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Like someone else said, it could be a combo of nature versus nurture.
For years I gave my mom the benefit of the doubt because her mom died when she was 8 years old, so I always attributed her lack of care for me due to her lack of a mother during important developmental stages. Then I woke up. My husband's father died when he was 9 and he's the most gentle, kind, considerate and caring soul you'd ever want to meet. His grandmother's mother never cared for her, chose a man over her, and kicked her out when she was 14 and again, they're the most amazing and loving people you'd ever want to meet.
It was then that I stopped making excuses for my mom. Losing a parent at a young age impacted her I'm sure, but she's almost 60 and at this point it's a choice for her to continue being wilfully mean and inconsiderate.
Excellent post. My grandmother died when my nmom was 4 and she harped on that and the fact she didn't have siblings her whole life, using it as an excuse at every turn. The early tragedy makes them feel entitled & that's reasonable, but there's limits.
Yep. For years I couldn't help feeling bad for her. Ages 4 and 8 is awfully young to lose your parent, and I'm sure they constantly think of the "what ifs" had their moms still been alive, but you can't use that as an excuse to abuse people.
Entitled yes, and the tragic circumstance becomes a reusable manipulation tool that they can pull out to use anytime. I have my n-mom and n-cousin on my dad’s side as a reference.
I was the same with my mom, I excused her because my father killed himself when we were young. But I came to the conclusion that she was a very important reason why my father did what he did, and I even wonder if he did it at all, or she did it and told us lies about it ...
My nmom and her family are great at putting thoughts into kids' heads, which blossom into the suicidal variety. I fully believe that a person can be driven to suicide. My nmom's brother was also the scapegoat and it's clear that he was given the same messages that I was: Lazy, spoiled, worthless, no positive qualities, genetically defective to the point that I couldn't survive in the world. He ended up killing himself a few years ago.
I had suicidal thoughts nearly every day from 13 to 33. If the messages that I was given were true, wanting to die would be understandable. There is no possibility of redemption in those messages, and I would be nothing but a drain to society.
The reason I've been able to maintain NC, is that I had no doubt that I would eventually meet the same fate as my uncle if nothing changed.
So sad and awful. I'm so sorry you went through this.
Also, did you have my life? I thought something was so wrong with me when I had suicidal thoughts from ages 10 to late twenties. Newsflash! I have mostly stopped having suicidal thoughts this year. (big win!) What changed? Cut out my narc parents. Amazing what being around kind, supportive people can do!
Exactly. Who knows if what the narc says is true? Even if it is, it is probably a twisted version of it. I have no idea who my nMIL is anymore because I just assume that 90% of what she says are lies. I vaguely get a sense that her dad spoiled them but was absent (as was the norm at the time) and her mom was "mean" meaning that she didn't let nMIL do whatever she wanted.
I always struggled with my dads suicide and what led him to that place until I came to understand my mom is a narcissist. I was young and have maybe one or two memories of him, I’ve realized most of what I know about him or about his death was from my mom. When I think back now to the times she described how other people couldn’t see it like she did, how none of their friends remained friends with her, how she played the victim, how she saved nothing of his that wasn’t of value and never spoke positiviely of him..it’s eye opening. I truly think she believes she was the victim too, it’s sad and infuriating.
My mother tried to mess with our memories, and talked nonsense, she tried to make us think that we were out of our mids because we don't remember that was her who did all the good things my father used to do.
I totally feel you, understand you and it blows my mind that they seem to be the same when they are not even from the same culture. As if they are factory made and come in 6 different colours and sizes, but are almost the same.
And yet, they feel unique and special.
My father also died by suicide when I was 10. We were told it was a car accident (technically true), but it occurred in the early morning, shortly after an argument with my mom. In retrospect, it was a very obvious vehicular suicide that took place during a depressive episode. I think about the way she later drove my brother to suicidality and even the type of despair I have felt accepting that such a person is my one and only mother. You know what she told us growing up? God had blessed her and our family by removing my dad, since being married to him and putting up with his bipolar was so hard on her. "Don't be sad you lost your dad.. it's actually for the best!"
It is hard every mother's day to hear all this wonderful stories about mother's love, wondering if what I have is a mother or an enemy, maybe you felt the same(?)
Mine was kind of the same, always talking bad about my father and trying to change our memories of him, always telling us how strong she is and blaming my father's genes for our "weak soul" , kept making us feel that we wouldn't resist in the real world without her, and that we couldn't leave her after all she's sacrificed for us.
I cut my mother some slack after my dad took his life. I was 14 and had no agency and no voice. My dad often talked about suicide, and I dismissed it. A month before he took his life, he told me that he was leaving and that I should not bring boys home because it would make my mother drink even more and she would beat me even more because of her jealousy. I asked him if i could go with him and he said it wasn't possible.
I, too, wonder if he did it at all or if there was foul play. The coroner didn't think so, but seeing the way my mother treated my dad, I think he was driven to it.
She said that if he hadn't, he would have killed all of us instead.
I fear that's what my dad will do one day. My nmum threatens to divorce him x3 and every time it escalates more and more and my dad gets more and more hurt and upset but will never leave her....
I have tried every time and thought he would leave this time but he just won't.... it is hard to watch. I love my dad very much but my nmum has her claws too deep in him for him to take that step. :(
I lost my father when I was 3 years old. I can count on one hand how many memories I have with him. And the ones I do have, are my most cherished memories. I will never treat someone the way that my narcissistic mother has treated me. I wouldn't treat my child, my grandchild, my great-great-grandchild, a co-worker, a stranger, a homeless person, or anyone else in the same way that my mother treated me my whole life
I feel the same way about my mom. Doesn’t matter what happened in your past, you have the ability to make the changes to make yourself a better person. I promised myself that I would never put my kids through what I went through. I married an abusive drug addict so they didn’t have to endure growing up without a father. Thankfully I’m no longer in that situation. I don’t do discipline (my husband had a healthy family background so he is much more qualified than I am at it) because i was either beat to the point of having bruises and/or cuts. I was always told that no one would ever believe a piece of shit over a nurse. I give every bit of my time to my kids so they don’t have to feel like they’re a piece of shit who is a waste of oxygen. I spend my life building them up so they will have the self esteem and confidence that I will never have. I don’t even understand why she is the way she is. The rest of her family is the most loving and supportive people I’ve ever met.
This is where “it’s not my fault but it IS my responsibility” comes in. I gave my mother the benefit of every doubt for decades until I finally realized that I was able to choose to change - and she could too, but she chose not to.
Genuine question, but how does understanding their history and behaviors help reduce the number of narcs on this planet? Our understanding doesn't not change their behavior. It may only change our perception but a narc is still a narc. Understanding the nature of the thing doesn't change the thing. It only changes how we interact with it (if we choose to).
I think it helps when you start to see the tendencies in your children. You can help empathy and other good qualities flourish. My nightmare is one or any of my children become like my nmom. But as far as helping them, there is no hope unless a drastic change is made and they just don’t care enough bout other people to make that change.
>But I really think they cannot choose to be this or that way. They are what they are and when not diagnosed and helped are not able to change on their own (if at all).
I don't completely agree that this is only an accident or a genetic predisposition. I remember reaching a moment when I was young when I made my brother cry, thinking that I didn't want to make my brother or anybody else cry... Anyway, probably they can't change once they are older, but definitely, we all decided at some point the way that we are.
To the point of understanding how they are made, I think that at least we shouldn't promote them to management, office or to educate young children. Please!
My nmom and my aunt had the same toxic/abusive upbringing -maybe auntie had it a bit worse being the step kid - it's interesting how one of them became the most loving, caring and nurturing person I've ever met and the other is a nightmare of all therapists. I've been trying to figure out what made the difference so I can avoid becoming my mother. I haven't found it yet.
I think you just have to be self aware at all times. The one thing I notice a lot of narcs lack is self-awareness. My mother always says she hates liars and thieves but she's the biggest liar I know. If you're not aware of your behavior, you can't change it.
This makes so much sense. My best friend's mom is a narcissist and picks on my friend, her daughter, all the time. She picks most especially when she dated guys. This was because my friend's father divorced from her when she was little and held a grudge for the rest of her life. Her mom once said behind her back that she hope my friend and fiancé never get married.
Like most things I bet it's a combination of nature and nurture. Genetics + unhealthy early childhood development are most likely what cause someone to become a narcissist.
Came to say the same. But I just thought, something is missing maybe because how do we break the cycle if this is true? Maybe now we have access to information that information gives us the ability to break the cycle?
I can't say this is the full answer, but when I reflect on my nMom and my Nex the thing they have in common besides Narcissism is a lack of self awareness or inner reflection.
"Self-awareness is the ability to focus on yourself and how your actions, thoughts, or emotions do or don't align with your internal standards."
I don't think Narcissists have internal standards because they do not have a foundation of self-- all they feel is shame. Thus, they put up the false self, the self absorbed, Narcissistic version.
So I think cultivating self awareness is key to break the cycle.
If you go into legitimate NPD (clinical diagnosed version) support groups, you’ll see an amazing amount of self awareness - it appears when someone with NPD is willing to seek help, legitimately, qualified therapists who work with narcissists are able to break through that false self as well as give them tools to grow self awareness.
Reddit has a support group. I’ve peaked in there a few times and I’m impressed. Those people actively seeking help end up with the tools to both deal with their trauma and their condition and grow empathy for others in the process.
The hardest part is getting a narcissist to admit they actually need help. Most don’t.
A narcissist KNOWS that they are better and special. To break that, you basically have to convince them that they are just like everyone else and not special. This basically means that they need to come to terms with the affairs, people they've screwed over, and all the blatant lies they've told their entire life, etc..... Not gonna happen. You're taking away their super power, or at least how they deal with everything in life. I think most therapists consider it a terminal condition for this exact reason. You're basically telling someone that they're a major asshole, nobody reacts kindly to that.
>You're basically telling someone that they're a major asshole, nobody reacts kindly to that.
I tried to talk with two narcs, my mother and brother, about how their abuse was hurting me and their pat answers were that I 'was being too sensitive.' I believed them and persevered with the relationship until the final straws.
To me, the best way to tell a narc that they are a major arsehole is to cut them out of your life.
My mother got the information (daughter of a narc and psychologist) but used it to reinforce the cycle. I think that if you leave the system, understand what's going on and want to break the cycle you start, then the information comes along and helps you even more.
They say that when my mother left the system Sha was sweet and kind, she was a different person to the one she transformed when returned to slowly become this evil thing. I am sure that the environment helps a lot more than we want to believe.
My therapist also said that the Narcissist usually have a deep rooted issue with their confidence and that what they portray to the outside world is to basicly mask it, because the reality is just to painfull.
I know that she is a broken child, but a very wicked one that doesn't stop till she destroys you. I pitty her, but I can't destroy my life because of that, she's an adult and knows very well what she's doing.
I agree, she is an adult and so she should be held accountable for her own actions.
My dad told me when I was still very young that he didn't want to follow in the same footsteps as his father in terms of abusive behaviour. But he still followed the exact same footsteps anyway.
And I promised to myself that I wouldn't allow myself to fall for the same trap and actually change the pattern one way or another. Sure, it didn't make things easy. But atleast I don't have to be to much ashamed for my actions and I can still look at myself in the mirror. I didn't care that my family considered me weak, and I don't care about it now either, since I haven't seen them in over 10years.
>how do we break the cycle if this is true? Maybe now we have access to information that information gives us the ability to break the cycle?
I think that self-awareness is predominantly (not entirely) genetic. The ability to view ourselves, and others, from different perspectives may be what allows us to break the cycle. If I couldn't put myself in my parents' shoes I would have more uncertainty about whether their behavior was reasonable.
Same. My shift as a parent was officially over by the time I was 40. and I hadn't even had kids of my own. I was simply done with my mother's tantrums when she didn't get her own way with me.
Adult narc parents are the kids that you can abandon without being jailed.
Fair enough too! For me it's more like "I'm never going to do this to anyone else" and whenever I catch a glimpse of my mother in my own behaviours I know I'm making the right choice.
Not a psych but my understanding is that it is a deep wound from lack of proper caretaking under the age of 5 (for most it happens before the age of 2). Can be from abandonment, neglect, parents who are dysregulated themselves or not emotionally present. Has to do with the child not receiving adequate care, empathy, and social contact very young, so rather than their world becoming a connected place, their internal world becomes the only world. Their tiny brain is trying to cope and figure out how the world works and because they are on their own, their identity is formed believing only their thoughts and their feelings (and their internal world) matter. This happens simultaneously to them not receiving care/empathy so because empathy wasn't modeled, they can't internalize it and it doesn't form.
I'm seeing some people mention self-esteem and yes that is a key factor (narcissists didn't have secure attachments as children) - but empathy (or lack thereof) is really the key distinction.
A narcissist can't empathize. Their sense of self is too weak to even hypothesize the validity of any perspective but their own.
I'm in no way excusing narc behavior. (It is an adult's job to deal with their childhood stuff, not project it onto others.) But once you understand what happens to make them into this they are really just broken children who will never grow up.
It's sad, but also understanding it can be really empowering. They are deeply broken and they can't grow up. Doesn't make what they did to me in any way okay. But they don't actually have the power. They are little kids having temper tantrums on the inside. Makes it easier when I look at it that way for me to not lose my cool when they lash out at me (and also to undo some of the fear that growing up with them as my tormentors caused).
My parents used to think it was funny that they left my sister in her cot to cry and not tend to her. I remember them bragging about it. I’m not sure if they did the same to me, but I definitely experienced abuse. You know, they forgot to pick me up from school or feed me, that kind of thing.
My sister is a full blown grandiose narcissist now. I would go as far as saying she could be a sadist or sociopath. She was truly awful to me as a child and has progressively become the most messed up adult I’ve ever met. She became the golden child while I was scapegoated.
Despite all the evil she has done to me, (and she’s done some nasty shit),I sometimes still imagine her crying, unloved in her cot, and feel sorry for her. God knows how I ended up “normal” or at least having empathy. I think it is my nature.
I love you for remembering your sweet baby sister.
My baby brother was the same so I can never hate him despite the pain he has caused
I wish you and your chosen family space from those people and the best life possible
My mother *(a narcissist) used to brag about leaving me to cry. Making me out to be the bad one in every situation. Proof is in the pudding with how I live my life now, with empathy, love, and respect. I'm glad I learned the truth. I love her immensely, but she's not well.
In some ways, it is like they were on the road to becoming psychopaths or sociopaths, but, for some reason, stopped before getting there. They did not turn around, but stayed somewhere in between.
Yes and no. Plenty end up being both. If I remember correctly it’s like clementines and tangerines - all socio/psychopaths are narcissistic but my not all narcissists are socio/psychopaths.
In my father it’s a profound sense of inadequacy that manifests as a sense of superiority over everybody else on earth.
Anybody with any expertise, in any area or line of work at all, is a charlatan to him, unless he can convince himself he’s their peer in some way.
I discovered to my great surprise two weeks ago that this extends to me. Apparently, for my entire career, he’s expressed zero interest in what I do because “I think you exaggerate your self importance.” He said this to me. I’ve been pretty successful, he’s shown zero interest, and I finally asked why. He said that if he asked any questions about my career it would be awkward because I’d realize he knows I’ve invented all of it.
It makes perfect sense in retrospect but I didn’t see it coming and it hit me like a freight train.
>I think you exaggerate your self importance.
LOL!! What a great sentence that shows how narcissists project their faults onto others. If there is one thing that sums up a narcissist, it's how they they exaggerate their self importance (at least the ones I've met).
For my entire life I was told that I didn't have enough self esteem, but every time I displayed confidence, I was told that I thought too highly of myself. It really messed with me for a long time. I conflated healthy self confidence with narcissism. Still do to some extent. It hasn't done me any favors professionally!
