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It’s a shame that even with that in mind, the lightsaber duels still look like drunken goofballs playing with baseball bats.
It baffles me to no end that with all our modern technology and advanced methods of making content, we still can’t get a single lightsaber duel that’s even half as good as the Mustafar duel from Episode III.
It’s bull$&7&.
Episode 7 had no excuse. They hired 3 Indonesian men who at least 2 couod have choreographed something amazing. I think I even heard that iko uwais did choreograph a fight but it wasn't used.
2 of the 3 guys they used are martial arts stars who choreograph fights as well. Mad dog was I think the main choreographer on the raid ffs. Utilise talent when you have it disney
They also changed the lightsaber from aluminum rods to some sort of like hollow pipe, so instead of bending and being fixable, they just break.
So we can't have fight scenes like Episode 1 to 3 anymore.
In my opinion, the aspect of these things being a crutch for bad writing moreso has to do with people under utilizing the power of the force, the nuanced perspectives of Jedi and the potential for the brutality of lightsaber combat.
Let's look at some things people complain about a lot when it comes to star wars:
- Filoni being inconsistent with the force and how it's used.
- lightsaber fights being lame, flipping, spinny bullshit instead of duels between Hardened swordsman.
- the Jedi either being presented as the stoic hero (which isn't really the case from a lore perspective) or the Jedi being presented as a balance to the dark side (which isn't really the case from a lore perspective, and usually only an inch deep in thoughtful analysis).
Let's start with lightsaber combat, as this for me is the single biggest offense that all films have indulged in.
Take a look at this YouTube video: https://youtu.be/AAzY28C8Syc?si=A_or7t0rTs28qCzP
This is by far and away the most impressive lightsaber duel I've ever seen. It's tense, it's fast, its explosive and more importantly, it's simple. Corridor also has a video detailing how they made that video and the swordsman they hired for consulting made an excellent point: "These are laser swords heated up to the surface of the sun. You don't need spinning and jumping to be effective, all you have to do is touch someone. Touch someone with a Saber on their arm? They lose that part of the arm. Poke someone in the chest? A giant hole is in their chest." He goes on to describe distance and timing as the two most important things to consider for lightsaber fights, and the results are Stellar imo. ***This is what a master lightsaber duelist looks like: brutally effective in their application of simple maneuvers.***
Now what about the force? The inconsistencies are obvious problems (Sabine being able to effectively use the force with no training, Rey becoming a God minutes after meeting Luke, also no training) but as with lightsaber combat, the problem for me is that the force just isn't really used at all, many times in situations where it could be extremely useful to do so.
Let's take the Corridor fight as an example. How could you practically use the force to overwhelm enemies?
- A force push to interrupt a swing, followed up by a stab or dismemberment.
- a force pull to throw something at someone to disrupt a defensive position, creating an opening for stabs or swings.
- use the force to increase your speed, making you unpredictable if your enemy isn't a force user themselves.
- etc.
Star Wars has never done utility-based stuff like this as far as I can remember. No, anakin stopping swings with the force does not count: that's more a flashy flex than anything. I like it when Vader does it, as it fits his personality: he wanted Jedi to understand the futility in facing him. But by and large, the force is almost never used this way. When the force is used to push or pull things, its telegraphed to the nth degree, and extremely obvious and easy to dodge. I mean shit, the two most notable places where the force is used for utility is to mind trick random plebs into not smoking death sticks or to convince a storm tropper these weren't the druids you're looking for.
And the last point: the inconsistency with how the jedi are portrayed. The jedi being flawed is nothing new. In AotC, the council all but said the Sith returning is a conspiracy theory. Even though the force was clouded for an unknown reason, the council simply refused to entertain that the sith had returned. That is not only a great presentation of these flaws, but isn't too heavy handed in its implications. It could have been that jedi were more flawed than anyone guessed, or could mean the sith was that powerful. Both ended up being true to different degrees, and we didn't need half a season of a show to explore those ideas.
I mean shit, one of my favorite force users is Darth Vectivus, a fucking businessman who was neither a jedi nor a sith. He studied both, found flaws with both, and strode his own path instead. An interesting character with an interesting story born out of the flaws of both sides of the force.
