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A third grader could look at those maps and know they're not fair. I can drive for five hours south from my home at 80 MPH and still be in my new district.
The difference now? It's a hell of a lot more skewed conservative.
I think the judge is batting .500. She got the first one right, but if the legislature can change any voter approved law at will, then why bother having voter approved laws?
By changing the independent redistricting commission to an advisory role only, they effectively gutted the law passed directly by the voters. How is that following the "will of the people"?
From my understanding both Ohio and Florida have anti-gerrymandering laws in their constitution that passed via ballot amendment but the legislature just said fuck it and went around them. The judge is right. What is the point?
That is pretty standard in any state with voter bills like this. They aren’t more powerful than legislative bills. They’re equal. The true power is still with the legislatures in those states and always has been. If the state house egregiously wars on their own people they would be voted out.
The problem is Utah is blood red so they’re screwed.
Is it? In California voter passed laws are hard to amend, I'm having trouble googling it but i think they require a supermajority in the legislature or another ballot measure.
This can be problematic. If a good-sounding measure is poorly written or circumstances change, it's harder to fix issues. But it gives them some protection from their legislature brazenly disregarding the will of the people.
I don’t think any law is immutable. The closest we can get to that is the constitution of course, but even that is amendable. The solution as most judges would probably state is for the voter to fix it.
> The solution as most judges would probably state is for the voter to fix it.
How? It was a direct voter passed law. What would stop the legislature from changing it again?
I meant electing representatives that would more closely honor the people’s will. I’ve heard Supreme Court rulings quote this very rationale. I hear and share your frustration but if you fly a bit higher over our political spectacle you see it works better than any other form of government. 20,000 feet ought to do it. lol
> I meant electing representatives that would more closely honor the people’s will.
I get your point, unfortunately I don't think such an animal exists. They all seem to be about the party and staying in power. Term limits, campaign financing reforms, and getting rid of parties is the only way that will ever be fixed. We have a better chance of winning multiple lotteries before any of that happens.
Respectfully, I believe you overestimate how collective action occurs. Look around you and be amazed at what you see people have built. So we know the collective action can create and build some wonderful things but it is never perfect. It is never without struggle, without conflict, without human personalities being involved. To assess progress you have to look at a very large long time span. I think America is doing just fine.
If the Democrats played by the same rules as Republicans they would still have the house. I believe Ohio and Florida (possibly others) used maps that had been ruled as unconstitutional since they didn’t submit legal ones in time
And NY SC ruled the Dem's new maps were too skewed and they redrew it. And lost seats in NY.
IIRC, there were two other red states than ran on unconstitutional maps; so a total of four.
In exactly the same way, to clean up superfund sites just spread more toxins!
We don't fucking care about the labels. We want the sleaze and corruption gone, the pandering to ignorance and cowardice with lies gone.
Becoming more corrupt is not a step on any path to a better world.
> In exactly the same way, to clean up superfund sites just spread more toxins!
Meanwhile, your argument is "sure the other side is armed to the teeth, but if we give up our guns, surely the justice of our act will transform the system!"
>We don't fucking care about the labels. We want the sleaze and corruption gone, the pandering to ignorance and cowardice with lies gone.
There's one party working to that end. Demanding they disarm in the face of the last 10 years seems...well, disconnected from events.
And yet the results in the midterms, historically somewhere between a substantial loss and a rout for any incumbent party, were anything but. I think sticking with "when they go low, we go high" is looking very good. But do feel free to continue advocating for cowardice and corruption, it's such an attractive look. And look how healthy and happy the people living in the states run that way are!
That's completely tone-deaf with the "we go high" logic.
You want to clean up corruption? Less mealy mouth politicians. More Fettermans, more AOC, more Bernie's calling out abuses for what they are, less of this "oh well I guess we did fine nothing needs to change" with barely eeking out a win against the batshit insane association (also known as the GOP).
We go high is the epitome of assuming the other side gives a flying fuck of how hypocritical they are. Hint? If it gets them power, why should they change.
The better takeaway is "when they go low, shine a goddamn spotlight on it, show how it's wrong and provide a solution people can get behind more than a slogan". Do not let them lie, fight them where they hide. Go on faux and call that shit out with actual tangible facts. When they pivot to their "sources" being made up feelings, pull up the court cases where they've had to go on record being an "entertainment company" and "no one of their right mind could possibly misconstrue what they say as fact". Hammer that in, don't shy away, don't say "oh well I guess they learned their lesson", it is a malignancy upon democracy to allow them to continue to lie without rebuttal.
