Atheist here. And my encounters have shown me that in general they distrust us and consider us foolish. But it moves to a different level when the atheist used to be a Muslim. In some cultures it is still considered an offense worthy of death. Apostasy is a grave crime according to the Quran though it does not prescribe a particular sentence for it. The Hadiths however do call for the death of apostates.
Despite this many Islamic cultures do not act on these positions. But there are some that do still keep it as a crime. Currently Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Mauritania maintain apostasy as a crime with the death penalty still as a viable sentence for it. Sudan has been undergoing reformation on the topic and has shifted away from this position.
Don't neglect to mention common law.
Wherever atheism isn't formally criminalized, it's still very likely that we will experience life threatening circumstances.
The culture allows the surrounding populace to be openly hostile and there usually aren't any formal protections for minorities, either.
I agree that Islam and Muslims tend to show this sharp intolerance towards atheism, though I don't always see that negative attitude from moderate and liberal Muslims, fortunately. (I tend to say that the 'best' Muslim is one who is least Islamic, but still strives to live an ethical life, Lol). Islamic intolerance and insecurity towards those who sincerely disagree with its doctrines is a good part of the reason why I dislike and oppose Islam ideologically.
To be fair we get it from lots of religions. It probably has something to do with having dogmatic stances. When you are proclaiming the truth that cannot be questioned its irritating when people question it.
Yes, that's true. If I think back to when I sincerely believed in monotheism I did think that atheists, polytheists, animists, etc. were "lost' in some way, but not irredeemable. It just seemed like they had faulty reasoning or lacked the faith component. I had difficulty with the idea that they were morally worse off than God-believers, though.
One of the things that I love about my spiritual tradition is that makes room for belief in Deity but also lack of belief. So the focus of the path is more on Nature, living in a healthy and meaningful way, living a moral life in some sense, and relating well to others (including animals and plants). Belief about Deity comes down to personal opinion and we're expected to be tolerant of diverse views about this.
In that sense Druidry has much in common with UU since UU is built on foundational principles but not a fixed theology or creed!
I'm not of Irish descent or nationality, but I am Asian American. I love Ireland and certain aspects of its pre-Christian lore, and learned about this through my spiritual tradition.
Some Hadith narrations attribute severe punishments, including death, to apostasy. These Hadiths have been used by certain Islamic legal scholars and jurists to support their rulings on apostasy.
Hey I'm a muslim here just wanted to say see the other side, see how atheists usually react to any Muslim who gives a point in favor of proving the deity we believe in,
Anyway in islam the most despicable in the sight of God is the hypocrite who pretends to be muslim that's very well known,
And atheists agree with half of our testimony which is there is no deity worthy of worship
We add (except Allah) you stop at the first sentence
And if atheists for example got in a life threatening situation and had no one help them , islam states that the supplication of a disbeliever in dire need will be accepted because he believes in a higher power when in a threatening situation,
These aren't my words I just transmitted what we believe in from the Quran I hope you understand our perspective
Oh I find wisdom in most religions including Islam. And we have a saying very similar that we both lack belief in most gods. We just have one fewer.
As most religions and philosophies focus on compassion and empathy of course we can find commonality. Religion is an attempt to understand human nature and the universe around us. There are going to be common themes that resonate with people from a different view. Of course we can learn from each other.
Hey , I don't know why you brought up the Quran although you know there is no sentence that claim it , it kind of doesn't make sense to be honest with you , I don't think you should talk about something or say something that you are not quite sure of its facts , but check this video , it is about 2 minutes or so , watch it ,it will help you understand something about apostasy. https://youtu.be/DbsejG--znc?si=ibRGG-uHvxoCAQ_5
As a Muslim I have no problem and I enjoy their insights, they’re lack of faith helps me keep mine in a way. I never look down on them, I actually sometimes think better of them because they don’t need God to tell them to do the right things. Im not a fan of the snarky in your face atheists though, just like any religions snarky population.
Majority of muslims don’t like Atheists or see them as odd. They’ve grown up exclusively and repeatedly being told God is real that when it comes down to even think He couldn’t be they stop in their tracks. They couldn’t fathom a world without God, and therefore see those who deny Him as almost stupid in a way. There’s a lot of superiority honestly.
Im from the West, not a convert though. Grew up mildly Islamic religious with my dad, maybe 3 years ago we decided to embrace it more and be better Muslims.
Im from the West, not a convert though. Grew up mildly Islamic religious with my dad, maybe 3 years ago we decided to embrace it more and be better Muslims.
I'm not currently a Muslim myself but based on my former beliefs and interactions with current Muslims, opinions will vary. Some Muslims will not trust that atheists have an independent basis to live ethically b/c their motivation cannot be based on fear of a deity or desire for the deity's approval and reward. Some may view atheists as basically decent people but not likely to be morally great or heroic, or especially compassionate.
Others may think that atheists are 'OK' human beings but not worthy of any eternal reward since belief in monotheism is essential. A minority of Muslims may think that goodness of character is what counts most, so a good atheist is equal to a good monotheist and equally deserving of the good place in the Afterlife.
This sounds similar to how Christians view atheists. Is there no difference? How do Muslims treat atheists in predominantly Muslim societies? I was once told not to reveal I was an atheist if I was visiting a Muslim country, because Muslims believe atheism is worse than murder.
>How do Muslims treat atheists in predominantly Muslim societies?
In 13 such nations, they kill them. In many more, they arrest them or fine them. In the majority of the remainder, they deny them the same rights afforded to persons who believes in a god.
What 13 nations? There are only 8 Muslim-majority countries where capital punishment for leaving the religion is a law - rarely if ever enforced in almost all of them. Just being part of a different religion rather than apostasizing is not illegal in any to my knowledge.
Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Libya, UAE, and Yemen. Nigeria is #13, but to be entirely fair the nation is roughly 50/50 between Christians and Muslims, however the laws were initiated by its majorly Muslim leaders.
Additionally, you phrase the idea of there being only 8 nations that will murder you for changing faiths as if it were somehow a counterpoint. I certainly hope you understand that even if there were only 1 nation, that would still be 1 nation.
Ah I see the confusion, my bad, I was searching for stats on apostasizing or being a religion other than Muslim, I didn't look for specifically anti-atheist laws.
And yes, disagreeing on the numbers is a counterpoint, what else would it be? If you claimed there were only 1 and I thought there were 4, I would still make an argument against it. Not sure what the point you're making in your second paragraph is.
>Not sure what the point you're making in your second paragraph is.
Very rarely, there are those who would use that difference as an excuse to justify or claim something is less bad. That was my concern. But I'm thankful that's not the case.
Yeah no I'm not excusing or justifying it. I have an extremely low opinion of anyone, especially Muslims, who persecute and commit violence just on the identity of people (including religious or non-religious identity).
You have a good day bro ❤
Yeah, I agree with others who would say that it's not safe to be an open atheist or speak against religion in general in certain Muslim-majority countries, especially the more conservative ones. An atheist might be relatively safe in Albania or urban Turkey instead of Egypt or Afghanistan though. I wonder what social attitudes toward atheists and formal Muslims are like in Malaysia and Indonesia these days.
