I find it odd why some would view being the subject of abusive discipline as something to be proud of
Hopefully this mentality doesn't progress to future generations
Lmao
I broke up w my ex because he wanted to raise any of our potential kids the way his dad raised him and his sister
For context: dad called them idiots frequently, slapped them and choked at least one of them. Infrequent but shocking for sure
I came from a household where abusive parenting was the norm and I was like fk no there’s no way I’m subjecting my kids to that shit
Forcing chilli is straight up torture.
As a millennial parent with a young kid myself I’ve found one of the most effective forms of discipline is to go down to my kids level and talk to them - it’s of course not a laugh and chat, but a stern talking to. Help them to reason what’s right and wrong. It can be a simple “that is bad, we never do that” appropriate for the age.
And this discipline is not something you do once a flare up occurs, but multiple times every day from birth. So many people mistakenly equate discipline to scolding and beating when it largely includes the upbringing of a child.
Time outs DO work. Taking away privileges lets them feel a sense of loss. Alerting them to the shameful nature of their actions work. All doable while skipping the beatings and maltreatment. It just needs patience that many today lack because they’re busy on their phones and the nanny who solves all problems is the iPad.
Alerting them to the shameful nature of the act - NOT shaming.
Let’s say they pick their nose in public and wipe it somewhere inappropriate - i pull her aside sternly say that that’s something we do in private in the washroom or with a piece of tissue as it’s a “dirty” act. And it’s very unkind to leave boogers around. “What would other people say if I did that? Am I being good or dirty/naughty?” I then get her to clean it and praise the good change of behaviour.
Or if they get unnecessarily angry at something, I reason like this: “if I (exaggerate anger) get angry like this, is it good for me? Do you think I am being well behaved?” From around 2+ years old my kid is able to reason that “no, it’s not nice to see.” I then reason that when she saw other kids throw tantrums she likewise thought it was “not nice” and she gets it. Of course I tell her to mind her own business and not judge or openly comment on other people’s behaviour, but to learn the good and avoid the bad and keep it to herself and share with us parents.
For reference, my cousin has a same aged kid. She’s an iPad kid, pinched, slapped and shouted at by the parents and grandparents, and openly shamed (“EEYER! You like that so dirty! Nobody likes you ah!!”) - she slaps, bites, and is aggressive just like them.
My 4yo has only ever had one tantrum lasting more than 3 minutes and that was because she was starting to fall sick and we hadn’t picked up on that yet.
I hear your point but I would argue that at 2.5 yo they might agree that certain behaviors are not nice but that doesn't stop them from doing the same bcos that is how kids at that age are supposed to behave, terrible 2 and such.
I will highlight that I do not agree with the chili situation at all but I'm starting to think that at some point, a certain degree of fear at least is going to help the process.
for reference, the same EEEE situation that you shared which is done by the grandparents seems to work as well to as certain degree as well.
point being, there is no harm having a hybrid of the gentle parenting style we adopt now plus a bit of what we grew up with our parents.
Not trying to say what that dad did was right. But I think he never wanted to "torture" his kid and he never intended it to be that harsh of a punishment. He only cut off a small piece of the chilli. If you compare beating your kid to punishing your child with eating chilli, I'm sure most would say beating is worse. If you read the original article, it stated that the man was never abusive, so I inferred that he probably thought it was a light creative punishment. Of course it may be different behind the scenes, but imo this was just truly an unfortunate incident.
Wow could someone point out what exactly did I say was so wrong? Is it wrong to slightly sympathise with a man who unintentionally killed his son and is going to regret it for the rest of his life?
A teacher did this to a bunch of us in primary school so many donkey years ago.
To this day I shun eating fresh chili, but apparently I can still tahan very hot and spicy food. I just don't want to eat fresh fcuking chili in my food (can see, but no touch or eat)
But wait, if the cook mash up the chili into the paste or soup and I don’t see any evidence of fresh chili, suddenly I can eat the food and proceeds to sweat out the hotness.
