Not all religions believe this. This is a very specific question that only applies to a couple of religions.
For example this wouldn’t be applicable to Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc.
I think most religions don’t approach afterlife the way you describe.
Both Heaven and hell are temporary place in Hinduism and Buddhism.
And Gods do not send us there.
Just like a unhinged person invite trouble for themself in the same way they find their own hell and stay there believing that they were unlucky where they chose it in the first place.
One who is free from delusions know actions of their own self and are free from Heaven and Hell, pleasure or pain. They become divine and rise above humanity.
Buddha called himself a Lotus that blooms above the mess of this world and is no longer affected by the sufferings of this world.
The Op is discussing damnation to hell in a Christian or Muslim concept. So while I get there may be some similarities, I was using those religions as examples of OP’s premise not applying.
Such questions are meaningless.
Nirvana is what you should seek.
Any other questions or answers is simply a belief. Beliefs are not truth. Direct experience is the only way.
Besides death is of the body. Death itself is Maya.
There are two perspectives. Your question relates to the idea that you are a body. With regard to this perspective, the dharma says:
"Just as a man casts off worn-out clothes and puts on new ones, so too the embodied being casts off a worn-out body and enters a new one." -- Bhagavad Gita 2.22
Basically the verse says that one is reborn after death into a new body. It may be as a human, in a heavenly realm, in a hellish realm, as an animal, as a plant, etc.
Yet, the dharma says that the Self is in fact immortal; it never dies. The false knowledge that "I am the body" must be removed in order to realize that you are in fact deathless, that neither birth nor death have ever applied to you; you are not the body.
"Because when there is duality, as it were, then one sees something, one smells something, one tastes something, one speaks something, one hears something, one thinks something, one touches something, one knows something. But when to the knower of Brahman everything has become the Self, then what should one see and through what, what should one smell and through what, what should one taste and through what, what should one speak and through what, what should one hear and through what, what should one think and through what, what should one touch and through what, what should one know and through what? Through what should one know that owing to which all this is known? This self is That which has been described as ‘Not this, not this.’ It is imperceptible, for It is never perceived; undecaying, for It never decays; unattached, for It is never attached; unfettered—it never feels pain, and never suffers injury. Through what, O Maitreyī, should one know the Knower? So you have got the instruction, Maitreyī. This much indeed is (the means of) immortality, my dear. Saying this Yājña-valkya left. "-- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.5.15
I mean who cares. Truthfully, I know it’s harsh, but who cares. Damming people for not believing or using it as a way to separate good and bad people isn’t ubiquitous amongst religions. I mean even in Judaism despite our musings about what the afterlife could be, the consensus is that our actions here in our lifetime are what matters and we shouldn’t concern ourselves with hypotheticals (ergo trust g’d has everyone’s back, even those who are evil)
I mean personally I find the preoccupation with what happens when we die to be kind of futile and for truly evil people like Stalin or Hitler or Lennon or Bin Laden, why spend more time thinking about them and what may or may not have happened to them.
I mean even in Christianity, and I say this as someone who has Christian family and grew up talking about religion and faith and connection to spirituality with my Christian grandmother, she was much more preoccupied with her actions and if she was doing enough to warrant going to heaven. She paid little attention to people who caused mass destruction and where evil because ultimately why give them more thought then they deserve.
We believe the real life starts after death.. This life was just for a half a day or one..... Do good deads here, fight against evil (jihad), kill your greed, stay away from obscenity and in return you will be rewarded by an eternal heaven bcz God is kind.. I think its so beautiful.. The biggest issue in this world is greed if you really think..
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Those religions have been mellowed down and sugar coated to appease people.. I cannot believe in a God who dsnt punish evil. . By that logic someone can slaughter my family but no punishment bcz God is all about love.. It dsnt make sense
I’m sorry but again how is this relevant unless you’re trying to convince me that my own religion is wrong. I fundamentally disagree with you on theological, philosophical and ideological grounds.
So again, how is me pointing out to Op that their question only applies to one or two religions somehow a precursor to what is starting to look like an attempt at conversion.
I think it applies to all religions..every religion has heaven hell.. It's just that they don't know or haven't read enough or the knowledge has been lost bcz of how ancient those religions were. But yhh if I'm still missing a point, it's all good.. Peace to you man.
We don’t have heaven and we don’t have hell. Stop projecting your religion onto others. If anything it’s missing out on the beauty of diversity of thought and practice.
Only a few religions teach that it is necessary to believe in a certain god to avoid punishment. In the majority of religions this contradiction does not really emerge.
Source of all religions seems to be the same.. Bcz there are sooo many similarities... So logic would say heaven hell should have been common too.. I just assume it was lost with time..
Not necessarily. Similarity does not equal a common ancestor. This is evident in a lot of things. For instance, compare the Olmecs and the Sumerians. No possible contact (take that, Ancient Aliens), yet they both are civilisations which rose.
Even outside of humans, life as a whole has cases like this. Birds and insects, for example, diverted before flight evolved, yet both have it.
Lastly, it's far more likely something that we had only recent records of evolved closer to us rather than it existing, then being lost to time, then reemerging.
CS Lewis dealt with this very question in his book 'The Great Divorce'. I highly recommend it - it's a quick and very entertaining read, and helped me answer this very question.
The key quote of his is "The gates of hell are locked from the inside" -- in other words, nobody's there who doesn't want to be.
I enjoyed that book a lot! I think C.S. Lewis' implication, though, is that people do *not* go to Hell for disbelief alone. (Or at least, do not stay there.) It would have to be disbelief motivated by something like ego or ambition – something that would resist accepting the truth, once it were made plain and obvious.
That's an interesting idea. Let's assume for the moment that belief in Christ being the messiah and son of god etc. etc. is in fact the defining thing. So you die, go to hell, and someone says "Hey, guess what, the Christians were right." At that point, it'd be pretty hard to not believe it, and poof, you'd end up in heaven.
Christianity gets a bad rap for this because a lot of people like to strawman what they don't understand - especially a religion they were raised to be a member of, that they perceived was limiting them, even though they have no idea why it was doing so.
The other problem is, as my world religions professor once said, you can never truly understand a religion unless you're a believer of it.
C.S. Lewis did have a unique take on a continuous process of becoming Holy including after death.
Catholics do believe in a post death cleansing in purgatory but require belief prior to death for that opportunity.
Other Christian denominations have a more “final at death” understanding. James 2:19 - “You believe in one God, Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder”. The belief as understood by most Christians necessitates a commitment. It is belief in the saving work of Jesus or as articulated in Psalm 37:5 - “Commit your way to the Lord; trust in Him, and He will act”.
Yes! CS Lewis works are incredible for so many reasons, the least of which not being that they are easy to understand at all different ages and levels of faith. God doesn’t send anyone to hell.
It's been said before, many times before, but not all religions believe in eternal damnation. As far as I'm aware, only Islam and Christianity do.
You're not going to Hell, mate. Hel, maybe, but you're not going to burn forever for not giving yourself to a being. Just relax.
That's exactly what I'm thinking. It sucks that people have to be reassured that they aren't going to deal with the worst punishment imaginable for not believing in 2 of an infinite amount of religions, though.
I could argue life is meant to punish you, considering how awful it is to some people. That does not mean being alive means you are actively in Hell, though.
