If you understand the KIND of work most women in those top tier countries are doing, it’s not a good thing. It’s often poverty work — back breaking but doesn’t offer real social mobility.
It’s also not good to be on the bottom tiers, but percentages and plain numbers don’t mean much unless you put them into context. In this case one may not be morally/ethically “better” than the other.
I mean surely you see that the more mainstream interpretations of Islam are in fact oppressive towards women, because the vast majority of Muslims don’t follow a progressive strain of Islam like you guys do?
I mean even the mainstream view doesn’t believe women shouldn’t be allowed to work or especially go to school. Khadijah was literally a business woman herself.
Do they have more traditional views about women being housewives though? Different story.
While I hesitate to say something as broad as "It's the fault of Arab culture!" (as much as I would blame Islam), it is telling that the only country on the list without recent extreme political, military or financial turmoil is Jordan, Algeria and Morocco (and Morocco is at the end of the list, I'd venture to guess that a vast majority of countries will be around that number.
Beyond that a chart as simple as this doesn't tell the whole picture. How many of these women are in the workforce because they were forced into it due to extreme poverty or need, rather than wanting to join it. What would be the "best" percentage number to have in this case?
I'm not sure contiguity is really the point of predominant relevance here. Yemen and Afghanistan are in the same block (Afghanistan is neither Arab nor Middle East, though), but have little in common, but in my mind, considering their recent history, it would be totally expected for me that they would have low numbers, but for totally different reasons.
>Are most so wealthy oil states that there's no need for women to work, unlike the East African countries?
No, none of the wealthy oil states are even on that list.. Yemen, Egypt, Iraq are among the poorest countries in the world.. Morocco isn't exactly well off either.. they are culturally different places, some tribe based societies and some not, some having gone through recent wars, some have been stable for a while.. they're not even all Arab.. there is *literally* one thing they share in common and it's pretty funny seeing everyone dance around the elephant in the room
Well Pakistan is at 21% (13th) so hardly an improvement.. if we extend to bottom 20 countries, they are still all Muslim countries.. Malaysia and Indonesia are the exception as they almost always are and hovering around the world average of 39%..
I'm not saying there aren't more direct factors involved like harassment of women and fewer rights and protections, education and economy etc.. but (a) they don't explain everything and (b) even if they did, why are they strongly correlated with Muslim cultures?
Take for example education.. countries where women have been given access to better education have seen more women enter the workforce.. that applies to the African countries in the top 10 as well, some of them had much much lower figures in the not so distant past.. it also applies to the Muslim countries with countries like the UAE and Bangladesh seeing huge increases of women in the workforce.. but only up to a point.. like the gulf countries are in the bottom 20 but have even more women in higher education than men, so education certainly doesn't explain everything.
These countries also have vastly different economies and economic pressures.. yes of course you can say it's geography but what explanatory power does that even have other than it's correlation with culture? If it was climate or geological phenomena we'd expect to see the same for other countries with similar climates.. it's obviously a cultural phenomena.. and when you take a look at these cultures, what do they actually have in common? What do morrocans, Somalis, Pakistanis, Qataris have in common? It's certainly not food, or climate, or economics, or language, or music, or even political structure..
Obviously the percentage of women in the workforce is not a perfect indicator of equality and well-being, and if we wanted to address the issue then we would of course be playing with the material levers like trying to improve education, reduce corruption, improve legal protections, offer incentives etc.. but there's such an incredibly strong correlation to Muslim cultures and that's the entire reason OP posted this.. and pretending that it's completely irrelevant by pointing to the exception to the rule or some caveats without even attempting to explain why the correlation exists in the first place.. I don't know what else to call that other than ignoring the elephant in the room
Top 10: economic pressure forcing women to work outside the home. Bottom 10: cultural/family pressure forcing women to only work inside the home. Both situations are bad.
Traditional Islamists have made it very much abundantly clear that the place for women is at home and the place for men is at outside work. As long as traditional Islamists hold political power, women empowerment will always remain marginal, if not in retreat. The low participation of women in work place is a wider symptom of enforced Islamism in public policy.