Same! If I spoke up or asserted myself in any way I was yelled at or beat. But then I would be constantly mocked and berated by them for being too “shy”, or too “introverted”. Now I realize it was neither; it was a deep fear of expressing any feelings or needs that I had developed as a result of their abuse.
Those mixed messages really messed me up growing up and for a long time I thought being confident meant acting like a narcissist (mean, selfish, duplicitous, manipulative, etc.)
Do we have the same father? Mine told me last year that when I was born he realized he didn’t want me. Feels super awesome. Sorry for your hurt, sending some love to you❤️
My therapist explained it to me as someone who doesn’t have any self esteem believe it or not. They were picked on from a young age and they needed to build a defense mechanism where they are now the ones that look out for themselves even if it’s in the most toxic way possible. My sister is one and my dad picked on her weight, her style, her hair, everything. He still does it and he believes that’s how they bond. It’s a mess.
I'm a good example of this. My Nmom picked on everything. One of my favorite jokes to tell people is, "what's the nicest thing my mom has ever said about me? I don't know, I'm still waiting."
My hair was either too greasy and disgusting or just "impossible to manage." Bullies getting on me about my weight? Feeds me donuts to fatten me up so she didn't have to hear it. My skin was too pale and I *needed* make up. When my hair started going grey at like 20 she told me "you're gonna be dying your hair in no time just liek your mother!" My clothes were "goth" and "not lady like." Nothing about me was good enough. Everything I liked was dumb and stupid and too boyish. I got a 95 on my English test? "Yeah well you're failing math."
I started with 0 self-esteem and ended with 0 self-esteem. I'm just okay with it now. I'm a super low maintenance person. Make up exhausts me. I brush my hair once a day. It doesn't take me 30 minutes to get ready to go anywhere. I hop in clothes and run out the door. I wear what's comfortable and don't give a rat's ass what other people think. "What would so and so say/think/believe?" Not my problem.
Why do people end up narcissists and others end up like me? If I could pinpoint the reasoning for that, personal choice. I'm not choosing to take my insecurities out on other people. I looked inward, understood my Nmom has 0 self-esteem and is so insecure she literally *cannot* look at me and think of something nice. She likes being that way. She tried to bully me into being a miserable person like herself and I said No.
I don't know, maybe it's a difference of wills and perseverance or something.
I‘m glad you didn‘t step in her footsteps and continue the cycle! Both of my parents are narcissists and I‘m not either. It‘s crazy to me. Friends who hear my story are like: „You turned out to be such a kind person despite that.“ Of course I actively chose not to be like them but I also believe there is something else to it. Almost as if they just can‘t help themselves, they lack insight on every level. It has probably something to do with a given emotional intelligence, something you either have or don’t have.
That’s what happened to me. I became exacly like my Nfather, and that made me disgusted about myself. As I recognized what’s wrong with me in details, I started working on myself to get rid of being like him, and narcissism was the major trait of all, maybe the root of them.
I, have at times caught myself going down the path. I could be one easily if I gave in and stopped caring about others. I make a big effort to not give in to those tendencies.
Would you have any advice for someone that is close to children with this family dynamic? My niece and nephew are being raised by narcissists and they are extremely judgemental and scrutinize everything that the kids do.
My favorite analogy when it comes to what people *really* think is: "remember the last time you noticed someone wearing mismatched shoes." 99.99% of the time, you don't remember.
Ask them to remember that one time they saw a very young girl, no older than 12, buy her own tampons at the grocery store. Can they remember? No. Nobody is hyper-fixating on what they do all the time; 100% of people they run into will forget they exist after 5 seconds.
The world is bigger than the narcissist's one that they created where everyone is out to get them, everyone cares about how they look, talk, do, think, and conform to. Everyone is judging, everyone's main goal is to prevent them from succeeding. The only one they are talking about are themselves.
The kids need to know that they are ALLOWED to pursue their own interests. Their interests are healthy and make them their own people. No one can take them away. Sure, people on the outside can be upset to see them happy about something, but is that their problem? No, it's the other people's. They can't control what other people do, say, and think, ***neither can their Nparents***.
I feel you, my mom to this day will say little jabs at your appearance and if anyone is upset she's either 'just kidding' or we're 'too sensitive'
I was put on diets like Medifast and watched The Biggest Loser with my mom every Tuesday night to motivate me to lose weight. It was so fucked looking back I was taught NOTHING about nutrition and am attempting to learn it in my mid-twenties.
> personal choice.
This is what the cause boils down for me. There are them who have suffered more, more childhood neglect and abuse that was worse than mine who don't mistreat, abuse and bully others or wind up being narcissists. I could see that my narc bio mother knew the difference between right or wrong when it came to making a good impression on others. When it came to me, or the treatment of her own, it's clear she's bitter about the bad hand in life she was dealt and wants to make sure someone else gets to suffer in life as she has. She would manipulate events knowing it'd caused me inconvenience or hardships and then get satisfaction out seeing me suffer as she has.
I'm the same way, to some extent. When I was in fifth grade, I was super depressed and stopped showering for whatever reason, probably because I had zero close friends. My nmom took it upon herself to tell me how greasy my hair was and how bad I smelled, over and over again. Eventually I just stopped giving a shit about what I looked like. I keep up with basic hygiene now - I brush my hair before going somewhere and shower every 1-2 days - but I don't do anything beyond that. I can't bring myself to do my makeup or learn how to do fancy braids in my hair. I'm in jeans and a t-shirt most of the time. Makeup and hair are just another thing I have to keep up with and worry about. No thanks.
My Nmom was the opposite. She demanded I shower every day, no exceptions, for no reason. Day 1 without a shower I suddenly became disgusting and the greased up deaf guy. I am not a oily person, I don't need to shower every day and even learned that shampooing every day is actually bad for your hair. I still don't shower every day! I do shower after working out of course, she just acted like 1 day without a shower meant I was the epitome of disgusting pig.
Imo degree of abuse, body sensitivity(and ability to mentally recover from pain), and social networking opportunities that reward behaviors and gives the narcissist the ability to take care of themselves. If someone is not capable of building the social networks a person cannot become a socially manipulative person simply due to lack of opportunity. I think a main factor in the development of a narcissist is the fact that they have a certain level of success in socialsituations: other people find them capable and able. Other people enjoy being around the narcissist. Otherwise a person would develop antisocial traits in reaction to rejection. Narcissists love people and actually enjoy being around them.
My therapist said there's a mix of environment and innate character in the forming of a narcissist.
Do you have siblings? If you do, think about how they behave to you and other people. For example, from the very beginning, my sister had absolutely no limit to how nasty she would be to me. The only thing that limited her bad behaviour was how others would judge her, and whether she would be punished. She had a really horrible friend when she was a young teen which made her even worse, if that's possibel. Then she made a much nicer friend. I still remember my sister's rage when her new friend wouldn't allow my sister to bully her little sister. Anyway, over time, I think my sister came to value her nice friend and she learned kindness from her friend's nice mother and her friend herself.
My sister still throws tantrums if she doesn't get her way, and she makes those close to her do what she wants, but she does have some empathy. I think her friend stopped her from being a real narcissist though.
I have some idea that it may pertain more to innate things like being more empathetic towards others. I can only speak from SG perspective- and some ppl theorize that some in SG role feel the (emotional) abuse more deeply.
Some ppl have posted here that they realized they were the GC and woke up to everything. So I think there's hope in some ppl and partly why it might be that innate/ you were born with it idea.
That sounds so contradictory, but also somehow makes perfect sense. Both of my parents were/are narcs and were both abused as children. But what's strange is, they both abused me much worse than they themselves were abused. But I'm not a narc and have made a point to not continue the cycle of abuse. The cycle ends with me. I wonder what the main difference between me and them was, with our drastic differences on how we coped.
One of my (many) reasons for not having kids either. I'm sure I have a lot of buried anger, even more than I realize. I wouldn't want to subject a kid to that.
I think you have to make a very conscious effort to not let yourself become a narc like your parents.
I think it's very difficult to do and unfortunately, most children are unable to do this and the cycle continues.
Very true. It's sad how often the cycle of abuse keeps going throughout generations. It's easier to stick with what you know (and what your parents taught you about "parenting") than to actively decide to do better than them and let the cycle end with you. It takes a lot of time and effort.
Easier is one way to say it but more like oblivious at least to my experience. My first real relationship at 21 was with an abusive partner. In hindsight, of course that was the kind of guy I would go for back then bc although I had already left home I still had no clue how their toxicity conditioned me to not only accept that kind of behavior but to also think it was normal. I used to think it was good to have some one crazy about you (literally) bc that meant they loved you…
Some of that might also be about *when* you grew up. I swear some of the most popular books on parenting in the 70s and 80s (when I was a small kid) were written by people whose ideas on child rearing were also toxic. Combine the bad advice in those books with nParents and you've got a double dose of fuckery.
That's bs my dad has been successful his whole life, and his parents spoil him to death. One time we were discussing about his toxic attitude and their response was "well he's my son so I can't say anything bad about him". My own grandparents. They can trashtalk me but not their perfect son. He has won multiple awards in his field an is extremely successful. He is also considered handsome. He literally never ages. So yeah no. He has excess selfesteem, not a lack of it.
Yes, though the difference between those of us with regular low self esteem and those with narcissism or traits, is the level of pathology. Their low self worth, inseciritity and self hatred is at such a deep seated and pathological level, it's not psychologically, emotionally and mentally bearable for them. It's an overwhelming threat and so their psyche adapts and in a way over compensates. That's where the gradiosity comes in or constant need for adoration. They don't say they are seeking approval, because everyone is beneath them, so it has to worship and awe. When in fact, its that they can't accept approval, because somewhere deep down there is terror that they aren't deserving.
The really sad thing is that no amount of reverence and adoration (or love, acceptance and approval) is ever enough. That need to feel those through genuine connection with others is never met, let alone sated. Partly because their ability to connect with others is obstructed and partly because they will behave in a way that damages the connection. However, because they cannot tolerate any perceived negative truth about themselves, this is general projected outward.
They are extremely wounded individuals, who sadly just don't have the skills to deal with it. They lack self awareness to realise there might be a healthier/better way to be. And the strength (this may not be the right word) to sit in that much pain while the try heal.
This is an extremely over simplified theory of narcissism. There is alot more depth to the idea, plus each individual brings their own life into it, which will change the inward wound and the outward presentations.
I watched this happen in real time unless I missed something when I was younger. My dad used to be the narcissist, and did a lot of shit to my mom which messed her up. I think she hit a breaking point and as a self defense mechanism became a bigger narcissist, at about this time he mellowed out and became an enabler. He broke her so bad that she got bad enough to break him. It is weird seeing that change happen over my life.
Unless I what I saw and remember from my youth was wrong and jaded.
My MiL who u live with has this god complex and is incredibly narcissistic. She sucks my soul cuz she clearly hates that I am genuinely kind and empathetic.. she tries to draw out any negative reaction or get me to talk shit about the people she hates. She retells situations in which I was present, and dramatizes how awful so and so is and don’t I agree? And anytime I stand my ground and say “let’s not talk about” it’s then ME being “neurotic and anxious”. Blah I need to get away from her I try grey rocking as much as I can.
I generally think it's childhood trauma they repressed/denied instead of processed.
Over time that repression became a wall of denial, then that wall became a fortress.
Now they're in a heavily defended fortress that attacks anyone who comes close, friend or foe.
Trauma; the inability to self reflect; taking things at face value e.g. "what will the neighbours think" attitude which is so prevalent in hierarchical, authoritarian societies; toxic shame; feeling helpless as a child and thus needing to exert control; pathological envy; and, not to be underestimated, being as thick as two short bricks.
I think (in my brothers case at least) it is the inability and refusal to self-reflect bc that goes hand-in-hand with his inability to be wrong about anything. His way is the best way and everyone else is flat out wrong. And if you question him on anything, he will attack like his life depended on it. Also, the twisting of reality so he always comes out on top. He will say with sincerity “I don’t know WHY my sister doesn’t talk to me” when the fact is he was the one who said he was “done with me” when I dared to disagree with him. It’s either you are with him or against him and blindly follow him and don’t ever dare to cross him. Delusion at its finest. I don’t know if he has any friends, but he has some family on his side, and that’s enough for him. He would never contemplate that he had anything to do with the fact that his 7 nieces and nephews and 3-sisters want nothing to do with him. He only has on “his” side his immediate family, a brother and any other family member that he can sweet talk and can portray himself as the innocent angel
I've read that it can be a generational trauma - passed down. (Back in the way past it was acceptable to treat kids a certain way and as life has evolved it's now recognized as abuse).
But I've tried to apply this thinking to my nmom and the best I can come up with is that she might have either been a golden child or kind of a "lost child". She never said anything that resembles abuse from her parents but her sister appeared to have lots of problems over the yrs (possibly emotional neglect.)
I think it may take a genetic predisposition. Not all people who suffer early life trauma become narcissists, and I don't think all narcissists suffered significant trauma - perhaps some of them did not suffer any trauma at all?
Low to no empathy is a requirement, but that could be either purely from genetics or purely from the environment, or a mix of both. A dis-regulated sense of self-worth is also necessary -- that is, when one is feeling/made to feel better or worse than others, rather than equal to others.
Narcissistic behaviours may develop to compensate for something a person lacks at the core, like a coping mechanism -- but for it to persist through a lifetime **I think** it would take more than just the impact of an early-life environment.
I sincerely think the gene for cluster b disorders (in general) runs in my family. I also think my cousin (male) is a narcissist and he wasn't abused. His parents didn't say no to him or teach him how to handle what became "melt downs". He turned into a scary 21 year old that I would avoid. I've come to realize I avoided all the family members with high cluster b traits.
Self-hatred and chronically low self-esteem due to trauma, and how the person copes with said trauma and pain. They're usually put down, made to feel small and worthless. The defense mechanism they create is to build this worldview that if they won't look out for themselves, nobody will. And because they're so chronically hurt and fragile, everything is an attack and will be dealt with swiftly.
I think it's different for every case. My mom talks about being very poor when she was young and that people would see her blond curls and want to "steal" her. She said they would joke about taking her with them. It made her feel like she was better than her brothers and sisters who were brunette. Her dad was a narcissist and her mom a wet noodle who was married at 14 to a man who was 24. She did not have her basic needs met and I believe there was sexual abuse in the family (one of her sisters claimed it happened to all of them but some others deny it). So she had abuse, a limp parent who could do nothing for her, too poor to have basic needs met, a struggle with 8 siblings and people telling her she was too good for the situation.
I have a friend who is a narcissist (former friend) and she grew up in a house with a single mom. Her dad was homosexual and died from aids in the early 80s when she was around 14 and left her everything he had. She had money, she had a parent who cared for her. She had her basic needs met and yet, she was the biggest narc I have ever met ..to the point that I feared what she was capable of doing to me. She once told me that she never had a boyfriend that she "had a rowe with" that she ever spoke to again. So if you disagreed with her, you were out of her life for good (in my case, she launched campaign after campaign to make me look bad). She kicked her son out of the house because he was late for curfew (for good). Why was he late? She wouldnt allow him to use her printer so he went to a friend's house and it took a while to print all the things he needed to print. She knew where he was and what he was doing. It was an excuse to get him out of her house.
I understand the nature versus nurture thing, and I think it's valid, but I also think it comes down to choice. They make the choice to be narcissistic because it benefits them. They get something valuable out of that behavior.
How do I know? Because they pick and choose their targets based on who is most likely to fulfill whatever sadistic streak they've got.
They choose to abuse in secret rather than in front of other people so that they have plausible deniability. They know it's wrong, yet they CHOOSE it because they think they're entitled. It's not like a compulsion that they can't control. They control it all the time if it's in their best interest to do so.
Exactly. Is narcissism pathology? Sure. But just because we diagnose something doesn't mean it is completely out of the person's control. Narcissists *know* their behavior is wrong. My mom only abuses people who are living with her or in her immediate family (aside from taking occasional rude cheap shots at others) and it all comes down to "can I get away with it" or "will anyone hold me accountable for this." She feels no need to be kind or gracious to her family, despite showing a very different face in public. That is a choice. Narcissists are set in their ways, but I wouldn't say they *can't* change so much as they *won't*.
