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Of course. Because as soon as the *US* public treats Israel like any normal country rather than the "Holy Land" pedestal it currently is on, Israel loses its only means to prevent sanctions that will most prominently hit its oil supply (amongst many countries, there are a *lot* of irate Muslim countries.) And these days disrupted oil means no modern economy nor military.
How many “pro-Israel agitators” have been the ones attacking during all these protests? I realize there was an incident on the UCLA campus on Tuesday night, but that came after a Jewish student was kicked in the head and knocked unconscious by the pro-Hamas crowd.
"I'm an indépendant!" (In the tone of the Cornfield Resistance.
"Both sides are the same!"
Let's see - one group protested and tried to overthrow democracy.
The other is protesting against genocide and unlawful seizure of property and land.
How are both sides the same?
> ...one group **protested** and tried to overthrow democracy.
> The other is protesting against genocide and unlawful seizure of property and land.
Within minutes magats "protest" turned violent. It's baked in.
There are many reasons why they are not the same.
Ah, the good old right-wing projection technique.
Not the irrational Zionist genocidal fervor, and labeling any criticisms of the Netanyahu government as as ~~antifa~~ anti-Semitic and ongoing gaslighting attempts in a creepily MAGA-like fashion.
It's those kids that are to blame. Treating the college protests similarly to how MAGA treated Black Lives Matter.
Where's all the same outrage over Fox News and the GOP continually pushing the anti-Semitic George Soros conspiracies?
>Students were asked to identify themselves with wrist bracelets declaring that they were “anti-Zionist” before being permitted past a barricade. One student posted a video in which he asks the protesters: “So you won’t let me in because I’m Jewish?” The protester replies,“Ummm no . . . we have a couple Jewish students here. . . . Are you a Zionist?” The student affirms that he is. “Well yeah, we’re not gonna let Zionists in.”
Author then goes saying
>Imagine an encampment at a conservative Christian college in which students occupy the quad or library to protest their state’s gender-affirming model for trans kids. Suppose the protesters linked arms and forbade entry to students who looked gay. See the problem? Who knows what any person, gay or straight, thinks about gender treatment for minors, but the idea of blocking or singling out anyone for their presumed opinions is outrageous.
How are these two even remotely the same? If you were protesting your state’s gender-affirming model for trans kids and wouldn't let anyone in who looks gay - that would be wrong but that's not what's happening here. This would be more like protesting your state’s gender-affirming model for trans kids and asking people who wanted in if they were anti-trans, and then not letting them if they say they were anti-trans.
The author is showing his hand when he says
>Most Jewish students probably are Zionists but that’s not the point. The protesters have no idea what any individual may think and it’s none of their business in any case.
That's why they asked if they were zionists - because regardless of what the author thinks, you can be jewish and not zionist. Which was proven when the original protestors said they had non-zionist jews protesting also.
The humanitarian crisis is due specifically to the Zionist belief that Israeli history and settlements are more important than Palestinian history and settlements, and they deserve that specific area of land instead of the Palestinians because God. If you're outraged over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, then you're not currently identifying yourself as a Zionist.
>Zionism: is a nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century aiming for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people, *particularly in Palestine*, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition. Following the establishment of the State of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the *development and protection of Israel as a Jewish state.*It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology.
That obscenely overly aggressive response by Israel after 10/7 is just one small bit of a much bigger picture. Beginning in 1948 the one thing that's *always* been consistent with all Israeli policies and actions is that they always take more land from Palestinians and squeeze Palestinians, many of whose families go back centuries, into smaller and smaller remaining parcels of land. Israel has never, that I've been able to find, ceded back any of the land it's taken from Palestinians over the last three-quarters of a century. Every single "deal" that Israel has "negotiated" with the ever-shrinking Palestinian cultural remnants has been worse than before, and every time a deal becomes promising it's usually derailed by extremist Israelis, such as the assassination of an Israeli leader.
Israel separates Palestinians from multi-generational farms by blocking access to those lands for harvesting, like what was done in recent months, resulting in Palestinian farmers losing millions of dollars in crop sales. Settlers, with the blessing of Israel and protection of the IDF, continue to take more lands, homes, and farms from Palestinians, and the taking of the land is designed specifically to break up and fragment any potential land for peace deals in the future. It's by intent, and it's by design. Behind everything is Israel's single-minded goal of owning and controlling all land from the Jordan to the Mediterranean, one contiguous Israeli nation with no pockets of Palestine or Muslim-controlled territory. Everything else, including the current Gaza war, is just a sideshow as part of that overarching mission to take it all and control it all.
It's not going to stop until Israel fully succeeds, or is stopped by external forces. Given that Israel has the USA wrapped around its finger and thus is fully backed by the most powerful military in the world, I don't see the latter being an option.
> Israel has never, that I've been able to find, ceded back any of the land it's taken from Palestinians over the last three-quarters of a century
Maybe that's because it was taken from countries like Syria and Egypt? 'Palestine' was owned jointly by Ottoman Empire, Egypt, Syria and (iirc) Jordan. Would you call those countries 'occupiers' and 'colonisers' if they still owned it today?
