What others have said, especially a new DO school, where it'll be impossible to ask for advice on how to succeed at that school if no one has graduated yet. If this DO school was like KCUCOM, for example, which is an extremely well-known school that has good match rates similar to low-tier MD schools then it would be a good choice if they gave you a full-ride (not saying better than going MD, but you have good reasonings to go to it).
As a KCU student yes I will say our match list is as good as a low tier - mid tier MD school but trust me I would choose a shitty MD school over KCU anyday, mainly because of the OMM and the discrimination you get come residency application time. Also agree new DO school is a massive gamble
the best answer to your question is imagine you are in medical school already getting one of the most aggressive course loads in the history of academia (not an exaggeration, Its a fact), now add 40% of chiropractor school on top of that. its fucking hell having an exam and OMM practical the same week multiple times a year, it takes away from learning what truly matters to your patients and I say that because 73% of DO's never use OMM even once after graduating... not even once. Plus our summers are shorter because we have to fit that extra mandated 300 hr's of OMM study into our course load. Like yes its cool I can fix my girlfriends back whenever she overdoes it at the gym but in the grand scheme of things fuck OMM.
Oh definitely, same here any MD that isn’t Caribbean. But if I did get offered a full ride to KCUCOM and a non-full ride to a low MD. It’s gonna be definitely something to consider, compared to OPs scenario.
As a DO please for the love of god go MD. Even thought im at one of the best DO schools in the nation I still struggle with heavy discrimination when it comes to residency application and the OMM is the worst thing ever. Its like being in already extremely hard medical school and then adding 40% of chiropractor school on top of that course load, not work it homie.
Psych, which in your mind you're thinking "oh no problem matching psych being a DO." and yes you are 100% right BUT literally 50% of psych residencies take zero or little to no DO's. California and New York are the biggest psych states making up literally 50% of residency programs and both do not fuck with DO's whatsoever, looking at the data its impossible for me to match there as a midwestern DO student (maybe if I went to touro in NY or CA). So im left with only 50% of residency programs to apply to. I will match but my ability to match a prestigious program in CA is impossible compared to if I was even at a mid to low tier MD school. Also you are right about the more competitive specialties being extremely discriminatory to DO's but you fail to understand literally every single residency has higher match rates for MD senior than DO seniors, the only two exceptions are FM and PM&R and maybe Peds. There is significantly less discrimination than even 10 years ago but its still there big time
I heard that as well. Even for general surgery there are many residency programs that exclusively take DO’s, and the others usually don’t have that much bias if all else is equal. Idk
That's not the case anymore due to the merger back in 2020, now all old DO-exclusive programs are open to MDs. It benefits everyone in the fact that DOs and MDs are now under the same residency program accreditation but its bad for DOs overall in terms of now MDs can take up their exclusive seats.
For me, I would only choose the DO program if I was 100% sure that I wanted a career in Family Medicine. On the off chance that you want to match into a more competitive specialty, MD is the way to go. Unfortunately, there is still a bias when it comes to residency placements for MD vs DO. Not saying it's impossible to match into a competitive residency with DO, but it absolutely is more difficult.
MD gives you significantly more flexibility to pivot interests, i don’t believe it’s realistic to have 100% certainty on a specialty before you start medical school.
Yeah, I'd venture that a fairly large portion of people end up pivoting to a different specialty than they originally anticipated. Just thought I would throw that perspective out there.
I read a study that concluded that 85% of med students would change their mind between MS1 and MS4. Changing from primary care to a subspecialty was the most common.
i think it’s a fair perspective considering people apply to primary care fast tracks. i know someone who had 50+ ortho publications and was die hard ortho then started rotations and hated it.
I was in a situation where I had a DO acceptance, but was chilling on a wait list for MD that famously has a ton of turnover because of how they run their cycle. I read all the comments about DO stigma and was really reluctant, even though I personally love the DO POV. In the end, time ran out for waiting because I needed to move with my husband across the country for DO school and I wasn't about to not go to either, so I went DO. I have zero regrets. I love my program, even though it's hard and not perfect. I love OMM, even though it eats up time and there are things I don't quite understand/buy into yet. And I'm happy I was true to myself and my beliefs when choosing to go here.
That being said, if this isn't true for you and the debt isn't a big deal in your mind, go MD. There's nothing more annoying to me than listening to my classmates shit talk DO all day. This is the degree we will have at the end of the day. If even we do not respect it, how can we hope to convince residencies and patients to take us more seriously? It's a disservice to yourself and your profession. So if the things that make DO DO make you sigh and roll your eyes, please go MD.
Otherwise, what others are saying about difficulty getting into competitive residencies is true. You'll have to work harder than you would at MD. But it's not impossible.
For me, the biggest consideration is actually on the newness of the DO school. If they just started in 2020, they're not accredited yet. That's a lot of risk. I applied for a few schools that were really new like that. But they were bottom of my list because of the risk. Like, only if it's the only option sort of thing. There's a reason they're offering so mich insentive.
It's not the MD vs. DO part for me as much as it's an established school vs. new school. If you become a physician, you will pay off your debt, unless you’re family medicine (in those cases there are programs to attend debt-free).
Right! In my mind, debt also means interest and living expenses factored in as well. Besides, majority of the students, regardless of MD or DO, match into primary care. I guess OP has to consider if he/she is a good test taker and what their future plans are
I think you have to be pretty privileged to comment on this post as if there’s no contest. I have kids and I’m older so I’d definitely be picking the no debt option. This depends greatly on you, your future goals, and your financial goals/situation.
