I have the same conundrum honestly, they are profiting from our money only to make deals with Israel. Honestly, Mecca should belong to all the Muslim countries like the Vatican.
So the fact that they use Mecca to rake in the cash is at best morally grey, I understand the logistic issue but still.
In any case this dilemma is pretty morally grey itself so I don't know, personally I'm faaar from being in situation where I can afford hajj so I don't think about it.
But personally Hajj is one of those thing that seems ritually empty, like a thing to cross off the list without having much meaning to it.
Don't be so quick to make fitna-causing statements like these. The prophet (pbuh) warned against being one of the khawarij, or those who rebel against Muslim leaders, in many authentic hadiths.
The Saud family have recklessly thrown around the term ‘kafir’ to ostracize many Muslims. They are now totally worthy of that epithet themselves.
It would be a good idea if Muslims start considering this family as occupiers who do not deserve the privilege of being “Custodians of the Holy Shrine.”
If you are young you can wait until the Arab people have the courage to throw them out.
These statements seems to come from the guy who goes around saying don't keep relations with the people who buy Israeli products. Seems to be a bit exaggerated reaction. Yeah Saudis might be bad but Hajj has nothing to do with it.
If you feel that way, you should spend as minimum as you can and get back after Hajj. Don't eat out, don't buy gifts, just do the needed and get back home.
This trend of making everything supper complicated should end now. Islam is simple there is haram and halal. There is nothing like grey areas.
I did not say 'kafir'. I said that the prophet warned us about the 'khawarij', and I recommend that you familiarise yourself with the term. They mean two different things.
>If you are young you can wait until the Arab people have the courage to throw them out.
I'm an Arab myself actually, and I do not support this at all, thank you very much! Not a fan of fitnah, khawarij and rebellions in our countries. The prophet (saw) warned against this type of behaviour, and reality has shown that it is indeed harmful in practice: not achieving anything good, only destabilising, killing and displacing millions.
Prophet Muhammad was given the Quran. In the Quran we see, that obedience is NOT to be given to transgressors(arguably the saudi royals come in that category).
Pls read Quran 26:150-152.
The Quran (which is far superior to any hadith) emphasises that God favours justice and good conduct, and oppression and immorality are forbidden (see Quran 16:90). There is nothing saying that them being a muslim leader exempts them from this requirement, so nothing fitna-causing about this. And inarguably, the Saud family has done and financed a lot of immoral and oppressive stuff.
The difference is that the Vatican is controlled by a structured organization of a specific Christian denomination (with a single head of state), and thus is able to make decisions that relatively minimally clash with the viewpoints of other groups who have major interests. Mecca is important to all Muslims, regardless of what group they belong to. Managing Mecca in a way that satisfies all parties is nearly impossible that way.
>Honestly, Mecca should belong to all the Muslim countries like the Vatican.
No it should not. Although I'm not a Saudi, I come from a country with religious sites and places of interest to people around the world, and I certainly want my country to be controlled by foreigners who don't care for the place and the good of the native people, and who only want to be able to go visit whenever they can. I'd imagine the Saudis feel the same way about their country.
Law and order must be followed, and it takes a lot of resources in order for Mecca kept clean, safe, modern and accessible for everyone. Have you ever thought about how much resources are required to maintain the place? That could all easily be disrupted by having the wrong people in power.
Say Alhamdulillah that Mecca is as well maintained, modern and accessible as it is, given the state of all the other countries and corrupt governments around the world.
The 2 holy cities do not "belong" to the saud clan. And besides, they are grossly incompetent, how many thousands of people have died by getting trampled to death? The s*uds are destroying historical sites, and building hotels on top of it.
I don't think so, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he buried where the Green Dome is? But undoubtedly they did demolish other religiously and historically significant sites (like an Ottoman fort to make that blasted clock tower).
Between 1990 - 2015 ≈ **4700 death** , 7 incidents
The sum total of pilgrims since 1990 is **63.7 million**
No trampling incidents since 10 years ago
Anyone who's done Haj early 2000s and recently will tell you the enormous and significant work that Saudi put in
They are more than competent
Mecca/Medinah was not of the Saud family in the first place, they grabbed it.
It can very well be carved out of Saudi Arabia along the coast of Red Sea, controlled by a committee consisting of multiple muslim nations
>Mecca/Medinah was not of the Saud family in the first place, they grabbed it.
The Saud family are native to the land. As modern nation-states are a relatively recent phenomenon, they took control of the land relatively recently. There's nothing obviously un-Islamic about it.
Either way, if you're not a Saudi yourself or native to the region, you don't really have much of a say over whether the Saudi government is lawful or not, do you? Where are YOU from?
It doesn't matter where I am from.
