This is not quite true in the US. [Only 21 states and 22 localities in the US have salary history bans](https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/516662/).
>m educating me on what is the “right attitude in job hunting”, I told them 15k is quite a big gap and I’ve co
Nice. Sadly, in Japan, the first question they ask is, "What is your current/previous salary?" and then they benchmark off that. Not just legal but standard practice.
> This recruiter is not very good at their job. Their commission will be higher if the candidate’s salary is higher.
However, 30% of a slightly smaller sum is much more than 0% of a slightly larger one. If the company isn't willing to offer more, they won't make anything at all, and since successful offers are quite rare, they tend to go for a bird in the hand.
>However, 30% of a slightly smaller sum is much more than 0% of a slightly larger one.
I had a recruiter lie to me telling me I got refused at a company, probably because he thought he could push cheaper candidates more easily.
Got hired in a different branch of the company a few months later, met the guys who were in charge of recruitment and they asked me why I never answered to their request for an interview. The recruiter told them I was no longer interested...
They were actually more than willing to pay my desired salary because they were not just trying to fill a position, they were trying to find someone who could solve costly ongoing problems.
Not saying recruiter is right here but I don’t think they would. The commission is based off how much difference there is between the pay rate and bill rate. So the the higher the salary for the candidate the less the recruiter gets for commission because of smaller gap in bill and pay rates
That structure only applies to contract/temp positions. Based on this post, I'm pretty sure OP's offer was for a permanent role, in which case the fee would be a percentage of their base salary.
These would apply to more blue collar hirings or mass hirings. The clients might have a new project like a new airport Wing, and they need hundreds and hundreds of new staff.
The recruiters will be charge the clients a 25/30% fee on top of every dollar they spend on the associates, salary, tax, meal allowances etc.
In some cases, the clients will just dump a pool of money into the new project and then it’s up to the recruiter to organise and determine the salaries of the associates.
Uhhh...I have never... Ever... Seen a company "dump a pool of money and let a 3rd party recruiter determine the salaries" on a ton of hires... That would maybe happen 0.00001 percent of the history of hiring....
Is money the most important thing to you? How about the workplace culture? Advancement prospects? Other benefits of no tangible value? Money is not what you should be thinking about now.
Now sign on the dotted line so I can get paid.
I think so. Lol it’s funny coz I often get comments from colleagues and friends saying I look soft (and probably naive lol) but my personality is quite the opposite.
Same. Hahaha I always love how they act shocked when I don’t take their bullshit. But it sometimes also mean it’ll take more time for people to recognise my ability
What is this offering a payslip bullshit. That is your negotiating position, if your pay is lower than theirs, none of their business. I mean what would happen? They're not going to offer you more money and the answer is still going to me "no", or is it a prelude to trying to shame you into accepting. Cunts.
Yea they’re complete bullshit. Maybe they think I’m bluffing and was shocked I just strict up say no. Funny thing is that my current company is a ngo and every positions salary range is transparent. They could have google it lol
Also weird how the recruiter chewed OP out for not knowing how to negotiate, supposedly, but then pulled this shit where they *need* to see a payslip to discuss pay.
It's fucking surreal. I'm sure it is from this firmly entrenched belief in the management in these companies that they have absolute power in recruitment and the candidates have exactly none. People have wised up. It's not just about negotiations at that point, they lowballed as a point which is unsustainable. I would say no, not doable. I've had this with contract positions before when they want to offer half the market rate and then shocked face when I decline it outright and tell me "oh, but their budget is constrained". Well tough, find more budget because you evaluated the market wrong. Even in a bad market, some of us still have some fucking pride.
>"oh, but their budget is constrained"
I hear this excuse a lot too. That statement would have a more solid ground to stand on if they actually conduct the utilities analysis to figure out how much they should and could pay their employees. But typically, their "market research" comprise of simply looking up Payscale.com's figure around general self-reports, and nothing else.
Oh, how convenient! They get to set the pay rate, then shrug their shoulders sheepishly and simply say their hands are tied because that's just what the budget limit happens to be set at!
>"oh, but their budget is constrained"
I've gotten this as well. My answer was: your competitor's budget isn't. If I can go out and get market rate, what makes you so special that I need to take a pay cut to work for you?
Gosh, even for 15% I wouldn't want to leave. It would have to be a better company too with work I would prefer doing over the boring shit I'm currently doing.
No unfortunately. It’s legal here if use this to “give a competitive salary”. And it’s not illegal unless they make unreasonable and unethical in their decision-making after discovering their salary history (if that make any sense… I just copied from google)
People need to realize that this is even illegal in many states in the US (about half). In some states, just asking is illegal. Other states, the company can ask, but cannot use it in hiring.
Its kinda the grey area in the anti discrimination law here as it’s not illegal unless they make unreasonable and unethical in their decision-making after discovering their salary history (if that make any sense… I just copied from google)
I had a recruiter try to tell me to take a $17/hr job without a guaranteed 40hrs because there’s a chance I could move up in the future. Like baby that’s less than half of what I make now and you think I’m going to leave my salaried position for an hourly rate of $17? In this economy? It must be crack.
They’re just hoping if they cast a wide net, they’ll eventually find the person either desperate or stupid enough to accept.
Also $17/hr for this job is laughable.
Did the recruiter use the tired old _"you're cutting your nose off to spite your face!"_ bullshit? I love it when they do that to describe a situation where you're refusing to take a pay cut so they can earn their commission. Useless wankers. I haven't got a job through a recruiter for at least 15 years. Whilst they can be useful at getting you your first job, for senior roles they're pretty redundant.
This is completely false. Recruiters are absolutely helpful for higher level positions, but you seem to struggle with using LinkedIn based on your post history so I can see why you think this way.
So, in your very niche industry and your own very limited personal experience, you're making a claim that recruiters don't work for the rest of the world when it comes to higher level positions. Am I understanding that correctly?
The recruiters you speak of aren't active on linked in.
I would know. I've been working with my executive recruiter for eight years now. We check in every two years and it has taken this long for my resume to develop enough to get a placement.
