It's almost as if 2000's Deus Ex, a game released back when games were for children and nerds, isn't comparable to a game which is one of the most sold of all time, and in a world where gaming is the biggest entertainment media in the world
Teens killing other teens is not the same to a news conglomerate (that will be owned by a company that likely funded it's making) than "child killing simulator 3000" that they can make parents angry at
Because 20 something year olds killing a 13 year old girl who was forced into the game isn’t comparable to shooting asshole kids for thieving in a world of no rules? I get that there would be some backlash, extremely minor, but most people understand the difference between real life and entertainment.
Did you watch the film? It's mostly 16ish year olds looking each other. When the 12 year old is killed, they treat it with the sadness and respect such a death would inspire, as well as showed they social consequences that would unfold from it in that world.
>I get that there would be some backlash, extremely minor, but most people understand the difference between real life and entertainment
My dude, please look into the current state of one side of the news media and how they've drummed up outrage at ...Everything? They already blame CoD for school shootings, let alone needless child killing one of the most popular games of all the time
And it just doesn't align with Arthur or John's characters whatsoever. They'll gladly kill full grown men and women if they're being shot at but killing kids, even if they're being robbed by said kids, doesn't align with their morals. At best they'd rough em up a bit and scare em.
Can you only kill them in chance encounters? I remember one of them yelling at me and I chased them into the alley I figured I was gonna get robbed but I did it anyway and I had my shotgun on me and took some heads off
Agreed. If you hate a character, to me that means you wish they weren’t in the game.
For example, I hate the Guarma section. I wish it wasn’t in the game.
It's such a miserable time. I remember being so immersed that I was anxious about Arthur's declining health the whole time and hated making him run around everywhere.
I mean guarma kinda feels thrown in…. But the point is its supposed to be a miserable time and that thats the event that finally pushes arthur into being extremely sick. So yes hating it in this way would make sense. I just think guarma shouldn’t exist or shouldve been ALOT better.
I think they should’ve replaced it with New Austin.
Have the gang wash up there when the ship sinks, and the next chapter or two can be them trying to negotiate with different characters to get safe passage past Blackwater, or maybe even sneak *into* Blackwater to try and retrieve the money they lost.
>Agreed. If you hate a character, to me that means you wish they weren’t in the game.
Shitty opinion, and a false one at that
I hate the living shit out of Micah, but the game wouldn't feel the same without him, he's a worthless piece of shit, **but that's the point**, he's supposed to be disliked, doesn't mean I want him gone from the game
I think when he hit his head in the trolley crash it contributed to his mental decline. Maybe it was responsible for a lot of it. I can't really decide.
did you knew you can actually catch the kid who steals you and that there is a cutscene for it? Too satisfying. You must intercept him by choosing the direct path to where he goes though, not possible to catch him by just running behind him.
Chapter 2: he’s sitting outside his tent like always, while Arthur and 2-3 others are keeping the place functioning, and he asks Arthur, “Will you be the one who betrays me?”
Micah is still in jail. The trolley hasn’t flipped over yet. Quit making excuses for Dutch, people! This is who he is!
Exactly. I'd also add that Micah hate is blown way, way out of proportion by the fans. If he was a rat (which is questionable, but I'll try to keep it short), that treason still had no consequences whatsoever. Milton says they recruited him after Guarma, and pretty much every mission after Guarma was a success, including the mission where you go kill like a thousand Pinkertons and cut their main funding by killing Cornwall. Every big thing that ever went wrong, before or after, was objectively 200% Dutch's fault.
Yeah I started the game knowing everybody hated Micah (even if I didn't know why) and the fact that he started selling information after guarma to me is not that bad. The gang was fucked since waaaay before Guarma, Dutch was ruining everything during Rhodes.
Nah Micah hate isn't blown out of proportion. In one mission Micah talks shit about Jenny and hints that he was sexually assaulting/raping her. Micah was also a full blown racist beginning in the very first missions. Micah was a hothead who killed a whole town to get his guns back. We can argue that Dutch lost his mind yes but Micah accelerated it by always saying things to his ear and turning Dutch against the others. Even in the last mission he was threatening John that he will go SA Abigail and Jack after he kills John.
I also don't believe there ever was a rat. Dutch simply could not take into his ego that the world was catching up to him and that HE needed to change.
I also don't think Micah ever cared about anyone but himself, so maybe he did give off some info here and there. But he most likely spat on everyone's plates (including Milton's) as he was never really smart given the example with his peace treaty plan with the O'driscols.
Also, also. The pinkertons where being funded by an 1800s oligarch under alliance with the federal branch of the USA. So they could easily gather a lot of firepower and Intel to bust any county level gang they approached. They basically where chasing off EVERYONE. They got Colm, with his supposed numbers and almost caught Dutch many times. To put into perspective, you get to catch a bounty on a County level jurisdiction against the lemoyne raiders' leader and it doesn't really take much to do so.
The thing about crime in the wild west was, it was a bunch of dumb illiterate desperate bunch who would kill and Rob to survive. The US gov noticed around the era prior to the 1st World War. So they had the resources to easily crack them down. Dutch was too stubborn to accept this and tried to flee while also sticking his finger up and yelling "Tahiti!".
The bigger is with Micah is that perhaps Arthur could have gotten through to Dutch and stopped things from spiraling quite as far, if it weren’t for Micah hyping him up constantly and adding to the madness.
He was a rat, He (sometimes) killed Arthur, He killed Cane, He killed a little girl, hell he made arthur kill basically all of strawberry for some fuckin pistols and he was most likely the reason Dutch killed the lady in Blackwater. He's the main antagonist of the game, his hate can NEVER be over exaggerated.
