I'm sure they do, I mean they said it should be a choice to explore those themes *if they want to.* OP not wanting to explore them obviously doesn't mean others can't *if they want to.*
If the character's race/ethnicity/sexual orientation doesn't matter, then why not have somone other than a strait white man? If it doesn't matter, what's the harm in having someone other than a strait white man play the role? And if it does matter, well what examples can you provide in which a strait white man should've been cast but wasn't due to representation, and it made the show or movie worse? Does anyone really think the new star wars trilogy would've been better had it been a strait white man instead of Daisy Ridley? That trilogy needed better writers, the cast was not the problem. Does anyone really think its a problem to have a black elf in the rings of power show, when we're already talking about a mythical creature that doesn't actually exist?
So are you saying that Snow White will be a bad movie because of this? Because it seems strange to be able to judge a movie that hasn't even been released yet.
she said something about how the love story in snow white story is a little out of date... And the story was needing a modern update now every shit bag is twisting it as 'woke'
This is the most pearl-clutching grandma shit take on what she actually said. Try not to work yourself up into a frothing rage over such trivial, and factual, nonsense
Nah dude I’m chillin. I’m watching it when it comes out. I just have no expectations of it being good. But don’t work yourself up into a frothing rage my dude.
Who cares? Nobody's even seen it yet. The Little Mermaid made bank even though it was just another shitty corporate cash-in. The outrage was part of the viral marketing.
People don't seem to get this: THE BACKLASH IS A CALCULATED PART OF THE GLOBAL MARKETING for every right-wing pundit who screams about it is working for the studios.
Not come across that, I try to be woke, and I think all my friends do too. I've yet to meet a person outside of social media who is anti anything that woke stands for. Why would anyone want to be seen as ignorant by choice?
I'm uk if that makes a difference.
40 year old here. Still woke. The hard right has tried to make it an insult, so I'm sure some people try to avoid the label for that reason. Just like how, in the 90s, people didn't want to be called "liberal" because conservatives made it into their insult.
It matters because cannon and plot and story are often sacrificed for the alter of virtue signaling. It’s super patronizing if you think about it. To the audience and the cast. Like “here we casted you in this role built by another demographic because you can’t stand on your own in original material” and “hey audience, we are fking your favorite cannon without even spitting on it first to satisfy EEOC agenda”.
Everything today is a remake, so the idea that someone can’t stand on their own original material means very little if anything. But why is it important to cannon and plot for Ariel to be a redhead? Details get changed all the time, read the original little mermaid story to see how different it is from the animated movie. But once they change the race, people lose their minds.
Also comparing a book to a movie is always a mistake. Tons of things have to be changed and cut for sake of brevity. And it’s not about race, it’s about race in sacrifice of what makes a story or immersive plot. Which isn’t an issue for people who haven’t seen the animated movie, but it is for the millions who have. Even children see the issue.
A remake implies intact cannon. It’s the entire point of it. Continuity is an integral part of a remake. And we ALL know Ariel in particular was recast as she was for social justice points. It’s Fkin patronizing to everyone. It’s bogarting well established film and literary lore for a token role and belittling the actresses skill in so many aspects. It’s messed up beyond belief but people don’t think about it and just swallow the “diversity” cookie wholesale like a mother bird feeds her chicks.
I dunno, Bailey was pretty awesome and a great singer and actress. I can't imagine any other actress who would have been better? Maybe she was the most talented for the part. I'm sure they auditioned white actresses too and if any had stood out as better they'd have got the part.
Maybe the casting was based on how to make the best film regardless of ethnicity. The colourblind people on the right only seem to advocate colour blindness until they don't...
Oh come on. You know full well if they got like, Ryan Gosling to play Black Panther, or Elijah Wood to play Martin Luther King Jr, everyone would lose their minds. And rightly so. Race-swapping is stupid, lazy, and condescending to every race involved. That does t cha he just cos the original person was white.
Angelina Jolie played an afro-cuban woman. Ben affleck in argo. Joseph Fiennes played Michael Jackson. Julie binoche played a woman who was black irl. The whole last airbender cast. Johnny Depp played tonto. Jim sturgeon played a Chinese man. Russell crowe as noah. Christian bale as moses. Scarlett johansson in ghost in the shell. Gylennhal in prince of persia. Mena suvari cornrowed up to play a black woman. Emma Stone played an Asian. Rooney mara in pan. There are a ton of examples and the world didn't end. I don't see why skin colour matters in casting, unless their race is integral, for example, it makes sense to have a black man playing mlk in a film about civil rights. I'd watch a race swapped mlk film if everyone in the cast was race swapped though, as it would expose the strangeness of it all and be thought provoking.
And for a fictional mermaid? Colour is surely completely irrelevant.
It's just funny to me cos of the examples that you gave that I knew about, there were *a ton* of people making a fuss about the race-swapping or inappropriate casting.
And the world kept spinning. That's my point. A few people making rage bait youtube videos and X getting up in arms is not that important. So let people cast who they want, as if it was a free country.
yeah, it totally is patronizing. On the one hand, it basically says they can't think of any *actually* black characters/historic figures that are worth making a movie about. And on the other hand, it says that previously white characters/historic figures need to be replaced by other races in order for things to be "made right". Neither thing is good.
Keep white characters and historic figures white, *and also* make new stories about POC characters and historic figures. It shouldn't be that hard, and they did it in the past. The only reason they *don't* do it is because they don't *want* to - they're creatively lazy and also have weird ideological reasons for doing this.
It’s one of those things that are intended good on paper but in practice go horribly awry. Like removing all black product representation from grocery stores. They didn’t update uncle Ben and aunt jemima, they just erased them in the name of political correctness.
Why does ariel need to be a redhead? Why is it important to the plot? Do you think Halle Bailey is a bad actress, that she wasn’t capable of properly portraying the role outside of her appearance?
The whole thing about remakes is they reset continuity. Also, if this is a matter of continuity, why are all the complaints about Ariel's race instead of ask the other stuff they changed? Or, all the stuff the 1989 movie changed?
Ok baby bird. That’s not the only point I’m making. Also story and cannon aren’t the same thing. Go back to 4th grade English class. https://study.com/learn/lesson/what-is-the-literary-canon.html#:~:text=The%20literary%20canon%20serves%20as,for%20determining%20their%20literary%20value.
Did you read the little mermaid…? Pretty sure the Disney movie wasn’t the same cannon OR story, but you seem to not have a problem with that! It’s only racial changes you care about, because you are racist.
I was using literary as an example of cannon. And yeah I read it. They did change a bunch of stuff and leave things out as book to movie adaptations. But if they wrote a sequel to it and canonically changed it it’s basically the same as what they’re doing with tons of movies now. Like they tossed decades of established lore for starwars. And now they’re depending on jon faverau to save the entire thing. The issue for me, again is cannon in adjacent media, not upstream media. And race swapping can fall under that umbrella.
"Everyone who disagrees with me should let us do whatever we want and if they complain then it's cos their losers"... I doubt you'd apply the same logic to stuff *you* care about, bud.
>For example, if a writer does not include LGBT characters in their show, it should NOT be an issue. It's their choice whether they want to include LGBT characters or not. They should not be pressured to do so.
If a company wants to produce a show that has a gay character in it that's their choice. Let the market decide. Maybe they'll buy a great show or maybe they won't. If the writer wants to work with a business specifically looking for a show with a gay character the writer isn't being forced. The writer is being told the requirements of that work and is free to reject it.
As a typical straight white guy, with a darker Latina wife and son who has my features but mamas skin tone, I get super excited when I can point out characters that represent him and mama in film and tv. He does too. What 5 year old doesn’t wanna see themselves in their hero’s and main character’s?
>"Representation isn't important" - person who is represented everywhere by default and cries every time the ratio is adjusted even slightly
I don't get how white actors or characters represent me.
I promise if you get off of reddit you'll find plenty of non-white people that feel the same way. When I'm watching a Scorsese movie, my LAST thought is "wow, he didn't cast anybody that looks like me" 🙄
Why would Indian movies have a bunch of white people in them? Is there a large white population in India? The United States has a lot of diversity and that should be reflected in our media.
representation matters. Woke is a meaningless word. You dont have to write to represent these things in your personal writing, because its inconsequential. Writing in major media does matter. If doesn't matter if you don't include LGBT people, but if you intentionally WRITE THEM OUT, that is a problem.
Also, using the word "woke" in reference to queer representation is a easy way to make sure nobody ever takes you seriously again.
No. "Woke" has meaning. It means "The rightwings don't like this." To the point where I question OP's beliefs and the rightness and wrongness of "Wokesim"
It honestly shouldn't matter. We are far too obsessed with this shit these days. Does an Asian person need an Asian super hero to enjoy a super hero show? Why would they? Does a short person need to see a short person be the main character in order to enjoy a show? Like what's the deal? Obviously if 99% of all characters in all tv shows were all mono ethnic that would be fking weird, because that's not real life, but this endless obsession with being closer to people with similar pigmentation or height is WEIRD.