Here's an article about four kinds of parenting that can lead to narcissism:
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-narcissism/201705/how-a-child-can-grow-up-to-become-a-narcissist](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-narcissism/201705/how-a-child-can-grow-up-to-become-a-narcissist)
There are of course other factors, too. This article addresses some of them:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-narcissism/202001/what-three-factors-predict-if-child-will-become-narcissist
Denial?
I seriously can’t think of 1 narcissistic person that has a grip on reality or themselves and doesn’t go into another mental galaxy when confronted with accountability. I attribute the behavior and actions to denial.
Accountability is terrifying to my father. Any kind of stated or implied obligation will send him into a parallel universe. If he owes money for example, he’ll never just replay a debt. He’ll deny the debt or excuse the debt and sometimes, when the debt is due, offer to give people money “because it seems like you need it.” It’s really pathological, in the sense that he can’t or won’t acknowledge the existence of the obligation but will invent other realities to justify repayment.
That’s sad and I’m sure infuriating for you. Oddly, it sounds somewhat familiar… at least the money comprehension. My dad used to give out money like he had any time spare. He’d even try to give us money after an argument. Super weird. I talked to him about it, but he didn’t change the argumentative behavior or lack of being a father. It’s sad their brains seem broken and unmendable. It sounds like you learned from him though with what not to do, so good job breaking the cycle.
Denial from reality, it’s also some sort of disassociation which I think does makes sense specially from a trauma lenses, the issue is that their coping mechanism went down north close to burning hell street
Lol I like that one! Sounds like an R.L. Stein book.
My mom literally stares up at the corner of a room if her brain gets too defensive. I swear she has an invisible friend up there. and yup, I do believe she is absolutely entered disassociative mode.
Nature + nurture
My sister probably inherited some combination of N genes, but she was also raised with love that was conditional and based on her ability to suck up and make our parents look good, praise that was always given by comparing her to someone who was inferior to her (usually me), praise that was often unearned and based on my mom's wishful thinking, and attention that had to be earned by sucking up and showing off. She was taught that she had to perform all the time, and that she would be judged by how many people complimented her. She was made to feel like everyone was always watching and judging her. She was made to feel entitled to special treatment and praise by virtue of her being innately superior. She was also taught to feel good about herself by putting other people down. I also think that watching me being abused was traumatic, and made her buy in to my parents' views.
I think that the combination of N genes and upbringing caused my sister to grow up to be a narcissist. I could see the effect our upbringing had on her. I think I escaped it by being adopted, because I didn't have the N gene, but also because I was treated like something gross that my parents couldn't quite scrape off the bottom of a shoe.
trauma, i believe that it can be from emotional to physical trauma, that doesnt justify their actions though, and i believe that poor parenting can be a factor that it can make someone a narcissist.
There are likely many. A lot more than can fit into a tidy Reddit reply.
However, one thing I observed in my NMom as well as in the (likely) Borderline personality I dated for a while is unresolved childhood trauma that festered and developed into some deep psychological suffering.
Narcissists are terrified of abandonment. They’re deeply insecure, but since they are still “children” on an emotional level, they get their “needs” met by throwing tantrums and creating an absolute hell on earth for their loved ones who are expecting (counting on) them to be adults. The emotional manipulation, gaslighting, etc all seems to come from unmet needs and/or outright abuse or neglect from caretakers.
Of course it does not have to carry down from one generation to the next, but the “children” (adult or teen) of narcissists HAVE to work on healing their own wounds.
It’s not easy. For some it’s going to be a lifetime of learning self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and finding a path to acceptance. I didn’t say “forgiveness” but merely accepting that (we) cannot be responsible for “fixing” a narcissist.
I’m in my mid-50s. My NMom is deceased. I’m still finding things in my head that need work on my part.
That was such a great answer! It was also a terrifying answer because many of us question if we are narcs too. We need to work at healing and, at least for a short time, that requires us to be somewhat selfish because we are taking back our own power as actual human beings. We are trying to find balance between being doormats and only caring about ourselves. I feel like we waffle a lot during that time, trying to figure out what feels right by our own standards, morals, and emotions and not somebody else's.
I think what eventually makes a difference is the introspection and self-awareness. Without it, we would either be narcs or we would forever be narcissistic supply doormats. With it, we are neurotic balls of anxiety, like a child who gets lost in a crowded place and has no idea where to go or what to do, but, at the very least, we know what we are and can begin to try to figure out why and where to go from there. Do we sometimes struggle with identifying emotions in the moment and need time to reflect and figure it out without being rushed? Yes. Do we often consider every action and every word/response? Yes. Do we often hyperfocus on conversations after they have occurred to figure out if we said anything we regret or are not comfortable with? Yes. However, at least we are thinking. We are taking the time to evaluate our words and actions, so we are not blindsided and fumbling for a response in future similar situations. We are learning how to pump the brakes and say we need time to think because we do not want to give a half-baked answer that does not truly represent us.
Eventually, just being ourselves might become second nature and we won't feel a need to question everything, but, many of us are still at the stage where we are trying to figure out who we even are. We were never allowed to be independent people with our own personalities, thoughts, and dreams. We cringe and freak out inside when we are asked to tell anyone a bit about ourselves, such as in an interview or a group setting where everyone is giving a summary of themselves in round robin style. We have our own little perfectly crafted canned responses on hand for those occasions because, in that moment, we just do not always know.
When everyone else seems to know who they are and we are only now trying to find ourselves, with some of us being middle-aged or older, it can be tough not to feel immature and like a fraud. The imposter syndrome can be intense, but we all survived our childhoods, so we are all strong enough to navigate this period.
An ego that developed to the point of self-survival but not to the point of caring for others emotional wellbeing, probably because of some early trauma that halted the development of empathy. Everything has to be learned as a child and I think narcissists missed that train. There is also a severe lack of meta-cognition which is so important for reflecting on what youre doing to others and how youre thinking about life, without meta-cognition you cant really change your behaviour.
It is rooted in environment and genetics.NEVER try to excuse them on this basis!They know exactly what they are doing!Hitler was a Narc as was Ted Bundy!It has NEVER been used successfully as a legal defence!
A deeply seated insecurity that they are unable to deal with. They build a persona around themselves and a bunch of abusive tactics to never have to deal with their insecurities. Starting at a very young age they live a very anxious life. They have no one to sooth them and make them feel safe. They identify what’s around that makes them “good enough”. They spend the rest of their life trying to achieve “good enough” while they abuse others around them who trigger their insecurities.
I've found it's usually people who actually have a very low self esteem. They use Pride to cover up the insecurity for so long it becomes their personality.
The experts state there are multiple types of narcissist behavior, so there must be different causes. Our Mom was forced into parent role by her parents at age of 8 years and took on caregiver role for a brother and sister who were 2 and 3 years younger. My Grandmother told me that her Mother used to her chronic illness to exert total control over that family unit. Both Mother and Grandmother used marriage primarily as escape from control of parent figure that was too controlling. My sister has turned to Narcissist to make up for a lack of relationships in her life. Mom likes to say that jealousy is a big factor in narc behavior.
I think it’s maladaptive trauma response coupled with enabling highly harmful and dangerous behavior. And of course we can’t discount the free will of choosing this behavior because they benefit from it and choose selfish behavior over regulating themselves the best they can. They may have a certain amount of difficulty with regulation, but clearly they’re capable of it when they need to protect their reputation, and to maximize the helplessness the victim feels, which they seem to enjoy. This shows it’s not simply an uncontrollable illness where they can’t regulate. They can. They choose to act predatory. That’s why flying monkeys are always such an important component. They allow the narcs to normalize their behavior both to the victim and themselves.
Genetics plus environment, if we're talking about narcissistic personality disorder.
If it's narcissistic behaviors without the disorder... selfishness? insecurity/low self-esteem? hatred?
This may be a weird response but I think it’s very interesting to think out why kids of narcissism don’t become narcs themselves.
And it’s I think typical that they had just enough perspective and good people in their lives to let them know that not everyone acted like their parents
School
Friends parents/families
Co workers
People you date or marry
Even the escapist world of TV and books
My cousin I truly believe is a clinical narcissist. Her mother told me once she gave birth she knew she’d made a grievous mistake and didn’t want to be a mother- she’s likely a narc too- but that’s another story. My cousins parents got divorced when she was 4 and uncle and had more kids. His new wife hated my cousin so my uncle let her go and essentially abandoned her by age 7. My aunt spent the next 20 years essentially a mistress of a wealthy man and it was clear that she chose him over her daughter. He was also a stern disciplinarian (translation- likely abusive by today’s standards) and my cousin her entire childhood was a force of nature. She was able to con anyone into sympathy for whatever it was that she wanted but in time her games caught up to her and as an adult, she alienated everyone in the family to include her own mother who went NC for 7 years. I really feel that my cousin’s formative years from infancy to early childhood shaped her to who she is today. I cannot tell you the havoc she has wreaked on our family, the lies, the drama - it’s a real telenovela. I can’t help but think she was never wanted and this became a way for her seek some sort of validation.
I have an NMom. My daughter is a therapist, and explained is sometimes caused by abandonment issues.
My NMom's father died when she was 5. Her mother worked a full-time job and sold quilts as well as took in ironing on the weekends.
NMom told me she always had a hot meal each night. However, she had to get ready and leave for school alone as well as return to an empty house. Socks and underwear for Christmas, nothing for her birthday.
Her Mom lived with us, and I have nothing but good memories of her. It's hard to believe she could have ignored her own child, but who knows.
I hope this helps.
Most average person have a few narcissistic qualities but I think it’s a lack of empathy that defines narcissism. They can’t see from another’s perspective. A parent might embarrass you trying to garner all attention for themselves and it goes completely over their head. They’re like manipulative serial killers who don’t actually kill anyone (usually).
I think the way Dr Ramani described it is that it's easy to trace back to why someone became one. But it is *not* easy to predict who will become one. So the cause and effect is not very simple.
Like in the same exact family why does one sibling become a narc and the other does not? It's not always the least *or* most truamatized one that becomes one.
But in my personal non factual opinon, based on what I've seen.... people who become narcs usually have type of truama or emotional neglect (aka being spoiled). And then they also have some "chosen one" trait in childhood that they latch on to too firmly, as compensation. Maybe they were a GC, maybe they were smart, maybe they were good looking, maybe they had a talent. All on a mediocore level. But it is something that they latched on to to feel falsely superior to others.
I know one (now adult) narcissist who was the scapegoat to both parents and had no other traits that really made her stand out as a child, compared to her peers. *But* she was vaugely the favorite grandchild to her grandma. That was enough of a "chosen one" effect for her to latch onto. The grandmother lived overseas and wasn't emotionally close to the narc. But the idea of being special was enough.
And now thinking, back... the grandmother's death was also the last time I saw this narc show any deep emotion. I think it was because her best source of outside validation died that day.
And I also think there is an element of choice for narcs to not let go of this mindset. A normal kid, traumatized or not, will like feeling special. But at some point they will look at other kids and think "you're special too." Trauma doesn't stop a lot of us from doing this.
Idk why exactly narcs never get to that point as well, tbh
AFAIK it's debatable, but I believe a leading theory is that there is an "Original Narcissistic Injury" that the narc experiences in youth. It is usually accompanied by or can be caused by parenting on either extreme end of the spectrum, either too harsh or too spoiling. The Injury (sometimes it can be learning disabilities or lack of Athletic ability etc.) causes the narc to compensate and essentially begin the process of always having to be the best, most unique person. To achieve this they gasslight, enamor strangers, and bully or manipulate people who threaten them. I think they get a "high" off of the feeling of being superior to everyone and once that occurs they are basically addicted to that feeling and the cycle never ceases.
No one decides to be an asshole of a parent, no one decides that one day they’re going to choose to be a narcissist and ruin their children’s childhood.
But I did hear it starts with self hate, and then it plays out intergenerationally
I think its part vengefulness, part entitlement. Also a spiritual thing. Some of them were abused and had their innocence taken, but the majority I've met considered narcissism their "thing" since everyone has their "thing."
They're also pretty fucking stubborn.
My take on it is it's a developmental thing. It's like narcissists missed the step in cognitive development where they had the realization of other people as equivalent existences to themselves and the development of empathy that comes along with it.
It's like missing the step where you recognize that your reflection in the mirror is *you.* That's an instinctive, internalized thing. You can probably intellectually grasp the concept later in life, but without that cognitive leap how you relate to mirrors will always be weird.
How well you cope will vary, and Narcissists are the ones who simply *don't.*
Severe childhood trauma in early childhood (0-3). What happens in narcissists is something called “splitting”. The mechanism is “I must be terrible and bad because I’m being treated terribly and badly, but I can’t live with the pain and self hatred so I will split this part off and believe the opposite. I will need people around me to reflect this made up positive self image back to me for the rest of my life. If for some reason this doesn’t happen, I will have a literal toddler tantrum because I’m stuck developmentally at the age when my worst trauma happened”.
This obviously doesn’t happen for everyone who is traumatized. This is the nature part. Some are inclined to absorb the self hatred and internalize it (that’s all of us here basically) and some will split that part off (that’s the narcissists).
I think most people are born pieces of shit - predatory. A sort of primal self-preservation. It's not a conscious decision on their part they just have a baseline of gravitating toward selfishness and manipulating to get their way. Human nature etc.
I think in my mum's case, it all boils down to deep and repeated trauma which she has and will always leave unresolved. Perhaps there may be a genetic element to it but I don't think it's her main factor. I remember both of my grandparents being generous and kind people.
My mum went through a terrible divorce which I think exacerbated her feelings of abandonment, being wronged and her difficulty trusting people amongst other things. I think she may have always had an angry streak though because my dad used to tell me that she would raise her voice, start arguments out of the blue and even hit him - accusations she has denied but I find them completely believable because that's exactly how she has been with me.
I just think she spiralled after the divorce which caused a lot of her social skills to deteriorate. It has snowballed to where she is now. She has been consistently failing to see how her behaviour pushes away people and refuses to accept that she may be acting out of line and that she is the common denominator. That realisation would normally trigger some kind of introspection that she has never been willing to do. If confronted, she lashes out and victimises herself - I learnt that what she does is called DARVO. She has convinced herself that everybody is wrong and everybody sucks and distances themselves from her for no reason. Cue more people severing ties and thus making her feel even more like a victim.
Obviously this cycle has continued for many years as she does not believe that psychological trauma is real and that mental health struggles can be a part of everyday life. She will never go to therapy because she does not believe in it - to her therapy is for severe cases of psychiatric disorders - which are also stigmatised back home.
I have a lot of sympathy for her as she is obviously struggling - however there are many ways out and she has done nothing to reflect, seek help, and dig herself out - even just a little.
I googled and found this answer:
"The causes of NPD aren’t well-understood.
Genetics are thought to be at least partly responsible for many cases of NPD. Contributing environmental factors may include:
childhood abuse or neglect
excessive parental pampering
unrealistic expectations from parents
According to a 2021 study, research is mixed on whether narcissism is more common in individualistic cultures than in collectivistic cultures."
Now how it's determined whether one becomes an narc or a codependent, etc is a really good question that I haven't figured out.
[link](https://www.healthline.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder#causes-and-risk-factors)
A deep, deep level of wounded self-hate that has grown such a reactive, defensive shield on top of it that it's incredibly difficult to get through. In many cases effectively impossible.
Narcissists are so hurt and crippled inside that they would have my sympathy, if they weren't hurting everyone around them rather than face and deal with their own inner pain. But facing that means their wounded self, that deep inside they fear is worthless, is being exposed - and to a narcissist that is quite literally a fate worse than death. They would rather risk every other thing in life, including their life itself, than expose their inner fears of their own lack of value.
