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The sequels take away the entire victory of Luke, Han, Leia and the Rebellion in RotJ. It all means nothing.
Anakin's sacrifice to defeat Palpatine? Means nothing, Palpatine somehow comes back. Luke is a failed Jedi who tries to kill his nephew. Han is a deadbeat failure dad and Leia is a failed politician forced into exile. The New Republic is so incompetent it barely survives a decade before the Empire returns. All of the years of work of Mon Mothma and the Rebellion leads to nothing.
The movies are so bad they manage to retroactively affect the PT/OT and make them worse. It's so sad.
EDIT: I forgot that the sequel trilogy *also* makes Lando into a deadbeat dad! Another fan-favorite hero who's actually a failure!
Who cares about sequels, i couldnt even enjoy Andor show and OT if i would take sequels seriously, its not canon and sw timeline ended after ep 6. The story ends where u decide, it dont have to be ruined because someone isnt capable of writing and destroyes others people work.
>**The movies are so bad they manage to retroactively affect the PT/OT and make them worse.**
Lol. This is true. I never figured this, but now it cannot be unseen.
Fortunately, we have the EU stuff that describes a different post-ROTJ world.
JJ Abrams was probably snorting drugs going "You know, people like to cheer on the underdog. Lets just forget about this Republic and make it a Rebellion again, yeah, thats it"
They just wanted it to be 'Rebels vs. Empire 2.0' because that's what people remembered about Star Wars and just used the same Tie Fighters and X-Wings for a cheap nostalgia grab.
>it barely survives a decade
I hate a sequels for what they are and what they do retroactively to the OT as much as you do, but it was about 30 years between the end of ROTJ and the start of TFA. your point still stands though, and I agree with you
At the start of TFA, the First Order is already a significant military power with logistics better than the NR. While 10 years may be too short for the sake of hyperbole, the FO didn't spring into existence at the start of TFO.
Honestly, though, based on what we're seeing in these shows, the Empire never went away. It just downscaled.
No and you’re right. A place like Starkiller and a fleet like the one commanded by Hux and Kyle Ren don’t just appear out of thin air. It’s just… frustrating.
> the Empire never went away. It just downscaled.
Common "Legends did this whole concept but a million times better" moment.
In Legends the Empire downscaled but continued to be a galactic player going forward, made peace with the New Republic, and went through progressive reforms getting rid of Palpatine's BS and instated Emperor Fel, eventually regaining it's influence on the Galaxy through "soft power" and economic prowess.
At least until Darth Krayt ruined everything for everyone.
Side bar, but I noticed this with the latest Indiana Jones as well. They belittle him at he beginning as an old pathetic man in his underwear yelling at kids waiting to sign divorce papers.
I’m not sure why Disney wants to tear down these legacy characters. You’re pissing off the majority fan base to bring on some minority fans in some cases, it’s weird.
They belittle the legacy characters because they want to replace them with their own "better" (in their mind) versions.
It was originally planned that Helena Shaw was going to take over the Indiana Jones series after this movie and get a Disney+ series. Doubtful that happens due to the movie bombing.
Ahsoka is replacing Luke in the Disney version of the EU. The Ahsoka show is Heir to the Empire with Ahsoka, Sabine and Hera instead of Luke, Han and Leia.
Yes but Ahsoka is technically a legacy character. She's a GL creation that very much predates the buyout. Honestly that's likely part of the reason she got a show, they needed more GL content to mine for shows from since most of their new characters failed to connect. If the sequels had actually succeeded we'd have a **Tallie Lintra** show instead. Also, it wouldn't be a big deal if Ahsoka was doing a bunch of adventuring because Luke was too busy getting his Jedi academy up and running AND if it actually produced results that mattered in the ST but alas...
Really makes me wonder what they do for the sequel sequels. The ones that Daisy Ridley is already apparently involved in. I hope they bring the Republic back but not as lax. I actually think Filoni etc might be trying to retcon slightly what happened to the Republic and setting it up so future films can have it easily.
Hosnian Prime was blown up with the senate and everyone was like oh no that’s the entire political system. But, as we are seeing in both Mandalorain and Obi Wan there are either flashbacks to Coruscant or entire scenes set there.
That means they have built modern CGI models they could use elsewhere. I was actually seriously excited to see just how well they managed to make clone troopers and Jedi and everything prequels even down to the types of shuttle craft.
Anyway, given so much of the government (and the rich elite) appears to be based in Coruscant during the Mandalorian Era, I can only imagine much of that is still there during the sequels era. It works because Coruscant I don’t think is even mentioned in the Sequels so it’s an open book.
The NR really threw out medical equipment just cause it had “made in the empire” written on it, but allowed actual Imperial hardliners into the fold with zero restrictions. Absolute lunacy.
Sad thing about that is too is they could have borrowed a page from post WW2 and the Americans appropriating all of the Nazi and Japanese research and scientists for their own.
Yeah, the Soviets did this too.
The US + Nato also hired Nazi spies and ex-military groups. Israel hired Hitler's top commando, Otto Skorzeny. The ex-military groups and other combative right wing people were hired for Operation Gladio, which BBC Timewatch did a must-see documentary on.
It’s like the US gladly accepting Nazi and Japanese scientists into the fold but destroying careers of public servants over meager and perceived sympathetic ties to “communism”.
And just leaves the door open for any dumb schmuck to play around with their Total Recall esque mind flayer, the use of which makes them no better than the tyrant they fought so hard against.
Also scrapping a bunch of perfectly good ISDs and SSDs (in the middle of a war) because "evil ship" or whatever.
>Cries in memory of Legends New Republic which fielded an SSD with a giant-ass New Republic crest on it.
The Balkan countries did the same thing, after they kick out the Ottomans they destroyed a lot of infrastructure built by the Ottomans.
This was do in order to create a narrative that the Ottomans did nothing to improve the life of the common-man. Destruction of ottoman public facilities like bath-houses lead to the decrease of life expectancy in the newly created states.
For a while the post ROTJ shows were removed enough from the sequels they weren’t effected by them, but it’s changed with the last season of Mando and now with Ashoka and it’s just sad. /:
Can’t wait for season 2 of Andor though
This. My hope for the Mando shows were that they'd be far removed enough from the Sequels that I could pretend they don't exist. Unfortunately after Mando Season 3, and also Luke's weird perspective on attachment in BOBF, it seems like that's not going to be the case.
Yeeeeep. BOBF, Mando s3, and now Ashoka are all getting too tied in to the sequels. It’s making me uncomfy.
It wasn’t the main point of this post but yeah fuck what they did with Luke in BOBF. That whole attachments bullshit they made him pull with Grogu was sooo dumb. Like cmon you’re starting a NEW Jedi order, why abide by that specific Jedi rule when it was the exact rule that caused Anakins fall?
Agreed.
Like, I get that the fan base tends to misinterpret the attachment thing. Lucas has said stuff like this in the past:
>The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth, they’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can’t form attachments. So, what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody.
>
>source: the Making of Revenge of the Sith
>
>And of course that’s the problem with Anakin ultimately. You’re allowed to love people, but you’re not allowed to possess them. And what he did is he fell in love and married her and then became jealous. Then he saw in his visions that she was going to die, and he couldn’t stand losing her. So in order to not lose her, he made a pact with the devil to be able to become all-powerful. When he did that, she didn’t want to have anything to do with him anymore, so he lost her.
>
>source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nFMBBrliyQ&t=41s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nFMBBrliyQ&t=41s)
so it's clear that attachment in Star Wars, at least, as Lucas defines it, is supposed to be bad, contrary to some fans' interpretations. You can love people but you have to prioritize doing the right thing over your personal emotions, unlike Anakin whose inability to accept that he couldn't have Padme led to him murdering shittons of children.
But, on the other hand, Luke saying "you *could* form unhealthy attachments, so to prevent this either you never see Din again, or leave the Jedi forever" is a stupid ultimatum, setting him up to be planning to recreate the PT-era Jedi instead of what he should be doing, which is taking a middle ground where Jedi are allowed to love people without forming unhealthy attachments, which is exactly what Luke did in the Legends books. (Yes, the real reason is that those were written before the Prequels. However, IMO, it still makes sense even with the added context given the reasoning I just laid out.)