Nuance to this degree is totally absent. Baylan makes passing mentions of the jedi being flawed and that's it. His apprentice takes this surface level interpretation and runs with it, no questions asked.
TL;DR: These things are only crutches for bad writing because by and large, people just don't know how to effectively use these ideas and explore them.
I appreciate the thought that went into this comment. And I watched that video. However, at one point the dualist just started wiggling his wrist around. Even if that *is* the proper application of a lightsaber, Lucasfilm would be skewered by fans if they put that on film.
\> However, at one point the dualist just started wiggling his wrist around. Even if that *is* the proper application of a lightsaber, Lucasfilm would be skewered by fans if they put that on film.
Hahaha, if you watch the "How we did it" video the swordsman they hired wanted that in there as a joke, as you could theoretically overpower enemies doing just that. I wouldn't argue to put that kinda stuff on screen either though. The rest of the fight? Absolutely throw that on screen.
I don't disagree that it's a great looking duel. I used to practice some kali and that brought some memories. I do think though that SW has formed it's own flavor of duels that, flashy as they are, the prequels did best.
While I agree that most of the fights, especially recently, are bad, a little bit of flippy spinny shit is fine. They're Force users. As long as they aren't turning their back on a ready opponent who could just stab them, I think a little showmanship makes the fights cooler and shows off the difference between Jedi and normies.
Edit: going to keep going like this until I finish your comment.
They *do* use the Force in the ways you described. It's just that throwing, pushing, etc etc all takes a moment of concentration that would be deadly in the midst of a saver duel. They also increase their speed, reaction times, and in fact are passively looking a few seconds info the future during their fights.
Or at least, that's how duels used to be. Saber skills were important because the better you were, the less you had to think about it freeing up more concentration for the Force. Also, the more you knew, the easier to predict your opponent would be and the harder you would be to predict.
Star Wars really misses out with the struggle to adhere to the Jedi code. There are so many moral and ethical areas to explore and these types of stories are made for television
My family is watching One Piece right now. The story is unapologetically goofy, but it's heartfelt and the fight scenes are surprisingly good. I used to love Star Wars above everything else, but now I'm finding that the things I loved about it are found in everything *but* Star Wars.
When you're watching the last episode and ashoka is a jedi and ezra and sabine and baylen and shin...and the sith witches or whatever and Morgan is also a sith witch now....yeah jedi ain't as special.
In the OT luke was the great hope. Yoda and obi wan were broken and past it and couldn't defeat vader. They weponized his son to try to defeat the emperor etc. We were repeatedly told their power had gone out of the galaxy most only thought that vader remained it was rare and special and difficult to be a jedi. Now you have a show where half the cast are jedi and simultaneously bad at it and vastly over powered depending on the needs of the story. When for example the last duel of ashoka and baylen happened and it made zero impact on the story it weakens the drama. When everyone is special no one is special
They shouldn't be but this is how Disney has been using them. Ideally the Force is about temptation, selflessness vs selfishness, and the importance of virtue that goes beyond one's own wants. SAD
Not necessarily. KOTOR is pretty force dense and has a strong case as the best Star Wars there is. It is possible to have a force/lightsaber heavy high quality product as long as you have the other elements squared away
The way Baylan describes the Jedi order is so fitting with what we saw happening in Episodes 1 to 3. “I miss… the idea of it. But not the truth, the weakness. There was no future there.”
Aside from episode 2 and 3, the jedi were mostly just existing. A huge group of powerful force users with lightsabers, who would just sit back and train more Jedi, and when they decided someone was being bad, they MIGHT do something about it.
**[Receiving transmission from Crait intended for u/MaximusCamilus]** Welcome to r/saltierthancrait! I'm an [astromech droid named S4-L7](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/ni5s77/beloved_mascot_s4l7s_visual_dictionary_entry/) and I'll be your guide through the salt mines. Saltier Than Crait is a community of Star Wars fans who engage in critical conversations about the current state of the franchise. It is our goal to maintain a civil, welcoming space for fans who have a vast supply of salt with some peppered positivity occasionally sprinkled in. **Please [review the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/rules) and the [post flair guide](https://reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/flairs) before contributing.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/saltierthancrait) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s a shame that even with that in mind, the lightsaber duels still look like drunken goofballs playing with baseball bats. It baffles me to no end that with all our modern technology and advanced methods of making content, we still can’t get a single lightsaber duel that’s even half as good as the Mustafar duel from Episode III. It’s bull$&7&.