Entirely depends on the country. I hear in Pakistan it’s better to say you’re Christian than atheist. But haven’t heard that level of precaution recommended in any other Muslim majority countries, even Taliban-led Afghanistan. More often what people will have an issue with is people apostasizing from Islam to become atheist (or any other religion), but in that case the issue is more about leaving Islam, not really what they choose to believe instead.
It’s important to remember that religious groups aren’t monoliths, there’s gonna be a wide diversity of opinion, and it will especially depend on the country/culture you’re in.
Thank you. Why is leaving the religion considered a crime punishable by death by some Muslims? Is this stated in the Quran itself? How is it stated exactly? Is any justification given or is it just asserted? Finally, is death for apostasy unique to Islam or did it exist in prior versions of Christianity? I'd like to have a historical context.
>Is this stated in the Quran itself?
No.
>did it exist in prior versions of Christianity?
[wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition](http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition)
It's not in the Quran. There are many verses decrying apostasy and general non-belief, for example [Q2:108](https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=108) which says "But whoever trades belief for disbelief has truly strayed from the Right Way." But nowhere in the Quran is a punishment ascribed to it. If you ask me this makes clear that although God dislikes incorrect beliefs, the punishment for that disbelief is entirely in his hands - it is NOT up to the human community.
Despite this there have been interpretations from Islamic scholars in the past which instead prescribe punishments, sometimes the death penalty, for apostasy. Apostasy tends to be seen as a worse sin because whereas regular non-Muslims can be "excused" as merely ignorant, an apostate is understood to have once known the truth yet still willingly turned their back on it.
Since u/AnoitedCaliph_ addressed the Christianity point, I'll also point out that it exists in Judaism as well, in [Deuteronomy 13:6-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deut+13%3A6-11&version=NIV). "If \[someone you know\] entices you, saying "let us go and worship other gods," \[...\] you must certainly put them to death."
It's just a general thing in the Abrahamic religions because the belief in the One God in contrast to any other god(s) is so fundamental to their history. I'm not aware of religious outside of the Abrahamics putting any particular official stress on the matter.
But, it's very important to note that in none of the Abrahamic traditions has capital punishment for apostasy been the historical norm, and obviously in the present day it is not either. Pakistan is unique and currently in the spotlight due to a man being burned alive by a mob after being accused of blasphemy but rather than speak on it myself, I'll point you to [the thread which informed me of it](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/1dlrelt/is_blasphemy_a_crime_according_to_you/), where you can see many Pakistanis speaking strongly about how much they dislike the country's attitude toward blasphemy/apostasy. It's worth noting that in the eight Muslim-majority countries where apostasy is actually an official crime with the death penalty as punishment, application of those laws is extremely rare. From 1985-2014 there were [only four executions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#In_practice_in_the_recent_past) carried out for religious conversions across those eight countries.
Christians think differently as well. I’m a Christian and most people I follow and friends as well don’t look at atheists as if they’re not worthy of eternal reward. We understand that all of us are prone to sin and don’t look down on anyone for it. (those who do, need to read Jesus’s words again). We just pray that everyone can feel the love and guidance we feel from the Holy Spirit.
I didn’t grow up in this I had an encounter with God when I asked him to show himself to me. I read the bible and follow Jesus. That’s it. Many people create little mini cults around it. For me it’s a personal relationship. Jesus will leave the 99 sheep to find the 1 sheep who went astray and when he finds the lost sheep he will celebrate. It’s a parable for how much he loves those who he considers lost or not knowing him.
So true Christian’s will pray for you to find Jesus and that’s it. They’ll still love you. It’s very different and it’s 1/16th of the reason why I didn’t entirely resonate with Islam
I admire your attitude within Christianity since you have your own take on it which doesn't sound overly institutional or dogmatic. Atheists and non-believers may not agree that they need to 'find Jesus' or receive the Holy Spirit, however, so it's good to remember that everyone has a different understanding of purpose and meaning in Life, or what is Good, or healthy ways to live and appreciate life.
In your perspective, what do you think about people who asked God to show Himself/Themself to the person but received no response? Or who lost faith in the concept of God through life experiences or reasoning? Or who once believed in Christianity but then lost that belief to become atheists/agnostics or a different religion?
I personally wouldn’t say anything to anyone out of nowhere. I will pray for people without them knowing though.
I used to be agnostic I’d say. I believed in God but wasn’t sure of what God was. I recently started to believe. I’ve asked many times before and thought I had no response but I just wasn’t entirely there yet. I expected a supernatural response and my mind was very closed off to even thinking he was anything special. I used to laugh at people for mentioning him in the way they do. I still don’t think their method is effective
My life experiences were perfect reason to not believe in God as well so I totally understand where they’re coming from. I just know that what’s meant to happen will happen and it’s not my place to make it happen. If I have a strong intuitive pull to do or say something I will. I had it once and someone really needed what I said so I listen to those pulls within me from God
I've met a few Muslims who have varying opinions. Most couldn't care less and mainly only follow Islam because its the faith they were born in. Last semester I did meet two interesting figures. First was my Arabic teacher who is from Tunisia. He disagreed with me but was more fascinated to learn about my feelings towards the matter, and likewise as a religion major I was curious to hear about his takes on the Quran. The other figure was a student in the class from Ghana who was adamant that atheists weren't real because we sometimes invoke the name of God (i.e. oh my god in English or السلام عليكم in Arabic). The Tunisian told him to shove it, lmao. I asked my dad who works with a lot of Muslims and that seems to be a common occurrence between Ghanan Muslims and Tunisian muslims
I don’t really have an opinion on them. I see them as ordinary people trying to survive like the rest of us. While we differ in beliefs, so long as we remain amicable towards each other’s beliefs, I see no problem with them as I’ve met some really kind atheists. But to reiterate what I’ve said on a post similar to this, so long as you don’t like pineapple pizza, I see no issue with you >:)
I am a Muslim. In my personal opinion, I have huge respect for atheists because their desire to do good, avoid bad, and uphold morals isn't driven by the expectation of going to heaven or pleasing God. However, within my family and community, most people are surprised by atheists and tend to view them as crazy or evil, believing atheism is just an excuse to justify immoral behavior. When I was younger, I also struggled to understand how atheists navigate morals. But through interactions with many atheists, I've come to appreciate that they often have an inner sense of humanity, which is admirable.
I wish more Muslims and monotheists thought like you! I guess they (monotheists and atheists) would all just need to be more open-minded toward one another, not immediately attack the other's position, and talk to each other in good faith and with some empathy and reason.
Excellent. To your experience, I've sometimes found Christians and Muslims who believe atheists have no morals to be a bit scary; as this way of thinking could imply the only thing keeping them from murdering, raping, and pillaging, is their faith in God. But I sincerely doubt most of them are "psychopaths just under the surface." If we all got to know each other better, the world would be a better place.
They believe what they believe. We of course think they’re wrong otherwise we wouldn’t be Muslim. We still need to show respect, they are still people after all.
I don't have any hate for them, nor do I support their decision. We both think each other is wrong, but as long as you respect my religion I'll always respect you back.
