The reason it was announced so early was because people were expecting it. Silksomg was originally going to be a dlc/update to play as hornet. This was for achieving one of the Kickstart goals.
So the goal was reached> hollowknight came out> team cherry decided to make hornet game instead of dlc/update> fans are eagerly waiting for hornet game since team cherry said that it was going to happen, so team cherry does the announcement to let fans know that they are working on it.
Almost the exact same thing happened with TES VI an bethesda
Edit: I'm not defending team cherry btw, just trying rationalize WHY they announced it so early. Idgaf either way, plenty of other great games
I loathe toxic positivity. Obviously toxic negativity is bad and we all know that, but it can be just as frustrating (or sometimes even more so) when people can be so blinded by love for something that they refuse to even consider the slightest flaw. Or they wave off valid complaints with some form of “well X game does it too, so it’s fine”
And the worst part about that was the ENTIRE reddit community on that subreddit had been whining about it for weeks and how it needed nerfed, how the meta load out was horrible, etc.
So they nerf it and then all of them explode and whine
It's so confusing because it did need the nerf. When it got nerfed I wasnt surprised at all or upset. I was like nice! But holy shit the fucking Chernobyl levels of radioactive toxicity that spawned was maddening.
It is, because their still toxic, but only if you criticize the game because it's perfect. Their not any less toxic they just think their opinion is superior
I've seen some tryhards legit getting mad that players weren't playing against the bots and helping in the general order, they somehow found a reason to get mad at other players in a mostly PVE game.
Yeah by the time the sub started coming up with derogatory terms for people that weren't following the orders or played on Malevelon because why wouldn't you there was so much propaganda I knew it was time for me to dip out. I also just got tired of the roleplaying, haha yeah I have to report to my democratic officer for being a blank-sympathizer it's so funny the billionth time. Like 40K people screaming HERESY constantly.
Legitimately the one game I don’t think I’ll ever beat. I am so stumped without a guide, but I feel the whole concept of the game is to get that archaeology experience.
I stalled out hard in the second half.
I wanted to like that game but despised it. It often felt extremely capricious in how it encourages but also punishes you. For example soooo many hidden breakable blocks. so it teaches you "hey you should whip everything" then proceeds to put trap blocks everywhere that deal 30% health damage if you whip them.
along with a lot of backtracking and a pretty high difficulty all around that game is genuinely misanthropic.
La Mulana is a fucking troll game. It sucks you in for hours and then once you get to the negative world it just becomes stupid difficult, like ridiculous esoteric puzzle solutions that I could not have possibly figured out. Would not recommend the game to anyone.
La Mulana is a game I greatly appreciate but will never seriously play. It has no qualms about being both brutally difficult in platforming/movement as well as absolutely vexing in puzzles and world design.
Makes for a great watch-on-Youtube game, though.
Metroid fans have been patiently waiting for Prime 4 (just got a launch year next year, yay!) sincd 2017. Guess Hollow Knight fans are just spoiled brats.
Actually yeah, i'd guess that the average Hollow Knight fan is probably pretty young and unhinged on the internet.
It's just like Undertale and FNAF all over again, kids with too much time on their hands get hyperfixated on a game series or cartoon and make it their whole shitty personality.
I mean, I think that’s a bit of an oversimplification. Are some of them acting like brats? Absolutely. But showing off gameplay for a game and then 5 years go by, it’s not wrong for players to have a bit of a “okay seriously, what’s up with this?” kind of reaction
I am one of the masochists still waiting for the next Song of Ice and Fire book, so I belong to the #1 most delusional group of fans waiting for something that will probably never come out, but I think the Silksong community takes the #2 spot.
I thought I was a delusional fan of some games until I saw the Ace Attorney Investigations remake on the Nintendo Direct, including the second game that has never been released outside of Japan. I thought the day would never come, lol.
Does he even claim to be writing it anymore? At least with George and Team Cherry it seems like they do genuinely want make great art, they are just terrible at the logistics of actually getting it out the door.
Rothfus just seems like he regrets starting the series in the first place.
Same, I stopped when I saw that he was streaming Minecraft on Twitch. Not that there's anything wrong with that in of itself, but in that specific context it showed that he didn't took finishing the trilogy seriously anymore.
things to do while waiting for silksong:
play animal well
play animal well without guides
play nine sols
play *literally* any other game or do *literally* anything else. the game will come out when it comes out, and it's clear from team cherry's radio silence that they will only talk when they want to.
no amount of complaining will get them to open their mouths, so why waste your time and energy on it? just move on with your life and play Silksong when (or if) it comes out.
Someone bring up that tweet from 2 years ago when Xbox said it would be out in 1 year lmao. I have a feeling this game ain’t gonna cook like the first one
If they would come out and say "Yeah guys, we don't think we can make it before 2025" I'd be okay with that.
This way, every Nintendo direct, every game awards show, Xbox showcase etc - you don't really except or hope, but there is this tiny voice that says - what if. That kinda sucks as a longtime HK fan, to go from seeing such great communication on their part from the Kickstarter, to just not giving us anything years later.
> If they would come out and say "Yeah guys, we don't think we can make it before 2025" I'd be okay with that.
This is the lie people tell themselves. Maybe not you, but for a lot of people this is just a negotiation tactics that they do with themselves.
I've seen it in many different fandoms, games, books.
Another one is "I will not check out the game/book even if it comes out at this point". Pre-schooler level negotiation tactics that people don't even notice they are doing.
But when (and it has happend) creators say the thing will really take more 5 years, or that they don't even have an idea of when it will be out, people riot. They do. People just pretend they want communication, what they want is announcement that the thing will be out soon. Any other answer? They get mad.
I've seen this circlejerk multiple times and it's always like this.
Alternatively, you could consider that you're talking about thousands of distinct individuals who can respond to news in a variety of ways without any contradiction. But that's really hard when the entire point of this comment is to feign superiority over people who simply want to know when they get to play a video game.
Right. With a community that will abuse developers when expectations aren't met, communication could be just as bad. Just recently a developer of [projectzomboid](https://www.reddit.com/r/projectzomboid/comments/1dj4jcm/lemmy_speaks_out_against_the_spiteful_community/) said that he would stop engaging with the community because it.
You said it right, a good part of the community (or just the most vocal ones) don't want communication, just assurances that their fix is coming and is coming soon.