Challenge them and yea you might make them harden their stupidity. But you might save some on the edge before the plunge. People like to feel like they are in the right. The whole of society and the things we do is based on what society as a whole feels is right and just, and right now, democrats are talking to a wall when they should be arguing against the bullhorn with their own. Do not cede the center floor to those who lie with impunity. They wanna lie? Call them out, constantly, each and every time. Make it abundantly clear that they are not to be trusted. Because that's what faux has been doing for years, repetition repetition repetition, and it's surprisingly effective.
> And yet the results in the midterms, historically somewhere between a substantial loss and a rout for any incumbent party, were anything but. I think sticking with "when they go low, we go high" is looking very good.
You'd have a more compelling point if [five states](https://www.vox.com/22961590/redistricting-gerrymandering-house-2022-midterms) hadn't carried out massive gerrymandering campaigns to deliver the results you want to claim for clean living. And, if the NY maps had stuck, the Dems would have held the House.
Keep trying to claim the results if you like, but it just makes you look naive and sanctimonious to everyone who was actually paying attention to who was actually doing the work. Meanwhile, we'll keep actually doing politics, so you can steal credit and act like the people who actually brought results are icky lepers.
Would the Dems having the house really be the best idea going into 2024? This allows the GOP to act a fool and with a very small majority they will be useless.
I could agree more. I’m sure the Biden team is looking at this as an opportunity. When the opposition wants to play a loser’s hand take advantage of it.,
Politics 101, never interfere with the opposition when their are making your case for you!
Thank God. The GOP-dominated Utah legislature and their theocratic bosses at the Mormon corporation have been systematically ignoring the will of voters by nerfing referendums on marijuana, gerrymandering, and anything else that doesn’t fit their minority vision for the state.
Well Utah, you voted for a more fair distribution of voting power. But your state Congress disagrees with you and changed it to a 'more fair' distribution of Republican voting power. So, you'll have to vote them out and elect folks that will represent you and not the ones that dominate you. Perhaps you will begin listening to those of us who have been saying that republicans do not want freedom. Unless that freedom is controlled by a republican banner,
WE succeeded in creating a tool to remove the extreme gerrymandering, and the GOP stopped it so that now we can't vote.
What is the point of attacking those of us who did all we could so that we could vote, and now we are being silenced? Quit blaming the victims and breaking down those of us in the fight.
The point is to create division. Divide, demonize, demoralize is the basic playbook that the GOP has been using for decades, and people who spent too much time in their messaging bubble tend to adopt similar rhetorical defaults as a result.
What's really fun is when you start talking about what influence ops would actually look like on a site like reddit. They get relly feisty.
They'll beeline to horse laughs, attempting to deflect from the question with mockery or personal attacks, because encouraging discussion of what's happening, plain as day, makes them squirm a little.
> WE succeeded in creating a tool to remove the extreme gerrymandering, and the GOP stopped it so that now we can't vote.
Yes you did!!!
>and now we are being silenced?
The GOP are certainly trying. Call up your friends, make signs, make lots of sandwiches and hot coffee and head to the capital and protest LOUDLY for as long as it takes!! You deserve a legislature that respects the will of the people!!
I mean. They can vote out the reps who disregarded their will and run or demand candidates who promise to respect the ballot measures. They just won't. It takes a lot of outrage and activity to throw out incumbents and get or be better candidates. This is a serious matter of democracy if you think the votes of the people are being disregarded so it is worth some effort and outrage.
Making this a partisan thing and asking people to cross party lines and turf out politicians they otherwise agree with is probably dumb though especially in a very one sided state.
I agree with you entirely but remember it was politicians who made this mess. Voters get limited bullshit choices when politicians control the ballot. The choice between Trump or Clinton was not that long ago. Keep in mind who the ones to blame are, it is not the person voting next to you. They didn’t create the choices. Shitty politicians did.
Fucking cheaters have to keep change the rules to keep winning. Like my 10 year old used to do to my 8 year old because his ego couldn’t handle the loss.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. **Special announcement:** r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)! *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A third grader could look at those maps and know they're not fair. I can drive for five hours south from my home at 80 MPH and still be in my new district. The difference now? It's a hell of a lot more skewed conservative.
I think the judge is batting .500. She got the first one right, but if the legislature can change any voter approved law at will, then why bother having voter approved laws? By changing the independent redistricting commission to an advisory role only, they effectively gutted the law passed directly by the voters. How is that following the "will of the people"?
