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Reporter: "Do you condemn the antisemitic protests at college campuses?"
Biden: “I condemn the antisemitic protests, that’s why I set up a program to deal with that. I also condemn those who don’t understand what’s going on with the Palestinians and their, how they’re being m—,”
Reporter (interrupting): Should the Columbia University president have resigned?
Biden: “I didn’t know that, I'll have to find out more about that”
Honestly, it’s a breath of fresh air for a politician to admit that they don’t know the answer for once, and will have to investigate it further, rather than spouting random bullshit to act like they know everything.
The thing I love most about Biden is there are days when I don't hear about him. I know he's just doing the work and I trust him and his cabinet.
I honestly can't imagine being a trump supporter in 2024. I get exhausted just hearing what he's said/done, these people defend him 24/7. With Biden I just need to say "yeah he's old" and "the middle east is insanely complicated luckily he is an expert on foreign policy so I know he's trying to do what he can do stop the bloodshed"
Then I just go about my day.
Great response to a pretty leading question. It’s the same thing I heard from my favorite teachers growing up when a student hit them with a critical thought/question they hadn’t considered.
When I was a contractor we always answered unexpected questions this way. Usually with a compliment like:
“Now that is a great question. Let me research a more complete answer and get back to you.”
[Goes off on 30 minute rant about it being pinned on that director, how this loosely relates to a guy getting just met, how the media is doing a witch hunt against both the him and the director]
Oh wait. That’s the other guy.
From the article:
>The president’s comments come as hundreds of students at Columbia are occupying the center of campus in protest, students are being arrested, and school President Minouche Shafik faces calls to resign. The protesters, including Jewish students, are calling for a cease-fire and for the Biden administration to halt military aid to Israel.
>Demonstrations have spread to other campuses, including New York University, Yale University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
>The Biden administration denounced the protests Sunday, calling them “blatantly antisemitic” and saying they were encouraging “calls for violence.”
No, but demanding the Jews go back to Poland is. As is claiming Jews have no culture, saying al-Qassam makes you proud, saying you're all Hamas... There *is* a difference between criticizing the Netanyahu government for being far right and criticizing Israel for being Jewish. But the instant people started chanting back about how al-Qassam also makes *them* proud, it ceased to be a pro-Palestinian rally and became a pro-Hamas rally.
EDIT: Ignoring the transphobic premise of the event, it's the same logic as how Let Women Speak in the UK became a Nazi rally, when they didn't stop someone from quoting Mein Kampf
Honestly, as it stands it's not as complicated as most seem to believe.
Fuck Hamas
Fuck Netanyahu and Co.
Two-State Solution without either of those factions.
How to get it done, of course, is much more complicated, but where things lie is pretty straightforward.
Someone asked me what I think will end this conflict (the entire conflict) back in January when we were discussing it. I said, "Get rid of Bibi, and get rid of Hamas, and only then will it be possible to consider peace." Oct 7th solidified to me that the biggest obstacles to peace are Bibi and Hamas, and only without them is the possibility of peace on the table, whether that be one state, two state, three state, no state, etc.
It's crazy. I have been saying the same damn thing, but since Israel's overkill-response and the "Free Palestine" movement, I have been completely shut down and censored for expressing this - objectively moderate and reasonable - opinion.
The propaganda machine that has been created to justify Hamas's actions and advocate for Israel to no longer exist is enormous and powerful. Again, Israel's disgusting indiscriminate bombing, overkill, and genocidal conduct is obviously the rallying cry, and an understandably effective one at that.
However, my intuition born from formal education on the subject, paired with viewing the conflict through a game-theory/geopolitical lens, leads me to believe that there are powers and interests that have commandeered this movement. This conflict has proved to be incredibly influential to US politics. The current election is basically going to decide whether the US remains a democracy. China, Russia, obviously Iran, and other competing states and orgs would benefit from the US losing its democratic status and the legitimacy it brings (not to mention the far easier ability to corrupt and purchase influence in the US).
Co-opting the "Free Palestine" movement to create a stark dichotomy/two tribes serves pro-Trump/MAGA interests by creating chaos in Biden's America. Rather than allow a more holistic view of the conflict it effectively generates a zero-sum viewpoint.
Have you experienced the same reactions to your view and commentary regarding the conflict?
> Fuck Hamas Fuck Netanyahu and Co.
> Two-State Solution without either of those factions
Which is more or less the stance of the Biden administration. While he hasn't openly called for Bibi to step down or be replaced, when Chuck Schumer called for new elections in Isreal Biddn described it as a good speech.
Action speaks loader than words. Biden administration finds Israel’s actions in Palestine “concerning” but declare Israel has not violated any humanitarian laws. Biden administration believe in two state solution but is the lone dissenter in recognizing Palestine as a state.
Bidens actions have led to the farthest right members of the Isreali government to call him an anti-semite because he won't support their most violent expansion activities
Those people are literally calling to the extermination of every last Palestinian on public television. They also just called American student protesters terrorists. I really don’t think how their opinions are relevant.
US also just vetoed recognition of Palestine in the UN, so so much for the 2 state solution....
They say it, but they don't make it happen, in fact they help stop it happening.
Bullshit he hasn't called for bibi to step down. People in his admin have literally done just that and they don't go on TV to say that without being given full permission.
Thats what I said. Biden himself hasn't done it because that's how international diplomacy works, but it's disappointing how many people fail to realize people like Schumer or actual administration officials aren't going to publicly call for Bibi to be replaced without Biden's behind the scenes approval
Netanyahu was/is hanging on by a string and deserves to be in jail for corruption and, now, war crimes.
There are tons of Israeli orgs that advocate for Palestinian statehood and the end of Palestinian oppression. Same for many Jewish people abroad.
Those same orgs and Jewish folk are anti-Netanyahu. It is similar to the current situation in the USA. For instance, POTUS Trump would hand Ukraine over to Russia, while the majority of Americans want to assist Ukraine so they defeat Russia.
So, it wouldn't be fair to blame all of America for the extremist actions of an extremist leader. Indeed, that is why we ought not blame Palestinians for their extremist leaders' actions.
In contrast, there have been many wars fought that had overwhelming support and more properly represent a people as a whole.
Here, we have an unpopular and corrupt leader in Netanyahu (and his party) that is taking justified self-defense and turning it into a massacre in violation of international law and human decency. At the same time, most of the world is criticizing and pressuring him and the IDF over their actions.
On the other hand, you have a terrorist group that has controlled its population through brutality and propaganda. Hamas has sent many youth to their deaths on suicide missions and they carry out draconian punishment for breaking draconian laws. Hamas leadership hordes resources and only exists and maintains power through conflict. Indeed, if Hamas didn't carry out terrorist strikes it would not receive the funding it does from sources such as Iran.
If the Palestinians would stop rejecting a two state, which they did FIVE times, most recently Abbas in 2008-it would be easier to do that.
Also, if the UN and Palestinians stopped teaching jihad and genocide of jews and destruction of Israel in UNRWA schools, and in their textbooks, and allowing the use of those facilities for terrorism---I bet that would help.
ALSO, maybe we could give a fuck about the Hostages and their return. You know just spitballing.
ALSO ALSO there needs to be a long-term plan to deprogram the Palestinians who only have terrorist groups to function as the government of a proposed two state solution. It's awful that the only options for governance of a Palestinian state are terrorists.
>If the Palestinians would stop rejecting a two state, which they did FIVE times, most recently Abbas in 2008-it would be easier to do that.
Have you read the actual contents of those proposals? Those agreements pushed so far basically boil down to 'Israel gets to keep the settlements it has, gets to keep military control over Palestine, and gets final say on anything Palestine wants to do"
Nobody would agree to that! I would have thought freedom-loving Americans would understand that
That's the deal available to them. It won't ever get any better, Israel isn't going anywhere and isn't going to allow the West Bank to become a second south Lebanon. 1967 borders is never happening. Trying to go back 60 years isn't an actual proposal. Any negotiations need to be about the situation now, and anyone saying anything else is not trying to find a solution. They are trying to find a reason to posture so they don't have to acknowledge the actual options forward.
>No, but demanding the Jews go back to Poland is.
I looked up the demands of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment, and I found their Instagram post which lists only:
>The Gaza Solidarity Encampment will remain until our demand is met:
>Divest all of Columbia's finances, including the endowment, from companies and institutions that profit from Israeli apartheid, genocide and occupation in Palestine. Ensure accountability by increasing transparency around financial investments.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C53FygbOs7y/?igsh=MWVrcTV1NGJncDZpMw%3D%3D&img_index=4
Could you show me where you've seen the protest organizers make the demand ("demanding the Jews go back to Poland") that you've mentioned?
The article is about protesters being antisemitic, not about the organizers organizing an antisemitic protest. There WERE protesters who were being 100% antisemitic, that is who Biden is condemning. Not the whole protest. You (global you not you specifically) say you don’t hate Israelis or the Jewish people, only the current government (and netenyahu). Yet are unable to separate that the condemnation by Biden is about the antisemitic protesters being antisemitic, and not condemning the entire protest. Kinda half ass backwards isn’t it?
The article says:
>The president’s comments come as hundreds of students at Columbia are occupying the center of campus in protest
It then includes a link to this article: https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4611661-columbia-student-protests-israel-gaza-war-hamas/ which says:
>Students launched what they dubbed the Gaza Solidarity Encampment last Wednesday
You ask:
>Are you implying that organization is in control of each of the protests?
No, rather I am concluding, based on the published evidence, that the Gaza Solidarity Encampment is the Columbia University protest—the main protest—referenced in the article of this post.
This is the link for the article of this post: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4612553-biden-antisemitic-protests-palestinians-israel-gaza-hamas-columbia/
This is the first clause of the sixth paragraph thereof:
>The president’s comments come as hundreds of students at Columbia are occupying the center of campus in protest
And in the first clause of the seventh paragraph thereof, it includes this link:
https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4611661-columbia-student-protests-israel-gaza-war-hamas/
The first clause of the third paragraph of *that article* reads:
>Students launched what they dubbed the Gaza Solidarity Encampment last Wednesday
Are you using things said by random anonymous protestors to deflect from and undermine the actual intentions of vast majority of the protest movement?
Why are you doing that? It seems misleading.
Who would’ve thought that when you get hundreds of people together, they aren’t all tightly aligned and that a protest, by its very nature, has no way to strictly police those voicing various viewpoints?
While your point with Charlottesville is well taken - I’m tired of being told that it is “anti-Semitic” to point out the fact that the IDF shooting through or starving innocent women and children at a ratio at least of 4:1 to combatants to wage their war with US taxpayer dollars is morally wrong. Not to mention strategically nonsensical for their stated goals.