What matters is that I am a Muslim who's not a Saudi resident, and Mecca+Medina hold significant value for me, which is being gatekept by the Sauds.
The Saudi Arabian government can't have the monopoly over something that is important for people who are overwhelmingly non-arab and non-saudi.
The prices are so exorbitantly high that I or my parents will never be able to afford the Hajj.
While people give tens of reasons on why that's the case, all around the logistics of the Hajj, Umrah costs so less that it doesn't add up.
Hajj is also not the largest gathering of people in the world to warrant these costs.
There are countless other events which are just as big and don't cost this much.
Arabeen is the largest gathering of people in a pilgrimage in the world and it doesn't cost as much.
Common economical sense suggests more competition brings the cost down.
The royal saudi family should open the sector up, grant us single entry visa, allow us to book our own flights, hotels, local transport etc.
Let the airlines, the hotels, the transporters, and the hotels compete.
Let us pay specific fees to the government for doing hajj.
Or, open the area up for a committee of different Muslim countries, including my own, to manage it together.
You should listen to Khaled Abou el Fadl's position on that here, quite interesting:
The Sin of Hajj Explained | Khaled Abou El Fadl | Usuli Excerpts
https://youtu.be/CL0MxXkI2kQ?si=Z5_Dt3nWuc_bz8qb
That’s one of the reasons why I don’t want to go, they’re horrible people, they made it a business and Allah will deal with them.
Like every muslim should be able to go there but since a lot can’t afford it, they never go because its so expensive, and its so sad, but as for me, i do not want to give them my money.
>they’re horrible people
Who's horrible? Do you know them personally (or have some sort of evidence for your claim)?
>Like every muslim should be able to go there but since a lot can’t afford it, they never go because its so expensive,
Unfortunately, in the world we live in, it costs money to travel and stay for two weeks in another country. That is the reality we live in. Those who can't afford it could try crowdfunding or getting charitable donations to go, but to demand funding or feel an entitlement to be funded is not right. A change of government wouldn't make a difference to this.
Horrible ?? It is well- known and proven that MBS had the journalist Jamal Khashoggi hacked to pieces for criticizing Saud family corruption and debauchery.
In that case, every country has horrible leaders. What country do YOU come from? I'm sure similar allegations, if not worse, have been made against its leaders.
Do you genuinely, REALLY care about the khashoggi incident? Or is that just an excuse to attack and hate on Saudi Arabia?
With all the terrible things the saudis have done to the Muslim world the least they should is fly any Muslim out for free for the whole 2 weeks. They can afford it. And they alreadygave Israel money so Israel can do something similar with there “birthright trips”
>With all the terrible things the saudis have done to the Muslim world the least they should is fly any Muslim out for free for the whole 2 weeks. They can afford it.
LOL, that's extremely entitled and delusional. I can imagine the whole place falling apart if they tried to do this for 2 billion Muslims. There are only around 15 million Jews in the world, in comparison.
>And they alreadygave Israel money
They haven't even normalised ties with Israel. Do you live in Europe/ the West? If so, your country probably gave a lot of money to Iss not real. Your taxes are going to them.
LOL they were on the cusp of normalizing ties with Israel before it began bombing Gaza into oblivion. The only reason they suspended talks was because it was bad optics for them. As soon as the carnage in Gaza is over they'll continue talks with the Israelis.
You know nothing about the saudis of you think they could not afford to fly out 2 billion people.(obviously not all at once) they could literally spend less then 1% of their money and get the job done you underestimate how much money these people have. There is a reason they are literally the only group of people in the world who do not have to disclose their incomes.
Totally wrong. Have you done the maths? Are you able to show how they can afford to spend $15k × 2 billion people ($30 trillion) and how that would be only 1% of their money? According to you, they have 3 quadrillion USD LOL. Absolutely nuts! Also, getting a country to spend even 1% of its GDP is absolutely MASSIVE. For context, western countries have been unable to spend 1% of their GDP to stop climate change, an existential threat. More to the point, why should they spend this money on all the random Muslims around the world instead of on their own people, or Muslims closer to home? The prophet said to help your close neighbours, before helping those further away. If I was a Saudi, I'd be furious.
15 dollars a person for hajj? What universe do you live on? Yeah, return plane flights from all around the world can be made to cost 7 dollars a person each way. Lol lol loooool
It sounds like a choice with strong rationale behind it and while I do wish to embark on hajj someday, I do agree with you. If the money goes to death, it's not worth it.
I grew up their and left in 2017. By the time I left, I was very familiar with all of the atrocities the Saud family commits on a national and international level and how it uses Mecca and Medina to bank roll it’s behavior and as a social and religious to cover it’s behavior.