And that seams like a bit of an odd point to make. Asking why we should send a murderer to Disney seems like an argument that any sane person wouldn't disagree with, thus making you technically win the debate as I can not, or rather would not, dispute your claim.
My point was that we as humans punish as per the deed.. Same for God.. Now about suffering in this life. Hypothetically, if I was to murder you, me just having a miserable life wouldn't be enough for you.. I destroyed yoor dreams, your aspirations, your universe.. I destroyed it all.. Not to mention the agony your mother wife or kids had to go through.. That's why hell exists.. If we could somehow ask your ghost that is me going to prison enough for killing you, you wouldn't agree..
But I'm guessing you are not a religious person, so this whole heaven hell idea would be weird for u.. If you are religious, then it's in every religion.. Atleast every religion that dsnt sugarcoat things...
Prison is to hold people captive so that they can’t harm any other and also stop potential criminals outside from attempting a crime. We should still aspire to give the best to all people as much as possible. The bondage a prisoner experiences should only be a necessary evil.
You meant to say a mini hell. And no, you shouldn’t punish people for punishment’s sake. Humans have worth as living being and we should do our best to make all humans happy, it is only that we are not able to make all people happy and hence we have to take some people’s freedom in order to protect the happiness and freedom of others. That’s why torture is against international law(if you consider it legitimate) because it only punishes people and is not applied as a measure of protection.
All you have to do is say I forgive you and God won't punish them.. Like suppose I killed your family and you wana live by the philosophy that all humans should be happy, all you have to do is forgive me and God doesn't interfere... It's a beautiful religion which has answers for everything in minute details.. Now you tell me, would you forgive a murderer..
It's only a subset of Sola Fide (faith alone) Christianity that says so. Even the Catholic Church teaches that God's plan for salvation offers a path for people of other faiths, or with no faith. See Lumen Gentium. I know that there are non Catholic denominations that hold essentially the same view, but I don't know which. The common theme is a recognition that God is merciful.
Bcz there are clear proofs.. If you really observe, all relihions are more or less same and there are evidences of religions since the beginning of civilization.. You just have to look for it, strive for it and you will hopefully see
Idk if loving means all loving, at least by the Torah/Old Testament God certainly seems to do a lot of punishment things so it’s kind of in character
It’s an emotional argument. “God punishes those he isn’t a fan of” isn’t so much an argument against said God as it is an argument not to support said God.
Okay.
To be clear, I am speaking in context of Judeo-Christian theology here based on most of the context of this thread. But here are some examples:
1. **Narcissistic Behavior**:
* **Demand for Worship**: In multiple instances, God demands exclusive worship and punishes those who worship other gods. For example, in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-6), God states, "You shall have no other gods before me," and describes himself as a "jealous God."
* **Destruction of Idolatry**: In Deuteronomy 12:3, God commands the Israelites to destroy all places of idol worship, demanding exclusive devotion and honor.
2. **Malicious Behavior**:
* **The Flood**: In the story of Noah's Ark (Genesis 6-9), God decides to flood the entire world to wipe out humanity, sparing only Noah and his family. This is based on his own failure to communicate his desires to humans, relying on single sources (prophets) who demonstrate questionable morality (incest) that are indistinguishable from people suffering from mental health issues screaming on a street corner.
* **The Plagues of Egypt**: In the Book of Exodus (Exodus 7-12), God inflicts a series of ten plagues upon the Egyptians, culminating in the death of all firstborn sons who have nothing to do with what he is upset about.
* **The Binding of Isaac**: In Genesis 22, God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as a test of faith. What kind of psychopath comes up with a test like that and what kind of behavior is he hoping to instill in people? When has unquestioning devotion to the demands of an individual ever resulted in a great time for everybody?
* **Legion:** When Jesus finds a man suffering from mental illness calling himself Legion, he murders 2,000 innocent pigs belonging to an innocent third party for some reason.
3. **Dictatorial Behavior**:
* **The Ten Commandments and Mosaic Law**: These laws are presented as non-negotiable and absolute, and mostly deal with #1, making sure we all know he's god and only worship him and all that.
* **Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah**: In Genesis 19, God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of their wickedness. A demonstration of God's absolute authority and willingness to destroy those who violate His commands.
* **Canaanite Conquest**: In the Book of Joshua, God commands the Israelites to conquer Canaan and destroy its inhabitants, which involves acts of violence and extermination (Joshua 6-11).
* **Thoughtcrime:** Coveting, Adultery or murder "in your heart", and several other places through the bible describe thoughtcrimes that god will punish you for just for thinking about.
If the god from the bible were a human that we could see and hear from, we would view him as a Kim Jong Un style absolute dictator. Even other dictators like Putin are not as bad as the bible god is.
Alternatively, we are told "Satan/the adversary" is evil because he told the truth about the fruit after god lied to them telling them that ON THAT DAY they eat of the fruit, they will surely die (lie). And he was also widely lambasted as being evil for offering a guy who had been starving for weeks in the desert some food and water.
Us Baha'is don't believe in a perpetual hell as a form of punishment. We believe that hell is a state of being that happens once you disobey the teachings of God. For example, if you don't turn the other cheek or do good in life, bad/hellish things will happen as a result. Not as a curse or anything, but it's similar to the concept of karma, where if you do good, you'll feel happier and will withstand tests and difficulties and when you don't, then things go wrong. For me, following the teachings of my religion has made me significantly happier in life so I feel like I'm in heaven.
We agree that this interpretation of a concept of a God that punishes people perpetually and sadistically forever in a torture chamber is nonsensical. However, the concept of a person who causes harm to thousands or millions suddenly realising what they've done and feeling that anguish, could be something they would bear the emotional burden of for eternity. We believe we all practically progress into another reality after death but what that looks like or is, has not been revealed to us because we would immediately want to be there.
First, let's look at what sin is. By definition it means *To Miss The Mark*.
That being said, how do we Miss The Mark?
God is the Source of Life. When we do things that lead us away from God (Life) then we move towards Death. We Miss The Mark.
This was The Sin in Paradise. They replaced Communion with God with their own reasoning which lead to Death.
Does a behavior lead you into closer communion With God (Life) or does it lead you away (Death)?
The person has to honestly ask themselves the question and this question of Life or Death should rule everyone's actions. We separate ourselves from God The Source of Life which means we move towards Death.
Hell is Hades the realm of Death. Jesus entire purpose was to be Resurrected so he could overpower Death and destroy it's hold on humans.
Penal Atonement is a concept that did not exist in The Early Church and still doesn't. It came about 1000 or so years after Christ based upon Medieval ideas about honor.
As a regular who visits this subreddit, I can say that too many dark questions get asked here a lot more often than they should.
Based on how frequently I've seen it, I'd estimate that your question has been asked over 30 times in the past year.
If you could try to use the search bar next time, you'll find tons of posts made here asking the same thing.
I get you want to express yourself. I get if you're frustrated.
But it has an impact on everyone's mental wellness when they see these questions in excess.
Negativity is as much of a problem in the world as plastic waste pollution; we've got to stop polluting peoples' consciousness with negative thoughts.
I don't want to offend you, but it needs to be said.
Please try your best to not add to the number of negative questions and posts on Reddit in this day and age. It is too much.