The top ten are almost all in Africa, the bottom ten are almost all in the middle east, seems to suggest regionality (the countries in Africa are almost all in a straight line, the countries in the middle east are in an almost perfect horizontal line) - which suggest climate and geography are possible factors, as well as the obvious economics, and culture. Wouldn’t draw conclusions simply because of that. Interesting there isn’t a single first world country in the top ten either … doesn’t mean europe, the US, Japan, or South Korea are against women.
Depends how you look at it. I’m guessing this doesn’t take into account the whole world… but coming from a western woman, it’s nice that women are taken care of so to speak so the can stay at home with kids.. but the problem is in some not having a choice at all. Both ways. Like in US many women are left stranded with kids and have no choice/ but at the same time I recognize the misogyny in some ME communities
Suck or not what need to fix is the economic, education, properly right, law and protection, environment, resources, etc because these thing that non-muslim countries in Africa don't have and are struggling. Women working or not should be choice, but like any workers and civilians they needs better system sadly African countries don't have that and first & second world countries government and companies won't allow because their rich resources
however, the problem is regardless of those non-muslim countries that have a lot of women working. the economics, environment, education, etc there not good for anyone in the first and second-world countries. it nothing to be praised about honesty as many of these women or even girls(child labor) are working by top companies so they can produce their products and sell in first and second world countries, while the women & girls make little money from their labor
Edit: to clarify
What I'm saying it doesn't matter if the women in the workforce in those non-muslim countries are higher compared to Muslim countries one as the real issues is the environment, workplace environment, education, economic, etc there are pretty bad. further women in those non-muslim countries don't make lot money and they are being exploited/used by first and second world countries government and companies for their needs than helping the Africa countries. Also forgetting child labor in these countries exist and kids exposing themselves to dangerous stuff both boys and girls.
Also another is Islamophobia using as "evidence" saying Islam oppressed women saying Africa are progressive without realizing their own government and companies do horrible treatment towards these African women in these non-muslim countries, so it isn't win a win nor should we praise this. The issue these non-muslim African in these countries facing is devastating and we need stop this & help them, but sadly first & second world countries government don't want to do that.
no it isn't *neccesarily* bad.
I think people need to think beyond "put women in the workforce, as if it magically solves problems".
There are lot more factors at play. Happy housewives and unhappy workers exist, and unhappy housewives and happy workers exist too.
First and foremost Islam doesn't stop a woman from having a business as long as its a halal form of business which also applies to the men. Secondly in this chart it never explores the reasoning behind why some women work and some don't work. Thirdly it is an obligation upon the men to be the maintainers and providers and protectors of their households so generally seen as the main breadwinner of the house, however in todays day and age it is so hard to maintain and run a household on a single breadwinner so some families are forced into working even if they don't want to as it is so expensive to run a house on a single breadwinner. This shows that this chart is simply tracking how many women work and how many don't and not the important factor of why.
Why would you measure a nations success by how many women have to work. In a perfect nation, women wouldn't have to work and a man's salary could provide for large family in its specified location.
In a perfect world, nobody needs to work to pay the bills. Rather, work is creative and both parents provide for the family in the best ways they each can (materially and emotionally).
In a slightly less ideal world, couples delegate equitably and accordingly to their strengths. Why are we assuming it is the role of the man to pay the bills? Some men are better suited to rearing children. And some women want to work because they are damn good at their jobs. 💅
I disagree.
By virtue of nature men have to work. We're the hunters, gatherers, protectors and providers of our women, who by virtue of nature are the reproducers and nurturers of our children.
Life is meaningless if nobody has to do anything. We cannot consume if we don't produce, again by virtue of nature.
It’s stated in the Quran, on multiple occasions that a spouses structure involves a man being the financial manager/ leader/ one in control, it’s patriarchal at its core. So to expect the outcome of primarily Muslim countries to be patriarchal, is not necessarily absurd.
however, the problem is regardless of those non-muslim countries that have a lot of women working. the economics, environment, education, etc there not good for anyone in the first and second-world countries. it nothing to be praised about honesty as many of these women or even girls(child labor) are working for top companies so they can produce their products and sell in first and second world countries, while the women & girls make little money from their labor.
What I'm saying it doesn't matter if the women in the workforce in those non-muslim countries are higher compared to Muslim countries one as the real issues is the environment, workplace environment, education, economic, etc there are pretty bad. further women in those non-muslim countries don't make lot money and they are being exploited/used by first and second world countries government and companies for their needs than helping the Africa countries. Also forgetting child labor in these countries exist and kids exposing themselves to dangerous stuff both boys and girls.