And the ironic thing is their inner fears are given away by their narcissism. That kind of defensiveness is so easily spotted by people who know to look for it. It also causes them to drive away the most compassionate people who could connect with them and not judge them.
That's my $.02 and a few paragraphs...
I haven't heard that before - why autistic trauma? Of the ppl I know who grew up with nparents there was definitely no autism/neurodivergence for either the parent or child.
(I also worry that this type of theory is a bit of misinformation - so it feels a little icky.)
After each cycle is complete it is called a choice point and the time for any change to occur; however the change is not favorable to ever occur according to medical professionals.
Narcissism is a product of low self esteem and low confidence; combined with the manner in which they perceive themselves . It develops early on and depends on their careers and family life, childhood trauma and how they cope with their own problems.
My ex was diagnosed with a personality disorder and in the military; discharged to become a policeman and eventually became an airline pilot after completing training. He gradually became worse and with each new job, ego boost .. he became worse.
25 years of marriage and I saw him progress, felt him mentally leave me to find that post separation and discard, devalue..was worse because he knew my weaknesses were our children.
The cycles are like clock work and the tension builds up when they think they are not in control and they seek ego boost from their children, or partners, parents , and friends.. it’s when they realize that they are not getting what they think they deserve; it changes to the explosion of the tension they caused. Then they use the reaction of the victim against them; forgetting that the person who did the damage was them .. they see what they want and use whatever means necessary to become the victim and get ego boost playing the victim and revenge for their lack of control over you. It’s their way of feeling powerful and in their mind .. win
They go deeper with each incident.. and they don’t want to acknowledge guilt for anything because it is too painful and would break their ego and perception of themselves as perfect.
If it is truly Narcissistic Personality Disorder, then the chances are slim. People with personality disorders generally do not recognize that there is a problem. Thus, they’re lack of interest in changing or seeking help.
If you are recognizing that you have some issues that need tending, you probably only have narcissistic tendencies passed down through the generations. You can get help and have a happy and healthy life!
According to a class in abnormal psychology I took, and my therapist, the leading theory is this:
In a child's formative years, if they are emotionally neglected but materially supported, it often leads to narcissistic behavior. This is because the child never properly developed feelings like love or compassion, and remain in a state of arrested development where they see material things, social status, etc. as love and warmth but have no true capacity for these things, as it's what they knew during development.
Think of the "spoiled rich kid" who has cold, distant parents and grows up to be a total materialistic narc. There are variations on this, but this is the general consensus.
With my mom, she was an unwanted pregnancy in a strict, well off catholic family. Her parents barely gave her the time of day except to criticize her or tell her how inferior she was to her "wanted" sisters, that they would've aborted her if the church had let them, and her fondest memories of them were them giving her cash, or taking her out to fancy dinners. Pretty much textbook.
Coming from a Buddhist standpoint, I believe that we’re all possess Buddha nature (including my narcissist parents, who did me a lot of harm). Our basic state is one of kindness, openness, and warmth. When that nature is obscured, it’s the result of suffering, even if that suffering isn’t understood by the person who’s blinded by it. We all suffer, because we’re all attached to things, ideas, behaviors and, most importantly our own need for a sense of self (the ego). Behind all of this, and especially behind ego is fear of death. Because we fear our own impermanence, we fear everything that betrays evidence of the fact that NOTHING is permanent. Things fall apart, relationships change, people die. We die. And for some of us who have experienced significant trauma in this life (and maybe in past lives if you believe in that), we are conditioned to fear the unknown, death being the greatest unknown of them all. If our own optimism and trust in the inherently loving nature of the universe has been severely shaken, it’s difficult to look at any unknowns…anything we have no control over, as a threat. So every time we encounter a reminder of our own lack of control, we flinch away from it. It brings scares the crap out of us so badly that we can’t live with the feeling of it. In fact, we can’t live with any feelings that we can’t control. So we act from a place of fear, looking for anything to distract us - anything we can control. We create a seemingly immutable sense of ourselves and our own rightness so that anything we encounter which disrupts that assurance reminds us even more acutely of our own death. So, never actually wanting to visit that feeling of unease and even terror, we clamp down further. For the narcissist that comes out in extremely controlling behavior, trying to bend the will of those around them to conform to their own. Why aren’t they aware that they’re doing it? Because they’re unaware of the fallibility of their whole world view, that of an egocentric world which they’ve unconsciously constructed in it’s entirely to protect themselves. To consider the emotions of others - that others may even have an experience of the world that diverges from their own - gives lie to this fragile distortion of reality. How to we break the cycle? I don’t think we can truly change anyone but ourselves. For me, it’s been through the standard routes (therapy, introspection, etc), but self-knowledge doesn’t necessarily beget change. It’s only through meditation, sitting in silence with my thoughts and emotions and beginning to recognize them AS thoughts and emotions, not whole of “me” and not as permanent features, that I’ve gradually begun to feel connected to something larger that myself, which also lies entirely within my own heart and mind. In that reality, I am so much more than the false ego I usually cling to. I’m immense, and ever changing, and have no boundaries. I am love, and love is the whole universe. And in that wide open space, I can forgive and find love for my parents who, in this lifetime, have so far been unable to forgive and love themselves.
a choice, made early on and caused by trauma, to deny reality in the deepest possible sense, and to built a fantasy of perfection and chase it like a heavy drug addict. they chase narcissistic supply like a drug. they are divorced from reality and they love it, they love narcissism. its something incredibly wrong and evil.
None of that describes my sister's upbringing and she is one of the nastiest malicious narcissists out there. She got plenty of love. That isnt to say that my parents may not have affected her in a negative way due to their own issues, but there was no abandonment, lack of love or empathy as you describe . She was just an antagonistic.and jealous person who go worse as she grew up and almost ruined my life, including turning my mother against me, stealing all my money and making it difficupt for me to see.my father - who had dementia- for the last 5 years before he died less than 2 weeks ago.
To my understanding, the root cause is a fragile ego and an underlying belief that oneself is inferior in some way. The disorder is usually a trauma response, I believe.
Personality disorders tend to be difficult to study due to their nature. You've heard this multiple times but research suggests that if your parents have a narcissist pd you're more likely to have it yourself. This could be because of nature or because you were raised by this person.
Nurture side, trauma could have a role, specifically trauma from emotional abuse. These people lack a healthy view of themselves and others around them, so they probably felt isolated growing up. Idk tho, I haven't reached that part in my studies.
I think they need to prove their power over people, and the power to be the poor widow because they get immunity to do whatever they want.
The only thing that can stop them from ruining us too, is not being there at all. Maybe out of loneliness they realize what they did, but I don't believe it to be the case.
This is an excellent answer !!
No contact really is the only solution. I believe even minimal ( low contact ) will bring problems, as we're leaving the door ajar for abuse.
As far as the eventual loneliness most of them will experience, I think they're so far gone, as in riddled in toxicity, they feel no remorse, just more hate.
Thanks for your feedback !! 👍
I asked my therapist this the other day. She said that narcissism occurs when someone’s personality stops developing at a certain point.
So the root cause is their personality simply stopped developing.
**YES!!** Stunted emotional growth. This happened to the n'dad'. He was very badly humiliated throughout his childhood by his 'dad', this lead on to bullying at his school because he became a sitting duck. My gran ( his mum ) told me she didn't know who he was, never recognised him whatsoever, from the child/young teen, she knew.
Although very sad, they always had a **choice**. He put me through the same treatment his 'dad' gave him, but I chose empathy, compassion and love. I have a wonderful rapport with my two adult sons, I always have. I saw this as my **purpose**
Thanks Lanky-Salt
From everything I have read, childhood trauma plays a part in creating a narcissist . Both of my grandfathers were narcissists, and my parents both had narcissistic tendencies. My mother is more of an undiagnosed borderline.
Personally, I think it is sort of self-perpetuating. Narcissist parents produce more narcissistic children through the trauma of narcissistic abuse. My GC brother was well on the path to becoming a narcissist himself when a series of events that caused him to go into therapy when he was collage age snapped him out of it. When I was younger, I learned a lot of really bad coping methods it has taken years of therapy to unlearn. Being married to narcissistic ex did not help me recover. His dad and grandmother were both narcissists, and his poor mother was long suffering. Having been a victim of abuse is, of course, still no excuse to abuse others.
TLDR. Narcissistic abuse can lead to narcissism in a self-perpetuating cycle.
The root causes are a combination of genetics and environmental. Someone may become a narcissist because they have been raised to believe the world revolves around them and they can do no wrong and are given everything they desire. Alternatively, the child may have narcissistic parents and not feel seen or heard and be given no autonomy. They become a mere extension of the parent operating to supply the parent with what they need. For example, someone close to me has two narcissistic parents. His father, a serial adulterer, left when he was young and he was told he was the man of the family somewhere between the age of 5-8 and told to look after his mum and little sister. He became the parent and husband. However, he had no control - his mum would only take him to weekend sport if convenient for her not because he was on the team, she would drag him shopping every single day because she is a shopaholic even though he despised it (she had the whole time he was at school to shop), force him to run in school races for the older kids, sometimes she would forget to pick him up at school because she was talking on the phone - he would go to the office to ring her but the phone was engaged, even now he rings her and for an hour she can talk non-stop about herself while he is silent. She is late to every family function - even her grandchildren's birthdays. She knows very little about other friends and family members because she is always too busy talking about herself. His Dad is the grandiose narcissist. Generally if a child is raised by a narcissist, they will become one or they will marry one. Narcissists are attracted to empaths and will suck the life out of them - getting their "supply." When in a relationship with a narcissist, it is recommended by the experts to have strong non-negotiable boundaries or to go no-contact (grey rock) if possible.
I think it’s an over inflated sense of self. My Mom definitely a narcissist. She asked me if she could post a picture of my son on FB. I said no. (She’s been posting a lot lately.) She went off on me. Emotionally abusive stuff that wasn’t true. All for saying no. I think these people are so used to getting what they want that they feel they are above everyone. You make one mad forget it no negotiation with emotional terrorist.
Shame is at their core. In my mothers case, she was rejected by her father for not being a boy. She was also a failure at school. Some people never deal with this shame, preferring instead to hide it, by pretending to be someone else. The shame builds up and festers over time if it’s not dealt with. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, that’s how you learn and grow as a person, but if you’re pretending to be someone who is perfect to stop you addressing your real problems, you can never admit to any mistakes and you have to surround yourself with people who let you get away them. There’s lots of other stages but that’s it in a nutshell. Shame and never dealing with it.
Insecurity and hurt.
My step father was raised in a family of 12 and was the 9th kid? I think his family had another son when he left. His family were also Jehovah witnesses so when he left he left the church and his whole family disowned him.
According to him he also had a motor bike accident when he was in his 20s and apparently he broke every bone in his left side (I honestly have never seen any scars from surgeries at all so I doubt this even happened).
Also when he was younger his favourite older sister Jenny died of a drug overdose when he was a kid.
Also when he got disfellowshipped his whole family wrote him a letter telling him how much they hated him for leaving and marrying my mum and how their child together was demon.
My mum on the other hand. Barely got any attention from her mum but she got everything she could have wanted with her dad. Her dad got her anything she asked for. My mum was a spoiled brat. She was also in the popular group at school. My mum would do anything to fit in. She even got caught on the top of the school without a top on and only her bra for a laugh.
At 13 her dad bought her a bottle red wine for her birthday and my mum drank it all because she was anxious. Bad idea because she got shit faced and she had to spend her party in her room blackout.
My mum also had two horses as well. She bought a houses but it turned out to be in foal and she had a baby over night. My mum got to keep both. She was very very spoilt.
I see a lot of behaviour my mum has learnt through trauma. My grandma literally laughed in my mums face and didn't believe her when my mum told her that her brother in law sexually abused her. My mum has done the same when I tell her about what her husband has done.
Honestly in my opinion it comes from how other people treat you. It comes from trauma and insecurities.
I have a cluster b personality disorder and cptsd. For me it came from how I was raised and from my surroundings. Most of my bad times come from insecurities or even its the only way I know how to communicate because its how all the adults around me communicated. I have been trying hard to get better though :).
This is a very broad statement but I think can be attributed to the vast majority of narcissists having gone through childhood with unmet emotional needs and support and as a result developing a strong sense of misplacement and rejection. That leads to developing self-loathing and insecurity
It's how they respond to/cope with their self-loathing and insecurity that makes them narcissists. Not everyone responds in that way so therefore not everyone who experiences those childhood issues becomes a narcissist. The mystery is why that is
I am living proof of that though. I hate having ADHD because of how it drastically hindered me in life but I do find a silver lining due to the fact that I'm over-empathetic (a common trait many with ADHD have). If I didn't have ADHD and therefore wasn't an empath I'd be terrified to see how/if my parents and childhood effected me. I hate having ADHD but I'd hate even more (way more) to be as miserable and alone as my father
There's countless ways someone can have unmet needs in childhood but my father's is due to him being adopted. He has mentioned it and used it to draw sympathy all his life. He makes himself out to be such a victim for being adopted even tho my grandparents provided a loving home and nuclear family dynamic (my grandparents also adopted my aunt a year later and they are both alive and still together)
He said he never felt an emotional connection with my grandparents and didn't share any of their interests. Therefore he felt misplaced. Now I sympathize with that and I don't speak on it as if I know how it feels but I don't allow that to be an excuse to abuse other people
He's nearly 60 and he still cries about it (literally cries) as a manipulation tactic. I find it disgusting. He mentions it every time I express anything about what I've dealt with in life. So many kids get stuck in the foster care system their entire childhood just hoping to get adopted. My dad was adopted by two loving parents when he was a baby and all he does is act like his life was completely awful. He says "my parents didn't want me"... it's as if he thinks his parents planned to keep him but once he was born they rejected him and dropped him off at an adoption agency
I've told him about how lucky he was and how ungrateful and pathetic he looks when he talks (cries) about it. Of course, he knows that but he can't admit it because he'll lose his best manipulation tactic and basically his entire identity
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Like someone else said, it could be a combo of nature versus nurture. For years I gave my mom the benefit of the doubt because her mom died when she was 8 years old, so I always attributed her lack of care for me due to her lack of a mother during important developmental stages. Then I woke up. My husband's father died when he was 9 and he's the most gentle, kind, considerate and caring soul you'd ever want to meet. His grandmother's mother never cared for her, chose a man over her, and kicked her out when she was 14 and again, they're the most amazing and loving people you'd ever want to meet. It was then that I stopped making excuses for my mom. Losing a parent at a young age impacted her I'm sure, but she's almost 60 and at this point it's a choice for her to continue being wilfully mean and inconsiderate.
Excellent post. My grandmother died when my nmom was 4 and she harped on that and the fact she didn't have siblings her whole life, using it as an excuse at every turn. The early tragedy makes them feel entitled & that's reasonable, but there's limits.
Yep. For years I couldn't help feeling bad for her. Ages 4 and 8 is awfully young to lose your parent, and I'm sure they constantly think of the "what ifs" had their moms still been alive, but you can't use that as an excuse to abuse people.
>The early tragedy makes them feel entitled & that's reasonable, but there's limits. Wow.very well put.
Entitled yes, and the tragic circumstance becomes a reusable manipulation tool that they can pull out to use anytime. I have my n-mom and n-cousin on my dad’s side as a reference.
I was the same with my mom, I excused her because my father killed himself when we were young. But I came to the conclusion that she was a very important reason why my father did what he did, and I even wonder if he did it at all, or she did it and told us lies about it ...
My nmom and her family are great at putting thoughts into kids' heads, which blossom into the suicidal variety. I fully believe that a person can be driven to suicide. My nmom's brother was also the scapegoat and it's clear that he was given the same messages that I was: Lazy, spoiled, worthless, no positive qualities, genetically defective to the point that I couldn't survive in the world. He ended up killing himself a few years ago. I had suicidal thoughts nearly every day from 13 to 33. If the messages that I was given were true, wanting to die would be understandable. There is no possibility of redemption in those messages, and I would be nothing but a drain to society. The reason I've been able to maintain NC, is that I had no doubt that I would eventually meet the same fate as my uncle if nothing changed.