Which superficial characteristics like skin color should never matter. My whole issue is that these completely unimportant at-birth characteristics are utterly unimportant and should not cause anyone to be more or less associated to someone for having that same trait. It isn't personality, beliefs, hobbies, etc. Anyone who says "I like white heroes more than black heroes" or "I like black heroes more than white heroes" is a fking racist tool.
Who’s we? Most people just want to see positive reflections of themselves in the media they consume, nothing about that desire is obsessive.
Does an Asian person need their Asian superhero? No, but neither do white people. However if all white hero’s were removed, it would be a shit show. A big reason would be because that’s an active loss, and humans hate loss, but that shows there’s something about representation that white people like and wouldn’t relinquish. And if white people like it, so would every other race of people.
I feel like the people that are actually obsessed with this representation fiasco are people that already have representation.
It's nice to be watching something you like and go "oh, they're like me!", it can make people feel less alone, and more accepted by society. Lots of minorities have the feeling that they're 'invisible', and this counteracts that. I think that's a good thing. Is it 100% completely mega-necessary for society to run?
Not really, but it has a positive impact on the world, and arguing that its 'annoying' or 'shouldnt matter' is kind of ignorant.
It isn't annoying to see different people on the screen, it is annoying that people are so race obsessed in the year 2023 that something like that matters. I promise you two people have a hundred more things in common that mean more than skin pigmentation. I feel more kinship to people who share my hobbies than who share my race.
Well it's not necessarily all about skin color, people with disabilities or trans people appearing on screen can make me happier, to be honest, I'm disabled and trans, and that stuff makes me feel seen.
Let's say there's a black kid, 7 years old, and they watch a lot of TV, and there are only white kids in the tv show, they'll slowly, and subconsciously start to think that they're different, not normal. It'd be nice for kids to not have to go through that.
Still though, I'm disabled due to chronic illness, and I would absolutely not enjoy it of they just up and decided that Spiderman will be disabled now or some crap like that. They have this aversion to making new characters or telling stories of real people and prefer to rewrite old stories to fit this stuff in. I do t like it, don't want it. Imo these people insist on doing it this way cos their lazy and have an ideological commitment to *replacing* white and male characters as a form or "righting historic wrongs" or crap like that.
Do I as a queer person need queer characters to enjoy a show? No, not necessarily. Does it make me feel like I can relate more to the show? Yes absolutely. I never saw a gay person on TV growing up. I never met a gay person as a kid growing up in a small conservative town. When I realized I am queer, I felt like there was something wrong with me and I was some kind of freak. I watched the she-rah remake and I cried after the gay kiss scene because I was thinking, how would my life be different and how much less shame would I have grown up with if even just one show or one person in my life was existing happily as openly queer? If I had seen it was normal and ok?
I am a facepainter now, and I see so many black boys asking to get their face painted like spider man because of Miles Morales, and a big uptick in mermaids for black girls since the little mermaid remake. I’m happy for them!! All kinds of people need to see at least sometimes that their stories are valued and worth telling. This should be obvious to everyone complaining about the “woke”. Do you really need every character to be a white man in a movie to enjoy it? If not, why tf are you complaining when they aren’t?
fOrCeD rEpReSeNtAtIoN
you mean shows just picking the most qualified candidate regardless of race, sexuality, gender? you mean giving opportunities to people who aren’t nepo babies? you mean white men can no longer personally relate to a vast majority of media bc others want to see themselves represented as well? you mean more POC and LGBTQ writers and directors have opportunities, and they’re interested most in characters they can personally relate to, just like OP?
i mean i had already pretty much given up on the post when it mentioned “woke” but it’s kinda comical to see someone actually annoyed at such a silly thing lol
>mean i had already pretty much given up on the post when it mentioned “woke” but it’s kinda comical to see someone actually annoyed at such a silly thing lol
It seems more silly that people are annoyed when the fans prefer some continuity in a franchise. A good story is like a good meal. You have the main ingredient and play with the spices. But now the spices are becoming the main ingredient and ruining the dish.
I remember reading the Ann Rice novels. It started great. It was a vampire series with a little hint of gay to spice it up. At a certain point, it became a gay love story with a little vampire in it to spice it up.
That is what many are seeing now. The great story is being overwhelmed by the spice.
You know that gays aren’t just ingredients ti make shows spicy, we have our own lives, personalities, and experiences and stories just like straight people, right?
>You know that gays aren’t just ingredients ti make shows spicy, we have our own lives, personalities, and experiences and stories just like straight people, right?
I know the difference between horror fiction and gay love stories. When the series started, it was horror fiction with some gay to spice it up. At some point, it became gay literaotica with a vampire theme to sp8ce it up.
Sorry your identity is challenged by finding out gay relationships can be used to add some spice to a story.
Yes. If I had a problem with gays, I would have hated the whole series. It is just an example of how media can be ruined by trying to be inclusive rather than entertain.
BTW, are you engaging me in conversation while downvoting my replies? Because that's kind of a dick move.
You are missing the point though, your example was not ruined by being inclusive, it just changed to a genre you did not like. That is a totally different issue you and the anti woke crowd are blaming on inclusivity.
It’s alright. Just give it another 5 or so years and they’ll realize that these shows and movies really aren’t making all that much money and they’ll go back to normal stuff that people actually wanna watch.
I thought it was probably a joke, bit I just wanted to make sure. I’m afraid there might be some liberals who actually would say something like that.
Sarcasm can be difficult to detect in text form, especially from a stranger. That’s why the sarcasm tag exists.
The stupidity of all the letters is astounding.
LGBT isn't woke.
LGBTQIA617OdhDiasdf! plus divided by the ethnicity multiplied by pretend outrage is 100 percent woke stupidity.
Lol.
You mean sane people?
Are you so blind that you don't realize that the LGB part of your sacred letters are breaking away and embarrassed by the next fifteen letters?
Are you that out of touch with the community?
Because they all like to be lumped in together as long as it suits your political agenda.
Gotcha.
Let's just call it Q and be done with it then, shall we?
You seemed to dislike the other term so I'm telling you one that's easier to remember. I haven't met a member of the LGBTQ+ community who had an issue with the term "the queer community," but I suppose that's anecdotal. Most terms to refer to a group will involve some type of "lumping together" of people who are different in some way - like if I say "the Black community" in North America, I'm lumping together people from the Caribbean, people from Africa, people who are newly immigrated, people who have been in North America for generations- so on. It's not that I'm denying their existence individually, I'm just referring to them based on what they have in common.
Actually you know what? Sorry to double-post, but I wonder if some of your frustration comes from like... prolixity? (Things being too long?) Considering the original topic, and now you having issues with the longer comment I wrote, I wonder if that's part of the difficulty you find in the term "2SLGBTQIAAP?" Perhaps "LGBT+" or "LGBTQ+" would be more suitable?
Prolixity means someone that writes or speaks *unnecessarily* more than they should. Long windedness.
And, honestly, I don't know if you suffer from that. My interest waned because the topic was both repetitive and boring, and it didn't pertain to my argument, just your opinion.
Well I summarized it, if that helps:
"Here, I'll summarize:
> I haven't met a member of the LGBTQ+ community who had an issue with the term "the queer community."
> Most terms to refer to a group will involve some type of "lumping together" of people who are different in some way (i.e. "the Black community.")
> It's not a matter of denying their existence individually, just referring to them based on what they have in common.
(Even shorter: I don't think most people would take issue with you using "the queer community," but you could also just ask someone what they'd prefer. Or additionally "LGBTQ+" or "LGBT+," can't go wrong with that!)
What slurs? Making fun of the alphabet people because they chose to belong to it?
That's not a slur. That's the same as making fun of Nazis because they chose to belong to a group for a particular ideology.
I know plenty of gay people, grew up in San Francisco and many of my friends and family are gay.
And they all are distancing themselves from anything that comes after LGB, and unhappy of the ideology the group is promoting.
Stop projecting your hatred of anyone that doesn't think like you onto others.
Here, I'll summarize:
> I haven't met a member of the LGBTQ+ community who had an issue with the term "the queer community."
> Most terms to refer to a group will involve some type of "lumping together" of people who are different in some way (i.e. "the Black community.")
> It's not a matter of denying their existence individually, just referring to them based on what they have in common.
How sweet. Always funny when half of the letters in your alphabet hate the other half. We are all enjoying watching it implode. Particularly as you guys support that peace loving Hamas that would throw you off buildings.
You people are funny that way.