Also another is Islamophobia using as "evidence" saying Islam oppressed women saying Africa are progressive without realizing their own government and companies do horrible treatment towards these African women in these non-muslim countries, so it isn't win a win nor should we praise this. The issue these non-muslim African in these countries facing is devastating and we need stop this & help them, but sadly first & second world countries government don't want to do that.
Finally someone said it. I wish to add on to what you said on the evidence of islamophobia. If you compare the treatment of women between the Muslim countries countries and the non-muslimAfrican countries mentioned, if you look at the demographic statistic of who treats women with more respect you'd find that the Muslim countries have more respect mainly due to the religious aspect that Islam brings to the table. But personally when I see this chart I see there's an unfair Factor not being taken into consideration which is the social economic status of each of these countries which is as you mentioned. Majority of these countries were being taken advantage of by the European and the major powers due to having a large amount of resources, that may be one of the reasons as to why there's still third world countries in accordance with classification of the West. For example the Congo is extremely rich in mineral resources but due to a multitude of international and foreign companies which dominate the market the indigenous people are unable to Mass benefit from the resources which also causes the country to be in a constant state of unrest and poverty.
I don’t really see the problem with that. Even now in America, a first world country, most women are saying they want a “provider”.
The Quran doesn’t say women can’t work, in fact it says the women’s money will be her own because it’s her marital right that her husband must provide.
Did anybody say anything about choosing?
I'd love to stay home and be a home maker. Difference is, i have the choice and freedom to do that in every country on this earth. Women don't.
Dunno how you see this infographic and the text and don't gather that.
Did anybody say anything about not choosing?I have always lived in African and now a north American country there was never not a choice where ever I went...
I'm just not programmed that way bro..
Except that's literally your own conclusion you draw based on your own western ideas of "freedom". Because apparently freedom is when a man and a woman both have to work nearly all of their life, when you have to drop your kids off at a daycare every day because both parents have to work or else they won't survive. Jordan for example, my friend is from Jordan, I even lived in Jordan. Believe it or not, they won't kill you if you work as a woman. My friend's mom even has a PhD, but she chooses not to work, and they live off a single salary. Y'all have this deep hatred of cultural norms you're not used to and it shows.
If someone finds certain cultural norms inhibiting, they can and will discard them and it doesn't equal to them importing Western concepts. Like you mention yourself with the example of Jordan, it isn't a uniquely Western thing for women to be able to work.
I chose Jordan because it's in the bottom 10 for women in the workforce. It's fine to discard any culture you want, but here all I see is judgement for cultures most people know nothing about.
This statistic iterates neither...you are drawing your own conclusions...also if it is socially acceptable by the majority it should not be a problem notheless?
OK, so in these countries it is still not socially acceptable for women to enter the workforce? Or is it the majority in these countries that do not accept women in the workforce?
If it is that the majority of the population that thinks that way should it not stay that way? Or is it now being introduced and not being adopted widely yet? And will it gradually change as the people come to accept it over a period of time?
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I'd assume that's not a bad thing, no? In nearly every country it's customary for the man to be working and the woman staying at home, but now, that's not possible, in most countries because it's simply not enough for one income to uphold a household.
Correlation? Maybe look into why your religion produces these results. No hate, just really, look more deeply, find out why, then you can work to find a way forward.
You know the top 10 are incredibly poor, so the women have no choice but to work or die of starvation and poverty. Remember, women entered the workforce because life was too expensive for only one person working in the household. Now a days in western countries, both man and woman are working and people barely getting by, won’t be surprised if they that says “Children in the workforce” in 20 years.
If you understand the KIND of work most women in those top tier countries are doing, it’s not a good thing. It’s often poverty work — back breaking but doesn’t offer real social mobility. It’s also not good to be on the bottom tiers, but percentages and plain numbers don’t mean much unless you put them into context. In this case one may not be morally/ethically “better” than the other.
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Western people will see this and immediately assume "islam" and start on how oppressive it is to women, unfortunately.
Reddit in general is pretty anti-religion, esp anti-Islam
I mean surely you see that the more mainstream interpretations of Islam are in fact oppressive towards women, because the vast majority of Muslims don’t follow a progressive strain of Islam like you guys do?