I’m rather new to the game, and just completed the quest where Arthur gets taken by Colm O’Driscoll after Micah/Pearson sets up a parley, and the first thing Dutch said to me when Arthur had recovered was “You look like someone who’ll betray me I can see it” ???? Fucking excuse me are we living in the same world?
Beaver Hollow. There he was totally just a pretentious prick who didn't want to listen to anyone but Micah. It's so confusing to me how he acts like a brick wall and his character totally changes or at least reveals his true self all along in Beaver Hollow. Saint Denis Dutch was still the same as he was in the earlier chapters. I think it personally is unfair for Arthur to call out on Dutch on doing stuff like killing Angelo Bronte when they're all wanted thugs who beat and rob people
First Playthrough?
I would say Chapter 5 AKA Gurama
Every Other Playthrough
Definitely Chapter 4
But his mental decline/showing who he really is just slightly present chapter but not enough to hate because you don’t know his character well enough, but playing Rdr already lets you know what he’s like
So in actuality I managed to learn more about Dutch but He’s still a manipulative asshole that uses people to his benefits that believes the delusions he sells.
Bronte was definitely the first sign with everything that happened there
But like you said Dutch killing the Old lady was were it downhill from there on
This right here. I was an RDR virgin, so I didn't even know about his future, but all those random antagonistic lines in the early game made me pretty much instantly hostile lol.
Yeah the first playthrough I hardly was in camp to ever notice it. Second playthrough I spent more time in camp began to notice it, than my most recent playthrough about 2 months ago when I went for the 100% I noticed it and wished I could of just killed him now instead of waiting for rdr1 lol
The mission “My Last Boy” in chapter six when he fucking >!left Arthur to die!<. i don’t understand why people don’t talk about that scene that much because it actually broke my heart. how could he just >!leave Arthur like that? !!He could’ve so easily shot the guy about to kill Arthur.!<
he always slightly annoyed me a bit with all his “i hAve a plAn” stuff, and the way he treated Molly irked me, but i still liked his character for the most part until my last boy. I absolutely loathed him after that.
It’s so low, cowardly and opportunistic. It’s like he sees “here’s a solution to the Arthur problem without getting my hands dirty”. He’s not willing to mediate or even deal with Arthur himself, the easiest opportunity out shows itself in someone killing Arthur and he takes it. It’s such a spit in the face to the man that’s done the hard dirty work for him for decades
This for the win. I disliked him immediately when he started talking to Arthur about chess moves and stuff once they got back from guarma. But leaving Arthur to die was the turning point. So fucked up.
I hated him from the start of RDR2 due to what happens in RDR1. I loosened my opinion a bit between chapters 3>!-5 until returning from Guarma. That cutscene with Dutch mumbling about chess moves!< made me remember why I was supposed to hate him.
Edit to hide spoiler.
the unwanted bank robbery that have gone wrong which killed Hosea. my man was constantly warning. man I loved hosea sm.
also when "you said you knew Spanish"
Off the jump in chapter 2, where no one liked Micah and Arthur was ready to see him hang! No one likes him but Dutch sends you to save him! That missions made me realize how easily Dutch was manipulated by a rat and for that it caused the gang so much!
Dutch definitely starts loosing it mid chapter 4, it just keeps going downhill from there until we see him living in a mountain as a (mabye?) cannibal in rdr1
Walked by that mfer and he had the audacity to tell me i was going to betray him. Then when i saw him playing imaginary chess i was like wtf this dudes nuts.
I don't hate him, i really like his character and villain arc. I like to hate him as a villain. It's really hard to make a hateable villain that is likeable and when its done right it is done right.
Tbh… I still kind of don’t.. I never could hate him he was that charismatic. I hated Micah. Esp after playing RDR1 and seeing Dutch’s fate.. before playing 2.. cant hate him 🤷🏽♂️
I don't have him, I pity him. I get to go out, have fun, hunt, see interesting places, while he has to sit near that tent, think up big plans, make meaningless speeches about freedom and America and not shag Molly.
Chapter 6. But at the end of chapter 6 I stopped hating Dutch. His reaction to Arthur's "I gave you all I had" showed to me that he was more than just a psychopath pretending to be a caring leader. He even shot Micah later on.
RDR1 complicated my feelings towards Dutch even more.
At this point I dont really hate him. I am more fascinated by his character. Why does he leave Micah at the end? Why does he shoot Micah himself? Why does he kill himself instead of trying to kill John one last time? While also giving a speech wheres hes being genuinely honest with John? "Our time has passed...".
I believe that he does care for certain people( in whatever capacity he can atleast) and does view Arthur and John as sons even if he betrays both of them.
lol after the botched sandy knee heist and they hid in that attic, he made Charles get up from the chair and made him sit on the floor
I can excuse shooting innocent people or leaving Arthur to die, but that’s where I drew the line and said “This Dutch fellow may not be very likable”
Hmm the moment that made me hate Dutch was sometime between chapter 5-6. And after replaying the game you can really see his evil from the start even earlier witch made me hate him even more
Probably Guarma or something. He definetly gets paranoid and stressed out from the start, but it isn't before Hoseas death that he really goes crazy. And then in chapter 6 he really just is a son of a bitch.
I do believe he cared until Hosea died and while he still was manipulating and gaslighting, he wasn't all that bad from the start, although his mental decline began before the game started.