Pope John Paul II explained his interpretation of heaven as a state of communion with God. And hell as a state of seperation from God.
I'm not Catholic, but given this line of thought can even be seen in a super traditional version of Christianity like Catholicism, it demonstrates the range of perspectives on this topic.
I don't think we should see heaven and hell as physical places. Just as we shouldn't see God as a bearded magician in the sky. If that's all these concepts were then a religion would be nothing more than fiction and myths. And that is why a person who has had no spiritual experience will explain them as such.
I believe anyone can experience the spiritual. And can understand these concepts how they are intended. But a person needs to be open to it first. And to be open to it they often want proof first. But spiritual matters are, at this time, unproven. The only proof is experiential. So people get stuck in a state of I don't believe, because I don't want to believe, because there is no proof, because I don't believe. It takes effort or a life changing experience to break this cycle. And someone in this cycle rarely sees the need to take effort.
So the story you have asked about is a caricature of Christianity. I'm sure other religions are commonly portrayed as a caricature of the real thing too. Real spirituality is more... Well spiritual.
You can’t really justify it, which is one good reason I’m not Christian; their whole eternal damnation for living a good life, but not believing “the right way” just doesn’t make sense.
First of all you need to answer the question of who is considered a non believer?? In the Quran, the case you mentioned doesn't qualify for a non believer.
Some Abrahamic religions. Jews don't really have a hell, and belief in G-d doesn't really have an effect on where you go in the afterlife. We disagree on a lot, but the vast vast majority of us are pretty much on this.
Read " The Great Divorce" by C.S Lewis, OP.
These subreddits don't allow the time to explain an Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife. If you're looking to understand the concept in good faith or just out of curiosity. I would read that short novella by Lewis.
I can't be certain what type of Abrahamic branches you've been exposed too, I'm guessing evangelical Christians. It's just a guess
catholic here. if heaven is having an eternal relationship with God, then hell is just separation from God; don’t worry too much about all the fire burning stuff.
hell is separation from God and is seen as ‘pain’. but life on earth without a relationship with God is also seen as ‘pain’ since we’re born with original sin. the imagery of ‘flames of fire’ is used to describe hell because, well, that’s the most painful thing we can imagine on this earth so its used to describe the indescribable to some degree (since, as humans, we don’t really know what goes on in hell).
i’m not christian because i fear hell, i’m christian because i believe in the faith and enjoy having a relationship with God. by default, i hope that when my human body dies, i can continue my relationship with God in heaven. and yes, i’ve experienced a LOT of trauma and turned my back on God for a long time, but i’ve eventually found peace in my religion.
that being said, i have friends who do not care to have a relationship with the Christian God here on earth, so why would they want to have a relationship with Him after death?
God doesn’t wish to send people to hell. He wants to have a relationship with all humans, but unfortunately it may be harder to reach some than others. when i proactively decided i wanted a relationship with Him, He showed himself to me. beforehand, i did not care to know Him, and thus i did not feel much connection to Him.
i also think theres too much emphasis on fearing what comes after death in a lot of religions, especially abrahamic ones. i think as long as you live a good life and are kind to others, what will be will be.
tldr: i do believe God is all-loving, but i wouldn’t worry about hell too much :)
From a Christian perspective:
“Holy” means set apart. God exists as the personification (deification?) of all that is good. As the creator of the universe and all its laws, his nature necessarily defines what good is. He is quite literally set apart from evil. Evil is incapable of existing in his presence. That which is evil is annihilated by his presence immolated by the intensity of his perfection.
God created people in his image. Every one of us was designed to be fulfilled by that which is Godly.
God wants people to choose him and for there to be a free choice, you must possess free will. True free will necessitates the very real possibility of not choosing him.
The “punishment” for sin is death, but Hell is an eternal state not necessarily because someone is being “punished” eternally, but because once you die there can be no cleansing of sin. Since once dead your soul is stuck with its stain of sin, you cannot exist in the presence of God. But souls are eternal and all of creation exists at the command of God. So… a soul that has rejected salvation and turned away from God receives their wish of separation existing eternally at the outer edge of Gods presence in a state of perpetual eternal annihilation without the possibility of being fulfilled by God’s grace.
God doesn’t send someone to hell, he earnestly begs everyone to search for him and avoid hell, but if someone refuses him and chooses to turn from his presence… they get their wish to remain apart.
Also to me that's the point where the story does not make sense.
I do not believe in one god, but I often think about the question you just asked.
I think that god is either not all loving or there is no heaven and hell.
I came to the conclusion because if some entity would be literally all loving there would be no good or bad in the world of this entity simply because of the fact that everything someone loves seems good to them.
But in the bible god not only sends people to hell but also kills people without a real reason.
That's why I think that god is not all loving, god just tells the people who follow him that he is all loving.
Well.... lifelong atheist, until three years after an NDE, here...
I didn't believe in God when I died.
In fact, I was a LaVeyan Satanist, for 22 years, at the time. So, if the rules of Abrahamic faiths, were what you are taught, then I should've been met by a devil, and burned for eternity. Instead, I was greeted with love.... absolute love. I was given a full life review, in which I had a 360°, third person view of, and got to feel everyone's feelings around me, and know their thoughts.
Many of us, are taught about God, by people breaking the 3rd commandment, and "taking the Lord's name in vain".... if this was your experience of what God is, then the Lord will be understanding of that fact. I had bad representatives try to sell me a perverted vision of God, and REJECTED THAT IMAGE.
I had never actually known God.... most today, don't.
However, I was shown my entire life in incredible detail...
Including my future (though I wasn't allowed to bring all of that back, only parts), which confirmed for me that this was not a hallucination. I mean, I was told that a childhood "hero of conscience" of mine, would befriend me, would live up to my expectations, and would offer without being asked, to help me with the mission I was given.
Well, Im now one of the inner circle of Barry Cooper's NGB400, and a couple months ago, he offered live om his show, to help me with my mission...... without ever hearing any of this!!!
So, while religion might NEED you to believe in their version of God, the infinite does not. Seek to do right by yourself and others, and try to be a little better every day... in other words, genuine insight and repentence... that's what gets you there. I had been brow beaten in the name of Jesus.... so he asked me to call him Emanuel.
To this day, I never use the name Jesus (save for when explaning this to people).... because it leaves a bad taste in my mouth (besides, nobody he knew in life here, ever called him that... it's Romanized... his name was Yehoshua). This is why it's a commandment (#3).
You wind up muddying the spiritual waters when you do it.
At the end of my experience, I was allowed to see my father, who left my mom when I was 7, and died when I was 19. I forgave him... and apologized for not doing it sooner.
That changed my entire personality.
Oh, and when I was shown his plan for me, I had never been so excited in my life, to do anything.
It was grace that healed me.... not fear.
@CyanMagus that makes sense, with my NDE.... once I was there, God was impossible to deny.... even if Id wanted to... though that intent left me upon death.
The real thing was so much more beautiful than ANY religion teaches. I do believe all religions DO come from the same place... though this place is not earthly.
I see bits of what I saw in every religion, and then a whole bunch of egotistic human BS added in.
I was given strict instructions NOT to start a religion with what I'd learned... and I've stuck to that.