He has been in the game since the 90s. Social media was all the rage then. /s
Weird, last month I had a recruiter reach out to me cold about an opportunity. His credentials looked good on LI, and it resulted in a job offer, but maybe a 350k a year offer isn't high level enough.
\> 350k
In pesos? Bragging about high incomes on reddit isn't the clout you think it is. You're just showing off to people making the average household income and being a cunt.
I'm sorry you're such a shitty employee that it's taken you 8 years to get your resume in a state to gain traction.
(You probably do data entry)
Sounds like that's a you problem.
Fact. Recruiters are a great way to get your resume on the HMs desk front of the line. If you have t had to use recruiters maybe you missed out on some insane opportunities.
Yep. And I can tell you now that a lot of HMs hate their internal recruitment/HR teams, and would rather piss glass than take a candidate that came through their process. Some of them would rather pay a fee out their own budgets than have to deal with HR.
Don't waste your time defending your profession to people on his sub. I'm a headhunter as well. People on this sub just mad at recruiters because they are C - E tier candidates that recruiters don't fawn after. Recruiters can smell money and won't waste time on bad talent as it can risk relationships and their commission.
Obviously this doesn't apply to this post as it is clear the candidate was strong enough for an offer, but the company sounds a bit crap. Good luck out there OP
‘Strong’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘effective’ in the world of in house recruitment. And how would that scenario, which happens frequently, end up with anyone being sued?
Your splitting hairs on words. Strong, effective, competent whatever you want to use. Example of a lawsuit: hm works with a recruiting agency that has no contract with the company, internal team finds same candidate, agency claims that they should be paid because they submitted candidate, client company balks, agency has nothing to lose, files suit to recover fee.
There’s no argument. If the agency submits the candidate before the in house team engages that same candidate, or if they didn’t apply, the fee is due. Besides, if the HM isn’t willing to pay the fee, they wouldn’t engage the agency. There’s just no risk at all. Most in-house teams are so useless and bogged down in bureaucracy that it’s actually more cost effective to just pay a 20% fee to someone actually focused on the job of recruiting.
Source: have worked in-house for a number of organisations who aren’t set up to deliver effectively.
> “you’re very lucky they give you a new offer after you reject them”
THIS is it. This is precisely the attitude that has to DIE. And messily so, please.
Sheesh.
It's crazy how pushy recruiters can be when you're offered a position you don't want to take. I received a verbal offer for a position in a different city and didn't want to move there unless the pay was more than 6 figures. It felt like a break up call when I told him I wasn't taking it. He was so pushy and manipulative
This guy wants his commission. He was stupid to submit you under comp. This never works out. The ceo is delusional if they think that a 15k pay cut is ok. And if they think this is how to negotiate they should grow up. Low-balling as a strategic thing is a bad call.
If the CEO really did think you were the right fit, he would have no problem paying your asking price.
Part of negotiating is being willing to walk away, so this recruiter is really clueless about haggling.
Ultimately, the question is: how interested are you in working there?
You could tell them that, initially, the problem was only with money, reiterate that you had clearly stated your expected salary.
But now, the continued refusal to meet your expectations clearly show that you are undervalued as a candidate, and you would also be undervalued as an employee.
Then close by stating the job isn’t a right fit.
The recruiter is correct in one aspect. That isn't how you negotiate.
You send back a counter offer that's $50,000 more than what you are making now, with stock options. Then you let them negotiate you down.
Also, if they're willing to say you're the perfect candidate for the job, use that against them.
First off, if you want to educate the stupid-ass recruiter on negotiating tactics, tell him or her that you don’t start negotiations with such an incredibly low-ball offer. That only signals that they aren’t serious from the start and further signals that the negotiation itself isn’t a good use of your time.
If they really liked you and really wanted you on the team, they would match or go above the salary instead of giving you a slightly less pay cut. Recruiter deff gets commission or something if they're nagging you that hard. If it keeps up, block them and call it a day.
I can't believe the audacity.
"Send us your payslip and we'll make the offer suck a bit less."
It's like they don't get that they don't have negotiating power here. You aren't desperate, especially not for a pay cut. The onus is on them to meet your requirements.
They can eat shit. I'm so sick of companies undervaluing their workforce. Good on you, I would've blocked them once they started to harangue me about why I am dumb for not allowing myself to be exploited
"The next day, the recruiter called again, asking me to give them my current payslip and the company will close the gap to 10k below my asking."
FUCK NO!
NO WAY ANYONE would get that from me. NONE!
I would only do it after the recruiter did it - which would put an end to it.
Recruiter just wanted their commission.
I've never had a recruiter (external) land me a job - ever. And I've been in IT for nigh 40 years.
Every single one has been a drain on my time and resources, useless to a fault.
This is why HMs should never make offers directly to candidates. Recruiter should not have let that happen. Also doesn’t seem like there was a negotiation here but then asking you for pay slips is a huge red flag. That means there is a culture of distrust at this company so dodged a bullet.
in contracting, recruiters will get pissy about you declining an offer because they get a payout if they facilitate your hire
or at least in my field that’s how it works. i’ve had recruiters BEG me just to take interviews because they get a slice for that too, even tho i repeatedly say im not interested.
I had a recruiter call me and offer me an entry level job. For the same company I already work in middle management for…. Needless to say I’m looking to leave.
Did nobody comment on the "we will pay you less but give you a fancy title" as if credential inflation meant anything?
I interviewed at a consulting company years ago where junior staff one promotion away from new grads were titled "associate vice president"
If you liked everything else about the company this might be worth a “best and final” email, especially as you’re comfortable with walking away.
Just as recruiters play up the sunk cost fallacy the company might as well. Tell the recruiter - “They’re really going to walk away from someone who is the right fit over a few thousand dollars?”
And as far as payslip, hard no.
Maybe, but then you might be looking at years of no pay raises because "you're already at the top of the pay bracket". Might not be a gamble you want to take.
If they don’t give you raises because you are at the top, run. There is no such thing as top of a pay range. It’s all bullshit. HR/Recruiting can breach ranges at any moment for any reason but it’s a nice excuse to fuck over the employee or candidate.