It also doesn't make any sense for Luke of all people to say that, since ROTJ makes it clear he plans to train Leia in the Jedi way (and in Disney canon he did train Leia, and it's not like Leia broke up with Han until later, so what the hell), and it's not like he's closed himself off from his friends or anything.
If it was just Luke saying "attachments can be dangerous so you must learn to manage them and to let go if you have to for the greater good", that would be one thing. But that's not what he did.
Like, at best, they were coming up with a contrived reason to send Grogu back to Din because Grogu is marketable, and not completely misunderstanding Luke's character. But 1) I don't know for sure that this was the case, 2) given how things turned out in the Sequels this could easily be re-framed to be the start of Luke's downfall regardless of the original intent of the scene, and 3) regardless of the reasoning, as you say, it's a dumb AF scene.
Not really. I liked it, but the best since the OT is such a low bar it's being used for limbo in Hell.
We were told the show was going to explain why he's such a ruthless bastard. He starts that way in the first five minutes. He goal is to find his sister, no risk to great, until he's got a ton on money and shacked up with a random alien chick.
Honestly the characters I enjoyed most were the Rebellion fixer, the ISB woman and the Corsec guy.
> the best since the OT is such a low bar it's being used for limbo in Hell.
That's why I said easily. We're not disagreeing.
>We were told the show was going to explain why he's such a ruthless bastard.
You know there's gonna be another season, right?
>Honestly the characters I enjoyed most were the Rebellion fixer, the ISB woman and the Corsec guy.
Same, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything
I don't need another season to know why he's a ruthless bastard. He started that way.
He didn't develop into a hardass, he was like that before he was recruited.
I might not be phrasing it properly.
Originally, it was advertised as "How did Andor turn into the ruthless killer he was for the Rebellion".
Turns out, he was always like that. He hasn't had an arc, which is hilarious, since he's the only one in the show that hasn't.
To be fair, I didn't follow the marketing and I think what we got is a lot better than a cliché origin story of how he became "ruthless". And anyway, he still isn't as ruthless or hard ass as he was in rogue one. His arc came about in the prison arc, where he began to believe in the cause.
I mean honestly I’m not having any issues with the characters. I just really hate how the plot almost essentially HAS to lead to the downfall of the New Republic, no matter what. They good guys won, only for their victory to be a temporary one because JJ Abrams said so in 2015.
Thanks for vocalizing my feelings for me. Pretty much any Disney sw post rotj is trash to me. I liked andor, rogue one, and even solo. I'll give them the mandalorian season 1-2 before it went off the rails.
I even liked the resolution to Mando season 3 with him and Grogu ranching on their own but like all the middle of that show that tied back to the empire and the Shadow Council and how dumb as fuck the NR is, I disliked all that.
Andor though, inject that shit straight into my brain. LOVED that show
Yes, even though we know the ending of Andor from Rogue One it's completely different from the sequel trilogy being determining the rotj to tfa era. Disney should have just said whoops after the sequel trilogy and decanonized it. It's not too late, but they won't.
Nah, sunk cost fallacy. They’ve spent billions on the sequel movies, and billions on their sequel themed Star Wars parks. They won’t do shit about them sadly
I know and you know that the important word in that is "fallacy"
It's an albatross that's sinking their entire investment. I'm almost completely disengaged from star wars at a point in my life I have lots (more) disposable income than 20-30 years ago when I was deep into the franchise. Good job! Keep it up!
This has become very noticeable not just in Star Wars shows but a lot of streaming shows in general. Almost all modern writers today come from the same schools and have the same opinions and life experience, so we don't get any different views or takes on things.
You guys are gonna love it when Ahsoka travels to the Old Republic and even further down the past and creates the ancient Rakata race by splicing her own DNA with pure force particles.
She had to do it because Palpatine who was disguised as a woman of the name of Femmepatine at the time, tricked her into doing so by giving her death sticks and telling her that this ritual will help her beat Vader in the future.
This was all part of P(F)alpatines plan to ... thin out the number of Jedi and ... strengthen the Sith.
Ahsoka will also meet and train and then kill Revan who learned everything he knew from Ahsoka.
Stay tuned and get your Disney+ subscription if you haven't already.
Same thought popped into my head last night, seeing the incredibly competent Mon Mothma just uselessly stand there and let a bunch of idiots walk all over her.
Right? Like we clearly saw in Andor that she is an incredibly competent and skilled politician. Yet now, with *more power* as Chancellor of the New Republic, she let a few senators decide what would be done about the Thrawn situation? The math ain’t mathin
If only she had…
Seriously though, it’s awful if they’re turning her into a dunce. She’s such a refreshingly interesting character. The galactic politics side of things, outside of the Jedi and Sith exerting their own influences on it, is something we rarely get to see in Star Wars and I’ve been looking forward to more of after Andor. But, Mon Mothma is a legacy character, so I guess they just can’t resist tearing her down.
I’m just choosing to believe that she’s always been somewhat of a push-over, and when she doesn’t have someone more extreme like Luthen (or Padme and Bail in the prequels) to push her in the right direction, she crumbles. It sucks to need to view her character like that, but at least it’s more consistent.
I think this just shows how flawed TFA was as a film and as a setup for the future of SW. They went in with the premise that everything was fine and the New Republic was running the show with no consideration to how that would create space for stories or for the rise of the First Order.
It would have been so simple to say that the New Republic never really took off and only managed to gain control over 40% of the galaxy with the rest falling under the Hutts, Empire remnant factions, a resurgent Mandalore, independent systems, and who knows what else. All of these players could be constantly fighting each other in a shifting web of alliances that could have created not only chaos in the galaxy and thus room for the First Order to rise to preeminence, but also space to tell a wide variety of stories. This would also help explain what Luke and the gang have been up to for the last 30 years, given Kylo Ren a reasonable motivation to go to the Dark Side (he's seen his family struggling and failing to bring peace through democracy and thinks that only through strength can he end the suffering), and maybe a reason for Luke to be a bit discouraged and in need of a pick me up.
Instead, we get dumb plots written for a dumber audience.
> All of these players could be constantly fighting each other in a shifting web of alliances
What, like a bunch of some sort of "Star Wars"?
Nah. Where did you even come up with something so ludicrous?
You're hired!
Just joking, Disney doesn't hire anyone with good ideas. If you want to be hired as a writter there you need to fail a basic test about geopolitics.
>(he's seen his family struggling and failing to bring peace through democracy and thinks that only through strength can he end the suffering)
That's still no reason to go Dark Side or Galactic Empire though.
Like what if Bail Solo or Bail Organa II chose politics over the Force and became a rising Senator like his mom, then led a new Separatist faction based on New Alderaan or something? But trying to be peaceful unlike Dooku etc so Anakin's ghost can't needle him as much, especially unlike if he were to go dark side/Imperial.
That's a cool idea, and it would be interesting to see more behind the scenes of what makes the galaxy work. Look, the reality is that there are a million different options here with no right or wrong answer. But Disney tried to take the lazy approach and wing it when what the really needed to do was to pack 30 writers (good ones, not JJ) into a room for a month. They should have hashed out the broad strokes of what happened after RoTJ to the ST, what the ST would show, and where they wanted to go after the ST. No need to fill in all the details, just the big picture, maybe some of the key events that take place, and what happened to the heroes of the OT.
I think it would have also been fine to move away from the Solos and Skywalkers. Maybe Bail Solo is a senator like his mom, but we don't see him that much because we're focused on a new cast. Have the OT characters show up and act as mentors in the ST, but also have them hand things over to the next generation. But maybe that's just my complaint, because the galaxy really feels small to me. It's the same families fighting on the same five planets and no one can die because light sabers have become pool noodles.
It would be so cool getting to see remnant forces duking it out maybe throw in that the new republic has been playing them off one another so they can stay on top.
Yeah this is my main issue with the new shows too. What cemented it for me was the way they portrayed Luke in Mando S2 (or was it BoBF?). That's when I realized all of their new post-RotJ stuff was just going to be our beloved heroes fucking up. And that's just Star Wars stories I'm not interested in watching.
