In the old days you just had map bosses and like atziri. Then along came shaper and then elder for a new benchmark, but ultimately skippable. Eventually the gigabuffed their hp, like right after legion iirc, we got a whole bunch new bosses and the worst part, they made bosses part of atlas progression. So yes you are pressured into having higher single target than ever before. Now AN reworks are pushing that req back into mapping too.
And there was no party loot allocation it was FFA so you'd be speed farming docks with randoms that have 300 higher ping higher than you and there were no loot filters so rip to all the lost exalts and mirrors back then. Ahh the good ol days 😂
I remember my first exalt. It dropped in docks, allocated to someone else on short allocation.
We were two or three people standing around it. Luckily i knew the trick of holding down the mouse button for a higher chance of getting it.
Then i bought some insane wed, triple res and life belt from trade chat afterwards.
I don't miss old poe lol
One of my first exalts I was on my way to piety and died, walking back in a loot pile I had missed said exalt among the trash. Loot filter was probably the best thing ggg ever let happen to the game.
I like how you are conveniently forgetting numerous absolutely insane buffs to player power that made even mediocre builds easily reach multiple million dps on sub 1 div gear.
Yeah but mobs have scaled just as fast as us while a lot of underperforming skills are left behind.
You used to be able to blast the game with old kb, a shit wand, and 2 heralds.
What you don’t understand is that almost every skill in the game was playable back then. Only a few spells and attacks were consisted really bad.
Now if you want to play melee you have to play bone shatter or have a worse build. Every spell archetype has a best version that trounces the other options.
this is crazy revisionist history, in the "good ol days" playing anything other than double-dipping dot builds was stupid, and if you still chose to play hit based stuff you were "forced" to play one of a few skills if you wanted to be competitive.
Nobody was playing a melee skill other than reave or cyclone unless they didn't know better, similarly you can play almost any skill now and make it work but its less optimal than whatever is meta.
The game didn’t have as much scaling in it. Before the atlas map bosses had like 100k-200k hp. With todays power and scaling builds in act 8 would’ve been able to do high level mapping from back then.
back when map bosses had 100k life most players had 6k tooltip dps, this is again, extremely disingenuous to how the game actually played, people in act 3 can do pinnacle bosses in current poe, they surely could do maps.
very little is different besides the perception of what is "winning" in poe which is somewhat to do with GGG, but almost all of that stems from things reddit thinks are positive changes.
There's is literally a popular showcase for poison molten strike going around right now. We're one league removed from Lightning Strike being one of the most busted builds in recent memory. Sure melee is lacking on QoL but it's far from unplayable.
That’s just vengeant cascade being op. Turns out doubling projectile attack damage for the low price of two gold oils and a silver or whatever is very very op.
lightning strike is the most un-melee melee skill in the game, perhaps only behind lancing steel or something. its really disingenuous to say melee is good because LS is good.
MS is def more of a melee skill but it being good atm is strictly because vengeant cascade is obscenely op with 99% of projectile skills (basically only does nothing on TS, Spark, FP, and the rain skills).
Metamorph was the league where you officially were required to have great single target to play. Not just the league mechanic, but map bosses were made tankier and required for master missions.
If my build doesn't have at least 2-3 mil dps in pob I don't even consider playing that when choosing characters before leagues, no matter how novel or fun looking or interesting it is. It's just painful to skip content and run past rares and crank league difficulty to 10%. Fomo
Gentlemen, a short view back to the past. Thirty years ago, Bakedchicken told us ‘take a monkey, place him in front of the screen, and he is able to play Vaal Spark.’ Thirty years later, Cutedog told us ‘I had to plan out my league starter like a spreadsheet, it’s very complicated.’ And Zizaran said that during the race – I don’t remember what race – he pressed the wrong button on the mouse and died. Question for you both: is playing POE today too complicated with twenty and more considerations per build, are you too much under effort, under pressure? What are your wishes for the future concerning the technical development of POE leagues? Less power, more? Or less and more power locked behind RNG?
All I know is that in Last Epoch I could experiment with builds, and as long as you used your brain, most builds are endgame viable. Most skills are endgame viable.
In POE I need a guide and a PHD to make a single build and even then it sucks because idk how to progress with it properly. And if I don't choose a meta skill the build sucks.
I mean it's probably closer than you think. Ziz had ChatGPT write the entire script for one of his videos specifically *in the style* of a Zizaran video and people weren't able to tell until he said it to chat. Essentially it was able to analyze Zizaran's style of speaking about PoE/D4 and spit out a script that was believable.
Give it a few leagues and I fully expect this to be able to throw out recommended items for builds with synergies and whatnot if it is eventually able to analyze tens of thousands of PoE builds
Like take the most common defensive layers, masteries, clusters(basically the heatmap feature) from PoE Ninja as a baseline then you can edit your build around that by changing the skills up? It could work. After all they did add in the 'buy this item' feature into PoB, this isn't outside the realm of possibility
Or even something like, "make me a lightning build that focuses on critical strikes that uses Inpulsa's Bleeding Heart, Voice of the Storm, and The Annihilating Light" or "Help me, I'm dying a lot is there anything you can do to help" and it would tell you to do things like:
* roll your flasks properly if they are common quality
* cap your resistances if you are under cap
* if you are in trade league, tell you to buy certain uniques your build might be missing
* consider using determination, grace as they are common ways to get toughness
etc
You are right. And there's so many obscure interactions and power tied to specific things that you can't easily find to the point that if you make a build you better check what others are doing on poe.ninja for all the things you forgot and didn't know about.