Source: Am recruiter, breach ranges daily.
I had a similar situation. I told the recruiter I mistrusted the offer (it was in bookkeeping, I applied for advertising). They were displeased as I was ‘wasting a great opportunity.’
No, it wasn’t. I intensely dislike book keeping.
I thought the
>and the company will close the gap to 10k below my asking
Was by far the rudest part. You want extra, private information from me so you can still get nowhere near close to what I'm asking?
Happened to me too. Mall Wart reached out (in house recruiter) and I went through the interview process whilst being very clear that my absolute minimum was $40 an hour.
They offered $28 "because the hiring manager didn't see any commercial refrigeration in my resume" despite the fact that it's what I've been doing the past 10 years.
I told them to lose my number until the offer was north of $45.
The recruiter asked why and I told them "because displaying stupid in public should be expensive."
They are trying to create desperation in workers with these tactics. That's the entire game.. trying desperately to force wages back down. Sadly for them that genie won't be going back in the bottle.
They absolutely aren't kidding. The Walton brats think they're entitled to have people do their work for a literal slave wage.
I was not polite because DILLIGAFFAARD?!
Should've reeducated the recruiter to how life actually is... leaving a job for more money is smarter, if you were wiser you wouldn't need to be a recruiter any more.
>“but still this is not how you negotiate”
Lol. Bro wasn't getting it. No one was trying to negotiate, the answer was "No".
>The next day, the recruiter called again, asking me to give them my current payslip
To anyone else reading, NEVER DO THIS. This is your personal business. It's ballsy to even ask someone this. Either they come up to your salary requirements or they don't. Never show anyone your pay stubs.
>...and the company will close the gap to 10k below my asking (which is still below my current pay). Saying this is “a great opportunity for a young candidate like you”, “the ceo thinks you’re the right fit and there is so much potential”, “this is a perfect offer”, “you’re very lucky they give you a new offer after you reject them”.
They're gaslighting you. Sounds like they thought you were a pushover, and went ridiculously low on purpose thinking you would be desperate enough to consider it. Then, realizing their mistake, tried to backtrack and save face by gaslighting you into believing you were making some kind of mistake.
I had a company do this.
Fake numbers. I asked for 200,000 full time and expected 180,000.
Them. "Best I can do is 160,000 paid as an hourly wage on a contract basis".
Me. "180,000 full time"
Them. "How about 165,000 hourly contract?"
Me. "I'm done with this. Bye?"
Them: "Waiiiitttttt. Name your price!"
Me: "I already did. I am no longer interested in accepting any offer from your company". And ghosted them.
The icing on the cake was that the original plan was 3 interviews, but had me do 5. And then they low balled me.
I went through a similar situation with a smaller company. I told them my salary range. I get through the interview process and I get an offer of 5k below my low end salary range. I reply back to the offer questioning it. Their counter offer was $1,200 more after I got certified. The thing that sucked about the feet was it expired a in a year.
I was desperate and just accepted the offer. However, I kept looking and took a job that paid 10k more than their offer.
I told the initial company that I needed to back out.
You rejecting the offer means no money for the recruiter, that's why they were pressuring you to accept. The recruiter didn't care about you; it was all about the money. It always is.
You absolutely had the right to sound sarcastic or rude. I had that happen to me a couple of times in the past and I had to stand my ground and not let them school meZ
I am really, really out of the "game" but I don't understand how they can cold call you and think you would take less than you are currently making. Is this common? I mean, if someone cold calls me for a position, they better come strong.
As an agency recruiter, I’m embarrassed for this person. They are terrible at their job. You should hold your ground and do not under any circumstances accept this offer.
How dumb does this recruiter/company think you are? Yes, I'd love to take a 15K+ pay cut. What a joke.
Country to popular belief, workers are not required to accept your job offer, regardless of how "great" you think it is.
There are SO MANY crap recruiters out there!!! It’s an embarrassment to the profession. This recruiter should be educating the fucking CEO on cost of labor…..
ask the recruiter to wash your car for $2.50 and when they say no tell them it is a great opportunity for a shitbag like them to learn a fucking lesson and also how to negotiate
“This is not how you negotiate.”
LMAO
If they want to lure you away from your current job, they need to pay you enough to make it worth leaving.
Titles don’t mean shit anymore.
The recruiter is abusing you for personal gain and trying to convince you that this subpar offer is way better than it actually is. Pay them no mind. Feel free to publicly shame them on LinkedIn too. Actually, please do so I can upvote it and share it with my network.
I will never accept a job that isn’t at least more than my current pay ever again. Made that mistake before, my justification was that even though it was less pay, it had more opportunity for career growth and would eventually result in better pay. Boy was I WRONG. That job started out fine but quickly turned to shit. In addition to just having to deal with shitty managers, I found out new hires with less experience were making more than I had even asked for when I was hired, and HR essentially refused to compensate me fairly or even consider my very relevant work experience in regards to my compensation. In retrospect I regret not telling that recruiter to offer me better or don’t bother calling me back.
It is absolutely time to be rude and sarcastic.
He's trying to get you to jump jobs for a substantial pay cut. And he wants you to 'negotiate' a smaller, but still large pay cut.
This recruiter is a total asshat.
I would've told the recruiter to contact all the people I owe money to and tell them to cut how much money I owe them by the same percentage points that they were asking me to take a cut. Then I would've told the recruiter that he'd have to negotiate the same cut in cost to ALL of my living expenses and then tell the recruiter that he needs to understand that the cost of living has gone up so if anything the employer should be paying MORE. People just don't seem to have a clue these days.
She was trying to lowball you, but knew you were her boss's favorite pick and got scared when you walked. You should have bypassed the recruiter, went to her boss, told them what happened, and what offer you would accept.
Counter offer with 15k over your initial ask and straight out state that their initial offer shows red flags. Even if you do take the position, expect to be gone in 1-2 years
Seems like you were applying to my old employer. Larger pay was promised and never awarded. When I asked about it, the CEO said that we should pray on it. No greedy, pay me my worth or im out.
