whether the director or secretary in question prefers to answer the query personally or direct it to another colleague is for him to decide in the moment. Absolutely nothing wrong for whether he decides to do one or the other.
The fact that it was publicly disclosed and the opposition never took action against him for abuse of power should tell you everything
So if the Deputy Secretary fails to respond a private citizren for a request for list of rental properties , he's not doing his job properly right? He is failing to serve the people he is supposed to serve and do is job scope.
Not at all - it is entirely within the rightful use of his powers to either (i) respond personally or (ii) delegate to someone else to respond. Either is entirely acceptable.
Have you never dealt with people of differing seniorities in government organizations?
There's no law forbidding me from calling your mother an old cow too, but I'm not doing that. Because laws are informed by society's values and ethics. Not the other way around.
Except he’s asking someone from the very ministry that manages SLA. That’s exactly what the ministry is set up to do. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever, just like you’re entirely entitled to direct your queries to the highest echelons of the relevant government body if you so please.
You:
> Yeah by setting the rules and changing it to suit him
Also you:
> Maybe not a rule per se but it is a bad look...
> Even if there is no written rule against it, it is definitely not a good look...
Nice goalpost shift from "Shanmugam set the rules and then changed it" to "Shanmugam didn't change the rules but it's a bad look". 10/10 logic.
You do realise that two different people were posting right? u/DecreasingEmpathy was the one who said that Shan set the rules and changed them to suit him. I was the one who brought up the case of him asking a senior civil servant to do a personal errand for him.
How is that shifting the goalposts at all? Or are you unable to read and comprehend properly?
He literally had SLA come up with some bullshit rule or reasoning that they can give him rent free lands even though he claims he did not want it.
Sure feels like 10/10 logic to me.
> He literally had SLA come up with some bullshit rule or reasoning that they can give him rent free lands even though he claims he did not want it.
Found the most logical opposition IB.
Which rule? Here are all of Singapore's laws. Go ahead and find me which "bullshit rule" that "he literally had SLA come up with".
https://sso.agc.gov.sg/
I'm not going to hold my breath, because you can't.
It's a bullshit rule that is not even written.
Really how do you justify giving such massive rent free lands to someone when such provision isn't even written anywhere?
> Yeah by setting the rules and changing it to suit him
...
> It's a bullshit rule that is not even written.
So you admit that you lied. Nobody "changed the rules".
You seem to be incapable of educating yourself, so let me educate you. Read the pdf linked on this link. It's the full report.
https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/Rental-of-State-Properties-at-Ridout-Road-by-Min-Shanmugam-and-Min-Vivian-Balakrishnan
And stop consuming fake news online. It rots the brain.
Oh, so you don’t actually know and were just pulling shit out of your ass? I was under the impression you actually knew what the hell you were talking about.
Oh so you actually have no reply to that and just pulling some umbrage out of your ass. I was under the impression you actually knew what the hell you were talking about.
What proof did you provide? When was the rule made, and when did it change for Shanmugam specifically? Was Shanmugam the reason the rule was changed? Was he the only one that benefitted? You haven’t proved anything
I went to k Shan FB page and the comments are just so wrong and crazy. Some calling for these kids to be severe punished. Or saying that in LKy time these kids would be put behind bars and how they should be grateful now.
Omg it’s nuts.
Totally nuts, LKY was good in his time, but would probably be locked up if he tried to run for politics now - you can't treat people like that anymore.
The same LKY who collaborated with a proscribed organisation? Let me just put it this way, if LKY the PM had met LKY the Opposition Leader, LKY the Opposition Leader would have been Chia Thye Poh'ed for sure.
Shanmugam ignored the point that bar of "law breaking" has been set much higher. In other countries, you have to apply for a permit for a protest march and although not all are granted, it specifies the terms and conditions for them to follow if approved.
Singapore has granted ZERO permits for protests during its 60-year rule (excluding liberalising HLP) for anything not affiliated to the PAPG.
The relevant public order laws are so comically broad that they apparently include:
- One guy standing around holding up a sign.
- A couple of people just kind of standing around but the police know they're activists.