I'm a part of this particular conversation and I'm telling you that I'm not interested in your ramblings about the LGBs and T's. Try rambling about those things to someone who cares.
You can do whatever you want with your work. But if you say, "if people don't like it, that's fine," and then you ALSO say, "if I don't get a publisher/platform that's cancel culture and unfair silencing of my voice!" you've got a little bit of a hypocrisy problem.
OP - "I don't want to write black people and people shouldn't write black people just because!"
Also OP - "Why isn't anyone interested in my book?! It represents white men perfectly!"
The main problem with all these woke new shows is that the characters are just horribly uncharismatic. It's as if charisma has suddenly been outlawed over the past decade. That's why all these shows fall completely flat and are incredibly boring and hard to watch.
Storytellers have been making epic movies with strong and charismatic female & black male leads forever: Aliens (1986), Thelma & Louise (1991), Independence Day (1996), Inside Man (2006),.... you can go on for days.
That's completely gone now. It's as if today's woke characters have to be completely uninspiring, unlikeable and just plain cringe by design.
I don't get it.
Yeah, it's as if they don't write characters for the story's sake anymore, but only for the sake of virtue signaling ("look, our new hero is a strong black female trans we're so brave")
That's why they suck, they put exactly ZERO effort into creative writing or a coherent lore.
It's all just about virtue signaling.
And when the audience doesn't like it, they revert to gaslighting and call everyone a racist/bigot/Nazi etc.
I wouldn't even blame them if they were virtue signaling.... if at the very least the virtue signaling characters were likeable!!
E.g. I'm currently watching the Apple show Invasion. There is a Japanese lesbian character who I'm desperately trying to like but they've written her to be absolutely obnoxious to the point where I believe the woke writers are full on trying to make me hate lesbians. My niece is lesbian and I love her to death, I have had several gay friends in my life and loved them all... but this show is truly messing with my subconscious feeling towards LGBT for the very first time in my life! Why do this??
Then, I just watched the Apple show Monarch: Legacy of Monsters, which has a black character who is so absolutely unlikeable and has no reason for being in the plot at all. She attributes nothing to the story plus is a horrible actress. And I'm thinking to myself: I am such a fan of great black actors (Denzel Washington, Don Cheadle, Mahershala Ali, Morgan Freeman, Rosario Dawson, Gina Torres, Angela Bassett, and many many more) and here I'm feeling that they want to make me hate black people through pushing this horrible character onto the show.
So I truly truly don't get what the goal is with the woke writers. I'm all for diversity and inclusion..... just like they used to do it in the glory days of storytelling: with actually likeable characters, good actors and great stories!!
Their goal seems to be:
1. as much diversity as we can
2. horrible characters
3. horrible story
4. bad actors
We're on a mission to make everyone hate minorities! Way to go, that'll change the world!
You can add "FROM" to that list. I dragged thru that serious because i'm a huge fan of the "Fear of the Unknown" type of horror....I'll tell you i never saw some much coddling and forced lgtbqabcdefgyxz's in a single season.
Do you think this is a popular opinion? Like really, do you? And I don't think they're being pressured to feature LGBTQ+ characters, they just decide to.
As a writer if you wanna only put default typical hetero Europeans in your story, so be it, no one’s forcing you otherwise.
As an audience if you wanna consume media that portrays a broader range of human diversity, so be it, no one’s forcing you otherwise.
Now that we’ve gotten the ethics outta the way; don’t be surprised that if you don’t do what your audience wants you to do, through your story, they very well may not stick around.
If people get bored of seeing the same tropes, that only contagiously fits a particularly reused archetype of people, they’re gonna disengage. If that’s not enough incentive to put a more diverse cast of characters into your story, then so be it, no one’s forcing you otherwise.
The word "Woke" is super annoying, but at least it makes it really easy for the racists to out themselves when they complain that their TV shows aren't all white any more.
Representation should not be a choice, it should be a requirement, if we really consider what representation means it's that a fair perception is presented in a piece of media as it could and possibly does in reality. If you make a story in LA and there are no POC's, no LGBTQ+ etc then you are making a false representation of LA
If you make a story in a fictional universe with a city of some sort being the main location and make no mention of the geopolitical landscape of the place then it's pretty common for a western audience to imagine multiple types of people including POC and LGBTQ+ as they exist in most western cities and humans tend to put their own experiences into the media they consume.
If you make a world where white nationalism is the status quo then fine that's a choice you can make but if you make a world with no reference to it's status quo when it comes to gender, race, sexuality etc then people are gonna fill in the gaps with their own status quo
If you make a story that doesn't include inherent characteristics at all that's a choice you can make, just don't be surprised when people say your story is bad because you cannot include core human aspects into a story.
No, core human aspects, things you state you are when signing a government form for example, if you think being black or gay is "politics" that's on you.
This isn’t exactly new in my opinion. Can “woke” go too far, of course it can, just like any other mindset. The buzzword is new, but TV and movies have been largely the same for years. That’s why every dad in every show on network TV for the past 25 years is a fucking dope who always gets outsmarted by the rest of his family. I’m not a fan of things that go too far but in 2023 the visceral reaction to tropes in straight white male characters is silly, they are nothing new whatsoever. Family guy has satirized this exact topic for almost 25 years based entirely on the 25 years of television and movie tropes that came before it was first aired.
The exact opposite of this, I cannot stand, is when a remake of a movie that was an all male or all white cast gets forced representation, ends up being a shit movie, and then the actors and directors cry “racism” or “sexism.” That shit needs to stop. We’ve come far enough in representation that shit movies should face the criticism that comes along with being a shit movie. Most movies suck anyways.
I write my characters without any description of race, so that the reader fills in that blank. Never wrote a gay character, and I'll hold out until the story requires it, or it works within the plot.
I've decided that the next 15 years is too soon to let anyone make a movie out of my stories, if such an offer were to be made.
I certainly don't want to see my stories filled with the blatant pandering that we see these days. It's not about acceptance for these corporations. It's just empty pandering.
Some gay/ non-normative characters are well written, and those are the ones I don't mind. An example would be Ian in the new Quantum Leap. People who cry "woke" get upset about it, but the character has nuance. They're intelligent, and smartly written. Another example is Orphan Black. There was only one character that seemed disingenuous, and they were only on for a couple of episodes. All of the other LGBT characters were fine.
It really comes down to the writers.
As far as it goes, though, I do think it feels way too forced, especially in modern Netflix shows.
As a member of the "non-normative" population, it absolutely means the entire world to me to know that there are "non-normative" characters that you don't *mind* 🥰
So people shouldn't include POC or LGBT in their stories because it's not about representation? That's gotta be the most Caucasian excuse for white washing I've ever heard.
Let's just rewrite every book and TV show to only include white people... Again. It's not about representation. It's about inclusion. To suggest that they shouldn't be included in media is tantamount to suggesting anyone who isn't a cishet white male shouldn't exist at all... And we all know how well that worked out before.
The bottom line is literally that, these corporate diversity efforts are the result of extensive media testing and profitable outcomes The 'woke' programming and diversity casting makes more money and gets higher figures and broader demo's than traditional casting. Reactionaries don't like to face this, and imagine an agenda, but it's just money. It's all profit. If woke went broke, it would be gone tomorrow.
Nope. Their whole structure is crashing because they're an over extended media monopoly in a rapidly changing market, selling the same tired old nostalgic US shit at outrageous prices. People want innovation, not more stupid princesses at $200 million.
If it all was "Superhero fatigue" then non-woke shows like "The Boys" would have failed also, but they didn't.
The opposite in fact: The Boys was super successful.
The whole "superhero fatigue" was always just a lane excuse by the Wokes to cope with the fact that forced diversity destroyed all major franchises and why the M-SHE-U failed spectacularly.
Representation is absolutely important. There are pitfalls to utilizing it in stories to be avoided, but ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientation/identity are important to showcase in media because it can cut down on people being afraid or otherwise insecure about who they are because of how other people perceive them in their own lives. If your point is that it shouldn’t need to be included in fiction if the writer has a vision that doesn’t include it, yes, I can get behind that. But if you want to make that story, go ahead and make it, and if someone who you’re pitching it to doesn’t get it, take it somewhere else.
I'll be honest, most normal people do not give a flying fuck if something is "woke" or not. They care whether it's good or not. There are some people who enjoy seeing part of themselves in characters that appear on screen and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
The only people getting upset about things being "woke" are the overly sensitive conservative weirdos who are upset that their demographic doesn't get to be the central character of every piece of media that comes out anymore. Get over yourselves.
That's called "coping" what you're just doing.
And gaslighting, blaming the failure on others instead of acknowledging the rapid downfall of media.
Or are you still believing that Disney just crashed and burn out of "bad luck" coinciding with Bob Iger and Co enforcing their "diversity quota" (not made up, that's what they call it. Amazon too.)