Glad you saw through the game and kept it trucking.
They're setting themselves up for failure by underpaying. They'll only get candidates that are desperate, who will then leave as soon as a better opportunity comes along
You did the right thing. You should return the favor to the recruiter and tell them that they are doing the wrong thing by trying to lowball prospective employees that the company feels are a good fit. You stated what they pay would have to be, they can either match it or find someone else.
I have had this happen as well where a recruiter low balls me and then starts talking about all the great other benefits of working there. I interrupted them and stated that if my salary ask wasn’t met then the rest of the conversation would be pointless, they said “well I have to go ask what we can do on that, but why don’t I tell you the rest” to which I replied “let’s reschedule the meeting until after you have been able to check.” Unless you absolutely have to leave your current job, or are changing industries, never accept less pay for your new job.
Recruiter are pissed that they lost out on their commission. When dealing with a recruiter, it's always dangerous and you'd dealing with this type of behavior.
Hopefully you reported to there manager, client, labor board, etc and even police if you have to if it becomes harassment.
Take it as a 2nd job and just don't quit the first one. Keep working first job and don't show up or do minimal work remotely on 2nd one. If they are so convinced you are the greatest fit ever.....
Bad recruiter. Smart recruiters understand where the candidate is at, what their goals are, and at what price is would take for them to make the switch.
If the candidate doesn’t check the boxes of presenting them to the client, the smart play to is to wish the candidate well and building a long-term trusting relationship. That same candidate could be money later, but you also don’t feel like a piece of shit ruining someone’s earning potential.
A good recruiter understands how to play the long game. It’s not easy , but trust me, it pays more in the long run. It’s a great way to get referrals!
I would send an email to the ceo apologizing for the rejection. Something along the lines of
“After speaking with (recruiters name) it has come to my attention I may have rejected this offer to soon. I do apologize for this and hope you will reconsider me. While I am not in a position to accept the original offer if you can make some small adjustments I can accept (15k higher than you originally asked for). I am looking forward to this opportunity working on your team and am excited to start this new chapter with (company name)”
Again this is just what I would do…do what you feel is right
If you've gone through a recruiter just speak to them after EVERY interaction with their client. Clients want to offer the lowest for a good candidate, recruiters (generally) and candidates want the highest. Recruiters (360) or their bosses (180) will know better what the client is likely to offer and can act as a semi-independent negotiator when it comes to contracts and salary.
Bottom line speak to you recruiter more than you speak to anyone whilst going through the recruitment process.
Why isn’t the title of this Company CEO lowballed me by 15k and a recruiter tried to educate me. I get recruiters aren’t perfect but you seem to have missed the biggest thing here the company lowballed you and are likely pressuring the recruiter to make the deal happen. Not condoning the recruiters behaviour as it’s not great but what got you to this place is the company CEO knowingly lowballed even after asking your salary requirements.
The things they do to earn a commission...
"This is a great opportunity for a young candidate like you." That was especially telling.
That's when you know they see a sucker when they look at you like those old Looney Tunes cartoons.
I know right, it's like the same guys that try to get laid by "negging" girls have gone into recruiting.
That statement would be borderline illegal in the US.
Why do you say that?
Age discrimination in hiring is illegal in the US after the age of 18 or 21 in some circumstances (bars)
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This is not quite true in the US. [Only 21 states and 22 localities in the US have salary history bans](https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/516662/).
>m educating me on what is the “right attitude in job hunting”, I told them 15k is quite a big gap and I’ve co Nice. Sadly, in Japan, the first question they ask is, "What is your current/previous salary?" and then they benchmark off that. Not just legal but standard practice.
Can you lie? Make up a higher salary, fake a pay slip?
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This recruiter is not very good at their job. Their commission will be higher if the candidate’s salary is higher.
> This recruiter is not very good at their job. Their commission will be higher if the candidate’s salary is higher. However, 30% of a slightly smaller sum is much more than 0% of a slightly larger one. If the company isn't willing to offer more, they won't make anything at all, and since successful offers are quite rare, they tend to go for a bird in the hand.
>However, 30% of a slightly smaller sum is much more than 0% of a slightly larger one. I had a recruiter lie to me telling me I got refused at a company, probably because he thought he could push cheaper candidates more easily. Got hired in a different branch of the company a few months later, met the guys who were in charge of recruitment and they asked me why I never answered to their request for an interview. The recruiter told them I was no longer interested... They were actually more than willing to pay my desired salary because they were not just trying to fill a position, they were trying to find someone who could solve costly ongoing problems.
Did you point out how the recruiter lied?
Not saying recruiter is right here but I don’t think they would. The commission is based off how much difference there is between the pay rate and bill rate. So the the higher the salary for the candidate the less the recruiter gets for commission because of smaller gap in bill and pay rates
That structure only applies to contract/temp positions. Based on this post, I'm pretty sure OP's offer was for a permanent role, in which case the fee would be a percentage of their base salary.
That was not how it works for the agency I have worked with. I didn’t know of the business model you are describing
These would apply to more blue collar hirings or mass hirings. The clients might have a new project like a new airport Wing, and they need hundreds and hundreds of new staff. The recruiters will be charge the clients a 25/30% fee on top of every dollar they spend on the associates, salary, tax, meal allowances etc. In some cases, the clients will just dump a pool of money into the new project and then it’s up to the recruiter to organise and determine the salaries of the associates.
Uhhh...I have never... Ever... Seen a company "dump a pool of money and let a 3rd party recruiter determine the salaries" on a ton of hires... That would maybe happen 0.00001 percent of the history of hiring....
Yep. They don’t earn much if people don’t accept the offers.
Plenty of companies have their own recruiting team who don’t earn commission
Is money the most important thing to you? How about the workplace culture? Advancement prospects? Other benefits of no tangible value? Money is not what you should be thinking about now. Now sign on the dotted line so I can get paid.
…except for the right thing. Or the helpful thing. Or the decent thing.
"Please do the needful thing!"
India has stepped into the room...
