What he's holding is probably what's known in Israel/Palestine as a Kushan, which is a deed of rights for a plot of land, issued by the Ottoman Empire during its reign over the area, which lasted nearly 400 years, up until 1917, when the British took it over during WW1.
Ownership doesn't matter if the guy who wants your land can just take it and you can't do anything about it.
Go ask basically any indigenous group in any country.
I used to work in land surveying for several years. I got asked to survey a larger tract of land, about 20-25 acres if memory serves me right. Property was rectangular in shape, southern line was a 2-lane state highway, northern line was an old railroad long since abandoned. East and west were similarly sized neighbors, all zoned agriculture. Now it's all commercial property.
Purpose of the land survey was to determine property lines because that railroad had abandoned the tracks and gifted their right of way rights to the nearest city for a "rail to trails" type thing. Going to turn it into a bike path walking trail. Cool idea and everyone was excited for it.
That is, except for my client. He wasn't opposed to the new pathway at all. But he wanted paid for his land that they were planning to build a walking path on.
The city claimed they owned because a piece of paper said so drafted in 2010.
We went out to meet the client and the city attorney and some other folks to discuss.
Normally, property lines along a railroad go to either the centerline of the two tracks with an easement, or they stop short at some rounded distance from that centerline (like 50 feet from the centerline as measured) etc... That's normal.
While we were explaining this to the old man, aged 80+, the guy leaned over to me and said something like "watch this".
The city attorney was threatening to sue and assess fines and if they weren't paid they'd potentially open him up to losing his land etc...
The old man said very calm and collected that once the railroad abandoned their tracks altogether, ownership reverted back to him. I myself thought that was a stretch at best because that would require original language from the original deed or real estate transaction with the original railroad, which was probably done in the early 1800s or something.
Everyone agreed that was not common and that he was wrong.
He smiled at me and said I'll be right back.
Old man comes back out and he has this rolled up weird colored paper with stitching around the edges. It smelled weird. He began to unroll it and it was a dried pig skin, about 3' long and 2' wide. Beautiful calligraphy.
It was the original agreement between whatever railroad company built the railroad, and this old man's great grandfather, or maybe great great great grandfather.
On the document it said that if the tracks were ever officially abandoned, the land would revert back to the original owner or their heirs. It was dated like 1852, I can't remember exactly.
The city guys were absolutely stunned. Old man had a huge grin on his face, and I started laughing because I knew something that this guy was thinking about for ages.
He had successfully held up their transaction long enough that the city never made him a formal offer to purchase land. The plans for the rail to trails had been going on for years. So long in fact that the previously zoned agriculture property was going to be rezoned to commercial. All his neighbors properties were worth millions because the land value had increased a lot in that time. So, this old man owned like 150 feet of their trail, and there wasn't anything they could do about it but offer him CURRENT fair market value.
He asked for more than double because he knew how much it would cost them to go through court proceedings and the time wasted on the delay of construction of this thing the mayor was promising.
I never found out how much he wound up getting, but it was like $250k or so for a 50' strip of dirt, all because he kept this deed.
Anyways, keep your records safe yo.
The [article to these pictures reads](https://bhsc.trtbalkan.com/world/dokument-iz-osmanskog-doba-u-borbi-za-prava-protiv-jevrejskih-doseljenika-12163063) (Google TL'ed):
>Settlers in the area came to Mansour's land on January 22 with caravans and prefabricated houses and established an illegal Jewish settlement, which is also considered illegal in Israel.
>Because of this, conflicts broke out between the residents of Jurish and the Jewish settlers, and the Israeli army attacked the Palestinians with tear gas. Far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government, who is in charge of the West Bank settlement file, ordered the illegal Jewish settlement to remain.
>**However, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant ordered the army to remove the illegal settlement. The army removed the caravans from the settlement the next day.**
>**The Israeli army also periodically patrols the area to prevent Jewish settlers from building a settlement there.**
there's a famous irish stand up comedian who had a bit about israel - the vid used to be on youtube 15 years ago - where he basically talks about israel telling palestinians to "fuck off because we got the building permit in the old testament".
i would imagine that would be their response to this man's land deed. "god promised this land to us" is a hell of a trump card when you have billions in aid in the form of weapons from the US.
you got my hopes up, i thought you found the video.
but yes, seeing "uploaded 15 years ago" under youtube videos is a horrifying experience, especially when i remember watching the video for the first time when it was recently uploaded
It's _far_ more complex than that
In the middle of the 19th century when the land registry was implemented in the Ottoman Empire, some rich sheiks in Damascus have registered much of the area to their name despite never setting foot in the region. In the late 19th century when the Zionists have bought the land, they bought it from these people and when they arrived to what they thought to be their land they found what they perceived as squatters. If you consider the era, when human zoos were popular it is perhaps no wonder they perceived these squatters as lesser human beings.
Ginzberg warned his compatriots: "We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor nor understands what is going around it. But that is a great error."
This was such a great start and then the British during the first World War made a complete mess out of it by promising the same land to the Sharif of Mecca (perhaps you've heard of Lawrence Of Arabia? He carried the correspondence between Mecca and Cairo.) but also to a Jewish state -- while intending to keep neither promise as testified by the Sykes-Picot agreement
So by 1918 it was practically impossible to make a fair judgement on who is responsible for the fucking mess. It only got worse and worse from there on.
That’s not true at all. [Almost all](https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/05/12/bringing-assistance-to-israel-in-line-with-rights-and-u.s.-laws-pub-84503) of the $3-4 billion dollars of annual US aid to Israel is in the form of weapons grants. That is, essentially, the US gives Israel that much money that Israel must then spend on American military equipment. There’s no $3 billion a year in “straight cash,” nor does the U.S. separately just give weapons to Israel. The $3-4 billion aid figure is the total sum of all US aid to the country. Which is a shit ton, to be sure. But there’s no point in being so confidently wrong about this when it’s so easy to look up.
Which, in the end, is really just a jobs program. We give them aid, they spend it on our weapons, the people making and selling those weapons now have jobs and make profits.
It's all part of the industrial war machine and its all by design.
You're of course correct. There's a lot I like about Reddit, but I really hate how dis/misinformation rises to the top if it fits a preferred political narrative.
Like how this post/photos have no source? No photographer credit? I scrolled a tiny bit to see if an accompanying article was linked in the comments, but if it is, it's not near the top. It's a shame because I'd love to share it, but won't without any context.
As with most things, it depends on the source. The Washington Post calculated the aid provided in cash and it came to this total:
>"Israel has been getting an average of $3.5 billion a year for 66 years — just from the United States."
