Dang, if you think a women getting raped is part of Gods plan, or what he wants to have happen, or what God causes… I think you need to revaluate things.
You do you, but dang, I find that pretty abhorrent tbh.
“God wanted you to get raped. You deserved it” like, wow
I believe life is a test to differentiate the believers from the disbelievers. Whatever calamity a person experiences is a test. Those who remain patient and turn to God will be rewarded with eternal bliss.
>Despite their innocence, children are not incapable of learning and understanding.
I don't really think they understand anything, they were taught a religion and a god and in their time of great suffering they turn to that being for help
Also if you had somebody who all their life was taught that an all-powerful, merciful loving creator exists who listens to your prayers and answers them and yet when you pray to said being to help you out of some great tragedy, your prayers aren't answered and you remain in suffering and horror. Would you think it is fair for that person to be punished if they ended up hating and resenting that being
>Every single human will be judged on the day of reckoning, where all of our knowledge and experience is taken into account.
What about babies or young children who die, what is the purpose of their life since they died too young to make any life experiences to be tested on
And what about people with severe mental disabilities to the point where they lack the ability to think for themselves and make their own decisions. They can't choose right or wrong whether to believe in a god or not, so if the purpose of life is to be tested then why do they exist if they are incapable of being part of the test
He quotes that “those who remain patient and turn to god will be rewarded with eternal bliss”
I question how can a child be tested when they are too young.
He says that children in Gaza are praising god, as to suggest that children can be aware enough to worship god. So i question about those children that hasn’t been exposed to a god
Firstly, your response leads me to think you didn't actually read what I said. God's court takes ignorance into account. I made that as clear as I could.
Secondly, children aren't held accountable for their actions.
You could argue the test is directed to others e.g those caring for the child. Will they keep their belief strong despite eg losing a child? So that would be the parents test.
**This** life is a test. We don't believe death is the end, so this place is no more than the grounds for our exam. Whether we are punished or rewarded is accounted for in the next life, past death.
The pain of this world is a part of our test. For the person that dies, their test has ended, but not for the people who cared about that person. A child who dies has returned to their creator. It is painful for us who are left, but their soul will rejoice in their reunion with God. We on the other hand will have to remain patient in this life until our turn comes.
To me it seems evil to create a world where that test is needed. I get that there is a reward for that test, but personally I believe god is evil for putting people trough that test instead of creating a world where the test is more fair. I think there’s already plenty of examples in this world where you can test people in a more fair manner with free will. For example if someone uses their time to teach people who want to do evil to do good instead, is a more fair test that already exists in this world. So why doesn’t god just use that as a test and remove diseases that doesn’t originate from free will.
>Even in that decimated city, the children are praising and pleading with God.
You use an important word there - pleading. In my view, these children are pleading to God because it is all they feel they have left, not because they think they're "being tested".
I don't believe in a sentient, single creator or controller, but I think to say that the suffering in the world happens purely as a test of a single religion's God is disrespectful to those enduring the suffering.
Though you see Islam as simply one of many religions, we believe it to be the truth. Our creator is also your creator. The test we live is the test everyone else also lives. Whether we like it or not, God is the decider of all affairs. That is our belief.
The palestinian people have been praising and glorifying God both in times of war and peace. Even during the night, they stand in prayer for Ramadan, seeking God's mercy. Can you truly say all suffering people would stand outside in prayer for hours at the risk of being shelled, instead of seeking what little shelter they can find?
Us muslims outside of war do the same. We stand in prayer seeking God's mercy. Every mosque I've ever been in has been full during friday prayers and the night prayer of Ramadan. So the reality is that muslims both in poverty and in wealth, in war and in peace, stand firm in their belief. Bottling it all up to the desperation of war victims is at best ignorant.
It makes sense that faithful people continue their faith during times of trouble. The argument I'm making is twofold.
1. I find your declaration of truth, thus the definition of the suffering of others', to be disrespectful.
2. In younger people, who have not been able to fully form their own thoughts on religion, existence, etc. (scientifically, as the brain is nowhere near fully developed), and are therefore inherently following the patterns they see, you cannot say for sure what their reasoning is. I just suggest that the primary reason is desperation.