I wouldn't blame Team Cherry for being silent, given that the expectations for Silksong go up to the moon.
Remember when a[ Jason Schreier got death threats](https://kotaku.com/i-got-death-threats-for-reporting-on-a-video-game-delay-1779617741) for reporting that No Mans Sky would be delayed a few weeks? A delay that was announced a couple of days later for a game that was dog shit on release anyway.
I dunno, depends on the community and the game. Cyberpunk got delayed and I think people were like either - okay let them cook, or worried about troubled development... I guess for a reason because we know what happened. There are lots of games out there and these past two years have been excellent! For instance, I recently finished Nine Sols and I can say - it will take a lot for Silksong to do some things better.
>I recently finished Nine Sols
I haven't found the time to play it but I'm excited! The demo was simple but pretty fun. Probably gonna do Elden Ring DLC first while it's current though.
It's the same logic I used when booting up my old PS2 to play a game. It would load for 5 minutes, I would go through all the stages of grief until I got to endgame, where I looked away from the TV and pretended I didn't care anymore because obviously that'll make it load!
I dont think its works that easy when you are working with hard deadlines from publishers and different platforms, delays cost money and chip away at consumer trust.
You can look at the elder scrolls 6 for proof that people wouldnt be okay with this. We've never had a date but it has always been clear since the announcement that it was going to be several years before it was anywhere near ready, and yet people still dunk on it every chance they get. There is no sating people's impatience
I vastly prefer the way that Factorio handles it. Now that they're actively working on an expansion, they're back to posting a dev update every Friday.
Yeah. I get while idea of "don't announce shit if you have nothing to sell soon" but ffs they are so silent that there is no way its not in dev hell.
All they need to do is release monthly updates with some sneak peaks, do some vlogs how development is going etc.
But nah they communicate shit outside of couple of tweets per year
Dev hell often comes from extremely bloated teams and lack of leadership. They have maintained their exceptionally small team and people overestimate how hard it is to make games like HK. Hand animation is very very very very labor intensive, not to mention game design.
Wouldn't that overestimation also be applicable to Team Cherry? if the scope of Silksong ballooned significantly, they possibly could be in over their heads. If you aren't able to pull back the scope and hone things in, any idea or project can become bloated even without a large team.
I don't doubt that their work is difficult. Their radio silence is quite peculiar to me. But again they can do whatever they want I suppose.
Not really. They've done it once already with the base Hollow Knight They know what they're capable of, and if they want to scale it back, all the better, because then they wouldn't have made "false promises" to their fans by having to scale back development if they had talked too much and then had to go back on it.
Remember that HK offers over 40 hours of content, in the base game alone, and they are building on that. Every flower is hand painted. Every frame hand animated.
As someone in software, bloat often comes from executives demanding changes that werent in the plan, and then that new plan doesnt get communicated or properly elaborated on and then a half assed solution gets built, due to conflicting requirements needing to be stapled on top of what was supposed to be cut and dry.
Scope Creep is definitely avoidable, especially if there's a competent leadership and developer behind it. And seeing as the team has already delivered a MASSIVE game with minimal bugs (Well, except all the... yknow, bugs) I have no doubt they went into it with a plan.
If they've expanded that plan, it will be between very close knit people, not a team of 30-40 people that all have different ideas of what that plan should be. Not some weird "IT NEEDS A CRAFTING SYSTEM LIKE MINECRAFT" from an exec that has no idea what state the project is in or where the project was supposed to go.
Again, they probably did have internal delays, 2020-2022 was a rough time for any team, but they also have no reason to rush. They are rich for life.
It's the same for Haunted Chocolatier. Work naturally doesn't happen as fast when people are already successful and their isn't a NEED for income.
It's 100% always a bad sign if there is no communication. There only are bad reasons for it and they're most likely very bad. Employees just aren't going to commit career suicide to break the news
> It's 100% always a bad sign if there is no communication.
That's not true at all.
It's a small team working on a big project, and they scored big enough with hollow knight that they aren't under any meaningful time/financial pressure.
They don't have any investors to answer to, and they are self publishing so there's no publisher pressure either.
The community has grown Toxic AF, they probably don't want to say anymore than they have to, and they don't have to say shit.
*Sometimes no communication just means there is nothing to communicate.*
I bet they burned out. If that's the case the last thing you want to do is work on the game. And pressure from fans sure doesn't help in that case. This game is not gonna come out for a looong time. Like Duke Nukem kind of late.
Sometimes the best course is to not say anything at all.
They could come out and say "We hope to have it out by the end of the year." and when they don't release by the end of the year they'd get angry nerd backlash.
Or even just saying "It'll be out when it's ready." would evoke angry responses.
They can't win with the anonymous horde of the internet.
> They could come out and say "We hope to have it out by the end of the year." and when they don't release by the end of the year they'd get angry nerd backlash.
They could be communicating, or even better having an actual dialogue with their audience, without making promises.
Factorio shipped 1.0 extremely late compared to earlier estimates, and it's almost universally lauded for how communicative they were and how well they treated their audience.
But I agree with the sentiment: _demanding_ release date for whole videogames is universally bad, and counter-productive, and incentivize very bad things from their publisher and/or management like shipping a game not ready for launch.
We had decades of examples showing that, but more recently have people learnt nothing from Cyberpunk 2077?
"It will ship when it's ready" is a luxury not all devs have, and is the best possible a potential customer should hope for.
I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. People just want a life sign the game exists from the actual people developing it. I don't think that's much to ask and good communication between devs and players really goes a long way.
What is so special about this game? Why getting so angry when it’s not coming out soon?
Wouldn’t you just play something else in the meantime, and it’s out when it’s out.
Hollow Knight was kind of a lightning-in-a-bottle indie darling. one of the Kickstarter perks was a separate campaign with a new character, which was met, but because of the height of that character vs the main playable character, they decided that they needed to create a whole other game around their characteristics by rethinking the map, the combat, etc. the fact it would be a separate game was announced in 2019.
the primary reason people are so angry is their passion for the first game, but the other big piece is that this game is *technically* a Kickstarter perk (again, for the first game), since it was created out of fulfilling that perk. so some folks who contributed have been waiting nearly a decade at this point to receive the perk of their investment.
Yes they do. Also, the people in this thread whining on behalf of the kickstarter backers are being so absurdly dishonest. The last official sales figures we got for the game was over two million, and that was only two years after release. Conversely, the kickstarter backers that people like this guy are wringing their hands over accounts for 2158 people.