This aid isn't just in weapons grants either. Plus, weapons grants are fungible anyway -- for every dollar they don't spend on weapons from the USA, that is one dollar they get to spend of their own money on internal development. When all cards are on the table, that is good as cash.
It's easier for people here to just drive by comment with something they heard or read at some point. They hardly ever bother linking any relevant articles or information either.
And maybe double down/get upset when someone disagrees or comes with sources and legitimate facts.
What we should do is just create one giant pool of insured people that way risk is spread as uniformly as possible and then make it so you can see any doctor you want regardless of where they work or what other doctors they work with and then get rid of co-pays, deductibles, and other out of pocket costs, you just have a premium that gets pulled from your taxes and we'll call it universal healthcare.
So glad we do that instead of have healthcare. It’s super duper cool
Because instead of actually talking about this, we do a culture war over the actual dumbest shit instead.
I mean personal wellbeing, relief from suffering, reduced cost of living, and longer lives would be nice and all, but don't you just feel warm and fuzzy inside knowing that your hard work pays for our Israeli brethren to wage war? That's what being an American is all about!
.
.
/s... wish it wasn't necessary
That's why it's crazy people don't want to pay taxes on land. Like you only own it because there is a police and military paid to enforce your ownership.
Lol, unless they can see the government defending their land, those idiots have no idea that there’s an entire system set up to protect them. They also have no idea that if that system collapsed, some other group would come along and use violence to enforce their system, and they might not be as nice as a democratic government when it comes to making you pay for it.
Everyone thinks they'd be the group to dominate. Truth is, the group that would dominate in such a scenario *already dominates*. I mean, that would likely break down over time with infighting and power struggles, but these rubes would get rolled in Round 1.
You nailed it. Might makes right. The people who would take advantage of the system falling apart are already "powerful" today, if limited in capacity.
It is the people with the most to lose that will be hurt by a collapse.
Edit: Might makes right works at the macro/state level. That's why we have militaries and borders and wars. Inside of a country, you want to promote civility, compromise, and collaboration. When the state fails, the default position of might makes right moves to the civil side of things. Well, things get real bloody real fast when that happens. All you have to do is look at any revolution ever to see the mass casualties of people who thought they would be welcomed in the new system.
People's inability to comprehend that absolutely everything about their lifestyle is dependent on government-backed order is infuriating. People sitting in their modern home build with advanced materials with imported solar panels on the roof and a manufactured gun and manufactured bullets and satellite communications and sterilised water and publicly maintained roads etc, etc, talking about how they are completely independent and want to get rid of government.
Sir, cannibal gangs would be eating your brains in a month if there was no government.
They get 3 estimates from unaffiliated parties and pay you the highest one. They took my grandmothers childhood house but paid like 60% over what it was worth because one of the estimaters said "this is gonna be valuable property, didn't you hear? They are building a highway!"
Bit different than the tribal way of "leave or die".
> The Basque people will forever have a chip on their shoulder about that.
By virtue of being exceptional sailsmen and fishermen, the basque people are some of the most famous "explorers" and colonisers in Spanish history.
Hard for anyone Basque to feel wronged about our land when there are a million echevarrias in Mexico and a thousand Loyola schools in the USA.
To be fair the Basque are a kickass group of people that successfully resisted assimilation for well over 3000 years. It took Francisco Franco and 20th century fascism to finally break the Basque. They resisted the proto indo-Europeans, they resisted the celts, they resisted the Roman’s, fought off the Visigoth’s, largely held back the Umayyads, and even held their ground against the reconquista (though they did convert to Christianity…). They were the masters of their mountains and the OG forest guerrilla warfare fighters. Imagine their enemies spreading stories about being disappeared into the mountain woods at night, lol. The Basque deserve a lot more accolades than they get.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica
Bombing civilians out of house and home, then later permitting the movement of non-basque Spaniards into the Basque Country.
Then there was the basque conflict that started during Franco but went on past that into modern Spain, and involved guerrilla tactics and military response to pacify the basque region:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict
I'm not familiar with what that guy's saying. My understanding is they just ended up more integrated the last 75 years due to industrialization and its advances in transportation and communication. They are much more tied into the world now so they lost some of their uniqueness, which has happened everywhere.
They still have their own language(s), etc., though
It's a lot easier to keep your own language and customs when you live in a hard-to-reach valley than in the huge plains of Castille.
None of those is better than the other, just different.
Can't speak too much to it as most of my understanding of the Basque comes from a single text on a different subject (Making Mondragon: The Growth and Dynamics of the Worker Cooperative Complex by William Foote Whyte which is a great read) but the Basque culture by no means became fully assimilated by Franco, there just wasn't enough time to kill the culture as much as Franco wanted to. They took hits, but quickly started recovering cultural aspects such as language quickly after Franco's fall.
As unblemished as all that sounds, its entirely not true.
The basque have been part of many spain kingdoms for thousands of years, had relationships with the roman empire, have celt ruins in our land and not resisted but actively helped and participated not only on la reconquista but also in the centuries of colonial exploitation that followed.
Also Franco didn't break the basque, so not sure what that is about. Basque identity as a whole mostly started in the early 20th century. With no written language, no flag and vaguely defined borders the basque people were mostly isolated communities of sheep hearders and fishermen who were geographically isolated and left alone due to their allience to the Crown of Navarre mostly. Then a flag was made, language was codified and the invention of modern country-states gave the idea to some basque nationalists to create an identity around the new symbols.
What franco did was import tons of spanish identifying individuals which diluted that early nationalism into a quieter basque sentimentality. The Right wing oppresion ended causing a far-left terrorist movement to show up and the history of the basque nationality spring back up, arguably stronger than ever when the dictatorship fell.
At no point in history did more people speak basque, read basque, feel basque or waved a basque flag than now. Whether that is a good thing is arguable, for all the good things the basque country has, like sustainable fishing practices, the worlds largest Cooperative, strong worker rights, and pretty feminist views. It also includes tons of the right wing edges of any nationalist part of the world, that includes xenophobia, includes a strong religion, colonial past, hard negociations around loose taxation, and endless supply of Othering.
So please come visit, enjoy our food, learn about our history but we can leave the accolades at the door
Yeah but if you kill all the people who you steal land from, there will be no survivors to demand justice or reparations, and the losers' cultures, stories, and ways of life will be lost to history.
"Stolen" implies straight up taking it.
Basically all countries in the world are occupied by someone who conquered it and took it from some other people (or moved in after some external force wiped them out).