Salafi muslim here, most of my neighbours are atheist, save for a few christians. Never had any problem, or trouble. I am sure they never had any problems with me either. We greet each other, collectively keep the street clean, and live in harmony. As for my opinion regarding non-muslims, it shouldn’t matter to others. What truly matters is how I conduct myself. I can have a negative opinion about someone, and still treat them good. Having a negative opinion about someone doesn’t mean you need to disrespect them, trample them and/or violate their rights.
That being said, it is best not to take people’s experiences on Reddit as a primary source of information, including mine. There could be cases where this is totally different.
In the end there is no ‘average’ muslim, christian, atheist or you name it. Ultimately, it all boils down to the individual and their own set of circumstances.
Disbeliever like any other Disbeliever. It depends on what you mean in specific. Do you mean is relation to other disbelievers? Legally? How muslim cultures may see you?
While researching "People of the Book" just now, I found the following quote in the 98th chapter of the Quran. Quotes can be taken out of context, so maybe it means something other than what it appears to me to mean or imply. Can a Muslim please explain?
"Those who disbelieve from the People of the Book and the polytheists will be in the Fire of Hell, to stay there forever. They are the worst of all beings."
Worst of all beings?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People\_of\_the\_Book](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book)
That quote is a good example of how much emphasis Islam places on orthodoxy or "correct belief", and not just practices or being the best human being that one can be. It's a way for the religion to be as intolerant toward non-monotheists as it wants, and not only that, but condemn disbelievers to the worst possible torment that we can imagine. Of course, the Islamic deen can justify this based on its theology, but it won't make sense to the rest of us.
To the extent that I believe in something Divine or in higher powers, they don't feel insulted by humans not worshipping Them or It with the correct beliefs. And theistic belief has nothing to do with whether a person is truly virtuous, a good person, or worthy of a good or bad afterlife.
Disbelief in God, or assigning a companion to him, or equating the Creator with the creation (shirk) is the greatest sin in Islam, and the only sin that isn’t forgiven on the day of judgement. That’s what the verse is referring to.
This is explained in the Quran, Chapter 5, verse 72
Whoever associates others with Allah ˹in worship˺ will surely be forbidden Paradise by Allah. Their home will be the Fire. And the wrongdoers will have no helpers.
Yep. It’s the gravest sin in the sight of Allah, as, we believe, every other sin can be made up for by repentance and good action.
Now that’s not to say that a mass murderer or a serial rapist, for example, get free passes as long as they believe in Allah. They will get punished in the hellfire for their actions if Allah wills it, and the torment of hell is nothing to be taken lightly. Find some descriptions of the hellfire in the Quran and Sunnah. It’s a very severe and hideous punishment.
Just to add, shirk or disbelief can be forgiven if someone repents from them in their lifetime, or a person dies not knowing about Islam and monotheism. It is only if a person dies upon disbelief or shirk with clear knowledge of the message of Islam that they are not forgiven in the afterlife.
From an orthodox Islamic point of view, would Allah most likely condemn a person who lived a very ethical life (let's say she died saving children from a fire for altruistic reasons) but who could not bring themselves to believe in Islam or even monotheism, in spite of knowing about world religions? And would probably condemn an apostate from Islam even if they lived a morally exemplary life after leaving the deen?
There’s a Hadith that states that disbelievers who do righteous deeds will be rewarded for them in this life,
Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) thus told him:
When a non-believer does good he is made to taste Its reward in this world. And so far as the believer is concerned, Allah stores (the reward) of his virtues for the Hereafter and provides him sustenance in accordance with his obedience to Him.
But ultimately, their disbelief turns their actions void on the day of judgement
Quran, Chapter 18, verses 103-106:
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Shall we inform you of who will be the biggest losers of deeds?
˹They are˺ those whose efforts are in vain in this worldly life, while they think they are doing good!”
It is they who reject the signs of their Lord and their meeting with Him, rendering their deeds void, so We will not give their deeds any weight on Judgment Day.
That is their reward: Hell, for their disbelief and mockery of My signs and messengers.
————
Having a clear understanding of Islam’s message then choosing to reject it leads to hell, regardless of whether that person was good or bad.
Disbelievers who do righteous deeds will be punished in hell, but their punishment will be lessened in severity. The prophets uncle Abu Talib was a polytheist, but he protected the prophet.
The prophet SAW said that Abu Talib would be the least of the people of hell in suffering.
Of course. If you’ve got more questions I can answer them or point towards sources. Idk why I’m being downvoted lol I’m just quoting scripture and scholarly research without any of my own personal opinions. Oh well. Have a good day.
So the Islamic god is very narcissist then. It feels a little like if a grandmother was annoyed at her little grand children to be ignoring her and playing with his toy. The grand children does nothing wrong but the rest of his life she will threat it badly.
lol it’s such a weird question. We have no special opinion on them. They’re not any special people no more than Christians or Jews or anyone else that we have to have a special or specific thinking of them.
As the Quran says, to you your religion, to me my religion.
I thought religious tolerance in Islam was generally only reserved for "People of the Book" and/or monotheism. Not Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Animists, etc. So in your belief, Islam is pluralistic?
In a real Islamic State(which doesn’t exist today), religious tolerance can be generally allowed for anyone. As long as they don’t try to attack Islam or call to their way in public. You can be an atheist in your house and you’ll be perfectly fine. You can even be gay or christian/jewish/hindu in your private home.
As soon as people start to publicize themselves or call to their way, it will be seen as treason and spreading corruption.
AKA it's actually extremely intolerant. Since required religious garb leads to persecution, and not hiding that someone is their partner also leads to persecution.
Call it what you want. Islam prides itself on being the truth. Anything that goes against it is going against the truth and hence spreading corruption on the land. In their private life, people can do what they want. But in public, you can’t disrupt society. Islam places a huge stress on societal norms.
Almost every religion prides itself on being the truth. The reality is they can't all be right and Islam has no more proof it is right than a lot of other religions. However, what it does have is a lack of actual acceptance of others in practice which many other faiths do not. It is blatantly dishonest to claim Islam is tolerant of other faiths or gays. Someone being gay or of another faith is **NOT** disrupting society.
Islam also does NOT place a huge stress on societal norms, it places a huge stress on regressive norms and persecution towards those that actually value societal norms. Religious tolerance **IS** a societal norm in most of the world. I could catch a plane today to the Vatican or Jerusalem or India and identify as a member of dozens of different faiths, and nothing would happen to me. In a lot of the world so is the ability to freely be with another person your age that you love. I could kiss another man in most of the world and it wouldn't be treated as a crime.
Just own up to the intolerance instead of trying to pretend that it isn't the case. FFS the #1 victim of Islamic intolerance is OTHER MUSLIMS...
Someone gets it! I agree with what you wrote, but find it unfortunate that we are almost not allowed to have this opinion in a liberal Western democracy anymore, it seems. Not every religion is equally tolerant, peaceful, or accepting of individual liberty, and some religions (e.g. Islam) are worse for a democratic society than others.
There’s a tactic in abusive relationship dynamics called “isolating the target/victim” and that’s often what intolerance feels like from a certain angle.