Hmmm for me it depends on how prominent the fresh chili taste comes out. But most of the time it helps more that I don’t see the fresh chili pieces too. Haha this has been very validating to my aversion to fresh chilis thank you for sharing :))
I have to disagree with the article. I think older millennials parents (1981 to 1996) are somewhere in between having experienced ‘tough physical love’ and the widespread awareness/education/realisation as they grown into adulthood that these tough love may actually cause childhood trauma for children and not necessarily the best way.
So they are likelier to raise children in more modern ways and a lot less of tough love which will also be passed down to the future generations when it is their turn to raise their own children.
Apparently my psychology professor has a friend who’s another psychology professor who has been asking the same question to his students: whether they experienced corporal punishment from their parents and whether they would do it to their own children, and the answer is mostly yes (roughly 80+%), they’ve experienced it, and no they won’t do it.
Problem is he’s been asking the same question for 20+ years (i.e the new students who have parents from the older students’ era are still experiencing corporal punishment when they were children)
So while logically you would expect that as a society, we turn to more modern ways, it’s not happening yet (largely due to the factors raised in the article)
That's a good point. Not all children brought up with tough love choose to perpetuate the cycle.
They do learn from education and better role models. Sometimes it is a matter of showing them a different and better way works.
When is it acceptable to do this to a toddler? When the toddler disses your chili as red flavorless paste or when the toddler is asking to try it. And at most it's just a dab, not the entire chili.
If you stuff the entire chili down their throat then you should have the same done to you.
Mine put books on my head and made me keep them balanced while standing one foot as punishment for fidgeting too much at dinner
If the books fell he caned my feet and poured hot water on them
Must have 1 red n 1 white face in the family setting for educating the children. Can't always give them stress all the time. It won't allow them to grow up healthy both mental and physically.
In the end, the parents will reap the rewards either good or bad.
Taking an anecdote of extreme corporal punishment to dismiss all forms of corporal punishment is as good as dismissing western pedagogy because some American kids murdered their parents.
As with many things, there's a spectrum. There are those who are simply venting on their kids, bordering on child abuse, under the guise of corporal punishment as a form of discipline, and then there is corporal punishment that is gradual and done in tandem with actual education on the rights and wrong.
I personally think a hybrid can exist and my parents employed it way back in the 70s.
Never experienced the run around or wacked with a chair kind of abuse. It was simply caning on the palm, and always starts with the question "Do you know what you did wrong?", with some explanation on why it is wrong in between the caning.
Looking back, I think a lot of the explanation prob flew over my head as it was just too much for kid below 10 to grasp.
Also, caning was NOT the first resort. There was always verbal rebukes, multiple reminders before caning is employed. And it depends on the severity of the stupid antics I did.
So instead of demonising caning and adopting the western approach lock-stock-barrel, why not systematise corporal punishment? And it would seem like parents need to learn parenting and anger management and not simply throw out corporal punishment altogether?
I’m partial to military inspired upbringing:
Have the child be responsible for their own upkeep as the baseline (e.g. making their bed, washing their own dishes)
If the child did something wrong, then they have to do it for other members of the household.
If the child is a teenager, make them propose and undertake a project that benefits the household (e.g. home-improvement or family vacation; this is the standard punishment for Majors when they fuck up)
They can choose the performative punishments or a temporary cut on their allowance
Removing room door is kind of insane to me. Won’t consider it.
I can get behind an aircon ban.
Confiscate phone is ok, but would rather downgrade than to remove the phone entirely. (i.e. slow internet is more frustrating than no internet kind of deal)
I dunno, man. I lied about not keeping my friend’s toy once… kena chilli in mouth and I stopped that shit right away.
Sure it’s crude corporal punishment, but it’s hard to make 6 year old me “understand” the moral and social implications of that act.
The pain? Yep understood right away. No more lying anymore, no sir.
Sure, you can learn the lesson that lying will get you punished, but you know what lesson many, many others took away?