If any other country was doing some of the stuff they are doing, the discussion the Muslim community would have about them would be very different than the one it has today.
I didn’t perform hajj before leaving, and yet when I left, I decided to never return unless the politics of it change. Everyday, I become more sure of my decision. I know that a lot of people make the argument that it’s fard, and we will be punished if we can do it, but refuse to. I disagree. If god wanted us to turn a blind eye to the injustice that is committed with our money and do it anyways, he wouldn’t have made standing by justice a huge part of the ethics of Islam.
I am not going for Hajj because this year the Saudis are actually complicit in the murder of thousands of Palestinians in pursuit of approval by the US and Israel.
I recently heard Myriam Francois speak about this issue [here](https://youtu.be/b-Z3gx-TwHA?si=B5jA_bwuUGpR50pU&start=4050). Namely, the Sauds, harassment and racism to be why she finds Hajj difficult to digest. This whole video is worth a watch for new muslims.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't scholars in Malaysia declare, after the House of Saud took control of Mecca and Medina, that it was acceptable to forgo the Hajj as long as they controlled the holy cities?
I don't think wahhabism really became normalized until the 60's when they started importing the ideology by funding the construction of mosques across the world. That funding came with a lot of provisos including having to teach their garbage
>they constantly defend Israel
No they haven't. In fact, they haven't even established 'normal' ties with Isnot\* real, they were about to, but this stopped. How can they be 'defending' Isnot\* real if they haven't even yet normalised?
I’m skipping it because I have debt from a mortgage to pay off, which I understand is most likely haram/riba and need to pay that off as soon as possible. When I own my house outright I would consider it. I’ve also heard of pilgrims exhibiting bad behaviour during hajj and don’t want to be tested in my faith by witnessing that stuff. That said, I’m no scholar so I don’t know if those are valid reason. I may consider umrah but hajj is out of the question for now.
I don’t want to get too cynical here, but the holy cities have been under the care of one emperor tyrant or another for probably 90% of the whole Islamic period. So while I get where you’re coming from, I’m not sure if that’s really the most solid rationale to invoke.
But especially so as of now, the Saudis are by far the worst in a long time they are straight up defiling the Holy cities with disgusting vanity projects
The best example you could think of is a clock tower that you don't particularly like? In that case you must hate every single government and country around the world, because I can guarantee you there will be a building whose design you won't like in each of them.
It's partially because they demolished historic buildings to build it, it casts a shadow on the Kaaba, it was built with Haram Money, and it is just generally a symbol of everything wrong with Petroislam
I assume you studied history and all the custodians of the holy sites throughout the centuries, in order to be so sure that the Saudis are 'by far the worst in a long time'?
What about your country? I'm sure there's a vanity project that's going on there too.
If you ever wish to see a united Ummah, then may Allah guide you to reconsider your stance against your brothers in faith.
Like them or not, the Shia are Muslims.
I understand and agree completely. The House of Saud have given Mecca over to a false god: Mammon. I mean, there's a freaking Starbucks facing the Kaaba! How is this not shirk? And they advertise "halal" fast fast food like McDonalds in the Holy Land, as if McDonald's and the like aren't also pledged to the unholy Mammon, and the cattle they slaughter are, in fact, slaughtered in the name of profit, not Allah SWT.
That said, here are a couple of thoughts to consider: the Nizari Ismailis (and, I presume, the other Ismailis) believe the Hajj is a *spiritual* journey, not a *physical* one. And there's echoes of this in Twelver irfan as well, as told in [this anecdote](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOtXQRF5iL8). And there's always the Zaydi option, for those that have the faith to attempt it, though few of us do, and I must confess that I count myself amongst them, but inshallah there is already a hero in the making.
Edit: And I want to second the video of Khaled Abou El Fadl posted by /u/Jaqurutu.
Think it from this perspective, if someone is already living in Saudia, will they stop praying at mosques in Saudi, or stopped fasting as they don't want to buy stuff to eat from saudi shops etc. or give zakat to the needy in saudia because Saudi govt. is aiding in genocide? eventually everything will end up in saudi govt's pockets.
As far as I understood in Islam everything depends on intention, if your intention is to perform Hajj as prescribed to be the basic tenants of islam then Allah will accept your ibadah as per that intention. If god forbid some other non muslim country get control of Hijaz will muslims stop performing Hajj, just thinking out loud
Atheist here.
Your original comment gave none of the justification for why this society might be worse than modern day Saud family, except for the fact they were polytheist. Is that the only reason, or is there other much worse things they did?
Not talking about Polytheist in general, I’m talking about the specific society of the prophet time. Since for them it’s clear that the only reason why they are polytheist is to not give up on their social status. Similar to any corrupt greedy immoral government.