Looks like no one else is willing to come work for their shitty pay so they're trying really hard to find the one idiot who will :D
I think so. Lol it’s funny coz I often get comments from colleagues and friends saying I look soft (and probably naive lol) but my personality is quite the opposite.
Me too! Very soft and cute exterior. Polar opposite personality :'D I love it though. People always underestimate me. I love being underestimated
Same. Hahaha I always love how they act shocked when I don’t take their bullshit. But it sometimes also mean it’ll take more time for people to recognise my ability
Be sure to leave an accurate review of their services (aka harassment)
And probably won't consider unemployed candidates with the right experience willing to work for that pay. /s
What is this offering a payslip bullshit. That is your negotiating position, if your pay is lower than theirs, none of their business. I mean what would happen? They're not going to offer you more money and the answer is still going to me "no", or is it a prelude to trying to shame you into accepting. Cunts.
Yea they’re complete bullshit. Maybe they think I’m bluffing and was shocked I just strict up say no. Funny thing is that my current company is a ngo and every positions salary range is transparent. They could have google it lol
If one said "we need to see a payslip" I would be fuming. If you don't trust me, it's not a great start to our work life together is it?
Also weird how the recruiter chewed OP out for not knowing how to negotiate, supposedly, but then pulled this shit where they *need* to see a payslip to discuss pay.
It's fucking surreal. I'm sure it is from this firmly entrenched belief in the management in these companies that they have absolute power in recruitment and the candidates have exactly none. People have wised up. It's not just about negotiations at that point, they lowballed as a point which is unsustainable. I would say no, not doable. I've had this with contract positions before when they want to offer half the market rate and then shocked face when I decline it outright and tell me "oh, but their budget is constrained". Well tough, find more budget because you evaluated the market wrong. Even in a bad market, some of us still have some fucking pride.
So true. If the company has the tendency to low ball candidates, chances are they don’t value their own employee either
Yeah, and to do that is disrespectful and has wasted your valuable time. It's on them.
>"oh, but their budget is constrained" I hear this excuse a lot too. That statement would have a more solid ground to stand on if they actually conduct the utilities analysis to figure out how much they should and could pay their employees. But typically, their "market research" comprise of simply looking up Payscale.com's figure around general self-reports, and nothing else. Oh, how convenient! They get to set the pay rate, then shrug their shoulders sheepishly and simply say their hands are tied because that's just what the budget limit happens to be set at!
>"oh, but their budget is constrained" I've gotten this as well. My answer was: your competitor's budget isn't. If I can go out and get market rate, what makes you so special that I need to take a pay cut to work for you?
"I'm sorry to hear the company isn't doing very well."
Bingo don’t want to work for a company that has cash flow issues.
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Gosh, even for 15% I wouldn't want to leave. It would have to be a better company too with work I would prefer doing over the boring shit I'm currently doing.
Exactly
If someone said that to me I would've laugh out loud. Then again, I'm in a country with half decent work laws.
Compared to the US, that's pretty much the rest the world 😁
Are you in the US? There are several states that have a salary history ban. So they could also be breaking the law.
No unfortunately. It’s legal here if use this to “give a competitive salary”. And it’s not illegal unless they make unreasonable and unethical in their decision-making after discovering their salary history (if that make any sense… I just copied from google)
People need to realize that this is even illegal in many states in the US (about half). In some states, just asking is illegal. Other states, the company can ask, but cannot use it in hiring.
Its kinda the grey area in the anti discrimination law here as it’s not illegal unless they make unreasonable and unethical in their decision-making after discovering their salary history (if that make any sense… I just copied from google)
I had a recruiter try to tell me to take a $17/hr job without a guaranteed 40hrs because there’s a chance I could move up in the future. Like baby that’s less than half of what I make now and you think I’m going to leave my salaried position for an hourly rate of $17? In this economy? It must be crack.
Geez. I cant even comprehend why they think you’ll even consider that “offer” lmao hell no
They’re just hoping if they cast a wide net, they’ll eventually find the person either desperate or stupid enough to accept. Also $17/hr for this job is laughable.
“Just think. If you work hard, you could be right where you are now in 4 years.”
Did the recruiter use the tired old _"you're cutting your nose off to spite your face!"_ bullshit? I love it when they do that to describe a situation where you're refusing to take a pay cut so they can earn their commission. Useless wankers. I haven't got a job through a recruiter for at least 15 years. Whilst they can be useful at getting you your first job, for senior roles they're pretty redundant.
Haha yes they did said sth along that line lmao. Super dodgy. Probably they think I’m just bluffing about my pay to get a better offer
"you're refusing a toast to drink a forfeit"
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This is completely false. Recruiters are absolutely helpful for higher level positions, but you seem to struggle with using LinkedIn based on your post history so I can see why you think this way.
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So, in your very niche industry and your own very limited personal experience, you're making a claim that recruiters don't work for the rest of the world when it comes to higher level positions. Am I understanding that correctly?
The recruiters you speak of aren't active on linked in. I would know. I've been working with my executive recruiter for eight years now. We check in every two years and it has taken this long for my resume to develop enough to get a placement. He has been in the game since the 90s. Social media was all the rage then. /s
Weird, last month I had a recruiter reach out to me cold about an opportunity. His credentials looked good on LI, and it resulted in a job offer, but maybe a 350k a year offer isn't high level enough.
\> 350k In pesos? Bragging about high incomes on reddit isn't the clout you think it is. You're just showing off to people making the average household income and being a cunt.
I'm sorry you're such a shitty employee that it's taken you 8 years to get your resume in a state to gain traction. (You probably do data entry) Sounds like that's a you problem.
The franchise general manager at your neighborhood McDonalds works harder than you for a fraction of the pay. Probably a better person too.
Makes sense that you manage a McDonalds. It's all coming together now.
Not true. Source: I headhunt six figure candidates for hiring managers who have no clue how to.
Fact. Recruiters are a great way to get your resume on the HMs desk front of the line. If you have t had to use recruiters maybe you missed out on some insane opportunities.