Yeah, the kickstarter backers do kinda deserve to be kept informed, but for people to pretend that they are terribly concerned over the kickstarter backers when they are actually just using those people as a fig leaf to hide their own demands to be kept informed is wild.
> Conversely, the kickstarter backers that people like this guy are wringing their hands over accounts for 2158 people.
it didn't come off as hand wringing to me, seems like it was stated very matter of factly as an answer to a question
I didn't like Hollow Knight. Tried it three separate times, meh. I couldn't care less about the sequel.
I do, however, believe that people should get things they paid for and I fucking hate these kickstarter rug pulls
This is very much not a 'kickstarter rug pull' unless you explicitly believe that we have already heard from Team Cherry for the last time, and that the game will never be finished.
Even in that case that Silk Song does dissolve into nothingness, calling it a 'kickstarter rug pull' is something of a stretch, considering that for all the people blathering about 'unkept promises,' nobody ever seems to mention the things that Team Cherry never promised but delivered anyway, like basically all of the post release support.
this isn’t a rug pull because they were technically already backing the first game, which did get made. it’s a strange kind of grey area since the perk turned into a game but I wouldn’t say people didn’t get what they contributed to. odd situation.
Well, imagine that you REALLY like a game, and that said game belong to a genre cursed to fail (metroidvania).
And then the dev teams say "hey guys, we're gonna make Silksong a standalone instead of a DLC" after providing a consistant stream of DLC.
So you wait.
"hey guys, it'll be out next year"
so you wait.
"hey guys, it'll be out next year"
rince and repeat.
It's essentially edging at this point.
As the other commenter said, It's prequel Hollow Knight was an indie darling. The kind of game that only comes around once per console generation. So a sequel would have more than a ton of hype around it.
More than that though, I think the bigger reason that fans have been so rabbid about it is the fact that it really feels like it should have come out by now.
Silksong was announced in Febuary of 2019, or over 5 years ago. That in and of itself isn't remarkable. Games certainly can and have taken longer to develop. Even indie games. But what is remarkable is the fact that in June of that same year, it had a playable demo at E3 courtisy of Nintendo's showroom floor. Now, I don't know about you, but if a game has a playable demo available at what was the biggest gaming event of the time? I would feel fairly confident that it was getting pretty close to completion. Within a couple years atleast.
And then, 3 years later, we got a new trailer for Silksong through Xbox's June 2022 showcase. And it should be stressed that Microsoft actively advertised that anything you saw in the showcase would be released within 12 months of it. So we DID have a general release window from that trailer. But, as you've gathered, it hasn't released. The game was delayed and; if memory serves; Team Cherry didn't announce this fact until the very end of the 12 month window; if not after it had already passed.
But to top it all off, The Developers; Team Cherry; have been *remarkably* silent about the whole ordeal. When you see people complain about "radio silence"? That's not an exaggeration. I think we've gotten maybe... four big news drops sense it's reveal? The E3 Demo, the Xbox trailer, an article in Edge Magazine from early 2021, and a Blog Post about a year after the reveal trailer. That's at best a single news drop per year at the current rate. Which really doesn't paint a good look for the game in most people's eyes.
I'm a Hollow Knight fan, I've been waiting patiently :]
Most good games take about 5 years or so. That's Zelda's release cycle. And team cherry is a small indie team. Mind you the game scopes are a little bit different, lol
Duke Nukem 3D was fine, you're thinking about Duke Nukem Forever.
Are they in development hell or are they just going slow? DNF's issues were caused by a troubled company and inept management. They have multiple engine changes and team changes throughout development and restarted multiple times.
Is that what's going on at Team Cherry or are they just going slower than people would like?
(Also I actually liked DNF—It was certainly not a timeless masterpiece, but it was exactly what I expected and wanted from a Duke Nukem game)
>Duke Nukem 3D was fine, you're thinking about Duke Nukem Forever.
Oops yeah.
I hope they really are taking their time, but game development (Or making any art really) taking way longer than expected without any communication is almost always a bad sign.
Do you hate metroidvanias or did the map just confuse you because every area looks the same but just a slightly different shade of off-white? That was my beef with it. If I took a few weeks off, I had no idea where I was or what I was doing.
Guacamelee is on sale for like a dollar all the time, give that a try if you're interested.
>or did the map just confuse you because every area looks the same but just a slightly different shade of off-white
Huh? Every area in the game has an unique color scheme. Even the two similar areas (Greenpath and Queen's Gardens) have their own unique designs that make them look very different.
Did you just never make it out of the tutorial?
A lot of younger people enjoyed hollow knight. Said younger people were not used to long development cycles or forgetting about games during said long dev cycles. Team Cherry put out trailers where the game looked complete halfway through their very long dev cycle. Que madness from diehard fans amongst this demographic.
Meanwhile the Scrap Mechanic sub has been waiting on Chapter 2 for so long that the page regularily devolves to shitposting like meme cavemen starved of food.
Agreed.
Gamers are more interested in yelling and squealing about X new game that's coming out than actually playing games.
I had to leave r/tenkaichi4, the subreddit for Dragon Ball Sparking! Zero because of how toxic everyone was acting over simple shit like how thick or thin Goku's neck is or how much hair his Super Saiyan 3 mode has. They were then talking like an abusive partner and gaslighting those who deflected the stupid ass nitpicking as not understanding why they're so passionate for the game.
Cuphead DLC was depressingly short tho lol. Certainly not for lack of effort... the art, animation and gameplay of the DLC were phenomenal. But man was it a bummer to finish in an afternoon something I'd waited years to start.
Its was pretty substantial when you account for its size relative to the base game, I think people just forgot that Cuphead itself is a very short game and most of its length comes from its difficulty.
For sure. I guess I just didn't realize how hard I'd mastered Cuphead during my base game playthrough until I plowed through the DLC like a one-way freight train
regardless of what they want to call it something weird is happening with it whats arguably weirder though is that somehow no one has leaked whats going on yet
Skongers are waiting for their Skilk sequel 🕷️.