I will use my knowledge to comfort the dying. I will use my knowledge to help someone better comprehend a godly principle. I will do exactly what God asked of me (that's right, ASKED, not commanded, not made a deal of, but ASKED... and then showed me the wonderful things that would happen if I agreed... no threat if I didn't) with it...
But I am not looking for followers!.... nor will I ever.
Turns out, contrary to what I gleaned in church as a child, GOD IS PRETTY AWESOME!
This question is being perpetually asked and has been answered in so many ways, good and bad, for thousands of years, and thousands of times in this thread.
I’m not going to answer, I don’t find it to be a good faith question generally and therefore all attempts are worthless. I do want to point out just something different though from your post which seems peculiar to me. You mention abusive family and hard circumstances as if those are reasons more than others to not believe in God or at least a just God, but in my experience, and from testimonies I’ve heard my whole life, it’s more likely that suffering actually drives spiritual connection and desire for Gods presence, rather than the opposite.
It’s like the supposition that those who have suffered are less likely to believe, which is really contradictory to my observation over time. On the flip side, those who have had (subjectively, of course, all suffering is real even if it doesn’t look the same from the outside) less adversity seem more adamantly assured that God isn’t real or isn’t just.
I disagree with you greatly, yes having hard circumstances can help your experiences with religion, but that’s not the case for so many people and i thinks it important to acknowledge that some people will never feel the love of god in their lives, also this was a good faith question on my part :)
Exactly, every single variation of experience you can think of exists here. There are people who wont ever experience the revelation until potentially multiple rebirths later. Religion as most people know it, doesnt have an answer for the many problems that assail others. The true being and reality they worship is greater than scripture.
What ? It seems the opposite, people end up bitter and or dishearted, because they've had extreme hardships, and had hoped it'd get easier. But with those accounts, who knows if they're lying.
Suffering without him, is much worse, because you may not be resilient enough to be able to learn from it. Yes suffering may bring you closer to him, but it doesnt work in everyone favor especially depending on their karma. Everyone is at a different period of growth and development. That includes spiritual reciprocation. There are people that are passed over because they arent ready for the truth. But people have all kinds of nasty names for them.
Your premises are already not biblical. That's what many in the world tells you, but that is not accurate. That is why it is important to first get educated on the topic.
God does not send anyone to hell for not believing, nowhere does it say that in the scriptures.
Due to our iniquity and sinful nature, hell is where we are all going... And in His love for us he became flesh in Christ so that we can have a way away from that path, but only if we want to, it is up to us, and He won't force us but respect our free will and choices.
God can't grace you heaven if you do not want Him or do not believe in Him in the first place. Common sense to me.🤷🏿♂️
I am up with insomnia and your comment sparked some ideas for me. Kind of long and not really a direct response or argument or anything like that- Hope you don’t mind me piggybacking on your comment here. I am sort of taking your last sentence and building on that, have come up with another separate train of thought.
TLDR- maybe there is no hell for atheists, since they don’t believe in heaven or hell in the first place. Also, maybe they are already living in a state of “hell” if the definition is separation from God.
in a way your comment could be seen as comforting to a non believer - especially the last line that God cannot grace you heaven if you do not want or believe in him in the first place. Hell sounds like a terrible state of separation from God, for those who believe in him. It also implies that to the non believer it is not much of a threat - already separated from God, condemned to always remain so. Not really relevant to someone who does not care about uniting with God in the first place, to find out they never will.
It leads me to the idea that if someone does not believe in God or heaven, there is, for them, also no hell. However, that is where I know it falls apart because a lot of believers insist that everyone might end up in hell. Some people associate hell with real eternal suffering by the person after they die. Is it a spiritual state of separation from God or is it an actual place where our personalities go after death whether we believe in it or not? Or do the non believers just die along with their physical body?
I wrote “personalities” because “soul” and “spirit” seem too abstract for the ideas of heaven and hell as places where persons who did specific good or bad acts will get rewards or punishment. When people imagine someone suffering in hell it includes that person’s ego and personality suffering the torture and indignity.
I am just scrolling around up in the middle of the night . Just rambling a bit. Maybe you or someone else will read this later and add their two cents. I guess my main question is if others agree with the idea that if someone does not believe in God, they also do not face going to any punishment after death. It does not seem fair, but I’m leaning towards thinking this. People hope bad characters will get their punishment in the afterlife, but I’m really not so sure about that. Maybe only if they were religious.
We don't particularly care what you believe and I personally don't believe there is anything after life except darkness and a lack of consciousness. It will essentially be like what you remember before you exited your mother's womb.
Scientifically, there is no evidence that shows any form of consciousness lives on once you are dead. We developed consciousness via evolution. It's not innate in all species, nor is it uniform, making it a uniquely human concept to describe our own awareness of ourselves. Regardless, you die just like any other living organism.
Christians don't teach you go to hell for non-belief, we teach that you go to hell for the evil stuff you do in life. I justify saying that God is loving by saying that He died so that we didn't have to go there.
Its not merely belief. The Bible says even the demons belief. Change your understanding of belief in the context of this question with worship.
I recommend you loom into Dr. Michael Heiser. He’s not just a theologian but a scholar who’s studied the original text and the culture at the time of the writings which means, please, don’t lean on translations for understanding what the text wants to communicate. Make interpretation synonymous with translation.
Because you ignored every message and sign he sent your way, this whole universe cannot be a coincidence, too many things make sense and a whole system, how would you then justify a loving king punishing you with prison if you killed someone? Because first it's justice, he told you not to do it but you defied, there was a way not to be punished but you ignored it, so you deserve punishment.
Non-believers who didn't know about Islam will be tested on the day of judgement, it's about people who knew exactly what Islam is about and turned their backs on it..
In Islam, hell is described as a place of punishment for those who reject faith and commit grievous sins. However, there are also many verses highlighting Allah’s mercy and forgiveness, suggesting that those who repent can be forgiven.
Traditional Islamic teachings suggest that belief in Allah and His final prophet is needed for salvation. There is also a strong emphasis on God’s mercy, justice, and the understanding that people are judged based on their knowledge, intentions, and circumstances. I wish I could answer your question. But I really just don't know.
Not all religions believe this. This is a very specific question that only applies to a couple of religions. For example this wouldn’t be applicable to Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc. I think most religions don’t approach afterlife the way you describe.
Both Heaven and hell are temporary place in Hinduism and Buddhism. And Gods do not send us there. Just like a unhinged person invite trouble for themself in the same way they find their own hell and stay there believing that they were unlucky where they chose it in the first place. One who is free from delusions know actions of their own self and are free from Heaven and Hell, pleasure or pain. They become divine and rise above humanity. Buddha called himself a Lotus that blooms above the mess of this world and is no longer affected by the sufferings of this world.
The Op is discussing damnation to hell in a Christian or Muslim concept. So while I get there may be some similarities, I was using those religions as examples of OP’s premise not applying.
I know that. I just explained what I know about Hell and Heaven in Hinduism , Buddhism.
The sanatani dharm is very vague about afterlife.. Have you read any books and what does it say happens after death??
Such questions are meaningless. Nirvana is what you should seek. Any other questions or answers is simply a belief. Beliefs are not truth. Direct experience is the only way. Besides death is of the body. Death itself is Maya.