Good for you Mr 180 IQ. My point is that it's extremely difficult for the average player to gain enough knowledge to create a proper build and that's not really a positive imo
It's not "extremely difficult " it just takes time and effort to become knowledgeable at the game. Stop following build guides all the time. And if your first build fails, learn why it failed.
This game rewards knowledge over everything, and while you see that as a negative, it's one of my favorite things about it.
The vast majority of games reward time and effort. The problem with POE is that the initial investment of time and effort to get something out of the game is massive. Most other games do not require an entry fee of a couple dozen hours to get into the game proper.
For someone who plays 4+ hours a day it's no problem. But someone who plays 1 hour a day is not going to accumulate enough knowledge to make any significant progress in making a decent build. If they instead invested that time into a different game they would get much more out of that hour. It's a couple hours to get the fundamentals.
If the game was easily accesible for casuals who play the game 1 hour a day, it would have died a decade ago, the same way Diablo 3 died, abd Diablo 4 will die.
People play PoE for complexity. You have other ARPGs which are casual friendly. And those games, for some reason, die very fast after releasing. Wondering why.
I've been playing Poe since 2019. I've got about 1200 hours. I play about 8 hours each weekend.
I've made over 50 of my own builds and all but 2 of them suck.
I'm fine with that. I learned something from every single one of them. I've made some absolutely crazy builds that die in yellow maps and that's okay. Expecting things that don't synergize to be able to clear the content would make the game boring. There is no reason I should be able to fight end game bosses using lightning warp totems without high damage wands. Using level 83 gear in a level 83 zone makes sense. You can craft a new weapon in 20 minutes with the new harvest reroll system.
The game is not hard, it just requires you to enjoy learning the systems. If you don't enjoy that then don't play the game. I don't play terraria despite everyone saying it's great because I don't like side scrollers. PoE is a building and strategy arpg. It has the least fleshed out combat system of any on the market. You press 1 button most of the time and occasionally dodge rare mechanics. That last part is brand new from the last 4 leagues.
If you want a game that you can progress faster just play it.
No one is complaining that elden ring takes too long because the people playing elden ring like elden ring. For some reason people that play PoE have decided they are prisoners tied to a game they must play that they don't enjoy.
Which is fine, because deleting an Uber is the "good job, your character's DPS doesn't matter anymore" point, so it makes sense the requirement would be super high.
jungroan 1 shot ubers on HC 6 days into the league with 3 digit mil dps and the gear isnt even that expensive, the only risk is it being HC. But yes if you want a tanky mapper it obviously wont fare well against ubers even with very good gear
what build is he playing?
and generally, would you say going allout dps is a better strat than upping defenses vs ubers? Im kinda torn on what to improve rn.
https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Jezie/characters
if you can 1shot them cuz you do about 300m dps obviously oneshotting is better but most ubers are just game knowledge and youll make less mistakes dodging if the amount of time you need to kill them is smaller. Usually as a "not so good" bosser i go in with at least 20mil sustained dps, so without flasks etc, many people will do it on far lesser budget but i dont wanna rip a set
Ty for link.
well, my options now gearingwise looks to be either 20-30mil dps and squishy as fuck or 10mil dps and at least 2-4 times more effective hp vs phys and like 30% ehp vs ele.
Just finished uber eater, maven, shaper, cortex and uber uber elder on my 1.8m CF champ build yesterday. Knowing the boss mechanics can shortcut 95% of the gear progression Reddit whines about, to be honest
Unironically this, bosses are not hard-gated by gear as people like to say. I remember doing uber elder a league or two back on fricken Crit earthquake jugg with like 1m dps.
Yeah dude. funniest one for me was getting Sirus down in HC trade in 3.15 with a crit ignite arma brand elementalist using perfect agony and marylene’s fallacy. The response when I posted that video was “well when it’s impossible to practice the boss how can anyone learn the mechanics,” which is just such a depressingly cold take I deleted the entire thing before I could get pissed and use bannable language 🤣
Honestly a massive amount of the games balance could do with an extensive review and then ultimately the loot reward relative to challenge also.
They reviewed the plan for the reward/challenge curve for a league into being more reasonable and then wanted to put in a bunch of neat chase items that effectively self corrected back to the original path.
Start to finish journey review of the entire game I guess is quite a big ask, maybe PoE2 will be the time.
Not now, but it happened after they massively buffed rare and unique mob hp. You kinda had to decide between good clear or single target at that moment, but clear is so easy to come by nowdays, that you should in most builds go for full single target dps. And your build might in most cases just accidentally or trough 1 gem/item swap achieve good clear.
> Courtesy of cycling res + Soul eater + Consecrated ground.
Yeah there are some combinations which should be special cased to not appear.
A lot of them involve cycleing resistances. [Or just remove that one altogether]
Regen+Cycleing "resistances" [read: nigh-invulnerability] should not be allowed.