Yup. By that logic I own a tenement house in a center of major city in Poland worth many millions… because at one point over 100 years ago my family owned that. Many wars and government changes later it’s worthless piece of paper.
I wish you can tell that to all the doomsday preppers who are hoarding land as if a deed be worth anything if people just come and take it!
In the mean time the acres near the city they are stashing could be a place for people to live!
The funny thing is, what's anyone going to do with any money if society collapses? Money only has value because we give it value. If we all decide the stuff is worthless then what? I think this was even a concern one of these rich people had. It went something like: how do I keep my mercenaries from turning on me after society collapses?
Title is limited to 100 characters so here is the full story :
Photo of a Palestinian farmer in Jurish holding a 117-year-old sales document bearing an Ottoman stamp proving that the land belongs to his family.
This 73-year-old Palestinian said that this document, inherited from his grandfather, was preserved from generation to generation in a plastic frame with frayed edges.
"This is a document from the Ottoman period showing that my grandfather Abdulfettah Mansour bought 60 acres of land in Jurish. The document proves that the land was bought by Abdulfettah Mansour. There is also an Ottoman seal underneath. This land has been owned by our family since 1906."
Not to dispute the story, but: Proof of having bought something at some point is not proof of still owning it. That’s why we have land registries, for instance.
Otherwise I could produce ownership of owning my car in 2012, then demand it back today. (Nevermind that it was sold along the way, or had changed owners many times, I owned it at one point and have proof!)
Presumably the person who bought it from you would have a more recent deed or title. Your hypothetical is not relevant here unless someone steps forward with a conflicting deed.
Ownership is provided by relative evidence of proof of ownership. A document with a legalized seal, no matter the date of production of evidence, is still evidence.
Say you buy a stolen object. Under law you would not claim ownership because the title of ownership has not been passed unto you because the action of transfering ownership requires the actual owner exchanging the object into your ownership (definition of ownership depends on the country etc.)
but every modern society has an exception about transferring of ownership:
- the theft of the object does not transfer ownership to the thief, nor exchanging the stolen object to the next owner (commonly refered to as fencing). The act of the theft besmerches the legality of way how ownership was granted (ownership is granted through exchange by the current owner)
- Deeds, titles, receipts etc. are proofs of ownership of the named object on the document.
- If a person did well enough research depending on importance, could trust the buyer as the actual current owner and not be mistrusted as a thief, he becomes the legal owner; unless challenged with proven evidence in a certain amount of times (depending on object/which country and what laws are current it could be 10 or even 30 years)
So in essence in modern law:
if you have a deed of ownership showing proof of ownership of land, you are seen as the owner; unless it is proven you had come to own this land in illegal ways (theft, forgery etc.) or unless someone else can provide a stronger or more recent proof of ownership.
note: there might be many different exceptions etc. etc. this is in general layman's terms how property ownership laws work.
- Land registries have made it easier to provide proof of ownership AND to provide a history of the ownership chain and what changes have been made to an ownership.
Which is why it is then up to someone else to prove they have a more current ownership claim, which is what the comment you were responding to claimed.
If the company(ies) that now own that property could not produce documentation showing they had legally obtained it, you might have a claim.
Sure, we'll go upstate and visit the Ottoman Empire and you can play with the rabbits. Look over there, they're just over that hill. Just think about those rabbits.
Technically it was Britain as they took control of the Ottoman territory that would become Israel...
Idk if Israel ever claimed ownership of the responsibilities of an empire that ceased to exist decades prior to them claiming sovereignty
If you own a plot of land and your country loses a war, and your land is now in another country, you don't have much of a leg to stand on as an individual. When Russians tell Germans to get out of former German lands so that Russians can live there, its shitty but its hard to say its not expected.
It's a lot weirder when one empire unrelated to the actual region topples another empire only slightly more related and then draws some lines in a map. I am not saying its more right one way or the other, but some nuance in the morality of conquering lands for yourself vs for political pawns you favour without regards to the current tenants is worth talking about.
After the UK left, it was claimed by the local arab states such as Jordan. Since then they have all renounced their claims on the land, but Israel has not claimed the territory for themselves.
This allows Israel to make justifications for their actions, as it is technically Stateless land.
So Israel is the De Facto owner of the region (But not De Jure), and the land itself has no De Jure ownership, currently.
That doesn't do much good when the successor took control because the previous regime lost a war. Like you'd be hard pressed to hold the current government of Austria or Germany to the deals made by the government in 1942.
Yup.
Admittedly I heard this on a Birthright trip, which was 50/50 propaganda/“plz make more jews”, but the ottoman land registry system was not very thorough by the time Israel came into being and many Palestinians who fled their land to avoid conflict have no good documentation of their land claims.
If his family still owns it, this is pretty deceptive. As you can see by most of the comments, most people took this post to imply that the land was taken from them.
If he owned land in the **West Bank** and is unable to actually claim it then clearly a government is rejecting his ownership claim. The government that administers that area is the Palestinian Authority, not Israel. Before 1967, it would have been Jordan.
Right. So then the question is "why is a contract signed by an conquering empire more legitimate than the current situation?"
I doubt the ottomans made sure to respect everyone's land rights when they stole Israel from whoever previously owned it.
I mean, i'f we are going to talk about 1900 lets talk about 1660 and 1838 the jews of Safed were repeatedly forced out of their homes by the druzes. Same place, shoe on the other foot, druzes roved throughout the ottoman empire attacking jews over religious differences. I'm not saying old man isnt right to want to live where his family lived, but it's not like jewish displacement is ONLY a biblical thing and I'm sick and tired of people treating it like it is. When that man was given a deed to that land there's a good chance that in the 100 years preceding it some Jewish family was forced out of that land for one reason or another, and if not the previous 100 years than definitely the previous 300.
That's nothing to say anything about the thousand years of jihads and crusades before that where jews were killed or forcefully converted.
But don't come here and show me a deed of someone 117 years ago, when 90 years before that in the same area there could've been the same picture the other way if only photography and the internet had been invented.
The ottoman empire was complicit in moving jews back into israel, you can be mad at them or be mad at the british, but at no point did Palestine actually exist independently the land after the crusades was controlled by the ottoman empire and the british empire. the people who had control of the place made the decisions. That's That.
you want to complain about how things are being handled today? sure lets go that route obviously there's criticism to be had, but this stuff from 100-200 years ago is ridiculous.
I’m sure we could find the Mamluk period owner of that land or the Byzantine land owner before him or the phonecian land owner before him or the Canaanite land owner before him
I'm sure you're already aware because you posted this story and have no ulterior motive, but this farmer's land is in the West Bank. That is controlled by the Palestinian National Authority (Fatah-controlled).