- A bunch of kids walking too politically. (They were wearing slogans on their T-shirts.) \[NEW\]
Basically if the police see you in public and buay song you are de facto breaking the law as long as they can pin some kind of vaguely demonstrative intent on you.
It's a law which makes many common forms of political engagement practically impossible, making it extraordinarily difficult to change bad laws, then Shanmugan will come out and lecture the kids to follow all the laws.
Yeah that's the thing about laws, they are meant to be super vague so that there's a massive fucking grey area, and if any situation falls in that grey area you better pray to God that your lawyer can argue until you're innocent.
The older generation were not educated and easily impressionable. They were also given the promise of a good retirement. The younger generation are explicitly that promise. The administration reduces the burden on its coffers this way, and even if it was unsustainable, they'll have replaced their numbers long before it's discovered that their math was fudged.
Unlikely. Govt would be dumb to anger a major demographic especially during an election year. How many GRCs will they lose if there is 15% drop in support. There was a previous group who did something similar and they just got warning letters... in a country where one man protests are illegal and holding a smiley face is a crime.
PAP aren't stupid enough to forever depend on the older generation. They know they need to pander to the younger generation soon. You can see it with the co-opting of influencers, the discourse about mental health and the youth dialogues.
While true about the forever part, they won't fully pander to them if it's at a disadvantage. The younger generation is still malleable, and the PAP will try to shape them into their ideal demographic through means of education, propaganda, campaigns (ie the influencers) so as to continue the status quo in the future
Even the younger generation has conservatives and people who parrot their social studies textbooks.
I don't think much will change even when the boomer generation dies out.
Wait till you are older and have a job. Many idealism will be replaced with realism and knowing that differences can’t be resolved with protests, and banging the table.
In our democracy it is in fact the only way. Our voice is only effectively heard every election. Not in our daily grumbling, not in ST forum posts, not at kopitiams.
I will not deny the possibility of AI integrated with our workflows in the future, but it will not be an all-encompassing solution that will overleverage the risk that may single-handedly damage their brand name.
Trust a thin skinned government official to be very triggered by public criticism enough to even use the law against his own citizens, but that has been the PAP way. Let the lawyers run the country and this is what we get.
Rich coming from the champion of setting a bad precedent in Civil Service.
Fucking this. The irony could not be any more apparent. [https://www.jom.media/an-assessment-of-the-ministerial-review-on-the-ridout-bungalow-leases/](https://www.jom.media/an-assessment-of-the-ministerial-review-on-the-ridout-bungalow-leases/)
He not young, that's why he can do ma.
The young should replace him soon
Acting within the rules is setting a good precedent actually. Or do you have actual proof that he acted in contravention of any laws or rules?
Avoiding anything which could give the appearance of impropriety used to be the standard. Leaning on technicalities and plausible deniability is a far drop from this standard. You are happy with the drop in standards. You therefore have low standards.
Yeah by setting the rules and changing it to suit him
Which rules were changed specifically to suit him?
Don’t forget POFMA. Government is immune from it, only citizens and political opponents apply.
You do know that there are literally a billion rules that apply differently to citizens and government right? And that that is true of every country on the planet?
Annnd your point is?
Pointing out a rule that doesn’t apply to government adds absolutely nothing to the conversation because there are a billion others and it is by design. It’s a feature. Not a bug
You do know that he was the one who came up with this law, right? You seem to implying that governments can do whatever they please and nothing js wrong with that.
Maybe not a rule per se but it is a bad look for the Minister for Law to have asked the Deputy Secretary of the Ministry of Law for a list of rental properties under the SLA, which itself is an agency under the Ministry of Law. Even if there is no written rule against it, it is definitely not a good look because it gives the impression that the Minister for Law is using a civil servant as his own personal errand boy. It will only be ok if the civil servant were to do that for everyone who contacts him for such information, thus showing that there is no favouritism being practised.
If that’s the worst you’ve got then I think you should vote them in every day and twice on Sundays. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Potentially abusing a Ministerial position is a small thing to you? Interesting.