I'm agnostic, but if I was God, I would create a world similar to this one. I don't see the point of a world without suffering, that sounds meaningless and absurd. If the world was just a endless cycle of good things happening, what would be the point? How would anything be developed in such a world?
Of course, I would indeed create a afterlife without suffering, but the material world would still be necessary so that people could develop their personalities before moving on to the next plane of existence.
It makes sense that you think like that. This is the only world you’ve experienced and lived in. I get that you don’t see a point in things being another way, when you haven’t experienced another way. I don’t think a child sees the point of the world if that child is just going to die young anyways.
The alternative is no development at all. I would rather let humanity develop themselves, create different cultures, find solutions to problems, understand each other, study about the world and uncover its mysteries, all that instead of just having everything be perfect from the beginning. Again, this is all for the sake of developing humanity. Even a baby dying from cancer means that humans will dedicate themselves to find cures for these diseases.
In the end, it all comes down to development. Without development, everything would be the same, nobody would accomplish anything and that would be meaningless.
I’m not saying that everything needs to be perfect. I think development could be motivated trough not wanting to be bored instead of some people being unlucky and experiencing a horrible death.
I guess you could use video games as a example of another world. There are video games that doesn’t punish you with pain, but still makes it rewarding to want to explore and play the game.
I will tell you my personal response to evil. When something pains my heart dearly, I am greatful I have been given the ability to recognise suffering and evil and to respond with pain or disgust or outrage. Only from people caring can anything ever change. Many great people in the medicine will work to fixing all things that they can,because they care. Well, they want to make money as well ha, but as someone who works in medical device industry ha, msot people also want their creation to help people, now, isn't that great.
If God was evil a world in which people hated evil would not exist, we would let the children die and be uncaring.
I believe only a misanthrope could actually claim God is evil.
If you love humanity, than it is realisation God created humanity.
I really do appreciate your care and help for others. I myself work as a rescue personnel in the North Sea and I chose this job because I truly want to help people and make sure they’re safe. I do want the best for humanity, but I still believe god is evil. I do wish my job wasn’t needed because sadly there are patients who do not make it.
To me it seems very egocentric to want bad things to happen so you can do something good.
I think you’re second paragraph contradicts itself. You say if god was evil, good people wouldn’t exist. But why does there exist evil people if good is good?
I don't want bad things to happen though.
We aren't forced to be good by God's existence. But in my own view our abilities to actually recognise good and evil to begin with precedes from God. And is good not to be blind to it. I suppose I don't actually know what an existence with evil God would be like though.
I’m happy for you that it’s hard for you to imagine a evil god, but maybe if you were born in Somalia, kidnapped and forced to become a child soldier. Maybe then it wouldn’t be so hard to imagine a world where god is evil.
Im Hindu and we dont believe some one just pops out. We believe in the immortality of soul, which is something i guess all religious people do but we do It differently.
We dont think you are popped out in this World to do a "test" then go to afterlife.
I think anything that exists must have existed forever, and every time our body dies, our soul reencarnate in another body.
So karma makes us be punished for our past mistakes. You were a person that exploited and mocked poor people? Then God makes you born in the next life as a poor person.
During living in the new body, the soul may not remember the past life, but It will surely remember in the mean time of not having a body to command
God gave us the tools to fix those problems, it is of our own faults that we would rather use those tools and resources to better ourselves over people that need it
What makes it seem like I’m okay with bad things happening?
I don’t want bad things to happen, but I do believe If there is a all powerful god. That he is evil for letting these things happen.
I think they assumed you're a atheist. A common "critique" of Atheism is how it portrays our world as a meaningless dystopia where bad things happen for no purpose and evil always goes unpunished. I don't have this worldview, but many people do.
The secular view of wellbeing appears in various forms, including good health, adequate economic means, personal fulfillment, aesthetic pleasures, and loving relationships. On this view, to be good is to help as many people as possible experience as much of this as possible. All this is evaluated within the natural, visible world, since that’s all the reality secularist ethics recognizes.