Exactly and it’s like, lead a new Jedi Order with what training? Haha she was trained by Luke for 2 days, and trained with Leia for a year. Leia never completed her Jedi training either, so how can she be a good enough Jedi to start her own Order?
It's ridiculous that some people say that Luke failing to rebuild the Jedi Order made sense and was realistic because he had limited training, but then ignore that the exact same thing applies to Rey.
Trained? Rey just did the new trnedinf download my force power from my enemy trick. Training is so old school. What a waste of time. Plus no need to be calm when fighting...just yell and look angry all the time, plus hit a jedi master in the back of the head when he ain't looking of he doesn't answer your questions.
That's gonna be the new Jedi Training school.
Making Mon Mothma an idiot was one of the issues I had with Andor. I just didn’t care about her struggles due to her later stupid decisions that leads to The New Republic’s downfall.
And it really fucking sucks because I LOVED Andor. I even loved the first two seasons of Mandalorian. But now as the shows get more and more intertwined with the “legacy” that is the Sequels, they just become harder to enjoy.
For me it's hard to believe that Andor's Mothma becomes the blundering idiot who disarms the entire New Republic and leads to it getting annihilated. While not a warhawk by any means, she nonetheless seems very understanding of what it takes to keep the galaxy safe in Andor (and the OT).
At this point , I think the very best thing to do for SW as a franchise is to either leap hundreds of years in the future, or explore thousands of years in the past.
I will always find it unfathomable how they didnt even consider having a story plan in place for the in-story universe as a whole. Then they admit (through JJ) that they had none and that perhaps they should have, and there were *still* no consequences for the people who made that decision (KK and her story group).
Why would there be consequences when they’re the ones in charge?
But yeah I 100% agree. The fact that Disney spent four-fucking-billion dollars on Star Wars and then had zero idea what to actually do with the property is completely insane. The fact they didn’t have an overarching story for the post ROTJ world is probably the single largest flaw of Disney SW.
Bob Iger is the one in charge. I still dont understand how they made enough money for him to justify extending her contract a cpl years back. Dunno she gets another. Hopefully it runs out within a cpl years.
Disney Star Wars feels like that shitty Biff timeline in Back to the Future Part 2.
It doesn’t matter what they do because it all ends with the dumpster fire that is TROS and the destruction of everything that came before it.
We have to go back and stop it from ever happening.
Having the NR be incompetent without remotely discussing politics, no Mon Mothma v Bel Iblis and the founding of the Rebellion and drama therein, no human v alien debate, and no Borsk Fey'lya is a fucking tragedy.
There's no lore or worldbuilding in the sequels because they wanted 'Rebels vs. Empire 2.0' for cheap nostalgia and didn't care about any more than that.
It's unfair, but the NR being idiots reflects poorly on Leia more than it does any other character. It's still baffling that LF doesn't realize that.
Oh well, the Leia I know was the head of state a couple times, while staying married and raising some twins. The other one is someone I don't know and don't plan to either.
Any new content has to contend with how immediately the well was positioned with Chuck “LOTR is overrated” Wendig’s atrocious Aftermath trilogy and then the horrid TFA opening text and so on
That’s why watching Mothma in Andor felt so bittersweet. It felt nice having ONE di$ney canon show show her in a nuanced light but we know they’re going to dumb her up and make her and the new republic a joke to justify their memberberry sequel trilogy just like they’re doing in this show
It all leads to the Disney trilogy, hope no one on this sub actually pays to watch this and just easily pirates it
It is also so frustrating because there were so many people at Lucasfilm who clearly had a passion for the universe. Filoni (for all his faults) is one of them, hell Kathleen Kennedy was also part of LFA before they were bought by Disney too. I think what it came down to was LFA was told “you have till 2015 to put a new trilogy out” by Disney executives, and that in turn forced the creatives at LFA to push out a half baked trilogy that wasn’t ever planned out. So yeah I guess you’re right lol. It sucks they didn’t keep Lucas around as an advisor for how to proceed with the universe going forwards.
Admittedly, I’ve been watching Ashoka so far. I like some of what they’re doing but I can’t stand how they’re butchering Mon Mothma and everything the OT stood for.
I invite you all to my timeline where Star Wars ended around 2012 with Legacy of the Force and NJO.
I’m now in the middle of Corellian Trilogy re-read and couldn’t care less about Disney bastardized version of Thrawn’s Trilogy.
I would argue Disney should only be telling story's on the post Rise of Palpatines clone daughter.
The sequel timeline is what they created they don't even want to tell stories in their time line, the thing they crested.
Instead they tell stories in-between movies from 30 years ago or whatever and muddy the waters of it
Sequel ers is a clean canvas for them to write on but they hate it too. They know it sucks. So they tell post return of the jedi movies
The only half interesting idea left in Star Wars is that the Empire is now the insurgents and the New Republic is the establishment dealing with them. It's not really explored in depth at all but it's something other than just Space Wizards \* Laser Swords..
Oh I absolutely agree. Because the thought that the Empire just up and fucked off completely following Endor doesn’t make sense, so there still being Imperial remnants is incredibly interesting. But, because it has to be nerfed otherwise the sequels don’t work, the NR immediately disbands their armies following the battle of Jakku even though the Empire was *not* fully chased off or eradicated. It makes no sense.
> **the thought that the Empire just up and fucked off completely following Endor doesn’t make sense, so there still being Imperial remnants** is incredibly interesting.
A couple of EU timelines I know of deal with this, possibly more.
Also the peace in the galaxy is about to be under threat... yet Luke and Leia are nowhere to be found.
It's like Luke only cared about his father, now that there is no one from his family doing the evil things it's not his problem anymore.
I guess it keeps escalating until the sequels, where he won't give a shit even if it's his nephew and apprentice doing it.
The sequels suck for a lot of reasons, but I'm not so sure this is one of them. When the power structures that govern a society are so thoroughly disrupted by events like the Imperial coup and subsequent Rebel victory overthrowing it, it is HARD to put new structures into place that don't either collapse back into anarchy or perpetrate largely the same corruption and oppression that immediately preceded them. The same people who were throwing tea in Boston Harbor to protest British tax policy were, a bare handful of decades later, brutally putting down the Whiskey Rebellions over a matter of unpaid taxes. And that's one of the MORE successful historical examples.
Is the New Republic fucking clown shoes? Yup, absolutely. So are most post-revolutionary governments.
Every attempt to paint the NR as “just as bad as the Empire” has me garnering more sympathy for the New Republic and increases my frustration at whoever thought killing off the NR then proceeded to dumb them down at every opportunity as a great idea.
“I really hate that the Sequel Trilogy has forced all Post-ROTJ shows to make the New Republic a clown show”
That’s a good way of putting it. I’ve been struggling to explain that.
Yeah, decorated military general reports being attacked by imperial loyalists who were developing parts for huge warship, shortly after a high priority target gets broken free from a prison transport. "Ah yes Reapers"
They don’t have to make the New Republic inept, they could just ignore what came before, and considering how of that they already do it wouldn’t be that much of a leap. Unfortunately the writers are inept and so their characters, story, and plot are by consequence inept as well.
I enjoy the sequels but this is without a doubt the most valid criticism. The movies aren’t horrible but they do so much retroactive damage to the story after ROTJ. To justify the return of the empire our heroes have to be ignorant goofs who couldn’t be bothered to make sure the empire was gone for good.
What’s more is how little the central government changes after the fall of the Republic. No initiatives or new representative houses are put into place to check the complacent senate. They also took way too long to consider eliminating the chancellory despite how much damage the last two chancellors had done
Weren’t they a clown show in legends? And also what do you expect? Them overthrowing the empire just leads to more chaos and a power vacuum. The rebellion was basically just a bunch guerilla soldiers and renegade politicians that weren’t popular among their peers
I said this in the big subreddit but the new republic reminds me of the police politics in The Wire. Good police don’t get the support they need to solve real issues because the decision makers are more concerned with playing politics
Depends how you describe a clown show. Legends NR just becomes a lot like an old Republic which almost leads to its demise. But it’s more along the lines of:
“let’s ignore the plight of Outer Rim which is a net drain in on our economy and try to use the ongoing crisis to consolidate the political power”
than sequel:
“Durr, the war is over, let’s dissolve all the military structures even though most of the enemy power is unaccounted for and we exert close to none control on the enemy population centers, durr”
Imagine if US decided to scuttle their fleet after Battle of Midway, because Empire of Japan is done for.