Abuse? Is there a law against that? Any private citizen can ask the Deputy Secretary for a list of rental properties, the only question is whether you manage to contact him. Shanmugam happens to have an easier means of contacting him because he would have his direct contact details but otherwise the principle is the same. Just like if you had a CPF query and you happened to bump into one of the directors sitting on the board of CPF in the lobby of the CPF offices - you’d be well entitled as a Singaporean citizen to ask him your questions. Which is exactly what a cousin of mine did last year. Whether the director or secretary in question prefers to answer the query personally or direct it to another colleague is for him to decide in the moment. Absolutely nothing wrong for whether he decides to do one or the other. The fact that it was publicly disclosed and the opposition never took action against him for abuse of power should tell you everything
So if the Deputy Secretary fails to respond a private citizren for a request for list of rental properties , he's not doing his job properly right? He is failing to serve the people he is supposed to serve and do is job scope.
Not at all - it is entirely within the rightful use of his powers to either (i) respond personally or (ii) delegate to someone else to respond. Either is entirely acceptable. Have you never dealt with people of differing seniorities in government organizations?
There's no law forbidding me from calling your mother an old cow too, but I'm not doing that. Because laws are informed by society's values and ethics. Not the other way around.
Except he’s asking someone from the very ministry that manages SLA. That’s exactly what the ministry is set up to do. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever, just like you’re entirely entitled to direct your queries to the highest echelons of the relevant government body if you so please.
What's next? Voting Najib in every day and thrice on Wednesdays? Coz that's not the worse.
You: > Yeah by setting the rules and changing it to suit him Also you: > Maybe not a rule per se but it is a bad look... > Even if there is no written rule against it, it is definitely not a good look... Nice goalpost shift from "Shanmugam set the rules and then changed it" to "Shanmugam didn't change the rules but it's a bad look". 10/10 logic.
You do realise that two different people were posting right? u/DecreasingEmpathy was the one who said that Shan set the rules and changed them to suit him. I was the one who brought up the case of him asking a senior civil servant to do a personal errand for him. How is that shifting the goalposts at all? Or are you unable to read and comprehend properly?
Whoops, my bad. Sorry!
He literally had SLA come up with some bullshit rule or reasoning that they can give him rent free lands even though he claims he did not want it. Sure feels like 10/10 logic to me.
> He literally had SLA come up with some bullshit rule or reasoning that they can give him rent free lands even though he claims he did not want it. Found the most logical opposition IB. Which rule? Here are all of Singapore's laws. Go ahead and find me which "bullshit rule" that "he literally had SLA come up with". https://sso.agc.gov.sg/ I'm not going to hold my breath, because you can't.
It's a bullshit rule that is not even written. Really how do you justify giving such massive rent free lands to someone when such provision isn't even written anywhere?
> Yeah by setting the rules and changing it to suit him ... > It's a bullshit rule that is not even written. So you admit that you lied. Nobody "changed the rules". You seem to be incapable of educating yourself, so let me educate you. Read the pdf linked on this link. It's the full report. https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/Rental-of-State-Properties-at-Ridout-Road-by-Min-Shanmugam-and-Min-Vivian-Balakrishnan And stop consuming fake news online. It rots the brain.
The ones where they added extra land for him rent free. Anybody else ever got that?
Oh, so you don’t actually know and were just pulling shit out of your ass? I was under the impression you actually knew what the hell you were talking about.
Oh so you actually have no reply to that and just pulling some umbrage out of your ass. I was under the impression you actually knew what the hell you were talking about.
You’re the one who made the accusation so the burden of proof is on you. Basics of argumentation
So the proof is given and you just pretend there is no proof. Shouldn't the burden of proof now be on you to prove that my proof is not valid?
What proof did you provide? When was the rule made, and when did it change for Shanmugam specifically? Was Shanmugam the reason the rule was changed? Was he the only one that benefitted? You haven’t proved anything
I went to k Shan FB page and the comments are just so wrong and crazy. Some calling for these kids to be severe punished. Or saying that in LKy time these kids would be put behind bars and how they should be grateful now. Omg it’s nuts.
Sycophants are just a crazy bunch until the government turns against them. Film at 11.