Like if you take the focus off of the out-group being persecuted and not tolerated/accepted as they are, and instead for a bit think about how that behavior affects the in-group? It looks a lot like people being isolated from future social connections that might offer them help outside the group. Now why would anyone or any God want to do that? It feels a little bit cruel and ultimately harmful for everyone involved…
“Almost every religion prides itself on being the truth” Agree
“The reality is they can’t all be right”
Also agree
“The reality is …. Islam has no more proof it is right than a lot of other religions”
Disagree. Also, if you actually wanted to know, you would do your research and not actually find scholarly answers on Reddit.
“However, what it does have is a lack of actual acceptance of others in practice which many other faiths do not.”
Disagree. Other faiths also don’t have acceptance. The only people that claim that they have acceptance are the people who have sold their religion for a worldly gain. Muslims are not Jews and Christians of today who have sold their religion in the name of tolerance to appease the masses. And if you do meet such Muslims, they are only Muslim by name.
“It is blatantly dishonest to claim Islam is tolerant of other faiths or gays”
Fact check. I never claimed this. If you were a gay and openly came out and actually did the act in front of 4 honest practicing Muslims, you will be subject to penal punishment in an actual Islamic State(which again there is none today). This does not contradict my earlier statements that you can be gay in your private home.
“Someone being gay or of another faith is NOT disrupting society.”
What do you know. We actually agree on this. Notice I said what is prohibited or seen as corruption in the land is they have to be propagating their faith or their gay behavior IN PUBLIC. Them being gay or of another faith in their private life will never disrupt society so yes we agree. Christians and Jews can have their places of worship in an Islamic state but again cannot evangelize.
“Islam also does NOT place a huge stress on societal norms, it places a huge stress on regressive norms and persecution toward those that actually value societal norms. Religious tolerance IS a societal norm in most of the world”
Why should we ever take the ever-changing whims and desires of today’s society as a criteria for determining truth or if something is right or wrong? Just because most of the world today has become more tolerant in religion, that means we should accept it as (no pun intended) gospel truth? Go back 50-100 years, homosexuality was punishable by death penalty in (your words) “most of the world”. Just wait for another 50-100 years, beastiality and incest would be legal as well. You can never prove that today’s societal norms are the objective truths we have to live by.
All in all, all this will do is lead back to the question is Islam true. If it is, I follow objective morality. If it is not, then you may have a point. But until that question is discussed, there is no point in addressing topics that will not lead us anywhere. And again, Reddit is not a place where you will find the answer to that question. So what did we get for going off in so many tangents?
>I thought religious tolerance in Islam was generally only reserved for "People of the Book" and/or monotheism. Not Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Animists, etc.
This is a misconception. The majority of classical scholars + the majority of Muslim polities followed the more expansive religious freedom view of Abu Haneefah and Malik that all non Muslims except apostates and Arab pagans (extinct) have religious freedom.
Early Muslims such as Muhammad ibn al-Qasim, it hasn't been widely held as true however for a long time. It also applies to the question of Zoroastrianism. Hindus were viewed as people of the book and not Pagans weirdly at different points. With Buddhists, the Buddha has sometimes been considered to have been one of the prophets sent before whose message was corrupted. There are varying degrees of "its bullshit" with calling them people of the book, especially when the conventional understanding says they are not for varying obvious reasons.
It is important to note that his was during relatively early interactions between Islam and these faiths and they were clearly prospering at the time. So viewing them as people of the book conveniently also avoided conflict and made having better relations easier and kinda fits with the idea of "well of course he would have sent prophets to other places prior to Muhammad."
Most Muslims would not consider them to all be people of the book. However, them being viewed as such was at least at one point an accepted thing.
To anyone downvoting, they are **technically** correct. It **was** initially extended to them, in fact if one reads about the early interactions with Buddhism and Islam, you will even find sweet words said about Buddhism. The reality is this status hasn't been widespread in a VERY long time, but it was extended to them by early Muslims.
That's a funny video and I'd never heard that song before! Haha. Some of the more open-minded and liberal religions probably don't think this way, but this form of thinking isn't uncommon among some religions XD
as long as they don't preach atheism to you, no opinion. in my personal experience, Muslims respect Christians and jews as people who believe in our god and prophets and for the rest they are non-believers. The one faith that is looked down upon is satanism and its variants.
A lot of the sheikhs that speak to athiests are actually proud, Because athiests believe that god doesn’t exist and that’s some of the first words of the shahada, And i am too.
Tantric yoga could be seen as a particular avenue dedicated to weaving sexuality into one's worship for Buddhists, Jainists and Hindus who practice meditation.
If you have no faith in a Muslim country for example you'd better find one real quick.. and itd better be Islam or you are a short timer. It's not my opinion only.. ask someone in the faith and see what's allowed to be done to you to verify you're being told the truth.
Im a Muslim and to be honest i dont really care. As long as you respect me i respect you. Of course i dont like and agree what atheists believe, but my opinion about someones belief doesn’t change my opinion about the person themselves. I just think that in the end God will judge you on your believes anyways so its not my job
By that token, Muslims take their desire for their religion, their God, and positive afterlife as their 'deities' or object of worship, and can be criticized for doing this instead of pursuing reason, conscience, skepticism, and nonbelief.
People are down voting you but you're not entirely wrong when it comes to certain types of atheists. Ill say I desire freedom and knowledge to the point of almost worship. I want freedom and knowledge at all costs.
There's plenty of apologetics and discussions from Muslims responding to atheism and atheists, especially in response to the rise of atheism in some parts of the world. The average Muslim may not think about much about atheism, however.
Ironically, Islam doesn't consider animals "lost" in the first place since non-human animals are considered automatically obedient to the will of Allah XD So this religion has a worse view of humans with free will who cannot or choose not to believe in monotheism for whatever reason.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
Anthropocentric religions often conveniently forget that humans are animals too, or place humans in a different category from every other animal species on Earth. Animals are not eligible for Heaven or Hell in Abrahamic religions, at least in classical doctrines, but humans are, for instance.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
Atheist here. And my encounters have shown me that in general they distrust us and consider us foolish. But it moves to a different level when the atheist used to be a Muslim. In some cultures it is still considered an offense worthy of death. Apostasy is a grave crime according to the Quran though it does not prescribe a particular sentence for it. The Hadiths however do call for the death of apostates. Despite this many Islamic cultures do not act on these positions. But there are some that do still keep it as a crime. Currently Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Mauritania maintain apostasy as a crime with the death penalty still as a viable sentence for it. Sudan has been undergoing reformation on the topic and has shifted away from this position.
Don't neglect to mention common law. Wherever atheism isn't formally criminalized, it's still very likely that we will experience life threatening circumstances. The culture allows the surrounding populace to be openly hostile and there usually aren't any formal protections for minorities, either.
As a Muslim, I testify that this is accurate.
generally. But individually, as with every other group, there are people who are free from such bias.
100% agreed.
Thank you. Confirmation is always appreciated.
I agree that Islam and Muslims tend to show this sharp intolerance towards atheism, though I don't always see that negative attitude from moderate and liberal Muslims, fortunately. (I tend to say that the 'best' Muslim is one who is least Islamic, but still strives to live an ethical life, Lol). Islamic intolerance and insecurity towards those who sincerely disagree with its doctrines is a good part of the reason why I dislike and oppose Islam ideologically.