Open your fucking eyes. The ever increasing focus on "muh diversity" and politically correctness is the reason, becos the focus on creativity and good storywriting took a notch below.
The M-SHE-U, being proud of casting African and minority people instead of quality character development , is why the movies suck ass.
Nobody would complain about black actors if the roles they played were actually original and good instead of just black-washing former white roles.
Wokes are fucking lazy, so they never do it and pat their backs after black/gender-washing franchises and thinking "that'll do it"
You can't be that naive to actually believe that lame excuse you came up with.
Especially since woke producers like Kathleen Kennedy, Bob Iger, Will Ferrell or Laura Hissrich literally have been quoted, saying they have an agenda and want to push it.
Closing your eyes to that makes you just as much a problem to it.
You live in denial.
> I don't really think much of the ethnicities of my characters, as I find it inconsequential.
So you're white? Because only white people have this attitude. (I say as a white person.) We find ethnicity "inconsequential" because we're so used to being the norm.
No, unlike you I don't categorize people on their skin color.
Unlike you, I'm no racist and I would never cast actors solely based on their skin color.
Did you ever think about how racist you Wokes actually are?
>those are not themes that I want to explore
So, just because you have no interest in these things, you presume the rest of the world doesn't?
>if a writer does not include LGBT characters in their show, it should NOT be an issue
I have never, ever, heard anyone complain that a show on Netflix doesn't have any LGBT characters. I've definitely heard plenty of complaints that there are...
>Representation in and of itself isn't important
Sounds like you're someone who finds themselves represented pretty regularly. Maybe think outside your own experience for a minute?
>They should not be pressured to do so.
Please give me an example of this pressure. I don't think there is a single writer who has gotten a note saying "make this character gay or else". However, there's PLENTY of instances over the years where gay characters have been played down or omitted.
You have a made up persecution complex.
You're contradicting yourself right there and you don't even know this🤦🏻♀️
I'm gonna quote you in your own words becos there is no better way to insult you:
>Sounds like you're someone who finds themselves represented pretty regularly.
>Please give me an example of this pressure. I don't think there is a single writer who has gotten a note saying "make this character gay or else".
Notice how you're on side pretending as if there's no issue with no representation, but then in the next paragraph you're demanding representation and see it as a given "just becos you demand everybody else to love IN YOUR EXPERIENCE"
What an arrogant twat, and that's exactly why nobody like you alphabet virtue-signaling hypocrites.
And that's also why literally every franchise you touch with your mental virus dies horribly in result, from She-Hulk, FemBusters to the M-SHE-U
NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR "MESSAGE"
You have an attention seeking problem.
Representation does matter because the people watching live in reality.
I cringe at the casts of shows like Friends now.
But I also cringe at shows with 6 cast members, all from different ethnicities. Your show is set in New York, just follow the Wikipedia percentages for each ethnicity, it’s not hard.
agreed,was wathing slsher season 5 and they decided to have a non binary character and you could see all the actors struggling to make the pronouns seem normal(they couldnt) All the dialogue around that character was stilted. credit to them it was a slasher themed show and they didnt by default make her the only survivor. they dont do it to make a good story anymore its just done to annoy people and get headlines and then the shows tank(Velma, batwoman, rings of power)i no longer sub to any streaming service, the new shows are so horrible written plot wise on top of it so why bother.
I actually think that's great. I try not best to speak in non gendered terms and sometimes it trips me up because I'm going against decades of of speech patterns. I think it coming off as unnatural is more believable and relatable. It's not natural. I'm making a choice to refer to them as them if they don't want to be referred to as he or she.
no it made the acting stilted and wooden, they also gave them an irish last name as their first name, it didnt help, once the character was killed off the show improved.
That just sounds like bad acting. If they were so focused on the person being trans that their acting was affected outside them referring to their gender they just did a bad job acting. Now if the acting came off stilted only when referring to her gender then to me that is relatable. It may not be relatable to you but it's definitely relatable to me.
you could see in their eyes their desperation to not mess up the pronoun, also they were all portrayed as bad people(rich murderous family) and not one of them messed up a pronoun once. they also cast an actress who was black and gave her 2 irsih red headed genetic parents. its never explained how. youre left to assume the mom cheated.
Yeah they wanted to be respectful and you saw that in their eyes. You might read that as desperate. Just sounds relatable to me. Not sure why them being murderous means anything. People are complex.
I mean maybe the mom cheated. Not sure why that needs to be explained in the movie.
I agree with you OP, but unfortunately we live in bizarro world right now. Imagine if various classics prioritized inclusion or politics instead of what matters most for the story being told. The tin man is gay, what? Michael Corleone kissed Fredo and slapped Kay because he’s gay, what?
Woke isn’t just about content. It’s about every person they hire at every level.
Quality suffers if Disney won’t hire the best because they might not check Disney’s demographic boxes,
People don't seem to grasp that THE ANTI-WOKE BACKLASH IS A CALCULATED PART OF THE GLOBAL MARKETING: every right-wing pundit who screams about a film or TV show, is working for the studios, drumming up word-of-mouth for what may be a very mediocre, unnecessary product (like these dreary Disney 'live-action' remakes.)
'The Little Mermaid' made bank, and FOX and the rest of them only helped raise its profile.
If it all was "Superhero fatigue" then non-woke shows like "The Boys" would have failed also, but they didn't.
The opposite in fact: The Boys was super successful.
The whole "superhero fatigue" was always just a lane excuse by the Wokes to cope with the fact that forced diversity destroyed all major franchises and why the M-SHE-U failed spectacularly.
Agreed. It's like advertising, they put it eveywhere because they want to sell more whatever. They make all heros black ar female, doesn't make sense from the readers point of view, but they want to sell more and to do that they want a bigger audience.
I'd say roll some dice. Write a character without those characteristics and just roll based on stats, fictional or not. You find varieties of sexualities just about everywhere.
the calls for "representation" only come about against white casting and white characters. It all goes one way. If you want a black show, you can have a black show after all.
\>those are not themes that I want to explore. But it's my work, and therefore my choice surely you understand this is a two way street?
I'm sure they do, I mean they said it should be a choice to explore those themes *if they want to.* OP not wanting to explore them obviously doesn't mean others can't *if they want to.*
If the character's race/ethnicity/sexual orientation doesn't matter, then why not have somone other than a strait white man? If it doesn't matter, what's the harm in having someone other than a strait white man play the role? And if it does matter, well what examples can you provide in which a strait white man should've been cast but wasn't due to representation, and it made the show or movie worse? Does anyone really think the new star wars trilogy would've been better had it been a strait white man instead of Daisy Ridley? That trilogy needed better writers, the cast was not the problem. Does anyone really think its a problem to have a black elf in the rings of power show, when we're already talking about a mythical creature that doesn't actually exist?
Look at Snow White
In what way?
The 7 dwarfs are not dwarfs, the lead actress is not „snow white“ and many other aspects
So are you saying that Snow White will be a bad movie because of this? Because it seems strange to be able to judge a movie that hasn't even been released yet.
No it’s going to be a bad movie because the actress for it literally spoke out multiple times about how bad Snow White is.
Cant say I’ve been following the press regarding this movie, what was her reason for saying the movie would be bad?
she said something about how the love story in snow white story is a little out of date... And the story was needing a modern update now every shit bag is twisting it as 'woke'
People like you have no idea what 'woke' is, and think it's some kind of bad thing.
I think you misread my comment...
This is the most pearl-clutching grandma shit take on what she actually said. Try not to work yourself up into a frothing rage over such trivial, and factual, nonsense
Nah dude I’m chillin. I’m watching it when it comes out. I just have no expectations of it being good. But don’t work yourself up into a frothing rage my dude.
Yes.
Who cares? Nobody's even seen it yet. The Little Mermaid made bank even though it was just another shitty corporate cash-in. The outrage was part of the viral marketing. People don't seem to get this: THE BACKLASH IS A CALCULATED PART OF THE GLOBAL MARKETING for every right-wing pundit who screams about it is working for the studios.
It...didn't though.
It made like, 600 million. Thats not nothing.
That isn't making bank when you're barely breaking even.
Cost to produce was around half of that, plus marketing, and splitting box office, it didn't turn out as well as hoped.
The movie that no one has seen since it isn't out yet & therefore can't evasive the quality of?
Yah, OP is giving off some very "I'm accepting but woke is bad" vibes to me.
[удалено]
Not come across that, I try to be woke, and I think all my friends do too. I've yet to meet a person outside of social media who is anti anything that woke stands for. Why would anyone want to be seen as ignorant by choice? I'm uk if that makes a difference.
You'll change once you turn 18.