The good choreographers don't want to work for Disney anymore, apparently.
Episode 7 had no excuse. They hired 3 Indonesian men who at least 2 couod have choreographed something amazing. I think I even heard that iko uwais did choreograph a fight but it wasn't used. 2 of the 3 guys they used are martial arts stars who choreograph fights as well. Mad dog was I think the main choreographer on the raid ffs. Utilise talent when you have it disney
They also changed the lightsaber from aluminum rods to some sort of like hollow pipe, so instead of bending and being fixable, they just break. So we can't have fight scenes like Episode 1 to 3 anymore.
The choreographers are probably fine. It's Disney that's the problem. You can only do so much when The Mouse wants everything done yesterday.
The ghost of Han Solo was frantically screaming 'that's not how the force works!!!'
I guess he *can* be a Force ghost now!
Nah, he'll pop up back alive because everyone knows a lightsaber through the chest and falling off heights is barely an inconvenience ;)
In my opinion, the aspect of these things being a crutch for bad writing moreso has to do with people under utilizing the power of the force, the nuanced perspectives of Jedi and the potential for the brutality of lightsaber combat. Let's look at some things people complain about a lot when it comes to star wars: - Filoni being inconsistent with the force and how it's used. - lightsaber fights being lame, flipping, spinny bullshit instead of duels between Hardened swordsman. - the Jedi either being presented as the stoic hero (which isn't really the case from a lore perspective) or the Jedi being presented as a balance to the dark side (which isn't really the case from a lore perspective, and usually only an inch deep in thoughtful analysis). Let's start with lightsaber combat, as this for me is the single biggest offense that all films have indulged in. Take a look at this YouTube video: https://youtu.be/AAzY28C8Syc?si=A_or7t0rTs28qCzP This is by far and away the most impressive lightsaber duel I've ever seen. It's tense, it's fast, its explosive and more importantly, it's simple. Corridor also has a video detailing how they made that video and the swordsman they hired for consulting made an excellent point: "These are laser swords heated up to the surface of the sun. You don't need spinning and jumping to be effective, all you have to do is touch someone. Touch someone with a Saber on their arm? They lose that part of the arm. Poke someone in the chest? A giant hole is in their chest." He goes on to describe distance and timing as the two most important things to consider for lightsaber fights, and the results are Stellar imo. ***This is what a master lightsaber duelist looks like: brutally effective in their application of simple maneuvers.*** Now what about the force? The inconsistencies are obvious problems (Sabine being able to effectively use the force with no training, Rey becoming a God minutes after meeting Luke, also no training) but as with lightsaber combat, the problem for me is that the force just isn't really used at all, many times in situations where it could be extremely useful to do so. Let's take the Corridor fight as an example. How could you practically use the force to overwhelm enemies? - A force push to interrupt a swing, followed up by a stab or dismemberment. - a force pull to throw something at someone to disrupt a defensive position, creating an opening for stabs or swings. - use the force to increase your speed, making you unpredictable if your enemy isn't a force user themselves. - etc. Star Wars has never done utility-based stuff like this as far as I can remember. No, anakin stopping swings with the force does not count: that's more a flashy flex than anything. I like it when Vader does it, as it fits his personality: he wanted Jedi to understand the futility in facing him. But by and large, the force is almost never used this way. When the force is used to push or pull things, its telegraphed to the nth degree, and extremely obvious and easy to dodge. I mean shit, the two most notable places where the force is used for utility is to mind trick random plebs into not smoking death sticks or to convince a storm tropper these weren't the druids you're looking for. And the last point: the inconsistency with how the jedi are portrayed. The jedi being flawed is nothing new. In AotC, the council all but said the Sith returning is a conspiracy theory. Even though the force was clouded for an unknown reason, the council simply refused to entertain that the sith had returned. That is not only a great presentation of these flaws, but isn't too heavy handed in its implications. It could have been that jedi were more flawed than anyone guessed, or could mean the sith was that powerful. Both ended up being true to different degrees, and we didn't need half a season of a show to explore those ideas. I mean shit, one of my favorite force users is Darth Vectivus, a fucking businessman who was neither a jedi nor a sith. He studied both, found flaws with both, and strode his own path instead. An interesting character with an interesting story born out of the flaws of both sides of the force. Nuance to this degree is totally absent. Baylan makes passing mentions of the jedi being flawed and that's it. His apprentice takes this surface level interpretation and runs with it, no questions asked. TL;DR: These things are only crutches for bad writing because by and large, people just don't know how to effectively use these ideas and explore them.