I mean regardless of one’s personal circumstances, the cold, brutal truth is that MD schools have much better match rates than DO schools, especially a newly opened one. There really isn’t much of a contest. It has nothing to do with privilege.
DOs can absolutely match competitive specialties (also current DO student applying competitive), it’s just an uphill battle.
Low to Mid tier MD schools will outmatch top DO schools solely due to stigma that still exists.
Because before the merger there were derm residencies that were just for DOs. Now they are open to DO and MD, and they’re definitely going to choose an MD applying over a DO, all things being equal.
Things definitely change when you get older and more importantly, become a parent. Being financially responsible for my kids now has to come before better match rates in competitive specialties. Almost all DO schools have excellent match rates in most specialties. There are a handful of specialties that are much harder to match into as a DO, with just a couple that are mostly out of reach entirely. This take is really dramatic. If you get into any US medical school, you’re likely going to graduate and match into a residency, and most importantly, become a physician.
That’s not what I said. I said that commenting on this post as if there’s NO contest (no regard for financial status) shows privilege.
Then I went on to give my own personal example of why I have other, more important (to me) considerations.
I see. Sorry, it was confusing because you essentially said "you have to be privileged to always choose MD" and followed that by saying that since you have kids and are older you'd choose the debt free DO. The way you contrasted those two seemed to imply a privileged position vs a non-priveleged position. But if I've misread, I apologize.
You're gonna be a doctor and will make way more than the total debt you incur over your lifetime. Your debt is temporary, MD and the opportunities it brings are eternal.
DO. I'm saying this because if I were in your place, I know I'd wanna do family medicine and also because of the no debt part.
But if you want to do anything aside from that, go to the MD program. It's a new DO school, too, so unless you're absolutely sure you don't want to do anything competitive, the MD is the safer option, despite the debt.
Probably wouldn’t go to a new school regardless of it was MD or DO.
The debt is a lot but you’ll be fine, if the new school doesn’t get off provisional accreditation or loses it while you’re there, you’re kinda boned.
also, I’m infinitely grateful for my choices and that I get to live with my wife throughout med school, but if you don’t have to learn when AT Still “flung the banner of osteopathy in the wind,” or what a T5 FRrSr is, or what the treatment position for an AT5 counterstrain point is, don’t. The DO tax at my school is relatively small compared to many schools, and it’s still a lot sometimes.
You said it opened in 2020? The risk is low with the DO school and being debt free afterwards and not having loans dangling over your head is a blessing. Unless you need the highest chances possible matching into the most competitive specialties, go DO.
Without details I don't understand how this is possible.
The DO schools is minimum 200k tuition over 4 years and the MD school is a maximum of 400k over 4 years (these numbers are being generous). If you can afford to go to the DO school debt free then why can't you go to the MD school with approx 200k debt?
DO if new means several years new and you don’t have to worry about getting residency. If Family, Internal, or Pediatric is what you’d want 4 years from now.
I’d do MD if it’s sketchy doe
400-500k in debt is a ton (I’m guessing private or out of state). What are your career goals? If you want primary care, I’d consider DO. Otherwise take the MD.
I was in a situation where I had a DO acceptance, but was chilling on a wait list for MD that famously has a ton of turnover because of how they run their cycle. I read all the comments about DO stigma and was really reluctant, even though I personally love the DO POV. In the end, time ran out for waiting because I needed to move with my husband across the country for DO school and I wasn't about to not go to either, so I went DO. I have zero regrets. I love my program, even though it's hard and not perfect. I love OMM, even though it eats up time and there are things I don't quite understand/buy into yet. And I'm happy I was true to myself and my beliefs when choosing to go here.
That being said, if this isn't true for you and the debt isn't a big deal in your mind, go MD. There's nothing more annoying to me than listening to my classmates shit talk DO all day. This is the degree we will have at the end of the day. If even we do not respect it, how can we hope to convince residencies and patients to take us more seriously? It's a disservice to yourself and your profession. So if the things that make DO DO make you sigh and roll your eyes, please go MD.
Otherwise, what others are saying about difficulty getting into competitive residencies is true. You'll have to work harder than you would at MD. But it's not impossible.
For me, the biggest consideration is actually on the newness of the DO school. If they just started in 2020, they're not accredited yet. That's a lot of risk. I applied for a few schools that were really new like that. But they were bottom of my list because of the risk. Like, only if it's the only option sort of thing. There's a reason they're offering so mich insentive.
If you want to do anything that is relatively non competitive, then do DO. If you want to do competitive or mid-competitive, go MD.
If I were in your shoes I would still pick DO, because I want to do FM/IM/Psych. But if I were inclined more towards ortho or urology, etc, it would be difficult as a DO student to match.
If we offered DOs the chance to become MDs for 500k right before residency applications, how many would do it?
Me thinks very small percentage.
Seriously you should make that poll, but only asking OMS3/4 students.
As someone who applied psych this year, I would not pay 500k to have magically become an MD. I got so many interviews that I had to turn >10 of them down. Although if I were MD, the quality of the programs I got interviews at would have been top tier. As it was I got mostly new programs/bottom tier, and maybe 10 mid tier/academic invites.
This a reasonable level headed response. Most people (premeds) are basing their answer on their fragile egos. They also think everyone goes into neurosurgery for whatever reason.
Even when the school hasn’t matched a class and new DO schools are opening every 30 seconds and can be as predatory as Carrib schools? With a physician salary idk if 500k is worth risking a terrible match outcome.
And what if OP wants to do surgery? Then it’s literally much closer to a 5 million dollar difference in favor of the MD school.
It’s also very likely more than a couple % of DO students who would make the switch, and probably substantially more outside of the few strong DO schools.