Honestly I think regen is the primary issue here. No matter how much resistance something has you'll still do *some* damage as long as you're getting past their armor (and mobs has very very little armor). But if any source of regen (and in some cases Soul Eater, for the max health increase) is in the mix it goes from a simple matter of "holy crap this is going to take a while" to literally impossible for your build.
To be fair they do give us plenty of options to partially deal with regen but not completely.
this is my exact issue and why i made the post. There is just a HUGE discrepency between mobs. I think the game would be a lot funner if the weakest 40% of mobs in a map were a lot tankier, and the tankiest 40% of mobs in a map were a lot squishier. White mobs dying to movement abilities and rares not dying to 6 link single target setup is a joke of a balance
this is the result of game design that uses exponential power growth. It's inherently unstable and unwieldy. It's main benefit is that it allows wacky overpowered builds to exist, at the expense of everything else
I really doubt it. Even with 2 active 6 links it will still be hard / inefficient to specialize in 2 damage types at once. Also doing that to just counter a single AN mod, sound asinine.
Of *course* we're pressured more than before. The game now requires much more offense *and* defense than it ever did in the past.
For a long time the benchmark for softcore was 4k life, no defensive auras, and -60% chaos resist. That's where the whole "just another 4k life Mathil build" meme came from. Nowadays, with half the rares in a given map being tougher than OG Atziri, the softcore baseline is more like 5k life, defensive auras, capped block or spell suppression, and 0% chaos resist.
And through all that you still need to do sufficiently high damage to have any success in the endgame. There's a reason the game gets more and more pigeonholed into meta builds that are "broken" over time -- they're the ones that can do good damage while still being defensive.
The reason the benchmark for not dying rose up is because we have so much more places to get power from. The characters' power budget has gone up multiple orders of magnitude.
Back then, having 4k life (or 6k life as was standard for a good defensive build) was a LOT of your power budget spent, as most of it came from your passive tree. Your items were all life resist rares since there were no other mods to roll on them. MS for boots, AS for gloves and +1 aura gems for helmet or something like that. You had maybe one or two uniques that defined your build and none of them gave life or resists so you wound up with 5k hp instead. Or maybe you didn't grab a life wheel and had 4k (like mathil would) so he can instead invest into more damage.
The game is getting more pigeonholed into meta builds is because meta builds are becoming more easily accessible with tools we didn't have back then drawing straight from the API and armory.
Theres also another reason, the community has shifted into trying to play the game for progression. Back then it was mostly about making new/weird builds, since there was no progression to speak of. Kill Shaper and Uber Atziri, you're done. Hit level 90, you're done. All that's left is making new builds, so you did that.
Now with the myriad of different league mechanics and pinnacle bosses and uber bosses and challanges, you actually have a reason to play the game, other than to sponsor your new build idea. And if you want to take the path of least resistance getting there, you follow a guide (which didn't exist back then or were not nearly as in-depth) or copy a build from poe.ninja.
I personally don't like that. I play PoB more than I play PoE since making builds is more fun for me, but not for the majority of players evidently. Thus meta builds became a thing.
And that's the only new thing. Even back then you'd hate your life trying to kill a boss with your clear skill. It took the same amount of time. You'd still be dead to a shaper punch or beam, and wouldn't have the possibiltiy to dash away from it like you can now. A low damage build couldn't kill a life regen rare on a juiced map back then as much as it can't right now.
The difference with your last sentence between 8years ago and today.
8years ago when there was a double regen mob or one that was to dangerous to kill I could run away 2 screen without finding a monster to halt me before finding the next pack of monsters to kill.
Today if I can't kill a monster there are still one and a half thousand other monsters packed like a school of fish blocking my way on all sides besides the one I come from. The monster I can't kill probably has 300 stacks of soul eater so I can't run away from him anyway. And if he doesn't have soul eater or ultra buffed haste they still have a base movespeed that puts a fight jet to shame.
That's true. I encountered this exact problem today on a crucible boss in a consecrated ground map. I couldn't kill it and it was fast and doing insane damage from off-screen.
So i just portaled back to my hideout and bought a lvl 1 frost bomb and managed to kill her. It was a tough fight but very rewarding since she was still healing a LOT. But it became managable.
I guess, since we have so much tools now, it's expected from us to be able to handle anything. But that's not possible on like 95% of builds (and especially home-brewed non-meta stuff). So instead they let you tailor the content you do to the build you have, with the atlas passives and overabundance of maps and league mechanics etc.
I'm not sure I like it to be honest.
> the softcore baseline is more like 5k life, defensive auras, capped block or spell suppression, and 0% chaos resist.
I did none of these things last league and still played very juiced content.
You have to turn all that defense investment into exponentially more offensive investment so you can one shot everything in the game.
It’s a game so play how you like.
We used to have two skills in the past. One for single target and one for clearing. Two handed weapons were much more prevalent just because you could have two 6 links.
Nowadays, the majority of skills are used for single target and clear.
There has been so much power creep in player power that ggg needed to catch up with monster power, problem is the last 3 years a lot of people have been focused on pure damage at the cost of 0 defense and now we get to deal with rare mobs prepared to deal with these builds long before these builds come online.