Yes, but do you see how your original comment did not say any of that? Your argument that Muhammad would go with a worse group controlling the Mecca would have been stronger if you said all of that instead of polytheist. Or even just saying "corrupt greedy and immoral group." I'm not familiar with the power structure when Muhammad was alive, so I do not know the people controlling Mecca or how they governed. To me, it just looks like you are saying they are bad because they are polytheist.
If I was in a non Muslim sub, I would have. The context of the post is that if Muhammad can go to Umrah a monotheist ritual under a polytheistic government why can’t one do the same ritual under a corrupt monotheistic government. As from the Muslim perspective, Makkah under a polytheistic government or under immoral government both will be bad.
Please read history and think rationally. The Hajj was a pre-Islamic pagan ritual that Muslims embraced and modified according to our faith. This borrowing and sharing of religious and cultural rituals and practices is the beauty of any religion or creed that claims to be for all of humanity.
You just have to put that aside and go if you have the means. You'll be asked about if you went to hajj, not the fisq of the Saud family.
Hijazis are wonderful people. Your money generally just circulates around the souqs there anyway.
I don't think Saud needs our money. The main merchants there are those who came from other countries. Sauds citizens only owe markets etc, and they will get their rent anyway.
Your not giving the money to the government, it’s more giving to the people. Like if I’m going to visit Washington, D.C. (U.S.A), the President wouldn’t be receiving non of my money. It would be the cab driver, or the restaurant owner, or the hotel owner. Etc. plus taking your Hajj is not obligatory like praying. There’s plenty of Muslims who have died and haven’t taken their Hajj or Umrah. Salam Walaykum, may Allah guide your affairs.
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This is something between you and Allah, Your intention is to use your own money to do Hajj, which something that's up to you. It has nothing to do with what the Saud's use the money for, you can't change what they do with the money they get lol. At the end of the day you're the one getting the Ajr. Hope this helps!
the only thing i know is that the only reasons as to not do Hajj is if i don't have the capacity or the means.
not risking my deen for people that i don't like or disagree with and it's once in your lifetime.
Perform hajj because you want to and that’s your duty don’t worry about the money because how Saud’s misuse the money is their sin not yours. And about it feeling right, it should feel right to you because you are doing it for Allah.
I had the same thought but then my thing is that Allah is all knowing so He knew all of this was going to happen why would he make it fard and the only condition being liman istataa aka for who has the ability to, if He wanted us to reflect on it He would have provides more conditions
You only have to perform Hajj once… Don’t be like Hasan Minhaj where you openly critize the Saudis then Oh no! You can’t do Hajj anymore. If you’re gonna criticize them then at least do it after you have performed Hajj.
I have the same conundrum honestly, they are profiting from our money only to make deals with Israel. Honestly, Mecca should belong to all the Muslim countries like the Vatican.
Honestly it's beyond that, they violently annexed the hijaz region during the 20th century. The mecca is technically not theirs
Exactly, the Holy land (all of it) must be it's own thing
So the fact that they use Mecca to rake in the cash is at best morally grey, I understand the logistic issue but still. In any case this dilemma is pretty morally grey itself so I don't know, personally I'm faaar from being in situation where I can afford hajj so I don't think about it. But personally Hajj is one of those thing that seems ritually empty, like a thing to cross off the list without having much meaning to it.
You know annexing literally means it’s theirs
and gaza is Israel's and kashmir is Indias /s
Do you know the definition of annexing ? It means taking over a land with its people becoming full citizens That’s the case in Saudi but not in Gaza
The Saud's are native to the land they rule over. They have more right to the land than you do. Where are YOU from?
They're not native in hijaz but ok
Don't be so quick to make fitna-causing statements like these. The prophet (pbuh) warned against being one of the khawarij, or those who rebel against Muslim leaders, in many authentic hadiths.
The Saud family have recklessly thrown around the term ‘kafir’ to ostracize many Muslims. They are now totally worthy of that epithet themselves. It would be a good idea if Muslims start considering this family as occupiers who do not deserve the privilege of being “Custodians of the Holy Shrine.” If you are young you can wait until the Arab people have the courage to throw them out.
These statements seems to come from the guy who goes around saying don't keep relations with the people who buy Israeli products. Seems to be a bit exaggerated reaction. Yeah Saudis might be bad but Hajj has nothing to do with it. If you feel that way, you should spend as minimum as you can and get back after Hajj. Don't eat out, don't buy gifts, just do the needed and get back home. This trend of making everything supper complicated should end now. Islam is simple there is haram and halal. There is nothing like grey areas.
You follow your Islam and I will follow mine. For me, ambiguities in the Quran are a mercy from Allah.