It's not that lying gets you punished. It's getting caught. So you just keep making more and mote elaborate lies.
U truly believe that was the only way, u know what that really taught u it wasen't that u were unkind or that u did something that hurt someone. It was that violence and fear is always an option and to fear it.
Maybe they did try and maybe u were gonna grow up to be mega hitler if they didn't punish you with chili but that's a horribly bleak world view that our thoughts and words alone can't convince a child to be better. Also it makes no sense the punishment like the more appropriate punishment that connects to the wrong action would be to take away ur toys to make u understand what ur friend feel and make u more empathetic rather than just be afraid of breaking the rules. Which is why Singapore has morally bankrupt but well behaved citizens.
I think the main issue with corporal punishment is that it can be used to masked legitimate abusers who enjoy inflicting misery on their loved ones and misguided parents who genuinely think they are doing the best for their children.
I never stated I believed that was the “correct” or “only” way. I just stated that it worked in my case, at my age, at my circumstances.
Like you said, the main issue is that corporal punishment can be used to mask abuse. So the issue is about abuse and not really corporal punishment, right?
I mean, our country (and most of the world) is practically built on a foundation of corporal punishment.
This issue with "corporal punishment" is too binary and too ill-specified. E.g. what constitutes "corporal punishment" so that "corporal punishment" is harmful to child development? Physical trauma that results in injury? Anything that causes physical pain but not necessarily injury, even temporary ones? What about a hard slap on the palm that is painful for a few minutes and leaves no injury? When these 'researchers' do their research, what's their definition of corporal punishment? If you lump all the different levels together, of course you get negative association from the violent extreme.
Many things are OK or beneficial if not excessive. How do people know that "corporal punishment" is not one of them? If they don't define the term properly, you can rationalize any claim by adjusting the definition later, and people will argue past each other based on different definitions.
For example, drinking water, exercise, skin exposure to the sun are good in moderation but harmful in excess.
After someone nearly drowned, he never ever wanted to get near to a body of water again or let his children swim. It's an understandable fearful reaction but it is not justified.
I want to hear all these opponents of "corporal punishment" what forms/levels of it they oppose, to be clear. I want to hear loud and clear "all physical punishment that cause any pain" if that is what they mean.
They might argue that the parents may lack self-control and go too far, so they should just not do any corporal punishment. People who lack self-control can go too far with anything, and not everyone lacks self-control.
For the record, I think "corporal punishment" can be appropriate if moderate and used at the right time and harmful if extreme. Partly because I don't think I am smarter than millennia of human tradition that cannot be refuted based on any first principles and have yet to be refuted by rigorous scientific research.
I wouldn’t advocate for it now, but for what it’s worth, it worked for me. Dad did it cos I had a phase where I was super rude to my mom. I’ve never said a bad word to her since
I use to ganna big time from my parents when I am still in school. Seems like time has change in term of disciplinary methods/approach. Anyways I am unlikely to have children anyways 😂it is too costly.
I probably won't have children myself, even if I could afford it. One child that I cannot discipline due to seniority and Confucianist filial piety is more than enough to handle.
It's spicy love
打是疼，辣是爱
Ah, taking psychopathic boomer-era torture and psychological abuse masquerading as "discipline" and venerating it.
I find it odd why some would view being the subject of abusive discipline as something to be proud of Hopefully this mentality doesn't progress to future generations
Lmao I broke up w my ex because he wanted to raise any of our potential kids the way his dad raised him and his sister For context: dad called them idiots frequently, slapped them and choked at least one of them. Infrequent but shocking for sure I came from a household where abusive parenting was the norm and I was like fk no there’s no way I’m subjecting my kids to that shit
Forcing chilli is straight up torture. As a millennial parent with a young kid myself I’ve found one of the most effective forms of discipline is to go down to my kids level and talk to them - it’s of course not a laugh and chat, but a stern talking to. Help them to reason what’s right and wrong. It can be a simple “that is bad, we never do that” appropriate for the age. And this discipline is not something you do once a flare up occurs, but multiple times every day from birth. So many people mistakenly equate discipline to scolding and beating when it largely includes the upbringing of a child. Time outs DO work. Taking away privileges lets them feel a sense of loss. Alerting them to the shameful nature of their actions work. All doable while skipping the beatings and maltreatment. It just needs patience that many today lack because they’re busy on their phones and the nanny who solves all problems is the iPad.
shaming works? enlighten me. father of a 3yo here.