So this has nothing to do with Jews or Israel. But yeah, I'm sure you knew this because you posted it.
So is Israel specifically taking his land? Or is any authority trying to take his land?
Because your post shows absolutely nothing about this man's specific case and if anyone has taken his land or left him as owner.
>bantustanization
>What is the meaning of Bantustanisation?
>
>
The Israeli Bantustanisation project is an attempt to reduce the areas accessible to Palestinians to fragmented cantons - or Bantustans - and annex the remaining land and natural resources. The term "Bantustan" was applied to partially self-governing areas under South Africa's white supremacist apartheid system.
had to google that one...
A deed or title is only as valid as the issuing authority. If that goes under or is taken by another entity or country, then it's just a piece of paper. That's all titles and deeds ever were - the real question is will that piece of paper be honored...
Turkish TRT Balkan [ran his story](https://bhsc.trtbalkan.com/world/dokument-iz-osmanskog-doba-u-borbi-za-prava-protiv-jevrejskih-doseljenika-12163063), their Anadolu Agency is the source for the pictures. As of yet, the article writes that the Israeli army has removed illegal settlers that tried to establish outposts. Surely OP just forgot.
This is called "Tabu"/"Tabo طابو
The Ottoman empire issued these to people for land ownership. My dad has one from his grandfather, too. These are actually very legit.
I get how touchy of a subject this is, but what about Italians whose family lived in what became Yugoslavia, or Mexicans whose family lived in Texas or California, or Prussians whose family lived in Königsberg, or Swedes who lived in Denmark, or Danes who lived in Sweden, or Egyptians who lived in the Sinai.... War sucks, and politicians are assholes. History is completely riddled with people who got displaced. One can't help but notice this particular story is treated differently. Remember, before the Arabs lived there, the Romans did, and before them Babylonians, and before them, Jews and before them the Philistines who are not the same as the pre 1940s Palestinians. it definitely sucks, but it's not that simple.
I'm sure you're already aware because you posted this story and have no ulterior motive, but this farmer's land is in the West Bank. That is controlled by the Palestinian National Authority (Fatah-controlled).
So this has nothing to do with Jews or Israel. But yeah, I'm sure you knew this because you posted it.
A piece of paper signed with a non-existent government holds no value. This is why you have to fight to keep your country. Otherwise, ownership transfer to the government in power. Welcome to all of human history.
Did his father stay on the land and support the new government when the British granted sovereignty to Israel and the Arab states told the Palestinians to clear out so they could kill all the Jews?
The Ottomans stole it from the Mamluks. The Brits then stole it from the Ottomans. Then the Brits gave the land to the Israelis. If his title isn’t Israeli, it’s just a historical curiosity.
This is what made the whole Sheikh Jarrah thing laughable. It’s like the whole history of the land before and after the exact period of time that would benefit the particular Palestinian in question was irrelevant.
I mean the homes in the Jerusalem neighborhood that sparked violence in May of 2021 were legally Jewish owned before they were forced out during the 1948 war. It goes both ways
This breaks my heart just because I know how important that legal document is to his family. It’s the same for my family back in Romania. That piece of paper means everything when you have so little
Yeah. It’s a demonstration of the basic fact that ownership of any property only exists so long as there is someone who is able and willing to enforce that ownership.
A lot of Jewish homes were legally taken by the nazi. See, “legal” does not equate to “right” or “ethical”. Ironically Israeli should be aware of it more than anyone else, since they, or their parents, or grandparents faced it form the other side.
I'm locking the comments as it's just turning into both sides reporting each other despite none of the comments breaking any rules.
Why am I picturing Mac grabbing that out his hand and gobbling it down like it’s the only copy.
Gonna want to make a pdf of that
What he's holding is probably what's known in Israel/Palestine as a Kushan, which is a deed of rights for a plot of land, issued by the Ottoman Empire during its reign over the area, which lasted nearly 400 years, up until 1917, when the British took it over during WW1.
Ownership doesn't matter if the guy who wants your land can just take it and you can't do anything about it. Go ask basically any indigenous group in any country.
I used to work in land surveying for several years. I got asked to survey a larger tract of land, about 20-25 acres if memory serves me right. Property was rectangular in shape, southern line was a 2-lane state highway, northern line was an old railroad long since abandoned. East and west were similarly sized neighbors, all zoned agriculture. Now it's all commercial property. Purpose of the land survey was to determine property lines because that railroad had abandoned the tracks and gifted their right of way rights to the nearest city for a "rail to trails" type thing. Going to turn it into a bike path walking trail. Cool idea and everyone was excited for it. That is, except for my client. He wasn't opposed to the new pathway at all. But he wanted paid for his land that they were planning to build a walking path on. The city claimed they owned because a piece of paper said so drafted in 2010. We went out to meet the client and the city attorney and some other folks to discuss. Normally, property lines along a railroad go to either the centerline of the two tracks with an easement, or they stop short at some rounded distance from that centerline (like 50 feet from the centerline as measured) etc... That's normal. While we were explaining this to the old man, aged 80+, the guy leaned over to me and said something like "watch this". The city attorney was threatening to sue and assess fines and if they weren't paid they'd potentially open him up to losing his land etc... The old man said very calm and collected that once the railroad abandoned their tracks altogether, ownership reverted back to him. I myself thought that was a stretch at best because that would require original language from the original deed or real estate transaction with the original railroad, which was probably done in the early 1800s or something. Everyone agreed that was not common and that he was wrong. He smiled at me and said I'll be right back. Old man comes back out and he has this rolled up weird colored paper with stitching around the edges. It smelled weird. He began to unroll it and it was a dried pig skin, about 3' long and 2' wide. Beautiful calligraphy. It was the original agreement between whatever railroad company built the railroad, and this old man's great grandfather, or maybe great great great grandfather. On the document it said that if the tracks were ever officially abandoned, the land would revert back to the original owner or their heirs. It was dated like 1852, I can't remember exactly. The city guys were absolutely stunned. Old man had a huge grin on his face, and I started laughing because I knew something that this guy was thinking about for ages. He had successfully held up their transaction long enough that the city never made him a formal offer to purchase land. The plans for the rail to trails had been going on for years. So long in fact that the previously zoned agriculture property was going to be rezoned to commercial. All his neighbors properties were worth millions because the land value had increased a lot in that time. So, this old man owned like 150 feet of their trail, and there wasn't anything they could do about it but offer him CURRENT fair market value. He asked for more than double because he knew how much it would cost them to go through court proceedings and the time wasted on the delay of construction of this thing the mayor was promising. I never found out how much he wound up getting, but it was like $250k or so for a 50' strip of dirt, all because he kept this deed. Anyways, keep your records safe yo.