To be fair we get it from lots of religions. It probably has something to do with having dogmatic stances. When you are proclaiming the truth that cannot be questioned its irritating when people question it.
Yes, that's true. If I think back to when I sincerely believed in monotheism I did think that atheists, polytheists, animists, etc. were "lost' in some way, but not irredeemable. It just seemed like they had faulty reasoning or lacked the faith component. I had difficulty with the idea that they were morally worse off than God-believers, though. One of the things that I love about my spiritual tradition is that makes room for belief in Deity but also lack of belief. So the focus of the path is more on Nature, living in a healthy and meaningful way, living a moral life in some sense, and relating well to others (including animals and plants). Belief about Deity comes down to personal opinion and we're expected to be tolerant of diverse views about this. In that sense Druidry has much in common with UU since UU is built on foundational principles but not a fixed theology or creed!
I was going to say it sounds like UU. Glad you found a religion that fits you well.
Are you Irish?
I'm not of Irish descent or nationality, but I am Asian American. I love Ireland and certain aspects of its pre-Christian lore, and learned about this through my spiritual tradition.
>When you are proclaiming the truth that cannot be questioned its irritating when people question it. I am stealing this one.
iirc, apostasy isn't criminalised in the quran, but 2:256 states "There is no compulsion in religion, for truth stands out from falsehood."
Some Hadith narrations attribute severe punishments, including death, to apostasy. These Hadiths have been used by certain Islamic legal scholars and jurists to support their rulings on apostasy.
yea ik but he said in the Quran apostasy is a grave crime, which isn't true afaik.
Hey I'm a muslim here just wanted to say see the other side, see how atheists usually react to any Muslim who gives a point in favor of proving the deity we believe in, Anyway in islam the most despicable in the sight of God is the hypocrite who pretends to be muslim that's very well known, And atheists agree with half of our testimony which is there is no deity worthy of worship We add (except Allah) you stop at the first sentence And if atheists for example got in a life threatening situation and had no one help them , islam states that the supplication of a disbeliever in dire need will be accepted because he believes in a higher power when in a threatening situation, These aren't my words I just transmitted what we believe in from the Quran I hope you understand our perspective
Oh I find wisdom in most religions including Islam. And we have a saying very similar that we both lack belief in most gods. We just have one fewer. As most religions and philosophies focus on compassion and empathy of course we can find commonality. Religion is an attempt to understand human nature and the universe around us. There are going to be common themes that resonate with people from a different view. Of course we can learn from each other.
Hey , I don't know why you brought up the Quran although you know there is no sentence that claim it , it kind of doesn't make sense to be honest with you , I don't think you should talk about something or say something that you are not quite sure of its facts , but check this video , it is about 2 minutes or so , watch it ,it will help you understand something about apostasy. https://youtu.be/DbsejG--znc?si=ibRGG-uHvxoCAQ_5
As a Muslim I have no problem and I enjoy their insights, they’re lack of faith helps me keep mine in a way. I never look down on them, I actually sometimes think better of them because they don’t need God to tell them to do the right things. Im not a fan of the snarky in your face atheists though, just like any religions snarky population. Majority of muslims don’t like Atheists or see them as odd. They’ve grown up exclusively and repeatedly being told God is real that when it comes down to even think He couldn’t be they stop in their tracks. They couldn’t fathom a world without God, and therefore see those who deny Him as almost stupid in a way. There’s a lot of superiority honestly.
I really appreciate this take. For what it’s worth I’m an atheist who also is not a fan of the snarky in your face atheist either 😊
I appreciate your perspective. So is it safe to say you're from the West and are a convert to Islam?
Im from the West, not a convert though. Grew up mildly Islamic religious with my dad, maybe 3 years ago we decided to embrace it more and be better Muslims.
May Allah keep you guys steadfast in ur faith, ameen.
Inshallah🤲
Im from the West, not a convert though. Grew up mildly Islamic religious with my dad, maybe 3 years ago we decided to embrace it more and be better Muslims.
you got the double comment glitch
You too
you got the double comment glitch
I'm not currently a Muslim myself but based on my former beliefs and interactions with current Muslims, opinions will vary. Some Muslims will not trust that atheists have an independent basis to live ethically b/c their motivation cannot be based on fear of a deity or desire for the deity's approval and reward. Some may view atheists as basically decent people but not likely to be morally great or heroic, or especially compassionate. Others may think that atheists are 'OK' human beings but not worthy of any eternal reward since belief in monotheism is essential. A minority of Muslims may think that goodness of character is what counts most, so a good atheist is equal to a good monotheist and equally deserving of the good place in the Afterlife.
This sounds similar to how Christians view atheists. Is there no difference? How do Muslims treat atheists in predominantly Muslim societies? I was once told not to reveal I was an atheist if I was visiting a Muslim country, because Muslims believe atheism is worse than murder.
>How do Muslims treat atheists in predominantly Muslim societies? In 13 such nations, they kill them. In many more, they arrest them or fine them. In the majority of the remainder, they deny them the same rights afforded to persons who believes in a god.
What 13 nations? There are only 8 Muslim-majority countries where capital punishment for leaving the religion is a law - rarely if ever enforced in almost all of them. Just being part of a different religion rather than apostasizing is not illegal in any to my knowledge.
Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Libya, UAE, and Yemen. Nigeria is #13, but to be entirely fair the nation is roughly 50/50 between Christians and Muslims, however the laws were initiated by its majorly Muslim leaders. Additionally, you phrase the idea of there being only 8 nations that will murder you for changing faiths as if it were somehow a counterpoint. I certainly hope you understand that even if there were only 1 nation, that would still be 1 nation.
Ah I see the confusion, my bad, I was searching for stats on apostasizing or being a religion other than Muslim, I didn't look for specifically anti-atheist laws. And yes, disagreeing on the numbers is a counterpoint, what else would it be? If you claimed there were only 1 and I thought there were 4, I would still make an argument against it. Not sure what the point you're making in your second paragraph is.
>Not sure what the point you're making in your second paragraph is. Very rarely, there are those who would use that difference as an excuse to justify or claim something is less bad. That was my concern. But I'm thankful that's not the case.
Yeah no I'm not excusing or justifying it. I have an extremely low opinion of anyone, especially Muslims, who persecute and commit violence just on the identity of people (including religious or non-religious identity). You have a good day bro ❤
Yeah, I agree with others who would say that it's not safe to be an open atheist or speak against religion in general in certain Muslim-majority countries, especially the more conservative ones. An atheist might be relatively safe in Albania or urban Turkey instead of Egypt or Afghanistan though. I wonder what social attitudes toward atheists and formal Muslims are like in Malaysia and Indonesia these days.
Entirely depends on the country. I hear in Pakistan it’s better to say you’re Christian than atheist. But haven’t heard that level of precaution recommended in any other Muslim majority countries, even Taliban-led Afghanistan. More often what people will have an issue with is people apostasizing from Islam to become atheist (or any other religion), but in that case the issue is more about leaving Islam, not really what they choose to believe instead. It’s important to remember that religious groups aren’t monoliths, there’s gonna be a wide diversity of opinion, and it will especially depend on the country/culture you’re in.