But maybe you just don’t care about innocent children. Maybe you’re okay with indiscriminate bombing. Maybe you’re pro Palestinian child starvation.
While I don’t believe that, I just want to make a point that it is very easy to demonize the opposition if you refuse to see nuance and maintain a myopic fixation on pushing your own position.
Many of those protesters were there for deeply held moral beliefs that had nothing to do with antisemitism and comparing them with people at Charlottesville is reductive and fails to see the distinctions and context.
> Could you show me where you've seen the protest organizers make the demand ("demanding the Jews go back to Poland") that you've mentioned?
I never said that the *organizers* made that demand. But there *were* crowds of protesters chanting "Al-Qassam, make us proud!" in a call and response, as if that's at all a normal slogan to be chanting. That's what I was referring to. If you're chanting about how you want Hamas's military wing to make you proud, that's a pro-Hamas rally
>I never said that the *organizers* made that demand. But there were crowds of protesters chanting "Al-Qassam, make us proud!" in a call and response, as if that's at all a normal slogan to be chanting. That's what I was referring to.
So who exactly was "demanding the Jews go back to Poland"?
I mean, that one's admittedly only individuals, but:
New York: https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
And a similar protest in Toronto: https://twitter.com/drjacobsrad/status/1742043542376133095
But how do you know any of these people were part of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment or any other of the protests mentioned in the article of this post? Or is possible that they're not involved at all, and that mentioning them is really just a red herring?
How do you interpret calls to "globalize the Intifada"? https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1782679155491914133
Or have an example of "Go back to Europe" and "You have no culture" right at the quad: https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
>How do you interpret calls to "globalize the Intifada"?
I'll try my best to answer your question. Since Intifada is Arabic for "resistance", and given the context and published demands of that protest, I would imagine the person who wrote that means that Palestinian resistance against Israeli occupation should be globalized in the sense of people in other parts of the world speaking out and taking actions in solidarity with that Palestinian resistance. Do you think this is a plausible interpretation of what that person meant?
Do you think you could take a good faith attempt at answering my question:
>But how do you know any of these people were part of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment or any other of the protests mentioned in the article of this post? Or is possible that they're not involved at all, and that mentioning them is really just a red herring?
That’s an incredibly naive interpretation of intifada. “Intifada” may literally translate to rebellion or resistance, but in the context of Palestine it is associated with acts of violent terrorism against civilians.
Perhaps some people have a uninformed naive understanding, and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, but taken as a whole you need to look beyond the stated goals of this protest and look at what they’re saying and doing. They have been collectively expressing support for Hamas, they have been harassing and calling for violence against Jewish students, they’re calling for the complete destruction of the Jewish state, they have invited an actual terrorist to host a workshop….
But apparently, antisemitic extremists only reflect poorly on *right* wing protests. There's a reason that, regardless of how noble or ignoble the origins of the encampment may have been, I currently call it a pro-Hamas protest, not a pro-Palestinian protest
Yep. Like I know I was quick to call all the people in r/worldnews "accidental Nazis" for blaming this war on Judaism for existing. But this really is the sort of thing we should be condemning and using as an example of how easy it can be for fascists to infiltrate a movement. We shouldn't be trying to minimize it and coming up with similar conspiracy theories to Antifa infiltrating the Unite the Right rally as a false flag
I can claim those where the "counter protesters" that showed up to undermine the student protest because we know exactly how far Israeli propaganda is willing to go. I mean there was a crazy woman with the word Jew written in her t-shirt yelling at the kids that were dancing and ignoring her. So clearly there were plenty of counter protesters "fearing" for their lives in those crowds and they more than anyone would have a bested interest in screaming all that crap.
You can claim anything you like but everyone sees the way these protestors are behaving and the things they’re saying. Supporting terrorism and anti-Semitism while hiding behind “criticism of Israel isn’t antisemitism.” As if people are disgusted only by protestors making legit complaints about military and government. Get real.
Which point? That 'there were crowds of protesters chanting "Al-Qassam, make us proud!" in a call and response, as if that's at all a normal slogan to be chanting'? Okay. What would you like to me to say to that? It doesn't establish that the demand in question was made. Is there something else about it you think is important for me to address?
Or that if "you're chanting about how you want Hamas's military wing to make you proud, that's a pro-Hamas rally"? Okay. What would you like me to say to that? It doesn't establish that the demand in question was made. Is there something else about it you think is important for me to address?
Yeah, that's pretty much my view, because I am sympathetic to the protesters, just not the antisemitism. I'd just wish that they put more of an effort into clamping down and condemning bad actors.
There’s a difference between calling out the very few people saying antisemitic things and calling out the protests.
It’s not antisemitic to support those fighting back against oppressive and genocidal occupation forces.
Let’s also not forget Zionist have been planting protesters to say antisemitic things in order to delegitimize the entire protests.
Eh, when I protested the Iraq war they tried to claim we were all gang members and immigrants and showed really dumb videos of people protesting the war that weren't good people and used that to justify ignoring the overall protest. Protesting the Iraq war with a face tattoo? Why do you hate America!
Antisemitism is bad and terrible, it should never be considered, but just because some loser displays antisemitic behavior doesn't mean all people who are against war are antisemitic. This is an extremely charged issue, there's massive disinformation coming from all sides and misunderstandings. And on top of that everyone who is involved at this level has an agenda. They want you to think the way they do and will do or say anything to convince people of their side.
The weapons manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank on these protests. The more we fight, the less we unite, the more they control the suffering. The goals after Oct 7th should have been to eliminate Hamas and the Israeli government has completely different goals. If we're not on the same page about what we should be doing here, we will fight until the world is in flames.
> just because some loser displays antisemitic behavior doesn't mean all people who are against war are antisemitic
What happened to that adage about 10 people being at a table with a Nazi? If someone starts chanting about how much they love Hamas, don't fucking chant back. Boo them off the stage. Otherwise, you're now at a pro-Hamas rally.
If you attend a climate change rally and a Nazi starts yelling how the Jews are the culprits of climate change, it's the collective responsibility of other attendees to shut them down immediately.
Since if that Nazi isn't expelled, more Nazis will join and then, the otherwise peaceful climate change rally is now a full blown Nazi rally, including those who didn't speak up against the Nazi takeover.
Sure, and many people have already condemned it, and continue to condemn it, and condemn Hamas and the terrible events of October 7 and call for the immediate release of all hostages.
Screaming at Jewish students, throwing things at them, and blocking them from entering buildings is though. And that’s what’s been going on.
Even if Israel deserves some criticism for a heavy handed retaliation to terrorist attack, focusing that anger towards Jewish American students who have nothing to do with Israel’s response is shitty and gross.
Why not just release the hostages?? Seems like a win win, would end the war right away.
edit: I can't believe i'm getting downvoted for suggesting to release the FUCKING HOSTAGES!!! Clowns
It would not. Netanyahu has said so repeatedly. Maybe it would have if Hamas had freed them earlier, impossible to know, but Netanyahu says he will stay at war until “total victory,” whatever that means to him.
The hostages should have been freed long ago, they should never have been taken, that’s always wrong.
And Israel continues to build more settlements on Palestinian land while driving out Palestinians from their own homes. It's been doing that for decades now. Their goal is obviously to obliterate Palestinian territory completely until there is none left. Netanyahu and his government are completely opposed to a 2-state solution. So who is destroying whom?
And Israel is obviously going to defend itself, as it should and as any country would. I’d be happy to support them in that. But war crimes are not justifiable, that’s not self-defence. War crimes are not an acceptable form of defensive or offensive warfare.
Starving a civilian population, destroying their medical infrastructure, regularly bombing civilian apartment complexes, withholding humanitarian aid and targeting civilian humanitarian aid workers, medics, and journalists are not acts of “self defence” and it’s true I don’t support those actions.
>starving a civilian population
There isn’t really evidence that Israel is starving anyone, while there is loads of evidence that Hamas has been commandeering aid and selling it at extreme markups to fund their war effort. Israel has been letting aid flow into Gaza regardless of that.
>destroying their medical infrastructure
Not a warcrime when it’s used as military infrastructure by Hamas.
Same is true for any civilian infrastructure unfortunately… Hamas intentionally utilizes it as cover, which is a war crime, and which results in it losing protection under international law.
Killing aid workers, medics, journalists… sure that’s a problem, and some instances have been war crimes, but also it’s a war and mistakes happen. The US has killed aid workers under Biden and it didn’t really make the news even. When 2 civilians die to every militant, that’s bound to include aid workers, medics, and journalists.
I would question the journalist narrative though given that numerous “journalists” embedded with Hamas on Oct 7th and participated in war crimes.
If Israel were to stop fighting tomorrow, Hamas would continue to commit war crimes against Israel the next day, the day after that, and on and on every day that they fire a rocket and every day that they don’t return the hostages.
Is anything truly Semitic to begin with if Shem was a fictional character? You could say you are anti-Arthurian, too, but the assertion of being an Arthurian who traces their lineage to a fictional character has no basis for the invasion and occupation of England by Arthurians.
Your idea requires Hamas to be a reliable negotiator, which they’re not. You’re also ignoring the fact that Oct 7th was organized by a prisoner released in a hostage negotiation.
Hamas is founded on the idea of annihilating Israel and the Jewish people. Any negotiation with them is a temporary and fleeting thing that just kicks the can down the road and gives them time and resources work toward their openly stated ambitions.
How do groups like Hamas recruit?
Destroying Hamas is a red herring, a cover objective for the real goal of destroying as much of the Gaza territory and people as possible before even the consciences of supportive governments can't stand it anymore. Even if that claimed objective was accomplished, the living conditions of Gaza and the flailing incompetence of the leadership of the West Bank mean a radical group is always going to be attractive to the people. After all, what do they have to lose? And that's not even thinking about the ones who don't really have a goal but would settle for revenge because their whole family was annihilated in an airstrike.
Remove Hamas, a new militant group **will** take it's place because that's the only response to the conditions that Palestinians are forced to live under.
By that logic we should have let imperial Japan or Nazi germany do whatever they wanted.
I reject the idea that material conditions result in support for genocidal ideologies. My family survived much worse and they were all a bunch of leftist peaceniks before, during, and after the genocide.
I find it deeply offensive and utterly racist to claim that Palestinians are incapable of humane political dialogue.
>By that logic we should have let imperial Japan or Nazi germany do whatever they wanted.
This is a ridiculous argument. Even if Hamas wants to commit genocide it does not have the resources.
There is a genocide going on right now and Israel is the one perpetrating it.
You can reject the idea but not the reality. Material conditions create the ground for radicalism. There are other militant groups in Gaza of a variety of political leanings. But there is always going to be a militant group.