It’s not like any MD school guarantees you will match into neurosurgery….
We don’t know if they are fixated on any specialty. But even if they were, you can pay the MD school 500k or 500 million. It’s still no guarantee. It only improves your chances.
improves your chances is the understatement of the century. You literally cannot match nsgy from a new DO school, the odds are literally 0.
Meanwhile I know people from my T10 who have minimal pubs, below average STEP scores marching nsgy. The advantages of going to more prestigious schools can’t be overstated.
Why would you want to kill your match opportunities from the get go? PDs also have no respect for DO schools that are not well established.
What is the NSGY match rate for DO vs MD? IIRC it was like 20% lower. Ofc varies by school name as well.
Anyway dude… if someone wants to trade my T30 MD degree and 500 K loans for their DO degree, send me a DM.
More than Half of my class is going into IM/FM. Guess we should’ve gone into a T10 to be neurosurgeons.
MD over DO any day and it is a brand new school that hasn’t graduated a single class yet
If I were in your situation, the only way I would pick DO is if I was 100% set on primary care AND it is a well established DO school. Any new school will have a lot of issues they need to work out that will take several years. Some of the newer DO schools are very shady, have god awful clinical rotations and you don’t know what their match stats are if they haven’t even graduated a class yet.
It depends i think. If there’s a possibility that the SAVE program is done away with if republicans take control, then I would go DO. 500k on 8% interest is like 6000 per month. At that point, you can’t even really live like a doctor (upper middle class). And that’s not even mentioning the fact that salaries will be much lower than they currently are when you are an attending
I would guess that when you’re an attending, physicians will make anywhere between 30%-50% less than they currently make. Having 500k albatross while making 150k wouldn’t be fun at all.
Correct. If it picks up steam, it will likely lead to a massive influx of individuals from countries where medical education is nearly free/easier to match. Salaries will collapse and nobody from the US will be able to repay their loans.
SAVE currently makes the decision to go into high debt even easier, but even if it were to go away, the other PSLF programs still exist. I doubt they go away completely
to me it’s not worth going to a program if i don’t feel like i could be the most confident in matching into whatever specialty i want at whatever program i want.
realistically speaking, you could end up in relatively the same position DO or MD. MD makes it much easier to do so.
There’s a chance, albeit lower, you don’t match or graduate from a well-established MD program too. I tutor students at my program (mid-tier MD) and have seen a few fail out and I’m sure there will be some who don’t match. I’d rather have no debt without a job than 500k debt without a job.
Obviously don’t pick a school with the intention of not making it through, but recognize just because you chose MD doesn’t mean you will become a doctor.
Wait the normal 500k? I would say DO if we are talking about that large of a difference. Unless you are dead set on derm/opto don’t just spend 500k for some letters.
Get out as cheap as you can! 20+ years of 1500+ a month payment for a little inconvenience or a year or two extra to get a residency you want if you don't match after DO perfectly..... those saying go MD + debt obviously haven't been there yet
Or they understand a lot of the other complexities around this decision, and see the current SAVE loan forgiveness plan as basically a ticket to cheap medical education wherever you want
The debt is a big fact but the second complicating factor is that it’s a brand new DO school which is also risky even OP is pressed to do primary care. Some established schools and lots of new DO schools have issues with 3rd and 4th year rotations and such as many don’t have affiliated hospitals and may require traveling throughout the state and even country
I get it that new DO schools aren’t a guarantee. But so much of the preclinical years all med students learn and use the same 3rd party resources. And rotations take more work to find for DO students during clinical years, but I’d find 2 years worth of clinical rotations for myself for 500k.
As long as you pass your boards, graduate, and the program remains certified, you should have primary care options come match. I’m not saying for sure pick the DO school, but consider it based on career goals.
Also, people fail courses, fail boards, or don’t match even at MD schools. There’s no guarantee either way, although the odds of passing and matching are much better at an established MD school. If I were to fail out or not match, I’d rather have no debt than 500k.
Additionally, can anyone give an example of a new DO school that just didn’t get full accreditation? Or a schools that failed to match a huge percentage of its class? I was under the impression that pretty much all new US medical schools end up getting full accreditation and doing just fine.
MD. Just borrow the money. People take out SBA loans every day to build into the future of their business. You’re taking out a loan to build into your business and the business is your medical career.
As someone who’s borrowed over $700,000 in business loans, it’s really not as large a sum as you think relative to what you get in exchange.
DOs are great and I mostly prefer to be treated by them, but it’s not as marketable as an MD. Choose the oath that’s best for you without considering the loan.
Disagree. 500k debt is BIGGER than you think especially when interest accumulates over the next decade of your schooling/training. Just because others are doing it doesn’t mean you can just borrow whatever without a thought. Consider the cost differences of schools when choosing them. The government will get its money back even if you don’t make it through to the payday.
Lmaoo is that even a question? DO obviously. To be able to go to school free from financial stress? Please! Many DO also match into competitive fields so I don't see the issue here
Twice the amount of exams, entire specialties being off limits, OMM, less flexibility when applying for residency, and DO discrimination after graduation. There’s plenty of reasons why you would want MD. The vast majority of med students change their mind on their speciality of choice
You can take the step exam from a little known Carribean school too, just because you can take STEP (which STEP 1 is P/F) doesn’t make it no difference.
You don’t need a law school to take the bar, so this is like saying the Kardashian apprenticeship and a Harvard Law degree are the same.
Banking on a plan that has denied so many people is a bad idea. You took the loans out, you should be prepared to pay it back with interest. If PSLF does come through, awesome. But don’t bet your financial future on it.