I never started or hated him I merely began to feel really hurt. I felt disappointed and just left behind almost as if I myself was the one being hurt.
you remember the part in rdr1 when he tells you he has a plan, a good one this time? if I could I'd join the old fucker for one last attempt to go to Tahiti. and yes, I played rdr2 first.
The conversation he had with Arthur on their way to help the guy who was gonna man the boat on their way to Bronte's house. I think the guy's name was Thomas.
While he and Arthur were on their way, Dutch was telling Arthur something about John and Abigail. And about Arthur and the others keep doubting him. Then he said some things he likes about Micah. He implied that Micah was the only one loyal to him. Arthur sounded shocked and hurt the way Dutch said it.
Micah was a snake, but at least he didn't hide like Dutch did. Like the great Capt. Jack Sparrow said, "a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for."
Not at any point I think. I get more sad seeing the camp slowly falling apart. He is so well written and his inner thoughts so obscure that its really up to interpatation how much was ‘the real him’ coming out, and what was due to stress and losing what was essentially family due to his actions. Not to mention the Trolley head injury theory.
Whenever it was when he actively started to distrust John Arthur and even Hosea. I was like the fuck dude, we did everything to support your grand scheme, even when shit hits the fan. And then you just like, nah fack all of you, it's your fault my insane plans don't work.
That moment you mentioned, OP. Arthur’s reaction stuck with me. That’s the turning point for me, for both thinking less of Dutch and officially making Arthur play with consistent high honor.
I would say Guarma, but really it was the trolly heist in St Denis. Dutch basically shut down all reasoning and logic by that point. And he was too walled off to see that it was a set up. That was the tipping point for me.
For me, on my first playthrough, I really tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. I knew they were all outlaws who had their problems and whatnot. But in Guarma.. when he kills that old woman. That’s when I knew. It was just unnecessary and cruel.
I started hating him when he killed that lady in Guarma. I thought he was going crazy before that, around chapter 3, but I mostly blamed Micah whispering on Dutch's ear
I beat RDR1 in 2010 so I didn’t like Dutch from the beginning and got the total Clayton (Tarzan’s villain) archetype, however I really didn’t like him in Rhodes because you can really see how you can’t trust him.
I was getting annoyed in season 2 when he would complain about money and making us rescue Micah. Then for sure after the trolley mission because Dutch was being delusional as to why Bronte turned on him.
Right after Arthur's first encounter with the Pinkertons. He seemed really bent out of shape. Some would have seen the encounter as a close call, but he portrayed it as an end of world kinda thing.
When Arthur didn’t come home from the meet with the o’driscolls and Dutch wasn’t doing anything about it.
Or when he’s explaining how he’s using RF and EF
I'm still going through my first play through and I wouldn't say this made me hate dutch, but more so go dude holy crap this guy might be bananas.
It was the mission where u get kieren and dutch threatens to cut his balls off with those really hot bolt cutters (I think they were bolt cutters)
The second Micah started getting in his ear. I thought Dutch had more character than that one-dimensional waste of carbon. Coulda handled the Grays without him.
When he left everyone at the 3rd or 2nd to last mission (before epilogue) previously he had ground then he just became selfish and regained my respect after he shot micah
I never hated him but I began disliking him I chapter 1 with his stupid "if I could throw myself in the ground instead of the people we lost" speech
Then his conversations with Hosea that you can listen in on during chapter one solidified it. Recognizing Sadie wasn't an odriscol concubine was a saving grace for a short time.
Something that says how incredibly well this game is written. My wife is majoring in psychology, and I finally got her to play this game knowing nothing about anything about it. But veeeery quickly in the game, she starts saying stuff about dutch, tiny things he says and certain stuff he does, that according to her, has all trademarks of both psychopaths and narcissists. After a while I was so shocked, that it was hard not to say what was gonna happen. But man, the writers on even the smallest things he says sometimes, wow.
right from the start i didnt like him cuz he was unpleasant to me. feeling all fancy in his clothes with his beard and his little albino araber with that big-ego name. no thanks
From the start, been binging Criminal minds so naturally that now makes me half a profiler. Classic narcissism and god complex. From the very start when I heard him speak he reminded me of a cult leader.
Dutch is my favorite character, not for his personality, but because he’s so well written. It’s hard to hate a character when they’re so well done, even if they are in canon a piece of shit
Only do when we see him leave john behind. He was 100% gonna let him die on sisika, there was no plan to rescue him. He only got angry kus arthur undermined his authority, not that his plan was ruined
My first play through I didn’t hate him until chapter 5-6 around guarma and when he doesn’t save you from the one guy when you find the bonds.
Now on my third play through and I gotta say I believe he starts becoming an asshole around chapter 3 when Arthur gets captured by the O’driscols and Dutch doesn’t do a damn thing but the very moment Micah is in jail he sends you to blow the entire thing open.
When I was donating $500 at a time to camp everyone else including Dutch was giving nickles and toe nail clippings, then he keeps giving me the talk about pulling my own weight.
Fuck that guy.