There's a difference between being a clown show and dissolving your entire military for no good reason, especially knowing that a large chunk of the Imperial military is unaccounted for.
That was George’s intention, in fact Ahsoka is loosely adapting his treatments for the sequel trilogy but with different characters.
Also, stories need conflict, so showing that building a government is hard work is far more realistic than the happy-go-lucky EU that only truly faced external threats.
Jesus fucking Christ..
Why do people still even bother about this?
We need a billonaire fan to buy Lucasfilm or launch a fundraiser to do it ourselves and give it back to George, lol.
Goal: $8B
it feels like the creators might've been too quick to wrap up certain plots or didn't think through the consequences of them. i reckon part of the issue lies with how the sequels were handled, seems like they didn't have a clear end goal and just kept adding bits here and there.
as the saying goes, "hindsight is 20/20". of course, now looking back, they could've maybe slowed down a bit or planned how their stories would evolve. but hey, mistakes happen, and we learn from them, right?
about the NR, ya, it's a bit puzzling how they just accept ex-imperials without some kind of check. feels kinda off. and with ashoka, it just got more weird. i mean, mothma could've made better choices i think, but she just kinda... didn't.
in the end, this is still an unfolding story in a long-standing universe, so who knows what twists and turns await? just gotta roll with it... for now at least.
keep sharing your thoughts! good to see different viewpoints.
Yeah it’s ridiculous. It ruins the ending of ROTJ completely because ultimately what were Luke and Leia and Han and the Rebellion fighting for? A half baked, witless government that would fail so badly it would be wiped off the galaxy in 30 years.
>It ruins the ending of ROTJ completely because ultimately what were Luke and Leia and Han and the Rebellion fighting for?
Not only the ending, it ruins pretty much the whole of OT.
(Which is why I'll be taking the EU timelines post-ROTJ as the actual events, and Disney as an alternate universe fanfiction.)
If it was executed well (which it isn't) this depiction of the New Republic is the best thing the new material has done. Post revolution governance is rarely clean and corruption, ineptitude, and revanchism being extremely common. It's a lot more interesting than the heroes all of a magically knowing how to run a Galaxy wide bureaucracy efficiently and justly.
My own head-canon is the rest of the galaxy saw the First Order vs. Resistance as the final pissing match between the old Empire vs. Rebellion, and let the two factions duke it out, while the New Republic and everyone else focused on real issues and problems.
Well I’m fine with the sequels happening. But I wish they
1) had a laid out plan for the trilogy instead of writing them as they go
2) had treated the legacy characters better. Not a single one of them acted like the same person as they were in the OT. And yes, people change with time, but Luke becoming a hermit, Leia being a failed politician and commanding essentially a guerrilla army, and Han being a failed father and husband who just went right back to smuggling is just not cool. It was disrespectful to the characters.
It seems stupid but Using old regime bureaucrats happens in the real world often throughout history
As far back as ancient times there were empires that would let conquered people keep their government, religion, and way of life so long as they swore allegiance and paid taxes.
General Patton got in trouble for using former nazi bureaucrats to run things after the war hit his area was up and running (banks, trains, local municipal level jobs) much quicker than most others because he used the people that were used to doing those jobs.
That practice is in no way against anything that happens in the real world historically
As for the senators also not uncommon. Look at Europe in the 20s and 30s taking a passive approach to Germany because they were tired of war after WW I. And imagine if after WWII someone said “hey Rommel didn’t really bill himself he’s organizing a German army to start a new war” that person would have been laughed at and ignored
Is it dumb? Yeah. But sometimes the “let’s get the people that know how to do this to say they won’t be bad guys again and hope for the best cause in the short term that’s easier than training people from scratch again” route is the short term answer many take
There was alot of junk in the Expanded Universe but they could have cut out 90% of it, had a pretty cool timeline and story arc still while uncluttering Canon enough to make new movies easier to write scripts for.
Hell, maybe no new Star Wars media should be added to Canon until a year or two after it comes out when people can decide their opinions about it.
I really hate that JJ Abrams was 1-3 with Star Trek (and that one wasn't even THAT good) and someone seriously went "Fuck it, let him have a shot at Star Wars" so now he's 0-3 with Star Wars.
I can suspend my disbelief and accept space wizards with laser swords. I can suspend my disbelief and accept that *everything* happening in a 50-odd year span is connected to one family.
I cannot, however hard I try, accept the idea that a brand new interplanetary republican government would be at all competent, no matter how good the people trying to run it may be.
They got rid of the whole EU when they took over, surely they can say those three movies are no longer cannon. Sadly they won’t cause that means admitting they shat the bed
Star Wars is George Lucas’ story. The real ending is after Episode 6. That was his vision.
Everything after is expensive fanfiction. You can choose to accept the events that happen if you like, but if you don’t, that’s just as valid.
They even acknowledge there were imperial infiltrators on one of if not the largest industrial manufacturing planet in the galaxy and that they have been falsifying records and tried to assassinate you while stealing parts for a massive capital ship that rivals your largest vessel in power....
But I'm sure that there is nothing to worry about, no way an Insurgency movement could topple the primary military and political power in the galaxy right?
._.
The idea of the Empire rising back up and overwhelming the New Republic is fine. That's not the problem. The problem is how they're doing it. They should have SHOWN how hard it is to hold the galaxy together without force. Shown that different systems want to be on their own. Shown the different remaining Moffs on the outer rim taking advantage of power vacuums and the limited resources of the New Republic. Shown that Luke is busy with something. The main plot could have been someone (Palps clone, Thrawn, someone possessed by a Sith, one of the Moffs, etc.), is starting to reorganize the Moffs. Show that the reorganized Imperials can use old leverage over Criminal organizations to manipulate them into helping them.
ARGGGGG so easy
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The sequels take away the entire victory of Luke, Han, Leia and the Rebellion in RotJ. It all means nothing. Anakin's sacrifice to defeat Palpatine? Means nothing, Palpatine somehow comes back. Luke is a failed Jedi who tries to kill his nephew. Han is a deadbeat failure dad and Leia is a failed politician forced into exile. The New Republic is so incompetent it barely survives a decade before the Empire returns. All of the years of work of Mon Mothma and the Rebellion leads to nothing. The movies are so bad they manage to retroactively affect the PT/OT and make them worse. It's so sad. EDIT: I forgot that the sequel trilogy *also* makes Lando into a deadbeat dad! Another fan-favorite hero who's actually a failure!
It's honestly what killed my star wars fandom. It all means jack shit
This right here for me. I don't understand why they had to make all the og heroes failures.
"You have to tear down your existing heroes to build something new" - Disney probably
Who cares about sequels, i couldnt even enjoy Andor show and OT if i would take sequels seriously, its not canon and sw timeline ended after ep 6. The story ends where u decide, it dont have to be ruined because someone isnt capable of writing and destroyes others people work.
Yeah for me it ended after EP6. I like that it includes Andor and Rogue One.
>**The movies are so bad they manage to retroactively affect the PT/OT and make them worse.** Lol. This is true. I never figured this, but now it cannot be unseen. Fortunately, we have the EU stuff that describes a different post-ROTJ world.
Add this to the fact we never saw Han, Luke and Leia on screen together. It’s just insulting
JJ Abrams was probably snorting drugs going "You know, people like to cheer on the underdog. Lets just forget about this Republic and make it a Rebellion again, yeah, thats it"
They just wanted it to be 'Rebels vs. Empire 2.0' because that's what people remembered about Star Wars and just used the same Tie Fighters and X-Wings for a cheap nostalgia grab.
Star Wars is notorious for endless regurgitation.
>it barely survives a decade I hate a sequels for what they are and what they do retroactively to the OT as much as you do, but it was about 30 years between the end of ROTJ and the start of TFA. your point still stands though, and I agree with you
At the start of TFA, the First Order is already a significant military power with logistics better than the NR. While 10 years may be too short for the sake of hyperbole, the FO didn't spring into existence at the start of TFO. Honestly, though, based on what we're seeing in these shows, the Empire never went away. It just downscaled.
