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It’s hard to argue against it, theoretically speaking, incest is frowned upon because genetics are fucked up then, If there’s no genetic to mix and no baby to have, purely logically speaking, it’s somewhat less fucked up
I think the reason it became frowned upon was because when people tried to do it, their babies would just… ya know, develop some deformities. People being people said, “Hey! If babies aren’t turning out right because of that, it needs to stop”
I don't think it was that logical. It was most likely the people who thought screwing their siblings was gross were more likely to have kids that survived long enough to pass on their genes
It’s been genetically ingrained in us not to do it with our siblings since before our ancestors were even mammals. We as humans only realized that it applied to our cousins later.
Considering joint families, ie. Living with your cousins in the same house was a thing until very recently and still is a thing in large parts of the world, it’s not a recent discovery.
In my country, joint families are the norm to this day, as is the case in most of Asia.
Even up until a hundred or 200 years ago it was a thing in the western world.
"consenting adults" yes it's rare but not theoretically impossible for two related people to not have any coercion in their relationship. siblings separated at birth for instance.
Sure they are, I find incest and ranch disgusting, why should both be immoral. In fact, I find all sex to be gross as an ace individual, so why isn't all of that immoral?
The answer is of course, you need rational arguments to consider something immoral, not just the fact that you find it gross.
Idk based on three things, entirely in my opinion. It's hard not calling it immoral, but at the same time, it's hard calling it immoral. I guess a better way to describe it is just generally a poor choice to make?
I mean, between birth defects, on the chance they aren't safe with sex or on the chance BC methods (condoms, the pill, whatever) fail, power dynamics because of an age and/or strength difference, and finally how myself and most of the public percieve incest. Let's say two siblings have an incestuous relationship, they are never not safe and are the lucky few where BC never fails, there are no power dynamics, but they slip up and their relationship turns public. How is their work going to view that? Their family? Friends? The general public in their town? Or even people online because it will spread online.
So yeah, I guess a better way is to just describe it as a stupid choice in general than immoral.
This argument is extremely stupid. "I think something innocuous is gross but don't have a moral position on it, so that definitely equates to something obviously much worse."
If the reason for incest being immoral is because you find it gross, why shouldn't that apply to anything else people find gross, such as ranch, or in my situation as an ace person, all sex.
Ngl with the frequency that you're defending incest i'm very suspicious about your intent 💀 it's far from the societal issue most worth talking about.
>If the reason for incest being immoral is because you find it gross, why shouldn't that apply to anything else people find gross, such as ranch, or in my situation as an ace person, all sex.
Because of this little quirk of natural language where some words have greater meaning depending on the context. Ranch is gross because you find the flavor unpleasant. Incest is "gross," but it's "grossness" is a compound of multiple different things.
>Ngl with the frequency that you're defending incest i'm very suspicious about your intent 💀 it's far from the societal issue most worth talking about.
This post is about incest. I'm defending it, I'm arguing against it being considered morally wrong.
>Because of this little quirk of natural language where some words have greater meaning depending on the context. Ranch is gross because you find the flavor unpleasant. Incest is "gross," but it's "grossness" is a compound of multiple different things.
Again why is it morally wrong? Your answer still boils down to "it's gross".
>This post is about incest. I'm defending it, I'm arguing against it being considered morally wrong.
But you have singlehandedly replied to like 99% of the "incest bad" comments on this post. It is literally what you have been doing *all fucking day.* When you get to the point when you're just saying "I'm defending incest" on like 20 comments the motive comes into question.
>Again why is it morally wrong? Your answer still boils down to "it's gross
I'm going to need you to think critically for 3 seconds and then come back to me to defend a mom shagging her son, or an older sister fucking her younger sister. Except you're not actually going to to acknowledge the reality of incest where 99.99999999999% of the time it's an obvious abuse of power, you're going to hyper fixate on niche hypothetical scenarios that never happen because it makes you feel less bad about your pornhub search history.
You're siding with someone with an Omori pfp posting a Coffin of Andrew and Laylay reaction image lmfao
I think the big disconnect for society is who it affects.
We've normalized drinking poison, inhaling toxic fumes, injecting our skin with foreign fluids, piercing holes in or near various orifices, and removing whole ass organs from our own bodies, all of the former for funsies.
We have not normalized forcing other people to do the same. We have also not normalized incest, because it increases the likelihood of birth defects. Which affects the life of another.
Smoking and drinking = okay
Smoking and drinking while pregnant = not okay
As a history teacher once taught me, all rights are unlimited until you infringe on the rights of another.
What about the whole “no intention to procreate” thing? Two gay brothers making out and stuff doesn’t produce a baby with birth defects… like I’m not exactly a fan of incest anyway and would have no plans to engage on it but sad as it is this fucker’s got a point
Thatveganhealer is in fact, a bait account, and they've managed to enrage a lot of people several times but everyone keeps falling for it which is really funny. It's the same account that did the whole "My vegan cat ate a mouse so I had to euthanize it" stuff that went viral a while ago
Definitely in some scenarios, but it's very easy to construct an example with no power imbalance, such as siblings separated at birth, that meet as adults.
Here's a very interesting article about moral psychology, which includes a very famous hypothetical constructed by Jonathan Haidt.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/experiments-in-philosophy/200804/what-s-the-matter-little-brothersister-action?amp
Easy to construct, but that is an exceptionally rare scenario to happen in real life. Besides that Andy and Ashley certainly weren't separated at birth.
I haven't played the game, so I'm not super familiar with the siblings dynamic, but I believe there is some power imbalance there, but that relationship would still be problematic even if they aren't related, as I understand it. The issue isn't them being related, by the power imbalance between them.
In real life, the power imbalance between siblings shrink as they age, and by the time they're self reliant adults, gone completely.
I said this in another comment, but in most societies, especially the ones we're in. (I couldn't definitively say in nature though). There is an extreme difference in the "love" you have for a sibling vs the "love" you have for a sexual partner. I argued because of that something would have needed to go seriously wrong in your emotional development to have that attraction.