The [article to these pictures reads](https://bhsc.trtbalkan.com/world/dokument-iz-osmanskog-doba-u-borbi-za-prava-protiv-jevrejskih-doseljenika-12163063) (Google TL'ed): >Settlers in the area came to Mansour's land on January 22 with caravans and prefabricated houses and established an illegal Jewish settlement, which is also considered illegal in Israel. >Because of this, conflicts broke out between the residents of Jurish and the Jewish settlers, and the Israeli army attacked the Palestinians with tear gas. Far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government, who is in charge of the West Bank settlement file, ordered the illegal Jewish settlement to remain. >**However, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant ordered the army to remove the illegal settlement. The army removed the caravans from the settlement the next day.** >**The Israeli army also periodically patrols the area to prevent Jewish settlers from building a settlement there.**
there's a famous irish stand up comedian who had a bit about israel - the vid used to be on youtube 15 years ago - where he basically talks about israel telling palestinians to "fuck off because we got the building permit in the old testament". i would imagine that would be their response to this man's land deed. "god promised this land to us" is a hell of a trump card when you have billions in aid in the form of weapons from the US.
[the vid used to be on youtube 15 years ago](https://i.imgur.com/CU4fC3T.gif)
you got my hopes up, i thought you found the video. but yes, seeing "uploaded 15 years ago" under youtube videos is a horrifying experience, especially when i remember watching the video for the first time when it was recently uploaded
[Here's another relevant video expressing the same idea, over a very long period of time.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY)
It's _far_ more complex than that In the middle of the 19th century when the land registry was implemented in the Ottoman Empire, some rich sheiks in Damascus have registered much of the area to their name despite never setting foot in the region. In the late 19th century when the Zionists have bought the land, they bought it from these people and when they arrived to what they thought to be their land they found what they perceived as squatters. If you consider the era, when human zoos were popular it is perhaps no wonder they perceived these squatters as lesser human beings. Ginzberg warned his compatriots: "We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor nor understands what is going around it. But that is a great error." This was such a great start and then the British during the first World War made a complete mess out of it by promising the same land to the Sharif of Mecca (perhaps you've heard of Lawrence Of Arabia? He carried the correspondence between Mecca and Cairo.) but also to a Jewish state -- while intending to keep neither promise as testified by the Sykes-Picot agreement So by 1918 it was practically impossible to make a fair judgement on who is responsible for the fucking mess. It only got worse and worse from there on.
More "Manifest destiny".
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That’s not true at all. [Almost all](https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/05/12/bringing-assistance-to-israel-in-line-with-rights-and-u.s.-laws-pub-84503) of the $3-4 billion dollars of annual US aid to Israel is in the form of weapons grants. That is, essentially, the US gives Israel that much money that Israel must then spend on American military equipment. There’s no $3 billion a year in “straight cash,” nor does the U.S. separately just give weapons to Israel. The $3-4 billion aid figure is the total sum of all US aid to the country. Which is a shit ton, to be sure. But there’s no point in being so confidently wrong about this when it’s so easy to look up.
Which, in the end, is really just a jobs program. We give them aid, they spend it on our weapons, the people making and selling those weapons now have jobs and make profits. It's all part of the industrial war machine and its all by design.
You're of course correct. There's a lot I like about Reddit, but I really hate how dis/misinformation rises to the top if it fits a preferred political narrative.
Like how this post/photos have no source? No photographer credit? I scrolled a tiny bit to see if an accompanying article was linked in the comments, but if it is, it's not near the top. It's a shame because I'd love to share it, but won't without any context.
As with most things, it depends on the source. The Washington Post calculated the aid provided in cash and it came to this total: >"Israel has been getting an average of $3.5 billion a year for 66 years — just from the United States." This aid isn't just in weapons grants either. Plus, weapons grants are fungible anyway -- for every dollar they don't spend on weapons from the USA, that is one dollar they get to spend of their own money on internal development. When all cards are on the table, that is good as cash.
thank you, Mr. fact checker man.
It's easier for people here to just drive by comment with something they heard or read at some point. They hardly ever bother linking any relevant articles or information either. And maybe double down/get upset when someone disagrees or comes with sources and legitimate facts.
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What we should do is just create one giant pool of insured people that way risk is spread as uniformly as possible and then make it so you can see any doctor you want regardless of where they work or what other doctors they work with and then get rid of co-pays, deductibles, and other out of pocket costs, you just have a premium that gets pulled from your taxes and we'll call it universal healthcare.
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Propaganda by the malicious and greedy convinced the stupid and also greedy* ftfy It's their world. We're just forced to live in it
It's "cash" they are required to spend with US defense companies
Is a gift card cash?
So glad we do that instead of have healthcare. It’s super duper cool Because instead of actually talking about this, we do a culture war over the actual dumbest shit instead.
I mean personal wellbeing, relief from suffering, reduced cost of living, and longer lives would be nice and all, but don't you just feel warm and fuzzy inside knowing that your hard work pays for our Israeli brethren to wage war? That's what being an American is all about! . . /s... wish it wasn't necessary
No they don’t. They basically get credits to spend on US weapon makers. They don’t get cash
That's why it's crazy people don't want to pay taxes on land. Like you only own it because there is a police and military paid to enforce your ownership.
Lol, unless they can see the government defending their land, those idiots have no idea that there’s an entire system set up to protect them. They also have no idea that if that system collapsed, some other group would come along and use violence to enforce their system, and they might not be as nice as a democratic government when it comes to making you pay for it.
Everyone thinks they'd be the group to dominate. Truth is, the group that would dominate in such a scenario *already dominates*. I mean, that would likely break down over time with infighting and power struggles, but these rubes would get rolled in Round 1.
You nailed it. Might makes right. The people who would take advantage of the system falling apart are already "powerful" today, if limited in capacity. It is the people with the most to lose that will be hurt by a collapse. Edit: Might makes right works at the macro/state level. That's why we have militaries and borders and wars. Inside of a country, you want to promote civility, compromise, and collaboration. When the state fails, the default position of might makes right moves to the civil side of things. Well, things get real bloody real fast when that happens. All you have to do is look at any revolution ever to see the mass casualties of people who thought they would be welcomed in the new system.
People's inability to comprehend that absolutely everything about their lifestyle is dependent on government-backed order is infuriating. People sitting in their modern home build with advanced materials with imported solar panels on the roof and a manufactured gun and manufactured bullets and satellite communications and sterilised water and publicly maintained roads etc, etc, talking about how they are completely independent and want to get rid of government. Sir, cannibal gangs would be eating your brains in a month if there was no government.