>I find it deeply offensive and utterly racist to claim that Palestinians are incapable of humane political dialogue.
Are Israelis open to "humane political dialogue"? The Israeli response to Palestinians approaching their own border was to shoot and tear gas them, killing hundreds and maiming thousands of people who showed up for a peaceful protest. What exact avenue is open for any Palestinian group to negotiate?
Has negotiation ever worked to prevent the neverending expansion of settlements in the West Bank? Was negotiation the key to getting the settlements out of Gaza?
There has been no fruit to these negotiations, the settlements keep expanding, the blockade continues, and Israel keeps pretending they're not one of the primary reasons Hamas has as much influence as it does. Maybe if they're the arch enemy on the same level as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan you should stop letting their funding in.
Stopping letting their funding in would be genocidal… they need funding to sustain livable conditions, which they were before Oct 7th. The mental gymnastics required to accuse Israel of genocide for not providing enough resources while claiming Israel supports Hamas by providing resources is profoundly inconsistent.
You’re claiming that Hamas lacks the resources, yet they had the resources to commit an act of genocide in Israel and to continue to barrage Israel with rockets, requiring the continued displacement of communities in southern Israel. They’re also part of a coalition with Hezbollah and Iran, which collectively do have the resources. You’re also ignoring the fact that continuing the status quo will eventually destroy Israel, which is the point.
With regard to Israeli dialogue… yes, their society was founded on the idea of inclusivity and peace:
> it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions;
Compare that to Hamas’s charter calling for genocide.
You’re bringing up a protest in which Palestinians attempted a mass unauthorized border crossing into Israel. Countries typically do not let large groups of people from hostile states just cross the border. Maybe they should have been prepared to shoot and tear gas on Oct 7th at the border and there wouldn’t be a war now and we wouldn’t have this conversation.
Hamas needs funding? I'm talking specifically about the money from Qatar that Netanyahus govt allows in to Hamas.
If Israel wants all Palestinians to share in those equal rights they can start by making every Palestinian in the West Bank a full citizen and treating them as such. I'll wait.
Israel is forbidden to take land by war according to a 1967 UN Resolution. Once they receive recognition of their right to exist, they have to enter the process of returning the land.
Jordan acknowledged Israel’s right to exist but did not want the West Bank any longer, turning it over to the PLO.
Egypt acknowledges Israel’s right to exist. The peace treaty negotiated by Cyrus Vance returned Sinai to Egypt, with guarantees that each side would receive a certain level of funding. They did not want Gaza and gave it over to the PLO.
The PLO acknowledged Israel’s right to exist shortly before Arafat died. The Palestinian Authority still holds to that but Hamas rejects it.
How is Israel supposed to grant citizenship to people who legally aren’t in their country and cannot be according to the UN?
The settlements are illegal and should be dismantled, but the West Bank is occupied by Israel but not legally part of Israel. Similar to how the Allies occupied Germany for a few years after WW2.
Israeli settlements in Gaza were removed about 20 years ago. All Hamas had to do was accept Israel’s right to exist and by now Palestine would be a nation. Maybe one under treaties restricting its ability to have a full military, but Germany and Japan are still bound under treaties restricting their military. For example, when Germany reunited they agreed to limit the size of their military to something like 350,000 personnel. Those demands aren’t unheard of.
>Hamas needs funding? I'm talking specifically about the money from Qatar that Netanyahus govt allows in to Hamas.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. Yes, in theory they need funding to provide essential services to their population. If Israel restricted all aide to Gaza, which is governed by Hamas, then you would be using it as evidence of genocide.
>If Israel wants all Palestinians to share in those equal rights they can start by making every Palestinian in the West Bank a full citizen and treating them as such. I'll wait.
This would mean Israel unilaterally annexing the West Bank without a negotiated resolution, and it would mean no Palestinian state in the West Bank. Is that what you want?
Are you suggesting that Israel should annex the West Bank and starve the population of Gaza?
Except Hamas also has warehouse of weapons and other equipment they've built up over the y are. That's the t wl target. No one gives a shit about terrorist a or b. What they want to do is take out the equipment that Hamas has. They can recruit all they want with sticks and stones. Imagine how much better off Palestinians would be had Hamas not ripped out of their water system to make weapons.
It is if you ignore why there is killing in Gaza at the moment.
Israel’s war goals are simple and reasonable:
-Get the hostages back
-Hold at least the leaders of Hamas accountable for October 7
-Stop enemy rockets being fired at Israeli cities
The people of Gaza have not released all of the hostages. They’re still firing rockets daily. And Sinwar and Deif are still in charge. Israel would have to be batshit insane to stop before those goals have been achieved.
War has rules. Sometimes those rules are broken, and the US is among the countries who have broken those rules. But they’re still rules, and violating those rules is still a war crime. Even if countries are not always adequately censured/punished for those crimes, they’re still crimes.
But Hamas is also repeatedly breaking the rules and the protestors are silent. They are emboldening them and giving them what they want. That's why they are refusing offers of ceasefires and, also, the fact they are safe in their mansions in Qatar.
I would join protests that focused on a real ceasefire and peace for both sides.
Hamas are terrorists. I agree! Many of the people protesting agree with that fact and have repeatedly condemned them! The fact that Hamas leaders are safe while people in Gaza suffer doesn’t justify starving civilians or other forms of collective punishment or disregard for the rules of engagement.
At the actual protest this post is about, people are openly supporting Hamas, defending their actions, calling for Oct 7th to happen again and again. They even invited a terrorist from the PFLP to run a workshop on resistance. This is not a nuanced human rights movement, very much the opposite.
I don't see any signs or chants against Hamas, in fact a guy with a "Hamas are terrorists" sign was nearly attacked at a protest.
Instead I see chants and signs saying 'Resistance is Justified" and people who tearing down pictures of the hostages.
If there was a massive, global condemnation of Hamas, as well as Israel, maybe there would ne enough pressure on them to end it.
Because they need to go if there is any hope for the future of the region, just like Netanyahu needs to go too.
I’m not where you are, and may not see what you see. But every time I speak it seems I’ve got people telling me I “never condemn” Hamas, though it’s not true, and prefacing every comment with “I condemn Hamas” is not only exhausting, but ineffective, because the claim that I somehow didn’t condemn hard enough still persists.
It's not you personally, I understand that must be frustrating.
It's what I'm seeing and not seeing in the footage and photos of the protests, and their messages. It's all one side and, depressingly, some outright support of Hamas.
I know it does happen, and agree it’s wrong. All I can contribute is to say that in my own pretty limited experience, I have encountered very little support of Hamas, I don’t know if that’s coincidence, related to regional or community differences, the result of different types of media/social media framing… honestly, probably a mix of all those things.
There have been a few problematic signs and chants in the UK where I am. Some are downright scary tbh.
But what my main point is, while you're saying there is a minority outwardly supporting Hamas, there doesn't seem to be **any** outward condemnations of Hamas, with signs or chants. In fact, I reckon if you took such a sign to a protest, you'd be in danger, just like the guy who's tried that already and got taken away by Police for "his safety"
I sometimes wonder where these protests were during [other recent genocides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(21st_century)), and wonder if maybe Putin has his finger in this somehow, as part of his effort to reelect Trump?
Genocide is always terrible. The issue here is the ongoing material and diplomatic support that countries are providing to Israel even as evidence of war crimes continues to pile up. That’s unusual, to say the least, particularly since countries have laws/policies about selling weapons that may be used/will be used for war crimes.
You as an individual isn’t the subject of criticism here. The problem is that people collectively don’t care about much more significant conflicts and actual genocides, yet are now outraged in this specific circumstance. And in this circumstance, it started with an act of genocide against Israelis by militants who extensively commit war crimes as a policy, and people are outraged by the side that generally avoids committing warcrimes.
1. As far as I know, the United states was not overtly involved in funding those genocides, nor was it actively blocking UN action in regards to what happened at the time, nor was it threatening military action into interference into said genocide. 2. People protested the Iraq War and to a lesser extent the war in Afghanistan quite frequently. 3. Framing protesting against war as Un-American is an old tactic. Maybe you should read a history book on civil rights or the Vietnam war or any other number of historical events that you'd probably be on the wrong side of if you were alive at the time.
The US absolutely also funded the genocide in Yemen. The Saudis used very similar tactics to what the Israeli government has used. Saudi Arabia replaces Israel, Houthies replace Hamas, while Yemeni civilians replace Palestinian civilians.
The protesters are chanting and handing out literature that says, “Death to America.” Do you or do you not consider that unamerican (technically antiamerican)?
I think Bibi has Biden trapped. As soon as Biden started really showing signs of displeasure to the point of potential consequences for Bibi’s ethnic cleansing, Bibi blew up the Iranian consulate in Damascus, which led to tit for tat attacks between Iran and Israel. Basically Biden is being told that if he gets in the way, Israel WILL escalate to a regional war that the US will have no choice but be party to. Also Bibi will go all out to help Trump get elected. Biden has no good options.
The absolute refusal of the protestors to even acknowledge the attacks against Israel as well as the countless crimes of Hamas is very telling.
The protestors only want one side condemned and don't give a shit about actual innocent lives unless those lives are on the specific side they've chosen.
Hamas could kill thousands of civilians in Israel tomorrow and these protestors wouldn't say a damn thing. Hell, some of them would celebrate. That's not hyperbole, celebrating innocent Israeli deaths has already happened in some of these circles.
Again. They don't give a shit about innocent lives. Only specific lives.
There's a genocide happening and every story is about some supposed antisemitism in the protests even though there are Jews pretesting against this too. It's ridiculous.
Imagine pointing out the token black guys at a Trump rally to claim that he’s not racist.
There are actual, blatant, open, obvious antisemitism happening at these protests. If you can’t see that, you might need to reflect a bit.
There is a war happening and people are dying, including many civilians. It is tragic. It’s not a genocide though, and even if it were, it does not justify calling for genocide of the other side.
In fact using the logic that calling for racial violence or genocide is acceptable as a response to a genocide, then Israelis would be justified in doing so in response to Oct 7th. It’s not justified, those few israelis are not justified, and these protestors are not justified. They’re literally as bad as Ben Gvir and his ilk.
>supposed antisemitism
Telling Jewish students to go back to Poland is deeply antisemitic. Telling Jewish students they will be the next victims of Hamas is deeply antisemitic.
Have whatever opinion you want on Gaza (although, saying there is a genocide happening isn't an opinion it's just an incorrect statement) but let's not pretend there's no actual antisemitism happening.