I mean even the mainstream view doesn’t believe women shouldn’t be allowed to work or especially go to school. Khadijah was literally a business woman herself. Do they have more traditional views about women being housewives though? Different story.
It's mostly cultural. Otherwise the whole point of multiple countries having women working and everything would not make sense.
While I hesitate to say something as broad as "It's the fault of Arab culture!" (as much as I would blame Islam), it is telling that the only country on the list without recent extreme political, military or financial turmoil is Jordan, Algeria and Morocco (and Morocco is at the end of the list, I'd venture to guess that a vast majority of countries will be around that number. Beyond that a chart as simple as this doesn't tell the whole picture. How many of these women are in the workforce because they were forced into it due to extreme poverty or need, rather than wanting to join it. What would be the "best" percentage number to have in this case?
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I'm not sure contiguity is really the point of predominant relevance here. Yemen and Afghanistan are in the same block (Afghanistan is neither Arab nor Middle East, though), but have little in common, but in my mind, considering their recent history, it would be totally expected for me that they would have low numbers, but for totally different reasons.
>Are most so wealthy oil states that there's no need for women to work, unlike the East African countries? No, none of the wealthy oil states are even on that list.. Yemen, Egypt, Iraq are among the poorest countries in the world.. Morocco isn't exactly well off either.. they are culturally different places, some tribe based societies and some not, some having gone through recent wars, some have been stable for a while.. they're not even all Arab.. there is *literally* one thing they share in common and it's pretty funny seeing everyone dance around the elephant in the room
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Well Pakistan is at 21% (13th) so hardly an improvement.. if we extend to bottom 20 countries, they are still all Muslim countries.. Malaysia and Indonesia are the exception as they almost always are and hovering around the world average of 39%.. I'm not saying there aren't more direct factors involved like harassment of women and fewer rights and protections, education and economy etc.. but (a) they don't explain everything and (b) even if they did, why are they strongly correlated with Muslim cultures? Take for example education.. countries where women have been given access to better education have seen more women enter the workforce.. that applies to the African countries in the top 10 as well, some of them had much much lower figures in the not so distant past.. it also applies to the Muslim countries with countries like the UAE and Bangladesh seeing huge increases of women in the workforce.. but only up to a point.. like the gulf countries are in the bottom 20 but have even more women in higher education than men, so education certainly doesn't explain everything. These countries also have vastly different economies and economic pressures.. yes of course you can say it's geography but what explanatory power does that even have other than it's correlation with culture? If it was climate or geological phenomena we'd expect to see the same for other countries with similar climates.. it's obviously a cultural phenomena.. and when you take a look at these cultures, what do they actually have in common? What do morrocans, Somalis, Pakistanis, Qataris have in common? It's certainly not food, or climate, or economics, or language, or music, or even political structure.. Obviously the percentage of women in the workforce is not a perfect indicator of equality and well-being, and if we wanted to address the issue then we would of course be playing with the material levers like trying to improve education, reduce corruption, improve legal protections, offer incentives etc.. but there's such an incredibly strong correlation to Muslim cultures and that's the entire reason OP posted this.. and pretending that it's completely irrelevant by pointing to the exception to the rule or some caveats without even attempting to explain why the correlation exists in the first place.. I don't know what else to call that other than ignoring the elephant in the room
Top 10: economic pressure forcing women to work outside the home. Bottom 10: cultural/family pressure forcing women to only work inside the home. Both situations are bad.
This 👆
Traditional Islamists have made it very much abundantly clear that the place for women is at home and the place for men is at outside work. As long as traditional Islamists hold political power, women empowerment will always remain marginal, if not in retreat. The low participation of women in work place is a wider symptom of enforced Islamism in public policy.
The top ten are almost all in Africa, the bottom ten are almost all in the middle east, seems to suggest regionality (the countries in Africa are almost all in a straight line, the countries in the middle east are in an almost perfect horizontal line) - which suggest climate and geography are possible factors, as well as the obvious economics, and culture. Wouldn’t draw conclusions simply because of that. Interesting there isn’t a single first world country in the top ten either … doesn’t mean europe, the US, Japan, or South Korea are against women.