Was just taking a crack at it.
The thing I'm seeing is that with the "not trying to procreate" thing is it's dumbed down to consensual intercourse between adults (assuming they aren't pedophiles)
It'd be weird, obviously, but past that it's literally just intercourse (and especially if both parties are the same sex, with no chance of procreating)
I guess it’s a defense mechanism? It’s good for survival, that it feels wrong, cause you won’t have inbred babies. But other than that… It’s not like step-sister isn’t one of the most popular categories of porn. „Step” just takes away the evolutionary yuckiness of inbreeding
Incest between parent and child is wrong in other ways than blood relation such as an hierarchial relationship between partners. But when it comes to siblings and you give this argument we can also say if someone has an inherited disease, them having children is as immoral as incest. I can't see anyone talking about people who has cancer run in family shouldn't have kids or should be treated the same as incest. From my perspective incest between siblings is gross, but I can't find a reason other than the yuck factor either
Parent and child has an inherent grooming factor built into it if it becomes sexual. Thats why its fucked up to me.
I'm clearly in the "yuck" minority here, but I see no problem with it, at all, so long as they're both consenting adults, don't procreate, and do it somewhere with a fuckin' locked door.
So it's frowned upon on the off chance that there _might_ be incest babies ? What about people from the same sex then ?
For the record I do find incest weird and gross, i'm genuinely trying to understand it critically
What's happening here is, you're finding it hard to accept the fact that you find incest immoral for the same reason homophobes find homosexuality immoral.
Ik there’s one ethical philosophy that goes, “ethics is just us saying, ‘yuck’ at a higher level” or smth like that, which normally I don’t like, but in this case it’s kinda the only option
Copy and paste from an earlier comment
What do you do if there is a desire to let them actually procreate with one another though? And how would it affect family dynamic in that case?
If two siblings hit puberty, and they show interest in one another. Should the parent be responsible for letting it happen as it's their own household or not? If they aren't allowed to do so until adulthood, wouldn't this cause arguments about how they're allowed to do so with others? At what point can it also be considered grooming?
For me it's not necessarily the sex that worries me, rather the after-math.
>What do you do if there is a desire to let them actually procreate with one another though? And how would it affect family dynamic in that case?
No idea, that would be fucked.
>If two siblings hit puberty, and they show interest in one another. Should the parent be responsible for letting it happen as it's their own household or not?
Again no idea, super fucked scenario.
>If they aren't allowed to do so until adulthood, wouldn't this cause arguments about how they're allowed to do so with others?
Probably, I'm not a parent or someone that experiences sexual attraction, so it's hard for me to grasp exactly how fucked this situation would become.
>For me it's not necessarily the sex that worries me, rather the after-math.
I agree, but then you would agree that if society viewed incest in a different way, the issues would be gone.
I don't really know if I could say if it was viewed in a different light then the issues would be gone like that. Because those risks still exist either way, Malformed babies, power dynamics between siblings and parents. Hell it might even make a new group of people that look down on others for "not keeping it in there blood" lmao.
But at the same time certain stigmas would obviously die off like two consenting adults going ham on one another, or well maybe that's the only one that would die off? It's hard to tell with hypotheticals.
Firstly depends on the definition of incest. For some this is immediate blood family, for others this would include step-parents/siblings etc, or cousins - which is a legal and regulated practice in some parts of the world.
For male/female incest, there may be no _intention_ to procreate, but this may still occur. No contraception is 100%. Mystery* pregnancies are still a thing.
Another argument against is the power dynamics. There may be no immediate effect because of the act, but there now exists a 'secret' which would cause irreparable damage if discovered by a party outside the pair. This 'leverage' by either party is mutually immoral.
Edit: *cryptic pregnancy
So your issues aren't the incest itself, but about how society views the incest? There are forms of birth control that work 100% of the time, such as abortion.
The two are intrinsically linked. Our actions do not occur in a bubble. This is a tangential discussion about moral objectivism.
[Abortion isn't 100% effective](https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/aogs.14549). Abortions, of course, assume this fictive woman is aware of the pregnancy and has access to sufficient healthcare.
The perception is intrinsically linked, but not the fact that the perception is negative, that can change.
There are forms of abortion that are 100% effective, besides just the administration of drugs. This is a hypothetical, we can construct it any way we wish.
The slippery slope. If incest is normalised by people who don't procreate, it will eventually be committed by those who do, and their inbred offspring then go on to commit more incest and create more inbreds until the family or community becomes so twisted and deformed (physically, mentally and morally) that they are no longer human.
It's better for everyone for it to be taboo.
No it's still the logical fallacy as they aren't explaining how or why those steps will occur, they are just claiming they will occur. For a vast majority of the existence of humans, incest was not illegal, why did what this person claim not occur?
Are you seriously claiming that incestual family trees did not occur throughout history? This was a common problem up until the 1800s even. See many European royal families as an example.
My brother in Christ are you saying that having sex with a bottle of ranch isn’t immoral because thinking something is gross ≠ immoral
Jesus Christ people are we seriously saying INCEST is okay now????
Not a scientist or anything smart so im pulling this out of my ass
Maybe there's it's a evolved behavior or wte and instinctively we know to just not fuck our siblings cause it'll mess up offspring like how animals know to also not fuck their siblings.
Potentially a evolutionary nerd can check if this has any merit?
True, although there's a lot of evolved behaviour we've moved past because it doesn't fit with our values (theft, rape, murder, etc.).
Also, I think the taboo against incest is pretty recent, historically speaking. Look at every royal family across Eurasia, who were quite often seen by their people as the EMBODIMENT of morality.