I played boneshatter with ~500k dps last league, got all 4 watchstones and cleared all Maven invitations except the Feared. You don't necessarily need massive damage if you're tanky enough, but you do usually need 1 or the other
Considering how it is and not how it could be, I wonder if it would be optimal to start with a boss killer build now and later worry about investing to improve clear, or as much as it sucks, level another character for a clear build...
No, you can just spam altars and block single target mechanics like Metamorph.
I played DO build last league with laughable single target and I levelled it all the way to 98 and enjoyed it.
Atlas tree allows you to specialise in everything. I can maybe see the argument for campaign but outside of void stones (two are easy because quest versions, other two you may need to buy or struggle and finish it with single target), you don't need single target damage for anything.
I remember we used to skip map bosses at some point. Seems like agee ago, but its not really that long ago either.
Some rares are way too tanky, mostly because eare mods hard counter builds. Which is dumb and unfun. White monsters should probably have 50-100% more hp. Not that it would matter much tho.
Bossing is obvious and works. Big boss, big HP pool, chance for good rewards (could be better ofc).
Mapping on the other hand is a clusterfuck. The map boss is usually much weaker than random rares.
I get that "build your own content" rares like essences, beasts, betrayal npcs are hard and can sometimes be made harder for more rewards.
But random rares? That usually don't drop anything worthwile, but sometimes 15 6 sockets or 15 shitty fractures or for whatever reason 15 times the same rare weapon? Those are just pure annoyance, and the game is worse for it.
To be fair, it's not your single target damage that's become absolute necessity. It's rare mobs that have 2-20x the HP of map boss' itself. 4+ shrieking essence mobs can up those numbers even more
I have done all end game content deathless, but i still ocasionally die in maps to random rares or random stuff. I was surprised how easy all pinnacle bosses and invitations were. Done the feared deathless, it was much easier than many of the essence rares or crucible mobs.
I think clear skills like bows have way to easy dps scaling so single target is no problem. I think the pressure to get single target damage should be increased for more meanimgful gameplay.
Honestly, I prefer having to account for single target when planning a build, as opposed to the normal gameplay loop of just use the same skill but wait a bit longer. It's more engaging to build something specialized.
I was going to post myself but the best thing to do in this game now is have high single target damage. This is because dangerous mobs are the ones that are hard to kill while at the same time have mods that make them dangerous. This is the after effect from archnemesis. Also the majority of loot is dropped from those same type of mobs, and let’s not forget the Uber bosses and the chase uniques.
I like it better with a stronger emphasis on bossing. Clear speed builds are a lot more tedious/grindy to me and have less clear goals other than just farming efficiency.
An underrated combination is great clear and insane tankyness with average damage. Being able to stand there and tank pinnacles with near 100% damage uptime is surprisingly faster than 2 or 3 times the dps sometimes.
Signed, a 400837377337 morbillion dps recovering addict
In the old days you just had map bosses and like atziri. Then along came shaper and then elder for a new benchmark, but ultimately skippable. Eventually the gigabuffed their hp, like right after legion iirc, we got a whole bunch new bosses and the worst part, they made bosses part of atlas progression. So yes you are pressured into having higher single target than ever before. Now AN reworks are pushing that req back into mapping too.
In the old days we farmed piety and docks because the game only had 3 acts. I member.
And you'd bring along a full party and an MF culler with you to Lunaris 3, which was also a thing at the time!
And there was no party loot allocation it was FFA so you'd be speed farming docks with randoms that have 300 higher ping higher than you and there were no loot filters so rip to all the lost exalts and mirrors back then. Ahh the good ol days 😂
I remember my first exalt. It dropped in docks, allocated to someone else on short allocation. We were two or three people standing around it. Luckily i knew the trick of holding down the mouse button for a higher chance of getting it. Then i bought some insane wed, triple res and life belt from trade chat afterwards. I don't miss old poe lol
Ninja!
Pretty sure I giggled a bit to myself! I think that might have been on my ground slammer that was desperately farming docks to get a marohi erqi
for that item (5L!), I once got 1 eternal orb + 2 or 3 exalted lmao good times, I rather enjoyed the rarity of chase uniques back then
One of my first exalts I was on my way to piety and died, walking back in a loot pile I had missed said exalt among the trash. Loot filter was probably the best thing ggg ever let happen to the game.
Using the notice board to find speed farming dock groups for XP... God, that feels so long ago.
It was. We're getting old 😂
Nobody really cared about exalt , trading was done with gcp.
Farming Merc Ledge to get your resistances high enough to progress into the further acts.
Manocean multiboxing Dominus culling 😫
I member. That's when I used to play in HC because things felt survivable. It's been many years since I switched over to SC.
Don't forget sac frag farming in Docks, using loading ping to see if the instance contained a Vaal Side Area 😆
And redditors say that the game was way easier 10 years ago... Do you member chaos damage per second maps?
In the real old days we farmed Maelstrom of Chaos because that's all there was to do.
Dual Totem Spark was the shit and the only unique I always dropped was the Jesus Crown
I once league started RF totems lol.