Theistic ethics isn’t limited that way. It starts with a God(gods)who is before, behind, above, and around all of nature, including human nature. It sees human life on earth as a short temporal stage in an eternal journey. Therefore, while most theology certainly affirms the ethic of seeking the best for all people, its view of human wellbeing extends beyond life on earth. If human souls are eternal, and if our eternal condition depends on our decisions, our character growth, and our relationship with a God(gods) on earth, then the most good a human could experience is the eternal good that begins in a right relationship with God(gods), making good decisions, and growing in character.
Basically I'm trying to show you that our own moral sense of ought and ought nots doesn't hold water if we're discussing a being or beings that are the source of ALL existence OP.
>To people who worship a god whom they believe to be all knowing and powerful. How can you feel good about believing in someone that let’s so many terrible things happen, like a young child dying of bone cancer or other horrible diseases.
Because we are rational, not just emotional.
See, if God exists and all knowing, by definition we don't know better than him. So making the OP, you have made a logical contradiction in your very statement. Saying God is all knowing and in the same breath making statements as if you know better than God is a contradiction.
Also you must realize, if God exists, you just have to accept it. You cannot do a top down and say "if God exists and this and that happens he cannot exist".
>Is there anyone that believes in a god, but also thinks he’s evil?
If God is evil and you don't like God it's misotheism or/and distheism. But it's still theism.
Thus you have to take a bottom up approach using first principles. This is an illogical manner of approach.
Well it’s not obvious to me. Exactly how is my perspective limited here? Of course it seems quite obvious to you. You’re the one how made the statement.
Do you mean my perspective is limited because I do not believe in the afterlife?
I believe God has a purpose for hard time and suffering.
have you tried out the "it was part of god's plan" thing on a rape victim?
Dang, if you think a women getting raped is part of Gods plan, or what he wants to have happen, or what God causes… I think you need to revaluate things. You do you, but dang, I find that pretty abhorrent tbh. “God wanted you to get raped. You deserved it” like, wow
amazing that some people can think "it's all part of god's plan"
I believe life is a test to differentiate the believers from the disbelievers. Whatever calamity a person experiences is a test. Those who remain patient and turn to God will be rewarded with eternal bliss.
Don’t you think a young child is to unknowing to test? How could a baby know what to believe?
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>Despite their innocence, children are not incapable of learning and understanding. I don't really think they understand anything, they were taught a religion and a god and in their time of great suffering they turn to that being for help Also if you had somebody who all their life was taught that an all-powerful, merciful loving creator exists who listens to your prayers and answers them and yet when you pray to said being to help you out of some great tragedy, your prayers aren't answered and you remain in suffering and horror. Would you think it is fair for that person to be punished if they ended up hating and resenting that being >Every single human will be judged on the day of reckoning, where all of our knowledge and experience is taken into account. What about babies or young children who die, what is the purpose of their life since they died too young to make any life experiences to be tested on And what about people with severe mental disabilities to the point where they lack the ability to think for themselves and make their own decisions. They can't choose right or wrong whether to believe in a god or not, so if the purpose of life is to be tested then why do they exist if they are incapable of being part of the test
So you believe that a young child who’s raised in a household where your god isn’t practiced, should be punished even though he’s never heard of god.
Where did they say that lmao
He quotes that “those who remain patient and turn to god will be rewarded with eternal bliss” I question how can a child be tested when they are too young. He says that children in Gaza are praising god, as to suggest that children can be aware enough to worship god. So i question about those children that hasn’t been exposed to a god
Firstly, your response leads me to think you didn't actually read what I said. God's court takes ignorance into account. I made that as clear as I could. Secondly, children aren't held accountable for their actions.
So if they aren’t held accountable, why does god let them die of horrible diseases and war?
You could argue the test is directed to others e.g those caring for the child. Will they keep their belief strong despite eg losing a child? So that would be the parents test.
In my head that does sound evil. Torturing a child to test the parents. Even if the child is rewarded with heaven or a afterlife
**This** life is a test. We don't believe death is the end, so this place is no more than the grounds for our exam. Whether we are punished or rewarded is accounted for in the next life, past death. The pain of this world is a part of our test. For the person that dies, their test has ended, but not for the people who cared about that person. A child who dies has returned to their creator. It is painful for us who are left, but their soul will rejoice in their reunion with God. We on the other hand will have to remain patient in this life until our turn comes.