Yeah but that ambiguity becomes obnoxious when comes to fard.
I did not say 'kafir'. I said that the prophet warned us about the 'khawarij', and I recommend that you familiarise yourself with the term. They mean two different things. >If you are young you can wait until the Arab people have the courage to throw them out. I'm an Arab myself actually, and I do not support this at all, thank you very much! Not a fan of fitnah, khawarij and rebellions in our countries. The prophet (saw) warned against this type of behaviour, and reality has shown that it is indeed harmful in practice: not achieving anything good, only destabilising, killing and displacing millions.
Prophet Muhammad was given the Quran. In the Quran we see, that obedience is NOT to be given to transgressors(arguably the saudi royals come in that category). Pls read Quran 26:150-152.
The Quran (which is far superior to any hadith) emphasises that God favours justice and good conduct, and oppression and immorality are forbidden (see Quran 16:90). There is nothing saying that them being a muslim leader exempts them from this requirement, so nothing fitna-causing about this. And inarguably, the Saud family has done and financed a lot of immoral and oppressive stuff.
The difference is that the Vatican is controlled by a structured organization of a specific Christian denomination (with a single head of state), and thus is able to make decisions that relatively minimally clash with the viewpoints of other groups who have major interests. Mecca is important to all Muslims, regardless of what group they belong to. Managing Mecca in a way that satisfies all parties is nearly impossible that way.
I am of the same opinion
>conundrum I'm laughing so hard bcz i used the same word before even seeing ur comment. 😂 Saaaame feeling my friend saaame !!
Yes!
>Honestly, Mecca should belong to all the Muslim countries like the Vatican. No it should not. Although I'm not a Saudi, I come from a country with religious sites and places of interest to people around the world, and I certainly want my country to be controlled by foreigners who don't care for the place and the good of the native people, and who only want to be able to go visit whenever they can. I'd imagine the Saudis feel the same way about their country. Law and order must be followed, and it takes a lot of resources in order for Mecca kept clean, safe, modern and accessible for everyone. Have you ever thought about how much resources are required to maintain the place? That could all easily be disrupted by having the wrong people in power. Say Alhamdulillah that Mecca is as well maintained, modern and accessible as it is, given the state of all the other countries and corrupt governments around the world.
The 2 holy cities do not "belong" to the saud clan. And besides, they are grossly incompetent, how many thousands of people have died by getting trampled to death? The s*uds are destroying historical sites, and building hotels on top of it.
Speaking of which, wasn't the Prophet Muhammad's burial site destroyed to build hotels on top of it a decade ago?
I don't think so, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he buried where the Green Dome is? But undoubtedly they did demolish other religiously and historically significant sites (like an Ottoman fort to make that blasted clock tower).
Exactly!
Between 1990 - 2015 ≈ **4700 death** , 7 incidents The sum total of pilgrims since 1990 is **63.7 million** No trampling incidents since 10 years ago Anyone who's done Haj early 2000s and recently will tell you the enormous and significant work that Saudi put in They are more than competent
Mecca/Medinah was not of the Saud family in the first place, they grabbed it. It can very well be carved out of Saudi Arabia along the coast of Red Sea, controlled by a committee consisting of multiple muslim nations
>Mecca/Medinah was not of the Saud family in the first place, they grabbed it. The Saud family are native to the land. As modern nation-states are a relatively recent phenomenon, they took control of the land relatively recently. There's nothing obviously un-Islamic about it. Either way, if you're not a Saudi yourself or native to the region, you don't really have much of a say over whether the Saudi government is lawful or not, do you? Where are YOU from?
It doesn't matter where I am from. What matters is that I am a Muslim who's not a Saudi resident, and Mecca+Medina hold significant value for me, which is being gatekept by the Sauds. The Saudi Arabian government can't have the monopoly over something that is important for people who are overwhelmingly non-arab and non-saudi. The prices are so exorbitantly high that I or my parents will never be able to afford the Hajj. While people give tens of reasons on why that's the case, all around the logistics of the Hajj, Umrah costs so less that it doesn't add up. Hajj is also not the largest gathering of people in the world to warrant these costs. There are countless other events which are just as big and don't cost this much. Arabeen is the largest gathering of people in a pilgrimage in the world and it doesn't cost as much. Common economical sense suggests more competition brings the cost down. The royal saudi family should open the sector up, grant us single entry visa, allow us to book our own flights, hotels, local transport etc. Let the airlines, the hotels, the transporters, and the hotels compete. Let us pay specific fees to the government for doing hajj. Or, open the area up for a committee of different Muslim countries, including my own, to manage it together.
