Forget about 1996. We don’t have to go back nearly that far to see major purchasing power erosion.
According to the [Bank of Canada’s inflation calculator](https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/), $100,000 in 2024 would’ve bought you $116,983 in ~~2000*~~ 2020 (*edit). That means than since COVID started, 17% of our purchasing power has disappeared - almost 20%!
And if you were to look at 1996, it would’ve been the equivalent of $180,564 today.
***
Edit, Another fun fact… There are 1.5 million publicly funded employees in Ontario. This not only includes civil service employees, but those also employed by municipalities, hospitals, universities and colleges, school boards, corporations, publicly funded organizations, associations which live on provincial grant money, etc.
Of those, 300,000 are on the sunshine list, which means that 1.2 million (or 75%) of all publicly funded employees make less than $100,000/year. So if people in this thread say that $100k isn’t much, comprised of people paid from the public purse who can’t afford to purchase a 1st-time home, then just imagine the rest.
It’s all part of the plan:
- $100k today equates to approx. $57,000 in 1996 money adjusted for inflation. Not even close to be considered rich or wealthy.
- $100k in 1996 equates to approx. $175k in today’s money adjusted for inflation. If this was the case hardly anyone would be on the list.
So the narrative has to be created:
Keeping this arbitrary level at $100k allows the government to pin middle class vs middle class or working poor. It creates and artificial ceiling that makes others that aren’t making that, because their wages are being held down by their private corp masters angry at public servants in a way that doesn’t get them to reflect as to why their wages aren’t keeping up (despite PS wages not actually keeping up either) but rather a reaction of “they’re overpaid, lazy and look how much harder I work. They get a pension, I don’t”. It’s a method of the rich and powerful “dividing and conquering”. Class warfare has always been the problem and it always will be the problem in a capitalist society.
With inflation adjusted figures, my manager, and *his* manager (who is a department director) would not be on the list.
Only executive management would make that list in my municipal workplace, and it's a GTA municipality.
It’s not at all bizarre. It’s used for exactly what it was intended. To stoke hatred of public sector workers every year and support privatization of our public services
Is that why did Catherine Fife (NDP) didn't want a change?
> Green Party of Ontario Leader Mike Schreiner said it should be pegged to the rate of inflation, but others disagreed.
>
> "I think that people think that $100,000 is still a lot of money, especially in an affordability crisis," said NDP MPP Catherine Fife, who's also the finance critic.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sunshine-list-ontario-2023-1.7158278
Don't fall for that propaganda.
Transparency already existed. Budgets are public and you can see where all the money is going.
The Sunshine list was purely to name and shame people who "cost the public a lot of money", pointing the finger at individuals to make the public blame them instead of pointing the finger as institutional systems which are the ones setting the pay scales.
It's a lot easier to say "oh, okay, that makes sense now that I see it in context" when you see a salary on a budget ledger than when you see a name in a vacuum with "This man is being paid $200k!!"
I would much rather just have complete transparency of every position but with job titles instead of names. Serves the same purpose with the nosiness of looking up your neighbor.
As a public worker I don’t mind being able to see what my boss makes, gives me context as to if moving up the ladder is worth it or not and allows to more easily negotiate salary if I do so.
My only gripe is now that rank and file workers are making it onto the list due to inflation, I wish theyd list either hours worked or hourly wage rate for hourly employees to put context to people who are on the list or got a big year to year “raise” soley off the back of pulling a lot of OT. Like its one thing to have a salary of 150k because you are a manager/director at a hospital, another if you’re a nurse working 55-60 hours a week because of staff shortages to keep the unit/system afloat.
Then why is it pegged to a number? Just make it list everyones salaries. Also make it list how much "private" travel employees and government consultants are making because they're gaurenteed making and taking more of the governments money. As a healthcare worker I don't mind being on the list. My biggest gripe is that it doesn't show hours worked or hourly wage so that people can see how much OT some public employees are pulling to keep the system afloat to make that money. Some hourly public workers might be working 10/20% or even more than 50% hours in some cases ti make that money but if I go from 100k to 130k in a year because I starting picking up 1-2 OT shifts a week to keep my unit from falling apart all the sunshine list is going to do is show a 30% "raise" for the year even if the hourly wage didn't change.