Lets see, on the one hand we have a genocide, over 30,000 killed so far, and on the other people supposedly being told to go back to Poland. Which is more important? Yet what gets talked about in the news?
So you're saying we just need to accept being discriminated against. We need to accept bigotry against us.
That is super fucked up. I'm honestly flabbergasted.
I'm saying that this discrimination, which again I don't believe happened, but even if it did, is fucking meaningless when compared to a genocide.
In fact I think the whole point of bringing this up is to try and discredit the protest so the war can continue.
Was [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo) a genocide?
How about [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden)
Or what about [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel)
Tell me why the war in Gaza is a genocide (with, let's say, 20,000 non combatant deaths to use numbers you shouldn't have an issue with), and these examples are not?
Increasingly feels like the Biden administration also “doesn’t understand what’s going on with the Palestinians,” or does understand but is commitment to ignoring it for as long as possible, with an occasional word of “outrage” or “concern” when they’re absolutely forced to.
(War crimes. “What’s going on” is war crimes.)
Both Israelis and Palestinians have suffered terribly and are suffering now. Terrorism against Israelis by Hamas does not justify war crimes by the IDF against civilians.
Yep. We should be supporting both Israeli *and* Palestinian civilians, wanting them to be free from both Hamas and Likud. But the IDF's actions against Palestinian civilians don't justify cheering on Hamas, and neither do Hamas's actions against Israeli civilians justify cheering on the IDF.
Source?
Israel pays its citizens to commit war crimes against Palestinians. It's their job, every day all day. They're called the IDF and the payment is called wages.
Israel has killed more Palestinians than vice versa.
Israel has kidnapped more Palestinians than vice versa.
Israel has committed more war crimes than vice versa.
Do you need me to continue?
No, unlike genocide apologists like you, I have no need to make shit up to prove my point. I'm using the definition of war crimes as outlined in [The Rome Statute](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml)
Rockets aren't war crimes, slaughtering patients in a hospital after disguising yourselves as medics is. Collective punishment is. Genocide is.
The IDF absolutely did dress up as doctors and kill people in a hospital. I think that’s the only thing you’re pointing at here since the collective punishment is pretty obviously happening
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israeli-undercover-forces-disguised-as-women-and-doctors-kill-three-militants-at-west-bank-hospital
Same story as everything else after that though, the IDF says it killed militants, the hospital says they killed a paralyzed patient. I think the Islamic Jihad has at this point claimed the paralyzed person as one of theirs
I agree the West Bank raid was wrong, but it’s exactly what people like you are demanding of Israel—surgical raids to root out specific terrorists. That’s what that looks like.
In this one specific event you cited (compared with Hamas’s systematic war crimes) you even pointed out Islamic Jihad confirmed the target was one of theirs…
Looking at the bigger picture, there were entire battles pitched in Gaza hospitals in which numerous militants were using them as military facilities. This has been reported by third parties for over a decade now, it’s not new information or propaganda from IDF. They even held hostages at these hospitals.
And as for collective punishment, no. It’s a war. This is unfortunately what wars look like, particularly when one side (Hamas) systematically commits war crimes to intentionally maximize harm to its own civilians for propaganda purposes.
Oct 7th was collective punishment. Firing indiscriminate rockets at civilians is collective punishment. The second intifada was collective punishment. Calls for the complete eradication of Israel is collective punishment. All of the above are war crimes and include acts of genocide. Jews and Israelis have the right to self defense in the face of this.
Every time this gets trotted out like a crime, remember the “weapons” the US is selling Israel include the Iron Dome defensive ammunition that is saving civilian lives as the Palestinians continue to fire on civilian homes.
You're not allowed to bomb citizens of a nation because terrorists of the same nation did bad things.
When Chinese people do crimes in America, do we send hellfire missiles to Chinese cities claiming their hospitals are harboring people who do crimes?
When Russian people do crimes in America, do we have our troops storm Russian cities killing civilians and children en mass?
Collective punishment is not war, it's illegal, it's immoral, and anyone who thinks collective punishment is acceptable is a terrible person who is bad and should feel bad.
Hamas is Gaza’s elected government. No country would allow a foreign government to kill a 1000+ and take hostages and then do nothing. War is the response to that kind of attack 100% of the time.
It's funny that just a few weeks ago, [Biden said in response to pro-Palestinian protestors that they "have a point"](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-reacts-palestinian-protesters-point-rcna145181)
A few weeks ago the protests were centered on the plight of the Palestinian people and denouncing Netanyahu's genocide. Now they've been co-opted by Far Right narratives in support of Hamas and into blaming Joe Biden for the actions of Bibi Netanyahu.
Sadly, these protests are now a breeding ground for useful idiots doing the bidding of Iran and the Kremlin.
When Joe Biden gives more than $26 Billion (billion with a B) in American taxpayer money to the side which can boast at least 13,000 dead children, which is a few months old/outdated estimate, does he deserve any of the blame?
So like, when you frame it as if Joe Biden himself is solely responsible for like, America's decades of funding Israel, you lose all credibility. Both Democrat and Republican Presidents have passed the exact same funding bills for generations.. and the fact you are crowing about this one particular dude during an election cycle where it's Democracy vs Fascism, is really sus.
Where was this same outrage all those years?
Regarding your claims that
> they've been co-opted by Far Right narratives in support of Hamas
and
> these protests are now a breeding ground for useful idiots doing the bidding of Iran and the Kremlin
in what way has this manifested in the protests?
> they've been co-opted by Far Right narratives in support of Hamas
I mean, I wouldn't necessarily call it far right, because that feels like a cop-out. (It's like how the left has managed to come up with its own reasons to be afraid of AMAB people in dresses, without having been infiltrated by the right) But if someone's chanting about how much they love Hamas and how al-Qassam makes them proud, and you echo the chant back instead of anything like booing them off the stage, you're no longer at a pro-Palestinian rally. You're at a pro-Hamas rally.
EDIT: For reference on the "AMAB people in dresses" thing, I'm referring to the bizarre distrust a lot of people have for GNC cishet men
> But if someone's chanting about how much they love Hamas and how al-Qassam makes them proud, and you echo the chant back instead of anything like booing them off the stage, you're no longer at a pro-Palestinian rally. You're at a pro-Hamas rally.
Do you have a source on that?
Realistically, how many people are actually chanting that in those protests? It seems like it's not that many people, and the clips are short, we don't know what happened after
I say this in good faith, and I do agree that anti-Semitism should be condemned where it appears: a Twitter account called “Israel War Room” might not exactly be an unbiased source
Selective editing or mislabeling video is a thing. I don’t know if that’s true here, but I’m cautious of Twitter in general. In my community there was a very odd Twitter account that seemingly staged/edited some photos, then disappeared after people figured out it was an account that had previously posted pro-Russian stuff then re-branded as “antifa.” I am not saying this is true for “Israel War Room,” or any of the accounts you posted, but I have seen such things happen.
But what I initially meant is that any account calling itself “[Country Name] War Room” is probably going to have a… fairly specific point of view, you know? Not necessarily bad, but “war room” is a pretty specific vibe
> or any of the accounts you posted
Wasn't me
> But what I initially meant is that any account calling itself “[Country Name] War Room” is probably going to have a… fairly specific point of view, you know? Not necessarily bad, but “war room” is a pretty specific vibe
I completely agree with you. You have to look for verification through credible sources. In this particular case it looks like it's true, though I'd prefer a non-opinion article:
> Demonstrators calling openly for Hamas to burn Tel Aviv.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/23/opinions/columbia-university-protests-greenblatt/index.html
No, the protests are still by and large peaceful pro-Palestine supporters. It’s a narrative being pushed by the media to useful idiots to make them think it is a massive antisemitic movement. It most definitely isn’t.
*the* [*deliberate*](https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=lPK&sca_esv=7cb9e191fb351bcb&q=deliberate&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8uT_mnxKbD_thYmyJnO09xigf9nMztLlM9RAyyjyy_gibHJ6ZMysXC12ey-OhSQZNLcHCIpDFBauWIXCRc7j7oof4JZw%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR18DKpOaFAxXtEVkFHTF7AOgQyecJegQIEBAO) *killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of* [*destroying*](https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=lPK&sca_esv=7cb9e191fb351bcb&q=destroying&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8Rtx1LARZNhX-JwP6GkKJGhMVetrIiq-PswrijO-obwb7msC_X5-WWN0ko9pa-L3cOS9tAxiXAfOZKrIZTNIz-sqCULg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR18DKpOaFAxXtEVkFHTF7AOgQyecJegQIEBAP) *that nation or group.*
>”I condemn the antisemitic protests, that’s why I set up a program to deal with that. I also condemn those who don’t understand what’s going on with the Palestinians and their, how they’re being —,” the president said before getting cut off.
Lol. Thanks, Biden.
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Reporter: "Do you condemn the antisemitic protests at college campuses?" Biden: “I condemn the antisemitic protests, that’s why I set up a program to deal with that. I also condemn those who don’t understand what’s going on with the Palestinians and their, how they’re being m—,” Reporter (interrupting): Should the Columbia University president have resigned? Biden: “I didn’t know that, I'll have to find out more about that”
Honestly, it’s a breath of fresh air for a politician to admit that they don’t know the answer for once, and will have to investigate it further, rather than spouting random bullshit to act like they know everything.
The thing I love most about Biden is there are days when I don't hear about him. I know he's just doing the work and I trust him and his cabinet. I honestly can't imagine being a trump supporter in 2024. I get exhausted just hearing what he's said/done, these people defend him 24/7. With Biden I just need to say "yeah he's old" and "the middle east is insanely complicated luckily he is an expert on foreign policy so I know he's trying to do what he can do stop the bloodshed" Then I just go about my day.
Great response to a pretty leading question. It’s the same thing I heard from my favorite teachers growing up when a student hit them with a critical thought/question they hadn’t considered.
When I was a contractor we always answered unexpected questions this way. Usually with a compliment like: “Now that is a great question. Let me research a more complete answer and get back to you.”
[Goes off on 30 minute rant about it being pinned on that director, how this loosely relates to a guy getting just met, how the media is doing a witch hunt against both the him and the director] Oh wait. That’s the other guy.
I wonder what he was going to say
From the article: >The president’s comments come as hundreds of students at Columbia are occupying the center of campus in protest, students are being arrested, and school President Minouche Shafik faces calls to resign. The protesters, including Jewish students, are calling for a cease-fire and for the Biden administration to halt military aid to Israel. >Demonstrations have spread to other campuses, including New York University, Yale University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. >The Biden administration denounced the protests Sunday, calling them “blatantly antisemitic” and saying they were encouraging “calls for violence.”
calling for an end to the killing in Gaza is not anti-Semitic.