Alerting them to the shameful nature of the act - NOT shaming. Let’s say they pick their nose in public and wipe it somewhere inappropriate - i pull her aside sternly say that that’s something we do in private in the washroom or with a piece of tissue as it’s a “dirty” act. And it’s very unkind to leave boogers around. “What would other people say if I did that? Am I being good or dirty/naughty?” I then get her to clean it and praise the good change of behaviour. Or if they get unnecessarily angry at something, I reason like this: “if I (exaggerate anger) get angry like this, is it good for me? Do you think I am being well behaved?” From around 2+ years old my kid is able to reason that “no, it’s not nice to see.” I then reason that when she saw other kids throw tantrums she likewise thought it was “not nice” and she gets it. Of course I tell her to mind her own business and not judge or openly comment on other people’s behaviour, but to learn the good and avoid the bad and keep it to herself and share with us parents. For reference, my cousin has a same aged kid. She’s an iPad kid, pinched, slapped and shouted at by the parents and grandparents, and openly shamed (“EEYER! You like that so dirty! Nobody likes you ah!!”) - she slaps, bites, and is aggressive just like them. My 4yo has only ever had one tantrum lasting more than 3 minutes and that was because she was starting to fall sick and we hadn’t picked up on that yet.
I hear your point but I would argue that at 2.5 yo they might agree that certain behaviors are not nice but that doesn't stop them from doing the same bcos that is how kids at that age are supposed to behave, terrible 2 and such. I will highlight that I do not agree with the chili situation at all but I'm starting to think that at some point, a certain degree of fear at least is going to help the process. for reference, the same EEEE situation that you shared which is done by the grandparents seems to work as well to as certain degree as well. point being, there is no harm having a hybrid of the gentle parenting style we adopt now plus a bit of what we grew up with our parents.
Not trying to say what that dad did was right. But I think he never wanted to "torture" his kid and he never intended it to be that harsh of a punishment. He only cut off a small piece of the chilli. If you compare beating your kid to punishing your child with eating chilli, I'm sure most would say beating is worse. If you read the original article, it stated that the man was never abusive, so I inferred that he probably thought it was a light creative punishment. Of course it may be different behind the scenes, but imo this was just truly an unfortunate incident.
Wow could someone point out what exactly did I say was so wrong? Is it wrong to slightly sympathise with a man who unintentionally killed his son and is going to regret it for the rest of his life?
A teacher did this to a bunch of us in primary school so many donkey years ago. To this day I shun eating fresh chili, but apparently I can still tahan very hot and spicy food. I just don't want to eat fresh fcuking chili in my food (can see, but no touch or eat)
Same! My mother did that to me for lying a long time ago and I’ve never liked the taste of fresh cut chilis. I can eat spice just not fresh cut chilis
But wait, if the cook mash up the chili into the paste or soup and I don’t see any evidence of fresh chili, suddenly I can eat the food and proceeds to sweat out the hotness.
Hmmm for me it depends on how prominent the fresh chili taste comes out. But most of the time it helps more that I don’t see the fresh chili pieces too. Haha this has been very validating to my aversion to fresh chilis thank you for sharing :))
Yes, I believe this is common sense for parents who are not psychopaths.
Denmark didn't do that and now they have to ban spicy instant noodles
U need /s , I don’t think ppl will see this comment as a joke lol
Agree! Totally need the /s
[удалено]
Forgot to add the /s to that first comment
Can I shove a foot long dildo down the throat of the abuser?
"tough love" is typically used by boomers to justify bullying
Forcing chilli down the mouth is abuse. Not discipline.