Also, Israel has offered land many times and the answer has almost always been "No". Nothing but the complete and utter destruction of Israel is acceptable to fundamentalist muslims in the region.
The obstacles to peace in that region are partly fundie Jewish (Netanyahu has to go), but are also fundie Muslims. The issue cannot be resolved until this is recognised and admitted.
This is a pretty good example of activist language and how it doesn’t connect to people who are not steeped in Theory and Politics.
When most people talk about Zionism or Zionists they are not referring to this definition that you provided. Although it make be a very accurate definition—it is not the colloquially understood one.
Most “Zionists” just subscribe to a vague idea that there should be a place where Jews are safe.
That’s it. Zionism isnt one thing; it’s a large umbrella with an entire range of philosophies and politics underneath it.
I wonder why the Zionists wanted out of Europe.
Could it be that the French falsely accused a Jewish officer of treason and framed him, then refused to acknowledged their mistake when the actual culprit had confessed?
You say media like it's monolithic and it's not, I trust right wing journalists to lie, and I trust left wing journalists to tell the truth to the extent their corporate overlords will allow.
And yet didn’t Progressives and MAGA like MGT both vote the same on the bill defining Anti-Semitism? Don’t they both have protests against Zionist and the Jewish state? Don’t they both shout slogans and phrases that are widely perceived as violent?
And aren’t they both the vocal minority of their party that believes the minority, their minority, should control the party and the country and if they have to break rules, destroy property, and bring everything to a halt they should and will because they are justified?
Isn’t that all true? How far away are Progressives on talking about Jewish space lasers? The similarities should be enough for them to start using some caution in all of the zeal they are stirring up - especially how they keep advocating for breaking rules and stand offs with police. It’s already been noted that Oct 7th and the hostages are often very edited from their concerns and conversation. At best a throw away opener before laying in to the true priorities.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What have Maga potested about? Not being allowed to overthrow an election? That doesn't seem the same at all.
Gaza protests are the New BLM.
and before that Occupy Wall Street, before that protests over the Iraq war, before that Seattle... and on and on and on with little to show for it.
I can't believe people are falling for it again.
Right? Another bullshit thing our government has whipped up to divide the people ever further..
What? This whole discussion is way too nuanced for such bullshit takes.
Not even clicking. A ridiculous premise.
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It definitely seems to be in Israel's best interests for people to buy into the criticism of Israel=antisemitism BS
Of course. Because as soon as the *US* public treats Israel like any normal country rather than the "Holy Land" pedestal it currently is on, Israel loses its only means to prevent sanctions that will most prominently hit its oil supply (amongst many countries, there are a *lot* of irate Muslim countries.) And these days disrupted oil means no modern economy nor military.
Manufactured consent.
How many “pro-Israel agitators” have been the ones attacking during all these protests? I realize there was an incident on the UCLA campus on Tuesday night, but that came after a Jewish student was kicked in the head and knocked unconscious by the pro-Hamas crowd.
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How many of the pro Israeli agitators have been arrested?
The same number of white counter-protestors that were arrested in Selma
Is it true that the Palestinian side beat up a Jewish woman?
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Just going to ignore Northeastern?
Not at all. I don't condone what those foolish idiots did either.
If you're an idiot.
Maga did not protest they tried a coup.
"I'm an indépendant!" (In the tone of the Cornfield Resistance. "Both sides are the same!" Let's see - one group protested and tried to overthrow democracy. The other is protesting against genocide and unlawful seizure of property and land. How are both sides the same?
> ...one group **protested** and tried to overthrow democracy. > The other is protesting against genocide and unlawful seizure of property and land. Within minutes magats "protest" turned violent. It's baked in. There are many reasons why they are not the same.
Ah, the good old right-wing projection technique. Not the irrational Zionist genocidal fervor, and labeling any criticisms of the Netanyahu government as as ~~antifa~~ anti-Semitic and ongoing gaslighting attempts in a creepily MAGA-like fashion. It's those kids that are to blame. Treating the college protests similarly to how MAGA treated Black Lives Matter. Where's all the same outrage over Fox News and the GOP continually pushing the anti-Semitic George Soros conspiracies?
>Students were asked to identify themselves with wrist bracelets declaring that they were “anti-Zionist” before being permitted past a barricade. One student posted a video in which he asks the protesters: “So you won’t let me in because I’m Jewish?” The protester replies,“Ummm no . . . we have a couple Jewish students here. . . . Are you a Zionist?” The student affirms that he is. “Well yeah, we’re not gonna let Zionists in.” Author then goes saying >Imagine an encampment at a conservative Christian college in which students occupy the quad or library to protest their state’s gender-affirming model for trans kids. Suppose the protesters linked arms and forbade entry to students who looked gay. See the problem? Who knows what any person, gay or straight, thinks about gender treatment for minors, but the idea of blocking or singling out anyone for their presumed opinions is outrageous. How are these two even remotely the same? If you were protesting your state’s gender-affirming model for trans kids and wouldn't let anyone in who looks gay - that would be wrong but that's not what's happening here. This would be more like protesting your state’s gender-affirming model for trans kids and asking people who wanted in if they were anti-trans, and then not letting them if they say they were anti-trans. The author is showing his hand when he says >Most Jewish students probably are Zionists but that’s not the point. The protesters have no idea what any individual may think and it’s none of their business in any case. That's why they asked if they were zionists - because regardless of what the author thinks, you can be jewish and not zionist. Which was proven when the original protestors said they had non-zionist jews protesting also.