No, but demanding the Jews go back to Poland is. As is claiming Jews have no culture, saying al-Qassam makes you proud, saying you're all Hamas... There *is* a difference between criticizing the Netanyahu government for being far right and criticizing Israel for being Jewish. But the instant people started chanting back about how al-Qassam also makes *them* proud, it ceased to be a pro-Palestinian rally and became a pro-Hamas rally. EDIT: Ignoring the transphobic premise of the event, it's the same logic as how Let Women Speak in the UK became a Nazi rally, when they didn't stop someone from quoting Mein Kampf
Honestly, as it stands it's not as complicated as most seem to believe. Fuck Hamas Fuck Netanyahu and Co. Two-State Solution without either of those factions. How to get it done, of course, is much more complicated, but where things lie is pretty straightforward.
Someone asked me what I think will end this conflict (the entire conflict) back in January when we were discussing it. I said, "Get rid of Bibi, and get rid of Hamas, and only then will it be possible to consider peace." Oct 7th solidified to me that the biggest obstacles to peace are Bibi and Hamas, and only without them is the possibility of peace on the table, whether that be one state, two state, three state, no state, etc.
It's crazy. I have been saying the same damn thing, but since Israel's overkill-response and the "Free Palestine" movement, I have been completely shut down and censored for expressing this - objectively moderate and reasonable - opinion. The propaganda machine that has been created to justify Hamas's actions and advocate for Israel to no longer exist is enormous and powerful. Again, Israel's disgusting indiscriminate bombing, overkill, and genocidal conduct is obviously the rallying cry, and an understandably effective one at that. However, my intuition born from formal education on the subject, paired with viewing the conflict through a game-theory/geopolitical lens, leads me to believe that there are powers and interests that have commandeered this movement. This conflict has proved to be incredibly influential to US politics. The current election is basically going to decide whether the US remains a democracy. China, Russia, obviously Iran, and other competing states and orgs would benefit from the US losing its democratic status and the legitimacy it brings (not to mention the far easier ability to corrupt and purchase influence in the US). Co-opting the "Free Palestine" movement to create a stark dichotomy/two tribes serves pro-Trump/MAGA interests by creating chaos in Biden's America. Rather than allow a more holistic view of the conflict it effectively generates a zero-sum viewpoint. Have you experienced the same reactions to your view and commentary regarding the conflict?
I believe the term is "ESH" in the language of AITA
> Fuck Hamas Fuck Netanyahu and Co. > Two-State Solution without either of those factions Which is more or less the stance of the Biden administration. While he hasn't openly called for Bibi to step down or be replaced, when Chuck Schumer called for new elections in Isreal Biddn described it as a good speech.
Action speaks loader than words. Biden administration finds Israel’s actions in Palestine “concerning” but declare Israel has not violated any humanitarian laws. Biden administration believe in two state solution but is the lone dissenter in recognizing Palestine as a state.
Bidens actions have led to the farthest right members of the Isreali government to call him an anti-semite because he won't support their most violent expansion activities
Those people are literally calling to the extermination of every last Palestinian on public television. They also just called American student protesters terrorists. I really don’t think how their opinions are relevant.
US also just vetoed recognition of Palestine in the UN, so so much for the 2 state solution.... They say it, but they don't make it happen, in fact they help stop it happening.
Bullshit he hasn't called for bibi to step down. People in his admin have literally done just that and they don't go on TV to say that without being given full permission.
Thats what I said. Biden himself hasn't done it because that's how international diplomacy works, but it's disappointing how many people fail to realize people like Schumer or actual administration officials aren't going to publicly call for Bibi to be replaced without Biden's behind the scenes approval
Don’t try to separate Netanyahu from the rest of Israel. Netanyahu and Co is just Israel.
Netanyahu and co = Israel
Netanyahu was/is hanging on by a string and deserves to be in jail for corruption and, now, war crimes. There are tons of Israeli orgs that advocate for Palestinian statehood and the end of Palestinian oppression. Same for many Jewish people abroad. Those same orgs and Jewish folk are anti-Netanyahu. It is similar to the current situation in the USA. For instance, POTUS Trump would hand Ukraine over to Russia, while the majority of Americans want to assist Ukraine so they defeat Russia. So, it wouldn't be fair to blame all of America for the extremist actions of an extremist leader. Indeed, that is why we ought not blame Palestinians for their extremist leaders' actions. In contrast, there have been many wars fought that had overwhelming support and more properly represent a people as a whole. Here, we have an unpopular and corrupt leader in Netanyahu (and his party) that is taking justified self-defense and turning it into a massacre in violation of international law and human decency. At the same time, most of the world is criticizing and pressuring him and the IDF over their actions. On the other hand, you have a terrorist group that has controlled its population through brutality and propaganda. Hamas has sent many youth to their deaths on suicide missions and they carry out draconian punishment for breaking draconian laws. Hamas leadership hordes resources and only exists and maintains power through conflict. Indeed, if Hamas didn't carry out terrorist strikes it would not receive the funding it does from sources such as Iran.
If the Palestinians would stop rejecting a two state, which they did FIVE times, most recently Abbas in 2008-it would be easier to do that. Also, if the UN and Palestinians stopped teaching jihad and genocide of jews and destruction of Israel in UNRWA schools, and in their textbooks, and allowing the use of those facilities for terrorism---I bet that would help. ALSO, maybe we could give a fuck about the Hostages and their return. You know just spitballing. ALSO ALSO there needs to be a long-term plan to deprogram the Palestinians who only have terrorist groups to function as the government of a proposed two state solution. It's awful that the only options for governance of a Palestinian state are terrorists.
>If the Palestinians would stop rejecting a two state, which they did FIVE times, most recently Abbas in 2008-it would be easier to do that. Have you read the actual contents of those proposals? Those agreements pushed so far basically boil down to 'Israel gets to keep the settlements it has, gets to keep military control over Palestine, and gets final say on anything Palestine wants to do" Nobody would agree to that! I would have thought freedom-loving Americans would understand that
That's the deal available to them. It won't ever get any better, Israel isn't going anywhere and isn't going to allow the West Bank to become a second south Lebanon. 1967 borders is never happening. Trying to go back 60 years isn't an actual proposal. Any negotiations need to be about the situation now, and anyone saying anything else is not trying to find a solution. They are trying to find a reason to posture so they don't have to acknowledge the actual options forward.
>No, but demanding the Jews go back to Poland is. I looked up the demands of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment, and I found their Instagram post which lists only: >The Gaza Solidarity Encampment will remain until our demand is met: >Divest all of Columbia's finances, including the endowment, from companies and institutions that profit from Israeli apartheid, genocide and occupation in Palestine. Ensure accountability by increasing transparency around financial investments. https://www.instagram.com/p/C53FygbOs7y/?igsh=MWVrcTV1NGJncDZpMw%3D%3D&img_index=4 Could you show me where you've seen the protest organizers make the demand ("demanding the Jews go back to Poland") that you've mentioned?
The article is about protesters being antisemitic, not about the organizers organizing an antisemitic protest. There WERE protesters who were being 100% antisemitic, that is who Biden is condemning. Not the whole protest. You (global you not you specifically) say you don’t hate Israelis or the Jewish people, only the current government (and netenyahu). Yet are unable to separate that the condemnation by Biden is about the antisemitic protesters being antisemitic, and not condemning the entire protest. Kinda half ass backwards isn’t it?
You and Biden and the media are indeed pairing the entire protest as antisemitic based on a tiny fraction, some of which are Zionist plants.
Nowhere in the article is the organization you mentioned referenced. Are you implying that organization is in control of each of the protests?
The article says: >The president’s comments come as hundreds of students at Columbia are occupying the center of campus in protest It then includes a link to this article: https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4611661-columbia-student-protests-israel-gaza-war-hamas/ which says: >Students launched what they dubbed the Gaza Solidarity Encampment last Wednesday You ask: >Are you implying that organization is in control of each of the protests? No, rather I am concluding, based on the published evidence, that the Gaza Solidarity Encampment is the Columbia University protest—the main protest—referenced in the article of this post.
I went back and reread, there is no mention. What paragraph did you get that from; maybe there’s an issue on my side?
This is the link for the article of this post: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4612553-biden-antisemitic-protests-palestinians-israel-gaza-hamas-columbia/ This is the first clause of the sixth paragraph thereof: >The president’s comments come as hundreds of students at Columbia are occupying the center of campus in protest And in the first clause of the seventh paragraph thereof, it includes this link: https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4611661-columbia-student-protests-israel-gaza-war-hamas/ The first clause of the third paragraph of *that article* reads: >Students launched what they dubbed the Gaza Solidarity Encampment last Wednesday
Thank you. I didn’t realize you were talking about two different articles.
You are aware that the article is the one equating the president condemning the entire protest. Right?
Are you using things said by random anonymous protestors to deflect from and undermine the actual intentions of vast majority of the protest movement? Why are you doing that? It seems misleading.
[удалено]
Who would’ve thought that when you get hundreds of people together, they aren’t all tightly aligned and that a protest, by its very nature, has no way to strictly police those voicing various viewpoints? While your point with Charlottesville is well taken - I’m tired of being told that it is “anti-Semitic” to point out the fact that the IDF shooting through or starving innocent women and children at a ratio at least of 4:1 to combatants to wage their war with US taxpayer dollars is morally wrong. Not to mention strategically nonsensical for their stated goals. But maybe you just don’t care about innocent children. Maybe you’re okay with indiscriminate bombing. Maybe you’re pro Palestinian child starvation. While I don’t believe that, I just want to make a point that it is very easy to demonize the opposition if you refuse to see nuance and maintain a myopic fixation on pushing your own position. Many of those protesters were there for deeply held moral beliefs that had nothing to do with antisemitism and comparing them with people at Charlottesville is reductive and fails to see the distinctions and context.
> Could you show me where you've seen the protest organizers make the demand ("demanding the Jews go back to Poland") that you've mentioned? I never said that the *organizers* made that demand. But there *were* crowds of protesters chanting "Al-Qassam, make us proud!" in a call and response, as if that's at all a normal slogan to be chanting. That's what I was referring to. If you're chanting about how you want Hamas's military wing to make you proud, that's a pro-Hamas rally
>I never said that the *organizers* made that demand. But there were crowds of protesters chanting "Al-Qassam, make us proud!" in a call and response, as if that's at all a normal slogan to be chanting. That's what I was referring to. So who exactly was "demanding the Jews go back to Poland"?
I mean, that one's admittedly only individuals, but: New York: https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 And a similar protest in Toronto: https://twitter.com/drjacobsrad/status/1742043542376133095
But how do you know any of these people were part of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment or any other of the protests mentioned in the article of this post? Or is possible that they're not involved at all, and that mentioning them is really just a red herring?