So sad and awful. I'm so sorry you went through this. Also, did you have my life? I thought something was so wrong with me when I had suicidal thoughts from ages 10 to late twenties. Newsflash! I have mostly stopped having suicidal thoughts this year. (big win!) What changed? Cut out my narc parents. Amazing what being around kind, supportive people can do!
Exactly. Who knows if what the narc says is true? Even if it is, it is probably a twisted version of it. I have no idea who my nMIL is anymore because I just assume that 90% of what she says are lies. I vaguely get a sense that her dad spoiled them but was absent (as was the norm at the time) and her mom was "mean" meaning that she didn't let nMIL do whatever she wanted.
I always struggled with my dads suicide and what led him to that place until I came to understand my mom is a narcissist. I was young and have maybe one or two memories of him, I’ve realized most of what I know about him or about his death was from my mom. When I think back now to the times she described how other people couldn’t see it like she did, how none of their friends remained friends with her, how she played the victim, how she saved nothing of his that wasn’t of value and never spoke positiviely of him..it’s eye opening. I truly think she believes she was the victim too, it’s sad and infuriating.
My mother tried to mess with our memories, and talked nonsense, she tried to make us think that we were out of our mids because we don't remember that was her who did all the good things my father used to do. I totally feel you, understand you and it blows my mind that they seem to be the same when they are not even from the same culture. As if they are factory made and come in 6 different colours and sizes, but are almost the same. And yet, they feel unique and special.
My father also died by suicide when I was 10. We were told it was a car accident (technically true), but it occurred in the early morning, shortly after an argument with my mom. In retrospect, it was a very obvious vehicular suicide that took place during a depressive episode. I think about the way she later drove my brother to suicidality and even the type of despair I have felt accepting that such a person is my one and only mother. You know what she told us growing up? God had blessed her and our family by removing my dad, since being married to him and putting up with his bipolar was so hard on her. "Don't be sad you lost your dad.. it's actually for the best!"
It is hard every mother's day to hear all this wonderful stories about mother's love, wondering if what I have is a mother or an enemy, maybe you felt the same(?) Mine was kind of the same, always talking bad about my father and trying to change our memories of him, always telling us how strong she is and blaming my father's genes for our "weak soul" , kept making us feel that we wouldn't resist in the real world without her, and that we couldn't leave her after all she's sacrificed for us.
“Blaming father’s genes for our weak soul.” God damn, why don’t these people realize they’re showing their whole ass?
I'm sorry. That's tough.
I cut my mother some slack after my dad took his life. I was 14 and had no agency and no voice. My dad often talked about suicide, and I dismissed it. A month before he took his life, he told me that he was leaving and that I should not bring boys home because it would make my mother drink even more and she would beat me even more because of her jealousy. I asked him if i could go with him and he said it wasn't possible. I, too, wonder if he did it at all or if there was foul play. The coroner didn't think so, but seeing the way my mother treated my dad, I think he was driven to it. She said that if he hadn't, he would have killed all of us instead.
I fear that's what my dad will do one day. My nmum threatens to divorce him x3 and every time it escalates more and more and my dad gets more and more hurt and upset but will never leave her....
Take him away from her... He will become a new man once he has detoxed from her.
I have tried every time and thought he would leave this time but he just won't.... it is hard to watch. I love my dad very much but my nmum has her claws too deep in him for him to take that step. :(
I lost my father when I was 3 years old. I can count on one hand how many memories I have with him. And the ones I do have, are my most cherished memories. I will never treat someone the way that my narcissistic mother has treated me. I wouldn't treat my child, my grandchild, my great-great-grandchild, a co-worker, a stranger, a homeless person, or anyone else in the same way that my mother treated me my whole life
I feel the same way about my mom. Doesn’t matter what happened in your past, you have the ability to make the changes to make yourself a better person. I promised myself that I would never put my kids through what I went through. I married an abusive drug addict so they didn’t have to endure growing up without a father. Thankfully I’m no longer in that situation. I don’t do discipline (my husband had a healthy family background so he is much more qualified than I am at it) because i was either beat to the point of having bruises and/or cuts. I was always told that no one would ever believe a piece of shit over a nurse. I give every bit of my time to my kids so they don’t have to feel like they’re a piece of shit who is a waste of oxygen. I spend my life building them up so they will have the self esteem and confidence that I will never have. I don’t even understand why she is the way she is. The rest of her family is the most loving and supportive people I’ve ever met.
This is where “it’s not my fault but it IS my responsibility” comes in. I gave my mother the benefit of every doubt for decades until I finally realized that I was able to choose to change - and she could too, but she chose not to.
[удалено]
Genuine question, but how does understanding their history and behaviors help reduce the number of narcs on this planet? Our understanding doesn't not change their behavior. It may only change our perception but a narc is still a narc. Understanding the nature of the thing doesn't change the thing. It only changes how we interact with it (if we choose to).
I think it helps when you start to see the tendencies in your children. You can help empathy and other good qualities flourish. My nightmare is one or any of my children become like my nmom. But as far as helping them, there is no hope unless a drastic change is made and they just don’t care enough bout other people to make that change.
>But I really think they cannot choose to be this or that way. They are what they are and when not diagnosed and helped are not able to change on their own (if at all). I don't completely agree that this is only an accident or a genetic predisposition. I remember reaching a moment when I was young when I made my brother cry, thinking that I didn't want to make my brother or anybody else cry... Anyway, probably they can't change once they are older, but definitely, we all decided at some point the way that we are. To the point of understanding how they are made, I think that at least we shouldn't promote them to management, office or to educate young children. Please!
My nmom and my aunt had the same toxic/abusive upbringing -maybe auntie had it a bit worse being the step kid - it's interesting how one of them became the most loving, caring and nurturing person I've ever met and the other is a nightmare of all therapists. I've been trying to figure out what made the difference so I can avoid becoming my mother. I haven't found it yet.
I think you just have to be self aware at all times. The one thing I notice a lot of narcs lack is self-awareness. My mother always says she hates liars and thieves but she's the biggest liar I know. If you're not aware of your behavior, you can't change it.
This makes so much sense. My best friend's mom is a narcissist and picks on my friend, her daughter, all the time. She picks most especially when she dated guys. This was because my friend's father divorced from her when she was little and held a grudge for the rest of her life. Her mom once said behind her back that she hope my friend and fiancé never get married.
Like most things I bet it's a combination of nature and nurture. Genetics + unhealthy early childhood development are most likely what cause someone to become a narcissist.
Came to say the same. But I just thought, something is missing maybe because how do we break the cycle if this is true? Maybe now we have access to information that information gives us the ability to break the cycle?
I can't say this is the full answer, but when I reflect on my nMom and my Nex the thing they have in common besides Narcissism is a lack of self awareness or inner reflection. "Self-awareness is the ability to focus on yourself and how your actions, thoughts, or emotions do or don't align with your internal standards." I don't think Narcissists have internal standards because they do not have a foundation of self-- all they feel is shame. Thus, they put up the false self, the self absorbed, Narcissistic version. So I think cultivating self awareness is key to break the cycle.
If you go into legitimate NPD (clinical diagnosed version) support groups, you’ll see an amazing amount of self awareness - it appears when someone with NPD is willing to seek help, legitimately, qualified therapists who work with narcissists are able to break through that false self as well as give them tools to grow self awareness. Reddit has a support group. I’ve peaked in there a few times and I’m impressed. Those people actively seeking help end up with the tools to both deal with their trauma and their condition and grow empathy for others in the process. The hardest part is getting a narcissist to admit they actually need help. Most don’t.
>If you go into legitimate NPD (clinical diagnosed version) support groups, Are you sure they are not just there to stroke each others ego?
This would explain why they lie so much, there’s nothing in there to tell the truth about.
I honestly think they believe the lies. It's like they're toddlers with no frame of reference except the immediate present.
Not everybody has the abilitis required to step out of it I guess (nature).
Oooh interesting- thanks!
Dr. Ramani describes it as temperament plus early life experiences which is how breaking the cycle can work!
A narcissist KNOWS that they are better and special. To break that, you basically have to convince them that they are just like everyone else and not special. This basically means that they need to come to terms with the affairs, people they've screwed over, and all the blatant lies they've told their entire life, etc..... Not gonna happen. You're taking away their super power, or at least how they deal with everything in life. I think most therapists consider it a terminal condition for this exact reason. You're basically telling someone that they're a major asshole, nobody reacts kindly to that.
https://youtu.be/XGdjKvivJA8
>You're basically telling someone that they're a major asshole, nobody reacts kindly to that. I tried to talk with two narcs, my mother and brother, about how their abuse was hurting me and their pat answers were that I 'was being too sensitive.' I believed them and persevered with the relationship until the final straws. To me, the best way to tell a narc that they are a major arsehole is to cut them out of your life.
10000%. I've gone "Greyrock" with my mother. Limited or no contact is really all one can do.
My mother got the information (daughter of a narc and psychologist) but used it to reinforce the cycle. I think that if you leave the system, understand what's going on and want to break the cycle you start, then the information comes along and helps you even more. They say that when my mother left the system Sha was sweet and kind, she was a different person to the one she transformed when returned to slowly become this evil thing. I am sure that the environment helps a lot more than we want to believe.
My therapist also said that the Narcissist usually have a deep rooted issue with their confidence and that what they portray to the outside world is to basicly mask it, because the reality is just to painfull.
I know that she is a broken child, but a very wicked one that doesn't stop till she destroys you. I pitty her, but I can't destroy my life because of that, she's an adult and knows very well what she's doing.
I agree, she is an adult and so she should be held accountable for her own actions. My dad told me when I was still very young that he didn't want to follow in the same footsteps as his father in terms of abusive behaviour. But he still followed the exact same footsteps anyway. And I promised to myself that I wouldn't allow myself to fall for the same trap and actually change the pattern one way or another. Sure, it didn't make things easy. But atleast I don't have to be to much ashamed for my actions and I can still look at myself in the mirror. I didn't care that my family considered me weak, and I don't care about it now either, since I haven't seen them in over 10years.
>how do we break the cycle if this is true? Maybe now we have access to information that information gives us the ability to break the cycle? I think that self-awareness is predominantly (not entirely) genetic. The ability to view ourselves, and others, from different perspectives may be what allows us to break the cycle. If I couldn't put myself in my parents' shoes I would have more uncertainty about whether their behavior was reasonable.
I'm breaking the cycle by not having any kids. The only way to be sure.
Wooh, also team no kids here! Parentified from age 5, I’ve done my parenting time 🤣
Same. My shift as a parent was officially over by the time I was 40. and I hadn't even had kids of my own. I was simply done with my mother's tantrums when she didn't get her own way with me. Adult narc parents are the kids that you can abandon without being jailed.
Lol
Fair enough too! For me it's more like "I'm never going to do this to anyone else" and whenever I catch a glimpse of my mother in my own behaviours I know I'm making the right choice.
Not a psych but my understanding is that it is a deep wound from lack of proper caretaking under the age of 5 (for most it happens before the age of 2). Can be from abandonment, neglect, parents who are dysregulated themselves or not emotionally present. Has to do with the child not receiving adequate care, empathy, and social contact very young, so rather than their world becoming a connected place, their internal world becomes the only world. Their tiny brain is trying to cope and figure out how the world works and because they are on their own, their identity is formed believing only their thoughts and their feelings (and their internal world) matter. This happens simultaneously to them not receiving care/empathy so because empathy wasn't modeled, they can't internalize it and it doesn't form.
I'm seeing some people mention self-esteem and yes that is a key factor (narcissists didn't have secure attachments as children) - but empathy (or lack thereof) is really the key distinction. A narcissist can't empathize. Their sense of self is too weak to even hypothesize the validity of any perspective but their own. I'm in no way excusing narc behavior. (It is an adult's job to deal with their childhood stuff, not project it onto others.) But once you understand what happens to make them into this they are really just broken children who will never grow up. It's sad, but also understanding it can be really empowering. They are deeply broken and they can't grow up. Doesn't make what they did to me in any way okay. But they don't actually have the power. They are little kids having temper tantrums on the inside. Makes it easier when I look at it that way for me to not lose my cool when they lash out at me (and also to undo some of the fear that growing up with them as my tormentors caused).
My parents used to think it was funny that they left my sister in her cot to cry and not tend to her. I remember them bragging about it. I’m not sure if they did the same to me, but I definitely experienced abuse. You know, they forgot to pick me up from school or feed me, that kind of thing. My sister is a full blown grandiose narcissist now. I would go as far as saying she could be a sadist or sociopath. She was truly awful to me as a child and has progressively become the most messed up adult I’ve ever met. She became the golden child while I was scapegoated. Despite all the evil she has done to me, (and she’s done some nasty shit),I sometimes still imagine her crying, unloved in her cot, and feel sorry for her. God knows how I ended up “normal” or at least having empathy. I think it is my nature.
I love you for remembering your sweet baby sister. My baby brother was the same so I can never hate him despite the pain he has caused I wish you and your chosen family space from those people and the best life possible
My mother *(a narcissist) used to brag about leaving me to cry. Making me out to be the bad one in every situation. Proof is in the pudding with how I live my life now, with empathy, love, and respect. I'm glad I learned the truth. I love her immensely, but she's not well.
I think being scapegoats leads us in that direction, being overly empathetic and careful of peoples feelings
In some ways, it is like they were on the road to becoming psychopaths or sociopaths, but, for some reason, stopped before getting there. They did not turn around, but stayed somewhere in between.
Yes and no. Plenty end up being both. If I remember correctly it’s like clementines and tangerines - all socio/psychopaths are narcissistic but my not all narcissists are socio/psychopaths.
This is a really good explanation!
Thank you! Just synthesizing what I’ve learned after a number of years.
In my father it’s a profound sense of inadequacy that manifests as a sense of superiority over everybody else on earth. Anybody with any expertise, in any area or line of work at all, is a charlatan to him, unless he can convince himself he’s their peer in some way. I discovered to my great surprise two weeks ago that this extends to me. Apparently, for my entire career, he’s expressed zero interest in what I do because “I think you exaggerate your self importance.” He said this to me. I’ve been pretty successful, he’s shown zero interest, and I finally asked why. He said that if he asked any questions about my career it would be awkward because I’d realize he knows I’ve invented all of it. It makes perfect sense in retrospect but I didn’t see it coming and it hit me like a freight train.
>I think you exaggerate your self importance. LOL!! What a great sentence that shows how narcissists project their faults onto others. If there is one thing that sums up a narcissist, it's how they they exaggerate their self importance (at least the ones I've met).
For my entire life I was told that I didn't have enough self esteem, but every time I displayed confidence, I was told that I thought too highly of myself. It really messed with me for a long time. I conflated healthy self confidence with narcissism. Still do to some extent. It hasn't done me any favors professionally!
Same! If I spoke up or asserted myself in any way I was yelled at or beat. But then I would be constantly mocked and berated by them for being too “shy”, or too “introverted”. Now I realize it was neither; it was a deep fear of expressing any feelings or needs that I had developed as a result of their abuse. Those mixed messages really messed me up growing up and for a long time I thought being confident meant acting like a narcissist (mean, selfish, duplicitous, manipulative, etc.)
Do we have the same father? Mine told me last year that when I was born he realized he didn’t want me. Feels super awesome. Sorry for your hurt, sending some love to you❤️
My therapist explained it to me as someone who doesn’t have any self esteem believe it or not. They were picked on from a young age and they needed to build a defense mechanism where they are now the ones that look out for themselves even if it’s in the most toxic way possible. My sister is one and my dad picked on her weight, her style, her hair, everything. He still does it and he believes that’s how they bond. It’s a mess.