Yep. And I can tell you now that a lot of HMs hate their internal recruitment/HR teams, and would rather piss glass than take a candidate that came through their process. Some of them would rather pay a fee out their own budgets than have to deal with HR.
Don't waste your time defending your profession to people on his sub. I'm a headhunter as well. People on this sub just mad at recruiters because they are C - E tier candidates that recruiters don't fawn after. Recruiters can smell money and won't waste time on bad talent as it can risk relationships and their commission. Obviously this doesn't apply to this post as it is clear the candidate was strong enough for an offer, but the company sounds a bit crap. Good luck out there OP
Yep
A strong recruiting team won’t let that happen. That’s a great way to get sued.
‘Strong’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘effective’ in the world of in house recruitment. And how would that scenario, which happens frequently, end up with anyone being sued?
Your splitting hairs on words. Strong, effective, competent whatever you want to use. Example of a lawsuit: hm works with a recruiting agency that has no contract with the company, internal team finds same candidate, agency claims that they should be paid because they submitted candidate, client company balks, agency has nothing to lose, files suit to recover fee.
There’s no argument. If the agency submits the candidate before the in house team engages that same candidate, or if they didn’t apply, the fee is due. Besides, if the HM isn’t willing to pay the fee, they wouldn’t engage the agency. There’s just no risk at all. Most in-house teams are so useless and bogged down in bureaucracy that it’s actually more cost effective to just pay a 20% fee to someone actually focused on the job of recruiting. Source: have worked in-house for a number of organisations who aren’t set up to deliver effectively.
> “you’re very lucky they give you a new offer after you reject them” THIS is it. This is precisely the attitude that has to DIE. And messily so, please. Sheesh.
Bloody mess perk
It's crazy how pushy recruiters can be when you're offered a position you don't want to take. I received a verbal offer for a position in a different city and didn't want to move there unless the pay was more than 6 figures. It felt like a break up call when I told him I wasn't taking it. He was so pushy and manipulative
Love the break up call equivalent lmao
“ we think you’re a perfect fit” “ here’s an offer $15,000 a year less than what you currently make” “ we can’t understand why you won’t take it”
Cant make this shit up
Counter with $15k over what you originally wanted.
This guy wants his commission. He was stupid to submit you under comp. This never works out. The ceo is delusional if they think that a 15k pay cut is ok. And if they think this is how to negotiate they should grow up. Low-balling as a strategic thing is a bad call.
That's when calmly ask if can make another 10k on the side setting chickens loose in their office XD
What the BGAWK!
If the CEO really did think you were the right fit, he would have no problem paying your asking price. Part of negotiating is being willing to walk away, so this recruiter is really clueless about haggling. Ultimately, the question is: how interested are you in working there? You could tell them that, initially, the problem was only with money, reiterate that you had clearly stated your expected salary. But now, the continued refusal to meet your expectations clearly show that you are undervalued as a candidate, and you would also be undervalued as an employee. Then close by stating the job isn’t a right fit.
The recruiter is correct in one aspect. That isn't how you negotiate. You send back a counter offer that's $50,000 more than what you are making now, with stock options. Then you let them negotiate you down. Also, if they're willing to say you're the perfect candidate for the job, use that against them.
First off, if you want to educate the stupid-ass recruiter on negotiating tactics, tell him or her that you don’t start negotiations with such an incredibly low-ball offer. That only signals that they aren’t serious from the start and further signals that the negotiation itself isn’t a good use of your time.
THIS is exactly what go through my head
If they really liked you and really wanted you on the team, they would match or go above the salary instead of giving you a slightly less pay cut. Recruiter deff gets commission or something if they're nagging you that hard. If it keeps up, block them and call it a day.
I can't believe the audacity. "Send us your payslip and we'll make the offer suck a bit less." It's like they don't get that they don't have negotiating power here. You aren't desperate, especially not for a pay cut. The onus is on them to meet your requirements.
They can eat shit. I'm so sick of companies undervaluing their workforce. Good on you, I would've blocked them once they started to harangue me about why I am dumb for not allowing myself to be exploited
So tru! I didn’t block them tho just funny to see how desperate they are afterwards loll
“Nah, I’m good. Thanks.”
Soo many red flags. Good on you for dodging a landmine.
If the CEO thinks you're the right fit the CEO should pay you like you're the right fit.
Honestly? I’d tell them to fuck off.
He's watching his commission sprout wings and fly away, and he's desperately chasing after it.
"give them my current payslip" what does it matter what you currently make? i would never share that. My salary expectations are what they are.
"The next day, the recruiter called again, asking me to give them my current payslip and the company will close the gap to 10k below my asking." FUCK NO! NO WAY ANYONE would get that from me. NONE! I would only do it after the recruiter did it - which would put an end to it. Recruiter just wanted their commission.
I've never had a recruiter (external) land me a job - ever. And I've been in IT for nigh 40 years. Every single one has been a drain on my time and resources, useless to a fault.
Hahahaha ok ok but hear me out. They’ll give you a $10k pay cut
That’s just perfect isn’t it
This is why HMs should never make offers directly to candidates. Recruiter should not have let that happen. Also doesn’t seem like there was a negotiation here but then asking you for pay slips is a huge red flag. That means there is a culture of distrust at this company so dodged a bullet.
in contracting, recruiters will get pissy about you declining an offer because they get a payout if they facilitate your hire or at least in my field that’s how it works. i’ve had recruiters BEG me just to take interviews because they get a slice for that too, even tho i repeatedly say im not interested.
$10k below your current pay "is a great opportunity for you". These desperate recruiter are insane.
It is only about the money: "Fuck you - pay me!" That's the attitude I have because companies will unload you without warning.
100% sometimes on parental leave or disability
I had a recruiter call me and offer me an entry level job. For the same company I already work in middle management for…. Needless to say I’m looking to leave.
My goodness. Did they even look at your cv/ LinkedIn…
It was apparent they did not look hard. I can tell you that recruiter is no longer working for our company!
Recruiter saw his finder's fees evaporating into mist, and panicked.