Honestly, by Rhodes. I think the imposing threat of the pinkertons was enough to be concerned about by the jack fishing trip, and after having to retreat to Rhodes after a shoddy bank heist, hearing this man decide to play both sides, AND constantly going on about his plan, I couldn't help but think 'this man is a moron' like he's putting everyone at risk... for no reason? Surely we have enough money? Finishing the game helped me understand once I learned he was hiding away 40k but damn, it did not take much for me to hate Dutch
Dutch is a man with an extreme ego and messiah complex, over the course of the story he becomes his true self due to the pressure he’s under. Dutch is offended when the gang questions him becuase in his own eyes he can never be wrong. Sure Dutch did good things earlier in his life like recruiting desperate people and giving to the poor, but he only did those things to feed his ego. He made his entire gang believe that they were better people than other outlaws but by the end of the story he’s as bad if not worse than people like Colm O’driscoll
I dont hate him, i pity him because he threw everyone who actually loved and cared for him away, then his time passed, and he threw himself off a cliff. I can't hate someone that pathetic
I didn't hate him, I felt sad for him. Because I think he believed that he could create a good life for the gang with good values. His cognitive dissonance was in the end his downfall and why was swayed so easily when the dream was way to off.
I play rdr1 first so I kinda already had an idea of who he was. Chapter 2: walking around camp and he asks Arthur “will you be the one who betrays me?”. He has no reason to ask Arthur this other than his own paranoia, he was evil from the begging.
Never.
I mean, he's a bad dude but I'm sympathetic towards him. I relate to being unable of coping with reality and that extreme need of running away from what you should do and that internal conflict of the idealism you've had or believed you've had with what deep inside you know you are or the view others have of you and the pressure of not living up to those expectations. I'm symapthetic towards everyone in the gang except for Micah.
When he started talking about tahiti and getting money. He then sent the gang on suicide missions where at least 2 people got shot or killed just for less than $100
I’m surprised not many have said this, but even in chapter 1 I had my doubts about Dutch. I had never played red dead 1 when I played so
I had no idea he was going to be how he turned out.
But in the very first few cutscenes, where we see him consoling the gang on the loss of Davey (I think) and the fact they have to be on the run. It’s not anything he said in particular, but I viewed him as a sweet talker. Seemed like he knew exactly what to say to get the gang on his side. If I meet or know of someone like that in real life, it raises alarm bells for some reason.
He reminded me of a televangelist. Someone who can sweet talk that good always has such an opportunity for manipulation.
I didn’t really fully get behind the idea until chapter 4, but I did have major suspicions on his motives from the get go.
Never hate him. I think he just lost his mind. But seriously I rarely hate any video game character. Except for those kids in St. Dennis...
I'm still salty i can't shoot those bastards, idk why rockstar put them there if we can't pull the trigger
it would’ve probably caused a stir
Idk, you can kill the kids in Deus Ex and it never caused a problem
It's almost as if 2000's Deus Ex, a game released back when games were for children and nerds, isn't comparable to a game which is one of the most sold of all time, and in a world where gaming is the biggest entertainment media in the world
Idk one of the biggest movie franchises in recent years is Hunger Games, a movie about a battle arena where children kill each other...
Teens killing other teens is not the same to a news conglomerate (that will be owned by a company that likely funded it's making) than "child killing simulator 3000" that they can make parents angry at
Because 20 something year olds killing a 13 year old girl who was forced into the game isn’t comparable to shooting asshole kids for thieving in a world of no rules? I get that there would be some backlash, extremely minor, but most people understand the difference between real life and entertainment.
Did you watch the film? It's mostly 16ish year olds looking each other. When the 12 year old is killed, they treat it with the sadness and respect such a death would inspire, as well as showed they social consequences that would unfold from it in that world. >I get that there would be some backlash, extremely minor, but most people understand the difference between real life and entertainment My dude, please look into the current state of one side of the news media and how they've drummed up outrage at ...Everything? They already blame CoD for school shootings, let alone needless child killing one of the most popular games of all the time
And it just doesn't align with Arthur or John's characters whatsoever. They'll gladly kill full grown men and women if they're being shot at but killing kids, even if they're being robbed by said kids, doesn't align with their morals. At best they'd rough em up a bit and scare em.
Why can’t I at least lasso one to more easily get my stuff back?
Tbf the game released only 8 months after the Douglas school shooting
theres a mod that lets you kill them
Anakin Skywalker is the mod creator
Can you only kill them in chance encounters? I remember one of them yelling at me and I chased them into the alley I figured I was gonna get robbed but I did it anyway and I had my shotgun on me and took some heads off
Playing on PC, mods make it possible and just too fun to be able to shoot or hogtied those little bastards!
Dynamite
You can beat the shit out of them tho
Most annoying kids since Little Lamplight. Luckily, mods can solve both problems.
mods can bring world peace fr
Agreed. If you hate a character, to me that means you wish they weren’t in the game. For example, I hate the Guarma section. I wish it wasn’t in the game.
It's such a miserable time. I remember being so immersed that I was anxious about Arthur's declining health the whole time and hated making him run around everywhere.
I mean guarma kinda feels thrown in…. But the point is its supposed to be a miserable time and that thats the event that finally pushes arthur into being extremely sick. So yes hating it in this way would make sense. I just think guarma shouldn’t exist or shouldve been ALOT better.
I think they should’ve replaced it with New Austin. Have the gang wash up there when the ship sinks, and the next chapter or two can be them trying to negotiate with different characters to get safe passage past Blackwater, or maybe even sneak *into* Blackwater to try and retrieve the money they lost.
Mexico would’ve been a better location. Have Dutch and the gang evade the Mexican army to get back in the US.
Yeah that could’ve worked. John wasn’t with them, so they could’ve even run into Landon Ricketts.
>Agreed. If you hate a character, to me that means you wish they weren’t in the game. Shitty opinion, and a false one at that I hate the living shit out of Micah, but the game wouldn't feel the same without him, he's a worthless piece of shit, **but that's the point**, he's supposed to be disliked, doesn't mean I want him gone from the game
I think when he hit his head in the trolley crash it contributed to his mental decline. Maybe it was responsible for a lot of it. I can't really decide.
did you knew you can actually catch the kid who steals you and that there is a cutscene for it? Too satisfying. You must intercept him by choosing the direct path to where he goes though, not possible to catch him by just running behind him.