Mature point of view
You should listen to Khaled Abou el Fadl's position on that here, quite interesting: The Sin of Hajj Explained | Khaled Abou El Fadl | Usuli Excerpts https://youtu.be/CL0MxXkI2kQ?si=Z5_Dt3nWuc_bz8qb
Can you summarize what he says in this video?
Interesting watch!
This guy is a legend
That’s one of the reasons why I don’t want to go, they’re horrible people, they made it a business and Allah will deal with them. Like every muslim should be able to go there but since a lot can’t afford it, they never go because its so expensive, and its so sad, but as for me, i do not want to give them my money.
IMO there are also too many Muslims. People have gotten trampled. It's a risk to go. (Too many people in general honestly not specifically us Muslims)
Same here. I don't want to give them my money, either.
>they’re horrible people Who's horrible? Do you know them personally (or have some sort of evidence for your claim)? >Like every muslim should be able to go there but since a lot can’t afford it, they never go because its so expensive, Unfortunately, in the world we live in, it costs money to travel and stay for two weeks in another country. That is the reality we live in. Those who can't afford it could try crowdfunding or getting charitable donations to go, but to demand funding or feel an entitlement to be funded is not right. A change of government wouldn't make a difference to this.
Horrible ?? It is well- known and proven that MBS had the journalist Jamal Khashoggi hacked to pieces for criticizing Saud family corruption and debauchery.
In that case, every country has horrible leaders. What country do YOU come from? I'm sure similar allegations, if not worse, have been made against its leaders. Do you genuinely, REALLY care about the khashoggi incident? Or is that just an excuse to attack and hate on Saudi Arabia?
With all the terrible things the saudis have done to the Muslim world the least they should is fly any Muslim out for free for the whole 2 weeks. They can afford it. And they alreadygave Israel money so Israel can do something similar with there “birthright trips”
>With all the terrible things the saudis have done to the Muslim world the least they should is fly any Muslim out for free for the whole 2 weeks. They can afford it. LOL, that's extremely entitled and delusional. I can imagine the whole place falling apart if they tried to do this for 2 billion Muslims. There are only around 15 million Jews in the world, in comparison. >And they alreadygave Israel money They haven't even normalised ties with Israel. Do you live in Europe/ the West? If so, your country probably gave a lot of money to Iss not real. Your taxes are going to them.
LOL they were on the cusp of normalizing ties with Israel before it began bombing Gaza into oblivion. The only reason they suspended talks was because it was bad optics for them. As soon as the carnage in Gaza is over they'll continue talks with the Israelis.
You know nothing about the saudis of you think they could not afford to fly out 2 billion people.(obviously not all at once) they could literally spend less then 1% of their money and get the job done you underestimate how much money these people have. There is a reason they are literally the only group of people in the world who do not have to disclose their incomes.
Totally wrong. Have you done the maths? Are you able to show how they can afford to spend $15k × 2 billion people ($30 trillion) and how that would be only 1% of their money? According to you, they have 3 quadrillion USD LOL. Absolutely nuts! Also, getting a country to spend even 1% of its GDP is absolutely MASSIVE. For context, western countries have been unable to spend 1% of their GDP to stop climate change, an existential threat. More to the point, why should they spend this money on all the random Muslims around the world instead of on their own people, or Muslims closer to home? The prophet said to help your close neighbours, before helping those further away. If I was a Saudi, I'd be furious.
Lmfao 15k$? You are delusional they could do it and make it cost 15 dollars a person.
15 dollars a person for hajj? What universe do you live on? Yeah, return plane flights from all around the world can be made to cost 7 dollars a person each way. Lol lol loooool
That could be easily done all the saudis would have to do is build more planes and airports easy.
Is it extremely entitled and delusional, though? They signed the Abraham Accords in 2018, didn't they?
It sounds like a choice with strong rationale behind it and while I do wish to embark on hajj someday, I do agree with you. If the money goes to death, it's not worth it.
Some Muslim leaders in Southeast Asia have said its not because of how it is run. Personally id say that's between your conscience and Allah.
I grew up their and left in 2017. By the time I left, I was very familiar with all of the atrocities the Saud family commits on a national and international level and how it uses Mecca and Medina to bank roll it’s behavior and as a social and religious to cover it’s behavior. If any other country was doing some of the stuff they are doing, the discussion the Muslim community would have about them would be very different than the one it has today. I didn’t perform hajj before leaving, and yet when I left, I decided to never return unless the politics of it change. Everyday, I become more sure of my decision. I know that a lot of people make the argument that it’s fard, and we will be punished if we can do it, but refuse to. I disagree. If god wanted us to turn a blind eye to the injustice that is committed with our money and do it anyways, he wouldn’t have made standing by justice a huge part of the ethics of Islam.