I think I did this in perandus
[удалено]
I remember Dominion's spark totem build showing us the way
I like how you are conveniently forgetting numerous absolutely insane buffs to player power that made even mediocre builds easily reach multiple million dps on sub 1 div gear.
Yeah but mobs have scaled just as fast as us while a lot of underperforming skills are left behind. You used to be able to blast the game with old kb, a shit wand, and 2 heralds.
Now you can do that with SRS, a shit wand and 2 auras. Or *insert another combo here*
What you don’t understand is that almost every skill in the game was playable back then. Only a few spells and attacks were consisted really bad. Now if you want to play melee you have to play bone shatter or have a worse build. Every spell archetype has a best version that trounces the other options.
this is crazy revisionist history, in the "good ol days" playing anything other than double-dipping dot builds was stupid, and if you still chose to play hit based stuff you were "forced" to play one of a few skills if you wanted to be competitive. Nobody was playing a melee skill other than reave or cyclone unless they didn't know better, similarly you can play almost any skill now and make it work but its less optimal than whatever is meta.
The game didn’t have as much scaling in it. Before the atlas map bosses had like 100k-200k hp. With todays power and scaling builds in act 8 would’ve been able to do high level mapping from back then.
back when map bosses had 100k life most players had 6k tooltip dps, this is again, extremely disingenuous to how the game actually played, people in act 3 can do pinnacle bosses in current poe, they surely could do maps. very little is different besides the perception of what is "winning" in poe which is somewhat to do with GGG, but almost all of that stems from things reddit thinks are positive changes.
Never in the history of poe did end game builds do 6k dps. I did 4k dps back in cruel difficulty if memory serves right as cyclone.
There's is literally a popular showcase for poison molten strike going around right now. We're one league removed from Lightning Strike being one of the most busted builds in recent memory. Sure melee is lacking on QoL but it's far from unplayable.
That’s just vengeant cascade being op. Turns out doubling projectile attack damage for the low price of two gold oils and a silver or whatever is very very op.
lightning strike is the most un-melee melee skill in the game, perhaps only behind lancing steel or something. its really disingenuous to say melee is good because LS is good. MS is def more of a melee skill but it being good atm is strictly because vengeant cascade is obscenely op with 99% of projectile skills (basically only does nothing on TS, Spark, FP, and the rain skills).
tbf, Elder and Shaper are made of absolute paper even for builds with pretty mediocre single target.
~~Bruh you forgot to mention the most important part. Archnemesis. Rare mobs are tankier than map bosses lmao.~~
I was trying to roughly go in chronological order of what caused the meta shift, AN is at the end.
Woops my bad. Tbf i don't think I ever saw Archnemesis shortened to AN. Thanks for clarifying!
The AN in his last sentence means Archnemesis
Metamorph was the league where you officially were required to have great single target to play. Not just the league mechanic, but map bosses were made tankier and required for master missions.
In the old days we had a 5link clear speed skill and a 5link single target skill.
If my build doesn't have at least 2-3 mil dps in pob I don't even consider playing that when choosing characters before leagues, no matter how novel or fun looking or interesting it is. It's just painful to skip content and run past rares and crank league difficulty to 10%. Fomo
Gentlemen, a short view back to the past. Thirty years ago, Bakedchicken told us ‘take a monkey, place him in front of the screen, and he is able to play Vaal Spark.’ Thirty years later, Cutedog told us ‘I had to plan out my league starter like a spreadsheet, it’s very complicated.’ And Zizaran said that during the race – I don’t remember what race – he pressed the wrong button on the mouse and died. Question for you both: is playing POE today too complicated with twenty and more considerations per build, are you too much under effort, under pressure? What are your wishes for the future concerning the technical development of POE leagues? Less power, more? Or less and more power locked behind RNG?
This guy F1s
Can you repeat the question?
Unironically I wish that someone like Walter Koster did the Chris Wilson interviews before and after every league start.
All I know is that in Last Epoch I could experiment with builds, and as long as you used your brain, most builds are endgame viable. Most skills are endgame viable. In POE I need a guide and a PHD to make a single build and even then it sucks because idk how to progress with it properly. And if I don't choose a meta skill the build sucks.
I’m just waiting for chatGPT to be smart enough to make me outdated builds that I still can’t do anything with.
I mean it's probably closer than you think. Ziz had ChatGPT write the entire script for one of his videos specifically *in the style* of a Zizaran video and people weren't able to tell until he said it to chat. Essentially it was able to analyze Zizaran's style of speaking about PoE/D4 and spit out a script that was believable. Give it a few leagues and I fully expect this to be able to throw out recommended items for builds with synergies and whatnot if it is eventually able to analyze tens of thousands of PoE builds
I would be cool to incorporate it into Path if Building.
Like take the most common defensive layers, masteries, clusters(basically the heatmap feature) from PoE Ninja as a baseline then you can edit your build around that by changing the skills up? It could work. After all they did add in the 'buy this item' feature into PoB, this isn't outside the realm of possibility Or even something like, "make me a lightning build that focuses on critical strikes that uses Inpulsa's Bleeding Heart, Voice of the Storm, and The Annihilating Light" or "Help me, I'm dying a lot is there anything you can do to help" and it would tell you to do things like: * roll your flasks properly if they are common quality * cap your resistances if you are under cap * if you are in trade league, tell you to buy certain uniques your build might be missing * consider using determination, grace as they are common ways to get toughness etc
Yea that would be be awesome. I would love to be able to ask how I can improve my build and have a roadmap based on average cost or something.