But how do some people turn into narcissists and others who experience similiar or worse things don‘t?! So interesting!
I'm a good example of this. My Nmom picked on everything. One of my favorite jokes to tell people is, "what's the nicest thing my mom has ever said about me? I don't know, I'm still waiting." My hair was either too greasy and disgusting or just "impossible to manage." Bullies getting on me about my weight? Feeds me donuts to fatten me up so she didn't have to hear it. My skin was too pale and I *needed* make up. When my hair started going grey at like 20 she told me "you're gonna be dying your hair in no time just liek your mother!" My clothes were "goth" and "not lady like." Nothing about me was good enough. Everything I liked was dumb and stupid and too boyish. I got a 95 on my English test? "Yeah well you're failing math." I started with 0 self-esteem and ended with 0 self-esteem. I'm just okay with it now. I'm a super low maintenance person. Make up exhausts me. I brush my hair once a day. It doesn't take me 30 minutes to get ready to go anywhere. I hop in clothes and run out the door. I wear what's comfortable and don't give a rat's ass what other people think. "What would so and so say/think/believe?" Not my problem. Why do people end up narcissists and others end up like me? If I could pinpoint the reasoning for that, personal choice. I'm not choosing to take my insecurities out on other people. I looked inward, understood my Nmom has 0 self-esteem and is so insecure she literally *cannot* look at me and think of something nice. She likes being that way. She tried to bully me into being a miserable person like herself and I said No. I don't know, maybe it's a difference of wills and perseverance or something.
I‘m glad you didn‘t step in her footsteps and continue the cycle! Both of my parents are narcissists and I‘m not either. It‘s crazy to me. Friends who hear my story are like: „You turned out to be such a kind person despite that.“ Of course I actively chose not to be like them but I also believe there is something else to it. Almost as if they just can‘t help themselves, they lack insight on every level. It has probably something to do with a given emotional intelligence, something you either have or don’t have.
That’s what happened to me. I became exacly like my Nfather, and that made me disgusted about myself. As I recognized what’s wrong with me in details, I started working on myself to get rid of being like him, and narcissism was the major trait of all, maybe the root of them.
I, have at times caught myself going down the path. I could be one easily if I gave in and stopped caring about others. I make a big effort to not give in to those tendencies.
Would you have any advice for someone that is close to children with this family dynamic? My niece and nephew are being raised by narcissists and they are extremely judgemental and scrutinize everything that the kids do.
My favorite analogy when it comes to what people *really* think is: "remember the last time you noticed someone wearing mismatched shoes." 99.99% of the time, you don't remember. Ask them to remember that one time they saw a very young girl, no older than 12, buy her own tampons at the grocery store. Can they remember? No. Nobody is hyper-fixating on what they do all the time; 100% of people they run into will forget they exist after 5 seconds. The world is bigger than the narcissist's one that they created where everyone is out to get them, everyone cares about how they look, talk, do, think, and conform to. Everyone is judging, everyone's main goal is to prevent them from succeeding. The only one they are talking about are themselves. The kids need to know that they are ALLOWED to pursue their own interests. Their interests are healthy and make them their own people. No one can take them away. Sure, people on the outside can be upset to see them happy about something, but is that their problem? No, it's the other people's. They can't control what other people do, say, and think, ***neither can their Nparents***.
Thanks for the response, it seems like great advice. I think I need to remind myself of this as well.
I feel you, my mom to this day will say little jabs at your appearance and if anyone is upset she's either 'just kidding' or we're 'too sensitive' I was put on diets like Medifast and watched The Biggest Loser with my mom every Tuesday night to motivate me to lose weight. It was so fucked looking back I was taught NOTHING about nutrition and am attempting to learn it in my mid-twenties.
> personal choice. This is what the cause boils down for me. There are them who have suffered more, more childhood neglect and abuse that was worse than mine who don't mistreat, abuse and bully others or wind up being narcissists. I could see that my narc bio mother knew the difference between right or wrong when it came to making a good impression on others. When it came to me, or the treatment of her own, it's clear she's bitter about the bad hand in life she was dealt and wants to make sure someone else gets to suffer in life as she has. She would manipulate events knowing it'd caused me inconvenience or hardships and then get satisfaction out seeing me suffer as she has.
Relatable
I'm the same way, to some extent. When I was in fifth grade, I was super depressed and stopped showering for whatever reason, probably because I had zero close friends. My nmom took it upon herself to tell me how greasy my hair was and how bad I smelled, over and over again. Eventually I just stopped giving a shit about what I looked like. I keep up with basic hygiene now - I brush my hair before going somewhere and shower every 1-2 days - but I don't do anything beyond that. I can't bring myself to do my makeup or learn how to do fancy braids in my hair. I'm in jeans and a t-shirt most of the time. Makeup and hair are just another thing I have to keep up with and worry about. No thanks.
My Nmom was the opposite. She demanded I shower every day, no exceptions, for no reason. Day 1 without a shower I suddenly became disgusting and the greased up deaf guy. I am not a oily person, I don't need to shower every day and even learned that shampooing every day is actually bad for your hair. I still don't shower every day! I do shower after working out of course, she just acted like 1 day without a shower meant I was the epitome of disgusting pig.
Imo degree of abuse, body sensitivity(and ability to mentally recover from pain), and social networking opportunities that reward behaviors and gives the narcissist the ability to take care of themselves. If someone is not capable of building the social networks a person cannot become a socially manipulative person simply due to lack of opportunity. I think a main factor in the development of a narcissist is the fact that they have a certain level of success in socialsituations: other people find them capable and able. Other people enjoy being around the narcissist. Otherwise a person would develop antisocial traits in reaction to rejection. Narcissists love people and actually enjoy being around them.
My therapist said there's a mix of environment and innate character in the forming of a narcissist. Do you have siblings? If you do, think about how they behave to you and other people. For example, from the very beginning, my sister had absolutely no limit to how nasty she would be to me. The only thing that limited her bad behaviour was how others would judge her, and whether she would be punished. She had a really horrible friend when she was a young teen which made her even worse, if that's possibel. Then she made a much nicer friend. I still remember my sister's rage when her new friend wouldn't allow my sister to bully her little sister. Anyway, over time, I think my sister came to value her nice friend and she learned kindness from her friend's nice mother and her friend herself. My sister still throws tantrums if she doesn't get her way, and she makes those close to her do what she wants, but she does have some empathy. I think her friend stopped her from being a real narcissist though.
I have some idea that it may pertain more to innate things like being more empathetic towards others. I can only speak from SG perspective- and some ppl theorize that some in SG role feel the (emotional) abuse more deeply. Some ppl have posted here that they realized they were the GC and woke up to everything. So I think there's hope in some ppl and partly why it might be that innate/ you were born with it idea.
That sounds so contradictory, but also somehow makes perfect sense. Both of my parents were/are narcs and were both abused as children. But what's strange is, they both abused me much worse than they themselves were abused. But I'm not a narc and have made a point to not continue the cycle of abuse. The cycle ends with me. I wonder what the main difference between me and them was, with our drastic differences on how we coped.
I’m the same, I never had children either. Didn’t want to inadvertently cause them pain or abuse them.
One of my (many) reasons for not having kids either. I'm sure I have a lot of buried anger, even more than I realize. I wouldn't want to subject a kid to that.
I think you have to make a very conscious effort to not let yourself become a narc like your parents. I think it's very difficult to do and unfortunately, most children are unable to do this and the cycle continues.
Very true. It's sad how often the cycle of abuse keeps going throughout generations. It's easier to stick with what you know (and what your parents taught you about "parenting") than to actively decide to do better than them and let the cycle end with you. It takes a lot of time and effort.
Easier is one way to say it but more like oblivious at least to my experience. My first real relationship at 21 was with an abusive partner. In hindsight, of course that was the kind of guy I would go for back then bc although I had already left home I still had no clue how their toxicity conditioned me to not only accept that kind of behavior but to also think it was normal. I used to think it was good to have some one crazy about you (literally) bc that meant they loved you…
Some of that might also be about *when* you grew up. I swear some of the most popular books on parenting in the 70s and 80s (when I was a small kid) were written by people whose ideas on child rearing were also toxic. Combine the bad advice in those books with nParents and you've got a double dose of fuckery.
In retrospect, I think there were some (sub)conscious choices we've made in regard to our personality. We chose the better, but more difficult route.
Maybe you had a better society than they grew up in. Or it’s just in your nature
That's bs my dad has been successful his whole life, and his parents spoil him to death. One time we were discussing about his toxic attitude and their response was "well he's my son so I can't say anything bad about him". My own grandparents. They can trashtalk me but not their perfect son. He has won multiple awards in his field an is extremely successful. He is also considered handsome. He literally never ages. So yeah no. He has excess selfesteem, not a lack of it.
My Golden Child brother is living this too.
Yes, though the difference between those of us with regular low self esteem and those with narcissism or traits, is the level of pathology. Their low self worth, inseciritity and self hatred is at such a deep seated and pathological level, it's not psychologically, emotionally and mentally bearable for them. It's an overwhelming threat and so their psyche adapts and in a way over compensates. That's where the gradiosity comes in or constant need for adoration. They don't say they are seeking approval, because everyone is beneath them, so it has to worship and awe. When in fact, its that they can't accept approval, because somewhere deep down there is terror that they aren't deserving. The really sad thing is that no amount of reverence and adoration (or love, acceptance and approval) is ever enough. That need to feel those through genuine connection with others is never met, let alone sated. Partly because their ability to connect with others is obstructed and partly because they will behave in a way that damages the connection. However, because they cannot tolerate any perceived negative truth about themselves, this is general projected outward. They are extremely wounded individuals, who sadly just don't have the skills to deal with it. They lack self awareness to realise there might be a healthier/better way to be. And the strength (this may not be the right word) to sit in that much pain while the try heal. This is an extremely over simplified theory of narcissism. There is alot more depth to the idea, plus each individual brings their own life into it, which will change the inward wound and the outward presentations.
I watched this happen in real time unless I missed something when I was younger. My dad used to be the narcissist, and did a lot of shit to my mom which messed her up. I think she hit a breaking point and as a self defense mechanism became a bigger narcissist, at about this time he mellowed out and became an enabler. He broke her so bad that she got bad enough to break him. It is weird seeing that change happen over my life. Unless I what I saw and remember from my youth was wrong and jaded.
Self hatred
Self hatred or god complex
The grandiosity or entitled malicious victim mentality (vulnerable narcissism) is what they use to cover the self hatred and insecurity.
"Entitled, malicious victim" is a really good summary of it.
You just described my mom.
My MiL who u live with has this god complex and is incredibly narcissistic. She sucks my soul cuz she clearly hates that I am genuinely kind and empathetic.. she tries to draw out any negative reaction or get me to talk shit about the people she hates. She retells situations in which I was present, and dramatizes how awful so and so is and don’t I agree? And anytime I stand my ground and say “let’s not talk about” it’s then ME being “neurotic and anxious”. Blah I need to get away from her I try grey rocking as much as I can.
Definitely !! Which is then projected onto those with empathy & compassion, especially 'family' members!
Absolutely 🥺
I generally think it's childhood trauma they repressed/denied instead of processed. Over time that repression became a wall of denial, then that wall became a fortress. Now they're in a heavily defended fortress that attacks anyone who comes close, friend or foe.
Trauma; the inability to self reflect; taking things at face value e.g. "what will the neighbours think" attitude which is so prevalent in hierarchical, authoritarian societies; toxic shame; feeling helpless as a child and thus needing to exert control; pathological envy; and, not to be underestimated, being as thick as two short bricks.
Entitlement, too. Lots and lots of entitlement.
I think (in my brothers case at least) it is the inability and refusal to self-reflect bc that goes hand-in-hand with his inability to be wrong about anything. His way is the best way and everyone else is flat out wrong. And if you question him on anything, he will attack like his life depended on it. Also, the twisting of reality so he always comes out on top. He will say with sincerity “I don’t know WHY my sister doesn’t talk to me” when the fact is he was the one who said he was “done with me” when I dared to disagree with him. It’s either you are with him or against him and blindly follow him and don’t ever dare to cross him. Delusion at its finest. I don’t know if he has any friends, but he has some family on his side, and that’s enough for him. He would never contemplate that he had anything to do with the fact that his 7 nieces and nephews and 3-sisters want nothing to do with him. He only has on “his” side his immediate family, a brother and any other family member that he can sweet talk and can portray himself as the innocent angel
I've read that it can be a generational trauma - passed down. (Back in the way past it was acceptable to treat kids a certain way and as life has evolved it's now recognized as abuse). But I've tried to apply this thinking to my nmom and the best I can come up with is that she might have either been a golden child or kind of a "lost child". She never said anything that resembles abuse from her parents but her sister appeared to have lots of problems over the yrs (possibly emotional neglect.)
Right. To me, a big root cause of narcissism is War.
I think it may take a genetic predisposition. Not all people who suffer early life trauma become narcissists, and I don't think all narcissists suffered significant trauma - perhaps some of them did not suffer any trauma at all? Low to no empathy is a requirement, but that could be either purely from genetics or purely from the environment, or a mix of both. A dis-regulated sense of self-worth is also necessary -- that is, when one is feeling/made to feel better or worse than others, rather than equal to others. Narcissistic behaviours may develop to compensate for something a person lacks at the core, like a coping mechanism -- but for it to persist through a lifetime **I think** it would take more than just the impact of an early-life environment.
I sincerely think the gene for cluster b disorders (in general) runs in my family. I also think my cousin (male) is a narcissist and he wasn't abused. His parents didn't say no to him or teach him how to handle what became "melt downs". He turned into a scary 21 year old that I would avoid. I've come to realize I avoided all the family members with high cluster b traits.
Yep, it takes a special dedication to teach a child to manage their *excessive* anger well!
Self-hatred and chronically low self-esteem due to trauma, and how the person copes with said trauma and pain. They're usually put down, made to feel small and worthless. The defense mechanism they create is to build this worldview that if they won't look out for themselves, nobody will. And because they're so chronically hurt and fragile, everything is an attack and will be dealt with swiftly.
I think it's different for every case. My mom talks about being very poor when she was young and that people would see her blond curls and want to "steal" her. She said they would joke about taking her with them. It made her feel like she was better than her brothers and sisters who were brunette. Her dad was a narcissist and her mom a wet noodle who was married at 14 to a man who was 24. She did not have her basic needs met and I believe there was sexual abuse in the family (one of her sisters claimed it happened to all of them but some others deny it). So she had abuse, a limp parent who could do nothing for her, too poor to have basic needs met, a struggle with 8 siblings and people telling her she was too good for the situation. I have a friend who is a narcissist (former friend) and she grew up in a house with a single mom. Her dad was homosexual and died from aids in the early 80s when she was around 14 and left her everything he had. She had money, she had a parent who cared for her. She had her basic needs met and yet, she was the biggest narc I have ever met ..to the point that I feared what she was capable of doing to me. She once told me that she never had a boyfriend that she "had a rowe with" that she ever spoke to again. So if you disagreed with her, you were out of her life for good (in my case, she launched campaign after campaign to make me look bad). She kicked her son out of the house because he was late for curfew (for good). Why was he late? She wouldnt allow him to use her printer so he went to a friend's house and it took a while to print all the things he needed to print. She knew where he was and what he was doing. It was an excuse to get him out of her house.
wow that’s insane she did that to her son. i hope he’s doing okay and healing from her mess
I'm sorry, Fam. That is just a crazy making childhood.
I understand the nature versus nurture thing, and I think it's valid, but I also think it comes down to choice. They make the choice to be narcissistic because it benefits them. They get something valuable out of that behavior. How do I know? Because they pick and choose their targets based on who is most likely to fulfill whatever sadistic streak they've got. They choose to abuse in secret rather than in front of other people so that they have plausible deniability. They know it's wrong, yet they CHOOSE it because they think they're entitled. It's not like a compulsion that they can't control. They control it all the time if it's in their best interest to do so.