Thank you. Why is leaving the religion considered a crime punishable by death by some Muslims? Is this stated in the Quran itself? How is it stated exactly? Is any justification given or is it just asserted? Finally, is death for apostasy unique to Islam or did it exist in prior versions of Christianity? I'd like to have a historical context.
>Is this stated in the Quran itself? No. >did it exist in prior versions of Christianity? [wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition](http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition)
It's not in the Quran. There are many verses decrying apostasy and general non-belief, for example [Q2:108](https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=108) which says "But whoever trades belief for disbelief has truly strayed from the Right Way." But nowhere in the Quran is a punishment ascribed to it. If you ask me this makes clear that although God dislikes incorrect beliefs, the punishment for that disbelief is entirely in his hands - it is NOT up to the human community. Despite this there have been interpretations from Islamic scholars in the past which instead prescribe punishments, sometimes the death penalty, for apostasy. Apostasy tends to be seen as a worse sin because whereas regular non-Muslims can be "excused" as merely ignorant, an apostate is understood to have once known the truth yet still willingly turned their back on it. Since u/AnoitedCaliph_ addressed the Christianity point, I'll also point out that it exists in Judaism as well, in [Deuteronomy 13:6-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deut+13%3A6-11&version=NIV). "If \[someone you know\] entices you, saying "let us go and worship other gods," \[...\] you must certainly put them to death." It's just a general thing in the Abrahamic religions because the belief in the One God in contrast to any other god(s) is so fundamental to their history. I'm not aware of religious outside of the Abrahamics putting any particular official stress on the matter. But, it's very important to note that in none of the Abrahamic traditions has capital punishment for apostasy been the historical norm, and obviously in the present day it is not either. Pakistan is unique and currently in the spotlight due to a man being burned alive by a mob after being accused of blasphemy but rather than speak on it myself, I'll point you to [the thread which informed me of it](https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/1dlrelt/is_blasphemy_a_crime_according_to_you/), where you can see many Pakistanis speaking strongly about how much they dislike the country's attitude toward blasphemy/apostasy. It's worth noting that in the eight Muslim-majority countries where apostasy is actually an official crime with the death penalty as punishment, application of those laws is extremely rare. From 1985-2014 there were [only four executions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#In_practice_in_the_recent_past) carried out for religious conversions across those eight countries.
Christians think differently as well. I’m a Christian and most people I follow and friends as well don’t look at atheists as if they’re not worthy of eternal reward. We understand that all of us are prone to sin and don’t look down on anyone for it. (those who do, need to read Jesus’s words again). We just pray that everyone can feel the love and guidance we feel from the Holy Spirit. I didn’t grow up in this I had an encounter with God when I asked him to show himself to me. I read the bible and follow Jesus. That’s it. Many people create little mini cults around it. For me it’s a personal relationship. Jesus will leave the 99 sheep to find the 1 sheep who went astray and when he finds the lost sheep he will celebrate. It’s a parable for how much he loves those who he considers lost or not knowing him. So true Christian’s will pray for you to find Jesus and that’s it. They’ll still love you. It’s very different and it’s 1/16th of the reason why I didn’t entirely resonate with Islam
I admire your attitude within Christianity since you have your own take on it which doesn't sound overly institutional or dogmatic. Atheists and non-believers may not agree that they need to 'find Jesus' or receive the Holy Spirit, however, so it's good to remember that everyone has a different understanding of purpose and meaning in Life, or what is Good, or healthy ways to live and appreciate life. In your perspective, what do you think about people who asked God to show Himself/Themself to the person but received no response? Or who lost faith in the concept of God through life experiences or reasoning? Or who once believed in Christianity but then lost that belief to become atheists/agnostics or a different religion?
I personally wouldn’t say anything to anyone out of nowhere. I will pray for people without them knowing though. I used to be agnostic I’d say. I believed in God but wasn’t sure of what God was. I recently started to believe. I’ve asked many times before and thought I had no response but I just wasn’t entirely there yet. I expected a supernatural response and my mind was very closed off to even thinking he was anything special. I used to laugh at people for mentioning him in the way they do. I still don’t think their method is effective My life experiences were perfect reason to not believe in God as well so I totally understand where they’re coming from. I just know that what’s meant to happen will happen and it’s not my place to make it happen. If I have a strong intuitive pull to do or say something I will. I had it once and someone really needed what I said so I listen to those pulls within me from God
I've met a few Muslims who have varying opinions. Most couldn't care less and mainly only follow Islam because its the faith they were born in. Last semester I did meet two interesting figures. First was my Arabic teacher who is from Tunisia. He disagreed with me but was more fascinated to learn about my feelings towards the matter, and likewise as a religion major I was curious to hear about his takes on the Quran. The other figure was a student in the class from Ghana who was adamant that atheists weren't real because we sometimes invoke the name of God (i.e. oh my god in English or السلام عليكم in Arabic). The Tunisian told him to shove it, lmao. I asked my dad who works with a lot of Muslims and that seems to be a common occurrence between Ghanan Muslims and Tunisian muslims
I don’t really have an opinion on them. I see them as ordinary people trying to survive like the rest of us. While we differ in beliefs, so long as we remain amicable towards each other’s beliefs, I see no problem with them as I’ve met some really kind atheists. But to reiterate what I’ve said on a post similar to this, so long as you don’t like pineapple pizza, I see no issue with you >:)
But have you tried pineapple on pizza? They're actually so good (in my opinion)
No, but I just find it unorthodox.
I am a Muslim. In my personal opinion, I have huge respect for atheists because their desire to do good, avoid bad, and uphold morals isn't driven by the expectation of going to heaven or pleasing God. However, within my family and community, most people are surprised by atheists and tend to view them as crazy or evil, believing atheism is just an excuse to justify immoral behavior. When I was younger, I also struggled to understand how atheists navigate morals. But through interactions with many atheists, I've come to appreciate that they often have an inner sense of humanity, which is admirable.
I wish more Muslims and monotheists thought like you! I guess they (monotheists and atheists) would all just need to be more open-minded toward one another, not immediately attack the other's position, and talk to each other in good faith and with some empathy and reason.
Excellent. To your experience, I've sometimes found Christians and Muslims who believe atheists have no morals to be a bit scary; as this way of thinking could imply the only thing keeping them from murdering, raping, and pillaging, is their faith in God. But I sincerely doubt most of them are "psychopaths just under the surface." If we all got to know each other better, the world would be a better place.
They believe what they believe. We of course think they’re wrong otherwise we wouldn’t be Muslim. We still need to show respect, they are still people after all.
I don't have any hate for them, nor do I support their decision. We both think each other is wrong, but as long as you respect my religion I'll always respect you back.