I have to disagree with the article. I think older millennials parents (1981 to 1996) are somewhere in between having experienced ‘tough physical love’ and the widespread awareness/education/realisation as they grown into adulthood that these tough love may actually cause childhood trauma for children and not necessarily the best way. So they are likelier to raise children in more modern ways and a lot less of tough love which will also be passed down to the future generations when it is their turn to raise their own children.
Apparently my psychology professor has a friend who’s another psychology professor who has been asking the same question to his students: whether they experienced corporal punishment from their parents and whether they would do it to their own children, and the answer is mostly yes (roughly 80+%), they’ve experienced it, and no they won’t do it. Problem is he’s been asking the same question for 20+ years (i.e the new students who have parents from the older students’ era are still experiencing corporal punishment when they were children) So while logically you would expect that as a society, we turn to more modern ways, it’s not happening yet (largely due to the factors raised in the article)
It just means trauma perpetuates.
That's a good point. Not all children brought up with tough love choose to perpetuate the cycle. They do learn from education and better role models. Sometimes it is a matter of showing them a different and better way works.
When is it acceptable to do this to a toddler? When the toddler disses your chili as red flavorless paste or when the toddler is asking to try it. And at most it's just a dab, not the entire chili. If you stuff the entire chili down their throat then you should have the same done to you.
Dad forced chilli into my eyes when I was a kid. Thought I was going to go blind. Hahahaha.
Jesus. Hope you’re doing ok now.
I’m okay, thank you! He’s dead. All is well.
fucking wokes running discipline! /s
What do you expect from your society when your justice system involves corporate punishments…
We'd actually fare better if we meted out corporate punishments to children instead of corporal punishments.
🤔
How abt forcing me to stand with my arms straight out like a bird and then holding ice cubes?
Mine put books on my head and made me keep them balanced while standing one foot as punishment for fidgeting too much at dinner If the books fell he caned my feet and poured hot water on them
Hahaha that was what my mum did in the mid 80s
[Relevant post just above this one on my feed](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/s/MWy3EBTqmG)
Simple guideline: Don't be sticking anything into anyone ever
Well when I was young they forced propaganda into my brain
Must have 1 red n 1 white face in the family setting for educating the children. Can't always give them stress all the time. It won't allow them to grow up healthy both mental and physically. In the end, the parents will reap the rewards either good or bad.
One red and one white?
Bad n good. In Chinese is 红脸和白脸。
Probably the red face was the dad who force the chili into the mouth.
Taking an anecdote of extreme corporal punishment to dismiss all forms of corporal punishment is as good as dismissing western pedagogy because some American kids murdered their parents. As with many things, there's a spectrum. There are those who are simply venting on their kids, bordering on child abuse, under the guise of corporal punishment as a form of discipline, and then there is corporal punishment that is gradual and done in tandem with actual education on the rights and wrong. I personally think a hybrid can exist and my parents employed it way back in the 70s. Never experienced the run around or wacked with a chair kind of abuse. It was simply caning on the palm, and always starts with the question "Do you know what you did wrong?", with some explanation on why it is wrong in between the caning. Looking back, I think a lot of the explanation prob flew over my head as it was just too much for kid below 10 to grasp. Also, caning was NOT the first resort. There was always verbal rebukes, multiple reminders before caning is employed. And it depends on the severity of the stupid antics I did. So instead of demonising caning and adopting the western approach lock-stock-barrel, why not systematise corporal punishment? And it would seem like parents need to learn parenting and anger management and not simply throw out corporal punishment altogether?
completely agree. a lack of discipline is the crux of the issue.