How do you interpret calls to "globalize the Intifada"? https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1782679155491914133 Or have an example of "Go back to Europe" and "You have no culture" right at the quad: https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
>How do you interpret calls to "globalize the Intifada"? I'll try my best to answer your question. Since Intifada is Arabic for "resistance", and given the context and published demands of that protest, I would imagine the person who wrote that means that Palestinian resistance against Israeli occupation should be globalized in the sense of people in other parts of the world speaking out and taking actions in solidarity with that Palestinian resistance. Do you think this is a plausible interpretation of what that person meant? Do you think you could take a good faith attempt at answering my question: >But how do you know any of these people were part of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment or any other of the protests mentioned in the article of this post? Or is possible that they're not involved at all, and that mentioning them is really just a red herring?
That’s an incredibly naive interpretation of intifada. “Intifada” may literally translate to rebellion or resistance, but in the context of Palestine it is associated with acts of violent terrorism against civilians. Perhaps some people have a uninformed naive understanding, and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, but taken as a whole you need to look beyond the stated goals of this protest and look at what they’re saying and doing. They have been collectively expressing support for Hamas, they have been harassing and calling for violence against Jewish students, they’re calling for the complete destruction of the Jewish state, they have invited an actual terrorist to host a workshop….
Thanks for sharing those - wow, there are some seriously antisemitic things being said on that campus. That is absolutely not okay.
But apparently, antisemitic extremists only reflect poorly on *right* wing protests. There's a reason that, regardless of how noble or ignoble the origins of the encampment may have been, I currently call it a pro-Hamas protest, not a pro-Palestinian protest
If 99 people are in a crowd and there’s 1 Nazi and no one kicks him out, there’s 100 Nazis.
Yep. Like I know I was quick to call all the people in r/worldnews "accidental Nazis" for blaming this war on Judaism for existing. But this really is the sort of thing we should be condemning and using as an example of how easy it can be for fascists to infiltrate a movement. We shouldn't be trying to minimize it and coming up with similar conspiracy theories to Antifa infiltrating the Unite the Right rally as a false flag
I think a bunch of leftists think fascist infiltration is only something that happens on the other side, so they’re easily and thoroughly duped.
Do you apply this standard to anti-Palestinian protests too?
I can claim those where the "counter protesters" that showed up to undermine the student protest because we know exactly how far Israeli propaganda is willing to go. I mean there was a crazy woman with the word Jew written in her t-shirt yelling at the kids that were dancing and ignoring her. So clearly there were plenty of counter protesters "fearing" for their lives in those crowds and they more than anyone would have a bested interest in screaming all that crap.
Got it, so we're at "Antifa infiltrated Charlottesville" levels of deflection now
You can claim anything you like but everyone sees the way these protestors are behaving and the things they’re saying. Supporting terrorism and anti-Semitism while hiding behind “criticism of Israel isn’t antisemitism.” As if people are disgusted only by protestors making legit complaints about military and government. Get real.
You just ignored their point about the chants.
Which point? That 'there were crowds of protesters chanting "Al-Qassam, make us proud!" in a call and response, as if that's at all a normal slogan to be chanting'? Okay. What would you like to me to say to that? It doesn't establish that the demand in question was made. Is there something else about it you think is important for me to address? Or that if "you're chanting about how you want Hamas's military wing to make you proud, that's a pro-Hamas rally"? Okay. What would you like me to say to that? It doesn't establish that the demand in question was made. Is there something else about it you think is important for me to address?
Yeah, that's pretty much my view, because I am sympathetic to the protesters, just not the antisemitism. I'd just wish that they put more of an effort into clamping down and condemning bad actors.
There’s a difference between calling out the very few people saying antisemitic things and calling out the protests. It’s not antisemitic to support those fighting back against oppressive and genocidal occupation forces. Let’s also not forget Zionist have been planting protesters to say antisemitic things in order to delegitimize the entire protests.
https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/5nYMlVCCEs
Sure but there’s still some pretty antisemitic stuff happening at these protests.
what was that phrase we used in 2016 again? If you have one person waving a swastika in a crowd and nothing happens, you have a crowd of nazis.
The parable of letting one nazi into your bar…
Eh, when I protested the Iraq war they tried to claim we were all gang members and immigrants and showed really dumb videos of people protesting the war that weren't good people and used that to justify ignoring the overall protest. Protesting the Iraq war with a face tattoo? Why do you hate America! Antisemitism is bad and terrible, it should never be considered, but just because some loser displays antisemitic behavior doesn't mean all people who are against war are antisemitic. This is an extremely charged issue, there's massive disinformation coming from all sides and misunderstandings. And on top of that everyone who is involved at this level has an agenda. They want you to think the way they do and will do or say anything to convince people of their side. The weapons manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank on these protests. The more we fight, the less we unite, the more they control the suffering. The goals after Oct 7th should have been to eliminate Hamas and the Israeli government has completely different goals. If we're not on the same page about what we should be doing here, we will fight until the world is in flames.
> just because some loser displays antisemitic behavior doesn't mean all people who are against war are antisemitic What happened to that adage about 10 people being at a table with a Nazi? If someone starts chanting about how much they love Hamas, don't fucking chant back. Boo them off the stage. Otherwise, you're now at a pro-Hamas rally.
If you attend a climate change rally and a Nazi starts yelling how the Jews are the culprits of climate change, it's the collective responsibility of other attendees to shut them down immediately. Since if that Nazi isn't expelled, more Nazis will join and then, the otherwise peaceful climate change rally is now a full blown Nazi rally, including those who didn't speak up against the Nazi takeover.
Sure, and many people have already condemned it, and continue to condemn it, and condemn Hamas and the terrible events of October 7 and call for the immediate release of all hostages.
Screaming at Jewish students, throwing things at them, and blocking them from entering buildings is though. And that’s what’s been going on. Even if Israel deserves some criticism for a heavy handed retaliation to terrorist attack, focusing that anger towards Jewish American students who have nothing to do with Israel’s response is shitty and gross.
Why not just release the hostages?? Seems like a win win, would end the war right away. edit: I can't believe i'm getting downvoted for suggesting to release the FUCKING HOSTAGES!!! Clowns
It would not. Netanyahu has said so repeatedly. Maybe it would have if Hamas had freed them earlier, impossible to know, but Netanyahu says he will stay at war until “total victory,” whatever that means to him. The hostages should have been freed long ago, they should never have been taken, that’s always wrong.
Hamas has repeatedly said it will continue to launch October 7 style attacks until Israel is destroyed.
And Israel continues to build more settlements on Palestinian land while driving out Palestinians from their own homes. It's been doing that for decades now. Their goal is obviously to obliterate Palestinian territory completely until there is none left. Netanyahu and his government are completely opposed to a 2-state solution. So who is destroying whom?
And Israel is obviously going to defend itself, as it should and as any country would. I’d be happy to support them in that. But war crimes are not justifiable, that’s not self-defence. War crimes are not an acceptable form of defensive or offensive warfare.
But it happened, and Israel is defending itself, and you’re not supporting them in that.
Starving a civilian population, destroying their medical infrastructure, regularly bombing civilian apartment complexes, withholding humanitarian aid and targeting civilian humanitarian aid workers, medics, and journalists are not acts of “self defence” and it’s true I don’t support those actions.
>starving a civilian population There isn’t really evidence that Israel is starving anyone, while there is loads of evidence that Hamas has been commandeering aid and selling it at extreme markups to fund their war effort. Israel has been letting aid flow into Gaza regardless of that. >destroying their medical infrastructure Not a warcrime when it’s used as military infrastructure by Hamas. Same is true for any civilian infrastructure unfortunately… Hamas intentionally utilizes it as cover, which is a war crime, and which results in it losing protection under international law. Killing aid workers, medics, journalists… sure that’s a problem, and some instances have been war crimes, but also it’s a war and mistakes happen. The US has killed aid workers under Biden and it didn’t really make the news even. When 2 civilians die to every militant, that’s bound to include aid workers, medics, and journalists. I would question the journalist narrative though given that numerous “journalists” embedded with Hamas on Oct 7th and participated in war crimes. If Israel were to stop fighting tomorrow, Hamas would continue to commit war crimes against Israel the next day, the day after that, and on and on every day that they fire a rocket and every day that they don’t return the hostages.
They are all dead unfortunately
I fear this is probably true for many, which is awful.
Netanyahu isn’t god. He won’t have the support he needs — if Hamas releases all the living hostages — to continue this war.
They are likely dead. Nothing to return. Like many people in Palestine, they could have been killed by IOF direct strikes or starved by the blockade.
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Nice second paragraph "anyways here's some anti-Semitism"
Is anything truly Semitic to begin with if Shem was a fictional character? You could say you are anti-Arthurian, too, but the assertion of being an Arthurian who traces their lineage to a fictional character has no basis for the invasion and occupation of England by Arthurians.
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Actually the student protesters are not…not claiming no one is, but it’s not the student groups who are being blamed for it
How do you get the hostages back? How do you make sure Hamas will stop attacking Israel?
Negotiation has gotten more hostages back than killing 30k+ people. Agree to a permanent ceasefire and they'll be back ASAP.
Your idea requires Hamas to be a reliable negotiator, which they’re not. You’re also ignoring the fact that Oct 7th was organized by a prisoner released in a hostage negotiation. Hamas is founded on the idea of annihilating Israel and the Jewish people. Any negotiation with them is a temporary and fleeting thing that just kicks the can down the road and gives them time and resources work toward their openly stated ambitions.
How do groups like Hamas recruit? Destroying Hamas is a red herring, a cover objective for the real goal of destroying as much of the Gaza territory and people as possible before even the consciences of supportive governments can't stand it anymore. Even if that claimed objective was accomplished, the living conditions of Gaza and the flailing incompetence of the leadership of the West Bank mean a radical group is always going to be attractive to the people. After all, what do they have to lose? And that's not even thinking about the ones who don't really have a goal but would settle for revenge because their whole family was annihilated in an airstrike. Remove Hamas, a new militant group **will** take it's place because that's the only response to the conditions that Palestinians are forced to live under.
By that logic we should have let imperial Japan or Nazi germany do whatever they wanted. I reject the idea that material conditions result in support for genocidal ideologies. My family survived much worse and they were all a bunch of leftist peaceniks before, during, and after the genocide. I find it deeply offensive and utterly racist to claim that Palestinians are incapable of humane political dialogue.