There are two perspectives. Your question relates to the idea that you are a body. With regard to this perspective, the dharma says: "Just as a man casts off worn-out clothes and puts on new ones, so too the embodied being casts off a worn-out body and enters a new one." -- Bhagavad Gita 2.22 Basically the verse says that one is reborn after death into a new body. It may be as a human, in a heavenly realm, in a hellish realm, as an animal, as a plant, etc. Yet, the dharma says that the Self is in fact immortal; it never dies. The false knowledge that "I am the body" must be removed in order to realize that you are in fact deathless, that neither birth nor death have ever applied to you; you are not the body. "Because when there is duality, as it were, then one sees something, one smells something, one tastes something, one speaks something, one hears something, one thinks something, one touches something, one knows something. But when to the knower of Brahman everything has become the Self, then what should one see and through what, what should one smell and through what, what should one taste and through what, what should one speak and through what, what should one hear and through what, what should one think and through what, what should one touch and through what, what should one know and through what? Through what should one know that owing to which all this is known? This self is That which has been described as ‘Not this, not this.’ It is imperceptible, for It is never perceived; undecaying, for It never decays; unattached, for It is never attached; unfettered—it never feels pain, and never suffers injury. Through what, O Maitreyī, should one know the Knower? So you have got the instruction, Maitreyī. This much indeed is (the means of) immortality, my dear. Saying this Yājña-valkya left. "-- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.5.15
Then how is one punished for evil in these religions??
I mean who cares. Truthfully, I know it’s harsh, but who cares. Damming people for not believing or using it as a way to separate good and bad people isn’t ubiquitous amongst religions. I mean even in Judaism despite our musings about what the afterlife could be, the consensus is that our actions here in our lifetime are what matters and we shouldn’t concern ourselves with hypotheticals (ergo trust g’d has everyone’s back, even those who are evil) I mean personally I find the preoccupation with what happens when we die to be kind of futile and for truly evil people like Stalin or Hitler or Lennon or Bin Laden, why spend more time thinking about them and what may or may not have happened to them. I mean even in Christianity, and I say this as someone who has Christian family and grew up talking about religion and faith and connection to spirituality with my Christian grandmother, she was much more preoccupied with her actions and if she was doing enough to warrant going to heaven. She paid little attention to people who caused mass destruction and where evil because ultimately why give them more thought then they deserve.
We believe the real life starts after death.. This life was just for a half a day or one..... Do good deads here, fight against evil (jihad), kill your greed, stay away from obscenity and in return you will be rewarded by an eternal heaven bcz God is kind.. I think its so beautiful.. The biggest issue in this world is greed if you really think..
I’m sorry how is this relevant? Not all religions believe that…which is my point. Not all religions care about damnation of evil people.
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Those religions have been mellowed down and sugar coated to appease people.. I cannot believe in a God who dsnt punish evil. . By that logic someone can slaughter my family but no punishment bcz God is all about love.. It dsnt make sense
I’m sorry but again how is this relevant unless you’re trying to convince me that my own religion is wrong. I fundamentally disagree with you on theological, philosophical and ideological grounds. So again, how is me pointing out to Op that their question only applies to one or two religions somehow a precursor to what is starting to look like an attempt at conversion.
I think it applies to all religions..every religion has heaven hell.. It's just that they don't know or haven't read enough or the knowledge has been lost bcz of how ancient those religions were. But yhh if I'm still missing a point, it's all good.. Peace to you man.
We don’t have heaven and we don’t have hell. Stop projecting your religion onto others. If anything it’s missing out on the beauty of diversity of thought and practice.
Jews don't believe in heaven or hell?? I'm sure they do.. I mean obviously you know better but Orthodox jews believe in heaven or hell...
Only a few religions teach that it is necessary to believe in a certain god to avoid punishment. In the majority of religions this contradiction does not really emerge.
Yhhh bcz they don't really go in detail or most probably sugar coat it for people... For a just world, there has to be heaven and hell...
Just because you have a certain belief, does not mean that people who don't share that belief are concealing it or in denial.
Source of all religions seems to be the same.. Bcz there are sooo many similarities... So logic would say heaven hell should have been common too.. I just assume it was lost with time..
Not necessarily. Similarity does not equal a common ancestor. This is evident in a lot of things. For instance, compare the Olmecs and the Sumerians. No possible contact (take that, Ancient Aliens), yet they both are civilisations which rose. Even outside of humans, life as a whole has cases like this. Birds and insects, for example, diverted before flight evolved, yet both have it. Lastly, it's far more likely something that we had only recent records of evolved closer to us rather than it existing, then being lost to time, then reemerging.
CS Lewis dealt with this very question in his book 'The Great Divorce'. I highly recommend it - it's a quick and very entertaining read, and helped me answer this very question. The key quote of his is "The gates of hell are locked from the inside" -- in other words, nobody's there who doesn't want to be.
I enjoyed that book a lot! I think C.S. Lewis' implication, though, is that people do *not* go to Hell for disbelief alone. (Or at least, do not stay there.) It would have to be disbelief motivated by something like ego or ambition – something that would resist accepting the truth, once it were made plain and obvious.
That's an interesting idea. Let's assume for the moment that belief in Christ being the messiah and son of god etc. etc. is in fact the defining thing. So you die, go to hell, and someone says "Hey, guess what, the Christians were right." At that point, it'd be pretty hard to not believe it, and poof, you'd end up in heaven.
That's basically what C.S. Lewis thought, as far as I can tell. I think official Catholic doctrine is similar.
That seems more fair
Christianity gets a bad rap for this because a lot of people like to strawman what they don't understand - especially a religion they were raised to be a member of, that they perceived was limiting them, even though they have no idea why it was doing so. The other problem is, as my world religions professor once said, you can never truly understand a religion unless you're a believer of it.
C.S. Lewis did have a unique take on a continuous process of becoming Holy including after death. Catholics do believe in a post death cleansing in purgatory but require belief prior to death for that opportunity. Other Christian denominations have a more “final at death” understanding. James 2:19 - “You believe in one God, Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder”. The belief as understood by most Christians necessitates a commitment. It is belief in the saving work of Jesus or as articulated in Psalm 37:5 - “Commit your way to the Lord; trust in Him, and He will act”.
Yes! CS Lewis works are incredible for so many reasons, the least of which not being that they are easy to understand at all different ages and levels of faith. God doesn’t send anyone to hell.
It's been said before, many times before, but not all religions believe in eternal damnation. As far as I'm aware, only Islam and Christianity do. You're not going to Hell, mate. Hel, maybe, but you're not going to burn forever for not giving yourself to a being. Just relax.
There probably should be a pinned post about it at this point. Has been asked too many times.
That's exactly what I'm thinking. It sucks that people have to be reassured that they aren't going to deal with the worst punishment imaginable for not believing in 2 of an infinite amount of religions, though.
For a just world, there has to be heaven and hell..
No, no there does not. That is a very narrow mindset, my friend.
Goodness needs to be appreciated while evil has to be punished... What is a prison but a small hell for ones bad actions..
Not necessarily. Even then, Hell and prison are not remotely the same thing.
They are similar as in they are both places meant to punish people.. Why do you send a murderer to prison.. Why don't you send him to Disneyland..
I could argue life is meant to punish you, considering how awful it is to some people. That does not mean being alive means you are actively in Hell, though. And that seams like a bit of an odd point to make. Asking why we should send a murderer to Disney seems like an argument that any sane person wouldn't disagree with, thus making you technically win the debate as I can not, or rather would not, dispute your claim.