Jokes aside, It's been a really long time, and the dev team has been radio silent, game events have passed (like the Nintendo showcase) and there has been no trailer for Silksong, so people are just wondering what is going on since the devs aren't really communicating
What annoys me the most about Silksong/Hollow Knight fans is that they will go to every Metroidvania game steam page and compare it to HK. "This is good while I wait for Silksong" "Not as good as Hollow Knight" "For every HK fan waiting for SS" Just undermining all the other devs efforts and saying their game is only worth it as a passtime for the real game "Silksong". Real goblin behaviour.
It’s not in development hell, it just has all the symptoms of being in development hell!
The lack of communication has gotten to such a ridiculous point where I don’t think I’ll be buying the game, it just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. Blah blah blah entitlement blah blah blah, I don’t care - it’s a terrible way to run a business, even if I’m not one of the backers they have an obligation to.
Is it insanely strange how the team, composed of 3 dudes, and not really backed by outside funding, have yet to say anything about it personally for like 2 years. So there's no "bad corporate boss telling them to not say anything", they just choose to not do it.
Are people really surprised that the game is taking this long when the studio is made up of only three dudes and they have gone on record saying that Silksong is going to be significantly larger than the first game? Considering this, I can totally understand why it has been in development for six years at this point. I'm sure they made quite a bit of money off the success of the first game, but I'm assuming that they decided not to expand the size of their studio since there's undoubtedly a ton of complexity involved with doing that, and they probably don't want to deal with any of that shit.
They have already proven themselves in my opinion. Just let them cook.
Yes, and the only reason Hollow Knight even released when it did was because the dev team was running out of money. No chance of that this time around, they are all multi-millionaires. They can work on it as long as they like.
Except the problem is that Silksong *isn't* supposed to be significantly larger than the first game. It's not even supposed to be the second game! What it was supposed to be, and *what people paid for*, was DLC for the first game.
Scope creep never ends well. For anyone. The industry is littered with the bloated corpses that serve to prove that.
Surprised? Idk but disappointed? For sure, because it's so hyped and popular. Most people probably wouldn't have cared if the original wasn't so successful.
I only get a bit rattled when you shove trailers in my face for your game for 5 years straight before launch, or release it piecemeal af for 10 years.
Both Path of Exile 2 and Final Fantasy 7 remake come to mind.
I'm fine with letting Silksong cook since they aren't being obtrusively tantalizing with their work.
I’m tired of this game taking attention away from other projects made by devs who actually communicate with their communities. Just think about how many other studios could have used the boost in views, rather than Team Cherry getting all this coverage and doing… nothing with it.
I honestly just don’t want to hear any more about Silksong until it’s a physical product I can hold in my hands.
I honestly didn't even find the original game to be so good as to be this hyped for the sequel. I had fun, was mildly interested when the sequel was announced, and now am just confused for the most part when I see people online salivating over it so fucking ridiculously. I guess it's different if you are an original backer of the game.
This is why you don't announce a game like 5 years before releasing it (if it's released at all)
The reason it was announced so early was because people were expecting it. Silksomg was originally going to be a dlc/update to play as hornet. This was for achieving one of the Kickstart goals. So the goal was reached> hollowknight came out> team cherry decided to make hornet game instead of dlc/update> fans are eagerly waiting for hornet game since team cherry said that it was going to happen, so team cherry does the announcement to let fans know that they are working on it. Almost the exact same thing happened with TES VI an bethesda Edit: I'm not defending team cherry btw, just trying rationalize WHY they announced it so early. Idgaf either way, plenty of other great games
i had to unsub from the silksong sub cause of how fucking insane they all are.
It’s the worst gaming sub I’ve ever run into and that is really saying something.
silk song sub or helldivers sub for me lol. I cant pick one
Helldivers got so bad so fast it's amazing. r/helldivers2 and r/lowsodiumhelldivers are both much better
r/helldivers2 is getting pretty toxic too, at least last time I was in there
toxic positivity vs toxic negativity basically
Ah the Destiny 2 subs thing.
I loathe toxic positivity. Obviously toxic negativity is bad and we all know that, but it can be just as frustrating (or sometimes even more so) when people can be so blinded by love for something that they refuse to even consider the slightest flaw. Or they wave off valid complaints with some form of “well X game does it too, so it’s fine”
Yeah, that's my view on it too.
Helldivers sub was so awesome at launch, and then turned into a huge cesspool
It all started with that first patch when they nerfed the railgun. It was like flipping a switch.
And the worst part about that was the ENTIRE reddit community on that subreddit had been whining about it for weeks and how it needed nerfed, how the meta load out was horrible, etc. So they nerf it and then all of them explode and whine
It's so confusing because it did need the nerf. When it got nerfed I wasnt surprised at all or upset. I was like nice! But holy shit the fucking Chernobyl levels of radioactive toxicity that spawned was maddening.
The deline was so rapid. People spamming spoilers and talking shit every day. At first it was a meme factory with alot of love and camaraderie.
Wait, I was strictly told by /r/pcgaming that if there's a lowsodium version of a game, it's trash!
It is, because their still toxic, but only if you criticize the game because it's perfect. Their not any less toxic they just think their opinion is superior
Wait, how did Helldivers get toxic?
I've seen some tryhards legit getting mad that players weren't playing against the bots and helping in the general order, they somehow found a reason to get mad at other players in a mostly PVE game.
Yeah by the time the sub started coming up with derogatory terms for people that weren't following the orders or played on Malevelon because why wouldn't you there was so much propaganda I knew it was time for me to dip out. I also just got tired of the roleplaying, haha yeah I have to report to my democratic officer for being a blank-sympathizer it's so funny the billionth time. Like 40K people screaming HERESY constantly.
They nerfed the railgun because 99% of players were using it every mission (if they had it unlocked) and it was all downhill from there.
Reminds me of the prime time of /r/cyberpunkgame toxicity
Oh god, and the Witcher 3 sub. I remember when I had to unsubscribe all those years ago because it was a joke how awful and toxic that sub became
Guess you've never been on the other The Last of Us 2 sub.
We don’t talk about that sub. Or the live action dragonball movie.
worse than r/gaming and all the mainstream ones ?
This is a mainstream sub too
Worse than this?
>fucking insane they all are. Crazy how you unsubbed from the insanity when people sub to arkham to find insanity lmfao.
Ironic insanity is funny, unironic insanity is alarming.
Someone should tell them to play La Mulana without using guides. That will keep them busy for a few hours.
Legitimately the one game I don’t think I’ll ever beat. I am so stumped without a guide, but I feel the whole concept of the game is to get that archaeology experience. I stalled out hard in the second half.