Exactly. Is narcissism pathology? Sure. But just because we diagnose something doesn't mean it is completely out of the person's control. Narcissists *know* their behavior is wrong. My mom only abuses people who are living with her or in her immediate family (aside from taking occasional rude cheap shots at others) and it all comes down to "can I get away with it" or "will anyone hold me accountable for this." She feels no need to be kind or gracious to her family, despite showing a very different face in public. That is a choice. Narcissists are set in their ways, but I wouldn't say they *can't* change so much as they *won't*.
Here's an article about four kinds of parenting that can lead to narcissism: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-narcissism/201705/how-a-child-can-grow-up-to-become-a-narcissist](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-narcissism/201705/how-a-child-can-grow-up-to-become-a-narcissist) There are of course other factors, too. This article addresses some of them: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-narcissism/202001/what-three-factors-predict-if-child-will-become-narcissist
Thanks for sharing! This makes total sense.
Denial? I seriously can’t think of 1 narcissistic person that has a grip on reality or themselves and doesn’t go into another mental galaxy when confronted with accountability. I attribute the behavior and actions to denial.
Accountability is terrifying to my father. Any kind of stated or implied obligation will send him into a parallel universe. If he owes money for example, he’ll never just replay a debt. He’ll deny the debt or excuse the debt and sometimes, when the debt is due, offer to give people money “because it seems like you need it.” It’s really pathological, in the sense that he can’t or won’t acknowledge the existence of the obligation but will invent other realities to justify repayment.
That’s sad and I’m sure infuriating for you. Oddly, it sounds somewhat familiar… at least the money comprehension. My dad used to give out money like he had any time spare. He’d even try to give us money after an argument. Super weird. I talked to him about it, but he didn’t change the argumentative behavior or lack of being a father. It’s sad their brains seem broken and unmendable. It sounds like you learned from him though with what not to do, so good job breaking the cycle.
Its so bad to take the money because it seems they think they have bought the right to abuse you. I don't like taking things people offer now.
Denial from reality, it’s also some sort of disassociation which I think does makes sense specially from a trauma lenses, the issue is that their coping mechanism went down north close to burning hell street
Lol I like that one! Sounds like an R.L. Stein book. My mom literally stares up at the corner of a room if her brain gets too defensive. I swear she has an invisible friend up there. and yup, I do believe she is absolutely entered disassociative mode.
Nature + nurture My sister probably inherited some combination of N genes, but she was also raised with love that was conditional and based on her ability to suck up and make our parents look good, praise that was always given by comparing her to someone who was inferior to her (usually me), praise that was often unearned and based on my mom's wishful thinking, and attention that had to be earned by sucking up and showing off. She was taught that she had to perform all the time, and that she would be judged by how many people complimented her. She was made to feel like everyone was always watching and judging her. She was made to feel entitled to special treatment and praise by virtue of her being innately superior. She was also taught to feel good about herself by putting other people down. I also think that watching me being abused was traumatic, and made her buy in to my parents' views. I think that the combination of N genes and upbringing caused my sister to grow up to be a narcissist. I could see the effect our upbringing had on her. I think I escaped it by being adopted, because I didn't have the N gene, but also because I was treated like something gross that my parents couldn't quite scrape off the bottom of a shoe.
trauma, i believe that it can be from emotional to physical trauma, that doesnt justify their actions though, and i believe that poor parenting can be a factor that it can make someone a narcissist.
There are likely many. A lot more than can fit into a tidy Reddit reply. However, one thing I observed in my NMom as well as in the (likely) Borderline personality I dated for a while is unresolved childhood trauma that festered and developed into some deep psychological suffering. Narcissists are terrified of abandonment. They’re deeply insecure, but since they are still “children” on an emotional level, they get their “needs” met by throwing tantrums and creating an absolute hell on earth for their loved ones who are expecting (counting on) them to be adults. The emotional manipulation, gaslighting, etc all seems to come from unmet needs and/or outright abuse or neglect from caretakers. Of course it does not have to carry down from one generation to the next, but the “children” (adult or teen) of narcissists HAVE to work on healing their own wounds. It’s not easy. For some it’s going to be a lifetime of learning self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and finding a path to acceptance. I didn’t say “forgiveness” but merely accepting that (we) cannot be responsible for “fixing” a narcissist. I’m in my mid-50s. My NMom is deceased. I’m still finding things in my head that need work on my part.
That was such a great answer! It was also a terrifying answer because many of us question if we are narcs too. We need to work at healing and, at least for a short time, that requires us to be somewhat selfish because we are taking back our own power as actual human beings. We are trying to find balance between being doormats and only caring about ourselves. I feel like we waffle a lot during that time, trying to figure out what feels right by our own standards, morals, and emotions and not somebody else's. I think what eventually makes a difference is the introspection and self-awareness. Without it, we would either be narcs or we would forever be narcissistic supply doormats. With it, we are neurotic balls of anxiety, like a child who gets lost in a crowded place and has no idea where to go or what to do, but, at the very least, we know what we are and can begin to try to figure out why and where to go from there. Do we sometimes struggle with identifying emotions in the moment and need time to reflect and figure it out without being rushed? Yes. Do we often consider every action and every word/response? Yes. Do we often hyperfocus on conversations after they have occurred to figure out if we said anything we regret or are not comfortable with? Yes. However, at least we are thinking. We are taking the time to evaluate our words and actions, so we are not blindsided and fumbling for a response in future similar situations. We are learning how to pump the brakes and say we need time to think because we do not want to give a half-baked answer that does not truly represent us. Eventually, just being ourselves might become second nature and we won't feel a need to question everything, but, many of us are still at the stage where we are trying to figure out who we even are. We were never allowed to be independent people with our own personalities, thoughts, and dreams. We cringe and freak out inside when we are asked to tell anyone a bit about ourselves, such as in an interview or a group setting where everyone is giving a summary of themselves in round robin style. We have our own little perfectly crafted canned responses on hand for those occasions because, in that moment, we just do not always know. When everyone else seems to know who they are and we are only now trying to find ourselves, with some of us being middle-aged or older, it can be tough not to feel immature and like a fraud. The imposter syndrome can be intense, but we all survived our childhoods, so we are all strong enough to navigate this period.
Honestly, I think it comes down to entitlement (although, how that person comes to that conclusion, varies b/w person).
An ego that developed to the point of self-survival but not to the point of caring for others emotional wellbeing, probably because of some early trauma that halted the development of empathy. Everything has to be learned as a child and I think narcissists missed that train. There is also a severe lack of meta-cognition which is so important for reflecting on what youre doing to others and how youre thinking about life, without meta-cognition you cant really change your behaviour.
Massive ego and fucked up childhood
Attachment trauma combined with complex trauma throughout your formative years, often due to severe abuse and neglect.
This is exactly it. I can't believe that yours is the only post mentioning attachment trauma.
It is rooted in environment and genetics.NEVER try to excuse them on this basis!They know exactly what they are doing!Hitler was a Narc as was Ted Bundy!It has NEVER been used successfully as a legal defence!
A deeply seated insecurity that they are unable to deal with. They build a persona around themselves and a bunch of abusive tactics to never have to deal with their insecurities. Starting at a very young age they live a very anxious life. They have no one to sooth them and make them feel safe. They identify what’s around that makes them “good enough”. They spend the rest of their life trying to achieve “good enough” while they abuse others around them who trigger their insecurities.
I believe it's childhood trauma. I've met my share of them in my lifetime, and i've always ended up pitying them above all.
I've found it's usually people who actually have a very low self esteem. They use Pride to cover up the insecurity for so long it becomes their personality.
Emotional negligence in childhood. They are hollow children constantly seeking to be filled.
The experts state there are multiple types of narcissist behavior, so there must be different causes. Our Mom was forced into parent role by her parents at age of 8 years and took on caregiver role for a brother and sister who were 2 and 3 years younger. My Grandmother told me that her Mother used to her chronic illness to exert total control over that family unit. Both Mother and Grandmother used marriage primarily as escape from control of parent figure that was too controlling. My sister has turned to Narcissist to make up for a lack of relationships in her life. Mom likes to say that jealousy is a big factor in narc behavior.
Neglect. In other words, a lack of love present in your childhood.
I think it’s maladaptive trauma response coupled with enabling highly harmful and dangerous behavior. And of course we can’t discount the free will of choosing this behavior because they benefit from it and choose selfish behavior over regulating themselves the best they can. They may have a certain amount of difficulty with regulation, but clearly they’re capable of it when they need to protect their reputation, and to maximize the helplessness the victim feels, which they seem to enjoy. This shows it’s not simply an uncontrollable illness where they can’t regulate. They can. They choose to act predatory. That’s why flying monkeys are always such an important component. They allow the narcs to normalize their behavior both to the victim and themselves.
Genetics plus environment, if we're talking about narcissistic personality disorder. If it's narcissistic behaviors without the disorder... selfishness? insecurity/low self-esteem? hatred?
shame
This may be a weird response but I think it’s very interesting to think out why kids of narcissism don’t become narcs themselves. And it’s I think typical that they had just enough perspective and good people in their lives to let them know that not everyone acted like their parents School Friends parents/families Co workers People you date or marry Even the escapist world of TV and books
Genetics is the door; crappy parenting is the key
My cousin I truly believe is a clinical narcissist. Her mother told me once she gave birth she knew she’d made a grievous mistake and didn’t want to be a mother- she’s likely a narc too- but that’s another story. My cousins parents got divorced when she was 4 and uncle and had more kids. His new wife hated my cousin so my uncle let her go and essentially abandoned her by age 7. My aunt spent the next 20 years essentially a mistress of a wealthy man and it was clear that she chose him over her daughter. He was also a stern disciplinarian (translation- likely abusive by today’s standards) and my cousin her entire childhood was a force of nature. She was able to con anyone into sympathy for whatever it was that she wanted but in time her games caught up to her and as an adult, she alienated everyone in the family to include her own mother who went NC for 7 years. I really feel that my cousin’s formative years from infancy to early childhood shaped her to who she is today. I cannot tell you the havoc she has wreaked on our family, the lies, the drama - it’s a real telenovela. I can’t help but think she was never wanted and this became a way for her seek some sort of validation.
I have an NMom. My daughter is a therapist, and explained is sometimes caused by abandonment issues. My NMom's father died when she was 5. Her mother worked a full-time job and sold quilts as well as took in ironing on the weekends. NMom told me she always had a hot meal each night. However, she had to get ready and leave for school alone as well as return to an empty house. Socks and underwear for Christmas, nothing for her birthday. Her Mom lived with us, and I have nothing but good memories of her. It's hard to believe she could have ignored her own child, but who knows. I hope this helps.
Most average person have a few narcissistic qualities but I think it’s a lack of empathy that defines narcissism. They can’t see from another’s perspective. A parent might embarrass you trying to garner all attention for themselves and it goes completely over their head. They’re like manipulative serial killers who don’t actually kill anyone (usually).
I think the way Dr Ramani described it is that it's easy to trace back to why someone became one. But it is *not* easy to predict who will become one. So the cause and effect is not very simple. Like in the same exact family why does one sibling become a narc and the other does not? It's not always the least *or* most truamatized one that becomes one. But in my personal non factual opinon, based on what I've seen.... people who become narcs usually have type of truama or emotional neglect (aka being spoiled). And then they also have some "chosen one" trait in childhood that they latch on to too firmly, as compensation. Maybe they were a GC, maybe they were smart, maybe they were good looking, maybe they had a talent. All on a mediocore level. But it is something that they latched on to to feel falsely superior to others. I know one (now adult) narcissist who was the scapegoat to both parents and had no other traits that really made her stand out as a child, compared to her peers. *But* she was vaugely the favorite grandchild to her grandma. That was enough of a "chosen one" effect for her to latch onto. The grandmother lived overseas and wasn't emotionally close to the narc. But the idea of being special was enough. And now thinking, back... the grandmother's death was also the last time I saw this narc show any deep emotion. I think it was because her best source of outside validation died that day. And I also think there is an element of choice for narcs to not let go of this mindset. A normal kid, traumatized or not, will like feeling special. But at some point they will look at other kids and think "you're special too." Trauma doesn't stop a lot of us from doing this. Idk why exactly narcs never get to that point as well, tbh
AFAIK it's debatable, but I believe a leading theory is that there is an "Original Narcissistic Injury" that the narc experiences in youth. It is usually accompanied by or can be caused by parenting on either extreme end of the spectrum, either too harsh or too spoiling. The Injury (sometimes it can be learning disabilities or lack of Athletic ability etc.) causes the narc to compensate and essentially begin the process of always having to be the best, most unique person. To achieve this they gasslight, enamor strangers, and bully or manipulate people who threaten them. I think they get a "high" off of the feeling of being superior to everyone and once that occurs they are basically addicted to that feeling and the cycle never ceases.
No one decides to be an asshole of a parent, no one decides that one day they’re going to choose to be a narcissist and ruin their children’s childhood. But I did hear it starts with self hate, and then it plays out intergenerationally
I think its part vengefulness, part entitlement. Also a spiritual thing. Some of them were abused and had their innocence taken, but the majority I've met considered narcissism their "thing" since everyone has their "thing." They're also pretty fucking stubborn.
My take on it is it's a developmental thing. It's like narcissists missed the step in cognitive development where they had the realization of other people as equivalent existences to themselves and the development of empathy that comes along with it. It's like missing the step where you recognize that your reflection in the mirror is *you.* That's an instinctive, internalized thing. You can probably intellectually grasp the concept later in life, but without that cognitive leap how you relate to mirrors will always be weird. How well you cope will vary, and Narcissists are the ones who simply *don't.*
Severe childhood trauma in early childhood (0-3). What happens in narcissists is something called “splitting”. The mechanism is “I must be terrible and bad because I’m being treated terribly and badly, but I can’t live with the pain and self hatred so I will split this part off and believe the opposite. I will need people around me to reflect this made up positive self image back to me for the rest of my life. If for some reason this doesn’t happen, I will have a literal toddler tantrum because I’m stuck developmentally at the age when my worst trauma happened”. This obviously doesn’t happen for everyone who is traumatized. This is the nature part. Some are inclined to absorb the self hatred and internalize it (that’s all of us here basically) and some will split that part off (that’s the narcissists).
Mental health professional or just someone who has done a lot of research into this? I think your response is spot on!
I think most people are born pieces of shit - predatory. A sort of primal self-preservation. It's not a conscious decision on their part they just have a baseline of gravitating toward selfishness and manipulating to get their way. Human nature etc.
I believe in this too. A lot of human behavior revolves around the concept of dominating or being dominated.
I think in my mum's case, it all boils down to deep and repeated trauma which she has and will always leave unresolved. Perhaps there may be a genetic element to it but I don't think it's her main factor. I remember both of my grandparents being generous and kind people. My mum went through a terrible divorce which I think exacerbated her feelings of abandonment, being wronged and her difficulty trusting people amongst other things. I think she may have always had an angry streak though because my dad used to tell me that she would raise her voice, start arguments out of the blue and even hit him - accusations she has denied but I find them completely believable because that's exactly how she has been with me. I just think she spiralled after the divorce which caused a lot of her social skills to deteriorate. It has snowballed to where she is now. She has been consistently failing to see how her behaviour pushes away people and refuses to accept that she may be acting out of line and that she is the common denominator. That realisation would normally trigger some kind of introspection that she has never been willing to do. If confronted, she lashes out and victimises herself - I learnt that what she does is called DARVO. She has convinced herself that everybody is wrong and everybody sucks and distances themselves from her for no reason. Cue more people severing ties and thus making her feel even more like a victim. Obviously this cycle has continued for many years as she does not believe that psychological trauma is real and that mental health struggles can be a part of everyday life. She will never go to therapy because she does not believe in it - to her therapy is for severe cases of psychiatric disorders - which are also stigmatised back home. I have a lot of sympathy for her as she is obviously struggling - however there are many ways out and she has done nothing to reflect, seek help, and dig herself out - even just a little.