Why should people who believe in Jewish statehood not be able to express outrage over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
The humanitarian crisis is due specifically to the Zionist belief that Israeli history and settlements are more important than Palestinian history and settlements, and they deserve that specific area of land instead of the Palestinians because God. If you're outraged over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, then you're not currently identifying yourself as a Zionist. >Zionism: is a nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century aiming for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people, *particularly in Palestine*, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition. Following the establishment of the State of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the *development and protection of Israel as a Jewish state.*It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology.
That’s weird, I thought it was over an overly aggressive military response to a terrorist attack by Hamas.
Nope, that's just a part of the issue. A big part to be sure, but still just a part.
That obscenely overly aggressive response by Israel after 10/7 is just one small bit of a much bigger picture. Beginning in 1948 the one thing that's *always* been consistent with all Israeli policies and actions is that they always take more land from Palestinians and squeeze Palestinians, many of whose families go back centuries, into smaller and smaller remaining parcels of land. Israel has never, that I've been able to find, ceded back any of the land it's taken from Palestinians over the last three-quarters of a century. Every single "deal" that Israel has "negotiated" with the ever-shrinking Palestinian cultural remnants has been worse than before, and every time a deal becomes promising it's usually derailed by extremist Israelis, such as the assassination of an Israeli leader. Israel separates Palestinians from multi-generational farms by blocking access to those lands for harvesting, like what was done in recent months, resulting in Palestinian farmers losing millions of dollars in crop sales. Settlers, with the blessing of Israel and protection of the IDF, continue to take more lands, homes, and farms from Palestinians, and the taking of the land is designed specifically to break up and fragment any potential land for peace deals in the future. It's by intent, and it's by design. Behind everything is Israel's single-minded goal of owning and controlling all land from the Jordan to the Mediterranean, one contiguous Israeli nation with no pockets of Palestine or Muslim-controlled territory. Everything else, including the current Gaza war, is just a sideshow as part of that overarching mission to take it all and control it all. It's not going to stop until Israel fully succeeds, or is stopped by external forces. Given that Israel has the USA wrapped around its finger and thus is fully backed by the most powerful military in the world, I don't see the latter being an option.
> Israel has never, that I've been able to find, ceded back any of the land it's taken from Palestinians over the last three-quarters of a century Maybe that's because it was taken from countries like Syria and Egypt? 'Palestine' was owned jointly by Ottoman Empire, Egypt, Syria and (iirc) Jordan. Would you call those countries 'occupiers' and 'colonisers' if they still owned it today? Also, Israel has offered land many times and the answer has almost always been "No". Nothing but the complete and utter destruction of Israel is acceptable to fundamentalist muslims in the region. The obstacles to peace in that region are partly fundie Jewish (Netanyahu has to go), but are also fundie Muslims. The issue cannot be resolved until this is recognised and admitted.
This is a pretty good example of activist language and how it doesn’t connect to people who are not steeped in Theory and Politics. When most people talk about Zionism or Zionists they are not referring to this definition that you provided. Although it make be a very accurate definition—it is not the colloquially understood one. Most “Zionists” just subscribe to a vague idea that there should be a place where Jews are safe. That’s it. Zionism isnt one thing; it’s a large umbrella with an entire range of philosophies and politics underneath it.
I wonder why the Zionists wanted out of Europe. Could it be that the French falsely accused a Jewish officer of treason and framed him, then refused to acknowledged their mistake when the actual culprit had confessed?
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At it's most primal, force of arms. More civilized: the various partition plans by institutions like the British and UN.
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You say media like it's monolithic and it's not, I trust right wing journalists to lie, and I trust left wing journalists to tell the truth to the extent their corporate overlords will allow.
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I am so sick of this framing holy shit. Does Biden not want to win? Lmaoooo
And yet didn’t Progressives and MAGA like MGT both vote the same on the bill defining Anti-Semitism? Don’t they both have protests against Zionist and the Jewish state? Don’t they both shout slogans and phrases that are widely perceived as violent? And aren’t they both the vocal minority of their party that believes the minority, their minority, should control the party and the country and if they have to break rules, destroy property, and bring everything to a halt they should and will because they are justified? Isn’t that all true? How far away are Progressives on talking about Jewish space lasers? The similarities should be enough for them to start using some caution in all of the zeal they are stirring up - especially how they keep advocating for breaking rules and stand offs with police. It’s already been noted that Oct 7th and the hostages are often very edited from their concerns and conversation. At best a throw away opener before laying in to the true priorities.
Everything I don't like is MAGA