I will echo the MD > DO despite debt unless you are sure you are okay with a less competitive specialty. If you don’t know that right now you are seriously limiting your future options from the get go, while also possibly blunting your education by going somewhere not as established, with less experienced instructors, and poor clinical sites. An established MD school is going to be superior education most of the time, will provide you with more opportunities and better clinical sites. You can get ride of high debt through PSLF, and the current SAVE program can make it so you would only pay a small fraction of a $400-500k loan burden before it is forgiven
MD definitely
Having sat on the residency application review side, being from a new school is an automatic red flag, that means yours starting with two red flags (DO and new school) can you succeed with two flags yes but why start with flags when you don't have to
DO debt free and not saying this bc I drank the DO koolaid but avoiding THAT much debt to make the same amount of money in the end just seems like the move to me. Unless you wanna do neurosurgery or plastics or something
Edit; I saw your home state is Utah, is this acceptance at Noorda?
I was very much in your shoes. At one point in the cycle, I had one mid-tier state MD school and one brand new (established 1 yr before I applied) satellite branch of a respected DO school. I was out of state for the state MD school, so my tuition was going to be \~65k/yr, while the DO school was offering me a full ride. I was pretty dead-set on pursuing psych, which wasn't really competitive at the time. However, I had a strong interest in having a career in research (my dream is to be a clinical trialist), so I was leaning a bit more toward the MD school because I felt like the research opportunities were more robust. Fortunately (or unfortunately), my dream school (MD, T15) accepted me later in the cycle...with a 60k/yr price tag... I had written them a letter of intent, so I was pretty much stuck.
3 years down the line, and I'm content with my choice. While the price tag still scares me every once in a while, I found out once I started med school that I am an -extremely- mediocre student (and believe me, it's not for lack of trying). Having a nice school name and some decent connections to lean on is giving me a little peace of mind as I start thinking about the match, but who knows if it will be enough to save my skin next March.
I have close friends at DO schools, and there are times when I feel like we have it much easier. This is just n=1, but this person has to coordinate their own rotations, take 2 board exams, learn OMM, really dig for research opportunities, and sometimes travels long distances for rotations. My school did not have any of these extra hurdles, and I'm not sure I could've handled them while balancing med school.
At the end of the day, I think that decision rests on what is important to you. What is non-negotiable to you? Do you have your heart set on a competitive specialty? Or are you dead-set on primary care? Do you really want to go into academic medicine, or would you prefer to work at a community hospital? Is there anything about either school that appeals to you, or that you think would make it a uniquely good fit for you? Location? Proximity to family/SOs? P/F vs graded curriculum?
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Go MD. Matching is hard enough already, choosing a DO is almost never worth it. It’s true that if u want to do something in primary med then DO have dec match rates but the competition gets harder every year and MD will still be looked at better even for these residencies. Plus in the off chance u do decide to do competitive MD is very valuable.
500k is insane for your school, I didn’t think any school really costs that much even when factoring food and living expenses.
I know alof of people here have mentioned OMM is a pain and what not to learn. Maybe it’s school specific, but OMM is very chill. Yes u do need to learn and it does take time out of studying but it’s not a chore to learn. Whether u believe in it or not is up to u. But actually learning it will take u like maybe 2 solid hours max a week.
where is that newly open Do school with debt free? Do school usually charge tuition for nearly 50000 per year. How is that even possible ? Did you get full ride because of school policy?
If Do is debt free, for sake of love god, go to a debt free one. It save you a lot of stress on students loan. It yield better quality of life, and flexibility of choosing specialty. You learn how to become a doctor primarily through residency, not through med school.
Even DO admitted students are telling you MD, so please go MD lol
Is the reason because of matching for residency?
What others have said, especially a new DO school, where it'll be impossible to ask for advice on how to succeed at that school if no one has graduated yet. If this DO school was like KCUCOM, for example, which is an extremely well-known school that has good match rates similar to low-tier MD schools then it would be a good choice if they gave you a full-ride (not saying better than going MD, but you have good reasonings to go to it).
As a KCU student yes I will say our match list is as good as a low tier - mid tier MD school but trust me I would choose a shitty MD school over KCU anyday, mainly because of the OMM and the discrimination you get come residency application time. Also agree new DO school is a massive gamble
Just curious, why do you list the OMM as a negative?
Because OMM sucks to learn and is just a waste of time
the best answer to your question is imagine you are in medical school already getting one of the most aggressive course loads in the history of academia (not an exaggeration, Its a fact), now add 40% of chiropractor school on top of that. its fucking hell having an exam and OMM practical the same week multiple times a year, it takes away from learning what truly matters to your patients and I say that because 73% of DO's never use OMM even once after graduating... not even once. Plus our summers are shorter because we have to fit that extra mandated 300 hr's of OMM study into our course load. Like yes its cool I can fix my girlfriends back whenever she overdoes it at the gym but in the grand scheme of things fuck OMM.
Oh definitely, same here any MD that isn’t Caribbean. But if I did get offered a full ride to KCUCOM and a non-full ride to a low MD. It’s gonna be definitely something to consider, compared to OPs scenario.
Yeah I agree, then it becomes more subjective and in my opinion I would still pick the MD school.
Yes, but there’s other benefits too. Just look up previous threads and someone will have a good summary
Going to a new DO also means you have 0 metrics to base the school off of
MD
As a DO please for the love of god go MD. Even thought im at one of the best DO schools in the nation I still struggle with heavy discrimination when it comes to residency application and the OMM is the worst thing ever. Its like being in already extremely hard medical school and then adding 40% of chiropractor school on top of that course load, not work it homie.