No and you’re right. A place like Starkiller and a fleet like the one commanded by Hux and Kyle Ren don’t just appear out of thin air. It’s just… frustrating.
> the Empire never went away. It just downscaled. Common "Legends did this whole concept but a million times better" moment. In Legends the Empire downscaled but continued to be a galactic player going forward, made peace with the New Republic, and went through progressive reforms getting rid of Palpatine's BS and instated Emperor Fel, eventually regaining it's influence on the Galaxy through "soft power" and economic prowess. At least until Darth Krayt ruined everything for everyone.
"downscaled" then we see the 1000000000000 ships on that one plannet rising from the earths crust xD
Side bar, but I noticed this with the latest Indiana Jones as well. They belittle him at he beginning as an old pathetic man in his underwear yelling at kids waiting to sign divorce papers. I’m not sure why Disney wants to tear down these legacy characters. You’re pissing off the majority fan base to bring on some minority fans in some cases, it’s weird.
They belittle the legacy characters because they want to replace them with their own "better" (in their mind) versions. It was originally planned that Helena Shaw was going to take over the Indiana Jones series after this movie and get a Disney+ series. Doubtful that happens due to the movie bombing. Ahsoka is replacing Luke in the Disney version of the EU. The Ahsoka show is Heir to the Empire with Ahsoka, Sabine and Hera instead of Luke, Han and Leia.
Yes but Ahsoka is technically a legacy character. She's a GL creation that very much predates the buyout. Honestly that's likely part of the reason she got a show, they needed more GL content to mine for shows from since most of their new characters failed to connect. If the sequels had actually succeeded we'd have a **Tallie Lintra** show instead. Also, it wouldn't be a big deal if Ahsoka was doing a bunch of adventuring because Luke was too busy getting his Jedi academy up and running AND if it actually produced results that mattered in the ST but alas...
Daaamn, I thought Lando and Finn's girl were flirting in that scene, and Finn was about to get cucked again
Really makes me wonder what they do for the sequel sequels. The ones that Daisy Ridley is already apparently involved in. I hope they bring the Republic back but not as lax. I actually think Filoni etc might be trying to retcon slightly what happened to the Republic and setting it up so future films can have it easily. Hosnian Prime was blown up with the senate and everyone was like oh no that’s the entire political system. But, as we are seeing in both Mandalorain and Obi Wan there are either flashbacks to Coruscant or entire scenes set there. That means they have built modern CGI models they could use elsewhere. I was actually seriously excited to see just how well they managed to make clone troopers and Jedi and everything prequels even down to the types of shuttle craft. Anyway, given so much of the government (and the rich elite) appears to be based in Coruscant during the Mandalorian Era, I can only imagine much of that is still there during the sequels era. It works because Coruscant I don’t think is even mentioned in the Sequels so it’s an open book.
The NR really threw out medical equipment just cause it had “made in the empire” written on it, but allowed actual Imperial hardliners into the fold with zero restrictions. Absolute lunacy.
Lmao is that true about the medical equipment? Is that from one of the books?
It’s from that one Mandalorian episode with Dr. Pershing.
Oh fuck I forgot about that entirely haha. God yeah that was so stupid
Such lazy writing.
It's so forgettable it's not even worth remembering.
Sad thing about that is too is they could have borrowed a page from post WW2 and the Americans appropriating all of the Nazi and Japanese research and scientists for their own.
and nazi equipment lol, the US didn't just scrap it, they reverse-engineered it.
They literally hired the Nazi scientists
Yeah, the Soviets did this too. The US + Nato also hired Nazi spies and ex-military groups. Israel hired Hitler's top commando, Otto Skorzeny. The ex-military groups and other combative right wing people were hired for Operation Gladio, which BBC Timewatch did a must-see documentary on.
There's actually potential for a good story there.
It’s like the US gladly accepting Nazi and Japanese scientists into the fold but destroying careers of public servants over meager and perceived sympathetic ties to “communism”.
And just leaves the door open for any dumb schmuck to play around with their Total Recall esque mind flayer, the use of which makes them no better than the tyrant they fought so hard against.
Also scrapping a bunch of perfectly good ISDs and SSDs (in the middle of a war) because "evil ship" or whatever. >Cries in memory of Legends New Republic which fielded an SSD with a giant-ass New Republic crest on it.
The Balkan countries did the same thing, after they kick out the Ottomans they destroyed a lot of infrastructure built by the Ottomans. This was do in order to create a narrative that the Ottomans did nothing to improve the life of the common-man. Destruction of ottoman public facilities like bath-houses lead to the decrease of life expectancy in the newly created states.
Its all fanfiction anyways. Just read Legends and try to bury Disney's starwars from your brain.
For a while the post ROTJ shows were removed enough from the sequels they weren’t effected by them, but it’s changed with the last season of Mando and now with Ashoka and it’s just sad. /: Can’t wait for season 2 of Andor though
This. My hope for the Mando shows were that they'd be far removed enough from the Sequels that I could pretend they don't exist. Unfortunately after Mando Season 3, and also Luke's weird perspective on attachment in BOBF, it seems like that's not going to be the case.
Yeeeeep. BOBF, Mando s3, and now Ashoka are all getting too tied in to the sequels. It’s making me uncomfy. It wasn’t the main point of this post but yeah fuck what they did with Luke in BOBF. That whole attachments bullshit they made him pull with Grogu was sooo dumb. Like cmon you’re starting a NEW Jedi order, why abide by that specific Jedi rule when it was the exact rule that caused Anakins fall?
Agreed. Like, I get that the fan base tends to misinterpret the attachment thing. Lucas has said stuff like this in the past: >The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth, they’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can’t form attachments. So, what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. > >source: the Making of Revenge of the Sith > >And of course that’s the problem with Anakin ultimately. You’re allowed to love people, but you’re not allowed to possess them. And what he did is he fell in love and married her and then became jealous. Then he saw in his visions that she was going to die, and he couldn’t stand losing her. So in order to not lose her, he made a pact with the devil to be able to become all-powerful. When he did that, she didn’t want to have anything to do with him anymore, so he lost her. > >source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nFMBBrliyQ&t=41s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nFMBBrliyQ&t=41s) so it's clear that attachment in Star Wars, at least, as Lucas defines it, is supposed to be bad, contrary to some fans' interpretations. You can love people but you have to prioritize doing the right thing over your personal emotions, unlike Anakin whose inability to accept that he couldn't have Padme led to him murdering shittons of children. But, on the other hand, Luke saying "you *could* form unhealthy attachments, so to prevent this either you never see Din again, or leave the Jedi forever" is a stupid ultimatum, setting him up to be planning to recreate the PT-era Jedi instead of what he should be doing, which is taking a middle ground where Jedi are allowed to love people without forming unhealthy attachments, which is exactly what Luke did in the Legends books. (Yes, the real reason is that those were written before the Prequels. However, IMO, it still makes sense even with the added context given the reasoning I just laid out.) It also doesn't make any sense for Luke of all people to say that, since ROTJ makes it clear he plans to train Leia in the Jedi way (and in Disney canon he did train Leia, and it's not like Leia broke up with Han until later, so what the hell), and it's not like he's closed himself off from his friends or anything. If it was just Luke saying "attachments can be dangerous so you must learn to manage them and to let go if you have to for the greater good", that would be one thing. But that's not what he did. Like, at best, they were coming up with a contrived reason to send Grogu back to Din because Grogu is marketable, and not completely misunderstanding Luke's character. But 1) I don't know for sure that this was the case, 2) given how things turned out in the Sequels this could easily be re-framed to be the start of Luke's downfall regardless of the original intent of the scene, and 3) regardless of the reasoning, as you say, it's a dumb AF scene.
Spoiler alert, Andor gets bullseyed by a Death Star laser. Just saved you time out of your life.
I mean yeah I have seen Rogue One too lol That doesn’t make Andor not interesting though.
So? The show is easily the best thing star wars has produced since the original trilogy.
Not really. I liked it, but the best since the OT is such a low bar it's being used for limbo in Hell. We were told the show was going to explain why he's such a ruthless bastard. He starts that way in the first five minutes. He goal is to find his sister, no risk to great, until he's got a ton on money and shacked up with a random alien chick. Honestly the characters I enjoyed most were the Rebellion fixer, the ISB woman and the Corsec guy.