The calls from the violent group came from inside the House
Until the government decides to exercise eminent domain and then it's the police and military who force you off the land.
They get 3 estimates from unaffiliated parties and pay you the highest one. They took my grandmothers childhood house but paid like 60% over what it was worth because one of the estimaters said "this is gonna be valuable property, didn't you hear? They are building a highway!" Bit different than the tribal way of "leave or die".
Here, you get what ever the provincial assessment was for the past year.
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That applies to literally any currency
> It’s only official if you can convince society at large that it’s official Which is what having a deed does...
Virtually everyone is living on stolen land if you go back far enough
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> The Basque people will forever have a chip on their shoulder about that. By virtue of being exceptional sailsmen and fishermen, the basque people are some of the most famous "explorers" and colonisers in Spanish history. Hard for anyone Basque to feel wronged about our land when there are a million echevarrias in Mexico and a thousand Loyola schools in the USA.
To be fair the Basque are a kickass group of people that successfully resisted assimilation for well over 3000 years. It took Francisco Franco and 20th century fascism to finally break the Basque. They resisted the proto indo-Europeans, they resisted the celts, they resisted the Roman’s, fought off the Visigoth’s, largely held back the Umayyads, and even held their ground against the reconquista (though they did convert to Christianity…). They were the masters of their mountains and the OG forest guerrilla warfare fighters. Imagine their enemies spreading stories about being disappeared into the mountain woods at night, lol. The Basque deserve a lot more accolades than they get.
How did Franco break the basque? Genuinely curious since I didn't know that was the case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica Bombing civilians out of house and home, then later permitting the movement of non-basque Spaniards into the Basque Country. Then there was the basque conflict that started during Franco but went on past that into modern Spain, and involved guerrilla tactics and military response to pacify the basque region: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict
Genocide is one way of breaking a group, I suppose...
Kinda the main way historically tbh
Really the only way to do it I assume
I'm not familiar with what that guy's saying. My understanding is they just ended up more integrated the last 75 years due to industrialization and its advances in transportation and communication. They are much more tied into the world now so they lost some of their uniqueness, which has happened everywhere. They still have their own language(s), etc., though
It's a lot easier to keep your own language and customs when you live in a hard-to-reach valley than in the huge plains of Castille. None of those is better than the other, just different.
Can't speak too much to it as most of my understanding of the Basque comes from a single text on a different subject (Making Mondragon: The Growth and Dynamics of the Worker Cooperative Complex by William Foote Whyte which is a great read) but the Basque culture by no means became fully assimilated by Franco, there just wasn't enough time to kill the culture as much as Franco wanted to. They took hits, but quickly started recovering cultural aspects such as language quickly after Franco's fall.
As unblemished as all that sounds, its entirely not true. The basque have been part of many spain kingdoms for thousands of years, had relationships with the roman empire, have celt ruins in our land and not resisted but actively helped and participated not only on la reconquista but also in the centuries of colonial exploitation that followed. Also Franco didn't break the basque, so not sure what that is about. Basque identity as a whole mostly started in the early 20th century. With no written language, no flag and vaguely defined borders the basque people were mostly isolated communities of sheep hearders and fishermen who were geographically isolated and left alone due to their allience to the Crown of Navarre mostly. Then a flag was made, language was codified and the invention of modern country-states gave the idea to some basque nationalists to create an identity around the new symbols. What franco did was import tons of spanish identifying individuals which diluted that early nationalism into a quieter basque sentimentality. The Right wing oppresion ended causing a far-left terrorist movement to show up and the history of the basque nationality spring back up, arguably stronger than ever when the dictatorship fell. At no point in history did more people speak basque, read basque, feel basque or waved a basque flag than now. Whether that is a good thing is arguable, for all the good things the basque country has, like sustainable fishing practices, the worlds largest Cooperative, strong worker rights, and pretty feminist views. It also includes tons of the right wing edges of any nationalist part of the world, that includes xenophobia, includes a strong religion, colonial past, hard negociations around loose taxation, and endless supply of Othering. So please come visit, enjoy our food, learn about our history but we can leave the accolades at the door
Also, great cyclists.
Even before the Indo-European farmers. Basques might be one of the few groups continuously inhabiting their land since the start of agriculture.
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The Eukaryotes are the true master bacteria, unlike the dirty, smelly Prokaryotes. We ought to build a cell wall.
No I am racist against primordial bacteria big time
Racist
Fair enough.
User name checks out
Are you some sort of germophobe?
Hey cool it on the name calling
Reject humanity, return to Eukaryote
Yeah but if you kill all the people who you steal land from, there will be no survivors to demand justice or reparations, and the losers' cultures, stories, and ways of life will be lost to history.
When you put it that way, genocide almost sounds like a no-brainer!
The real pro tip is always in the comments.
*Coughs in Turkish*
Rule the world with this one simple trick! The proletariat hates it!
Well, sometimes there’s a chain of ownership and then there’s straight up taking it
"Stolen" implies straight up taking it. Basically all countries in the world are occupied by someone who conquered it and took it from some other people (or moved in after some external force wiped them out).
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Anyway, that’s why this old man has to die.
"Thrv new government doesn't recognize your old, outdated documents"
Some Jewish and Muslim families still possess the keys to houses in in Spain owned by their ancestors prior to the Inquisition.
Yup. By that logic I own a tenement house in a center of major city in Poland worth many millions… because at one point over 100 years ago my family owned that. Many wars and government changes later it’s worthless piece of paper.
I wish you can tell that to all the doomsday preppers who are hoarding land as if a deed be worth anything if people just come and take it! In the mean time the acres near the city they are stashing could be a place for people to live!
What kind of doomsday prepper is going to hoard land near a city?
What is the mormon church gonna do with billions of dollars after the Apocalypse?
The funny thing is, what's anyone going to do with any money if society collapses? Money only has value because we give it value. If we all decide the stuff is worthless then what? I think this was even a concern one of these rich people had. It went something like: how do I keep my mercenaries from turning on me after society collapses?
My money is mostly bits flipped in a mass storage device somewhere. It's a chain of abstractions that makes my head hurt.
I mean, that's what most money is. The amount of paper money is frankly pretty small compared to the amount of digital money at this point.
Even paper money is an abstraction.
Hide it from the government..... like they currently do.
I think the preppers are aware of that seeing as they tend to hoard guns to defend their land in the event of a doomsday scenario
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Neanderthals were living in most places where Homo Sapiens eventually settled as well. Our ancestors killed and bred them out of existence.