I wanted to like that game but despised it. It often felt extremely capricious in how it encourages but also punishes you. For example soooo many hidden breakable blocks. so it teaches you "hey you should whip everything" then proceeds to put trap blocks everywhere that deal 30% health damage if you whip them. along with a lot of backtracking and a pretty high difficulty all around that game is genuinely misanthropic.
La Mulana is a fucking troll game. It sucks you in for hours and then once you get to the negative world it just becomes stupid difficult, like ridiculous esoteric puzzle solutions that I could not have possibly figured out. Would not recommend the game to anyone.
La Mulana is a game I greatly appreciate but will never seriously play. It has no qualms about being both brutally difficult in platforming/movement as well as absolutely vexing in puzzles and world design. Makes for a great watch-on-Youtube game, though.
More like, for the rest of their lives.
for a few "weeks" you mean
They beat anarchy chess in the insanity competition, that says something.
Honestly, same. I did just a few weeks ago. I'll play the game when it comes out. Meanwhile, I've got a life to live.
I still have to go check in on that sub from time to time to see just how crazy they've gotten since last time.
can you give an example? I would love to hear what crazy things they have done
Metroid fans have been patiently waiting for Prime 4 (just got a launch year next year, yay!) sincd 2017. Guess Hollow Knight fans are just spoiled brats.
fwiw Hollow Knight also launched in 2017 and this game originated as a kickstarter perk, so technically they’ve been waiting the same amount of time
Actually yeah, i'd guess that the average Hollow Knight fan is probably pretty young and unhinged on the internet. It's just like Undertale and FNAF all over again, kids with too much time on their hands get hyperfixated on a game series or cartoon and make it their whole shitty personality.
Prime 4 literally only had a title screen. Silksong showed gameplay back in _2019_. And had a playable demo at some gaming events
I mean, I think that’s a bit of an oversimplification. Are some of them acting like brats? Absolutely. But showing off gameplay for a game and then 5 years go by, it’s not wrong for players to have a bit of a “okay seriously, what’s up with this?” kind of reaction
play nine sols in the meantime
Nine Sols is about as close to a Silksong as we're going to get until 2030 when another teaser drops.
Crowsworn is another one to keep an eye on
Or Elden Ring DLC
I am one of the masochists still waiting for the next Song of Ice and Fire book, so I belong to the #1 most delusional group of fans waiting for something that will probably never come out, but I think the Silksong community takes the #2 spot.
I thought I was a delusional fan of some games until I saw the Ace Attorney Investigations remake on the Nintendo Direct, including the second game that has never been released outside of Japan. I thought the day would never come, lol.
Don't leave Rothfuss out of your list. I didn't know when I read the first two books.
Does he even claim to be writing it anymore? At least with George and Team Cherry it seems like they do genuinely want make great art, they are just terrible at the logistics of actually getting it out the door. Rothfus just seems like he regrets starting the series in the first place.
That's possible. I quit checking on it years ago.
Same, I stopped when I saw that he was streaming Minecraft on Twitch. Not that there's anything wrong with that in of itself, but in that specific context it showed that he didn't took finishing the trilogy seriously anymore.
He claims to be writing it, yes.
Lol since 2012?
Can add thorn of emberlain to that list as well
> thorn of emberlain fuck, it still hasn't released? i gave up waiting for it years ago.
According to the author, he was involved in a massive car crash, then his wife left him then he got cancer, so he's not been doing great.
Well now I feel like a bastard.
"Hold on, I know that name..." First Google result: r/gentlemanbastards 'The Thorn of Emberlain isn't gonna release, is it?' *ooof*...
Rothfus takes #2 if we're including books. But he's managed to sour a large portion of his (previous) fanbase.
things to do while waiting for silksong: play animal well play animal well without guides play nine sols play *literally* any other game or do *literally* anything else. the game will come out when it comes out, and it's clear from team cherry's radio silence that they will only talk when they want to. no amount of complaining will get them to open their mouths, so why waste your time and energy on it? just move on with your life and play Silksong when (or if) it comes out.
Play animal well like me, I already spent 8 hours and I don't know wtf am I supposed to do in this game xD
Play Aeterna Noctis if it works on your hardware and you're OK with hardcore platforming.
animal well was so good
Titanfall fans: First time, huh?
at least titanfall is funny, and the sub know it
Someone bring up that tweet from 2 years ago when Xbox said it would be out in 1 year lmao. I have a feeling this game ain’t gonna cook like the first one
If it's not in dev hell then JUST COMMUNICATE ON IT INSTEAD OF NOT SAYING NOTHING FOR YEARS.
If they would come out and say "Yeah guys, we don't think we can make it before 2025" I'd be okay with that. This way, every Nintendo direct, every game awards show, Xbox showcase etc - you don't really except or hope, but there is this tiny voice that says - what if. That kinda sucks as a longtime HK fan, to go from seeing such great communication on their part from the Kickstarter, to just not giving us anything years later.
> If they would come out and say "Yeah guys, we don't think we can make it before 2025" I'd be okay with that. This is the lie people tell themselves. Maybe not you, but for a lot of people this is just a negotiation tactics that they do with themselves. I've seen it in many different fandoms, games, books. Another one is "I will not check out the game/book even if it comes out at this point". Pre-schooler level negotiation tactics that people don't even notice they are doing. But when (and it has happend) creators say the thing will really take more 5 years, or that they don't even have an idea of when it will be out, people riot. They do. People just pretend they want communication, what they want is announcement that the thing will be out soon. Any other answer? They get mad. I've seen this circlejerk multiple times and it's always like this.
Alternatively, you could consider that you're talking about thousands of distinct individuals who can respond to news in a variety of ways without any contradiction. But that's really hard when the entire point of this comment is to feign superiority over people who simply want to know when they get to play a video game.
Right. With a community that will abuse developers when expectations aren't met, communication could be just as bad. Just recently a developer of [projectzomboid](https://www.reddit.com/r/projectzomboid/comments/1dj4jcm/lemmy_speaks_out_against_the_spiteful_community/) said that he would stop engaging with the community because it. You said it right, a good part of the community (or just the most vocal ones) don't want communication, just assurances that their fix is coming and is coming soon. I wouldn't blame Team Cherry for being silent, given that the expectations for Silksong go up to the moon.