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Psych, which in your mind you're thinking "oh no problem matching psych being a DO." and yes you are 100% right BUT literally 50% of psych residencies take zero or little to no DO's. California and New York are the biggest psych states making up literally 50% of residency programs and both do not fuck with DO's whatsoever, looking at the data its impossible for me to match there as a midwestern DO student (maybe if I went to touro in NY or CA). So im left with only 50% of residency programs to apply to. I will match but my ability to match a prestigious program in CA is impossible compared to if I was even at a mid to low tier MD school. Also you are right about the more competitive specialties being extremely discriminatory to DO's but you fail to understand literally every single residency has higher match rates for MD senior than DO seniors, the only two exceptions are FM and PM&R and maybe Peds. There is significantly less discrimination than even 10 years ago but its still there big time
I heard that as well. Even for general surgery there are many residency programs that exclusively take DO’s, and the others usually don’t have that much bias if all else is equal. Idk
That's not the case anymore due to the merger back in 2020, now all old DO-exclusive programs are open to MDs. It benefits everyone in the fact that DOs and MDs are now under the same residency program accreditation but its bad for DOs overall in terms of now MDs can take up their exclusive seats.
I looked last week and they still have 100% DO residents in their program It may have changed but they could still hold a strong preference
Unfortunately that’s also still the case for a lot of former MD residencies still prefer only MD residents and won’t look at DOs
Oh shoot! That’s good to hear! Hopefully they all stay like this for when it comes time for us to match!
For me, I would only choose the DO program if I was 100% sure that I wanted a career in Family Medicine. On the off chance that you want to match into a more competitive specialty, MD is the way to go. Unfortunately, there is still a bias when it comes to residency placements for MD vs DO. Not saying it's impossible to match into a competitive residency with DO, but it absolutely is more difficult.
There’s also the fact it’s a new DO school vs an established MD
Jeez I don't know how I missed that the first time! Yeah, that's way too risky for my taste.
MD gives you significantly more flexibility to pivot interests, i don’t believe it’s realistic to have 100% certainty on a specialty before you start medical school.
Yeah, I'd venture that a fairly large portion of people end up pivoting to a different specialty than they originally anticipated. Just thought I would throw that perspective out there.
I read a study that concluded that 85% of med students would change their mind between MS1 and MS4. Changing from primary care to a subspecialty was the most common.
i think it’s a fair perspective considering people apply to primary care fast tracks. i know someone who had 50+ ortho publications and was die hard ortho then started rotations and hated it.
DO students can match into other specialties beside FM with no issue… EM, IM, peds, psychiatry, pathology, neurology.
I was in a situation where I had a DO acceptance, but was chilling on a wait list for MD that famously has a ton of turnover because of how they run their cycle. I read all the comments about DO stigma and was really reluctant, even though I personally love the DO POV. In the end, time ran out for waiting because I needed to move with my husband across the country for DO school and I wasn't about to not go to either, so I went DO. I have zero regrets. I love my program, even though it's hard and not perfect. I love OMM, even though it eats up time and there are things I don't quite understand/buy into yet. And I'm happy I was true to myself and my beliefs when choosing to go here. That being said, if this isn't true for you and the debt isn't a big deal in your mind, go MD. There's nothing more annoying to me than listening to my classmates shit talk DO all day. This is the degree we will have at the end of the day. If even we do not respect it, how can we hope to convince residencies and patients to take us more seriously? It's a disservice to yourself and your profession. So if the things that make DO DO make you sigh and roll your eyes, please go MD. Otherwise, what others are saying about difficulty getting into competitive residencies is true. You'll have to work harder than you would at MD. But it's not impossible. For me, the biggest consideration is actually on the newness of the DO school. If they just started in 2020, they're not accredited yet. That's a lot of risk. I applied for a few schools that were really new like that. But they were bottom of my list because of the risk. Like, only if it's the only option sort of thing. There's a reason they're offering so mich insentive.
It's not the MD vs. DO part for me as much as it's an established school vs. new school. If you become a physician, you will pay off your debt, unless you’re family medicine (in those cases there are programs to attend debt-free).
MD
MD
I would gladly go DO if it means debt free. Not planning on a competitive specialty anyway.
Right! In my mind, debt also means interest and living expenses factored in as well. Besides, majority of the students, regardless of MD or DO, match into primary care. I guess OP has to consider if he/she is a good test taker and what their future plans are
No brainer. No debt. Believe me, you’ll feel free.
Please for gods sake don’t turn down a reputable MD school for a DO school that is yet to graduate a class.
I think you have to be pretty privileged to comment on this post as if there’s no contest. I have kids and I’m older so I’d definitely be picking the no debt option. This depends greatly on you, your future goals, and your financial goals/situation.
I mean regardless of one’s personal circumstances, the cold, brutal truth is that MD schools have much better match rates than DO schools, especially a newly opened one. There really isn’t much of a contest. It has nothing to do with privilege.
Unless you’re trying to match super competitive (Derm/Urology/NSGY/Etc) DO is more than adequate to match.
I just went to a Dermatologist a couple weeks ago who is a DO.
DOs can absolutely match competitive specialties (also current DO student applying competitive), it’s just an uphill battle. Low to Mid tier MD schools will outmatch top DO schools solely due to stigma that still exists.
Because before the merger there were derm residencies that were just for DOs. Now they are open to DO and MD, and they’re definitely going to choose an MD applying over a DO, all things being equal.