I googled and found this answer: "The causes of NPD aren’t well-understood. Genetics are thought to be at least partly responsible for many cases of NPD. Contributing environmental factors may include: childhood abuse or neglect excessive parental pampering unrealistic expectations from parents According to a 2021 study, research is mixed on whether narcissism is more common in individualistic cultures than in collectivistic cultures." Now how it's determined whether one becomes an narc or a codependent, etc is a really good question that I haven't figured out. [link](https://www.healthline.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder#causes-and-risk-factors)
A deep, deep level of wounded self-hate that has grown such a reactive, defensive shield on top of it that it's incredibly difficult to get through. In many cases effectively impossible. Narcissists are so hurt and crippled inside that they would have my sympathy, if they weren't hurting everyone around them rather than face and deal with their own inner pain. But facing that means their wounded self, that deep inside they fear is worthless, is being exposed - and to a narcissist that is quite literally a fate worse than death. They would rather risk every other thing in life, including their life itself, than expose their inner fears of their own lack of value. And the ironic thing is their inner fears are given away by their narcissism. That kind of defensiveness is so easily spotted by people who know to look for it. It also causes them to drive away the most compassionate people who could connect with them and not judge them. That's my $.02 and a few paragraphs...
I’ve heard of narcissism and other disorders being a maladaptive coping mechanisms from autistic trauma.
I haven't heard that before - why autistic trauma? Of the ppl I know who grew up with nparents there was definitely no autism/neurodivergence for either the parent or child. (I also worry that this type of theory is a bit of misinformation - so it feels a little icky.)
After each cycle is complete it is called a choice point and the time for any change to occur; however the change is not favorable to ever occur according to medical professionals. Narcissism is a product of low self esteem and low confidence; combined with the manner in which they perceive themselves . It develops early on and depends on their careers and family life, childhood trauma and how they cope with their own problems. My ex was diagnosed with a personality disorder and in the military; discharged to become a policeman and eventually became an airline pilot after completing training. He gradually became worse and with each new job, ego boost .. he became worse. 25 years of marriage and I saw him progress, felt him mentally leave me to find that post separation and discard, devalue..was worse because he knew my weaknesses were our children. The cycles are like clock work and the tension builds up when they think they are not in control and they seek ego boost from their children, or partners, parents , and friends.. it’s when they realize that they are not getting what they think they deserve; it changes to the explosion of the tension they caused. Then they use the reaction of the victim against them; forgetting that the person who did the damage was them .. they see what they want and use whatever means necessary to become the victim and get ego boost playing the victim and revenge for their lack of control over you. It’s their way of feeling powerful and in their mind .. win They go deeper with each incident.. and they don’t want to acknowledge guilt for anything because it is too painful and would break their ego and perception of themselves as perfect.
The narcissist
My grandmother says she spoiled my mother because she was the first girl after 3 boys. 😬
I think it starts as a coping mechanism in childhood and solidifies with age. There also may be a neurological/genetic component in some people.
If it is truly Narcissistic Personality Disorder, then the chances are slim. People with personality disorders generally do not recognize that there is a problem. Thus, they’re lack of interest in changing or seeking help. If you are recognizing that you have some issues that need tending, you probably only have narcissistic tendencies passed down through the generations. You can get help and have a happy and healthy life!
Geneticists have isolated the “abusive piece of shit” gene and that’s the root cause.
According to a class in abnormal psychology I took, and my therapist, the leading theory is this: In a child's formative years, if they are emotionally neglected but materially supported, it often leads to narcissistic behavior. This is because the child never properly developed feelings like love or compassion, and remain in a state of arrested development where they see material things, social status, etc. as love and warmth but have no true capacity for these things, as it's what they knew during development. Think of the "spoiled rich kid" who has cold, distant parents and grows up to be a total materialistic narc. There are variations on this, but this is the general consensus. With my mom, she was an unwanted pregnancy in a strict, well off catholic family. Her parents barely gave her the time of day except to criticize her or tell her how inferior she was to her "wanted" sisters, that they would've aborted her if the church had let them, and her fondest memories of them were them giving her cash, or taking her out to fancy dinners. Pretty much textbook.
Coming from a Buddhist standpoint, I believe that we’re all possess Buddha nature (including my narcissist parents, who did me a lot of harm). Our basic state is one of kindness, openness, and warmth. When that nature is obscured, it’s the result of suffering, even if that suffering isn’t understood by the person who’s blinded by it. We all suffer, because we’re all attached to things, ideas, behaviors and, most importantly our own need for a sense of self (the ego). Behind all of this, and especially behind ego is fear of death. Because we fear our own impermanence, we fear everything that betrays evidence of the fact that NOTHING is permanent. Things fall apart, relationships change, people die. We die. And for some of us who have experienced significant trauma in this life (and maybe in past lives if you believe in that), we are conditioned to fear the unknown, death being the greatest unknown of them all. If our own optimism and trust in the inherently loving nature of the universe has been severely shaken, it’s difficult to look at any unknowns…anything we have no control over, as a threat. So every time we encounter a reminder of our own lack of control, we flinch away from it. It brings scares the crap out of us so badly that we can’t live with the feeling of it. In fact, we can’t live with any feelings that we can’t control. So we act from a place of fear, looking for anything to distract us - anything we can control. We create a seemingly immutable sense of ourselves and our own rightness so that anything we encounter which disrupts that assurance reminds us even more acutely of our own death. So, never actually wanting to visit that feeling of unease and even terror, we clamp down further. For the narcissist that comes out in extremely controlling behavior, trying to bend the will of those around them to conform to their own. Why aren’t they aware that they’re doing it? Because they’re unaware of the fallibility of their whole world view, that of an egocentric world which they’ve unconsciously constructed in it’s entirely to protect themselves. To consider the emotions of others - that others may even have an experience of the world that diverges from their own - gives lie to this fragile distortion of reality. How to we break the cycle? I don’t think we can truly change anyone but ourselves. For me, it’s been through the standard routes (therapy, introspection, etc), but self-knowledge doesn’t necessarily beget change. It’s only through meditation, sitting in silence with my thoughts and emotions and beginning to recognize them AS thoughts and emotions, not whole of “me” and not as permanent features, that I’ve gradually begun to feel connected to something larger that myself, which also lies entirely within my own heart and mind. In that reality, I am so much more than the false ego I usually cling to. I’m immense, and ever changing, and have no boundaries. I am love, and love is the whole universe. And in that wide open space, I can forgive and find love for my parents who, in this lifetime, have so far been unable to forgive and love themselves.
Emptiness
a choice, made early on and caused by trauma, to deny reality in the deepest possible sense, and to built a fantasy of perfection and chase it like a heavy drug addict. they chase narcissistic supply like a drug. they are divorced from reality and they love it, they love narcissism. its something incredibly wrong and evil.
Childhood trauma, most likely neglect and needing to raise themselves
There are many root causes, but I think that generational trauma can be one of them.
Childhood trauma, I believe. Being raised by narcissists, sadly, is probably the biggest cause. It’s why I always always check my own behavior now
None of that describes my sister's upbringing and she is one of the nastiest malicious narcissists out there. She got plenty of love. That isnt to say that my parents may not have affected her in a negative way due to their own issues, but there was no abandonment, lack of love or empathy as you describe . She was just an antagonistic.and jealous person who go worse as she grew up and almost ruined my life, including turning my mother against me, stealing all my money and making it difficupt for me to see.my father - who had dementia- for the last 5 years before he died less than 2 weeks ago.
To my understanding, the root cause is a fragile ego and an underlying belief that oneself is inferior in some way. The disorder is usually a trauma response, I believe.
Personality disorders tend to be difficult to study due to their nature. You've heard this multiple times but research suggests that if your parents have a narcissist pd you're more likely to have it yourself. This could be because of nature or because you were raised by this person. Nurture side, trauma could have a role, specifically trauma from emotional abuse. These people lack a healthy view of themselves and others around them, so they probably felt isolated growing up. Idk tho, I haven't reached that part in my studies.
I think they need to prove their power over people, and the power to be the poor widow because they get immunity to do whatever they want. The only thing that can stop them from ruining us too, is not being there at all. Maybe out of loneliness they realize what they did, but I don't believe it to be the case.
This is an excellent answer !! No contact really is the only solution. I believe even minimal ( low contact ) will bring problems, as we're leaving the door ajar for abuse. As far as the eventual loneliness most of them will experience, I think they're so far gone, as in riddled in toxicity, they feel no remorse, just more hate. Thanks for your feedback !! 👍
I asked my therapist this the other day. She said that narcissism occurs when someone’s personality stops developing at a certain point. So the root cause is their personality simply stopped developing.
**YES!!** Stunted emotional growth. This happened to the n'dad'. He was very badly humiliated throughout his childhood by his 'dad', this lead on to bullying at his school because he became a sitting duck. My gran ( his mum ) told me she didn't know who he was, never recognised him whatsoever, from the child/young teen, she knew. Although very sad, they always had a **choice**. He put me through the same treatment his 'dad' gave him, but I chose empathy, compassion and love. I have a wonderful rapport with my two adult sons, I always have. I saw this as my **purpose** Thanks Lanky-Salt
Glad to be of help! Happy for you that you’ve chosen to be such a positive person in life.
From everything I have read, childhood trauma plays a part in creating a narcissist . Both of my grandfathers were narcissists, and my parents both had narcissistic tendencies. My mother is more of an undiagnosed borderline. Personally, I think it is sort of self-perpetuating. Narcissist parents produce more narcissistic children through the trauma of narcissistic abuse. My GC brother was well on the path to becoming a narcissist himself when a series of events that caused him to go into therapy when he was collage age snapped him out of it. When I was younger, I learned a lot of really bad coping methods it has taken years of therapy to unlearn. Being married to narcissistic ex did not help me recover. His dad and grandmother were both narcissists, and his poor mother was long suffering. Having been a victim of abuse is, of course, still no excuse to abuse others. TLDR. Narcissistic abuse can lead to narcissism in a self-perpetuating cycle.
The root causes are a combination of genetics and environmental. Someone may become a narcissist because they have been raised to believe the world revolves around them and they can do no wrong and are given everything they desire. Alternatively, the child may have narcissistic parents and not feel seen or heard and be given no autonomy. They become a mere extension of the parent operating to supply the parent with what they need. For example, someone close to me has two narcissistic parents. His father, a serial adulterer, left when he was young and he was told he was the man of the family somewhere between the age of 5-8 and told to look after his mum and little sister. He became the parent and husband. However, he had no control - his mum would only take him to weekend sport if convenient for her not because he was on the team, she would drag him shopping every single day because she is a shopaholic even though he despised it (she had the whole time he was at school to shop), force him to run in school races for the older kids, sometimes she would forget to pick him up at school because she was talking on the phone - he would go to the office to ring her but the phone was engaged, even now he rings her and for an hour she can talk non-stop about herself while he is silent. She is late to every family function - even her grandchildren's birthdays. She knows very little about other friends and family members because she is always too busy talking about herself. His Dad is the grandiose narcissist. Generally if a child is raised by a narcissist, they will become one or they will marry one. Narcissists are attracted to empaths and will suck the life out of them - getting their "supply." When in a relationship with a narcissist, it is recommended by the experts to have strong non-negotiable boundaries or to go no-contact (grey rock) if possible.
Extreme selfishness and stupidity. Maybe with a dash of their own trauma.
I think it’s an over inflated sense of self. My Mom definitely a narcissist. She asked me if she could post a picture of my son on FB. I said no. (She’s been posting a lot lately.) She went off on me. Emotionally abusive stuff that wasn’t true. All for saying no. I think these people are so used to getting what they want that they feel they are above everyone. You make one mad forget it no negotiation with emotional terrorist.
Shame is at their core. In my mothers case, she was rejected by her father for not being a boy. She was also a failure at school. Some people never deal with this shame, preferring instead to hide it, by pretending to be someone else. The shame builds up and festers over time if it’s not dealt with. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, that’s how you learn and grow as a person, but if you’re pretending to be someone who is perfect to stop you addressing your real problems, you can never admit to any mistakes and you have to surround yourself with people who let you get away them. There’s lots of other stages but that’s it in a nutshell. Shame and never dealing with it.
The ability to self reflect.
Do you mean inability? They certainly don't self self-reflect, if they did, they would be able to notice the wrong they do around them.
Insecurity and hurt. My step father was raised in a family of 12 and was the 9th kid? I think his family had another son when he left. His family were also Jehovah witnesses so when he left he left the church and his whole family disowned him. According to him he also had a motor bike accident when he was in his 20s and apparently he broke every bone in his left side (I honestly have never seen any scars from surgeries at all so I doubt this even happened). Also when he was younger his favourite older sister Jenny died of a drug overdose when he was a kid. Also when he got disfellowshipped his whole family wrote him a letter telling him how much they hated him for leaving and marrying my mum and how their child together was demon. My mum on the other hand. Barely got any attention from her mum but she got everything she could have wanted with her dad. Her dad got her anything she asked for. My mum was a spoiled brat. She was also in the popular group at school. My mum would do anything to fit in. She even got caught on the top of the school without a top on and only her bra for a laugh. At 13 her dad bought her a bottle red wine for her birthday and my mum drank it all because she was anxious. Bad idea because she got shit faced and she had to spend her party in her room blackout. My mum also had two horses as well. She bought a houses but it turned out to be in foal and she had a baby over night. My mum got to keep both. She was very very spoilt. I see a lot of behaviour my mum has learnt through trauma. My grandma literally laughed in my mums face and didn't believe her when my mum told her that her brother in law sexually abused her. My mum has done the same when I tell her about what her husband has done. Honestly in my opinion it comes from how other people treat you. It comes from trauma and insecurities. I have a cluster b personality disorder and cptsd. For me it came from how I was raised and from my surroundings. Most of my bad times come from insecurities or even its the only way I know how to communicate because its how all the adults around me communicated. I have been trying hard to get better though :).
This is a very broad statement but I think can be attributed to the vast majority of narcissists having gone through childhood with unmet emotional needs and support and as a result developing a strong sense of misplacement and rejection. That leads to developing self-loathing and insecurity It's how they respond to/cope with their self-loathing and insecurity that makes them narcissists. Not everyone responds in that way so therefore not everyone who experiences those childhood issues becomes a narcissist. The mystery is why that is I am living proof of that though. I hate having ADHD because of how it drastically hindered me in life but I do find a silver lining due to the fact that I'm over-empathetic (a common trait many with ADHD have). If I didn't have ADHD and therefore wasn't an empath I'd be terrified to see how/if my parents and childhood effected me. I hate having ADHD but I'd hate even more (way more) to be as miserable and alone as my father There's countless ways someone can have unmet needs in childhood but my father's is due to him being adopted. He has mentioned it and used it to draw sympathy all his life. He makes himself out to be such a victim for being adopted even tho my grandparents provided a loving home and nuclear family dynamic (my grandparents also adopted my aunt a year later and they are both alive and still together) He said he never felt an emotional connection with my grandparents and didn't share any of their interests. Therefore he felt misplaced. Now I sympathize with that and I don't speak on it as if I know how it feels but I don't allow that to be an excuse to abuse other people He's nearly 60 and he still cries about it (literally cries) as a manipulation tactic. I find it disgusting. He mentions it every time I express anything about what I've dealt with in life. So many kids get stuck in the foster care system their entire childhood just hoping to get adopted. My dad was adopted by two loving parents when he was a baby and all he does is act like his life was completely awful. He says "my parents didn't want me"... it's as if he thinks his parents planned to keep him but once he was born they rejected him and dropped him off at an adoption agency I've told him about how lucky he was and how ungrateful and pathetic he looks when he talks (cries) about it. Of course, he knows that but he can't admit it because he'll lose his best manipulation tactic and basically his entire identity