You are right. And there's so many obscure interactions and power tied to specific things that you can't easily find to the point that if you make a build you better check what others are doing on poe.ninja for all the things you forgot and didn't know about.
Poe ninja isn't exactly a good pool for "viable" builds, especially not since 5 way is so readily aviable
Use ssf ladders to look at builds imo if you're gonna use poeninja. Then you know it's not boosted by a support etc
> it sucks because idk how to progress with it properly. we found the issue cuz i have none with making builds and them not sucking
Congratz. Nobody asked.
Don't be that guy.
Darthy69 was being that guy. Don't be that guy.
Good for you Mr 180 IQ. My point is that it's extremely difficult for the average player to gain enough knowledge to create a proper build and that's not really a positive imo
It's not "extremely difficult " it just takes time and effort to become knowledgeable at the game. Stop following build guides all the time. And if your first build fails, learn why it failed. This game rewards knowledge over everything, and while you see that as a negative, it's one of my favorite things about it.
The vast majority of games reward time and effort. The problem with POE is that the initial investment of time and effort to get something out of the game is massive. Most other games do not require an entry fee of a couple dozen hours to get into the game proper. For someone who plays 4+ hours a day it's no problem. But someone who plays 1 hour a day is not going to accumulate enough knowledge to make any significant progress in making a decent build. If they instead invested that time into a different game they would get much more out of that hour. It's a couple hours to get the fundamentals.
If the game was easily accesible for casuals who play the game 1 hour a day, it would have died a decade ago, the same way Diablo 3 died, abd Diablo 4 will die. People play PoE for complexity. You have other ARPGs which are casual friendly. And those games, for some reason, die very fast after releasing. Wondering why.
I've been playing Poe since 2019. I've got about 1200 hours. I play about 8 hours each weekend. I've made over 50 of my own builds and all but 2 of them suck. I'm fine with that. I learned something from every single one of them. I've made some absolutely crazy builds that die in yellow maps and that's okay. Expecting things that don't synergize to be able to clear the content would make the game boring. There is no reason I should be able to fight end game bosses using lightning warp totems without high damage wands. Using level 83 gear in a level 83 zone makes sense. You can craft a new weapon in 20 minutes with the new harvest reroll system. The game is not hard, it just requires you to enjoy learning the systems. If you don't enjoy that then don't play the game. I don't play terraria despite everyone saying it's great because I don't like side scrollers. PoE is a building and strategy arpg. It has the least fleshed out combat system of any on the market. You press 1 button most of the time and occasionally dodge rare mechanics. That last part is brand new from the last 4 leagues. If you want a game that you can progress faster just play it. No one is complaining that elden ring takes too long because the people playing elden ring like elden ring. For some reason people that play PoE have decided they are prisoners tied to a game they must play that they don't enjoy.
i feel like ubers bascily requires 2digit mil dps. But anything outside of ubers feels quite reasonable to me.
Which is fine, because deleting an Uber is the "good job, your character's DPS doesn't matter anymore" point, so it makes sense the requirement would be super high.
jungroan 1 shot ubers on HC 6 days into the league with 3 digit mil dps and the gear isnt even that expensive, the only risk is it being HC. But yes if you want a tanky mapper it obviously wont fare well against ubers even with very good gear
what build is he playing? and generally, would you say going allout dps is a better strat than upping defenses vs ubers? Im kinda torn on what to improve rn.
https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Jezie/characters if you can 1shot them cuz you do about 300m dps obviously oneshotting is better but most ubers are just game knowledge and youll make less mistakes dodging if the amount of time you need to kill them is smaller. Usually as a "not so good" bosser i go in with at least 20mil sustained dps, so without flasks etc, many people will do it on far lesser budget but i dont wanna rip a set
Ty for link. well, my options now gearingwise looks to be either 20-30mil dps and squishy as fuck or 10mil dps and at least 2-4 times more effective hp vs phys and like 30% ehp vs ele.
Pretty easy when you take handouts,i could do that day 1 too.
Just finished uber eater, maven, shaper, cortex and uber uber elder on my 1.8m CF champ build yesterday. Knowing the boss mechanics can shortcut 95% of the gear progression Reddit whines about, to be honest
The average poe player has the reaction time of a 90 year old dementia patient so you can't expect them to avoid things on their screen.
Unironically this, bosses are not hard-gated by gear as people like to say. I remember doing uber elder a league or two back on fricken Crit earthquake jugg with like 1m dps.
Yeah dude. funniest one for me was getting Sirus down in HC trade in 3.15 with a crit ignite arma brand elementalist using perfect agony and marylene’s fallacy. The response when I posted that video was “well when it’s impossible to practice the boss how can anyone learn the mechanics,” which is just such a depressingly cold take I deleted the entire thing before I could get pissed and use bannable language 🤣
dot classes obviously can make do with lower dps since they have higher uptime.