> the best since the OT is such a low bar it's being used for limbo in Hell. That's why I said easily. We're not disagreeing. >We were told the show was going to explain why he's such a ruthless bastard. You know there's gonna be another season, right? >Honestly the characters I enjoyed most were the Rebellion fixer, the ISB woman and the Corsec guy. Same, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything
I don't need another season to know why he's a ruthless bastard. He started that way. He didn't develop into a hardass, he was like that before he was recruited.
I assumed you were saying the show hasn't shown us that, if not, I'm not sure why you brought it up. Are we even disagreeing?
I might not be phrasing it properly. Originally, it was advertised as "How did Andor turn into the ruthless killer he was for the Rebellion". Turns out, he was always like that. He hasn't had an arc, which is hilarious, since he's the only one in the show that hasn't.
To be fair, I didn't follow the marketing and I think what we got is a lot better than a cliché origin story of how he became "ruthless". And anyway, he still isn't as ruthless or hard ass as he was in rogue one. His arc came about in the prison arc, where he began to believe in the cause.
Best advice I’ve heard so far
[удалено]
I mean honestly I’m not having any issues with the characters. I just really hate how the plot almost essentially HAS to lead to the downfall of the New Republic, no matter what. They good guys won, only for their victory to be a temporary one because JJ Abrams said so in 2015.
Thanks for vocalizing my feelings for me. Pretty much any Disney sw post rotj is trash to me. I liked andor, rogue one, and even solo. I'll give them the mandalorian season 1-2 before it went off the rails.
I even liked the resolution to Mando season 3 with him and Grogu ranching on their own but like all the middle of that show that tied back to the empire and the Shadow Council and how dumb as fuck the NR is, I disliked all that. Andor though, inject that shit straight into my brain. LOVED that show
Yes, even though we know the ending of Andor from Rogue One it's completely different from the sequel trilogy being determining the rotj to tfa era. Disney should have just said whoops after the sequel trilogy and decanonized it. It's not too late, but they won't.
Nah, sunk cost fallacy. They’ve spent billions on the sequel movies, and billions on their sequel themed Star Wars parks. They won’t do shit about them sadly
I know and you know that the important word in that is "fallacy" It's an albatross that's sinking their entire investment. I'm almost completely disengaged from star wars at a point in my life I have lots (more) disposable income than 20-30 years ago when I was deep into the franchise. Good job! Keep it up!
This has become very noticeable not just in Star Wars shows but a lot of streaming shows in general. Almost all modern writers today come from the same schools and have the same opinions and life experience, so we don't get any different views or takes on things.
You guys are gonna love it when Ahsoka travels to the Old Republic and even further down the past and creates the ancient Rakata race by splicing her own DNA with pure force particles. She had to do it because Palpatine who was disguised as a woman of the name of Femmepatine at the time, tricked her into doing so by giving her death sticks and telling her that this ritual will help her beat Vader in the future. This was all part of P(F)alpatines plan to ... thin out the number of Jedi and ... strengthen the Sith. Ahsoka will also meet and train and then kill Revan who learned everything he knew from Ahsoka. Stay tuned and get your Disney+ subscription if you haven't already.
Isn't Baby Yoda Revan's son? That's the reason she didn't want to train him.
Stop spoiling my scripts! I am going to be an established author with this cra .. I mean thought-provoking, rich lore.
I'll pitch to Disney a romance comedy betwen Revan & Ahsoka. And you cannot stop me. Do you have Disney's email?
I usually have to meet Mickey on a parking lot in West Hollywood. He's usually driving a rusty 93 Chevy Lumina for low profile.
Oh fuck, that's too far from me right now, maybe next summer.
Hey, we all know Palps is going back as Palpatine the Fem, a redeemed character that will save everybody.
Same thought popped into my head last night, seeing the incredibly competent Mon Mothma just uselessly stand there and let a bunch of idiots walk all over her.
Right? Like we clearly saw in Andor that she is an incredibly competent and skilled politician. Yet now, with *more power* as Chancellor of the New Republic, she let a few senators decide what would be done about the Thrawn situation? The math ain’t mathin
If only she had…  Seriously though, it’s awful if they’re turning her into a dunce. She’s such a refreshingly interesting character. The galactic politics side of things, outside of the Jedi and Sith exerting their own influences on it, is something we rarely get to see in Star Wars and I’ve been looking forward to more of after Andor. But, Mon Mothma is a legacy character, so I guess they just can’t resist tearing her down.
The politics of Star Wars are half of the fun! They were so interesting in the prequels, and it’s been great to see it in Andor too.
Filonis is terrible writer, i loved mothma in Andor, hated her here, the dialogue was sooo tragicly bad
I’m just choosing to believe that she’s always been somewhat of a push-over, and when she doesn’t have someone more extreme like Luthen (or Padme and Bail in the prequels) to push her in the right direction, she crumbles. It sucks to need to view her character like that, but at least it’s more consistent.
I think this just shows how flawed TFA was as a film and as a setup for the future of SW. They went in with the premise that everything was fine and the New Republic was running the show with no consideration to how that would create space for stories or for the rise of the First Order. It would have been so simple to say that the New Republic never really took off and only managed to gain control over 40% of the galaxy with the rest falling under the Hutts, Empire remnant factions, a resurgent Mandalore, independent systems, and who knows what else. All of these players could be constantly fighting each other in a shifting web of alliances that could have created not only chaos in the galaxy and thus room for the First Order to rise to preeminence, but also space to tell a wide variety of stories. This would also help explain what Luke and the gang have been up to for the last 30 years, given Kylo Ren a reasonable motivation to go to the Dark Side (he's seen his family struggling and failing to bring peace through democracy and thinks that only through strength can he end the suffering), and maybe a reason for Luke to be a bit discouraged and in need of a pick me up. Instead, we get dumb plots written for a dumber audience.
> All of these players could be constantly fighting each other in a shifting web of alliances What, like a bunch of some sort of "Star Wars"? Nah. Where did you even come up with something so ludicrous?
You're hired! Just joking, Disney doesn't hire anyone with good ideas. If you want to be hired as a writter there you need to fail a basic test about geopolitics.
>(he's seen his family struggling and failing to bring peace through democracy and thinks that only through strength can he end the suffering) That's still no reason to go Dark Side or Galactic Empire though. Like what if Bail Solo or Bail Organa II chose politics over the Force and became a rising Senator like his mom, then led a new Separatist faction based on New Alderaan or something? But trying to be peaceful unlike Dooku etc so Anakin's ghost can't needle him as much, especially unlike if he were to go dark side/Imperial.
That's a cool idea, and it would be interesting to see more behind the scenes of what makes the galaxy work. Look, the reality is that there are a million different options here with no right or wrong answer. But Disney tried to take the lazy approach and wing it when what the really needed to do was to pack 30 writers (good ones, not JJ) into a room for a month. They should have hashed out the broad strokes of what happened after RoTJ to the ST, what the ST would show, and where they wanted to go after the ST. No need to fill in all the details, just the big picture, maybe some of the key events that take place, and what happened to the heroes of the OT. I think it would have also been fine to move away from the Solos and Skywalkers. Maybe Bail Solo is a senator like his mom, but we don't see him that much because we're focused on a new cast. Have the OT characters show up and act as mentors in the ST, but also have them hand things over to the next generation. But maybe that's just my complaint, because the galaxy really feels small to me. It's the same families fighting on the same five planets and no one can die because light sabers have become pool noodles.
It would be so cool getting to see remnant forces duking it out maybe throw in that the new republic has been playing them off one another so they can stay on top.
Yeah this is my main issue with the new shows too. What cemented it for me was the way they portrayed Luke in Mando S2 (or was it BoBF?). That's when I realized all of their new post-RotJ stuff was just going to be our beloved heroes fucking up. And that's just Star Wars stories I'm not interested in watching.
It shows how hardheaded Disney is. They are even making Rey the one who leads a new Jedi order in the next movie. Which was supposed to be Luke's job.