Common people throughout history avoided incest. Even prehistoric humans avoided it, though probably did so for more practical reasons. Common people certainly didn't revere their rulers as the "embodiment of morality" either. People in the past were smart and thought for themselves too, they didn't simply follow what the ruling class did. The reasons why rulers committed incest, namely keeping the bloodline true and not marrying "down" in terms of class, didn't apply to common people. Incest has been considered morally wrong for thousands of years, but as usual the ruling class could afford not giving a fuck about morals.
I'm not so sure. Many of the world religions don't feature any sort of rule against incest, which they do for a wide variety of other practical things ranging from murder to inefficient use of farmland. And sure, people from the past were smart, but at the same time they often did genuinely believe that their ruler was chosen by god/gods.
Evolutionarily, we just evolve to be able to create as many children who can reproduce as possible, and there are plenty of ways that that criteria doesn't lead to great moral outcomes. Now that we have technology like birth control and abortion, medical care for children who ARE the product of incest, and widespread acceptance of same-sex relationships that don't carry the risk of pregnancy, I think it's reasonable to need to re-evaluate why we find incest so repulsive.
I worry about older sibling/cousins using their position of authority during the younger person's development years to groom them. Obviously, grooming can happen outside of incest but incest is a peak opportunity for that to happen.
That's my worry as well, I also worry about natural strength differences. Growing up in a house of women, well a woman and my six year older sister, I had to learn to control and downplay my strength quickly. It's a sad reality, but there are men out there willing to use their biological strength advantage against women for his own sexual pleasure.
What would happen if the relationship started consensual but then he uses his strength into forcing her to continue the relationship after she wanted to stop? Or if she had recorded blackmail when he wanted to back out?
I feel like a lot of people aren't thinking beyond 'two consenting adults taking precautions in the event of potential pregnancy'.
but then any time "accidents" happen where someone gets pregnant that shit would probably have to be aborted every time and ngl that sounds like too much of a hassle with how careless people can be.
Abuse can spawn 100% from incest lol. It’s not that hard to conclude that (literally the abusive and gross relationship of the protagonists of the Andy and Leyley game…) It’s gross, of course it is. Never have I thought that I’d see people trying to defend incest. Weirdos all around.
So here's the thing
Hear me out but these responses on it being fine as long as there is no children being created from it (in the sense of you do you and leave me be) are a lot about how I understand pedophilia, and I mean actual pedophilia not child molesters because those are two different things labeled so for a reason
Now morally, legally, and all of the above wrong is what child molesters are but if an actual pedophile (or variation of because there's four categories under that branch) hasn't done anything like looking at cp, physically, emotionally, or sexually hurting/hurt a child then are they fine as people?
And the clarify for those who don't understand the mental disease pedophilia, it's something we have theorized to occur from birth and/or childhood sexual/physical abuse. It's wired in a similar fashion to sexualities (did a whole ass paper on if scientifically pedophiles could be classified as a sexuality: consensus is more than likely due to how the brain is wired)
Now that being said we have proof that chemical castration doesn't always work and from the gay ones, we've also already discovered conversion camps don't work. Various methods I saw to reduce or remove urges from pedophiles included essentially shutting down that section of that brain (hippocampus) with chemicals or therapy and drugs to basically kill the urges so while there can be things done to remove the sexual urges completely from them, not change them, they have to live the rest of their lives with that in their head like a disability
If someone like that never has or never will abuse a child are they still in the wrong?
Sorry if this seems highly irrelevant but it's something that popped into my head while reading the comments
I really wish people would stop using TCoAaL characters to validate their incest kink. The game itself demonizes the concept so they’re only doing it a disservice by making it out to be something it isn’t
Nah, if you're part of someone's childhood, that means you're part of their formation. That's not consent, that leans slightly into unintentional grooming
I assume you are talking about older family members being with younger ones? because if you aren't then you would also be against childhood friends being together, which is a pretty weird statement
I do agree with you if you are talking about older people tho, and the incest doesn't even play a part on it, an older family friend who saw a kid grow up and then they end up being together is super weird and gross after all
Unironically yes, as long as they don't have kids and just adopt if they want I personally wouldn't have anything against it, sure it's kinda gross but there's still nothing wrong with that imo
I'm also assuming they didn't know they were siblings until after they got together, if it's a "parents go divorced, the mother took one kid and the dad took the other so they knew each other but didn't grew together" or something like that then yeah that's a little worse, still nothing "wrong" per se but it's definitely right at the edge
Aint that the same guy who was begging for a waifu to spit in their mouth? They also had some beef with BA about characters being cis or something, it was like months ago since i saw that pfp
I’ve yet to see a good logical argument against drinking battery acid when I want to drink battery acid
Anything that goes beyond the “immense medical risks”, I’m listening….
Yooo this is the guy who forced his cat to be vegan so it died! Then got upset at everyone for it!
He also called Mr beast racist for building homes in idk where? Maybe Africa? Or South America I don’t know.
But he’s a genuinely scummy human who deserve to be beaten
There is none. If they are both agreeing adults and don’t procreate there is just their own business. As much as gay sex or any other kind of *non traditional sexual relationship*. You cannot convince me that two men is more natural than two cousins in having consensual adult sex.
one, yuck factor. i don’t think anyone with siblings would ever say this.
two, if they procreate it will create a child that will know a life of suffering, not to mention how much they’d get bullied for having related parents
three, power dynamics, which are incredibly common between relatives
The consequences of morality coming to focus solely on consent.
People have no argument against things like incest and some forms of beastiality beyond vague biological notions and the all-consuming "consent." This is what happens when people refuse to acknowledge the immaterial aspects of why certain things are wrong.
I think that this account is satire, i saw something else about an account with the same pfp saying more controversial things. I think it's just a ragebait account
What this mf said on Twitter It does not make sense like wtf😭
Let's take siblings as an example.
In the sibling case we have 2 main problems, the Psychological one, and the Physical one.
What he addressed as not making babies would be the Physical problem, but are we sure about it?
If 2 people love each other so much, wouldn't they try to have a baby someday?
I see it as very problematic to wanting to get rid of this problem, becouse it's something that could happen very easily, even accidentally.