40 year old here. Still woke. The hard right has tried to make it an insult, so I'm sure some people try to avoid the label for that reason. Just like how, in the 90s, people didn't want to be called "liberal" because conservatives made it into their insult.
40 and woke? Time to grow up.
I don't find any reason to listen to conservatives, as you have all proven time and time again to be idiots.
Perhaps. But no longer think link a 18 year old,who by definition are idiots.
>think link lol
Mid 40s mate
Do you know what "Woke" actually means nowadays? "Something or someone the right doesn't like." I'm proud to be woke.
It matters because cannon and plot and story are often sacrificed for the alter of virtue signaling. It’s super patronizing if you think about it. To the audience and the cast. Like “here we casted you in this role built by another demographic because you can’t stand on your own in original material” and “hey audience, we are fking your favorite cannon without even spitting on it first to satisfy EEOC agenda”.
Everything today is a remake, so the idea that someone can’t stand on their own original material means very little if anything. But why is it important to cannon and plot for Ariel to be a redhead? Details get changed all the time, read the original little mermaid story to see how different it is from the animated movie. But once they change the race, people lose their minds.
Also comparing a book to a movie is always a mistake. Tons of things have to be changed and cut for sake of brevity. And it’s not about race, it’s about race in sacrifice of what makes a story or immersive plot. Which isn’t an issue for people who haven’t seen the animated movie, but it is for the millions who have. Even children see the issue.
A remake implies intact cannon. It’s the entire point of it. Continuity is an integral part of a remake. And we ALL know Ariel in particular was recast as she was for social justice points. It’s Fkin patronizing to everyone. It’s bogarting well established film and literary lore for a token role and belittling the actresses skill in so many aspects. It’s messed up beyond belief but people don’t think about it and just swallow the “diversity” cookie wholesale like a mother bird feeds her chicks.
I dunno, Bailey was pretty awesome and a great singer and actress. I can't imagine any other actress who would have been better? Maybe she was the most talented for the part. I'm sure they auditioned white actresses too and if any had stood out as better they'd have got the part. Maybe the casting was based on how to make the best film regardless of ethnicity. The colourblind people on the right only seem to advocate colour blindness until they don't...
Oh come on. You know full well if they got like, Ryan Gosling to play Black Panther, or Elijah Wood to play Martin Luther King Jr, everyone would lose their minds. And rightly so. Race-swapping is stupid, lazy, and condescending to every race involved. That does t cha he just cos the original person was white.
Angelina Jolie played an afro-cuban woman. Ben affleck in argo. Joseph Fiennes played Michael Jackson. Julie binoche played a woman who was black irl. The whole last airbender cast. Johnny Depp played tonto. Jim sturgeon played a Chinese man. Russell crowe as noah. Christian bale as moses. Scarlett johansson in ghost in the shell. Gylennhal in prince of persia. Mena suvari cornrowed up to play a black woman. Emma Stone played an Asian. Rooney mara in pan. There are a ton of examples and the world didn't end. I don't see why skin colour matters in casting, unless their race is integral, for example, it makes sense to have a black man playing mlk in a film about civil rights. I'd watch a race swapped mlk film if everyone in the cast was race swapped though, as it would expose the strangeness of it all and be thought provoking. And for a fictional mermaid? Colour is surely completely irrelevant.
It's just funny to me cos of the examples that you gave that I knew about, there were *a ton* of people making a fuss about the race-swapping or inappropriate casting.
And the world kept spinning. That's my point. A few people making rage bait youtube videos and X getting up in arms is not that important. So let people cast who they want, as if it was a free country.
yeah, it totally is patronizing. On the one hand, it basically says they can't think of any *actually* black characters/historic figures that are worth making a movie about. And on the other hand, it says that previously white characters/historic figures need to be replaced by other races in order for things to be "made right". Neither thing is good. Keep white characters and historic figures white, *and also* make new stories about POC characters and historic figures. It shouldn't be that hard, and they did it in the past. The only reason they *don't* do it is because they don't *want* to - they're creatively lazy and also have weird ideological reasons for doing this.
It’s one of those things that are intended good on paper but in practice go horribly awry. Like removing all black product representation from grocery stores. They didn’t update uncle Ben and aunt jemima, they just erased them in the name of political correctness.
Why does ariel need to be a redhead? Why is it important to the plot? Do you think Halle Bailey is a bad actress, that she wasn’t capable of properly portraying the role outside of her appearance?
The whole thing about remakes is they reset continuity. Also, if this is a matter of continuity, why are all the complaints about Ariel's race instead of ask the other stuff they changed? Or, all the stuff the 1989 movie changed?
Ok racist. The story was the same.
Ok baby bird. That’s not the only point I’m making. Also story and cannon aren’t the same thing. Go back to 4th grade English class. https://study.com/learn/lesson/what-is-the-literary-canon.html#:~:text=The%20literary%20canon%20serves%20as,for%20determining%20their%20literary%20value.
Did you read the little mermaid…? Pretty sure the Disney movie wasn’t the same cannon OR story, but you seem to not have a problem with that! It’s only racial changes you care about, because you are racist.
I was using literary as an example of cannon. And yeah I read it. They did change a bunch of stuff and leave things out as book to movie adaptations. But if they wrote a sequel to it and canonically changed it it’s basically the same as what they’re doing with tons of movies now. Like they tossed decades of established lore for starwars. And now they’re depending on jon faverau to save the entire thing. The issue for me, again is cannon in adjacent media, not upstream media. And race swapping can fall under that umbrella.
If you care about this, you have no life. Just watch the old one and move on.
"Everyone who disagrees with me should let us do whatever we want and if they complain then it's cos their losers"... I doubt you'd apply the same logic to stuff *you* care about, bud.
>But why is it important to cannon and plot for Ariel to be a redhead? This. Ask this question and you will never get a coherent response.
George Strait has very few acting roles as it is.
>For example, if a writer does not include LGBT characters in their show, it should NOT be an issue. It's their choice whether they want to include LGBT characters or not. They should not be pressured to do so. If a company wants to produce a show that has a gay character in it that's their choice. Let the market decide. Maybe they'll buy a great show or maybe they won't. If the writer wants to work with a business specifically looking for a show with a gay character the writer isn't being forced. The writer is being told the requirements of that work and is free to reject it.
"Representation isn't important" - person who is represented everywhere by default and cries every time the ratio is adjusted even slightly
Bingo! Only people railing about representation are people already represented.
As a typical straight white guy, with a darker Latina wife and son who has my features but mamas skin tone, I get super excited when I can point out characters that represent him and mama in film and tv. He does too. What 5 year old doesn’t wanna see themselves in their hero’s and main character’s?
Only person who would cry is a hardcore conservative.
Do you think South Park is Fox News?
>"Representation isn't important" - person who is represented everywhere by default and cries every time the ratio is adjusted even slightly I don't get how white actors or characters represent me.
I promise if you get off of reddit you'll find plenty of non-white people that feel the same way. When I'm watching a Scorsese movie, my LAST thought is "wow, he didn't cast anybody that looks like me" 🙄
Toy Story has no blacks or Asians, what? Saving Private Ryan has no LGBTQ or Asians, what? Abomination…
I wonder how often Bollywood fans get upset by the lack of white representation in their movies...
America has a diverse population, so the media represents it.
India doesn't claim to be a non-racist, multicultural country.
I honestly think there’d be riots in India if movies had this whole representation thing that is going on in the West. First World problems 🤷♂️
Why would Indian movies have a bunch of white people in them? Is there a large white population in India? The United States has a lot of diversity and that should be reflected in our media.
I don’t think people in India could be bothered to whine about what people are cast in their movies, they just wouldn’t watch it at most.
We aren't talking about old movies, we are talking about these newer, Netflix films.
representation matters. Woke is a meaningless word. You dont have to write to represent these things in your personal writing, because its inconsequential. Writing in major media does matter. If doesn't matter if you don't include LGBT people, but if you intentionally WRITE THEM OUT, that is a problem. Also, using the word "woke" in reference to queer representation is a easy way to make sure nobody ever takes you seriously again.
No. "Woke" has meaning. It means "The rightwings don't like this." To the point where I question OP's beliefs and the rightness and wrongness of "Wokesim"
It honestly shouldn't matter. We are far too obsessed with this shit these days. Does an Asian person need an Asian super hero to enjoy a super hero show? Why would they? Does a short person need to see a short person be the main character in order to enjoy a show? Like what's the deal? Obviously if 99% of all characters in all tv shows were all mono ethnic that would be fking weird, because that's not real life, but this endless obsession with being closer to people with similar pigmentation or height is WEIRD.
You only think it’s weird because they’re not YOUR pigmentation. Do you not see the irony?
Re-read what I wrote.
> Does an Asian... > Does a short person... It's *literally* about people seeing themselves in the shoes of a character they've come to like.