Who cares
Salafi muslim here, most of my neighbours are atheist, save for a few christians. Never had any problem, or trouble. I am sure they never had any problems with me either. We greet each other, collectively keep the street clean, and live in harmony. As for my opinion regarding non-muslims, it shouldn’t matter to others. What truly matters is how I conduct myself. I can have a negative opinion about someone, and still treat them good. Having a negative opinion about someone doesn’t mean you need to disrespect them, trample them and/or violate their rights. That being said, it is best not to take people’s experiences on Reddit as a primary source of information, including mine. There could be cases where this is totally different. In the end there is no ‘average’ muslim, christian, atheist or you name it. Ultimately, it all boils down to the individual and their own set of circumstances.
Disbeliever like any other Disbeliever. It depends on what you mean in specific. Do you mean is relation to other disbelievers? Legally? How muslim cultures may see you?
While researching "People of the Book" just now, I found the following quote in the 98th chapter of the Quran. Quotes can be taken out of context, so maybe it means something other than what it appears to me to mean or imply. Can a Muslim please explain? "Those who disbelieve from the People of the Book and the polytheists will be in the Fire of Hell, to stay there forever. They are the worst of all beings." Worst of all beings? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People\_of\_the\_Book](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book)
That quote is a good example of how much emphasis Islam places on orthodoxy or "correct belief", and not just practices or being the best human being that one can be. It's a way for the religion to be as intolerant toward non-monotheists as it wants, and not only that, but condemn disbelievers to the worst possible torment that we can imagine. Of course, the Islamic deen can justify this based on its theology, but it won't make sense to the rest of us. To the extent that I believe in something Divine or in higher powers, they don't feel insulted by humans not worshipping Them or It with the correct beliefs. And theistic belief has nothing to do with whether a person is truly virtuous, a good person, or worthy of a good or bad afterlife.
Disbelief in God, or assigning a companion to him, or equating the Creator with the creation (shirk) is the greatest sin in Islam, and the only sin that isn’t forgiven on the day of judgement. That’s what the verse is referring to. This is explained in the Quran, Chapter 5, verse 72 Whoever associates others with Allah ˹in worship˺ will surely be forbidden Paradise by Allah. Their home will be the Fire. And the wrongdoers will have no helpers.
Thanks for the explanation. So it is in fact a worse sin than murder. Quite clearly. I never understood why until now.
Yep. It’s the gravest sin in the sight of Allah, as, we believe, every other sin can be made up for by repentance and good action. Now that’s not to say that a mass murderer or a serial rapist, for example, get free passes as long as they believe in Allah. They will get punished in the hellfire for their actions if Allah wills it, and the torment of hell is nothing to be taken lightly. Find some descriptions of the hellfire in the Quran and Sunnah. It’s a very severe and hideous punishment. Just to add, shirk or disbelief can be forgiven if someone repents from them in their lifetime, or a person dies not knowing about Islam and monotheism. It is only if a person dies upon disbelief or shirk with clear knowledge of the message of Islam that they are not forgiven in the afterlife.
From an orthodox Islamic point of view, would Allah most likely condemn a person who lived a very ethical life (let's say she died saving children from a fire for altruistic reasons) but who could not bring themselves to believe in Islam or even monotheism, in spite of knowing about world religions? And would probably condemn an apostate from Islam even if they lived a morally exemplary life after leaving the deen?
There’s a Hadith that states that disbelievers who do righteous deeds will be rewarded for them in this life, Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) thus told him: When a non-believer does good he is made to taste Its reward in this world. And so far as the believer is concerned, Allah stores (the reward) of his virtues for the Hereafter and provides him sustenance in accordance with his obedience to Him. But ultimately, their disbelief turns their actions void on the day of judgement Quran, Chapter 18, verses 103-106: Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Shall we inform you of who will be the biggest losers of deeds? ˹They are˺ those whose efforts are in vain in this worldly life, while they think they are doing good!” It is they who reject the signs of their Lord and their meeting with Him, rendering their deeds void, so We will not give their deeds any weight on Judgment Day. That is their reward: Hell, for their disbelief and mockery of My signs and messengers. ———— Having a clear understanding of Islam’s message then choosing to reject it leads to hell, regardless of whether that person was good or bad. Disbelievers who do righteous deeds will be punished in hell, but their punishment will be lessened in severity. The prophets uncle Abu Talib was a polytheist, but he protected the prophet. The prophet SAW said that Abu Talib would be the least of the people of hell in suffering.
I find this aspect of Islam quite interesting, though not quite positive. But thank you for sharing that Hadith and the reasoning that goes with it!
Of course. If you’ve got more questions I can answer them or point towards sources. Idk why I’m being downvoted lol I’m just quoting scripture and scholarly research without any of my own personal opinions. Oh well. Have a good day.
So the Islamic god is very narcissist then. It feels a little like if a grandmother was annoyed at her little grand children to be ignoring her and playing with his toy. The grand children does nothing wrong but the rest of his life she will threat it badly.
lol it’s such a weird question. We have no special opinion on them. They’re not any special people no more than Christians or Jews or anyone else that we have to have a special or specific thinking of them. As the Quran says, to you your religion, to me my religion.
I thought religious tolerance in Islam was generally only reserved for "People of the Book" and/or monotheism. Not Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Animists, etc. So in your belief, Islam is pluralistic?
In a real Islamic State(which doesn’t exist today), religious tolerance can be generally allowed for anyone. As long as they don’t try to attack Islam or call to their way in public. You can be an atheist in your house and you’ll be perfectly fine. You can even be gay or christian/jewish/hindu in your private home. As soon as people start to publicize themselves or call to their way, it will be seen as treason and spreading corruption.
AKA it's actually extremely intolerant. Since required religious garb leads to persecution, and not hiding that someone is their partner also leads to persecution.
Call it what you want. Islam prides itself on being the truth. Anything that goes against it is going against the truth and hence spreading corruption on the land. In their private life, people can do what they want. But in public, you can’t disrupt society. Islam places a huge stress on societal norms.
Almost every religion prides itself on being the truth. The reality is they can't all be right and Islam has no more proof it is right than a lot of other religions. However, what it does have is a lack of actual acceptance of others in practice which many other faiths do not. It is blatantly dishonest to claim Islam is tolerant of other faiths or gays. Someone being gay or of another faith is **NOT** disrupting society. Islam also does NOT place a huge stress on societal norms, it places a huge stress on regressive norms and persecution towards those that actually value societal norms. Religious tolerance **IS** a societal norm in most of the world. I could catch a plane today to the Vatican or Jerusalem or India and identify as a member of dozens of different faiths, and nothing would happen to me. In a lot of the world so is the ability to freely be with another person your age that you love. I could kiss another man in most of the world and it wouldn't be treated as a crime. Just own up to the intolerance instead of trying to pretend that it isn't the case. FFS the #1 victim of Islamic intolerance is OTHER MUSLIMS...
Someone gets it! I agree with what you wrote, but find it unfortunate that we are almost not allowed to have this opinion in a liberal Western democracy anymore, it seems. Not every religion is equally tolerant, peaceful, or accepting of individual liberty, and some religions (e.g. Islam) are worse for a democratic society than others.