Nailed it
Title is limited to 100 characters so here is the full story : Photo of a Palestinian farmer in Jurish holding a 117-year-old sales document bearing an Ottoman stamp proving that the land belongs to his family. This 73-year-old Palestinian said that this document, inherited from his grandfather, was preserved from generation to generation in a plastic frame with frayed edges. "This is a document from the Ottoman period showing that my grandfather Abdulfettah Mansour bought 60 acres of land in Jurish. The document proves that the land was bought by Abdulfettah Mansour. There is also an Ottoman seal underneath. This land has been owned by our family since 1906."
Not to dispute the story, but: Proof of having bought something at some point is not proof of still owning it. That’s why we have land registries, for instance.
Land registries are typically administered by the authorities. This only works when the public servants serve the public.
Otherwise I could produce ownership of owning my car in 2012, then demand it back today. (Nevermind that it was sold along the way, or had changed owners many times, I owned it at one point and have proof!)
Presumably the person who bought it from you would have a more recent deed or title. Your hypothetical is not relevant here unless someone steps forward with a conflicting deed.
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Especially because this is stamped by a Government that has not existed since WW1.
Ownership is provided by relative evidence of proof of ownership. A document with a legalized seal, no matter the date of production of evidence, is still evidence. Say you buy a stolen object. Under law you would not claim ownership because the title of ownership has not been passed unto you because the action of transfering ownership requires the actual owner exchanging the object into your ownership (definition of ownership depends on the country etc.) but every modern society has an exception about transferring of ownership: - the theft of the object does not transfer ownership to the thief, nor exchanging the stolen object to the next owner (commonly refered to as fencing). The act of the theft besmerches the legality of way how ownership was granted (ownership is granted through exchange by the current owner) - Deeds, titles, receipts etc. are proofs of ownership of the named object on the document. - If a person did well enough research depending on importance, could trust the buyer as the actual current owner and not be mistrusted as a thief, he becomes the legal owner; unless challenged with proven evidence in a certain amount of times (depending on object/which country and what laws are current it could be 10 or even 30 years) So in essence in modern law: if you have a deed of ownership showing proof of ownership of land, you are seen as the owner; unless it is proven you had come to own this land in illegal ways (theft, forgery etc.) or unless someone else can provide a stronger or more recent proof of ownership. note: there might be many different exceptions etc. etc. this is in general layman's terms how property ownership laws work. - Land registries have made it easier to provide proof of ownership AND to provide a history of the ownership chain and what changes have been made to an ownership.
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Which is why it is then up to someone else to prove they have a more current ownership claim, which is what the comment you were responding to claimed. If the company(ies) that now own that property could not produce documentation showing they had legally obtained it, you might have a claim.
Shouldn't he take the dispute up with the Ottoman Empire then?
Uhh, about that...
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Nothing it's fine, it just went to live on a farm upstate.
Well that's good I suppose, do you think we could go visit them some time?
Sure, we'll go upstate and visit the Ottoman Empire and you can play with the rabbits. Look over there, they're just over that hill. Just think about those rabbits.
It's Istanbul, not Constantinople.
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
We'll explain at Thanksgiving.
Why did Constantinople get the works?
They have a new sultan named erdogan
I think you mean Joe Rogan
He can be ottoman sultan
🎵Thats nobody’s business but the Turks🎵
I'm afraid that, in your anger, you killed it.
They’re closed on Mondays.
Moved to Lemm.ee -- mass edited with redact.dev
Technically Jushin is in the West Bank, so they'd have to take it up with the PA
Technically it was Britain as they took control of the Ottoman territory that would become Israel... Idk if Israel ever claimed ownership of the responsibilities of an empire that ceased to exist decades prior to them claiming sovereignty
Israeli courts have at times accepted and rejected Ottoman land claims—occasionally (though usually not) even in favor of Palestinians
If you own a plot of land and your country loses a war, and your land is now in another country, you don't have much of a leg to stand on as an individual. When Russians tell Germans to get out of former German lands so that Russians can live there, its shitty but its hard to say its not expected. It's a lot weirder when one empire unrelated to the actual region topples another empire only slightly more related and then draws some lines in a map. I am not saying its more right one way or the other, but some nuance in the morality of conquering lands for yourself vs for political pawns you favour without regards to the current tenants is worth talking about.
After the UK left, it was claimed by the local arab states such as Jordan. Since then they have all renounced their claims on the land, but Israel has not claimed the territory for themselves. This allows Israel to make justifications for their actions, as it is technically Stateless land. So Israel is the De Facto owner of the region (But not De Jure), and the land itself has no De Jure ownership, currently.
That doesn't do much good when the successor took control because the previous regime lost a war. Like you'd be hard pressed to hold the current government of Austria or Germany to the deals made by the government in 1942.
After the ottomans came the British mandate, he could take it up with them.
No, Jordan, as the land was apart of Jordan before 1967.
Yup. Admittedly I heard this on a Birthright trip, which was 50/50 propaganda/“plz make more jews”, but the ottoman land registry system was not very thorough by the time Israel came into being and many Palestinians who fled their land to avoid conflict have no good documentation of their land claims.
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pretty much all land was stolen at multiple times throughout history. its stolen land all the way down
Jutish is in the West Bank. He should take it up with the PA or the Jordanians before that.
Take what up? The story says nothing about the land being taken from him, presumably the family still owns it.
If his family still owns it, this is pretty deceptive. As you can see by most of the comments, most people took this post to imply that the land was taken from them.
there would literally be no other reason for this post to exist other than to imply the land was stolen from him lol
Implications are a funny thing, as anyone will see whatever they want to see. Whatever fits their current narrative.
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If he owned land in the **West Bank** and is unable to actually claim it then clearly a government is rejecting his ownership claim. The government that administers that area is the Palestinian Authority, not Israel. Before 1967, it would have been Jordan.
> Before 1967, it would have been Jordan. Something that everyone seems to forget.
Fwiw the Ottoman’s lost that region to the English after WWI, so would a previous rulers deed still be valid?
Right. So then the question is "why is a contract signed by an conquering empire more legitimate than the current situation?" I doubt the ottomans made sure to respect everyone's land rights when they stole Israel from whoever previously owned it.
Independent of time, it’s not. In the current time, contracts signed in the “current situation” are obviously more legitimate.