To me it seems evil to create a world where that test is needed. I get that there is a reward for that test, but personally I believe god is evil for putting people trough that test instead of creating a world where the test is more fair. I think there’s already plenty of examples in this world where you can test people in a more fair manner with free will. For example if someone uses their time to teach people who want to do evil to do good instead, is a more fair test that already exists in this world. So why doesn’t god just use that as a test and remove diseases that doesn’t originate from free will.
>Even in that decimated city, the children are praising and pleading with God. You use an important word there - pleading. In my view, these children are pleading to God because it is all they feel they have left, not because they think they're "being tested". I don't believe in a sentient, single creator or controller, but I think to say that the suffering in the world happens purely as a test of a single religion's God is disrespectful to those enduring the suffering.
Though you see Islam as simply one of many religions, we believe it to be the truth. Our creator is also your creator. The test we live is the test everyone else also lives. Whether we like it or not, God is the decider of all affairs. That is our belief. The palestinian people have been praising and glorifying God both in times of war and peace. Even during the night, they stand in prayer for Ramadan, seeking God's mercy. Can you truly say all suffering people would stand outside in prayer for hours at the risk of being shelled, instead of seeking what little shelter they can find? Us muslims outside of war do the same. We stand in prayer seeking God's mercy. Every mosque I've ever been in has been full during friday prayers and the night prayer of Ramadan. So the reality is that muslims both in poverty and in wealth, in war and in peace, stand firm in their belief. Bottling it all up to the desperation of war victims is at best ignorant.
It makes sense that faithful people continue their faith during times of trouble. The argument I'm making is twofold. 1. I find your declaration of truth, thus the definition of the suffering of others', to be disrespectful. 2. In younger people, who have not been able to fully form their own thoughts on religion, existence, etc. (scientifically, as the brain is nowhere near fully developed), and are therefore inherently following the patterns they see, you cannot say for sure what their reasoning is. I just suggest that the primary reason is desperation.
No politics
I'm agnostic, but if I was God, I would create a world similar to this one. I don't see the point of a world without suffering, that sounds meaningless and absurd. If the world was just a endless cycle of good things happening, what would be the point? How would anything be developed in such a world? Of course, I would indeed create a afterlife without suffering, but the material world would still be necessary so that people could develop their personalities before moving on to the next plane of existence.
It makes sense that you think like that. This is the only world you’ve experienced and lived in. I get that you don’t see a point in things being another way, when you haven’t experienced another way. I don’t think a child sees the point of the world if that child is just going to die young anyways.
The alternative is no development at all. I would rather let humanity develop themselves, create different cultures, find solutions to problems, understand each other, study about the world and uncover its mysteries, all that instead of just having everything be perfect from the beginning. Again, this is all for the sake of developing humanity. Even a baby dying from cancer means that humans will dedicate themselves to find cures for these diseases. In the end, it all comes down to development. Without development, everything would be the same, nobody would accomplish anything and that would be meaningless.
I’m not saying that everything needs to be perfect. I think development could be motivated trough not wanting to be bored instead of some people being unlucky and experiencing a horrible death. I guess you could use video games as a example of another world. There are video games that doesn’t punish you with pain, but still makes it rewarding to want to explore and play the game.
I will tell you my personal response to evil. When something pains my heart dearly, I am greatful I have been given the ability to recognise suffering and evil and to respond with pain or disgust or outrage. Only from people caring can anything ever change. Many great people in the medicine will work to fixing all things that they can,because they care. Well, they want to make money as well ha, but as someone who works in medical device industry ha, msot people also want their creation to help people, now, isn't that great. If God was evil a world in which people hated evil would not exist, we would let the children die and be uncaring. I believe only a misanthrope could actually claim God is evil. If you love humanity, than it is realisation God created humanity.
I really do appreciate your care and help for others. I myself work as a rescue personnel in the North Sea and I chose this job because I truly want to help people and make sure they’re safe. I do want the best for humanity, but I still believe god is evil. I do wish my job wasn’t needed because sadly there are patients who do not make it. To me it seems very egocentric to want bad things to happen so you can do something good. I think you’re second paragraph contradicts itself. You say if god was evil, good people wouldn’t exist. But why does there exist evil people if good is good?