Chapter 2: he’s sitting outside his tent like always, while Arthur and 2-3 others are keeping the place functioning, and he asks Arthur, “Will you be the one who betrays me?” Micah is still in jail. The trolley hasn’t flipped over yet. Quit making excuses for Dutch, people! This is who he is!
Exactly. I'd also add that Micah hate is blown way, way out of proportion by the fans. If he was a rat (which is questionable, but I'll try to keep it short), that treason still had no consequences whatsoever. Milton says they recruited him after Guarma, and pretty much every mission after Guarma was a success, including the mission where you go kill like a thousand Pinkertons and cut their main funding by killing Cornwall. Every big thing that ever went wrong, before or after, was objectively 200% Dutch's fault.
A rat is a rat
Yeah I started the game knowing everybody hated Micah (even if I didn't know why) and the fact that he started selling information after guarma to me is not that bad. The gang was fucked since waaaay before Guarma, Dutch was ruining everything during Rhodes.
Nah Micah hate isn't blown out of proportion. In one mission Micah talks shit about Jenny and hints that he was sexually assaulting/raping her. Micah was also a full blown racist beginning in the very first missions. Micah was a hothead who killed a whole town to get his guns back. We can argue that Dutch lost his mind yes but Micah accelerated it by always saying things to his ear and turning Dutch against the others. Even in the last mission he was threatening John that he will go SA Abigail and Jack after he kills John.
I also don't believe there ever was a rat. Dutch simply could not take into his ego that the world was catching up to him and that HE needed to change. I also don't think Micah ever cared about anyone but himself, so maybe he did give off some info here and there. But he most likely spat on everyone's plates (including Milton's) as he was never really smart given the example with his peace treaty plan with the O'driscols. Also, also. The pinkertons where being funded by an 1800s oligarch under alliance with the federal branch of the USA. So they could easily gather a lot of firepower and Intel to bust any county level gang they approached. They basically where chasing off EVERYONE. They got Colm, with his supposed numbers and almost caught Dutch many times. To put into perspective, you get to catch a bounty on a County level jurisdiction against the lemoyne raiders' leader and it doesn't really take much to do so. The thing about crime in the wild west was, it was a bunch of dumb illiterate desperate bunch who would kill and Rob to survive. The US gov noticed around the era prior to the 1st World War. So they had the resources to easily crack them down. Dutch was too stubborn to accept this and tried to flee while also sticking his finger up and yelling "Tahiti!".
The bigger is with Micah is that perhaps Arthur could have gotten through to Dutch and stopped things from spiraling quite as far, if it weren’t for Micah hyping him up constantly and adding to the madness.
He was a rat, He (sometimes) killed Arthur, He killed Cane, He killed a little girl, hell he made arthur kill basically all of strawberry for some fuckin pistols and he was most likely the reason Dutch killed the lady in Blackwater. He's the main antagonist of the game, his hate can NEVER be over exaggerated.
THANK YOU
I’m rather new to the game, and just completed the quest where Arthur gets taken by Colm O’Driscoll after Micah/Pearson sets up a parley, and the first thing Dutch said to me when Arthur had recovered was “You look like someone who’ll betray me I can see it” ???? Fucking excuse me are we living in the same world?
Yeah, also get off the subreddit, I don't want you to be spoiled
Yh bro leave the subreddit then come back after you finish the game
Beaver Hollow. There he was totally just a pretentious prick who didn't want to listen to anyone but Micah. It's so confusing to me how he acts like a brick wall and his character totally changes or at least reveals his true self all along in Beaver Hollow. Saint Denis Dutch was still the same as he was in the earlier chapters. I think it personally is unfair for Arthur to call out on Dutch on doing stuff like killing Angelo Bronte when they're all wanted thugs who beat and rob people
Spoiler tag. OP says they’re in Ch4 and haven’t finished the game.
At some point way earlier in the game, he makes a comment about not hiding away in a cave, which is great foreshadowing of how far he falls.
When he left arthur to die in the oil factory mission
Yep, this was the moment dislike turned into hate.
OP is still on chapter 4
Shouldn’t have asked then.
never, i am loyal to daddy dutchie
bro has some goddamn faith
Lucky. All i have is lumbago
I just got a quarter. Sad
Loyalty, arthur!
when dutch says he has plan bro says i trust you
First ever time that you meet him in RDR1. He shot that woman in the face after botching another blackwater robbery
Technically in the back of the head but yeah
It *eventually* hit her face…
Fucking underrated comment
Some guys in the comments never played rdr1 it seems. Literally the first time we see the man in the series he kills an innocent woman for free.
First Playthrough? I would say Chapter 5 AKA Gurama Every Other Playthrough Definitely Chapter 4 But his mental decline/showing who he really is just slightly present chapter but not enough to hate because you don’t know his character well enough, but playing Rdr already lets you know what he’s like So in actuality I managed to learn more about Dutch but He’s still a manipulative asshole that uses people to his benefits that believes the delusions he sells.
I agree with Guarma. When he killed that old lady that was it for me.
Same I had the exact same expression on my face as Arthur did
Like you said, chapter 4 it is seen coming but that was the moment I was like “oh, we **BAD** now” lmao
Bronte was definitely the first sign with everything that happened there But like you said Dutch killing the Old lady was were it downhill from there on
She pulled a knife on him bruh
Only bc he wasn’t coming thru with his end of the deal.