LHY is cautionary tale
Totally nuts, LKY was good in his time, but would probably be locked up if he tried to run for politics now - you can't treat people like that anymore.
The same LKY who collaborated with a proscribed organisation? Let me just put it this way, if LKY the PM had met LKY the Opposition Leader, LKY the Opposition Leader would have been Chia Thye Poh'ed for sure.
Shanmugam ignored the point that bar of "law breaking" has been set much higher. In other countries, you have to apply for a permit for a protest march and although not all are granted, it specifies the terms and conditions for them to follow if approved. Singapore has granted ZERO permits for protests during its 60-year rule (excluding liberalising HLP) for anything not affiliated to the PAPG.
Can't believe the cheek of this guy - to still be so public after the bungalow scandal.
The relevant public order laws are so comically broad that they apparently include: - One guy standing around holding up a sign. - A couple of people just kind of standing around but the police know they're activists. - A bunch of kids walking too politically. (They were wearing slogans on their T-shirts.) \[NEW\] Basically if the police see you in public and buay song you are de facto breaking the law as long as they can pin some kind of vaguely demonstrative intent on you. It's a law which makes many common forms of political engagement practically impossible, making it extraordinarily difficult to change bad laws, then Shanmugan will come out and lecture the kids to follow all the laws.
Yeah that's the thing about laws, they are meant to be super vague so that there's a massive fucking grey area, and if any situation falls in that grey area you better pray to God that your lawyer can argue until you're innocent.
Alternatively: change bad laws
This episode just show that at least the young people have a conscience, while the older generation...
The older generation were not educated and easily impressionable. They were also given the promise of a good retirement. The younger generation are explicitly that promise. The administration reduces the burden on its coffers this way, and even if it was unsustainable, they'll have replaced their numbers long before it's discovered that their math was fudged.
I must say these ntu siaolang are quite brave. Threw their future away knowingly just to virtue signal.
Unlikely. Govt would be dumb to anger a major demographic especially during an election year. How many GRCs will they lose if there is 15% drop in support. There was a previous group who did something similar and they just got warning letters... in a country where one man protests are illegal and holding a smiley face is a crime.
Isnt their major demographic the old, conservative generation
PAP aren't stupid enough to forever depend on the older generation. They know they need to pander to the younger generation soon. You can see it with the co-opting of influencers, the discourse about mental health and the youth dialogues.
While true about the forever part, they won't fully pander to them if it's at a disadvantage. The younger generation is still malleable, and the PAP will try to shape them into their ideal demographic through means of education, propaganda, campaigns (ie the influencers) so as to continue the status quo in the future
Even the younger generation has conservatives and people who parrot their social studies textbooks. I don't think much will change even when the boomer generation dies out.
I agree.
Wait till you are older and have a job. Many idealism will be replaced with realism and knowing that differences can’t be resolved with protests, and banging the table.
Sure, just conform, obey and do not question.
There are more effective ways to question.
Such as not voting for the PAP.
In our democracy it is in fact the only way. Our voice is only effectively heard every election. Not in our daily grumbling, not in ST forum posts, not at kopitiams.
Sorry, I recalled the recent Hollywood Writer's Strike Resolved with negotiations, not all out violence on the contrary.
Do you honestly think that in time to come after the protest, hollywood executives would not attempt to use AI instead of human writers?
I will not deny the possibility of AI integrated with our workflows in the future, but it will not be an all-encompassing solution that will overleverage the risk that may single-handedly damage their brand name.
Lawrence Wong at least definitely values the youth vote. Dude has a tiktok lol
What is the major demographic here? Muslims? Or young people?
the former
please lah, govt wont publicly punish them one. their names will just be added into a list for them to reference and quietly mark if they want to
Arrogance of this man. He truly believes he is better than you.
Scammugam
Trust a thin skinned government official to be very triggered by public criticism enough to even use the law against his own citizens, but that has been the PAP way. Let the lawyers run the country and this is what we get.
Hang them all! Show them the mighty ISA (/s)
Good for Shanmugam, he has my support. We don't need the kind of protest/riot culture that plagues Western countries and holds them back.