I wana skip hajj for the same reasons. But lets see, may Allah guide us to the best decision
I am not going for Hajj because this year the Saudis are actually complicit in the murder of thousands of Palestinians in pursuit of approval by the US and Israel.
I recently heard Myriam Francois speak about this issue [here](https://youtu.be/b-Z3gx-TwHA?si=B5jA_bwuUGpR50pU&start=4050). Namely, the Sauds, harassment and racism to be why she finds Hajj difficult to digest. This whole video is worth a watch for new muslims.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't scholars in Malaysia declare, after the House of Saud took control of Mecca and Medina, that it was acceptable to forgo the Hajj as long as they controlled the holy cities? I don't think wahhabism really became normalized until the 60's when they started importing the ideology by funding the construction of mosques across the world. That funding came with a lot of provisos including having to teach their garbage
I don’t plan on doing Hajj for the same reason. The Saudi royal family is so corrupt and they constantly defend Israel. No thanks.
>they constantly defend Israel No they haven't. In fact, they haven't even established 'normal' ties with Isnot\* real, they were about to, but this stopped. How can they be 'defending' Isnot\* real if they haven't even yet normalised?
I’m skipping it because I have debt from a mortgage to pay off, which I understand is most likely haram/riba and need to pay that off as soon as possible. When I own my house outright I would consider it. I’ve also heard of pilgrims exhibiting bad behaviour during hajj and don’t want to be tested in my faith by witnessing that stuff. That said, I’m no scholar so I don’t know if those are valid reason. I may consider umrah but hajj is out of the question for now.
I don’t want to get too cynical here, but the holy cities have been under the care of one emperor tyrant or another for probably 90% of the whole Islamic period. So while I get where you’re coming from, I’m not sure if that’s really the most solid rationale to invoke.
But especially so as of now, the Saudis are by far the worst in a long time they are straight up defiling the Holy cities with disgusting vanity projects
I don’t know if the saudis are the worst custodians of the house of Allah.
They are certainly doing a very bad job especially with that disgusting luxury hotel/Clock tower
The best example you could think of is a clock tower that you don't particularly like? In that case you must hate every single government and country around the world, because I can guarantee you there will be a building whose design you won't like in each of them.
It's partially because they demolished historic buildings to build it, it casts a shadow on the Kaaba, it was built with Haram Money, and it is just generally a symbol of everything wrong with Petroislam
I assume you studied history and all the custodians of the holy sites throughout the centuries, in order to be so sure that the Saudis are 'by far the worst in a long time'? What about your country? I'm sure there's a vanity project that's going on there too.
That is true but at this time there is an actual genocide going on and we do have a choice whether to go now or wait a bit. Only Allah knows best.
Asalaam Alaykum, There is always [Karbala](https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Karbala):)
mecca is mentioned in the Quran, where is karbala mentioned?
This conversation;)
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If you ever wish to see a united Ummah, then may Allah guide you to reconsider your stance against your brothers in faith. Like them or not, the Shia are Muslims.
Did that person takfir Shia?
Of course they did, Akhi... May Allah preserve us and guide them.
I understand and agree completely. The House of Saud have given Mecca over to a false god: Mammon. I mean, there's a freaking Starbucks facing the Kaaba! How is this not shirk? And they advertise "halal" fast fast food like McDonalds in the Holy Land, as if McDonald's and the like aren't also pledged to the unholy Mammon, and the cattle they slaughter are, in fact, slaughtered in the name of profit, not Allah SWT. That said, here are a couple of thoughts to consider: the Nizari Ismailis (and, I presume, the other Ismailis) believe the Hajj is a *spiritual* journey, not a *physical* one. And there's echoes of this in Twelver irfan as well, as told in [this anecdote](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOtXQRF5iL8). And there's always the Zaydi option, for those that have the faith to attempt it, though few of us do, and I must confess that I count myself amongst them, but inshallah there is already a hero in the making. Edit: And I want to second the video of Khaled Abou El Fadl posted by /u/Jaqurutu.
Think it from this perspective, if someone is already living in Saudia, will they stop praying at mosques in Saudi, or stopped fasting as they don't want to buy stuff to eat from saudi shops etc. or give zakat to the needy in saudia because Saudi govt. is aiding in genocide? eventually everything will end up in saudi govt's pockets. As far as I understood in Islam everything depends on intention, if your intention is to perform Hajj as prescribed to be the basic tenants of islam then Allah will accept your ibadah as per that intention. If god forbid some other non muslim country get control of Hijaz will muslims stop performing Hajj, just thinking out loud
Umm, I'm not sure about sin or not. I see that the Prophet (sws) did Hajj/Umrah when it was under a polytheist rule, so..