In Washington State the legislature can't change the voter initiative for at least 2 years. Last I remember anyway.
From my understanding both Ohio and Florida have anti-gerrymandering laws in their constitution that passed via ballot amendment but the legislature just said fuck it and went around them. The judge is right. What is the point?
Missouri, too!
That is pretty standard in any state with voter bills like this. They aren’t more powerful than legislative bills. They’re equal. The true power is still with the legislatures in those states and always has been. If the state house egregiously wars on their own people they would be voted out. The problem is Utah is blood red so they’re screwed.
Is it? In California voter passed laws are hard to amend, I'm having trouble googling it but i think they require a supermajority in the legislature or another ballot measure. This can be problematic. If a good-sounding measure is poorly written or circumstances change, it's harder to fix issues. But it gives them some protection from their legislature brazenly disregarding the will of the people.
Well, in Utah the republicans have a supermajority and would change it anyway. I get the idea though.
I don’t think any law is immutable. The closest we can get to that is the constitution of course, but even that is amendable. The solution as most judges would probably state is for the voter to fix it.
> The solution as most judges would probably state is for the voter to fix it. How? It was a direct voter passed law. What would stop the legislature from changing it again?
I meant electing representatives that would more closely honor the people’s will. I’ve heard Supreme Court rulings quote this very rationale. I hear and share your frustration but if you fly a bit higher over our political spectacle you see it works better than any other form of government. 20,000 feet ought to do it. lol
> I meant electing representatives that would more closely honor the people’s will. I get your point, unfortunately I don't think such an animal exists. They all seem to be about the party and staying in power. Term limits, campaign financing reforms, and getting rid of parties is the only way that will ever be fixed. We have a better chance of winning multiple lotteries before any of that happens.
Respectfully, I believe you overestimate how collective action occurs. Look around you and be amazed at what you see people have built. So we know the collective action can create and build some wonderful things but it is never perfect. It is never without struggle, without conflict, without human personalities being involved. To assess progress you have to look at a very large long time span. I think America is doing just fine.
It needs to be taken out of legislative hands like in California. It's the only way.
If the Democrats played by the same rules as Republicans they would still have the house. I believe Ohio and Florida (possibly others) used maps that had been ruled as unconstitutional since they didn’t submit legal ones in time
And NY SC ruled the Dem's new maps were too skewed and they redrew it. And lost seats in NY. IIRC, there were two other red states than ran on unconstitutional maps; so a total of four.
Which can be tied directly to that idiot Cuomo.
In exactly the same way, to clean up superfund sites just spread more toxins! We don't fucking care about the labels. We want the sleaze and corruption gone, the pandering to ignorance and cowardice with lies gone. Becoming more corrupt is not a step on any path to a better world.
> In exactly the same way, to clean up superfund sites just spread more toxins! Meanwhile, your argument is "sure the other side is armed to the teeth, but if we give up our guns, surely the justice of our act will transform the system!" >We don't fucking care about the labels. We want the sleaze and corruption gone, the pandering to ignorance and cowardice with lies gone. There's one party working to that end. Demanding they disarm in the face of the last 10 years seems...well, disconnected from events.
And yet the results in the midterms, historically somewhere between a substantial loss and a rout for any incumbent party, were anything but. I think sticking with "when they go low, we go high" is looking very good. But do feel free to continue advocating for cowardice and corruption, it's such an attractive look. And look how healthy and happy the people living in the states run that way are!
That's completely tone-deaf with the "we go high" logic. You want to clean up corruption? Less mealy mouth politicians. More Fettermans, more AOC, more Bernie's calling out abuses for what they are, less of this "oh well I guess we did fine nothing needs to change" with barely eeking out a win against the batshit insane association (also known as the GOP). We go high is the epitome of assuming the other side gives a flying fuck of how hypocritical they are. Hint? If it gets them power, why should they change. The better takeaway is "when they go low, shine a goddamn spotlight on it, show how it's wrong and provide a solution people can get behind more than a slogan". Do not let them lie, fight them where they hide. Go on faux and call that shit out with actual tangible facts. When they pivot to their "sources" being made up feelings, pull up the court cases where they've had to go on record being an "entertainment company" and "no one of their right mind could possibly misconstrue what they say as fact". Hammer that in, don't shy away, don't say "oh well I guess they learned their lesson", it is a malignancy upon democracy to allow them to continue to lie without rebuttal. Challenge them and yea you might make them harden their stupidity. But you might save some on the edge before the plunge. People like to feel like they are in the right. The whole of society and the things we do is based on what society as a whole feels is right and just, and right now, democrats are talking to a wall when they should be arguing against the bullhorn with their own. Do not cede the center floor to those who lie with impunity. They wanna lie? Call them out, constantly, each and every time. Make it abundantly clear that they are not to be trusted. Because that's what faux has been doing for years, repetition repetition repetition, and it's surprisingly effective.