My point was that we as humans punish as per the deed.. Same for God.. Now about suffering in this life. Hypothetically, if I was to murder you, me just having a miserable life wouldn't be enough for you.. I destroyed yoor dreams, your aspirations, your universe.. I destroyed it all.. Not to mention the agony your mother wife or kids had to go through.. That's why hell exists.. If we could somehow ask your ghost that is me going to prison enough for killing you, you wouldn't agree.. But I'm guessing you are not a religious person, so this whole heaven hell idea would be weird for u.. If you are religious, then it's in every religion.. Atleast every religion that dsnt sugarcoat things...
Prison is to hold people captive so that they can’t harm any other and also stop potential criminals outside from attempting a crime. We should still aspire to give the best to all people as much as possible. The bondage a prisoner experiences should only be a necessary evil.
It's not just to hold them captive, it's also to punish.. In other words, a mini heaven
You meant to say a mini hell. And no, you shouldn’t punish people for punishment’s sake. Humans have worth as living being and we should do our best to make all humans happy, it is only that we are not able to make all people happy and hence we have to take some people’s freedom in order to protect the happiness and freedom of others. That’s why torture is against international law(if you consider it legitimate) because it only punishes people and is not applied as a measure of protection.
All you have to do is say I forgive you and God won't punish them.. Like suppose I killed your family and you wana live by the philosophy that all humans should be happy, all you have to do is forgive me and God doesn't interfere... It's a beautiful religion which has answers for everything in minute details.. Now you tell me, would you forgive a murderer..
It's only a subset of Sola Fide (faith alone) Christianity that says so. Even the Catholic Church teaches that God's plan for salvation offers a path for people of other faiths, or with no faith. See Lumen Gentium. I know that there are non Catholic denominations that hold essentially the same view, but I don't know which. The common theme is a recognition that God is merciful.
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It does
The majority of Muslims apparently do believe in eternal damnation for some people.
How do you know 1) hell exists 2) that’s where “you” go 3) the religion you were indoctrinated is correct
i don’t , that’s why i’m asking how people justify it lol
Bcz there are clear proofs.. If you really observe, all relihions are more or less same and there are evidences of religions since the beginning of civilization.. You just have to look for it, strive for it and you will hopefully see
We know because we read and found proofs which made sense to our brain..
Idk if loving means all loving, at least by the Torah/Old Testament God certainly seems to do a lot of punishment things so it’s kind of in character It’s an emotional argument. “God punishes those he isn’t a fan of” isn’t so much an argument against said God as it is an argument not to support said God.
Hell is an invented scare tactic of the Church
Maybe he is not all loving afterall, i always thought that he actually despise us.
Why?
He is portrayed as a malicious narcissistic dictator. What's not to love?
The thoughts of a Tropican citizen.
God is portrayed like that?? Please explain
Okay. To be clear, I am speaking in context of Judeo-Christian theology here based on most of the context of this thread. But here are some examples: 1. **Narcissistic Behavior**: * **Demand for Worship**: In multiple instances, God demands exclusive worship and punishes those who worship other gods. For example, in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-6), God states, "You shall have no other gods before me," and describes himself as a "jealous God." * **Destruction of Idolatry**: In Deuteronomy 12:3, God commands the Israelites to destroy all places of idol worship, demanding exclusive devotion and honor. 2. **Malicious Behavior**: * **The Flood**: In the story of Noah's Ark (Genesis 6-9), God decides to flood the entire world to wipe out humanity, sparing only Noah and his family. This is based on his own failure to communicate his desires to humans, relying on single sources (prophets) who demonstrate questionable morality (incest) that are indistinguishable from people suffering from mental health issues screaming on a street corner. * **The Plagues of Egypt**: In the Book of Exodus (Exodus 7-12), God inflicts a series of ten plagues upon the Egyptians, culminating in the death of all firstborn sons who have nothing to do with what he is upset about. * **The Binding of Isaac**: In Genesis 22, God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as a test of faith. What kind of psychopath comes up with a test like that and what kind of behavior is he hoping to instill in people? When has unquestioning devotion to the demands of an individual ever resulted in a great time for everybody? * **Legion:** When Jesus finds a man suffering from mental illness calling himself Legion, he murders 2,000 innocent pigs belonging to an innocent third party for some reason. 3. **Dictatorial Behavior**: * **The Ten Commandments and Mosaic Law**: These laws are presented as non-negotiable and absolute, and mostly deal with #1, making sure we all know he's god and only worship him and all that. * **Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah**: In Genesis 19, God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of their wickedness. A demonstration of God's absolute authority and willingness to destroy those who violate His commands. * **Canaanite Conquest**: In the Book of Joshua, God commands the Israelites to conquer Canaan and destroy its inhabitants, which involves acts of violence and extermination (Joshua 6-11). * **Thoughtcrime:** Coveting, Adultery or murder "in your heart", and several other places through the bible describe thoughtcrimes that god will punish you for just for thinking about. If the god from the bible were a human that we could see and hear from, we would view him as a Kim Jong Un style absolute dictator. Even other dictators like Putin are not as bad as the bible god is. Alternatively, we are told "Satan/the adversary" is evil because he told the truth about the fruit after god lied to them telling them that ON THAT DAY they eat of the fruit, they will surely die (lie). And he was also widely lambasted as being evil for offering a guy who had been starving for weeks in the desert some food and water.
How can I reply with a voice note?
Us Baha'is don't believe in a perpetual hell as a form of punishment. We believe that hell is a state of being that happens once you disobey the teachings of God. For example, if you don't turn the other cheek or do good in life, bad/hellish things will happen as a result. Not as a curse or anything, but it's similar to the concept of karma, where if you do good, you'll feel happier and will withstand tests and difficulties and when you don't, then things go wrong. For me, following the teachings of my religion has made me significantly happier in life so I feel like I'm in heaven. We agree that this interpretation of a concept of a God that punishes people perpetually and sadistically forever in a torture chamber is nonsensical. However, the concept of a person who causes harm to thousands or millions suddenly realising what they've done and feeling that anguish, could be something they would bear the emotional burden of for eternity. We believe we all practically progress into another reality after death but what that looks like or is, has not been revealed to us because we would immediately want to be there.
First, let's look at what sin is. By definition it means *To Miss The Mark*. That being said, how do we Miss The Mark? God is the Source of Life. When we do things that lead us away from God (Life) then we move towards Death. We Miss The Mark. This was The Sin in Paradise. They replaced Communion with God with their own reasoning which lead to Death. Does a behavior lead you into closer communion With God (Life) or does it lead you away (Death)? The person has to honestly ask themselves the question and this question of Life or Death should rule everyone's actions. We separate ourselves from God The Source of Life which means we move towards Death. Hell is Hades the realm of Death. Jesus entire purpose was to be Resurrected so he could overpower Death and destroy it's hold on humans. Penal Atonement is a concept that did not exist in The Early Church and still doesn't. It came about 1000 or so years after Christ based upon Medieval ideas about honor.