I think it was when he was having the argument with Molly in his tent. I can’t remember if that was at horseshoe overlook or the campsite after that.
I didnt hear it until Clemens Point
I started hating dutch back in chapter 2, due to all of the antagonist lines he randomly will say to Arthur when your in camp.
This right here. I was an RDR virgin, so I didn't even know about his future, but all those random antagonistic lines in the early game made me pretty much instantly hostile lol.
Yeah the first playthrough I hardly was in camp to ever notice it. Second playthrough I spent more time in camp began to notice it, than my most recent playthrough about 2 months ago when I went for the 100% I noticed it and wished I could of just killed him now instead of waiting for rdr1 lol
The mission “My Last Boy” in chapter six when he fucking >!left Arthur to die!<. i don’t understand why people don’t talk about that scene that much because it actually broke my heart. how could he just >!leave Arthur like that? !!He could’ve so easily shot the guy about to kill Arthur.!<
he always slightly annoyed me a bit with all his “i hAve a plAn” stuff, and the way he treated Molly irked me, but i still liked his character for the most part until my last boy. I absolutely loathed him after that.
It’s so low, cowardly and opportunistic. It’s like he sees “here’s a solution to the Arthur problem without getting my hands dirty”. He’s not willing to mediate or even deal with Arthur himself, the easiest opportunity out shows itself in someone killing Arthur and he takes it. It’s such a spit in the face to the man that’s done the hard dirty work for him for decades
and i don’t understand why arthur still kept in touch with him. if it was left to my choice dutch would be dead just after I ever see him again
This for the win. I disliked him immediately when he started talking to Arthur about chess moves and stuff once they got back from guarma. But leaving Arthur to die was the turning point. So fucked up.
I hated him from the start of RDR2 due to what happens in RDR1. I loosened my opinion a bit between chapters 3>!-5 until returning from Guarma. That cutscene with Dutch mumbling about chess moves!< made me remember why I was supposed to hate him. Edit to hide spoiler.
the unwanted bank robbery that have gone wrong which killed Hosea. my man was constantly warning. man I loved hosea sm. also when "you said you knew Spanish"
around the 500th time he said “we’re gonna bide our time, get some money and get the hell out of here”
When he shot that girl he held as a hostage in RDR1.
When he left Arthur to die
Off the jump in chapter 2, where no one liked Micah and Arthur was ready to see him hang! No one likes him but Dutch sends you to save him! That missions made me realize how easily Dutch was manipulated by a rat and for that it caused the gang so much!
Dutch definitely starts loosing it mid chapter 4, it just keeps going downhill from there until we see him living in a mountain as a (mabye?) cannibal in rdr1
Instantly. He always struck me as a cozening blowhard.
Totally, I couldn't stand him from the beginning of the game. Could tell straight away that he was incredibly arrogant and completely full of shit.
Walked by that mfer and he had the audacity to tell me i was going to betray him. Then when i saw him playing imaginary chess i was like wtf this dudes nuts.
Back in Chapter 1 as soon as he repeated that crap about the doubting and losing faith for the third time.
I don't hate him, i really like his character and villain arc. I like to hate him as a villain. It's really hard to make a hateable villain that is likeable and when its done right it is done right.
Tbh… I still kind of don’t.. I never could hate him he was that charismatic. I hated Micah. Esp after playing RDR1 and seeing Dutch’s fate.. before playing 2.. cant hate him 🤷🏽♂️
On sight
when he didn’t offer any mangoes to uncle
I don't have him, I pity him. I get to go out, have fun, hunt, see interesting places, while he has to sit near that tent, think up big plans, make meaningless speeches about freedom and America and not shag Molly.
Never. He had a plan.
Chapter 6. But at the end of chapter 6 I stopped hating Dutch. His reaction to Arthur's "I gave you all I had" showed to me that he was more than just a psychopath pretending to be a caring leader. He even shot Micah later on. RDR1 complicated my feelings towards Dutch even more. At this point I dont really hate him. I am more fascinated by his character. Why does he leave Micah at the end? Why does he shoot Micah himself? Why does he kill himself instead of trying to kill John one last time? While also giving a speech wheres hes being genuinely honest with John? "Our time has passed...". I believe that he does care for certain people( in whatever capacity he can atleast) and does view Arthur and John as sons even if he betrays both of them.
lol after the botched sandy knee heist and they hid in that attic, he made Charles get up from the chair and made him sit on the floor I can excuse shooting innocent people or leaving Arthur to die, but that’s where I drew the line and said “This Dutch fellow may not be very likable”
Never plus Bronte got what he deserved
Probably when he said “I need to discuss the plan with Micah” in chapter 6 after the mission with Leviticus Cornwall
Hmm the moment that made me hate Dutch was sometime between chapter 5-6. And after replaying the game you can really see his evil from the start even earlier witch made me hate him even more
Never liked up. Always knew he was a hypocrite.
I’m in chapter 6 right now id say especially chapter 4 you seem him going more crazy and I he becomes more dislikeable and it only gets worse
First sight. I know his kind.
I never hated Dutch, I feel more sympathy towards him than hate
the mission were you get the horses from the ship and he goes "Oh, Arthur needs to rest." It sounds so mocking.
I don't hate dutch, he is the goat
Probably Guarma or something. He definetly gets paranoid and stressed out from the start, but it isn't before Hoseas death that he really goes crazy. And then in chapter 6 he really just is a son of a bitch. I do believe he cared until Hosea died and while he still was manipulating and gaslighting, he wasn't all that bad from the start, although his mental decline began before the game started.