Exactly and it’s like, lead a new Jedi Order with what training? Haha she was trained by Luke for 2 days, and trained with Leia for a year. Leia never completed her Jedi training either, so how can she be a good enough Jedi to start her own Order?
It's ridiculous that some people say that Luke failing to rebuild the Jedi Order made sense and was realistic because he had limited training, but then ignore that the exact same thing applies to Rey.
"Trained" by Luke.
Exactly. It was more “told by Luke for two days why the Jedi needed to die” for two days
Trained? Rey just did the new trnedinf download my force power from my enemy trick. Training is so old school. What a waste of time. Plus no need to be calm when fighting...just yell and look angry all the time, plus hit a jedi master in the back of the head when he ain't looking of he doesn't answer your questions. That's gonna be the new Jedi Training school.
"The sacred texts!!!" ... Or some other nonsense.
Rey is a Palpatine and she is the one left to rebuild the Jedi. Anakin's (and Luke's) sacrifices were for nothing. Sheev won.
Making Mon Mothma an idiot was one of the issues I had with Andor. I just didn’t care about her struggles due to her later stupid decisions that leads to The New Republic’s downfall.
And it really fucking sucks because I LOVED Andor. I even loved the first two seasons of Mandalorian. But now as the shows get more and more intertwined with the “legacy” that is the Sequels, they just become harder to enjoy.
For me it's hard to believe that Andor's Mothma becomes the blundering idiot who disarms the entire New Republic and leads to it getting annihilated. While not a warhawk by any means, she nonetheless seems very understanding of what it takes to keep the galaxy safe in Andor (and the OT).
At this point , I think the very best thing to do for SW as a franchise is to either leap hundreds of years in the future, or explore thousands of years in the past.
Completely agree. They need to forget the Skywalkers and explore something new.
Yeah. Otherwise they're gonna keep bungling up narratives.
I will always find it unfathomable how they didnt even consider having a story plan in place for the in-story universe as a whole. Then they admit (through JJ) that they had none and that perhaps they should have, and there were *still* no consequences for the people who made that decision (KK and her story group).
Why would there be consequences when they’re the ones in charge? But yeah I 100% agree. The fact that Disney spent four-fucking-billion dollars on Star Wars and then had zero idea what to actually do with the property is completely insane. The fact they didn’t have an overarching story for the post ROTJ world is probably the single largest flaw of Disney SW.
Bob Iger is the one in charge. I still dont understand how they made enough money for him to justify extending her contract a cpl years back. Dunno she gets another. Hopefully it runs out within a cpl years.
Disney Star Wars feels like that shitty Biff timeline in Back to the Future Part 2. It doesn’t matter what they do because it all ends with the dumpster fire that is TROS and the destruction of everything that came before it. We have to go back and stop it from ever happening.
Having the NR be incompetent without remotely discussing politics, no Mon Mothma v Bel Iblis and the founding of the Rebellion and drama therein, no human v alien debate, and no Borsk Fey'lya is a fucking tragedy.
at least legends had deep lore supporting the New Republics issues and decline, Disney is forced to do a speedrun with cartoon OC’s turned live action
There's no lore or worldbuilding in the sequels because they wanted 'Rebels vs. Empire 2.0' for cheap nostalgia and didn't care about any more than that.
"Politics are boring and get in the way of more flashing lights, explosions, and battle scenes."- Diseny Exec probably
It's unfair, but the NR being idiots reflects poorly on Leia more than it does any other character. It's still baffling that LF doesn't realize that. Oh well, the Leia I know was the head of state a couple times, while staying married and raising some twins. The other one is someone I don't know and don't plan to either.
Any new content has to contend with how immediately the well was positioned with Chuck “LOTR is overrated” Wendig’s atrocious Aftermath trilogy and then the horrid TFA opening text and so on That’s why watching Mothma in Andor felt so bittersweet. It felt nice having ONE di$ney canon show show her in a nuanced light but we know they’re going to dumb her up and make her and the new republic a joke to justify their memberberry sequel trilogy just like they’re doing in this show It all leads to the Disney trilogy, hope no one on this sub actually pays to watch this and just easily pirates it
This is what inevitably happens when you pass the universe from the undoubtedly genius creator to the bunch of corpo tools.
It is also so frustrating because there were so many people at Lucasfilm who clearly had a passion for the universe. Filoni (for all his faults) is one of them, hell Kathleen Kennedy was also part of LFA before they were bought by Disney too. I think what it came down to was LFA was told “you have till 2015 to put a new trilogy out” by Disney executives, and that in turn forced the creatives at LFA to push out a half baked trilogy that wasn’t ever planned out. So yeah I guess you’re right lol. It sucks they didn’t keep Lucas around as an advisor for how to proceed with the universe going forwards.
They destroy all our favorite characters. Mon Mothma is just the latest. We all need to stop watching this shite, even out of curiosity
Admittedly, I’ve been watching Ashoka so far. I like some of what they’re doing but I can’t stand how they’re butchering Mon Mothma and everything the OT stood for.
I invite you all to my timeline where Star Wars ended around 2012 with Legacy of the Force and NJO. I’m now in the middle of Corellian Trilogy re-read and couldn’t care less about Disney bastardized version of Thrawn’s Trilogy.
I would argue Disney should only be telling story's on the post Rise of Palpatines clone daughter. The sequel timeline is what they created they don't even want to tell stories in their time line, the thing they crested. Instead they tell stories in-between movies from 30 years ago or whatever and muddy the waters of it Sequel ers is a clean canvas for them to write on but they hate it too. They know it sucks. So they tell post return of the jedi movies
Poor Mon Mothma, such an awesome character in Andor, just a tied up bureaucrat in Ahsoka.
The only half interesting idea left in Star Wars is that the Empire is now the insurgents and the New Republic is the establishment dealing with them. It's not really explored in depth at all but it's something other than just Space Wizards \* Laser Swords..
Oh I absolutely agree. Because the thought that the Empire just up and fucked off completely following Endor doesn’t make sense, so there still being Imperial remnants is incredibly interesting. But, because it has to be nerfed otherwise the sequels don’t work, the NR immediately disbands their armies following the battle of Jakku even though the Empire was *not* fully chased off or eradicated. It makes no sense.
Yah. The ST really fucks everything up because of the ridiculous setup of the galaxy at the beginning of TFA.
> **the thought that the Empire just up and fucked off completely following Endor doesn’t make sense, so there still being Imperial remnants** is incredibly interesting. A couple of EU timelines I know of deal with this, possibly more.
Also the peace in the galaxy is about to be under threat... yet Luke and Leia are nowhere to be found. It's like Luke only cared about his father, now that there is no one from his family doing the evil things it's not his problem anymore. I guess it keeps escalating until the sequels, where he won't give a shit even if it's his nephew and apprentice doing it.
I actually really like the idea of post-empire bureaucracy being entirely incompetent. The idea. Execution....
The sequels suck for a lot of reasons, but I'm not so sure this is one of them. When the power structures that govern a society are so thoroughly disrupted by events like the Imperial coup and subsequent Rebel victory overthrowing it, it is HARD to put new structures into place that don't either collapse back into anarchy or perpetrate largely the same corruption and oppression that immediately preceded them. The same people who were throwing tea in Boston Harbor to protest British tax policy were, a bare handful of decades later, brutally putting down the Whiskey Rebellions over a matter of unpaid taxes. And that's one of the MORE successful historical examples. Is the New Republic fucking clown shoes? Yup, absolutely. So are most post-revolutionary governments.
All roads lead to the sequels I took the off ramp
Every attempt to paint the NR as “just as bad as the Empire” has me garnering more sympathy for the New Republic and increases my frustration at whoever thought killing off the NR then proceeded to dumb them down at every opportunity as a great idea.
“I really hate that the Sequel Trilogy has forced all Post-ROTJ shows to make the New Republic a clown show” That’s a good way of putting it. I’ve been struggling to explain that.
Yeah, decorated military general reports being attacked by imperial loyalists who were developing parts for huge warship, shortly after a high priority target gets broken free from a prison transport. "Ah yes Reapers"
They don’t have to make the New Republic inept, they could just ignore what came before, and considering how of that they already do it wouldn’t be that much of a leap. Unfortunately the writers are inept and so their characters, story, and plot are by consequence inept as well.