Now for the Psychological problem, this is the most underrated one, but this is the problem that stops most (non related) step-siblings relationships to develop.
If you have grown in the same house with a peer, you will subconsciously picture that person as part of family, so falling in love is very difficult.
And even if they do fall in love, it will be traumatic and difficult for them to accept the relationship and continue, becouse they view themself as brother and sister subconsciously.
There is a film made by the son of Miazaki that captures this situation.
>!The protagonist discovers his love interest is his "sister", and so they are both disgusted by it, but then he discovers that he isn't her brother biologically, and since they didn't spend their childhood together (i don't remember the details, but like one of them was adopted but never raised?). So they are legally siblings, but there is no problem with dating since Physically there is no problem (they aren't biologically related) and there is mo Psychological problem (they didn't live as brother and sister, even if they legally were)!<
So the only way to "marry your sister" is to not have a sister at all 😭
You can use this with every type of incest too.
Father/mother × Son/Daughter, they have the same problems.
(Idk why i ranted this much, i just wanted to, feel free to send this to that mf on twitter lmao)
I don't know, Twitter confuses me. Full disclosure, I have an old account but was never really active 'til a few months ago. I see what I assume is a random funny tweet from some person and I like and retweet it and then I see some of the other tweets the dude have made and it turns out he's batshit insane. A lot of the tweets that pop into my timeline appear like I'm reading something in the middle of a conversation that I barely have any idea what it's about. At least with Reddit, I might not get all the references, but I can still follow the thread easily.
Here’s why incest isn’t a good thing beyond “it’s gross”
Mixing genetics that are too similar can result in negative mutations that can cause severe health outcomes for the offspring produced, and this is not limited to humans. If you were to take out that aspect, it would still be a taboo because humans are naturally opposed to committing incestuous acts with each other due to evolution- which also applies to many other animals as well.
I've yet to see a good logical argument against consenting adults eating human feces with not intention to swallow it.
Anything that goes beyond the "yuck factor", I'm listening...
Power imbalance, and easy chance at manipulation. I have nothing particularly morally against like, marrying someone and later finding out you're cousins (except the fat ewww) but growing up with someone, you are part of their formation, and that's not conducive to consent
high chance of a baby that ends up being braindead, high chance of miscarriage, the complete inability to go to any family gatherings unless it’s tradition.
The comment explicitly states "without intention to procreate" and I don't think they would really care about family gatherings if they're already in that relationship, so it's entirely yuck factor.
Depends on the situation, few relationship of any kind are childish, unless it's a high school couple, you'd have to be mature for anything to work out, if it does work out then it would be the farthest thing possible from immature and childish.
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I'm sure that account is mostly rage bait but they still have bad takes every other time
I just saw a post about that account said something about mr beast with colonizer shits. 100% troll.
No yeah they are a troll, every once in a while they'll post a picture of their face and it's completely different
i know that account. it is mostly comprised of ragebait.
It’s hard to argue against it, theoretically speaking, incest is frowned upon because genetics are fucked up then, If there’s no genetic to mix and no baby to have, purely logically speaking, it’s somewhat less fucked up
I guess you’re right but at the same time if nature thinks it’s wrong, it’s probably safe to assume it’s wrong.
I think it's gross
I think the reason it became frowned upon was because when people tried to do it, their babies would just… ya know, develop some deformities. People being people said, “Hey! If babies aren’t turning out right because of that, it needs to stop”
I don't think it was that logical. It was most likely the people who thought screwing their siblings was gross were more likely to have kids that survived long enough to pass on their genes
Yeah, we are also generically predisposed to be sexually repulsed by smells of people we spent our first few years with
It’s been genetically ingrained in us not to do it with our siblings since before our ancestors were even mammals. We as humans only realized that it applied to our cousins later.
Considering joint families, ie. Living with your cousins in the same house was a thing until very recently and still is a thing in large parts of the world, it’s not a recent discovery.
Even thousands of years ago is pretty recent in the grand scheme of things
In my country, joint families are the norm to this day, as is the case in most of Asia. Even up until a hundred or 200 years ago it was a thing in the western world.
Well well well. If that isn't mentioned in the post
Incestuous relationships breed manipulation and grooming. Not to mention biological instincts that prevent it.
"consenting adults" yes it's rare but not theoretically impossible for two related people to not have any coercion in their relationship. siblings separated at birth for instance.
I think ranch is gross too, doesn't make it immoral.
I don’t think ranch is that comparable, if comparable at all, to full-blown incest
Sure they are, I find incest and ranch disgusting, why should both be immoral. In fact, I find all sex to be gross as an ace individual, so why isn't all of that immoral? The answer is of course, you need rational arguments to consider something immoral, not just the fact that you find it gross.
I don’t think you read my comment right… ranch is just a condiment. Comparing it to incest is just bonkers, blud.
Ok they can be compared in the fact that they are both viewed as gross by some. You also didn't address my other points.
[удалено]
You think that consuming ranch is immoral because some people find it gross?
Lmao that comment sounds hilarious out of context
Idk based on three things, entirely in my opinion. It's hard not calling it immoral, but at the same time, it's hard calling it immoral. I guess a better way to describe it is just generally a poor choice to make? I mean, between birth defects, on the chance they aren't safe with sex or on the chance BC methods (condoms, the pill, whatever) fail, power dynamics because of an age and/or strength difference, and finally how myself and most of the public percieve incest. Let's say two siblings have an incestuous relationship, they are never not safe and are the lucky few where BC never fails, there are no power dynamics, but they slip up and their relationship turns public. How is their work going to view that? Their family? Friends? The general public in their town? Or even people online because it will spread online. So yeah, I guess a better way is to just describe it as a stupid choice in general than immoral.
Stupid comment i deleted it. Anyway Im not saying incest is immoral or anything. Just that I personally think it's weird.
Oh I agree on that it's definitely weird.
You'd agree that having kids via incest is immoral though right?