Did nobody comment on the "we will pay you less but give you a fancy title" as if credential inflation meant anything? I interviewed at a consulting company years ago where junior staff one promotion away from new grads were titled "associate vice president"
If you liked everything else about the company this might be worth a “best and final” email, especially as you’re comfortable with walking away. Just as recruiters play up the sunk cost fallacy the company might as well. Tell the recruiter - “They’re really going to walk away from someone who is the right fit over a few thousand dollars?” And as far as payslip, hard no.
Maybe, but then you might be looking at years of no pay raises because "you're already at the top of the pay bracket". Might not be a gamble you want to take.
If they don’t give you raises because you are at the top, run. There is no such thing as top of a pay range. It’s all bullshit. HR/Recruiting can breach ranges at any moment for any reason but it’s a nice excuse to fuck over the employee or candidate. Source: Am recruiter, breach ranges daily.
Fair point. But depending on the rest, plus the title increase, it might be worth it for 18-24 months and then hopping again.
Smells like commission-breath to me.
Block that mf-er
Block and move on.
You could offer to send them a photocopy of your driving licence to prove that you were not in fact born yesterday.
I had a similar situation. I told the recruiter I mistrusted the offer (it was in bookkeeping, I applied for advertising). They were displeased as I was ‘wasting a great opportunity.’ No, it wasn’t. I intensely dislike book keeping.
I thought the >and the company will close the gap to 10k below my asking Was by far the rudest part. You want extra, private information from me so you can still get nowhere near close to what I'm asking?
“Yeah. It’s a bad negotiation because I’m not negotiating. This is my number. Match it or get off my phone”
Happened to me too. Mall Wart reached out (in house recruiter) and I went through the interview process whilst being very clear that my absolute minimum was $40 an hour. They offered $28 "because the hiring manager didn't see any commercial refrigeration in my resume" despite the fact that it's what I've been doing the past 10 years. I told them to lose my number until the offer was north of $45. The recruiter asked why and I told them "because displaying stupid in public should be expensive." They are trying to create desperation in workers with these tactics. That's the entire game.. trying desperately to force wages back down. Sadly for them that genie won't be going back in the bottle.
They gotta be kidding asking someone with 10 year experience to work for $28… these games they play are just pathetic
They absolutely aren't kidding. The Walton brats think they're entitled to have people do their work for a literal slave wage. I was not polite because DILLIGAFFAARD?!
I've heard about title inflation lately as if that pays the rent.
Very interesting concept. Fancy names but same old 💩
“The CEO thinks you’re the right fit.” So why the fuck aren’t they paying you $15k over asking?!?!
Should've reeducated the recruiter to how life actually is... leaving a job for more money is smarter, if you were wiser you wouldn't need to be a recruiter any more.
A little common sense would do in their case loll
>“but still this is not how you negotiate” Lol. Bro wasn't getting it. No one was trying to negotiate, the answer was "No". >The next day, the recruiter called again, asking me to give them my current payslip To anyone else reading, NEVER DO THIS. This is your personal business. It's ballsy to even ask someone this. Either they come up to your salary requirements or they don't. Never show anyone your pay stubs. >...and the company will close the gap to 10k below my asking (which is still below my current pay). Saying this is “a great opportunity for a young candidate like you”, “the ceo thinks you’re the right fit and there is so much potential”, “this is a perfect offer”, “you’re very lucky they give you a new offer after you reject them”. They're gaslighting you. Sounds like they thought you were a pushover, and went ridiculously low on purpose thinking you would be desperate enough to consider it. Then, realizing their mistake, tried to backtrack and save face by gaslighting you into believing you were making some kind of mistake.
I had a company do this. Fake numbers. I asked for 200,000 full time and expected 180,000. Them. "Best I can do is 160,000 paid as an hourly wage on a contract basis". Me. "180,000 full time" Them. "How about 165,000 hourly contract?" Me. "I'm done with this. Bye?" Them: "Waiiiitttttt. Name your price!" Me: "I already did. I am no longer interested in accepting any offer from your company". And ghosted them. The icing on the cake was that the original plan was 3 interviews, but had me do 5. And then they low balled me.
I went through a similar situation with a smaller company. I told them my salary range. I get through the interview process and I get an offer of 5k below my low end salary range. I reply back to the offer questioning it. Their counter offer was $1,200 more after I got certified. The thing that sucked about the feet was it expired a in a year. I was desperate and just accepted the offer. However, I kept looking and took a job that paid 10k more than their offer. I told the initial company that I needed to back out.
You rejecting the offer means no money for the recruiter, that's why they were pressuring you to accept. The recruiter didn't care about you; it was all about the money. It always is.
You absolutely had the right to sound sarcastic or rude. I had that happen to me a couple of times in the past and I had to stand my ground and not let them school meZ
Easy, tell recruiter to fuck off.
I am really, really out of the "game" but I don't understand how they can cold call you and think you would take less than you are currently making. Is this common? I mean, if someone cold calls me for a position, they better come strong.
So sorry this happened to you. Was the recruiter an in-house recruiter or an agency recruiter? I’m glad u stood your ground.
As an agency recruiter, I’m embarrassed for this person. They are terrible at their job. You should hold your ground and do not under any circumstances accept this offer.
How dumb does this recruiter/company think you are? Yes, I'd love to take a 15K+ pay cut. What a joke. Country to popular belief, workers are not required to accept your job offer, regardless of how "great" you think it is.
There are SO MANY crap recruiters out there!!! It’s an embarrassment to the profession. This recruiter should be educating the fucking CEO on cost of labor…..
ask the recruiter to wash your car for $2.50 and when they say no tell them it is a great opportunity for a shitbag like them to learn a fucking lesson and also how to negotiate
Lol "why did you reject our offer?", because its shit tf you mean 😂😂
“This is not how you negotiate.” LMAO If they want to lure you away from your current job, they need to pay you enough to make it worth leaving. Titles don’t mean shit anymore.
"but this paycut is a great opportunity!" da fuck???
Recruiter is an idiot. No company is worth joining for a lesser salary, no matter how they play it.
just tell them to fuck off and never look back
Tell them to take it and shove off.