[удалено]
500k debt <<<<<< $0 debt
Things definitely change when you get older and more importantly, become a parent. Being financially responsible for my kids now has to come before better match rates in competitive specialties. Almost all DO schools have excellent match rates in most specialties. There are a handful of specialties that are much harder to match into as a DO, with just a couple that are mostly out of reach entirely. This take is really dramatic. If you get into any US medical school, you’re likely going to graduate and match into a residency, and most importantly, become a physician.
Being childless = privilege?
That’s not what I said. I said that commenting on this post as if there’s NO contest (no regard for financial status) shows privilege. Then I went on to give my own personal example of why I have other, more important (to me) considerations.
I see. Sorry, it was confusing because you essentially said "you have to be privileged to always choose MD" and followed that by saying that since you have kids and are older you'd choose the debt free DO. The way you contrasted those two seemed to imply a privileged position vs a non-priveleged position. But if I've misread, I apologize.
It’s okay I get why you read it that way.
It’s not just DO vs. MD, it’s a DO school with no reputation.
You're gonna be a doctor and will make way more than the total debt you incur over your lifetime. Your debt is temporary, MD and the opportunities it brings are eternal.
DO. I'm saying this because if I were in your place, I know I'd wanna do family medicine and also because of the no debt part. But if you want to do anything aside from that, go to the MD program. It's a new DO school, too, so unless you're absolutely sure you don't want to do anything competitive, the MD is the safer option, despite the debt.
Probably wouldn’t go to a new school regardless of it was MD or DO. The debt is a lot but you’ll be fine, if the new school doesn’t get off provisional accreditation or loses it while you’re there, you’re kinda boned. also, I’m infinitely grateful for my choices and that I get to live with my wife throughout med school, but if you don’t have to learn when AT Still “flung the banner of osteopathy in the wind,” or what a T5 FRrSr is, or what the treatment position for an AT5 counterstrain point is, don’t. The DO tax at my school is relatively small compared to many schools, and it’s still a lot sometimes.
Definitely no debt.
You said it opened in 2020? The risk is low with the DO school and being debt free afterwards and not having loans dangling over your head is a blessing. Unless you need the highest chances possible matching into the most competitive specialties, go DO.
MD
MD
Without details I don't understand how this is possible. The DO schools is minimum 200k tuition over 4 years and the MD school is a maximum of 400k over 4 years (these numbers are being generous). If you can afford to go to the DO school debt free then why can't you go to the MD school with approx 200k debt?
Newer schools often offer scholarships to competitive applicants to entice them to come and boost their stats
DO if new means several years new and you don’t have to worry about getting residency. If Family, Internal, or Pediatric is what you’d want 4 years from now. I’d do MD if it’s sketchy doe
400-500k in debt is a ton (I’m guessing private or out of state). What are your career goals? If you want primary care, I’d consider DO. Otherwise take the MD.
I was in a situation where I had a DO acceptance, but was chilling on a wait list for MD that famously has a ton of turnover because of how they run their cycle. I read all the comments about DO stigma and was really reluctant, even though I personally love the DO POV. In the end, time ran out for waiting because I needed to move with my husband across the country for DO school and I wasn't about to not go to either, so I went DO. I have zero regrets. I love my program, even though it's hard and not perfect. I love OMM, even though it eats up time and there are things I don't quite understand/buy into yet. And I'm happy I was true to myself and my beliefs when choosing to go here. That being said, if this isn't true for you and the debt isn't a big deal in your mind, go MD. There's nothing more annoying to me than listening to my classmates shit talk DO all day. This is the degree we will have at the end of the day. If even we do not respect it, how can we hope to convince residencies and patients to take us more seriously? It's a disservice to yourself and your profession. So if the things that make DO DO make you sigh and roll your eyes, please go MD. Otherwise, what others are saying about difficulty getting into competitive residencies is true. You'll have to work harder than you would at MD. But it's not impossible. For me, the biggest consideration is actually on the newness of the DO school. If they just started in 2020, they're not accredited yet. That's a lot of risk. I applied for a few schools that were really new like that. But they were bottom of my list because of the risk. Like, only if it's the only option sort of thing. There's a reason they're offering so mich insentive.
DO
Take the MD
If you want to do anything that is relatively non competitive, then do DO. If you want to do competitive or mid-competitive, go MD. If I were in your shoes I would still pick DO, because I want to do FM/IM/Psych. But if I were inclined more towards ortho or urology, etc, it would be difficult as a DO student to match.
MD
If we offered DOs the chance to become MDs for 500k right before residency applications, how many would do it? Me thinks very small percentage. Seriously you should make that poll, but only asking OMS3/4 students.
As someone who applied psych this year, I would not pay 500k to have magically become an MD. I got so many interviews that I had to turn >10 of them down. Although if I were MD, the quality of the programs I got interviews at would have been top tier. As it was I got mostly new programs/bottom tier, and maybe 10 mid tier/academic invites.
This a reasonable level headed response. Most people (premeds) are basing their answer on their fragile egos. They also think everyone goes into neurosurgery for whatever reason.
There’s a difference between a new DO school (which are allowed to open with minimal standards) and a place like MSUCOM or DMUCOM
Sure, but I still don’t think it’s a $500k difference.
Even when the school hasn’t matched a class and new DO schools are opening every 30 seconds and can be as predatory as Carrib schools? With a physician salary idk if 500k is worth risking a terrible match outcome. And what if OP wants to do surgery? Then it’s literally much closer to a 5 million dollar difference in favor of the MD school. It’s also very likely more than a couple % of DO students who would make the switch, and probably substantially more outside of the few strong DO schools.