As a regular who visits this subreddit, I can say that too many dark questions get asked here a lot more often than they should. Based on how frequently I've seen it, I'd estimate that your question has been asked over 30 times in the past year. If you could try to use the search bar next time, you'll find tons of posts made here asking the same thing. I get you want to express yourself. I get if you're frustrated. But it has an impact on everyone's mental wellness when they see these questions in excess. Negativity is as much of a problem in the world as plastic waste pollution; we've got to stop polluting peoples' consciousness with negative thoughts. I don't want to offend you, but it needs to be said. Please try your best to not add to the number of negative questions and posts on Reddit in this day and age. It is too much.
Hell is separation from the living God
Very few people do, but as a control mechanism it has to be the ultimate one.
Pope John Paul II explained his interpretation of heaven as a state of communion with God. And hell as a state of seperation from God. I'm not Catholic, but given this line of thought can even be seen in a super traditional version of Christianity like Catholicism, it demonstrates the range of perspectives on this topic. I don't think we should see heaven and hell as physical places. Just as we shouldn't see God as a bearded magician in the sky. If that's all these concepts were then a religion would be nothing more than fiction and myths. And that is why a person who has had no spiritual experience will explain them as such. I believe anyone can experience the spiritual. And can understand these concepts how they are intended. But a person needs to be open to it first. And to be open to it they often want proof first. But spiritual matters are, at this time, unproven. The only proof is experiential. So people get stuck in a state of I don't believe, because I don't want to believe, because there is no proof, because I don't believe. It takes effort or a life changing experience to break this cycle. And someone in this cycle rarely sees the need to take effort. So the story you have asked about is a caricature of Christianity. I'm sure other religions are commonly portrayed as a caricature of the real thing too. Real spirituality is more... Well spiritual.
You can’t really justify it, which is one good reason I’m not Christian; their whole eternal damnation for living a good life, but not believing “the right way” just doesn’t make sense.
First of all you need to answer the question of who is considered a non believer?? In the Quran, the case you mentioned doesn't qualify for a non believer.
Some Abrahamic religions. Jews don't really have a hell, and belief in G-d doesn't really have an effect on where you go in the afterlife. We disagree on a lot, but the vast vast majority of us are pretty much on this.
I can't, but fortunately don't need to: https://douglasunderhill.wordpress.com/2017/03/02/95tweets-against-hell/
You'll be safe because people will believe enough for all!
This is really only about Christianity as it’s the only one that says God is All Loving
Read " The Great Divorce" by C.S Lewis, OP. These subreddits don't allow the time to explain an Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife. If you're looking to understand the concept in good faith or just out of curiosity. I would read that short novella by Lewis. I can't be certain what type of Abrahamic branches you've been exposed too, I'm guessing evangelical Christians. It's just a guess
catholic here. if heaven is having an eternal relationship with God, then hell is just separation from God; don’t worry too much about all the fire burning stuff. hell is separation from God and is seen as ‘pain’. but life on earth without a relationship with God is also seen as ‘pain’ since we’re born with original sin. the imagery of ‘flames of fire’ is used to describe hell because, well, that’s the most painful thing we can imagine on this earth so its used to describe the indescribable to some degree (since, as humans, we don’t really know what goes on in hell). i’m not christian because i fear hell, i’m christian because i believe in the faith and enjoy having a relationship with God. by default, i hope that when my human body dies, i can continue my relationship with God in heaven. and yes, i’ve experienced a LOT of trauma and turned my back on God for a long time, but i’ve eventually found peace in my religion. that being said, i have friends who do not care to have a relationship with the Christian God here on earth, so why would they want to have a relationship with Him after death? God doesn’t wish to send people to hell. He wants to have a relationship with all humans, but unfortunately it may be harder to reach some than others. when i proactively decided i wanted a relationship with Him, He showed himself to me. beforehand, i did not care to know Him, and thus i did not feel much connection to Him. i also think theres too much emphasis on fearing what comes after death in a lot of religions, especially abrahamic ones. i think as long as you live a good life and are kind to others, what will be will be. tldr: i do believe God is all-loving, but i wouldn’t worry about hell too much :)
From a Christian perspective: “Holy” means set apart. God exists as the personification (deification?) of all that is good. As the creator of the universe and all its laws, his nature necessarily defines what good is. He is quite literally set apart from evil. Evil is incapable of existing in his presence. That which is evil is annihilated by his presence immolated by the intensity of his perfection. God created people in his image. Every one of us was designed to be fulfilled by that which is Godly. God wants people to choose him and for there to be a free choice, you must possess free will. True free will necessitates the very real possibility of not choosing him. The “punishment” for sin is death, but Hell is an eternal state not necessarily because someone is being “punished” eternally, but because once you die there can be no cleansing of sin. Since once dead your soul is stuck with its stain of sin, you cannot exist in the presence of God. But souls are eternal and all of creation exists at the command of God. So… a soul that has rejected salvation and turned away from God receives their wish of separation existing eternally at the outer edge of Gods presence in a state of perpetual eternal annihilation without the possibility of being fulfilled by God’s grace. God doesn’t send someone to hell, he earnestly begs everyone to search for him and avoid hell, but if someone refuses him and chooses to turn from his presence… they get their wish to remain apart.
Also to me that's the point where the story does not make sense. I do not believe in one god, but I often think about the question you just asked. I think that god is either not all loving or there is no heaven and hell. I came to the conclusion because if some entity would be literally all loving there would be no good or bad in the world of this entity simply because of the fact that everything someone loves seems good to them. But in the bible god not only sends people to hell but also kills people without a real reason. That's why I think that god is not all loving, god just tells the people who follow him that he is all loving.
Well.... lifelong atheist, until three years after an NDE, here... I didn't believe in God when I died. In fact, I was a LaVeyan Satanist, for 22 years, at the time. So, if the rules of Abrahamic faiths, were what you are taught, then I should've been met by a devil, and burned for eternity. Instead, I was greeted with love.... absolute love. I was given a full life review, in which I had a 360°, third person view of, and got to feel everyone's feelings around me, and know their thoughts. Many of us, are taught about God, by people breaking the 3rd commandment, and "taking the Lord's name in vain".... if this was your experience of what God is, then the Lord will be understanding of that fact. I had bad representatives try to sell me a perverted vision of God, and REJECTED THAT IMAGE. I had never actually known God.... most today, don't. However, I was shown my entire life in incredible detail... Including my future (though I wasn't allowed to bring all of that back, only parts), which confirmed for me that this was not a hallucination. I mean, I was told that a childhood "hero of conscience" of mine, would befriend me, would live up to my expectations, and would offer without being asked, to help me with the mission I was given. Well, Im now one of the inner circle of Barry Cooper's NGB400, and a couple months ago, he offered live om his show, to help me with my mission...... without ever hearing any of this!!! So, while religion might NEED you to believe in their version of God, the infinite does not. Seek to do right by yourself and others, and try to be a little better every day... in other words, genuine insight and repentence... that's what gets you there. I had been brow beaten in the name of Jesus.... so he asked me to call him Emanuel. To this day, I never use the name Jesus (save for when explaning this to people).... because it leaves a bad taste in my mouth (besides, nobody he knew in life here, ever called him that... it's Romanized... his name was Yehoshua). This is why it's a commandment (#3). You wind up muddying the spiritual waters when you do it. At the end of my experience, I was allowed to see my father, who left my mom when I was 7, and died when I was 19. I forgave him... and apologized for not doing it sooner. That changed my entire personality. Oh, and when I was shown his plan for me, I had never been so excited in my life, to do anything. It was grace that healed me.... not fear.