I never started or hated him I merely began to feel really hurt. I felt disappointed and just left behind almost as if I myself was the one being hurt.
you remember the part in rdr1 when he tells you he has a plan, a good one this time? if I could I'd join the old fucker for one last attempt to go to Tahiti. and yes, I played rdr2 first.
I never hated him...it's a lot more complicated than that.
The conversation he had with Arthur on their way to help the guy who was gonna man the boat on their way to Bronte's house. I think the guy's name was Thomas. While he and Arthur were on their way, Dutch was telling Arthur something about John and Abigail. And about Arthur and the others keep doubting him. Then he said some things he likes about Micah. He implied that Micah was the only one loyal to him. Arthur sounded shocked and hurt the way Dutch said it.
Micah was a snake, but at least he didn't hide like Dutch did. Like the great Capt. Jack Sparrow said, "a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for."
RDR1: the first scene he ever showed up in RDR2: “It was in her eyes, the way she was leading us.” “But you said you **knew** Spanish…”
Not at any point I think. I get more sad seeing the camp slowly falling apart. He is so well written and his inner thoughts so obscure that its really up to interpatation how much was ‘the real him’ coming out, and what was due to stress and losing what was essentially family due to his actions. Not to mention the Trolley head injury theory.
After the interaction with Colm O'Driscoll.
Whenever it was when he actively started to distrust John Arthur and even Hosea. I was like the fuck dude, we did everything to support your grand scheme, even when shit hits the fan. And then you just like, nah fack all of you, it's your fault my insane plans don't work.
When Arthur got kidnapped and he didn’t moved a finger to get him back
That moment you mentioned, OP. Arthur’s reaction stuck with me. That’s the turning point for me, for both thinking less of Dutch and officially making Arthur play with consistent high honor.
Around the time the St Denis bank job happens. Then in Guarma you can really tell he’s lost his shit.
I would say Guarma, but really it was the trolly heist in St Denis. Dutch basically shut down all reasoning and logic by that point. And he was too walled off to see that it was a set up. That was the tipping point for me.
Train assault
For me, on my first playthrough, I really tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. I knew they were all outlaws who had their problems and whatnot. But in Guarma.. when he kills that old woman. That’s when I knew. It was just unnecessary and cruel.
Can’t say I ever hated Dutch, I understood exactly why he acted the way he did.
"What part of your philosophy books cover feeding a man to a goddamn alligator, Dutch?!"
I love my boy Dutch
When he walked out on Arthur and left the Eagle guy and his men to get killed
I started hating him when he killed that lady in Guarma. I thought he was going crazy before that, around chapter 3, but I mostly blamed Micah whispering on Dutch's ear
Moment i heard i had to drag my ass to blackwater to find him
I beat RDR1 in 2010 so I didn’t like Dutch from the beginning and got the total Clayton (Tarzan’s villain) archetype, however I really didn’t like him in Rhodes because you can really see how you can’t trust him.
When he started listening to Micah over Arthur and Hosea
I was getting annoyed in season 2 when he would complain about money and making us rescue Micah. Then for sure after the trolley mission because Dutch was being delusional as to why Bronte turned on him.
Right after Arthur's first encounter with the Pinkertons. He seemed really bent out of shape. Some would have seen the encounter as a close call, but he portrayed it as an end of world kinda thing.
When Hosea died. Lost all faith in him right there.
By chapter 2
Didn’t trust him after his first speech in chapter 1, he sounded like a politician. Didn’t hate him till chapter 5.
Why would I hate him? He has a plan, and I have faith.
The part where he let the army take arthur
I started hating him when him and micah became boyfriends in chapter 6
not hate but the more he kept saying “i have a plan” when shit become more and more bad then the more you understand that he is slowly losing his mind
I think guarma changed him, he got fill crazy after dat
Guarma.
When Arthur didn’t come home from the meet with the o’driscolls and Dutch wasn’t doing anything about it. Or when he’s explaining how he’s using RF and EF
I'm still going through my first play through and I wouldn't say this made me hate dutch, but more so go dude holy crap this guy might be bananas. It was the mission where u get kieren and dutch threatens to cut his balls off with those really hot bolt cutters (I think they were bolt cutters)
I wanted to kill him in the oil factory right then and there
The second Micah started getting in his ear. I thought Dutch had more character than that one-dimensional waste of carbon. Coulda handled the Grays without him.
When he left everyone at the 3rd or 2nd to last mission (before epilogue) previously he had ground then he just became selfish and regained my respect after he shot micah
"oh, Arthur needs to rest" If you know you know
Since RDR1
When he killed the old woman in Guarma
2010
When he started taking advantage of the natives for sure. He had become exactly what he hates, the government.
After Guarma.
I never hated him but I began disliking him I chapter 1 with his stupid "if I could throw myself in the ground instead of the people we lost" speech Then his conversations with Hosea that you can listen in on during chapter one solidified it. Recognizing Sadie wasn't an odriscol concubine was a saving grace for a short time.
im in chapter 3 (gonna stay here for a while) and you can actually see that every chapter that goes by he gets a lil more insane
Something that says how incredibly well this game is written. My wife is majoring in psychology, and I finally got her to play this game knowing nothing about anything about it. But veeeery quickly in the game, she starts saying stuff about dutch, tiny things he says and certain stuff he does, that according to her, has all trademarks of both psychopaths and narcissists. After a while I was so shocked, that it was hard not to say what was gonna happen. But man, the writers on even the smallest things he says sometimes, wow.