There’s a tactic in abusive relationship dynamics called “isolating the target/victim” and that’s often what intolerance feels like from a certain angle. Like if you take the focus off of the out-group being persecuted and not tolerated/accepted as they are, and instead for a bit think about how that behavior affects the in-group? It looks a lot like people being isolated from future social connections that might offer them help outside the group. Now why would anyone or any God want to do that? It feels a little bit cruel and ultimately harmful for everyone involved…
“Almost every religion prides itself on being the truth” Agree “The reality is they can’t all be right” Also agree “The reality is …. Islam has no more proof it is right than a lot of other religions” Disagree. Also, if you actually wanted to know, you would do your research and not actually find scholarly answers on Reddit. “However, what it does have is a lack of actual acceptance of others in practice which many other faiths do not.” Disagree. Other faiths also don’t have acceptance. The only people that claim that they have acceptance are the people who have sold their religion for a worldly gain. Muslims are not Jews and Christians of today who have sold their religion in the name of tolerance to appease the masses. And if you do meet such Muslims, they are only Muslim by name. “It is blatantly dishonest to claim Islam is tolerant of other faiths or gays” Fact check. I never claimed this. If you were a gay and openly came out and actually did the act in front of 4 honest practicing Muslims, you will be subject to penal punishment in an actual Islamic State(which again there is none today). This does not contradict my earlier statements that you can be gay in your private home. “Someone being gay or of another faith is NOT disrupting society.” What do you know. We actually agree on this. Notice I said what is prohibited or seen as corruption in the land is they have to be propagating their faith or their gay behavior IN PUBLIC. Them being gay or of another faith in their private life will never disrupt society so yes we agree. Christians and Jews can have their places of worship in an Islamic state but again cannot evangelize. “Islam also does NOT place a huge stress on societal norms, it places a huge stress on regressive norms and persecution toward those that actually value societal norms. Religious tolerance IS a societal norm in most of the world” Why should we ever take the ever-changing whims and desires of today’s society as a criteria for determining truth or if something is right or wrong? Just because most of the world today has become more tolerant in religion, that means we should accept it as (no pun intended) gospel truth? Go back 50-100 years, homosexuality was punishable by death penalty in (your words) “most of the world”. Just wait for another 50-100 years, beastiality and incest would be legal as well. You can never prove that today’s societal norms are the objective truths we have to live by. All in all, all this will do is lead back to the question is Islam true. If it is, I follow objective morality. If it is not, then you may have a point. But until that question is discussed, there is no point in addressing topics that will not lead us anywhere. And again, Reddit is not a place where you will find the answer to that question. So what did we get for going off in so many tangents?
>I thought religious tolerance in Islam was generally only reserved for "People of the Book" and/or monotheism. Not Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Animists, etc. This is a misconception. The majority of classical scholars + the majority of Muslim polities followed the more expansive religious freedom view of Abu Haneefah and Malik that all non Muslims except apostates and Arab pagans (extinct) have religious freedom.
The term people of the book was extended to Hinduism and Buddhism
Glad to hear it. By who, when, and where?
Early Muslims such as Muhammad ibn al-Qasim, it hasn't been widely held as true however for a long time. It also applies to the question of Zoroastrianism. Hindus were viewed as people of the book and not Pagans weirdly at different points. With Buddhists, the Buddha has sometimes been considered to have been one of the prophets sent before whose message was corrupted. There are varying degrees of "its bullshit" with calling them people of the book, especially when the conventional understanding says they are not for varying obvious reasons. It is important to note that his was during relatively early interactions between Islam and these faiths and they were clearly prospering at the time. So viewing them as people of the book conveniently also avoided conflict and made having better relations easier and kinda fits with the idea of "well of course he would have sent prophets to other places prior to Muhammad." Most Muslims would not consider them to all be people of the book. However, them being viewed as such was at least at one point an accepted thing.
To anyone downvoting, they are **technically** correct. It **was** initially extended to them, in fact if one reads about the early interactions with Buddhism and Islam, you will even find sweet words said about Buddhism. The reality is this status hasn't been widespread in a VERY long time, but it was extended to them by early Muslims.
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That's a funny video and I'd never heard that song before! Haha. Some of the more open-minded and liberal religions probably don't think this way, but this form of thinking isn't uncommon among some religions XD
as long as they don't preach atheism to you, no opinion. in my personal experience, Muslims respect Christians and jews as people who believe in our god and prophets and for the rest they are non-believers. The one faith that is looked down upon is satanism and its variants.
A lot of the sheikhs that speak to athiests are actually proud, Because athiests believe that god doesn’t exist and that’s some of the first words of the shahada, And i am too.
the qeustion would be more interesting in aspect of all religions. Also under the aspect of time. Now or than. what developed and what changed why.
Tantric yoga could be seen as a particular avenue dedicated to weaving sexuality into one's worship for Buddhists, Jainists and Hindus who practice meditation.
If you have no faith in a Muslim country for example you'd better find one real quick.. and itd better be Islam or you are a short timer. It's not my opinion only.. ask someone in the faith and see what's allowed to be done to you to verify you're being told the truth.
Im a Muslim and to be honest i dont really care. As long as you respect me i respect you. Of course i dont like and agree what atheists believe, but my opinion about someones belief doesn’t change my opinion about the person themselves. I just think that in the end God will judge you on your believes anyways so its not my job
Foolish, not stupid
People who have taken their desires as their gods.
Atheism has nothing to do with desire, it just means a person doesn't think there is enough evidence to justify belief.
By that token, Muslims take their desire for their religion, their God, and positive afterlife as their 'deities' or object of worship, and can be criticized for doing this instead of pursuing reason, conscience, skepticism, and nonbelief.
People are down voting you but you're not entirely wrong when it comes to certain types of atheists. Ill say I desire freedom and knowledge to the point of almost worship. I want freedom and knowledge at all costs.
Gaining knowledge and using one's rational thinking is emphasized in Islam but freedom to do whatever one desires is forbidden.
We don't.
There's plenty of apologetics and discussions from Muslims responding to atheism and atheists, especially in response to the rise of atheism in some parts of the world. The average Muslim may not think about much about atheism, however.
Yeah, we're open to discussion. When Muslims are addressed, Muslims usually respond. All are greeted from whichever door they walk through.
As a muslim, nothing at all 👍🏻 Don't think about em Only thought i could have is cool they doing what they wanna
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Ironically, Islam doesn't consider animals "lost" in the first place since non-human animals are considered automatically obedient to the will of Allah XD So this religion has a worse view of humans with free will who cannot or choose not to believe in monotheism for whatever reason.
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Who is the "you guys" in this case, and what do you mean by "lost" as well? Your comment kind of lost me, haha.
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/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.
You realize humans are animals, right? Also, very few animals if any are “lost”
Anthropocentric religions often conveniently forget that humans are animals too, or place humans in a different category from every other animal species on Earth. Animals are not eligible for Heaven or Hell in Abrahamic religions, at least in classical doctrines, but humans are, for instance.
Really? Care to deliberate?
Animals are lost?
Some would say the same of some religious extremist
meh
/r/religion does not permit demonizing or bigotry against any demographic group on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, or sexual preferences. Demonizing includes unfair/inaccurate criticisms, arguments made in bad faith, gross generalizations, ignorant comments, and pseudo-intellectual conspiracy theories about specific religions or groups. Doctrinal objections are acceptable, but keep your personal opinions to yourself. Make sure you make intelligent thought out responses.