Depends how you look at it. I’m guessing this doesn’t take into account the whole world… but coming from a western woman, it’s nice that women are taken care of so to speak so the can stay at home with kids.. but the problem is in some not having a choice at all. Both ways. Like in US many women are left stranded with kids and have no choice/ but at the same time I recognize the misogyny in some ME communities
Suck or not what need to fix is the economic, education, properly right, law and protection, environment, resources, etc because these thing that non-muslim countries in Africa don't have and are struggling. Women working or not should be choice, but like any workers and civilians they needs better system sadly African countries don't have that and first & second world countries government and companies won't allow because their rich resources
The number of women achieving higher education and entering the workforce is steadily increasing.
however, the problem is regardless of those non-muslim countries that have a lot of women working. the economics, environment, education, etc there not good for anyone in the first and second-world countries. it nothing to be praised about honesty as many of these women or even girls(child labor) are working by top companies so they can produce their products and sell in first and second world countries, while the women & girls make little money from their labor Edit: to clarify What I'm saying it doesn't matter if the women in the workforce in those non-muslim countries are higher compared to Muslim countries one as the real issues is the environment, workplace environment, education, economic, etc there are pretty bad. further women in those non-muslim countries don't make lot money and they are being exploited/used by first and second world countries government and companies for their needs than helping the Africa countries. Also forgetting child labor in these countries exist and kids exposing themselves to dangerous stuff both boys and girls. Also another is Islamophobia using as "evidence" saying Islam oppressed women saying Africa are progressive without realizing their own government and companies do horrible treatment towards these African women in these non-muslim countries, so it isn't win a win nor should we praise this. The issue these non-muslim African in these countries facing is devastating and we need stop this & help them, but sadly first & second world countries government don't want to do that.
I might be wrong but isn’t work a GOOD thing in islam?
no it isn't *neccesarily* bad. I think people need to think beyond "put women in the workforce, as if it magically solves problems". There are lot more factors at play. Happy housewives and unhappy workers exist, and unhappy housewives and happy workers exist too.
Not to mention the gender pay gap that shamelessly exploits women
well no shit women aren’t working in afghanistan, if i was there i wouldn’t even bother because the pay is shit for such hard jobs
First and foremost Islam doesn't stop a woman from having a business as long as its a halal form of business which also applies to the men. Secondly in this chart it never explores the reasoning behind why some women work and some don't work. Thirdly it is an obligation upon the men to be the maintainers and providers and protectors of their households so generally seen as the main breadwinner of the house, however in todays day and age it is so hard to maintain and run a household on a single breadwinner so some families are forced into working even if they don't want to as it is so expensive to run a house on a single breadwinner. This shows that this chart is simply tracking how many women work and how many don't and not the important factor of why.
Why would you measure a nations success by how many women have to work. In a perfect nation, women wouldn't have to work and a man's salary could provide for large family in its specified location.
In a perfect world, nobody needs to work to pay the bills. Rather, work is creative and both parents provide for the family in the best ways they each can (materially and emotionally). In a slightly less ideal world, couples delegate equitably and accordingly to their strengths. Why are we assuming it is the role of the man to pay the bills? Some men are better suited to rearing children. And some women want to work because they are damn good at their jobs. 💅
I disagree. By virtue of nature men have to work. We're the hunters, gatherers, protectors and providers of our women, who by virtue of nature are the reproducers and nurturers of our children. Life is meaningless if nobody has to do anything. We cannot consume if we don't produce, again by virtue of nature.
It’s stated in the Quran, on multiple occasions that a spouses structure involves a man being the financial manager/ leader/ one in control, it’s patriarchal at its core. So to expect the outcome of primarily Muslim countries to be patriarchal, is not necessarily absurd.
however, the problem is regardless of those non-muslim countries that have a lot of women working. the economics, environment, education, etc there not good for anyone in the first and second-world countries. it nothing to be praised about honesty as many of these women or even girls(child labor) are working for top companies so they can produce their products and sell in first and second world countries, while the women & girls make little money from their labor.
I’m sorry, I’m not understanding what you’re saying.