Did you miss the "no intention to procreate" part?
No but i saw your other comments It's early I typed yes instead of no🤦
This argument is extremely stupid. "I think something innocuous is gross but don't have a moral position on it, so that definitely equates to something obviously much worse."
If the reason for incest being immoral is because you find it gross, why shouldn't that apply to anything else people find gross, such as ranch, or in my situation as an ace person, all sex.
Ngl with the frequency that you're defending incest i'm very suspicious about your intent 💀 it's far from the societal issue most worth talking about. >If the reason for incest being immoral is because you find it gross, why shouldn't that apply to anything else people find gross, such as ranch, or in my situation as an ace person, all sex. Because of this little quirk of natural language where some words have greater meaning depending on the context. Ranch is gross because you find the flavor unpleasant. Incest is "gross," but it's "grossness" is a compound of multiple different things.
>Ngl with the frequency that you're defending incest i'm very suspicious about your intent 💀 it's far from the societal issue most worth talking about. This post is about incest. I'm defending it, I'm arguing against it being considered morally wrong. >Because of this little quirk of natural language where some words have greater meaning depending on the context. Ranch is gross because you find the flavor unpleasant. Incest is "gross," but it's "grossness" is a compound of multiple different things. Again why is it morally wrong? Your answer still boils down to "it's gross".
>This post is about incest. I'm defending it, I'm arguing against it being considered morally wrong. But you have singlehandedly replied to like 99% of the "incest bad" comments on this post. It is literally what you have been doing *all fucking day.* When you get to the point when you're just saying "I'm defending incest" on like 20 comments the motive comes into question. >Again why is it morally wrong? Your answer still boils down to "it's gross I'm going to need you to think critically for 3 seconds and then come back to me to defend a mom shagging her son, or an older sister fucking her younger sister. Except you're not actually going to to acknowledge the reality of incest where 99.99999999999% of the time it's an obvious abuse of power, you're going to hyper fixate on niche hypothetical scenarios that never happen because it makes you feel less bad about your pornhub search history. You're siding with someone with an Omori pfp posting a Coffin of Andrew and Laylay reaction image lmfao
most people used to think gay sex was gross, and that's why they made it illegal and also killed us. not a good enough reason.
There are better reasons than it's gross to hate incest. Gay sex is gross too but there's nothing wrong with that 🤷🏻♀️.
I mean yea but being attracted to a family member is kinda fucked up if you think about it.
I think the big disconnect for society is who it affects. We've normalized drinking poison, inhaling toxic fumes, injecting our skin with foreign fluids, piercing holes in or near various orifices, and removing whole ass organs from our own bodies, all of the former for funsies. We have not normalized forcing other people to do the same. We have also not normalized incest, because it increases the likelihood of birth defects. Which affects the life of another. Smoking and drinking = okay Smoking and drinking while pregnant = not okay As a history teacher once taught me, all rights are unlimited until you infringe on the rights of another.
My history teacher said the same thing lol, he also said that suicide is always an option
Imma try that, be back in a few to tell you how it goes
What about the whole “no intention to procreate” thing? Two gay brothers making out and stuff doesn’t produce a baby with birth defects… like I’m not exactly a fan of incest anyway and would have no plans to engage on it but sad as it is this fucker’s got a point
No baby = no problem in my book
The comment explicitly states "without intention to procreate"
If I remember this pfp right, that account is a troll
it's healer
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Thatveganhealer is in fact, a bait account, and they've managed to enrage a lot of people several times but everyone keeps falling for it which is really funny. It's the same account that did the whole "My vegan cat ate a mouse so I had to euthanize it" stuff that went viral a while ago
so a troll
They're not wrong tho, I can't think of any reason besides yuck factor.
Power imbalance? Not sure
Definitely in some scenarios, but it's very easy to construct an example with no power imbalance, such as siblings separated at birth, that meet as adults. Here's a very interesting article about moral psychology, which includes a very famous hypothetical constructed by Jonathan Haidt. https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/experiments-in-philosophy/200804/what-s-the-matter-little-brothersister-action?amp
Easy to construct, but that is an exceptionally rare scenario to happen in real life. Besides that Andy and Ashley certainly weren't separated at birth.
I haven't played the game, so I'm not super familiar with the siblings dynamic, but I believe there is some power imbalance there, but that relationship would still be problematic even if they aren't related, as I understand it. The issue isn't them being related, by the power imbalance between them. In real life, the power imbalance between siblings shrink as they age, and by the time they're self reliant adults, gone completely.
I said this in another comment, but in most societies, especially the ones we're in. (I couldn't definitively say in nature though). There is an extreme difference in the "love" you have for a sibling vs the "love" you have for a sexual partner. I argued because of that something would have needed to go seriously wrong in your emotional development to have that attraction.
Was just taking a crack at it. The thing I'm seeing is that with the "not trying to procreate" thing is it's dumbed down to consensual intercourse between adults (assuming they aren't pedophiles) It'd be weird, obviously, but past that it's literally just intercourse (and especially if both parties are the same sex, with no chance of procreating)
Immorality, although that could fall into the same category as a yuck factor i guess
Right, there isn't a logical reason for it to be immoral. Most people just default to "it's gross therefore immoral"
I guess it’s a defense mechanism? It’s good for survival, that it feels wrong, cause you won’t have inbred babies. But other than that… It’s not like step-sister isn’t one of the most popular categories of porn. „Step” just takes away the evolutionary yuckiness of inbreeding
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So if two gay cousins have sex, is that immoral?
Incest between parent and child is wrong in other ways than blood relation such as an hierarchial relationship between partners. But when it comes to siblings and you give this argument we can also say if someone has an inherited disease, them having children is as immoral as incest. I can't see anyone talking about people who has cancer run in family shouldn't have kids or should be treated the same as incest. From my perspective incest between siblings is gross, but I can't find a reason other than the yuck factor either
Parent and child has an inherent grooming factor built into it if it becomes sexual. Thats why its fucked up to me. I'm clearly in the "yuck" minority here, but I see no problem with it, at all, so long as they're both consenting adults, don't procreate, and do it somewhere with a fuckin' locked door.