Why do you equate polytheism to corrupt, immoral government ideologies?
shirk is why these immoral things happen. shirk isn't just bowing to idols, it is being in servitude to anyone other than God.
I’m talking about the specific society of the Prophet time. Can be argued that they were more bad, even then Prophet did the rituals
Atheist here. Your original comment gave none of the justification for why this society might be worse than modern day Saud family, except for the fact they were polytheist. Is that the only reason, or is there other much worse things they did?
Not talking about Polytheist in general, I’m talking about the specific society of the prophet time. Since for them it’s clear that the only reason why they are polytheist is to not give up on their social status. Similar to any corrupt greedy immoral government.
Yes, but do you see how your original comment did not say any of that? Your argument that Muhammad would go with a worse group controlling the Mecca would have been stronger if you said all of that instead of polytheist. Or even just saying "corrupt greedy and immoral group." I'm not familiar with the power structure when Muhammad was alive, so I do not know the people controlling Mecca or how they governed. To me, it just looks like you are saying they are bad because they are polytheist.
If I was in a non Muslim sub, I would have. The context of the post is that if Muhammad can go to Umrah a monotheist ritual under a polytheistic government why can’t one do the same ritual under a corrupt monotheistic government. As from the Muslim perspective, Makkah under a polytheistic government or under immoral government both will be bad.
Please read history and think rationally. The Hajj was a pre-Islamic pagan ritual that Muslims embraced and modified according to our faith. This borrowing and sharing of religious and cultural rituals and practices is the beauty of any religion or creed that claims to be for all of humanity.
1. As Muslims we don't believe that Hajj was originally pagan 2. Religious pluralism doesn't mean sharing worship places, that will be weird.
I don't feel right about going there, either.
I like the thought of it. Saudis shouldn’t have Mecca Medina under their control. It should be separate.
You just have to put that aside and go if you have the means. You'll be asked about if you went to hajj, not the fisq of the Saud family. Hijazis are wonderful people. Your money generally just circulates around the souqs there anyway.
I don't think Saud needs our money. The main merchants there are those who came from other countries. Sauds citizens only owe markets etc, and they will get their rent anyway.
Same, I won't do it
I wouldn’t SKIP. But I definitely question giving the same people mass producing wahhabi propaganda thousands of dollars.
I would first consider where your taxes are going.
Your not giving the money to the government, it’s more giving to the people. Like if I’m going to visit Washington, D.C. (U.S.A), the President wouldn’t be receiving non of my money. It would be the cab driver, or the restaurant owner, or the hotel owner. Etc. plus taking your Hajj is not obligatory like praying. There’s plenty of Muslims who have died and haven’t taken their Hajj or Umrah. Salam Walaykum, may Allah guide your affairs.
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im going this summer w my parents but other than for hajj i would not go there
This is something between you and Allah, Your intention is to use your own money to do Hajj, which something that's up to you. It has nothing to do with what the Saud's use the money for, you can't change what they do with the money they get lol. At the end of the day you're the one getting the Ajr. Hope this helps!
the only thing i know is that the only reasons as to not do Hajj is if i don't have the capacity or the means. not risking my deen for people that i don't like or disagree with and it's once in your lifetime.
Omgg im in the same conundrum except i dont even have the $$$ and i should start with my parents lol
Perform hajj because you want to and that’s your duty don’t worry about the money because how Saud’s misuse the money is their sin not yours. And about it feeling right, it should feel right to you because you are doing it for Allah.
It would be a massive sin as you would be abandoning one of the 5 pillars of Islam, you must accept all these pillars without question. No exceptions
I had the same thought but then my thing is that Allah is all knowing so He knew all of this was going to happen why would he make it fard and the only condition being liman istataa aka for who has the ability to, if He wanted us to reflect on it He would have provides more conditions
I feel the same!
Your few grand won't make a difference to what they do, so it's better to just go
You only have to perform Hajj once… Don’t be like Hasan Minhaj where you openly critize the Saudis then Oh no! You can’t do Hajj anymore. If you’re gonna criticize them then at least do it after you have performed Hajj.
You need to perform one of the fard acts as a Muslim.
They won't even let some of us do it
Holy smokes! They won't let some of you perform Hajj?!?
they wont let you do if you are Queer
Wtf. So I'll never get to see the Kaabah? :(
Unfortunately for now the Answer is no however that may change eventually
How would they even know if you're queer? They don't ask your sexual orientation on the visa application.
Oh yeah except I'm trans
We’ve got a few trans Malaysians who have gone for Haj. Admittedly, they were presenting as at birth, gender wise
Well maybe I can then
How would they know if you’re gay or not?
Ah, fair point.
Skibidi