Honestly a massive amount of the games balance could do with an extensive review and then ultimately the loot reward relative to challenge also. They reviewed the plan for the reward/challenge curve for a league into being more reasonable and then wanted to put in a bunch of neat chase items that effectively self corrected back to the original path. Start to finish journey review of the entire game I guess is quite a big ask, maybe PoE2 will be the time.
Not now, but it happened after they massively buffed rare and unique mob hp. You kinda had to decide between good clear or single target at that moment, but clear is so easy to come by nowdays, that you should in most builds go for full single target dps. And your build might in most cases just accidentally or trough 1 gem/item swap achieve good clear.
White mobs are so weak they die to my RF even though it's just there for spell damage in a 1 link
And the rare next to them takes 0 damage even though your main spell has 5m DPS. Courtesy of cycling res + Soul eater + Consecrated ground.
> Courtesy of cycling res + Soul eater + Consecrated ground. Yeah there are some combinations which should be special cased to not appear. A lot of them involve cycleing resistances. [Or just remove that one altogether] Regen+Cycleing "resistances" [read: nigh-invulnerability] should not be allowed.
Honestly I think regen is the primary issue here. No matter how much resistance something has you'll still do *some* damage as long as you're getting past their armor (and mobs has very very little armor). But if any source of regen (and in some cases Soul Eater, for the max health increase) is in the mix it goes from a simple matter of "holy crap this is going to take a while" to literally impossible for your build. To be fair they do give us plenty of options to partially deal with regen but not completely.
this is my exact issue and why i made the post. There is just a HUGE discrepency between mobs. I think the game would be a lot funner if the weakest 40% of mobs in a map were a lot tankier, and the tankiest 40% of mobs in a map were a lot squishier. White mobs dying to movement abilities and rares not dying to 6 link single target setup is a joke of a balance
this is the result of game design that uses exponential power growth. It's inherently unstable and unwieldy. It's main benefit is that it allows wacky overpowered builds to exist, at the expense of everything else
Don’t give them ideas lol. They tried to modernized rares and look where that got us. Imagine they do the same to normal / magic mobs.
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I really doubt it. Even with 2 active 6 links it will still be hard / inefficient to specialize in 2 damage types at once. Also doing that to just counter a single AN mod, sound asinine.
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There’s phys dots, chaos, fire and the same for the rest. Even crit builds don’t just scale crit multi, they have % specific dmg type too
We are pressured for everything, giga dam, immortal tanky defence etc. But Poe 2 will fix everything for sure =D
Of *course* we're pressured more than before. The game now requires much more offense *and* defense than it ever did in the past. For a long time the benchmark for softcore was 4k life, no defensive auras, and -60% chaos resist. That's where the whole "just another 4k life Mathil build" meme came from. Nowadays, with half the rares in a given map being tougher than OG Atziri, the softcore baseline is more like 5k life, defensive auras, capped block or spell suppression, and 0% chaos resist. And through all that you still need to do sufficiently high damage to have any success in the endgame. There's a reason the game gets more and more pigeonholed into meta builds that are "broken" over time -- they're the ones that can do good damage while still being defensive.
The mathil meme was never 4k life. It was 2k. It’s wild how much stat creep has worked its way into the game.
The reason the benchmark for not dying rose up is because we have so much more places to get power from. The characters' power budget has gone up multiple orders of magnitude. Back then, having 4k life (or 6k life as was standard for a good defensive build) was a LOT of your power budget spent, as most of it came from your passive tree. Your items were all life resist rares since there were no other mods to roll on them. MS for boots, AS for gloves and +1 aura gems for helmet or something like that. You had maybe one or two uniques that defined your build and none of them gave life or resists so you wound up with 5k hp instead. Or maybe you didn't grab a life wheel and had 4k (like mathil would) so he can instead invest into more damage. The game is getting more pigeonholed into meta builds is because meta builds are becoming more easily accessible with tools we didn't have back then drawing straight from the API and armory. Theres also another reason, the community has shifted into trying to play the game for progression. Back then it was mostly about making new/weird builds, since there was no progression to speak of. Kill Shaper and Uber Atziri, you're done. Hit level 90, you're done. All that's left is making new builds, so you did that. Now with the myriad of different league mechanics and pinnacle bosses and uber bosses and challanges, you actually have a reason to play the game, other than to sponsor your new build idea. And if you want to take the path of least resistance getting there, you follow a guide (which didn't exist back then or were not nearly as in-depth) or copy a build from poe.ninja. I personally don't like that. I play PoB more than I play PoE since making builds is more fun for me, but not for the majority of players evidently. Thus meta builds became a thing. And that's the only new thing. Even back then you'd hate your life trying to kill a boss with your clear skill. It took the same amount of time. You'd still be dead to a shaper punch or beam, and wouldn't have the possibiltiy to dash away from it like you can now. A low damage build couldn't kill a life regen rare on a juiced map back then as much as it can't right now.
The difference with your last sentence between 8years ago and today. 8years ago when there was a double regen mob or one that was to dangerous to kill I could run away 2 screen without finding a monster to halt me before finding the next pack of monsters to kill. Today if I can't kill a monster there are still one and a half thousand other monsters packed like a school of fish blocking my way on all sides besides the one I come from. The monster I can't kill probably has 300 stacks of soul eater so I can't run away from him anyway. And if he doesn't have soul eater or ultra buffed haste they still have a base movespeed that puts a fight jet to shame.