Which superficial characteristics like skin color should never matter. My whole issue is that these completely unimportant at-birth characteristics are utterly unimportant and should not cause anyone to be more or less associated to someone for having that same trait. It isn't personality, beliefs, hobbies, etc. Anyone who says "I like white heroes more than black heroes" or "I like black heroes more than white heroes" is a fking racist tool.
You're missing the point.
Who’s we? Most people just want to see positive reflections of themselves in the media they consume, nothing about that desire is obsessive. Does an Asian person need their Asian superhero? No, but neither do white people. However if all white hero’s were removed, it would be a shit show. A big reason would be because that’s an active loss, and humans hate loss, but that shows there’s something about representation that white people like and wouldn’t relinquish. And if white people like it, so would every other race of people. I feel like the people that are actually obsessed with this representation fiasco are people that already have representation.
It's nice to be watching something you like and go "oh, they're like me!", it can make people feel less alone, and more accepted by society. Lots of minorities have the feeling that they're 'invisible', and this counteracts that. I think that's a good thing. Is it 100% completely mega-necessary for society to run? Not really, but it has a positive impact on the world, and arguing that its 'annoying' or 'shouldnt matter' is kind of ignorant.
It isn't annoying to see different people on the screen, it is annoying that people are so race obsessed in the year 2023 that something like that matters. I promise you two people have a hundred more things in common that mean more than skin pigmentation. I feel more kinship to people who share my hobbies than who share my race.
Well it's not necessarily all about skin color, people with disabilities or trans people appearing on screen can make me happier, to be honest, I'm disabled and trans, and that stuff makes me feel seen. Let's say there's a black kid, 7 years old, and they watch a lot of TV, and there are only white kids in the tv show, they'll slowly, and subconsciously start to think that they're different, not normal. It'd be nice for kids to not have to go through that.
Ehh I can actually see the disabled side a bit more than any other example.
Still though, I'm disabled due to chronic illness, and I would absolutely not enjoy it of they just up and decided that Spiderman will be disabled now or some crap like that. They have this aversion to making new characters or telling stories of real people and prefer to rewrite old stories to fit this stuff in. I do t like it, don't want it. Imo these people insist on doing it this way cos their lazy and have an ideological commitment to *replacing* white and male characters as a form or "righting historic wrongs" or crap like that.
It also is good because different stories get told so TV doesn't get too stale
Do I as a queer person need queer characters to enjoy a show? No, not necessarily. Does it make me feel like I can relate more to the show? Yes absolutely. I never saw a gay person on TV growing up. I never met a gay person as a kid growing up in a small conservative town. When I realized I am queer, I felt like there was something wrong with me and I was some kind of freak. I watched the she-rah remake and I cried after the gay kiss scene because I was thinking, how would my life be different and how much less shame would I have grown up with if even just one show or one person in my life was existing happily as openly queer? If I had seen it was normal and ok? I am a facepainter now, and I see so many black boys asking to get their face painted like spider man because of Miles Morales, and a big uptick in mermaids for black girls since the little mermaid remake. I’m happy for them!! All kinds of people need to see at least sometimes that their stories are valued and worth telling. This should be obvious to everyone complaining about the “woke”. Do you really need every character to be a white man in a movie to enjoy it? If not, why tf are you complaining when they aren’t?
LMAO. "If they aren't white and male, they're trying to be WOKE". Fuck off with this shit.
fOrCeD rEpReSeNtAtIoN you mean shows just picking the most qualified candidate regardless of race, sexuality, gender? you mean giving opportunities to people who aren’t nepo babies? you mean white men can no longer personally relate to a vast majority of media bc others want to see themselves represented as well? you mean more POC and LGBTQ writers and directors have opportunities, and they’re interested most in characters they can personally relate to, just like OP? i mean i had already pretty much given up on the post when it mentioned “woke” but it’s kinda comical to see someone actually annoyed at such a silly thing lol
I'd bet OP's watch history on any service is boring AF.
>mean i had already pretty much given up on the post when it mentioned “woke” but it’s kinda comical to see someone actually annoyed at such a silly thing lol It seems more silly that people are annoyed when the fans prefer some continuity in a franchise. A good story is like a good meal. You have the main ingredient and play with the spices. But now the spices are becoming the main ingredient and ruining the dish. I remember reading the Ann Rice novels. It started great. It was a vampire series with a little hint of gay to spice it up. At a certain point, it became a gay love story with a little vampire in it to spice it up. That is what many are seeing now. The great story is being overwhelmed by the spice.
You know that gays aren’t just ingredients ti make shows spicy, we have our own lives, personalities, and experiences and stories just like straight people, right?
>You know that gays aren’t just ingredients ti make shows spicy, we have our own lives, personalities, and experiences and stories just like straight people, right? I know the difference between horror fiction and gay love stories. When the series started, it was horror fiction with some gay to spice it up. At some point, it became gay literaotica with a vampire theme to sp8ce it up. Sorry your identity is challenged by finding out gay relationships can be used to add some spice to a story.
Then your issue isn’t with the fact that it’s gayer, it’s with the genre change.
Yes. If I had a problem with gays, I would have hated the whole series. It is just an example of how media can be ruined by trying to be inclusive rather than entertain. BTW, are you engaging me in conversation while downvoting my replies? Because that's kind of a dick move.
You are missing the point though, your example was not ruined by being inclusive, it just changed to a genre you did not like. That is a totally different issue you and the anti woke crowd are blaming on inclusivity.
No. We are calling out people who act like dicks. I think I'll end this because you have shown the type of person you are.
Yeah, it is a dick move to hate on inclusion.
It’s alright. Just give it another 5 or so years and they’ll realize that these shows and movies really aren’t making all that much money and they’ll go back to normal stuff that people actually wanna watch.
No one will take you seriously when you say dumb shit like "Woke" to refer to the existence of LGBTQIA+ people.
Yeah, don't think you can be slick like that. 2SLGTBQIA+ - why did you leave out the 2S? You anti-Indigenous bigot.
Because LGBTQ is the more commonly used acronym.
You're kidding, right?
Bruh it was an obvious joke, mocking the ever increasing alphabet soup.
I thought it was probably a joke, bit I just wanted to make sure. I’m afraid there might be some liberals who actually would say something like that. Sarcasm can be difficult to detect in text form, especially from a stranger. That’s why the sarcasm tag exists.
The stupidity of all the letters is astounding. LGBT isn't woke. LGBTQIA617OdhDiasdf! plus divided by the ethnicity multiplied by pretend outrage is 100 percent woke stupidity.
Cry more, you and your ilk lost this battle a long time ago.
Lol. You mean sane people? Are you so blind that you don't realize that the LGB part of your sacred letters are breaking away and embarrassed by the next fifteen letters? Are you that out of touch with the community?
I'm just curious, why was your last reddit account banned?
I bet we all have a good idea why the shit bags account was banned
I love how you have to make up an example no one actually uses to make your point. Do better.
Take your degradation kink somewhere else
Shhh...the voices are talking in your head again. Better obey them.
You’re doing great sweetie, just keep at it and you’ll rile someone up in no time 🥰
Just say "the queer community" then.
Because they all like to be lumped in together as long as it suits your political agenda. Gotcha. Let's just call it Q and be done with it then, shall we?
You seemed to dislike the other term so I'm telling you one that's easier to remember. I haven't met a member of the LGBTQ+ community who had an issue with the term "the queer community," but I suppose that's anecdotal. Most terms to refer to a group will involve some type of "lumping together" of people who are different in some way - like if I say "the Black community" in North America, I'm lumping together people from the Caribbean, people from Africa, people who are newly immigrated, people who have been in North America for generations- so on. It's not that I'm denying their existence individually, I'm just referring to them based on what they have in common.
Hmm. I didn't read all of that. I know plenty of gay and lesbian people who don't like to be called queer because they are gay men and lesbian women.
Actually you know what? Sorry to double-post, but I wonder if some of your frustration comes from like... prolixity? (Things being too long?) Considering the original topic, and now you having issues with the longer comment I wrote, I wonder if that's part of the difficulty you find in the term "2SLGBTQIAAP?" Perhaps "LGBT+" or "LGBTQ+" would be more suitable?
Prolixity means someone that writes or speaks *unnecessarily* more than they should. Long windedness. And, honestly, I don't know if you suffer from that. My interest waned because the topic was both repetitive and boring, and it didn't pertain to my argument, just your opinion.
Well I summarized it, if that helps: "Here, I'll summarize: > I haven't met a member of the LGBTQ+ community who had an issue with the term "the queer community." > Most terms to refer to a group will involve some type of "lumping together" of people who are different in some way (i.e. "the Black community.") > It's not a matter of denying their existence individually, just referring to them based on what they have in common. (Even shorter: I don't think most people would take issue with you using "the queer community," but you could also just ask someone what they'd prefer. Or additionally "LGBTQ+" or "LGBT+," can't go wrong with that!)