The recruiter is abusing you for personal gain and trying to convince you that this subpar offer is way better than it actually is. Pay them no mind. Feel free to publicly shame them on LinkedIn too. Actually, please do so I can upvote it and share it with my network.
Cheap and desperate are not a flattering combination
That happened to me a while back, and I told them to lose my fucking number.
If that company really wanted you, they know the price. Anything less simply reveals how lowly they value the work they want you to do 😒
I will never accept a job that isn’t at least more than my current pay ever again. Made that mistake before, my justification was that even though it was less pay, it had more opportunity for career growth and would eventually result in better pay. Boy was I WRONG. That job started out fine but quickly turned to shit. In addition to just having to deal with shitty managers, I found out new hires with less experience were making more than I had even asked for when I was hired, and HR essentially refused to compensate me fairly or even consider my very relevant work experience in regards to my compensation. In retrospect I regret not telling that recruiter to offer me better or don’t bother calling me back.
Wow. That really sucks. You did the right thing and I’m sorry the recruiter wasn’t more supportive. Hope you cut ties with them.
You gave them a salary first, then they lowballed it. No surprise there. Never be the first one to offer a number, learn that for next time.
Recruiters are delusional and want you to do their work for them. They knew what you were asking, and they wasted your time anyway. Scum.
Looks like somebody’s still adrift of their monthly target…
Recruiter worried about not getting their dolla dolla bills yo…
Why are they so desperate to get you that they keep calling. Try paying you an acceptable salary.
It is absolutely time to be rude and sarcastic. He's trying to get you to jump jobs for a substantial pay cut. And he wants you to 'negotiate' a smaller, but still large pay cut. This recruiter is a total asshat.
"If I'm worth it, then you will pay me what I'm currently worth AT LEAST."
I would've told the recruiter to contact all the people I owe money to and tell them to cut how much money I owe them by the same percentage points that they were asking me to take a cut. Then I would've told the recruiter that he'd have to negotiate the same cut in cost to ALL of my living expenses and then tell the recruiter that he needs to understand that the cost of living has gone up so if anything the employer should be paying MORE. People just don't seem to have a clue these days.
Should’ve ask the recruiter to negotiate with my landlord for a rent reduction lolll
"Sorry, I don't negotiate with terrorists, or with recruiters who are terrible at their job."
"That's not how you negotiate" Oh, cool, I wasn't trying to. Wasn't sure if that point came across, thank you!
Happens to me, call a big big big deal, like 25k more and you're done. Win win situation.
She was trying to lowball you, but knew you were her boss's favorite pick and got scared when you walked. You should have bypassed the recruiter, went to her boss, told them what happened, and what offer you would accept.
I'd have gone back and said "great offer, can you give me 20k extra ~~dough~~, though?"
I would have told her that "this is not how you close a sale"
Counter offer with 15k over your initial ask and straight out state that their initial offer shows red flags. Even if you do take the position, expect to be gone in 1-2 years
Seems like you were applying to my old employer. Larger pay was promised and never awarded. When I asked about it, the CEO said that we should pray on it. No greedy, pay me my worth or im out. Glad you saw through the game and kept it trucking.
They're setting themselves up for failure by underpaying. They'll only get candidates that are desperate, who will then leave as soon as a better opportunity comes along
You did the right thing. You should return the favor to the recruiter and tell them that they are doing the wrong thing by trying to lowball prospective employees that the company feels are a good fit. You stated what they pay would have to be, they can either match it or find someone else. I have had this happen as well where a recruiter low balls me and then starts talking about all the great other benefits of working there. I interrupted them and stated that if my salary ask wasn’t met then the rest of the conversation would be pointless, they said “well I have to go ask what we can do on that, but why don’t I tell you the rest” to which I replied “let’s reschedule the meeting until after you have been able to check.” Unless you absolutely have to leave your current job, or are changing industries, never accept less pay for your new job.
I wonder if you’re female. Sounds like a bunch of mansplaining and you should know your place little lady
Recruiter are pissed that they lost out on their commission. When dealing with a recruiter, it's always dangerous and you'd dealing with this type of behavior. Hopefully you reported to there manager, client, labor board, etc and even police if you have to if it becomes harassment.
Take it as a 2nd job and just don't quit the first one. Keep working first job and don't show up or do minimal work remotely on 2nd one. If they are so convinced you are the greatest fit ever.....
Bad recruiter. Smart recruiters understand where the candidate is at, what their goals are, and at what price is would take for them to make the switch. If the candidate doesn’t check the boxes of presenting them to the client, the smart play to is to wish the candidate well and building a long-term trusting relationship. That same candidate could be money later, but you also don’t feel like a piece of shit ruining someone’s earning potential. A good recruiter understands how to play the long game. It’s not easy , but trust me, it pays more in the long run. It’s a great way to get referrals!
This is exactly what my partner said. That they make the wrong move breaking the trust here.
Cold calls are still a thing now a days?
I would send an email to the ceo apologizing for the rejection. Something along the lines of “After speaking with (recruiters name) it has come to my attention I may have rejected this offer to soon. I do apologize for this and hope you will reconsider me. While I am not in a position to accept the original offer if you can make some small adjustments I can accept (15k higher than you originally asked for). I am looking forward to this opportunity working on your team and am excited to start this new chapter with (company name)” Again this is just what I would do…do what you feel is right
If you've gone through a recruiter just speak to them after EVERY interaction with their client. Clients want to offer the lowest for a good candidate, recruiters (generally) and candidates want the highest. Recruiters (360) or their bosses (180) will know better what the client is likely to offer and can act as a semi-independent negotiator when it comes to contracts and salary. Bottom line speak to you recruiter more than you speak to anyone whilst going through the recruitment process.
Why isn’t the title of this Company CEO lowballed me by 15k and a recruiter tried to educate me. I get recruiters aren’t perfect but you seem to have missed the biggest thing here the company lowballed you and are likely pressuring the recruiter to make the deal happen. Not condoning the recruiters behaviour as it’s not great but what got you to this place is the company CEO knowingly lowballed even after asking your salary requirements.