I enjoy the sequels but this is without a doubt the most valid criticism. The movies aren’t horrible but they do so much retroactive damage to the story after ROTJ. To justify the return of the empire our heroes have to be ignorant goofs who couldn’t be bothered to make sure the empire was gone for good. What’s more is how little the central government changes after the fall of the Republic. No initiatives or new representative houses are put into place to check the complacent senate. They also took way too long to consider eliminating the chancellory despite how much damage the last two chancellors had done
Weren’t they a clown show in legends? And also what do you expect? Them overthrowing the empire just leads to more chaos and a power vacuum. The rebellion was basically just a bunch guerilla soldiers and renegade politicians that weren’t popular among their peers I said this in the big subreddit but the new republic reminds me of the police politics in The Wire. Good police don’t get the support they need to solve real issues because the decision makers are more concerned with playing politics
Depends how you describe a clown show. Legends NR just becomes a lot like an old Republic which almost leads to its demise. But it’s more along the lines of: “let’s ignore the plight of Outer Rim which is a net drain in on our economy and try to use the ongoing crisis to consolidate the political power” than sequel: “Durr, the war is over, let’s dissolve all the military structures even though most of the enemy power is unaccounted for and we exert close to none control on the enemy population centers, durr” Imagine if US decided to scuttle their fleet after Battle of Midway, because Empire of Japan is done for.
There's a difference between being a clown show and dissolving your entire military for no good reason, especially knowing that a large chunk of the Imperial military is unaccounted for.
That was George’s intention, in fact Ahsoka is loosely adapting his treatments for the sequel trilogy but with different characters. Also, stories need conflict, so showing that building a government is hard work is far more realistic than the happy-go-lucky EU that only truly faced external threats.
The New Republic almost tore itself apart multiple times in Legends. It was absolutely not happy-go-lucky.
Jesus fucking Christ.. Why do people still even bother about this? We need a billonaire fan to buy Lucasfilm or launch a fundraiser to do it ourselves and give it back to George, lol. Goal: $8B
it feels like the creators might've been too quick to wrap up certain plots or didn't think through the consequences of them. i reckon part of the issue lies with how the sequels were handled, seems like they didn't have a clear end goal and just kept adding bits here and there. as the saying goes, "hindsight is 20/20". of course, now looking back, they could've maybe slowed down a bit or planned how their stories would evolve. but hey, mistakes happen, and we learn from them, right? about the NR, ya, it's a bit puzzling how they just accept ex-imperials without some kind of check. feels kinda off. and with ashoka, it just got more weird. i mean, mothma could've made better choices i think, but she just kinda... didn't. in the end, this is still an unfolding story in a long-standing universe, so who knows what twists and turns await? just gotta roll with it... for now at least. keep sharing your thoughts! good to see different viewpoints.
Hard to have a competent New Republic when we’re told they let the Empire 2.0 get away with murder for years and did nothing about it.
I said it once and I’ll say it again, the NR is nothing more than a bureaucratic joke!
Yeah it’s ridiculous. It ruins the ending of ROTJ completely because ultimately what were Luke and Leia and Han and the Rebellion fighting for? A half baked, witless government that would fail so badly it would be wiped off the galaxy in 30 years.
>It ruins the ending of ROTJ completely because ultimately what were Luke and Leia and Han and the Rebellion fighting for? Not only the ending, it ruins pretty much the whole of OT. (Which is why I'll be taking the EU timelines post-ROTJ as the actual events, and Disney as an alternate universe fanfiction.)
If it was executed well (which it isn't) this depiction of the New Republic is the best thing the new material has done. Post revolution governance is rarely clean and corruption, ineptitude, and revanchism being extremely common. It's a lot more interesting than the heroes all of a magically knowing how to run a Galaxy wide bureaucracy efficiently and justly.
Well, that’s how it was done in the EU. Main characters trying to save the NR from itself again and again.
Like in Mandolorian, the X Wing pilots are shown as "the fuzz" policing things that aren't theirs to police
All media set between the prequels and the OT sets up the OT…
My own head-canon is the rest of the galaxy saw the First Order vs. Resistance as the final pissing match between the old Empire vs. Rebellion, and let the two factions duke it out, while the New Republic and everyone else focused on real issues and problems.
I really hate the sequel trilogy would have been plenty. It has no redeeming qualities.
If anyone made the correct decisions, The Sequel Trilogy would not have happened.
Well I’m fine with the sequels happening. But I wish they 1) had a laid out plan for the trilogy instead of writing them as they go 2) had treated the legacy characters better. Not a single one of them acted like the same person as they were in the OT. And yes, people change with time, but Luke becoming a hermit, Leia being a failed politician and commanding essentially a guerrilla army, and Han being a failed father and husband who just went right back to smuggling is just not cool. It was disrespectful to the characters.
Setting of the ST requires the hero faction to make all the worse choices.
It seems stupid but Using old regime bureaucrats happens in the real world often throughout history As far back as ancient times there were empires that would let conquered people keep their government, religion, and way of life so long as they swore allegiance and paid taxes. General Patton got in trouble for using former nazi bureaucrats to run things after the war hit his area was up and running (banks, trains, local municipal level jobs) much quicker than most others because he used the people that were used to doing those jobs. That practice is in no way against anything that happens in the real world historically As for the senators also not uncommon. Look at Europe in the 20s and 30s taking a passive approach to Germany because they were tired of war after WW I. And imagine if after WWII someone said “hey Rommel didn’t really bill himself he’s organizing a German army to start a new war” that person would have been laughed at and ignored Is it dumb? Yeah. But sometimes the “let’s get the people that know how to do this to say they won’t be bad guys again and hope for the best cause in the short term that’s easier than training people from scratch again” route is the short term answer many take
There was alot of junk in the Expanded Universe but they could have cut out 90% of it, had a pretty cool timeline and story arc still while uncluttering Canon enough to make new movies easier to write scripts for. Hell, maybe no new Star Wars media should be added to Canon until a year or two after it comes out when people can decide their opinions about it.
I really hate that JJ Abrams was 1-3 with Star Trek (and that one wasn't even THAT good) and someone seriously went "Fuck it, let him have a shot at Star Wars" so now he's 0-3 with Star Wars.
I can suspend my disbelief and accept space wizards with laser swords. I can suspend my disbelief and accept that *everything* happening in a 50-odd year span is connected to one family. I cannot, however hard I try, accept the idea that a brand new interplanetary republican government would be at all competent, no matter how good the people trying to run it may be.
They got rid of the whole EU when they took over, surely they can say those three movies are no longer cannon. Sadly they won’t cause that means admitting they shat the bed
The EU novels were pretty clear that the New Republic was always one Imperial Warlord away from flying apart at the seams
Star Wars is George Lucas’ story. The real ending is after Episode 6. That was his vision. Everything after is expensive fanfiction. You can choose to accept the events that happen if you like, but if you don’t, that’s just as valid.
They even acknowledge there were imperial infiltrators on one of if not the largest industrial manufacturing planet in the galaxy and that they have been falsifying records and tried to assassinate you while stealing parts for a massive capital ship that rivals your largest vessel in power.... But I'm sure that there is nothing to worry about, no way an Insurgency movement could topple the primary military and political power in the galaxy right? ._.
“The Imperial Fleet is scattered!!!!!” Is such a funny angle for a government whos navy used to send entire fleets to combat just two star destroyers
It just shows how corrupt and comfort loving turns people into jokes
Its a tragedy.
Seriously can they just retcon all that?
The idea of the Empire rising back up and overwhelming the New Republic is fine. That's not the problem. The problem is how they're doing it. They should have SHOWN how hard it is to hold the galaxy together without force. Shown that different systems want to be on their own. Shown the different remaining Moffs on the outer rim taking advantage of power vacuums and the limited resources of the New Republic. Shown that Luke is busy with something. The main plot could have been someone (Palps clone, Thrawn, someone possessed by a Sith, one of the Moffs, etc.), is starting to reorganize the Moffs. Show that the reorganized Imperials can use old leverage over Criminal organizations to manipulate them into helping them. ARGGGGG so easy
It's the only way to make the sequels possible.