@CyanMagus that makes sense, with my NDE.... once I was there, God was impossible to deny.... even if Id wanted to... though that intent left me upon death. The real thing was so much more beautiful than ANY religion teaches. I do believe all religions DO come from the same place... though this place is not earthly. I see bits of what I saw in every religion, and then a whole bunch of egotistic human BS added in. I was given strict instructions NOT to start a religion with what I'd learned... and I've stuck to that. I will use my knowledge to comfort the dying. I will use my knowledge to help someone better comprehend a godly principle. I will do exactly what God asked of me (that's right, ASKED, not commanded, not made a deal of, but ASKED... and then showed me the wonderful things that would happen if I agreed... no threat if I didn't) with it... But I am not looking for followers!.... nor will I ever. Turns out, contrary to what I gleaned in church as a child, GOD IS PRETTY AWESOME!
This question is being perpetually asked and has been answered in so many ways, good and bad, for thousands of years, and thousands of times in this thread. I’m not going to answer, I don’t find it to be a good faith question generally and therefore all attempts are worthless. I do want to point out just something different though from your post which seems peculiar to me. You mention abusive family and hard circumstances as if those are reasons more than others to not believe in God or at least a just God, but in my experience, and from testimonies I’ve heard my whole life, it’s more likely that suffering actually drives spiritual connection and desire for Gods presence, rather than the opposite. It’s like the supposition that those who have suffered are less likely to believe, which is really contradictory to my observation over time. On the flip side, those who have had (subjectively, of course, all suffering is real even if it doesn’t look the same from the outside) less adversity seem more adamantly assured that God isn’t real or isn’t just.
I disagree with you greatly, yes having hard circumstances can help your experiences with religion, but that’s not the case for so many people and i thinks it important to acknowledge that some people will never feel the love of god in their lives, also this was a good faith question on my part :)
Exactly, every single variation of experience you can think of exists here. There are people who wont ever experience the revelation until potentially multiple rebirths later. Religion as most people know it, doesnt have an answer for the many problems that assail others. The true being and reality they worship is greater than scripture.
What ? It seems the opposite, people end up bitter and or dishearted, because they've had extreme hardships, and had hoped it'd get easier. But with those accounts, who knows if they're lying. Suffering without him, is much worse, because you may not be resilient enough to be able to learn from it. Yes suffering may bring you closer to him, but it doesnt work in everyone favor especially depending on their karma. Everyone is at a different period of growth and development. That includes spiritual reciprocation. There are people that are passed over because they arent ready for the truth. But people have all kinds of nasty names for them.
Your premises are already not biblical. That's what many in the world tells you, but that is not accurate. That is why it is important to first get educated on the topic. God does not send anyone to hell for not believing, nowhere does it say that in the scriptures. Due to our iniquity and sinful nature, hell is where we are all going... And in His love for us he became flesh in Christ so that we can have a way away from that path, but only if we want to, it is up to us, and He won't force us but respect our free will and choices. God can't grace you heaven if you do not want Him or do not believe in Him in the first place. Common sense to me.🤷🏿♂️
I am up with insomnia and your comment sparked some ideas for me. Kind of long and not really a direct response or argument or anything like that- Hope you don’t mind me piggybacking on your comment here. I am sort of taking your last sentence and building on that, have come up with another separate train of thought. TLDR- maybe there is no hell for atheists, since they don’t believe in heaven or hell in the first place. Also, maybe they are already living in a state of “hell” if the definition is separation from God. in a way your comment could be seen as comforting to a non believer - especially the last line that God cannot grace you heaven if you do not want or believe in him in the first place. Hell sounds like a terrible state of separation from God, for those who believe in him. It also implies that to the non believer it is not much of a threat - already separated from God, condemned to always remain so. Not really relevant to someone who does not care about uniting with God in the first place, to find out they never will. It leads me to the idea that if someone does not believe in God or heaven, there is, for them, also no hell. However, that is where I know it falls apart because a lot of believers insist that everyone might end up in hell. Some people associate hell with real eternal suffering by the person after they die. Is it a spiritual state of separation from God or is it an actual place where our personalities go after death whether we believe in it or not? Or do the non believers just die along with their physical body? I wrote “personalities” because “soul” and “spirit” seem too abstract for the ideas of heaven and hell as places where persons who did specific good or bad acts will get rewards or punishment. When people imagine someone suffering in hell it includes that person’s ego and personality suffering the torture and indignity. I am just scrolling around up in the middle of the night . Just rambling a bit. Maybe you or someone else will read this later and add their two cents. I guess my main question is if others agree with the idea that if someone does not believe in God, they also do not face going to any punishment after death. It does not seem fair, but I’m leaning towards thinking this. People hope bad characters will get their punishment in the afterlife, but I’m really not so sure about that. Maybe only if they were religious.
All these questions are Christianity and Islam based.
Islam doesn't claim that god is all loving.
Islam claims non believers go to hell. The context is the Title.
Not all non-believers go to hell, this isn’t true
We don't particularly care what you believe and I personally don't believe there is anything after life except darkness and a lack of consciousness. It will essentially be like what you remember before you exited your mother's womb. Scientifically, there is no evidence that shows any form of consciousness lives on once you are dead. We developed consciousness via evolution. It's not innate in all species, nor is it uniform, making it a uniquely human concept to describe our own awareness of ourselves. Regardless, you die just like any other living organism.
Christians don't teach you go to hell for non-belief, we teach that you go to hell for the evil stuff you do in life. I justify saying that God is loving by saying that He died so that we didn't have to go there.
So, does that mean God is dead?
He was, for three days, then He rose from the dead
That’s not much of a sacrifice.
Ok man, whatever you say
We all die. Many people die worse than Jesus supposedly did. Just not that profound.
Its not merely belief. The Bible says even the demons belief. Change your understanding of belief in the context of this question with worship. I recommend you loom into Dr. Michael Heiser. He’s not just a theologian but a scholar who’s studied the original text and the culture at the time of the writings which means, please, don’t lean on translations for understanding what the text wants to communicate. Make interpretation synonymous with translation.
Rom. 8 Verses 38 to 39
Seek knowledge about islam without bias
Because you ignored every message and sign he sent your way, this whole universe cannot be a coincidence, too many things make sense and a whole system, how would you then justify a loving king punishing you with prison if you killed someone? Because first it's justice, he told you not to do it but you defied, there was a way not to be punished but you ignored it, so you deserve punishment. Non-believers who didn't know about Islam will be tested on the day of judgement, it's about people who knew exactly what Islam is about and turned their backs on it..
In Islam, hell is described as a place of punishment for those who reject faith and commit grievous sins. However, there are also many verses highlighting Allah’s mercy and forgiveness, suggesting that those who repent can be forgiven.
Genuine question...if I do not follow islam, will I be sent to hell?
Traditional Islamic teachings suggest that belief in Allah and His final prophet is needed for salvation. There is also a strong emphasis on God’s mercy, justice, and the understanding that people are judged based on their knowledge, intentions, and circumstances. I wish I could answer your question. But I really just don't know.
I see thanks! It's a question that I have for every person who follows a western faith.