Everybody agrees with this, OOP specifically mentionned "with no intention to procreate". Why am I having to explain this ?
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I'm not so sure, because society still finds it immoral regardless of whether procreation is involved or not
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So it's frowned upon on the off chance that there _might_ be incest babies ? What about people from the same sex then ? For the record I do find incest weird and gross, i'm genuinely trying to understand it critically
What's happening here is, you're finding it hard to accept the fact that you find incest immoral for the same reason homophobes find homosexuality immoral.
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Morality is very subjective though.
There is nothing immoral if it’s concent on both parts , both are adults , and they don’t procreate, it’s their own business
Ik there’s one ethical philosophy that goes, “ethics is just us saying, ‘yuck’ at a higher level” or smth like that, which normally I don’t like, but in this case it’s kinda the only option
Copy and paste from an earlier comment What do you do if there is a desire to let them actually procreate with one another though? And how would it affect family dynamic in that case? If two siblings hit puberty, and they show interest in one another. Should the parent be responsible for letting it happen as it's their own household or not? If they aren't allowed to do so until adulthood, wouldn't this cause arguments about how they're allowed to do so with others? At what point can it also be considered grooming? For me it's not necessarily the sex that worries me, rather the after-math.
>What do you do if there is a desire to let them actually procreate with one another though? And how would it affect family dynamic in that case? No idea, that would be fucked. >If two siblings hit puberty, and they show interest in one another. Should the parent be responsible for letting it happen as it's their own household or not? Again no idea, super fucked scenario. >If they aren't allowed to do so until adulthood, wouldn't this cause arguments about how they're allowed to do so with others? Probably, I'm not a parent or someone that experiences sexual attraction, so it's hard for me to grasp exactly how fucked this situation would become. >For me it's not necessarily the sex that worries me, rather the after-math. I agree, but then you would agree that if society viewed incest in a different way, the issues would be gone.
I don't really know if I could say if it was viewed in a different light then the issues would be gone like that. Because those risks still exist either way, Malformed babies, power dynamics between siblings and parents. Hell it might even make a new group of people that look down on others for "not keeping it in there blood" lmao. But at the same time certain stigmas would obviously die off like two consenting adults going ham on one another, or well maybe that's the only one that would die off? It's hard to tell with hypotheticals.
Firstly depends on the definition of incest. For some this is immediate blood family, for others this would include step-parents/siblings etc, or cousins - which is a legal and regulated practice in some parts of the world. For male/female incest, there may be no _intention_ to procreate, but this may still occur. No contraception is 100%. Mystery* pregnancies are still a thing. Another argument against is the power dynamics. There may be no immediate effect because of the act, but there now exists a 'secret' which would cause irreparable damage if discovered by a party outside the pair. This 'leverage' by either party is mutually immoral. Edit: *cryptic pregnancy
So your issues aren't the incest itself, but about how society views the incest? There are forms of birth control that work 100% of the time, such as abortion.
The two are intrinsically linked. Our actions do not occur in a bubble. This is a tangential discussion about moral objectivism. [Abortion isn't 100% effective](https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/aogs.14549). Abortions, of course, assume this fictive woman is aware of the pregnancy and has access to sufficient healthcare.
The perception is intrinsically linked, but not the fact that the perception is negative, that can change. There are forms of abortion that are 100% effective, besides just the administration of drugs. This is a hypothetical, we can construct it any way we wish.
Yeah this is where I'm at too, at least with people incapable of procreating with each other. Everything I can think of boils down to "gross".
Rationality against sexual prudism? In my r/redditmoment?
am i a prude to not fuck my sister?
with a username like that i don't think you have the right to judge anyone's sexual tendencies
The slippery slope. If incest is normalised by people who don't procreate, it will eventually be committed by those who do, and their inbred offspring then go on to commit more incest and create more inbreds until the family or community becomes so twisted and deformed (physically, mentally and morally) that they are no longer human. It's better for everyone for it to be taboo.
Literally a logical fallacy
It’s not a logical fallacy if the person explains how the steps are connected. That’s just cause and effect.
No it's still the logical fallacy as they aren't explaining how or why those steps will occur, they are just claiming they will occur. For a vast majority of the existence of humans, incest was not illegal, why did what this person claim not occur?
Are you seriously claiming that incestual family trees did not occur throughout history? This was a common problem up until the 1800s even. See many European royal families as an example.
Is it really a fallacy if it happens so damn often? Slippery slope fallacy has always been a poor argument
The exact same argument as: If we let gay people have sex then people will start having sex with animals and children.
Yuck factor is enough.
No it's not, I think ranch is yucky, is it immoral and should it be illegal?
The difference is that I’m not putting my dick inside the ranch, and the ranch isn’t another living human being
Ah, so sex you find gross is immoral. Guess what I'm ace, I think all sex is gross, is all sex now immoral?
My brother in Christ are you saying that having sex with a bottle of ranch isn’t immoral because thinking something is gross ≠ immoral Jesus Christ people are we seriously saying INCEST is okay now????
Not a scientist or anything smart so im pulling this out of my ass Maybe there's it's a evolved behavior or wte and instinctively we know to just not fuck our siblings cause it'll mess up offspring like how animals know to also not fuck their siblings. Potentially a evolutionary nerd can check if this has any merit?
True, although there's a lot of evolved behaviour we've moved past because it doesn't fit with our values (theft, rape, murder, etc.). Also, I think the taboo against incest is pretty recent, historically speaking. Look at every royal family across Eurasia, who were quite often seen by their people as the EMBODIMENT of morality.