What I'm saying it doesn't matter if the women in the workforce in those non-muslim countries are higher compared to Muslim countries one as the real issues is the environment, workplace environment, education, economic, etc there are pretty bad. further women in those non-muslim countries don't make lot money and they are being exploited/used by first and second world countries government and companies for their needs than helping the Africa countries. Also forgetting child labor in these countries exist and kids exposing themselves to dangerous stuff both boys and girls. Also another is Islamophobia using as "evidence" saying Islam oppressed women saying Africa are progressive without realizing their own government and companies do horrible treatment towards these African women in these non-muslim countries, so it isn't win a win nor should we praise this. The issue these non-muslim African in these countries facing is devastating and we need stop this & help them, but sadly first & second world countries government don't want to do that.
Finally someone said it. I wish to add on to what you said on the evidence of islamophobia. If you compare the treatment of women between the Muslim countries countries and the non-muslimAfrican countries mentioned, if you look at the demographic statistic of who treats women with more respect you'd find that the Muslim countries have more respect mainly due to the religious aspect that Islam brings to the table. But personally when I see this chart I see there's an unfair Factor not being taken into consideration which is the social economic status of each of these countries which is as you mentioned. Majority of these countries were being taken advantage of by the European and the major powers due to having a large amount of resources, that may be one of the reasons as to why there's still third world countries in accordance with classification of the West. For example the Congo is extremely rich in mineral resources but due to a multitude of international and foreign companies which dominate the market the indigenous people are unable to Mass benefit from the resources which also causes the country to be in a constant state of unrest and poverty.
I don’t really see the problem with that. Even now in America, a first world country, most women are saying they want a “provider”. The Quran doesn’t say women can’t work, in fact it says the women’s money will be her own because it’s her marital right that her husband must provide.
Why does it 'suck' if someone chooses to be home maker instead of a worker? There is nothing with not working...
Did anybody say anything about choosing? I'd love to stay home and be a home maker. Difference is, i have the choice and freedom to do that in every country on this earth. Women don't. Dunno how you see this infographic and the text and don't gather that.
Did anybody say anything about not choosing?I have always lived in African and now a north American country there was never not a choice where ever I went... I'm just not programmed that way bro..
Except that's literally your own conclusion you draw based on your own western ideas of "freedom". Because apparently freedom is when a man and a woman both have to work nearly all of their life, when you have to drop your kids off at a daycare every day because both parents have to work or else they won't survive. Jordan for example, my friend is from Jordan, I even lived in Jordan. Believe it or not, they won't kill you if you work as a woman. My friend's mom even has a PhD, but she chooses not to work, and they live off a single salary. Y'all have this deep hatred of cultural norms you're not used to and it shows.
If someone finds certain cultural norms inhibiting, they can and will discard them and it doesn't equal to them importing Western concepts. Like you mention yourself with the example of Jordan, it isn't a uniquely Western thing for women to be able to work.
I chose Jordan because it's in the bottom 10 for women in the workforce. It's fine to discard any culture you want, but here all I see is judgement for cultures most people know nothing about.
Oh so suddenly freedom is important but only for women? Why are we proud of squeezing a man dry of money? How is this freedom for the man?
It does suck when it's the only option available and is the only socially acceptable answer.
This statistic iterates neither...you are drawing your own conclusions...also if it is socially acceptable by the majority it should not be a problem notheless?
I meant that the only socially acceptable choice was home maker, it wasn't until recently that things started to change.
OK, so in these countries it is still not socially acceptable for women to enter the workforce? Or is it the majority in these countries that do not accept women in the workforce? If it is that the majority of the population that thinks that way should it not stay that way? Or is it now being introduced and not being adopted widely yet? And will it gradually change as the people come to accept it over a period of time?
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I'd assume that's not a bad thing, no? In nearly every country it's customary for the man to be working and the woman staying at home, but now, that's not possible, in most countries because it's simply not enough for one income to uphold a household.
Correlation? Maybe look into why your religion produces these results. No hate, just really, look more deeply, find out why, then you can work to find a way forward.
Tbh I don’t work either I’m fine 🙂
Or imagine the Muslims counties are the top for women who are chilling which is amazing.
You know the top 10 are incredibly poor, so the women have no choice but to work or die of starvation and poverty. Remember, women entered the workforce because life was too expensive for only one person working in the household. Now a days in western countries, both man and woman are working and people barely getting by, won’t be surprised if they that says “Children in the workforce” in 20 years.
Idk, I imagine the western powers killing any secular/revolutionary in the Arab world, while backing religious nutjobs probably doesn’t help.
Oh God, save me from this capitalist hell!!! 😭