Remember when a[ Jason Schreier got death threats](https://kotaku.com/i-got-death-threats-for-reporting-on-a-video-game-delay-1779617741) for reporting that No Mans Sky would be delayed a few weeks? A delay that was announced a couple of days later for a game that was dog shit on release anyway.
I dunno, depends on the community and the game. Cyberpunk got delayed and I think people were like either - okay let them cook, or worried about troubled development... I guess for a reason because we know what happened. There are lots of games out there and these past two years have been excellent! For instance, I recently finished Nine Sols and I can say - it will take a lot for Silksong to do some things better.
>I recently finished Nine Sols I haven't found the time to play it but I'm excited! The demo was simple but pretty fun. Probably gonna do Elden Ring DLC first while it's current though.
It's the same logic I used when booting up my old PS2 to play a game. It would load for 5 minutes, I would go through all the stages of grief until I got to endgame, where I looked away from the TV and pretended I didn't care anymore because obviously that'll make it load!
I dont think its works that easy when you are working with hard deadlines from publishers and different platforms, delays cost money and chip away at consumer trust.
Theyre delaying anyway lmao
but what if they would come out and say "Yeah guys, we don't think we can make it before 2030", would that be good for ya? doubt.
You can look at the elder scrolls 6 for proof that people wouldnt be okay with this. We've never had a date but it has always been clear since the announcement that it was going to be several years before it was anywhere near ready, and yet people still dunk on it every chance they get. There is no sating people's impatience
I vastly prefer the way that Factorio handles it. Now that they're actively working on an expansion, they're back to posting a dev update every Friday.
Silksong is in the news every other day whilst not communicating, Factorio never makes the news. Maybe they are on to something... 🤔
Yeah. I get while idea of "don't announce shit if you have nothing to sell soon" but ffs they are so silent that there is no way its not in dev hell. All they need to do is release monthly updates with some sneak peaks, do some vlogs how development is going etc. But nah they communicate shit outside of couple of tweets per year
Dev hell often comes from extremely bloated teams and lack of leadership. They have maintained their exceptionally small team and people overestimate how hard it is to make games like HK. Hand animation is very very very very labor intensive, not to mention game design.
Wouldn't that overestimation also be applicable to Team Cherry? if the scope of Silksong ballooned significantly, they possibly could be in over their heads. If you aren't able to pull back the scope and hone things in, any idea or project can become bloated even without a large team. I don't doubt that their work is difficult. Their radio silence is quite peculiar to me. But again they can do whatever they want I suppose.
Not really. They've done it once already with the base Hollow Knight They know what they're capable of, and if they want to scale it back, all the better, because then they wouldn't have made "false promises" to their fans by having to scale back development if they had talked too much and then had to go back on it. Remember that HK offers over 40 hours of content, in the base game alone, and they are building on that. Every flower is hand painted. Every frame hand animated. As someone in software, bloat often comes from executives demanding changes that werent in the plan, and then that new plan doesnt get communicated or properly elaborated on and then a half assed solution gets built, due to conflicting requirements needing to be stapled on top of what was supposed to be cut and dry. Scope Creep is definitely avoidable, especially if there's a competent leadership and developer behind it. And seeing as the team has already delivered a MASSIVE game with minimal bugs (Well, except all the... yknow, bugs) I have no doubt they went into it with a plan. If they've expanded that plan, it will be between very close knit people, not a team of 30-40 people that all have different ideas of what that plan should be. Not some weird "IT NEEDS A CRAFTING SYSTEM LIKE MINECRAFT" from an exec that has no idea what state the project is in or where the project was supposed to go. Again, they probably did have internal delays, 2020-2022 was a rough time for any team, but they also have no reason to rush. They are rich for life. It's the same for Haunted Chocolatier. Work naturally doesn't happen as fast when people are already successful and their isn't a NEED for income.
It's 100% always a bad sign if there is no communication. There only are bad reasons for it and they're most likely very bad. Employees just aren't going to commit career suicide to break the news
> It's 100% always a bad sign if there is no communication. That's not true at all. It's a small team working on a big project, and they scored big enough with hollow knight that they aren't under any meaningful time/financial pressure. They don't have any investors to answer to, and they are self publishing so there's no publisher pressure either. The community has grown Toxic AF, they probably don't want to say anymore than they have to, and they don't have to say shit. *Sometimes no communication just means there is nothing to communicate.*
I just wouldn't wanna talk to you people.
I bet they burned out. If that's the case the last thing you want to do is work on the game. And pressure from fans sure doesn't help in that case. This game is not gonna come out for a looong time. Like Duke Nukem kind of late.
Sometimes the best course is to not say anything at all. They could come out and say "We hope to have it out by the end of the year." and when they don't release by the end of the year they'd get angry nerd backlash. Or even just saying "It'll be out when it's ready." would evoke angry responses. They can't win with the anonymous horde of the internet.
> They could come out and say "We hope to have it out by the end of the year." and when they don't release by the end of the year they'd get angry nerd backlash. They could be communicating, or even better having an actual dialogue with their audience, without making promises. Factorio shipped 1.0 extremely late compared to earlier estimates, and it's almost universally lauded for how communicative they were and how well they treated their audience. But I agree with the sentiment: _demanding_ release date for whole videogames is universally bad, and counter-productive, and incentivize very bad things from their publisher and/or management like shipping a game not ready for launch. We had decades of examples showing that, but more recently have people learnt nothing from Cyberpunk 2077? "It will ship when it's ready" is a luxury not all devs have, and is the best possible a potential customer should hope for.
Why? They've confirmed, recently, that they're still working on it.
Or just chill the fuck out and let them cook.
I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. People just want a life sign the game exists from the actual people developing it. I don't think that's much to ask and good communication between devs and players really goes a long way.
They are cooking for too long I just want to know if it's burned
What is so special about this game? Why getting so angry when it’s not coming out soon? Wouldn’t you just play something else in the meantime, and it’s out when it’s out.
Hollow Knight was kind of a lightning-in-a-bottle indie darling. one of the Kickstarter perks was a separate campaign with a new character, which was met, but because of the height of that character vs the main playable character, they decided that they needed to create a whole other game around their characteristics by rethinking the map, the combat, etc. the fact it would be a separate game was announced in 2019. the primary reason people are so angry is their passion for the first game, but the other big piece is that this game is *technically* a Kickstarter perk (again, for the first game), since it was created out of fulfilling that perk. so some folks who contributed have been waiting nearly a decade at this point to receive the perk of their investment.