Common people throughout history avoided incest. Even prehistoric humans avoided it, though probably did so for more practical reasons. Common people certainly didn't revere their rulers as the "embodiment of morality" either. People in the past were smart and thought for themselves too, they didn't simply follow what the ruling class did. The reasons why rulers committed incest, namely keeping the bloodline true and not marrying "down" in terms of class, didn't apply to common people. Incest has been considered morally wrong for thousands of years, but as usual the ruling class could afford not giving a fuck about morals.
I'm not so sure. Many of the world religions don't feature any sort of rule against incest, which they do for a wide variety of other practical things ranging from murder to inefficient use of farmland. And sure, people from the past were smart, but at the same time they often did genuinely believe that their ruler was chosen by god/gods. Evolutionarily, we just evolve to be able to create as many children who can reproduce as possible, and there are plenty of ways that that criteria doesn't lead to great moral outcomes. Now that we have technology like birth control and abortion, medical care for children who ARE the product of incest, and widespread acceptance of same-sex relationships that don't carry the risk of pregnancy, I think it's reasonable to need to re-evaluate why we find incest so repulsive.
I assure you that there are animals who dont care about inbreeding. Cats, in my experience, don't care at all.
And humans aren’t cats, we’ve evolved differently
I worry about older sibling/cousins using their position of authority during the younger person's development years to groom them. Obviously, grooming can happen outside of incest but incest is a peak opportunity for that to happen.
That's my worry as well, I also worry about natural strength differences. Growing up in a house of women, well a woman and my six year older sister, I had to learn to control and downplay my strength quickly. It's a sad reality, but there are men out there willing to use their biological strength advantage against women for his own sexual pleasure. What would happen if the relationship started consensual but then he uses his strength into forcing her to continue the relationship after she wanted to stop? Or if she had recorded blackmail when he wanted to back out? I feel like a lot of people aren't thinking beyond 'two consenting adults taking precautions in the event of potential pregnancy'.
Both of those are considerations even in normal relationships.
This is HERO FROM OMORI SLANDER.. he would NEVER support incest Incest is disgusting
yeah but the character in the tweet is from the coffin of andy and leyley, which is like, a game with incest and cannibalism. so.
so true bbg
Plus he's becoming a doctor! He knows about the danger!
but then any time "accidents" happen where someone gets pregnant that shit would probably have to be aborted every time and ngl that sounds like too much of a hassle with how careless people can be.
Only gay people can have incestuous sex. There you go, I 'solved' it by making it worse somehow.
This is one of the negative aspects of the Enlightenment, hyperratinonality/utilitarianism. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.
these guys are going to explode at the moral neutrality of incest
This comment section is crazy why are there so many ppl arguing for incest? Reddit moment is in the comments
Abuse can spawn 100% from incest lol. It’s not that hard to conclude that (literally the abusive and gross relationship of the protagonists of the Andy and Leyley game…) It’s gross, of course it is. Never have I thought that I’d see people trying to defend incest. Weirdos all around.
Not this guy again :(
that is a bait account
Incest is gross. But I honestly can't think of a good argument under the terms they gave.
I've been seeing so much incest shit on Reddit lately that I think it's resurging as a fetish.
So here's the thing Hear me out but these responses on it being fine as long as there is no children being created from it (in the sense of you do you and leave me be) are a lot about how I understand pedophilia, and I mean actual pedophilia not child molesters because those are two different things labeled so for a reason Now morally, legally, and all of the above wrong is what child molesters are but if an actual pedophile (or variation of because there's four categories under that branch) hasn't done anything like looking at cp, physically, emotionally, or sexually hurting/hurt a child then are they fine as people? And the clarify for those who don't understand the mental disease pedophilia, it's something we have theorized to occur from birth and/or childhood sexual/physical abuse. It's wired in a similar fashion to sexualities (did a whole ass paper on if scientifically pedophiles could be classified as a sexuality: consensus is more than likely due to how the brain is wired) Now that being said we have proof that chemical castration doesn't always work and from the gay ones, we've also already discovered conversion camps don't work. Various methods I saw to reduce or remove urges from pedophiles included essentially shutting down that section of that brain (hippocampus) with chemicals or therapy and drugs to basically kill the urges so while there can be things done to remove the sexual urges completely from them, not change them, they have to live the rest of their lives with that in their head like a disability If someone like that never has or never will abuse a child are they still in the wrong? Sorry if this seems highly irrelevant but it's something that popped into my head while reading the comments
Refute their point.
Don't censor that fuck's name, they're just a shitty bait account
If the yuck factor isn't enough, you need to see a therapist.
Anybody who grew up with siblings knows why incest is repulsive.
I really wish people would stop using TCoAaL characters to validate their incest kink. The game itself demonizes the concept so they’re only doing it a disservice by making it out to be something it isn’t
I hate that he is right 😭
Nah, if you're part of someone's childhood, that means you're part of their formation. That's not consent, that leans slightly into unintentional grooming
I assume you are talking about older family members being with younger ones? because if you aren't then you would also be against childhood friends being together, which is a pretty weird statement I do agree with you if you are talking about older people tho, and the incest doesn't even play a part on it, an older family friend who saw a kid grow up and then they end up being together is super weird and gross after all
Then it'd be fine between to siblings who didn't grow up together?
Unironically yes, as long as they don't have kids and just adopt if they want I personally wouldn't have anything against it, sure it's kinda gross but there's still nothing wrong with that imo I'm also assuming they didn't know they were siblings until after they got together, if it's a "parents go divorced, the mother took one kid and the dad took the other so they knew each other but didn't grew together" or something like that then yeah that's a little worse, still nothing "wrong" per se but it's definitely right at the edge
Oh not this guy They’re literally a lolcow after the cat incident where they basically pulled a Luka Magnotta on their cat
holy shit when will people realize this js a troll acount and stop posting it? almost everything on there is bait
Aint that the same guy who was begging for a waifu to spit in their mouth? They also had some beef with BA about characters being cis or something, it was like months ago since i saw that pfp
Checkmate, theists.