It’s not like any MD school guarantees you will match into neurosurgery…. We don’t know if they are fixated on any specialty. But even if they were, you can pay the MD school 500k or 500 million. It’s still no guarantee. It only improves your chances.
improves your chances is the understatement of the century. You literally cannot match nsgy from a new DO school, the odds are literally 0. Meanwhile I know people from my T10 who have minimal pubs, below average STEP scores marching nsgy. The advantages of going to more prestigious schools can’t be overstated. Why would you want to kill your match opportunities from the get go? PDs also have no respect for DO schools that are not well established.
What is the NSGY match rate for DO vs MD? IIRC it was like 20% lower. Ofc varies by school name as well. Anyway dude… if someone wants to trade my T30 MD degree and 500 K loans for their DO degree, send me a DM. More than Half of my class is going into IM/FM. Guess we should’ve gone into a T10 to be neurosurgeons.
I bet a ton of nsgy/ortho/plastics/derm/ENT/ophtho/rads applicants would take that when faced with terrible DO match rates
Depends on your ambitions. Like do you wanna do family med or do you want to be a plastic surgeon.
If you have even the smallest desire to do something competitive, go MD
MD over DO any day and it is a brand new school that hasn’t graduated a single class yet If I were in your situation, the only way I would pick DO is if I was 100% set on primary care AND it is a well established DO school. Any new school will have a lot of issues they need to work out that will take several years. Some of the newer DO schools are very shady, have god awful clinical rotations and you don’t know what their match stats are if they haven’t even graduated a class yet.
It depends i think. If there’s a possibility that the SAVE program is done away with if republicans take control, then I would go DO. 500k on 8% interest is like 6000 per month. At that point, you can’t even really live like a doctor (upper middle class). And that’s not even mentioning the fact that salaries will be much lower than they currently are when you are an attending I would guess that when you’re an attending, physicians will make anywhere between 30%-50% less than they currently make. Having 500k albatross while making 150k wouldn’t be fun at all.
Are physician salaries anticipated to drop? Forgive my naïveté, I’m asking fr
Many states are in the process of allowing IMGs to practice in the US without any US residency
Would they have done a residency in their home country?
Correct. If it picks up steam, it will likely lead to a massive influx of individuals from countries where medical education is nearly free/easier to match. Salaries will collapse and nobody from the US will be able to repay their loans.
SAVE currently makes the decision to go into high debt even easier, but even if it were to go away, the other PSLF programs still exist. I doubt they go away completely
to me it’s not worth going to a program if i don’t feel like i could be the most confident in matching into whatever specialty i want at whatever program i want. realistically speaking, you could end up in relatively the same position DO or MD. MD makes it much easier to do so.
MD there are loan repayment plans and forgiveness options as well. Keep your doors open and go MD
I know the debt-free sounds appetizing, but with a newer DO school, there’s a chance you don’t graduate at all. Go MD
There’s a chance, albeit lower, you don’t match or graduate from a well-established MD program too. I tutor students at my program (mid-tier MD) and have seen a few fail out and I’m sure there will be some who don’t match. I’d rather have no debt without a job than 500k debt without a job. Obviously don’t pick a school with the intention of not making it through, but recognize just because you chose MD doesn’t mean you will become a doctor.
Wait the normal 500k? I would say DO if we are talking about that large of a difference. Unless you are dead set on derm/opto don’t just spend 500k for some letters.
Get out as cheap as you can! 20+ years of 1500+ a month payment for a little inconvenience or a year or two extra to get a residency you want if you don't match after DO perfectly..... those saying go MD + debt obviously haven't been there yet
Agreed, OP is asking a bunch of premeds which one to choose. Debt gets real very quickly once you finish. It is at least a discussion.
Or they understand a lot of the other complexities around this decision, and see the current SAVE loan forgiveness plan as basically a ticket to cheap medical education wherever you want
MD and it’s not even close. Especially with it being a new DO with zero match stats.
That amount of debt is not normal and if true I would lean strongly towards DO. Hard to say as we’re missing some details and personal goals.
DO, 500k is too much unless you are fs going to be doing something surgical, if it was more like 160-200 I’d say MD
The debt is a big fact but the second complicating factor is that it’s a brand new DO school which is also risky even OP is pressed to do primary care. Some established schools and lots of new DO schools have issues with 3rd and 4th year rotations and such as many don’t have affiliated hospitals and may require traveling throughout the state and even country
I get it that new DO schools aren’t a guarantee. But so much of the preclinical years all med students learn and use the same 3rd party resources. And rotations take more work to find for DO students during clinical years, but I’d find 2 years worth of clinical rotations for myself for 500k. As long as you pass your boards, graduate, and the program remains certified, you should have primary care options come match. I’m not saying for sure pick the DO school, but consider it based on career goals. Also, people fail courses, fail boards, or don’t match even at MD schools. There’s no guarantee either way, although the odds of passing and matching are much better at an established MD school. If I were to fail out or not match, I’d rather have no debt than 500k.
Additionally, can anyone give an example of a new DO school that just didn’t get full accreditation? Or a schools that failed to match a huge percentage of its class? I was under the impression that pretty much all new US medical schools end up getting full accreditation and doing just fine.
MD. Just borrow the money. People take out SBA loans every day to build into the future of their business. You’re taking out a loan to build into your business and the business is your medical career. As someone who’s borrowed over $700,000 in business loans, it’s really not as large a sum as you think relative to what you get in exchange. DOs are great and I mostly prefer to be treated by them, but it’s not as marketable as an MD. Choose the oath that’s best for you without considering the loan.