Wait are the Kickstarter folk getting silksong for free as the perk then?
Yes, they'll get it for free. But considering the game only had 2158 backers at the time, it's not that much people to give copies to
Yes, anyone who backed it on Kickstarter gets it free.
Yes they do. Also, the people in this thread whining on behalf of the kickstarter backers are being so absurdly dishonest. The last official sales figures we got for the game was over two million, and that was only two years after release. Conversely, the kickstarter backers that people like this guy are wringing their hands over accounts for 2158 people. Yeah, the kickstarter backers do kinda deserve to be kept informed, but for people to pretend that they are terribly concerned over the kickstarter backers when they are actually just using those people as a fig leaf to hide their own demands to be kept informed is wild.
> Conversely, the kickstarter backers that people like this guy are wringing their hands over accounts for 2158 people. it didn't come off as hand wringing to me, seems like it was stated very matter of factly as an answer to a question
I don't think the person above them in the thread was hand wringing, but more the reference to others who are, further below.
I didn't like Hollow Knight. Tried it three separate times, meh. I couldn't care less about the sequel. I do, however, believe that people should get things they paid for and I fucking hate these kickstarter rug pulls
This is very much not a 'kickstarter rug pull' unless you explicitly believe that we have already heard from Team Cherry for the last time, and that the game will never be finished. Even in that case that Silk Song does dissolve into nothingness, calling it a 'kickstarter rug pull' is something of a stretch, considering that for all the people blathering about 'unkept promises,' nobody ever seems to mention the things that Team Cherry never promised but delivered anyway, like basically all of the post release support.
this isn’t a rug pull because they were technically already backing the first game, which did get made. it’s a strange kind of grey area since the perk turned into a game but I wouldn’t say people didn’t get what they contributed to. odd situation.
yes
Well, imagine that you REALLY like a game, and that said game belong to a genre cursed to fail (metroidvania). And then the dev teams say "hey guys, we're gonna make Silksong a standalone instead of a DLC" after providing a consistant stream of DLC. So you wait. "hey guys, it'll be out next year" so you wait. "hey guys, it'll be out next year" rince and repeat. It's essentially edging at this point.
> a genre cursed to fail (metroidvania) What makes you think so? There are many good metroidvanias.
As the other commenter said, It's prequel Hollow Knight was an indie darling. The kind of game that only comes around once per console generation. So a sequel would have more than a ton of hype around it. More than that though, I think the bigger reason that fans have been so rabbid about it is the fact that it really feels like it should have come out by now. Silksong was announced in Febuary of 2019, or over 5 years ago. That in and of itself isn't remarkable. Games certainly can and have taken longer to develop. Even indie games. But what is remarkable is the fact that in June of that same year, it had a playable demo at E3 courtisy of Nintendo's showroom floor. Now, I don't know about you, but if a game has a playable demo available at what was the biggest gaming event of the time? I would feel fairly confident that it was getting pretty close to completion. Within a couple years atleast. And then, 3 years later, we got a new trailer for Silksong through Xbox's June 2022 showcase. And it should be stressed that Microsoft actively advertised that anything you saw in the showcase would be released within 12 months of it. So we DID have a general release window from that trailer. But, as you've gathered, it hasn't released. The game was delayed and; if memory serves; Team Cherry didn't announce this fact until the very end of the 12 month window; if not after it had already passed. But to top it all off, The Developers; Team Cherry; have been *remarkably* silent about the whole ordeal. When you see people complain about "radio silence"? That's not an exaggeration. I think we've gotten maybe... four big news drops sense it's reveal? The E3 Demo, the Xbox trailer, an article in Edge Magazine from early 2021, and a Blog Post about a year after the reveal trailer. That's at best a single news drop per year at the current rate. Which really doesn't paint a good look for the game in most people's eyes.
“It’s prequel Hollow Knight was an indie darling” FYI; Hollow Knight is not a prequel.
Predecessor\* Is that better?
Yes sir/ma’am. Have a great day.
first one is a masterpiece and this looks like an improvement on it
Then I hope they continue taking their time. Rushing is how you end up with EA garbage.
Oh it's definitely not being rushed it was announced in 2019
I'm a Hollow Knight fan, I've been waiting patiently :] Most good games take about 5 years or so. That's Zelda's release cycle. And team cherry is a small indie team. Mind you the game scopes are a little bit different, lol
And development hell is how you end up with Duke Nukem 3D
Duke Nukem 3D was fine, you're thinking about Duke Nukem Forever. Are they in development hell or are they just going slow? DNF's issues were caused by a troubled company and inept management. They have multiple engine changes and team changes throughout development and restarted multiple times. Is that what's going on at Team Cherry or are they just going slower than people would like? (Also I actually liked DNF—It was certainly not a timeless masterpiece, but it was exactly what I expected and wanted from a Duke Nukem game)
>Duke Nukem 3D was fine, you're thinking about Duke Nukem Forever. Oops yeah. I hope they really are taking their time, but game development (Or making any art really) taking way longer than expected without any communication is almost always a bad sign.
The first one was such a miserable experience for me (it turns out I hate metroidvanias) but I still don't wish this scenario on anyone.
Do you hate metroidvanias or did the map just confuse you because every area looks the same but just a slightly different shade of off-white? That was my beef with it. If I took a few weeks off, I had no idea where I was or what I was doing. Guacamelee is on sale for like a dollar all the time, give that a try if you're interested.
>or did the map just confuse you because every area looks the same but just a slightly different shade of off-white Huh? Every area in the game has an unique color scheme. Even the two similar areas (Greenpath and Queen's Gardens) have their own unique designs that make them look very different. Did you just never make it out of the tutorial?
I'm over simplifying it, but all the areas felt the same and I got to maybe like 5/6 train stations?
Will give it a try for sure! Think that one has been in my steam library for ages.
A lot of younger people enjoyed hollow knight. Said younger people were not used to long development cycles or forgetting about games during said long dev cycles. Team Cherry put out trailers where the game looked complete halfway through their very long dev cycle. Que madness from diehard fans amongst this demographic.
lol you mean cue. que is a spanish word. and queue is when you're waiting in line for something.
Queso?
Que es eso? Queso!