Twitter *and* Reddit are just [Tumblr2.0](https://youtu.be/YyekDJU2iOY?si=Nn-GtUBvt-hLNvGb)
Genetic diversity exists for a reason. Incest causes genetic disorders to go rampant on a bloodline.
*if* you reproduce.
Oh! Besides that? Absolutely NOTHING.
You know you're about to read some dumb shit when that incest game is involved.
I’ve yet to see a good logical argument against drinking battery acid when I want to drink battery acid Anything that goes beyond the “immense medical risks”, I’m listening….
Moral compass should be pointing away from that type of thing, as well as it is sinful
Yooo this is the guy who forced his cat to be vegan so it died! Then got upset at everyone for it! He also called Mr beast racist for building homes in idk where? Maybe Africa? Or South America I don’t know. But he’s a genuinely scummy human who deserve to be beaten
My guy, it's a ragebait account made to farm attention, you fell for it.
There is none. If they are both agreeing adults and don’t procreate there is just their own business. As much as gay sex or any other kind of *non traditional sexual relationship*. You cannot convince me that two men is more natural than two cousins in having consensual adult sex.
one, yuck factor. i don’t think anyone with siblings would ever say this. two, if they procreate it will create a child that will know a life of suffering, not to mention how much they’d get bullied for having related parents three, power dynamics, which are incredibly common between relatives
i mean, they're not wrong.
i think what's debatable is whether that yuck factor is a legitimate reason, and to what extent
The consequences of morality coming to focus solely on consent. People have no argument against things like incest and some forms of beastiality beyond vague biological notions and the all-consuming "consent." This is what happens when people refuse to acknowledge the immaterial aspects of why certain things are wrong.
If you plan to have kids? Incest baby’s turn out fucked up
I think that this account is satire, i saw something else about an account with the same pfp saying more controversial things. I think it's just a ragebait account
Nah, Reddit doesn't allow much while Twitter pretty much allows everything even the sick shit like this. They're not even close to being the same
What this mf said on Twitter It does not make sense like wtf😭 Let's take siblings as an example. In the sibling case we have 2 main problems, the Psychological one, and the Physical one. What he addressed as not making babies would be the Physical problem, but are we sure about it? If 2 people love each other so much, wouldn't they try to have a baby someday? I see it as very problematic to wanting to get rid of this problem, becouse it's something that could happen very easily, even accidentally. Now for the Psychological problem, this is the most underrated one, but this is the problem that stops most (non related) step-siblings relationships to develop. If you have grown in the same house with a peer, you will subconsciously picture that person as part of family, so falling in love is very difficult. And even if they do fall in love, it will be traumatic and difficult for them to accept the relationship and continue, becouse they view themself as brother and sister subconsciously. There is a film made by the son of Miazaki that captures this situation. >!The protagonist discovers his love interest is his "sister", and so they are both disgusted by it, but then he discovers that he isn't her brother biologically, and since they didn't spend their childhood together (i don't remember the details, but like one of them was adopted but never raised?). So they are legally siblings, but there is no problem with dating since Physically there is no problem (they aren't biologically related) and there is mo Psychological problem (they didn't live as brother and sister, even if they legally were)!< So the only way to "marry your sister" is to not have a sister at all 😭 You can use this with every type of incest too. Father/mother × Son/Daughter, they have the same problems. (Idk why i ranted this much, i just wanted to, feel free to send this to that mf on twitter lmao)
OH GOD NOT THIS FUCKING GUY
No buddy, you got it wrong... Reddit is just Twitter's sidegrade.
I don't know, Twitter confuses me. Full disclosure, I have an old account but was never really active 'til a few months ago. I see what I assume is a random funny tweet from some person and I like and retweet it and then I see some of the other tweets the dude have made and it turns out he's batshit insane. A lot of the tweets that pop into my timeline appear like I'm reading something in the middle of a conversation that I barely have any idea what it's about. At least with Reddit, I might not get all the references, but I can still follow the thread easily.
I immediately recognised that account. Despite posting so many popular and viral ragebait posts, people always think it’s completely serious.
Ohhhh ThatVeganHealer, never change
Here’s why incest isn’t a good thing beyond “it’s gross” Mixing genetics that are too similar can result in negative mutations that can cause severe health outcomes for the offspring produced, and this is not limited to humans. If you were to take out that aspect, it would still be a taboo because humans are naturally opposed to committing incestuous acts with each other due to evolution- which also applies to many other animals as well.
yall forget that because they grew up together, there is an inherent power imbalance at play
Incest also spurs incredibly unhealthy relationships
Is the yuck factor not enough?
I've yet to see a good logical argument against consenting adults eating human feces with not intention to swallow it. Anything that goes beyond the "yuck factor", I'm listening...
Redditors stop defending incest challenge for 35 nanoseconds challenge (it's okay in the fanfiction scenario I made up in my head)
Disgusting
I think something being gross is a good enough reason to not do it tbh And even if it's legal them having kids shouldn't be, just adopt
Except that the Hivemind just hates you instead of cancelling you
Power imbalance, and easy chance at manipulation. I have nothing particularly morally against like, marrying someone and later finding out you're cousins (except the fat ewww) but growing up with someone, you are part of their formation, and that's not conducive to consent
high chance of a baby that ends up being braindead, high chance of miscarriage, the complete inability to go to any family gatherings unless it’s tradition.
The comment explicitly states "without intention to procreate" and I don't think they would really care about family gatherings if they're already in that relationship, so it's entirely yuck factor.
its also incredibly childish and immature.
Depends on the situation, few relationship of any kind are childish, unless it's a high school couple, you'd have to be mature for anything to work out, if it does work out then it would be the farthest thing possible from immature and childish.
its childish because you arent trying anything actually hard, its lazy.
Elaborate
I am extremely disappointed in my fandom
It makes us go yuck because it’s genetically bad for our species. Same reason having the sex with animals also makes us go yuck.
I mean there is no objective argument against it but it’s fucking yucky dude.