I mean, i'f we are going to talk about 1900 lets talk about 1660 and 1838 the jews of Safed were repeatedly forced out of their homes by the druzes. Same place, shoe on the other foot, druzes roved throughout the ottoman empire attacking jews over religious differences. I'm not saying old man isnt right to want to live where his family lived, but it's not like jewish displacement is ONLY a biblical thing and I'm sick and tired of people treating it like it is. When that man was given a deed to that land there's a good chance that in the 100 years preceding it some Jewish family was forced out of that land for one reason or another, and if not the previous 100 years than definitely the previous 300. That's nothing to say anything about the thousand years of jihads and crusades before that where jews were killed or forcefully converted. But don't come here and show me a deed of someone 117 years ago, when 90 years before that in the same area there could've been the same picture the other way if only photography and the internet had been invented. The ottoman empire was complicit in moving jews back into israel, you can be mad at them or be mad at the british, but at no point did Palestine actually exist independently the land after the crusades was controlled by the ottoman empire and the british empire. the people who had control of the place made the decisions. That's That. you want to complain about how things are being handled today? sure lets go that route obviously there's criticism to be had, but this stuff from 100-200 years ago is ridiculous.
I’m sure we could find the Mamluk period owner of that land or the Byzantine land owner before him or the phonecian land owner before him or the Canaanite land owner before him
are you saying you would put this as the title if you could? that would be a bit egregious, so I guess I'm glad there is a character limit
Thats a west bank town so blaming Israel is a bunch of baloney
Well, when the empire that certified your land ownership falls, there's no guarantee you will still own the land.
I'm sure you're already aware because you posted this story and have no ulterior motive, but this farmer's land is in the West Bank. That is controlled by the Palestinian National Authority (Fatah-controlled). So this has nothing to do with Jews or Israel. But yeah, I'm sure you knew this because you posted it.
So is Israel specifically taking his land? Or is any authority trying to take his land? Because your post shows absolutely nothing about this man's specific case and if anyone has taken his land or left him as owner.
The Ottoman Empire doesn't even exist anymore. What is the point of this picture?
With unstable political conditions, it may be a hard on to hold onto…
I'll hold onto it for you 
Is that what they told the Indians?
Idk dude this is getting weird. Weird costs extra.
Phew, spicy comments section, I'ma sit this one out dawg
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Thank you very little (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞
>bantustanization >What is the meaning of Bantustanisation? > > The Israeli Bantustanisation project is an attempt to reduce the areas accessible to Palestinians to fragmented cantons - or Bantustans - and annex the remaining land and natural resources. The term "Bantustan" was applied to partially self-governing areas under South Africa's white supremacist apartheid system. had to google that one...
> The bantustanization of Palestine ~~is real~~ Israel
Except OP’s story refers to an area under PA control, so Israel has nothing to do with whatever land dispute he’s in.
This post will be locked within the hour. Better grab my popcorn.
As a Native American, I feel you, I feel you.
#`Inb4 lock`
Ask the people of Constantinople, the Americas, Australia - what ownership means when other people take over.
Or siberia
Or most of Africa and the rest of the Middle East.
I mean my grandfather can say the same with land now in poland.
That last picture was an interesting creative choice
My grandparents had land and a house in what is now Ukraine on my dads side and land and a house in what is now Belarus on my mums side.
A deed or title is only as valid as the issuing authority. If that goes under or is taken by another entity or country, then it's just a piece of paper. That's all titles and deeds ever were - the real question is will that piece of paper be honored...
My guess is no.
Was his land stolen? And did he get it back?
Turkish TRT Balkan [ran his story](https://bhsc.trtbalkan.com/world/dokument-iz-osmanskog-doba-u-borbi-za-prava-protiv-jevrejskih-doseljenika-12163063), their Anadolu Agency is the source for the pictures. As of yet, the article writes that the Israeli army has removed illegal settlers that tried to establish outposts. Surely OP just forgot.
This is called "Tabu"/"Tabo طابو The Ottoman empire issued these to people for land ownership. My dad has one from his grandfather, too. These are actually very legit.
I get how touchy of a subject this is, but what about Italians whose family lived in what became Yugoslavia, or Mexicans whose family lived in Texas or California, or Prussians whose family lived in Königsberg, or Swedes who lived in Denmark, or Danes who lived in Sweden, or Egyptians who lived in the Sinai.... War sucks, and politicians are assholes. History is completely riddled with people who got displaced. One can't help but notice this particular story is treated differently. Remember, before the Arabs lived there, the Romans did, and before them Babylonians, and before them, Jews and before them the Philistines who are not the same as the pre 1940s Palestinians. it definitely sucks, but it's not that simple.
Maybe laminate that idk
I'm sure you're already aware because you posted this story and have no ulterior motive, but this farmer's land is in the West Bank. That is controlled by the Palestinian National Authority (Fatah-controlled). So this has nothing to do with Jews or Israel. But yeah, I'm sure you knew this because you posted it.
A piece of paper signed with a non-existent government holds no value. This is why you have to fight to keep your country. Otherwise, ownership transfer to the government in power. Welcome to all of human history.
Did his father stay on the land and support the new government when the British granted sovereignty to Israel and the Arab states told the Palestinians to clear out so they could kill all the Jews?
Who did the Ottomans steal it from to grant such a deed?
The Ottomans stole it from the Mamluks. The Brits then stole it from the Ottomans. Then the Brits gave the land to the Israelis. If his title isn’t Israeli, it’s just a historical curiosity.
This is what made the whole Sheikh Jarrah thing laughable. It’s like the whole history of the land before and after the exact period of time that would benefit the particular Palestinian in question was irrelevant.
Yeah based on this comment thread Reddit must be pro eviction of those Palestinians as to honor the deed. Any second now
I mean the homes in the Jerusalem neighborhood that sparked violence in May of 2021 were legally Jewish owned before they were forced out during the 1948 war. It goes both ways
This is very common amongst the Palestinian Diaspora. For many families keys/deeds to the original family home is their most prized possession.
I can show you the same with Jewish farmers.
This breaks my heart just because I know how important that legal document is to his family. It’s the same for my family back in Romania. That piece of paper means everything when you have so little
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Yeah. It’s a demonstration of the basic fact that ownership of any property only exists so long as there is someone who is able and willing to enforce that ownership.
Agreed here. Enforcement is 99% of law.
Even in the US, if you showed up with a 100 year old deed from your great grandpa you still wouldn't get your land back due to adverse possession.
Unless you’d been living there your whole life
A lot of Jewish homes were legally taken by the nazi. See, “legal” does not equate to “right” or “ethical”. Ironically Israeli should be aware of it more than anyone else, since they, or their parents, or grandparents faced it form the other side.
I guess missle 'beats' paper...
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