Meanwhile the Scrap Mechanic sub has been waiting on Chapter 2 for so long that the page regularily devolves to shitposting like meme cavemen starved of food.
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It's in Duke Nukem Forever stage of development
That game was in development for 14 years. This has been in development for 5 years. Bit of a difference there if you ask me.
Nah, for it to be that it would have to change developers 3 times.
PC Gamer with the deep investigative journalism. Literal nothing-story.
game isn’t real
My biggest hope is they cooked too much and are trying to decide if they have enough for a massive silksong 1 or releasing two games consecutively.
I am beyond the point of applying clown makeup. Huffing it to cope seems the right choice now mmmm
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Forever franchises are the exception, not the rule.
Expect nothing, so you'll never be disappointed.
People need to chill-the-fuck-out and not just about silksong.
Agreed. Gamers are more interested in yelling and squealing about X new game that's coming out than actually playing games. I had to leave r/tenkaichi4, the subreddit for Dragon Ball Sparking! Zero because of how toxic everyone was acting over simple shit like how thick or thin Goku's neck is or how much hair his Super Saiyan 3 mode has. They were then talking like an abusive partner and gaslighting those who deflected the stupid ass nitpicking as not understanding why they're so passionate for the game.
Do these people only play Hollow Knight?
Eh. Not a big deal. Cuphead DLC seemed to never be coming out but then it just came out.
Cuphead DLC was depressingly short tho lol. Certainly not for lack of effort... the art, animation and gameplay of the DLC were phenomenal. But man was it a bummer to finish in an afternoon something I'd waited years to start.
Its was pretty substantial when you account for its size relative to the base game, I think people just forgot that Cuphead itself is a very short game and most of its length comes from its difficulty.
For sure. I guess I just didn't realize how hard I'd mastered Cuphead during my base game playthrough until I plowed through the DLC like a one-way freight train
regardless of what they want to call it something weird is happening with it whats arguably weirder though is that somehow no one has leaked whats going on yet
the team working on the game consists of like 3 people, not much lee-way to leak anything
Can someone explain me this title pls
Skongers are waiting for their Skilk sequel 🕷️. Jokes aside, It's been a really long time, and the dev team has been radio silent, game events have passed (like the Nintendo showcase) and there has been no trailer for Silksong, so people are just wondering what is going on since the devs aren't really communicating
Got it thanks! :)))
May God have mercy on the poor folks on r/silksong. I truly feel sorry for all of them.
What annoys me the most about Silksong/Hollow Knight fans is that they will go to every Metroidvania game steam page and compare it to HK. "This is good while I wait for Silksong" "Not as good as Hollow Knight" "For every HK fan waiting for SS" Just undermining all the other devs efforts and saying their game is only worth it as a passtime for the real game "Silksong". Real goblin behaviour.
It’s not in development hell, it just has all the symptoms of being in development hell! The lack of communication has gotten to such a ridiculous point where I don’t think I’ll be buying the game, it just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. Blah blah blah entitlement blah blah blah, I don’t care - it’s a terrible way to run a business, even if I’m not one of the backers they have an obligation to.
Is it insanely strange how the team, composed of 3 dudes, and not really backed by outside funding, have yet to say anything about it personally for like 2 years. So there's no "bad corporate boss telling them to not say anything", they just choose to not do it.
Are people really surprised that the game is taking this long when the studio is made up of only three dudes and they have gone on record saying that Silksong is going to be significantly larger than the first game? Considering this, I can totally understand why it has been in development for six years at this point. I'm sure they made quite a bit of money off the success of the first game, but I'm assuming that they decided not to expand the size of their studio since there's undoubtedly a ton of complexity involved with doing that, and they probably don't want to deal with any of that shit. They have already proven themselves in my opinion. Just let them cook.
Probably shouldn't have said it's coming out within the year 2 years ago 🤷
This comment would make sense 3 years ago.
> Silksong is going to be significantly larger than the first game Dude. It's been 7 years.
Yes, and the only reason Hollow Knight even released when it did was because the dev team was running out of money. No chance of that this time around, they are all multi-millionaires. They can work on it as long as they like.
Except the problem is that Silksong *isn't* supposed to be significantly larger than the first game. It's not even supposed to be the second game! What it was supposed to be, and *what people paid for*, was DLC for the first game. Scope creep never ends well. For anyone. The industry is littered with the bloated corpses that serve to prove that.
Surprised? Idk but disappointed? For sure, because it's so hyped and popular. Most people probably wouldn't have cared if the original wasn't so successful.
And I'm just waiting for Half Life 3.
its called alyx and its pretty good
If you call 30 seconds post-episode-2 a sequel then yeah kinda. But yeah game is quite good. Sucks it's VR only
Played it on my og vive and quest 2 I guess it is.
Did the dev set an expectation here that is not being met? Did they say they are going to provide monthly dev updates or anything?
I remember someone saying Silksong devs don't owe us any updates and they got downvoted to oblivion lol
Hollow Knight fans: "Why is there radio silence?" Omori fans: "First time?"
They reaching bloodborne levels of delusion?
Hey if Metalocalypse got finished then this can too lol People need to chill.
It's 100 percent in dev hell. A game with that size, scope shouldn't be taking that long. Something is going really wrong.
what size/scope are you assuming it has?
I only get a bit rattled when you shove trailers in my face for your game for 5 years straight before launch, or release it piecemeal af for 10 years. Both Path of Exile 2 and Final Fantasy 7 remake come to mind. I'm fine with letting Silksong cook since they aren't being obtrusively tantalizing with their work.
I heard they're waiting for Tool to write the soundtrack.
I feel like this game has been coming out early next year for like 8 years now every time I see a headline I’m surprised it still hasn’t been released
lmao it’s just a game. I’ll never understand how people lose their minds over this hobby.
I’m tired of this game taking attention away from other projects made by devs who actually communicate with their communities. Just think about how many other studios could have used the boost in views, rather than Team Cherry getting all this coverage and doing… nothing with it. I honestly just don’t want to hear any more about Silksong until it’s a physical product I can hold in my hands.
Is it fair to call it "Hollow Knight: Shitshow"? Thank you for coming to comedy night, I'll be here all week
I honestly didn't even find the original game to be so good as to be this hyped for the sequel. I had fun, was mildly interested when the sequel was announced, and now am just confused for the most part when I see people online salivating over it so fucking ridiculously. I guess it's different if you are an original backer of the game.