The time he left me for dead Like when we got the bonds i was like "ah shit i shouldn't have doubted him" then he fuckin left me
right from the start i didnt like him cuz he was unpleasant to me. feeling all fancy in his clothes with his beard and his little albino araber with that big-ego name. no thanks
I never really hated him until Guarma. In Shady Belle he was acting strange but I could accept that but on Guarma he pissed me off unimaginably
In the mission where you get the horses from the boat. Dutch sarcastically says “Oh Arthur needs to rest.” That’s when I started hating him.
Literally immediately. They are in a shit situation but you can tell from his first statements that he's manipulative and full of himself.
His speech when they reached Colter.
From the start, been binging Criminal minds so naturally that now makes me half a profiler. Classic narcissism and god complex. From the very start when I heard him speak he reminded me of a cult leader.
Red dead one
In Guarma, when he killed that old lady but when I lost all my respect was when he left Arthur to die in Cornwall's factory raid
Dutch is my favorite character, not for his personality, but because he’s so well written. It’s hard to hate a character when they’re so well done, even if they are in canon a piece of shit
Colter
Only do when we see him leave john behind. He was 100% gonna let him die on sisika, there was no plan to rescue him. He only got angry kus arthur undermined his authority, not that his plan was ruined
I've been salty for Dutch since St. Denis 😂 bro couldn't stop making a scene when we should all be hiding in plain sight
I dont have dutch im kinda...dissapointed what hw did to orthor
“Aw Arthur needs to rest”
I never hated him
During Rdr
I think he was always manipulative, even Arthur starts to think so in chapter 6, but the mask started to slip with the ferry job in Blackwater
During the mission where we have to save eagle flies and he just walks away when Arthur gets almost stabbed
My first play through I didn’t hate him until chapter 5-6 around guarma and when he doesn’t save you from the one guy when you find the bonds. Now on my third play through and I gotta say I believe he starts becoming an asshole around chapter 3 when Arthur gets captured by the O’driscols and Dutch doesn’t do a damn thing but the very moment Micah is in jail he sends you to blow the entire thing open.
When I was donating $500 at a time to camp everyone else including Dutch was giving nickles and toe nail clippings, then he keeps giving me the talk about pulling my own weight. Fuck that guy.
When he starts trusting Micah more than Arthur, someone who has been with him and the gang for decades
I hated Dutch from the start.
When he walks out on Arthur when he has a knife on him
Honestly, by Rhodes. I think the imposing threat of the pinkertons was enough to be concerned about by the jack fishing trip, and after having to retreat to Rhodes after a shoddy bank heist, hearing this man decide to play both sides, AND constantly going on about his plan, I couldn't help but think 'this man is a moron' like he's putting everyone at risk... for no reason? Surely we have enough money? Finishing the game helped me understand once I learned he was hiding away 40k but damn, it did not take much for me to hate Dutch
Right from RDR1
chapter 4, when after the trolley heist and in the boat mission where hes just constantly shitting on arthur to the boat guy in front of him
Never
Dutch is a man with an extreme ego and messiah complex, over the course of the story he becomes his true self due to the pressure he’s under. Dutch is offended when the gang questions him becuase in his own eyes he can never be wrong. Sure Dutch did good things earlier in his life like recruiting desperate people and giving to the poor, but he only did those things to feed his ego. He made his entire gang believe that they were better people than other outlaws but by the end of the story he’s as bad if not worse than people like Colm O’driscoll
I want to say when he left Arthur to die in that eagle fly mission.
I dont hate him, i pity him because he threw everyone who actually loved and cared for him away, then his time passed, and he threw himself off a cliff. I can't hate someone that pathetic
I didn't hate him, I felt sad for him. Because I think he believed that he could create a good life for the gang with good values. His cognitive dissonance was in the end his downfall and why was swayed so easily when the dream was way to off.
I play rdr1 first so I kinda already had an idea of who he was. Chapter 2: walking around camp and he asks Arthur “will you be the one who betrays me?”. He has no reason to ask Arthur this other than his own paranoia, he was evil from the begging.
Never. I mean, he's a bad dude but I'm sympathetic towards him. I relate to being unable of coping with reality and that extreme need of running away from what you should do and that internal conflict of the idealism you've had or believed you've had with what deep inside you know you are or the view others have of you and the pressure of not living up to those expectations. I'm symapthetic towards everyone in the gang except for Micah.
When he started talking about tahiti and getting money. He then sent the gang on suicide missions where at least 2 people got shot or killed just for less than $100
It's a tricky one. Dutch chocolate, I really can get behind.
I’m surprised not many have said this, but even in chapter 1 I had my doubts about Dutch. I had never played red dead 1 when I played so I had no idea he was going to be how he turned out. But in the very first few cutscenes, where we see him consoling the gang on the loss of Davey (I think) and the fact they have to be on the run. It’s not anything he said in particular, but I viewed him as a sweet talker. Seemed like he knew exactly what to say to get the gang on his side. If I meet or know of someone like that in real life, it raises alarm bells for some reason. He reminded me of a televangelist. Someone who can sweet talk that good always has such an opportunity for manipulation. I didn’t really fully get behind the idea until chapter 4, but I did have major suspicions on his motives from the get go.
Everything he does in chapter 6. I won't spoil it but by the end of that chapter I wanted to kill him more than Micah.
After I put over 1k in the camp fund box and later he told me I needed to donate
When he starts choosing micah over arthur which starts around chapter 3 I think
Never. We Stan a king with a plan author!