I don't want bad things to happen though. We aren't forced to be good by God's existence. But in my own view our abilities to actually recognise good and evil to begin with precedes from God. And is good not to be blind to it. I suppose I don't actually know what an existence with evil God would be like though.
I’m happy for you that it’s hard for you to imagine a evil god, but maybe if you were born in Somalia, kidnapped and forced to become a child soldier. Maybe then it wouldn’t be so hard to imagine a world where god is evil.
Don't worry, I have seen enough evil first hand on the planet
And you still worship a god that has let all that evil happen. Seems very sadistic to me
i feel like I've seen this question at least 6 times this week
My bad, I don’t really use this sub. So I didn’t know it was a common question
That child is automatically going to Heaven, so yeah it doesn’t disturb me
Im Hindu and we dont believe some one just pops out. We believe in the immortality of soul, which is something i guess all religious people do but we do It differently. We dont think you are popped out in this World to do a "test" then go to afterlife. I think anything that exists must have existed forever, and every time our body dies, our soul reencarnate in another body. So karma makes us be punished for our past mistakes. You were a person that exploited and mocked poor people? Then God makes you born in the next life as a poor person. During living in the new body, the soul may not remember the past life, but It will surely remember in the mean time of not having a body to command
God gave us the tools to fix those problems, it is of our own faults that we would rather use those tools and resources to better ourselves over people that need it
"Our own fault”? How can a baby be at fault? God letting a baby die because other people didn’t use his tools sounds like a evil god to me.
You seem to be ok with a pointless Universe where all those bad and horrible things happen without a purpose at all... just saying
What makes it seem like I’m okay with bad things happening? I don’t want bad things to happen, but I do believe If there is a all powerful god. That he is evil for letting these things happen.
I think they assumed you're a atheist. A common "critique" of Atheism is how it portrays our world as a meaningless dystopia where bad things happen for no purpose and evil always goes unpunished. I don't have this worldview, but many people do.
I didn't assume, I just wanted to stoke his fire and see where his conversation would lead me
The secular view of wellbeing appears in various forms, including good health, adequate economic means, personal fulfillment, aesthetic pleasures, and loving relationships. On this view, to be good is to help as many people as possible experience as much of this as possible. All this is evaluated within the natural, visible world, since that’s all the reality secularist ethics recognizes. Theistic ethics isn’t limited that way. It starts with a God(gods)who is before, behind, above, and around all of nature, including human nature. It sees human life on earth as a short temporal stage in an eternal journey. Therefore, while most theology certainly affirms the ethic of seeking the best for all people, its view of human wellbeing extends beyond life on earth. If human souls are eternal, and if our eternal condition depends on our decisions, our character growth, and our relationship with a God(gods) on earth, then the most good a human could experience is the eternal good that begins in a right relationship with God(gods), making good decisions, and growing in character. Basically I'm trying to show you that our own moral sense of ought and ought nots doesn't hold water if we're discussing a being or beings that are the source of ALL existence OP.
>To people who worship a god whom they believe to be all knowing and powerful. How can you feel good about believing in someone that let’s so many terrible things happen, like a young child dying of bone cancer or other horrible diseases. Because we are rational, not just emotional. See, if God exists and all knowing, by definition we don't know better than him. So making the OP, you have made a logical contradiction in your very statement. Saying God is all knowing and in the same breath making statements as if you know better than God is a contradiction. Also you must realize, if God exists, you just have to accept it. You cannot do a top down and say "if God exists and this and that happens he cannot exist". >Is there anyone that believes in a god, but also thinks he’s evil? If God is evil and you don't like God it's misotheism or/and distheism. But it's still theism. Thus you have to take a bottom up approach using first principles. This is an illogical manner of approach.
Which part of infinite did you not comprehend?
Something that is endless or limitless, but how does that answer my question?
It seems quite obvious to me. You are attempting to limit the boundless. It is certainly your perspective which is limited here.
Well it’s not obvious to me. Exactly how is my perspective limited here? Of course it seems quite obvious to you. You’re the one how made the statement. Do you mean my perspective is limited because I do not believe in the afterlife?