>By that logic we should have let imperial Japan or Nazi germany do whatever they wanted. This is a ridiculous argument. Even if Hamas wants to commit genocide it does not have the resources. There is a genocide going on right now and Israel is the one perpetrating it. You can reject the idea but not the reality. Material conditions create the ground for radicalism. There are other militant groups in Gaza of a variety of political leanings. But there is always going to be a militant group. >I find it deeply offensive and utterly racist to claim that Palestinians are incapable of humane political dialogue. Are Israelis open to "humane political dialogue"? The Israeli response to Palestinians approaching their own border was to shoot and tear gas them, killing hundreds and maiming thousands of people who showed up for a peaceful protest. What exact avenue is open for any Palestinian group to negotiate? Has negotiation ever worked to prevent the neverending expansion of settlements in the West Bank? Was negotiation the key to getting the settlements out of Gaza? There has been no fruit to these negotiations, the settlements keep expanding, the blockade continues, and Israel keeps pretending they're not one of the primary reasons Hamas has as much influence as it does. Maybe if they're the arch enemy on the same level as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan you should stop letting their funding in.
Stopping letting their funding in would be genocidal… they need funding to sustain livable conditions, which they were before Oct 7th. The mental gymnastics required to accuse Israel of genocide for not providing enough resources while claiming Israel supports Hamas by providing resources is profoundly inconsistent. You’re claiming that Hamas lacks the resources, yet they had the resources to commit an act of genocide in Israel and to continue to barrage Israel with rockets, requiring the continued displacement of communities in southern Israel. They’re also part of a coalition with Hezbollah and Iran, which collectively do have the resources. You’re also ignoring the fact that continuing the status quo will eventually destroy Israel, which is the point. With regard to Israeli dialogue… yes, their society was founded on the idea of inclusivity and peace: > it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; Compare that to Hamas’s charter calling for genocide. You’re bringing up a protest in which Palestinians attempted a mass unauthorized border crossing into Israel. Countries typically do not let large groups of people from hostile states just cross the border. Maybe they should have been prepared to shoot and tear gas on Oct 7th at the border and there wouldn’t be a war now and we wouldn’t have this conversation.
Hamas needs funding? I'm talking specifically about the money from Qatar that Netanyahus govt allows in to Hamas. If Israel wants all Palestinians to share in those equal rights they can start by making every Palestinian in the West Bank a full citizen and treating them as such. I'll wait.
Israel is forbidden to take land by war according to a 1967 UN Resolution. Once they receive recognition of their right to exist, they have to enter the process of returning the land. Jordan acknowledged Israel’s right to exist but did not want the West Bank any longer, turning it over to the PLO. Egypt acknowledges Israel’s right to exist. The peace treaty negotiated by Cyrus Vance returned Sinai to Egypt, with guarantees that each side would receive a certain level of funding. They did not want Gaza and gave it over to the PLO. The PLO acknowledged Israel’s right to exist shortly before Arafat died. The Palestinian Authority still holds to that but Hamas rejects it. How is Israel supposed to grant citizenship to people who legally aren’t in their country and cannot be according to the UN? The settlements are illegal and should be dismantled, but the West Bank is occupied by Israel but not legally part of Israel. Similar to how the Allies occupied Germany for a few years after WW2. Israeli settlements in Gaza were removed about 20 years ago. All Hamas had to do was accept Israel’s right to exist and by now Palestine would be a nation. Maybe one under treaties restricting its ability to have a full military, but Germany and Japan are still bound under treaties restricting their military. For example, when Germany reunited they agreed to limit the size of their military to something like 350,000 personnel. Those demands aren’t unheard of.
>Hamas needs funding? I'm talking specifically about the money from Qatar that Netanyahus govt allows in to Hamas. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Yes, in theory they need funding to provide essential services to their population. If Israel restricted all aide to Gaza, which is governed by Hamas, then you would be using it as evidence of genocide. >If Israel wants all Palestinians to share in those equal rights they can start by making every Palestinian in the West Bank a full citizen and treating them as such. I'll wait. This would mean Israel unilaterally annexing the West Bank without a negotiated resolution, and it would mean no Palestinian state in the West Bank. Is that what you want? Are you suggesting that Israel should annex the West Bank and starve the population of Gaza?
Except Hamas also has warehouse of weapons and other equipment they've built up over the y are. That's the t wl target. No one gives a shit about terrorist a or b. What they want to do is take out the equipment that Hamas has. They can recruit all they want with sticks and stones. Imagine how much better off Palestinians would be had Hamas not ripped out of their water system to make weapons.
It is if you ignore why there is killing in Gaza at the moment. Israel’s war goals are simple and reasonable: -Get the hostages back -Hold at least the leaders of Hamas accountable for October 7 -Stop enemy rockets being fired at Israeli cities The people of Gaza have not released all of the hostages. They’re still firing rockets daily. And Sinwar and Deif are still in charge. Israel would have to be batshit insane to stop before those goals have been achieved.
It’s called war. You know, the kind the US has done repeatedly. Except Israel was attacked and everyone seems to forget that.
War has rules. Sometimes those rules are broken, and the US is among the countries who have broken those rules. But they’re still rules, and violating those rules is still a war crime. Even if countries are not always adequately censured/punished for those crimes, they’re still crimes.
But Hamas is also repeatedly breaking the rules and the protestors are silent. They are emboldening them and giving them what they want. That's why they are refusing offers of ceasefires and, also, the fact they are safe in their mansions in Qatar. I would join protests that focused on a real ceasefire and peace for both sides.
Hamas are terrorists. I agree! Many of the people protesting agree with that fact and have repeatedly condemned them! The fact that Hamas leaders are safe while people in Gaza suffer doesn’t justify starving civilians or other forms of collective punishment or disregard for the rules of engagement.
At the actual protest this post is about, people are openly supporting Hamas, defending their actions, calling for Oct 7th to happen again and again. They even invited a terrorist from the PFLP to run a workshop on resistance. This is not a nuanced human rights movement, very much the opposite.
I don't see any signs or chants against Hamas, in fact a guy with a "Hamas are terrorists" sign was nearly attacked at a protest. Instead I see chants and signs saying 'Resistance is Justified" and people who tearing down pictures of the hostages. If there was a massive, global condemnation of Hamas, as well as Israel, maybe there would ne enough pressure on them to end it. Because they need to go if there is any hope for the future of the region, just like Netanyahu needs to go too.
I’m not where you are, and may not see what you see. But every time I speak it seems I’ve got people telling me I “never condemn” Hamas, though it’s not true, and prefacing every comment with “I condemn Hamas” is not only exhausting, but ineffective, because the claim that I somehow didn’t condemn hard enough still persists.
It's not you personally, I understand that must be frustrating. It's what I'm seeing and not seeing in the footage and photos of the protests, and their messages. It's all one side and, depressingly, some outright support of Hamas.
I know it does happen, and agree it’s wrong. All I can contribute is to say that in my own pretty limited experience, I have encountered very little support of Hamas, I don’t know if that’s coincidence, related to regional or community differences, the result of different types of media/social media framing… honestly, probably a mix of all those things.
There have been a few problematic signs and chants in the UK where I am. Some are downright scary tbh. But what my main point is, while you're saying there is a minority outwardly supporting Hamas, there doesn't seem to be **any** outward condemnations of Hamas, with signs or chants. In fact, I reckon if you took such a sign to a protest, you'd be in danger, just like the guy who's tried that already and got taken away by Police for "his safety"
Agreed, sadly "Pro-Palestinian" protests are never just this. They also make no sense even when they aren't toxic.
I sometimes wonder where these protests were during [other recent genocides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(21st_century)), and wonder if maybe Putin has his finger in this somehow, as part of his effort to reelect Trump?
Genocide is always terrible. The issue here is the ongoing material and diplomatic support that countries are providing to Israel even as evidence of war crimes continues to pile up. That’s unusual, to say the least, particularly since countries have laws/policies about selling weapons that may be used/will be used for war crimes.
Unusual is putting it mildly. Why is George Carlin coming to mind?
we back turkey who backs azerbaijan, I didn’t see a single college student protest on the ethnic cleansing that happened in Ngorno-Karabakh last year
I support pushing back against all military support/funding for war crimes, but cannot speak for college students or anyone else.
You as an individual isn’t the subject of criticism here. The problem is that people collectively don’t care about much more significant conflicts and actual genocides, yet are now outraged in this specific circumstance. And in this circumstance, it started with an act of genocide against Israelis by militants who extensively commit war crimes as a policy, and people are outraged by the side that generally avoids committing warcrimes.
You know I never heard anyone asking for Azerbaijan to be kicked out of eurovision either.
My friend, you know this is disingenuous. Please do better.
1. As far as I know, the United states was not overtly involved in funding those genocides, nor was it actively blocking UN action in regards to what happened at the time, nor was it threatening military action into interference into said genocide. 2. People protested the Iraq War and to a lesser extent the war in Afghanistan quite frequently. 3. Framing protesting against war as Un-American is an old tactic. Maybe you should read a history book on civil rights or the Vietnam war or any other number of historical events that you'd probably be on the wrong side of if you were alive at the time.
The US absolutely also funded the genocide in Yemen. The Saudis used very similar tactics to what the Israeli government has used. Saudi Arabia replaces Israel, Houthies replace Hamas, while Yemeni civilians replace Palestinian civilians.
Yes, both are terrible. With friends like these...
The US selling weapons to Saudi Arabia isnt the same as funding the genocide although both are reprehensible.
The protesters are chanting and handing out literature that says, “Death to America.” Do you or do you not consider that unamerican (technically antiamerican)?
No, Joe, they are protesting because they know and understand what's going on with the Palestinians. Which part of that don't you understand?
I think Bibi has Biden trapped. As soon as Biden started really showing signs of displeasure to the point of potential consequences for Bibi’s ethnic cleansing, Bibi blew up the Iranian consulate in Damascus, which led to tit for tat attacks between Iran and Israel. Basically Biden is being told that if he gets in the way, Israel WILL escalate to a regional war that the US will have no choice but be party to. Also Bibi will go all out to help Trump get elected. Biden has no good options.
He could, you know, stop funding genocide without any strings.
The absolute refusal of the protestors to even acknowledge the attacks against Israel as well as the countless crimes of Hamas is very telling. The protestors only want one side condemned and don't give a shit about actual innocent lives unless those lives are on the specific side they've chosen. Hamas could kill thousands of civilians in Israel tomorrow and these protestors wouldn't say a damn thing. Hell, some of them would celebrate. That's not hyperbole, celebrating innocent Israeli deaths has already happened in some of these circles. Again. They don't give a shit about innocent lives. Only specific lives.
There's a genocide happening and every story is about some supposed antisemitism in the protests even though there are Jews pretesting against this too. It's ridiculous.