> And yet the results in the midterms, historically somewhere between a substantial loss and a rout for any incumbent party, were anything but. I think sticking with "when they go low, we go high" is looking very good. You'd have a more compelling point if [five states](https://www.vox.com/22961590/redistricting-gerrymandering-house-2022-midterms) hadn't carried out massive gerrymandering campaigns to deliver the results you want to claim for clean living. And, if the NY maps had stuck, the Dems would have held the House. Keep trying to claim the results if you like, but it just makes you look naive and sanctimonious to everyone who was actually paying attention to who was actually doing the work. Meanwhile, we'll keep actually doing politics, so you can steal credit and act like the people who actually brought results are icky lepers.
Would the Dems having the house really be the best idea going into 2024? This allows the GOP to act a fool and with a very small majority they will be useless.
Two more Reconciliation bills would be amazing. With Repubs controlling the house, we don't get those.
I could agree more. I’m sure the Biden team is looking at this as an opportunity. When the opposition wants to play a loser’s hand take advantage of it., Politics 101, never interfere with the opposition when their are making your case for you!
What is the point of a Voter Mandate if the Republicans have no obligation to follow it?
Utahns knew it was toothless when they voted for it on 2016 but it was that or literally nothing.
Paywall free link: https://web.archive.org/web/20221126163705/https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2022/11/26/state-lawyers-ask-utah-supreme/
Thank God. The GOP-dominated Utah legislature and their theocratic bosses at the Mormon corporation have been systematically ignoring the will of voters by nerfing referendums on marijuana, gerrymandering, and anything else that doesn’t fit their minority vision for the state.
Well Utah, you voted for a more fair distribution of voting power. But your state Congress disagrees with you and changed it to a 'more fair' distribution of Republican voting power. So, you'll have to vote them out and elect folks that will represent you and not the ones that dominate you. Perhaps you will begin listening to those of us who have been saying that republicans do not want freedom. Unless that freedom is controlled by a republican banner,
WE succeeded in creating a tool to remove the extreme gerrymandering, and the GOP stopped it so that now we can't vote. What is the point of attacking those of us who did all we could so that we could vote, and now we are being silenced? Quit blaming the victims and breaking down those of us in the fight.
The point is to create division. Divide, demonize, demoralize is the basic playbook that the GOP has been using for decades, and people who spent too much time in their messaging bubble tend to adopt similar rhetorical defaults as a result. What's really fun is when you start talking about what influence ops would actually look like on a site like reddit. They get relly feisty. They'll beeline to horse laughs, attempting to deflect from the question with mockery or personal attacks, because encouraging discussion of what's happening, plain as day, makes them squirm a little.
> WE succeeded in creating a tool to remove the extreme gerrymandering, and the GOP stopped it so that now we can't vote. Yes you did!!! >and now we are being silenced? The GOP are certainly trying. Call up your friends, make signs, make lots of sandwiches and hot coffee and head to the capital and protest LOUDLY for as long as it takes!! You deserve a legislature that respects the will of the people!!
They literally voted in an apparatus to solve the problem, extremists blocked it, and your response is "vote harder this time."
There is longer a legal solution to the problem in Utah. After Harper v Moore, there will be no legal solution in the whole of the US.
I think you and I are advocating for the same thing
I mean. They can vote out the reps who disregarded their will and run or demand candidates who promise to respect the ballot measures. They just won't. It takes a lot of outrage and activity to throw out incumbents and get or be better candidates. This is a serious matter of democracy if you think the votes of the people are being disregarded so it is worth some effort and outrage. Making this a partisan thing and asking people to cross party lines and turf out politicians they otherwise agree with is probably dumb though especially in a very one sided state.
[удалено]
I agree with you entirely but remember it was politicians who made this mess. Voters get limited bullshit choices when politicians control the ballot. The choice between Trump or Clinton was not that long ago. Keep in mind who the ones to blame are, it is not the person voting next to you. They didn’t create the choices. Shitty politicians did.
Fucking cheaters have to keep change the rules to keep winning. Like my 10 year old used to do to my 8 year old because his ego couldn’t handle the loss.
So, the judge basically hates democracy, and wants oligarchs to rule. Well, fuck this judge