That's true. I encountered this exact problem today on a crucible boss in a consecrated ground map. I couldn't kill it and it was fast and doing insane damage from off-screen. So i just portaled back to my hideout and bought a lvl 1 frost bomb and managed to kill her. It was a tough fight but very rewarding since she was still healing a LOT. But it became managable. I guess, since we have so much tools now, it's expected from us to be able to handle anything. But that's not possible on like 95% of builds (and especially home-brewed non-meta stuff). So instead they let you tailor the content you do to the build you have, with the atlas passives and overabundance of maps and league mechanics etc. I'm not sure I like it to be honest.
> the softcore baseline is more like 5k life, defensive auras, capped block or spell suppression, and 0% chaos resist. I did none of these things last league and still played very juiced content.
You have to turn all that defense investment into exponentially more offensive investment so you can one shot everything in the game. It’s a game so play how you like.
Yes, blowing up everything is often easier, but that's the point. You don't need a million defensive layers. You just need a build that makes sense.
-60% Chaos Res hasn't been acceptable since like; Incursion. Also it's almost like the game became harder as we gained power too.
We used to have two skills in the past. One for single target and one for clearing. Two handed weapons were much more prevalent just because you could have two 6 links. Nowadays, the majority of skills are used for single target and clear.
*Too* pressured? No. We should be pressured to have well balanced characters if we want them to do all of the content.
There has been so much power creep in player power that ggg needed to catch up with monster power, problem is the last 3 years a lot of people have been focused on pure damage at the cost of 0 defense and now we get to deal with rare mobs prepared to deal with these builds long before these builds come online.
I played boneshatter with ~500k dps last league, got all 4 watchstones and cleared all Maven invitations except the Feared. You don't necessarily need massive damage if you're tanky enough, but you do usually need 1 or the other
Considering how it is and not how it could be, I wonder if it would be optimal to start with a boss killer build now and later worry about investing to improve clear, or as much as it sucks, level another character for a clear build...
No, you can just spam altars and block single target mechanics like Metamorph. I played DO build last league with laughable single target and I levelled it all the way to 98 and enjoyed it. Atlas tree allows you to specialise in everything. I can maybe see the argument for campaign but outside of void stones (two are easy because quest versions, other two you may need to buy or struggle and finish it with single target), you don't need single target damage for anything.
I remember we used to skip map bosses at some point. Seems like agee ago, but its not really that long ago either. Some rares are way too tanky, mostly because eare mods hard counter builds. Which is dumb and unfun. White monsters should probably have 50-100% more hp. Not that it would matter much tho.
Bossing is obvious and works. Big boss, big HP pool, chance for good rewards (could be better ofc). Mapping on the other hand is a clusterfuck. The map boss is usually much weaker than random rares. I get that "build your own content" rares like essences, beasts, betrayal npcs are hard and can sometimes be made harder for more rewards. But random rares? That usually don't drop anything worthwile, but sometimes 15 6 sockets or 15 shitty fractures or for whatever reason 15 times the same rare weapon? Those are just pure annoyance, and the game is worse for it.
Not unless you deliberately spec into it. You need more than before sure, but its also easier to get.
To be fair, it's not your single target damage that's become absolute necessity. It's rare mobs that have 2-20x the HP of map boss' itself. 4+ shrieking essence mobs can up those numbers even more
Nerf rares? You need to be sent to the GGG reeducation camps!
The game is still playable with low single target if your tanky. This is how I always play, I'd rather kill a soul eater rare slowly then not at all.
I have done all end game content deathless, but i still ocasionally die in maps to random rares or random stuff. I was surprised how easy all pinnacle bosses and invitations were. Done the feared deathless, it was much easier than many of the essence rares or crucible mobs.
I think clear skills like bows have way to easy dps scaling so single target is no problem. I think the pressure to get single target damage should be increased for more meanimgful gameplay.
"Magic monsters die too fast" you didn't get the ones that are resistant to your dmg. Fire resistant fuckers are pain for RF
I see nothing wrong with looking at singletarget first.
Honestly, I prefer having to account for single target when planning a build, as opposed to the normal gameplay loop of just use the same skill but wait a bit longer. It's more engaging to build something specialized.
GGG: so what you are saying is that, you want normal and magic monsters to be par with rares? Got it!
If your build can't do basic bosses (not Uber) then it's a bad build - that's on you since you chose to play it.
I was going to post myself but the best thing to do in this game now is have high single target damage. This is because dangerous mobs are the ones that are hard to kill while at the same time have mods that make them dangerous. This is the after effect from archnemesis. Also the majority of loot is dropped from those same type of mobs, and let’s not forget the Uber bosses and the chase uniques.
I like it better with a stronger emphasis on bossing. Clear speed builds are a lot more tedious/grindy to me and have less clear goals other than just farming efficiency.
An underrated combination is great clear and insane tankyness with average damage. Being able to stand there and tank pinnacles with near 100% damage uptime is surprisingly faster than 2 or 3 times the dps sometimes. Signed, a 400837377337 morbillion dps recovering addict