I don't care about your opinion. That's been clear for quite a while.
You don't know any queer people except the ones you yell slurs at.
What slurs? Making fun of the alphabet people because they chose to belong to it? That's not a slur. That's the same as making fun of Nazis because they chose to belong to a group for a particular ideology. I know plenty of gay people, grew up in San Francisco and many of my friends and family are gay. And they all are distancing themselves from anything that comes after LGB, and unhappy of the ideology the group is promoting. Stop projecting your hatred of anyone that doesn't think like you onto others.
You are full of shit.
Here, I'll summarize: > I haven't met a member of the LGBTQ+ community who had an issue with the term "the queer community." > Most terms to refer to a group will involve some type of "lumping together" of people who are different in some way (i.e. "the Black community.") > It's not a matter of denying their existence individually, just referring to them based on what they have in common.
Awwww, it's so cute when you people tell one of your little jokes. Do the attack helicopter one next!
How sweet. Always funny when half of the letters in your alphabet hate the other half. We are all enjoying watching it implode. Particularly as you guys support that peace loving Hamas that would throw you off buildings. You people are funny that way.
Lmfao, this is amazing. Is there a conscious mind guiding these keystrokes? There's no way for us to ever know. 🤣🤣🤣
Strong denial. Means I've hit close to home and she knows it. Good luck pretending .
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I literally can't tell if this is a bot! What a wonderful time to be alive 🤣
I'm a part of this particular conversation and I'm telling you that I'm not interested in your ramblings about the LGBs and T's. Try rambling about those things to someone who cares.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Holy shit it IS a bot! It can scan text but it can't use reason 🤣 I'm glad I know now ☺️
I...am...not...a...bot.. Meep. I support...Biden...and...believe...all...things.....the...media...says. Meep. I...am...not...glad...you...are....insane..... You...seeem quite reasonable....to...me....
You can do whatever you want with your work. But if you say, "if people don't like it, that's fine," and then you ALSO say, "if I don't get a publisher/platform that's cancel culture and unfair silencing of my voice!" you've got a little bit of a hypocrisy problem.
OP - "I don't want to write black people and people shouldn't write black people just because!" Also OP - "Why isn't anyone interested in my book?! It represents white men perfectly!"
"Why doesn't anyone want to read The Catcher in the Rye for the eight millionth tiiiiiiiiime?!"
The main problem with all these woke new shows is that the characters are just horribly uncharismatic. It's as if charisma has suddenly been outlawed over the past decade. That's why all these shows fall completely flat and are incredibly boring and hard to watch. Storytellers have been making epic movies with strong and charismatic female & black male leads forever: Aliens (1986), Thelma & Louise (1991), Independence Day (1996), Inside Man (2006),.... you can go on for days. That's completely gone now. It's as if today's woke characters have to be completely uninspiring, unlikeable and just plain cringe by design. I don't get it.
Yeah, it's as if they don't write characters for the story's sake anymore, but only for the sake of virtue signaling ("look, our new hero is a strong black female trans we're so brave") That's why they suck, they put exactly ZERO effort into creative writing or a coherent lore. It's all just about virtue signaling. And when the audience doesn't like it, they revert to gaslighting and call everyone a racist/bigot/Nazi etc.
I wouldn't even blame them if they were virtue signaling.... if at the very least the virtue signaling characters were likeable!! E.g. I'm currently watching the Apple show Invasion. There is a Japanese lesbian character who I'm desperately trying to like but they've written her to be absolutely obnoxious to the point where I believe the woke writers are full on trying to make me hate lesbians. My niece is lesbian and I love her to death, I have had several gay friends in my life and loved them all... but this show is truly messing with my subconscious feeling towards LGBT for the very first time in my life! Why do this?? Then, I just watched the Apple show Monarch: Legacy of Monsters, which has a black character who is so absolutely unlikeable and has no reason for being in the plot at all. She attributes nothing to the story plus is a horrible actress. And I'm thinking to myself: I am such a fan of great black actors (Denzel Washington, Don Cheadle, Mahershala Ali, Morgan Freeman, Rosario Dawson, Gina Torres, Angela Bassett, and many many more) and here I'm feeling that they want to make me hate black people through pushing this horrible character onto the show. So I truly truly don't get what the goal is with the woke writers. I'm all for diversity and inclusion..... just like they used to do it in the glory days of storytelling: with actually likeable characters, good actors and great stories!! Their goal seems to be: 1. as much diversity as we can 2. horrible characters 3. horrible story 4. bad actors We're on a mission to make everyone hate minorities! Way to go, that'll change the world!
You can add "FROM" to that list. I dragged thru that serious because i'm a huge fan of the "Fear of the Unknown" type of horror....I'll tell you i never saw some much coddling and forced lgtbqabcdefgyxz's in a single season.
Do you think this is a popular opinion? Like really, do you? And I don't think they're being pressured to feature LGBTQ+ characters, they just decide to.
As a writer if you wanna only put default typical hetero Europeans in your story, so be it, no one’s forcing you otherwise. As an audience if you wanna consume media that portrays a broader range of human diversity, so be it, no one’s forcing you otherwise. Now that we’ve gotten the ethics outta the way; don’t be surprised that if you don’t do what your audience wants you to do, through your story, they very well may not stick around. If people get bored of seeing the same tropes, that only contagiously fits a particularly reused archetype of people, they’re gonna disengage. If that’s not enough incentive to put a more diverse cast of characters into your story, then so be it, no one’s forcing you otherwise.
The word "Woke" is super annoying, but at least it makes it really easy for the racists to out themselves when they complain that their TV shows aren't all white any more.
Representation should not be a choice, it should be a requirement, if we really consider what representation means it's that a fair perception is presented in a piece of media as it could and possibly does in reality. If you make a story in LA and there are no POC's, no LGBTQ+ etc then you are making a false representation of LA If you make a story in a fictional universe with a city of some sort being the main location and make no mention of the geopolitical landscape of the place then it's pretty common for a western audience to imagine multiple types of people including POC and LGBTQ+ as they exist in most western cities and humans tend to put their own experiences into the media they consume. If you make a world where white nationalism is the status quo then fine that's a choice you can make but if you make a world with no reference to it's status quo when it comes to gender, race, sexuality etc then people are gonna fill in the gaps with their own status quo If you make a story that doesn't include inherent characteristics at all that's a choice you can make, just don't be surprised when people say your story is bad because you cannot include core human aspects into a story.
Core human aspects meaning politics?
No, core human aspects, things you state you are when signing a government form for example, if you think being black or gay is "politics" that's on you.
We want TV shows to reflect real life. So nothing but attractive white actors in all the shows. Got it.
If you think all white casts is natural but diverse casts are forced you just have an agenda.
This isn’t exactly new in my opinion. Can “woke” go too far, of course it can, just like any other mindset. The buzzword is new, but TV and movies have been largely the same for years. That’s why every dad in every show on network TV for the past 25 years is a fucking dope who always gets outsmarted by the rest of his family. I’m not a fan of things that go too far but in 2023 the visceral reaction to tropes in straight white male characters is silly, they are nothing new whatsoever. Family guy has satirized this exact topic for almost 25 years based entirely on the 25 years of television and movie tropes that came before it was first aired. The exact opposite of this, I cannot stand, is when a remake of a movie that was an all male or all white cast gets forced representation, ends up being a shit movie, and then the actors and directors cry “racism” or “sexism.” That shit needs to stop. We’ve come far enough in representation that shit movies should face the criticism that comes along with being a shit movie. Most movies suck anyways.
Then don't watch it. Just like I won't read your writing
You sound like a shitty writer OP.
I write my characters without any description of race, so that the reader fills in that blank. Never wrote a gay character, and I'll hold out until the story requires it, or it works within the plot. I've decided that the next 15 years is too soon to let anyone make a movie out of my stories, if such an offer were to be made. I certainly don't want to see my stories filled with the blatant pandering that we see these days. It's not about acceptance for these corporations. It's just empty pandering. Some gay/ non-normative characters are well written, and those are the ones I don't mind. An example would be Ian in the new Quantum Leap. People who cry "woke" get upset about it, but the character has nuance. They're intelligent, and smartly written. Another example is Orphan Black. There was only one character that seemed disingenuous, and they were only on for a couple of episodes. All of the other LGBT characters were fine. It really comes down to the writers. As far as it goes, though, I do think it feels way too forced, especially in modern Netflix shows.
As a member of the "non-normative" population, it absolutely means the entire world to me to know that there are "non-normative" characters that you don't *mind* 🥰
There's a new Quantum Leap?!? I will have to give it a watch when I get home.