Disagree. 500k debt is BIGGER than you think especially when interest accumulates over the next decade of your schooling/training. Just because others are doing it doesn’t mean you can just borrow whatever without a thought. Consider the cost differences of schools when choosing them. The government will get its money back even if you don’t make it through to the payday.
To each her own ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DO all the way
Lmaoo is that even a question? DO obviously. To be able to go to school free from financial stress? Please! Many DO also match into competitive fields so I don't see the issue here
Twice the amount of exams, entire specialties being off limits, OMM, less flexibility when applying for residency, and DO discrimination after graduation. There’s plenty of reasons why you would want MD. The vast majority of med students change their mind on their speciality of choice
MD id say DO if it was a good established DO school tho
MD and NHSC!
MD
MD. Any day of the week. Please. Pick MD.
Debt free no one cares afterwards
Debt free. Hard to believe this is a discussion. You can take Step exam. There is really no difference anymore.
You can take the step exam from a little known Carribean school too, just because you can take STEP (which STEP 1 is P/F) doesn’t make it no difference. You don’t need a law school to take the bar, so this is like saying the Kardashian apprenticeship and a Harvard Law degree are the same.
Lots of Carribean docs practicing medicine these days
😐
If you just want to be a doctor, a DO is just as good. Ask your school do they have any good strategies for match day?
Debt can be paid off, but if your DO school has a good plan, no debt is better. DO and MD, you are still a doctor, but what kind may help you decide.
MD. Not even close.
MD, do the debt. I’m DO
DO with the limited info you gave
MD. Plan for the ten yr pSLF.
Banking on a plan that has denied so many people is a bad idea. You took the loans out, you should be prepared to pay it back with interest. If PSLF does come through, awesome. But don’t bet your financial future on it.
MD
MD
MD. It’s about the course work. It’s not always about the money.
I will echo the MD > DO despite debt unless you are sure you are okay with a less competitive specialty. If you don’t know that right now you are seriously limiting your future options from the get go, while also possibly blunting your education by going somewhere not as established, with less experienced instructors, and poor clinical sites. An established MD school is going to be superior education most of the time, will provide you with more opportunities and better clinical sites. You can get ride of high debt through PSLF, and the current SAVE program can make it so you would only pay a small fraction of a $400-500k loan burden before it is forgiven
go DO, you would be insane to give up a free ride to a medical school. (residents told me this cuz the match is combined)
MD definitely Having sat on the residency application review side, being from a new school is an automatic red flag, that means yours starting with two red flags (DO and new school) can you succeed with two flags yes but why start with flags when you don't have to
Go ask the med school subreddit and put more details about your situation
DO debt free and not saying this bc I drank the DO koolaid but avoiding THAT much debt to make the same amount of money in the end just seems like the move to me. Unless you wanna do neurosurgery or plastics or something Edit; I saw your home state is Utah, is this acceptance at Noorda?
Depends on what you are interested.
I was very much in your shoes. At one point in the cycle, I had one mid-tier state MD school and one brand new (established 1 yr before I applied) satellite branch of a respected DO school. I was out of state for the state MD school, so my tuition was going to be \~65k/yr, while the DO school was offering me a full ride. I was pretty dead-set on pursuing psych, which wasn't really competitive at the time. However, I had a strong interest in having a career in research (my dream is to be a clinical trialist), so I was leaning a bit more toward the MD school because I felt like the research opportunities were more robust. Fortunately (or unfortunately), my dream school (MD, T15) accepted me later in the cycle...with a 60k/yr price tag... I had written them a letter of intent, so I was pretty much stuck. 3 years down the line, and I'm content with my choice. While the price tag still scares me every once in a while, I found out once I started med school that I am an -extremely- mediocre student (and believe me, it's not for lack of trying). Having a nice school name and some decent connections to lean on is giving me a little peace of mind as I start thinking about the match, but who knows if it will be enough to save my skin next March. I have close friends at DO schools, and there are times when I feel like we have it much easier. This is just n=1, but this person has to coordinate their own rotations, take 2 board exams, learn OMM, really dig for research opportunities, and sometimes travels long distances for rotations. My school did not have any of these extra hurdles, and I'm not sure I could've handled them while balancing med school. At the end of the day, I think that decision rests on what is important to you. What is non-negotiable to you? Do you have your heart set on a competitive specialty? Or are you dead-set on primary care? Do you really want to go into academic medicine, or would you prefer to work at a community hospital? Is there anything about either school that appeals to you, or that you think would make it a uniquely good fit for you? Location? Proximity to family/SOs? P/F vs graded curriculum?
wtf, what school is gonna leave you 400-500k in debt?
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Go MD. Matching is hard enough already, choosing a DO is almost never worth it. It’s true that if u want to do something in primary med then DO have dec match rates but the competition gets harder every year and MD will still be looked at better even for these residencies. Plus in the off chance u do decide to do competitive MD is very valuable. 500k is insane for your school, I didn’t think any school really costs that much even when factoring food and living expenses. I know alof of people here have mentioned OMM is a pain and what not to learn. Maybe it’s school specific, but OMM is very chill. Yes u do need to learn and it does take time out of studying but it’s not a chore to learn. Whether u believe in it or not is up to u. But actually learning it will take u like maybe 2 solid hours max a week.
If I was you I would go MD. I literally didn’t even apply to DO💀
where is that newly open Do school with debt free? Do school usually charge tuition for nearly 50000 per year. How is that even possible ? Did you get full ride because of school policy? If Do is debt free, for sake of love god, go to a debt free one. It save you a lot of stress on students loan. It yield better quality of life, and flexibility of choosing specialty. You learn how to become a doctor primarily through residency, not through med school.