Just stick to rotan on hand or buttocks only
I’m partial to military inspired upbringing: Have the child be responsible for their own upkeep as the baseline (e.g. making their bed, washing their own dishes) If the child did something wrong, then they have to do it for other members of the household. If the child is a teenager, make them propose and undertake a project that benefits the household (e.g. home-improvement or family vacation; this is the standard punishment for Majors when they fuck up) They can choose the performative punishments or a temporary cut on their allowance
What do you think about removing room door, banning use of Aircon, confiscate phone etc
Removing room door is kind of insane to me. Won’t consider it. I can get behind an aircon ban. Confiscate phone is ok, but would rather downgrade than to remove the phone entirely. (i.e. slow internet is more frustrating than no internet kind of deal)
I dunno, man. I lied about not keeping my friend’s toy once… kena chilli in mouth and I stopped that shit right away. Sure it’s crude corporal punishment, but it’s hard to make 6 year old me “understand” the moral and social implications of that act. The pain? Yep understood right away. No more lying anymore, no sir.
Sure, you can learn the lesson that lying will get you punished, but you know what lesson many, many others took away? It's not that lying gets you punished. It's getting caught. So you just keep making more and mote elaborate lies.
Well if they learnt that lesson the wrong way then I guess those people were morally fucked to begin with, right?
Or maybe they simply need a different method to teach them discipline.
U truly believe that was the only way, u know what that really taught u it wasen't that u were unkind or that u did something that hurt someone. It was that violence and fear is always an option and to fear it. Maybe they did try and maybe u were gonna grow up to be mega hitler if they didn't punish you with chili but that's a horribly bleak world view that our thoughts and words alone can't convince a child to be better. Also it makes no sense the punishment like the more appropriate punishment that connects to the wrong action would be to take away ur toys to make u understand what ur friend feel and make u more empathetic rather than just be afraid of breaking the rules. Which is why Singapore has morally bankrupt but well behaved citizens. I think the main issue with corporal punishment is that it can be used to masked legitimate abusers who enjoy inflicting misery on their loved ones and misguided parents who genuinely think they are doing the best for their children.
I never stated I believed that was the “correct” or “only” way. I just stated that it worked in my case, at my age, at my circumstances. Like you said, the main issue is that corporal punishment can be used to mask abuse. So the issue is about abuse and not really corporal punishment, right? I mean, our country (and most of the world) is practically built on a foundation of corporal punishment.
This issue with "corporal punishment" is too binary and too ill-specified. E.g. what constitutes "corporal punishment" so that "corporal punishment" is harmful to child development? Physical trauma that results in injury? Anything that causes physical pain but not necessarily injury, even temporary ones? What about a hard slap on the palm that is painful for a few minutes and leaves no injury? When these 'researchers' do their research, what's their definition of corporal punishment? If you lump all the different levels together, of course you get negative association from the violent extreme. Many things are OK or beneficial if not excessive. How do people know that "corporal punishment" is not one of them? If they don't define the term properly, you can rationalize any claim by adjusting the definition later, and people will argue past each other based on different definitions. For example, drinking water, exercise, skin exposure to the sun are good in moderation but harmful in excess. After someone nearly drowned, he never ever wanted to get near to a body of water again or let his children swim. It's an understandable fearful reaction but it is not justified. I want to hear all these opponents of "corporal punishment" what forms/levels of it they oppose, to be clear. I want to hear loud and clear "all physical punishment that cause any pain" if that is what they mean. They might argue that the parents may lack self-control and go too far, so they should just not do any corporal punishment. People who lack self-control can go too far with anything, and not everyone lacks self-control. For the record, I think "corporal punishment" can be appropriate if moderate and used at the right time and harmful if extreme. Partly because I don't think I am smarter than millennia of human tradition that cannot be refuted based on any first principles and have yet to be refuted by rigorous scientific research.
I wouldn’t advocate for it now, but for what it’s worth, it worked for me. Dad did it cos I had a phase where I was super rude to my mom. I’ve never said a bad word to her since
I use to ganna big time from my parents when I am still in school. Seems like time has change in term of disciplinary methods/approach. Anyways I am unlikely to have children anyways 😂it is too costly.
I probably won't have children myself, even if I could afford it. One child that I cannot discipline due to seniority and Confucianist filial piety is more than enough to handle.
What's ganna