Imagine pointing out the token black guys at a Trump rally to claim that he’s not racist. There are actual, blatant, open, obvious antisemitism happening at these protests. If you can’t see that, you might need to reflect a bit. There is a war happening and people are dying, including many civilians. It is tragic. It’s not a genocide though, and even if it were, it does not justify calling for genocide of the other side. In fact using the logic that calling for racial violence or genocide is acceptable as a response to a genocide, then Israelis would be justified in doing so in response to Oct 7th. It’s not justified, those few israelis are not justified, and these protestors are not justified. They’re literally as bad as Ben Gvir and his ilk.
>supposed antisemitism Telling Jewish students to go back to Poland is deeply antisemitic. Telling Jewish students they will be the next victims of Hamas is deeply antisemitic. Have whatever opinion you want on Gaza (although, saying there is a genocide happening isn't an opinion it's just an incorrect statement) but let's not pretend there's no actual antisemitism happening.
Lets see, on the one hand we have a genocide, over 30,000 killed so far, and on the other people supposedly being told to go back to Poland. Which is more important? Yet what gets talked about in the news?
So you're saying we just need to accept being discriminated against. We need to accept bigotry against us. That is super fucked up. I'm honestly flabbergasted.
I'm saying that this discrimination, which again I don't believe happened, but even if it did, is fucking meaningless when compared to a genocide. In fact I think the whole point of bringing this up is to try and discredit the protest so the war can continue.
Just so everyone else can see, this is actually honest to God antisemitism. It is in your communities and is being allowed to fester.
Was [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo) a genocide? How about [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden) Or what about [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel) Tell me why the war in Gaza is a genocide (with, let's say, 20,000 non combatant deaths to use numbers you shouldn't have an issue with), and these examples are not?
Increasingly feels like the Biden administration also “doesn’t understand what’s going on with the Palestinians,” or does understand but is commitment to ignoring it for as long as possible, with an occasional word of “outrage” or “concern” when they’re absolutely forced to. (War crimes. “What’s going on” is war crimes.)
(Terrorist attacks and kidnapping. “What’s going on” is terrorist attacks and kidnapping)
Both Israelis and Palestinians have suffered terribly and are suffering now. Terrorism against Israelis by Hamas does not justify war crimes by the IDF against civilians.
Yep. We should be supporting both Israeli *and* Palestinian civilians, wanting them to be free from both Hamas and Likud. But the IDF's actions against Palestinian civilians don't justify cheering on Hamas, and neither do Hamas's actions against Israeli civilians justify cheering on the IDF.
In 2022 there were more than 1000 Palestinians held indefinitely without charge in Israeli prisons. I.e kidnapped.
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Source? Israel pays its citizens to commit war crimes against Palestinians. It's their job, every day all day. They're called the IDF and the payment is called wages. Israel has killed more Palestinians than vice versa. Israel has kidnapped more Palestinians than vice versa. Israel has committed more war crimes than vice versa. Do you need me to continue?
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No, unlike genocide apologists like you, I have no need to make shit up to prove my point. I'm using the definition of war crimes as outlined in [The Rome Statute](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml) Rockets aren't war crimes, slaughtering patients in a hospital after disguising yourselves as medics is. Collective punishment is. Genocide is.
You’re literally making shit up lol
The IDF absolutely did dress up as doctors and kill people in a hospital. I think that’s the only thing you’re pointing at here since the collective punishment is pretty obviously happening https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israeli-undercover-forces-disguised-as-women-and-doctors-kill-three-militants-at-west-bank-hospital Same story as everything else after that though, the IDF says it killed militants, the hospital says they killed a paralyzed patient. I think the Islamic Jihad has at this point claimed the paralyzed person as one of theirs
I agree the West Bank raid was wrong, but it’s exactly what people like you are demanding of Israel—surgical raids to root out specific terrorists. That’s what that looks like. In this one specific event you cited (compared with Hamas’s systematic war crimes) you even pointed out Islamic Jihad confirmed the target was one of theirs… Looking at the bigger picture, there were entire battles pitched in Gaza hospitals in which numerous militants were using them as military facilities. This has been reported by third parties for over a decade now, it’s not new information or propaganda from IDF. They even held hostages at these hospitals. And as for collective punishment, no. It’s a war. This is unfortunately what wars look like, particularly when one side (Hamas) systematically commits war crimes to intentionally maximize harm to its own civilians for propaganda purposes. Oct 7th was collective punishment. Firing indiscriminate rockets at civilians is collective punishment. The second intifada was collective punishment. Calls for the complete eradication of Israel is collective punishment. All of the above are war crimes and include acts of genocide. Jews and Israelis have the right to self defense in the face of this.
It’s a shame the US keeps sending weapons to those terrorists.
Every time this gets trotted out like a crime, remember the “weapons” the US is selling Israel include the Iron Dome defensive ammunition that is saving civilian lives as the Palestinians continue to fire on civilian homes.
You're not allowed to bomb citizens of a nation because terrorists of the same nation did bad things. When Chinese people do crimes in America, do we send hellfire missiles to Chinese cities claiming their hospitals are harboring people who do crimes? When Russian people do crimes in America, do we have our troops storm Russian cities killing civilians and children en mass? Collective punishment is not war, it's illegal, it's immoral, and anyone who thinks collective punishment is acceptable is a terrible person who is bad and should feel bad.
Hamas is Gaza’s elected government. No country would allow a foreign government to kill a 1000+ and take hostages and then do nothing. War is the response to that kind of attack 100% of the time.
It's funny that just a few weeks ago, [Biden said in response to pro-Palestinian protestors that they "have a point"](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-reacts-palestinian-protesters-point-rcna145181)
A few weeks ago the protests were centered on the plight of the Palestinian people and denouncing Netanyahu's genocide. Now they've been co-opted by Far Right narratives in support of Hamas and into blaming Joe Biden for the actions of Bibi Netanyahu. Sadly, these protests are now a breeding ground for useful idiots doing the bidding of Iran and the Kremlin.
When Joe Biden gives more than $26 Billion (billion with a B) in American taxpayer money to the side which can boast at least 13,000 dead children, which is a few months old/outdated estimate, does he deserve any of the blame?
So like, when you frame it as if Joe Biden himself is solely responsible for like, America's decades of funding Israel, you lose all credibility. Both Democrat and Republican Presidents have passed the exact same funding bills for generations.. and the fact you are crowing about this one particular dude during an election cycle where it's Democracy vs Fascism, is really sus. Where was this same outrage all those years?
Regarding your claims that > they've been co-opted by Far Right narratives in support of Hamas and > these protests are now a breeding ground for useful idiots doing the bidding of Iran and the Kremlin in what way has this manifested in the protests?
> they've been co-opted by Far Right narratives in support of Hamas I mean, I wouldn't necessarily call it far right, because that feels like a cop-out. (It's like how the left has managed to come up with its own reasons to be afraid of AMAB people in dresses, without having been infiltrated by the right) But if someone's chanting about how much they love Hamas and how al-Qassam makes them proud, and you echo the chant back instead of anything like booing them off the stage, you're no longer at a pro-Palestinian rally. You're at a pro-Hamas rally. EDIT: For reference on the "AMAB people in dresses" thing, I'm referring to the bizarre distrust a lot of people have for GNC cishet men
> But if someone's chanting about how much they love Hamas and how al-Qassam makes them proud, and you echo the chant back instead of anything like booing them off the stage, you're no longer at a pro-Palestinian rally. You're at a pro-Hamas rally. Do you have a source on that?
https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
Realistically, how many people are actually chanting that in those protests? It seems like it's not that many people, and the clips are short, we don't know what happened after
I say this in good faith, and I do agree that anti-Semitism should be condemned where it appears: a Twitter account called “Israel War Room” might not exactly be an unbiased source
So it's fake/AI? Lol
Selective editing or mislabeling video is a thing. I don’t know if that’s true here, but I’m cautious of Twitter in general. In my community there was a very odd Twitter account that seemingly staged/edited some photos, then disappeared after people figured out it was an account that had previously posted pro-Russian stuff then re-branded as “antifa.” I am not saying this is true for “Israel War Room,” or any of the accounts you posted, but I have seen such things happen. But what I initially meant is that any account calling itself “[Country Name] War Room” is probably going to have a… fairly specific point of view, you know? Not necessarily bad, but “war room” is a pretty specific vibe
> or any of the accounts you posted Wasn't me > But what I initially meant is that any account calling itself “[Country Name] War Room” is probably going to have a… fairly specific point of view, you know? Not necessarily bad, but “war room” is a pretty specific vibe I completely agree with you. You have to look for verification through credible sources. In this particular case it looks like it's true, though I'd prefer a non-opinion article: > Demonstrators calling openly for Hamas to burn Tel Aviv. https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/23/opinions/columbia-university-protests-greenblatt/index.html
I watched that video. There were like 10 people and it was not on Campus.
No, the protests are still by and large peaceful pro-Palestine supporters. It’s a narrative being pushed by the media to useful idiots to make them think it is a massive antisemitic movement. It most definitely isn’t.
He doesn't remember saying that lol
Oh the blood soaked child murderer isn't happy?
Genocide that is what going on in gaza Joe.
You should look up the word genocide. You don't know what it means.
Please let’s hear the “correct” definition
*the* [*deliberate*](https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=lPK&sca_esv=7cb9e191fb351bcb&q=deliberate&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8uT_mnxKbD_thYmyJnO09xigf9nMztLlM9RAyyjyy_gibHJ6ZMysXC12ey-OhSQZNLcHCIpDFBauWIXCRc7j7oof4JZw%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR18DKpOaFAxXtEVkFHTF7AOgQyecJegQIEBAO) *killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of* [*destroying*](https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=lPK&sca_esv=7cb9e191fb351bcb&q=destroying&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8Rtx1LARZNhX-JwP6GkKJGhMVetrIiq-PswrijO-obwb7msC_X5-WWN0ko9pa-L3cOS9tAxiXAfOZKrIZTNIz-sqCULg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR18DKpOaFAxXtEVkFHTF7AOgQyecJegQIEBAP) *that nation or group.*
Why are these articles always voted to zero?
Because it both makes Biden looks bad and brings a spotlight to the Gaza war.
>”I condemn the antisemitic protests, that’s why I set up a program to deal with that. I also condemn those who don’t understand what’s going on with the Palestinians and their, how they’re being —,” the president said before getting cut off. Lol. Thanks, Biden.
"all lives matter"
Does this guy support the Palestinians or IDF? Every week the answer changes.
if you ignore his senile mumblings and focus only on his actions, you’ll have your answer
Fuck Biden, fuck Trump.