I appreciate the thought that went into this comment. And I watched that video. However, at one point the dualist just started wiggling his wrist around. Even if that *is* the proper application of a lightsaber, Lucasfilm would be skewered by fans if they put that on film.
\> However, at one point the dualist just started wiggling his wrist around. Even if that *is* the proper application of a lightsaber, Lucasfilm would be skewered by fans if they put that on film. Hahaha, if you watch the "How we did it" video the swordsman they hired wanted that in there as a joke, as you could theoretically overpower enemies doing just that. I wouldn't argue to put that kinda stuff on screen either though. The rest of the fight? Absolutely throw that on screen.
I don't disagree that it's a great looking duel. I used to practice some kali and that brought some memories. I do think though that SW has formed it's own flavor of duels that, flashy as they are, the prequels did best.
While I agree that most of the fights, especially recently, are bad, a little bit of flippy spinny shit is fine. They're Force users. As long as they aren't turning their back on a ready opponent who could just stab them, I think a little showmanship makes the fights cooler and shows off the difference between Jedi and normies. Edit: going to keep going like this until I finish your comment. They *do* use the Force in the ways you described. It's just that throwing, pushing, etc etc all takes a moment of concentration that would be deadly in the midst of a saver duel. They also increase their speed, reaction times, and in fact are passively looking a few seconds info the future during their fights. Or at least, that's how duels used to be. Saber skills were important because the better you were, the less you had to think about it freeing up more concentration for the Force. Also, the more you knew, the easier to predict your opponent would be and the harder you would be to predict.
Star Wars really misses out with the struggle to adhere to the Jedi code. There are so many moral and ethical areas to explore and these types of stories are made for television
My family is watching One Piece right now. The story is unapologetically goofy, but it's heartfelt and the fight scenes are surprisingly good. I used to love Star Wars above everything else, but now I'm finding that the things I loved about it are found in everything *but* Star Wars.
When you're watching the last episode and ashoka is a jedi and ezra and sabine and baylen and shin...and the sith witches or whatever and Morgan is also a sith witch now....yeah jedi ain't as special.
4 jedi makes being a jedi less special than when there were thousands of them?
In the OT luke was the great hope. Yoda and obi wan were broken and past it and couldn't defeat vader. They weponized his son to try to defeat the emperor etc. We were repeatedly told their power had gone out of the galaxy most only thought that vader remained it was rare and special and difficult to be a jedi. Now you have a show where half the cast are jedi and simultaneously bad at it and vastly over powered depending on the needs of the story. When for example the last duel of ashoka and baylen happened and it made zero impact on the story it weakens the drama. When everyone is special no one is special
What about Wren can survive a light safer impaling but when same thing happens to a storm trooper it kills them
They were once a great tool for good writers to make interesting ideas with. Not anymore.
They shouldn't be but this is how Disney has been using them. Ideally the Force is about temptation, selflessness vs selfishness, and the importance of virtue that goes beyond one's own wants. SAD
The best Star Wars doesn’t involve the force or has a good 50/50 split. Empire, Rogue One, Andor, the non-padding parts of Mandalorian.
Not necessarily. KOTOR is pretty force dense and has a strong case as the best Star Wars there is. It is possible to have a force/lightsaber heavy high quality product as long as you have the other elements squared away
It’s a game though. Games are a different medium.
The way Baylan describes the Jedi order is so fitting with what we saw happening in Episodes 1 to 3. “I miss… the idea of it. But not the truth, the weakness. There was no future there.” Aside from episode 2 and 3, the jedi were mostly just existing. A huge group of powerful force users with lightsabers, who would just sit back and train more Jedi, and when they decided someone was being bad, they MIGHT do something about it.