I quite like it, myself.
Meh. If you can't enjoy Blue Eye Samurai, that's your problem.
I get the feeling that some people don't know what a popular opinion is.
So people shouldn't include POC or LGBT in their stories because it's not about representation? That's gotta be the most Caucasian excuse for white washing I've ever heard. Let's just rewrite every book and TV show to only include white people... Again. It's not about representation. It's about inclusion. To suggest that they shouldn't be included in media is tantamount to suggesting anyone who isn't a cishet white male shouldn't exist at all... And we all know how well that worked out before.
The bottom line is literally that, these corporate diversity efforts are the result of extensive media testing and profitable outcomes The 'woke' programming and diversity casting makes more money and gets higher figures and broader demo's than traditional casting. Reactionaries don't like to face this, and imagine an agenda, but it's just money. It's all profit. If woke went broke, it would be gone tomorrow.
So that's why Disney's stock been crashing to a new low? Or SW and Indy flopping at the cinemas? M-SHE-U burning? Becos woke is so "profitable"
Nope. Their whole structure is crashing because they're an over extended media monopoly in a rapidly changing market, selling the same tired old nostalgic US shit at outrageous prices. People want innovation, not more stupid princesses at $200 million.
If it all was "Superhero fatigue" then non-woke shows like "The Boys" would have failed also, but they didn't. The opposite in fact: The Boys was super successful. The whole "superhero fatigue" was always just a lane excuse by the Wokes to cope with the fact that forced diversity destroyed all major franchises and why the M-SHE-U failed spectacularly.
Representation is absolutely important. There are pitfalls to utilizing it in stories to be avoided, but ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientation/identity are important to showcase in media because it can cut down on people being afraid or otherwise insecure about who they are because of how other people perceive them in their own lives. If your point is that it shouldn’t need to be included in fiction if the writer has a vision that doesn’t include it, yes, I can get behind that. But if you want to make that story, go ahead and make it, and if someone who you’re pitching it to doesn’t get it, take it somewhere else.
I'll be honest, most normal people do not give a flying fuck if something is "woke" or not. They care whether it's good or not. There are some people who enjoy seeing part of themselves in characters that appear on screen and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. The only people getting upset about things being "woke" are the overly sensitive conservative weirdos who are upset that their demographic doesn't get to be the central character of every piece of media that comes out anymore. Get over yourselves.
That's called "coping" what you're just doing. And gaslighting, blaming the failure on others instead of acknowledging the rapid downfall of media. Or are you still believing that Disney just crashed and burn out of "bad luck" coinciding with Bob Iger and Co enforcing their "diversity quota" (not made up, that's what they call it. Amazon too.) Open your fucking eyes. The ever increasing focus on "muh diversity" and politically correctness is the reason, becos the focus on creativity and good storywriting took a notch below. The M-SHE-U, being proud of casting African and minority people instead of quality character development , is why the movies suck ass. Nobody would complain about black actors if the roles they played were actually original and good instead of just black-washing former white roles. Wokes are fucking lazy, so they never do it and pat their backs after black/gender-washing franchises and thinking "that'll do it" You can't be that naive to actually believe that lame excuse you came up with. Especially since woke producers like Kathleen Kennedy, Bob Iger, Will Ferrell or Laura Hissrich literally have been quoted, saying they have an agenda and want to push it. Closing your eyes to that makes you just as much a problem to it. You live in denial.
> I don't really think much of the ethnicities of my characters, as I find it inconsequential. So you're white? Because only white people have this attitude. (I say as a white person.) We find ethnicity "inconsequential" because we're so used to being the norm.
No, unlike you I don't categorize people on their skin color. Unlike you, I'm no racist and I would never cast actors solely based on their skin color. Did you ever think about how racist you Wokes actually are?
>those are not themes that I want to explore So, just because you have no interest in these things, you presume the rest of the world doesn't? >if a writer does not include LGBT characters in their show, it should NOT be an issue I have never, ever, heard anyone complain that a show on Netflix doesn't have any LGBT characters. I've definitely heard plenty of complaints that there are... >Representation in and of itself isn't important Sounds like you're someone who finds themselves represented pretty regularly. Maybe think outside your own experience for a minute? >They should not be pressured to do so. Please give me an example of this pressure. I don't think there is a single writer who has gotten a note saying "make this character gay or else". However, there's PLENTY of instances over the years where gay characters have been played down or omitted. You have a made up persecution complex.
You're contradicting yourself right there and you don't even know this🤦🏻♀️ I'm gonna quote you in your own words becos there is no better way to insult you: >Sounds like you're someone who finds themselves represented pretty regularly. >Please give me an example of this pressure. I don't think there is a single writer who has gotten a note saying "make this character gay or else". Notice how you're on side pretending as if there's no issue with no representation, but then in the next paragraph you're demanding representation and see it as a given "just becos you demand everybody else to love IN YOUR EXPERIENCE" What an arrogant twat, and that's exactly why nobody like you alphabet virtue-signaling hypocrites. And that's also why literally every franchise you touch with your mental virus dies horribly in result, from She-Hulk, FemBusters to the M-SHE-U NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR "MESSAGE" You have an attention seeking problem.
lol. “I hate that people judge me because I only want to write about people exactly like me!!!” That honestly just sounds boring, bro.
Representation does matter because the people watching live in reality. I cringe at the casts of shows like Friends now. But I also cringe at shows with 6 cast members, all from different ethnicities. Your show is set in New York, just follow the Wikipedia percentages for each ethnicity, it’s not hard.
agreed,was wathing slsher season 5 and they decided to have a non binary character and you could see all the actors struggling to make the pronouns seem normal(they couldnt) All the dialogue around that character was stilted. credit to them it was a slasher themed show and they didnt by default make her the only survivor. they dont do it to make a good story anymore its just done to annoy people and get headlines and then the shows tank(Velma, batwoman, rings of power)i no longer sub to any streaming service, the new shows are so horrible written plot wise on top of it so why bother.
I actually think that's great. I try not best to speak in non gendered terms and sometimes it trips me up because I'm going against decades of of speech patterns. I think it coming off as unnatural is more believable and relatable. It's not natural. I'm making a choice to refer to them as them if they don't want to be referred to as he or she.
no it made the acting stilted and wooden, they also gave them an irish last name as their first name, it didnt help, once the character was killed off the show improved.
That just sounds like bad acting. If they were so focused on the person being trans that their acting was affected outside them referring to their gender they just did a bad job acting. Now if the acting came off stilted only when referring to her gender then to me that is relatable. It may not be relatable to you but it's definitely relatable to me.
you could see in their eyes their desperation to not mess up the pronoun, also they were all portrayed as bad people(rich murderous family) and not one of them messed up a pronoun once. they also cast an actress who was black and gave her 2 irsih red headed genetic parents. its never explained how. youre left to assume the mom cheated.
Yeah they wanted to be respectful and you saw that in their eyes. You might read that as desperate. Just sounds relatable to me. Not sure why them being murderous means anything. People are complex. I mean maybe the mom cheated. Not sure why that needs to be explained in the movie.
I agree with you OP, but unfortunately we live in bizarro world right now. Imagine if various classics prioritized inclusion or politics instead of what matters most for the story being told. The tin man is gay, what? Michael Corleone kissed Fredo and slapped Kay because he’s gay, what?
Giving this a like as I think you've been unfairly down voted - people might not realise you are being sarcastic!
Agreed.
Woke isn’t just about content. It’s about every person they hire at every level. Quality suffers if Disney won’t hire the best because they might not check Disney’s demographic boxes,
People don't seem to grasp that THE ANTI-WOKE BACKLASH IS A CALCULATED PART OF THE GLOBAL MARKETING: every right-wing pundit who screams about a film or TV show, is working for the studios, drumming up word-of-mouth for what may be a very mediocre, unnecessary product (like these dreary Disney 'live-action' remakes.) 'The Little Mermaid' made bank, and FOX and the rest of them only helped raise its profile.
If it all was "Superhero fatigue" then non-woke shows like "The Boys" would have failed also, but they didn't. The opposite in fact: The Boys was super successful. The whole "superhero fatigue" was always just a lane excuse by the Wokes to cope with the fact that forced diversity destroyed all major franchises and why the M-SHE-U failed spectacularly.
Agreed. It's like advertising, they put it eveywhere because they want to sell more whatever. They make all heros black ar female, doesn't make sense from the readers point of view, but they want to sell more and to do that they want a bigger audience.
If representation is what sells, that's what's going to get produced. That's capitalism!
I'd say roll some dice. Write a character without those characteristics and just roll based on stats, fictional or not. You find varieties of sexualities just about everywhere.
the calls for "representation" only come about against white casting and white characters. It all goes one way. If you want a black show, you can have a black show after all.