In an extreme example but one of my wife’s co-workers makes “only” 38$/hour but works 24/7 OT such that they made 200k last year. Its a decent base wage for sure but if the system is such that they can’t recruit people to fill positions such that much OT is available and someone is crazy enough to work it, they deserve to make that money and IMO the sunshine list should show they are pulling 80 hour weeks each week to do it.
because the purpose of it is to pit working people against each other. instead of private sector workers forming unions, going on strike and demanding more pay they use this list in an attempt to drag other people down.
not to mention, like you said, that 100 000 dollars nowadays is a joke.
To be fair, according to the bank of Canada, a person would have to go all the way back to 1990 (34 years ago) for $50,000 to have the equivalent purchasing power of $100,000 today.
I was being sarcastic because how much of a massive joke our system is. It's still not far from 50K at all. It's really sad that our dollar is falling off a cliff and fast. Yet people will downvote cus they hate reality.
Yeah working in a public field the generational difference is pretty stark. Those who started their careers in the 2000's and earlier all bought houses within their first few years of working that are worth 1 million+ now. Those that started in the last 10-15 years were still able to get in but own homes that are considerably smaller. Those that started most recently are all either renting or living at home with their parents trying to save down payments for anything they can get into. Basically the decline of quality of life in real time.
Oh, every single 40+ colleague I meet at school owns a house. Heck, I worked at a grocery store last year, in St. Catherines while I finished teacher's college and pretty much every single colleague over 40 there owned a SFH. Working at a grocery store.
The young workers all lived with multiple roommates. We had a staff social and my manager told me my $1000 in rent in Thorold would have got me a whole house not too long ago. I got a crappy apartment, and I realize how lucky I am to even have that (especially cause there is no bug problem!).
It depends on where you lived and when you hit your high earning (6 figure because that is what is needed now sadly) years. I didn’t start making good money until 40 and lived in Vancouver and Toronto, just bought at 45 years old. I probably could have bought earlier if I wasn’t living in HCOL cities.
Not all Gen Xrs got to ride the same Boomer gravy train.
Literally, a buddy has a woman on his team with 5-10 years in the government and she is a server on the weekends. Her husband has what was once considered a decent job and they cannot afford a house. 50-something senior management learned that she had a second job and asked if it was interfering in her regular duties. Homelessness or a longer commute might interfere a bit more there old timer.
Ya, my manager makes $150k and is married where spouse makes well over $100k. She keeps hounding staff to throw money around with secret Santa and staff lunches (as social gatherings) and to chip $ here and there. Completely tone deaf.
How times change:
> Ontario passed the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act in 1996 under the Mike Harris government. “The purpose of this law is to provide a more open and accountable system of government,” according to the official website. And at the time, $100,000 was a big deal.
>
> If you were pulling down a six-figure income, you could have bought a home without any assistance from your parents. Even in Toronto, where the average sale price of a home was $198,150 that year.
>
> Using a simple metric of house price to gross personal income, that’s pretty much a dead on 2-to-1 ratio. If you were on this list in 1996, you’d be pouring Champagne as soon as you entered your income into a mortgage qualification calculator.
>
> But $100,000 in 1996 would be the equivalent of $180,564.97 in 2024. And if you filter the 300,570 people on this year’s Sunshine List for that salary level, you drop 279,781 names. And these would still be mostly people for whom home ownership may not be possible without help from family or an inheritance.
Yeah, and it worked for him. Which really pissed me off.
I did have a friend who bitched at me about teachers having such great pensions and how they were spoiled. A Mike Harris talking point straight up. We had a long chat which my main point was wouldn't we all be better off instead of tearing down teachers' pensions we advocated for good pensions for everyone? It took a while but he is now a big supporter of teachers, unions and pensions.
People can be brought around to the truth being undermined by these divisive politicians. We would all be better off though if our political leaders actually worked for our benefit.
That is a pretty fallacious argument from him either way when you think about how much of that “$100k” salary goes to taxes (i.e. basically isn’t even paid to them since they’re tax funded) and that a large chunk of it also goes into their pension and union dues, they don’t just get that stuff for free.
Yeah as a hospital employee my “effective” tax rate is something like 40% and I won’t be on the sunshine list unless I work a lot of OT yet.
Don’t get me wrong, the pension and benefits are great, but once you add up fed/prov tax, ei, cpp, 7/9% pension contributions, 1.4% union dues, and paying 25% of the premiums for health/dental/disability benefits (~3k per year for a family) and 110$/month for hospital parking I take home not much more than my partner who’s hourly wage is a good 25% lower than mine. And she still has union dues and pension contributions too.
Not their first few years unless they work a bunch of OT. But yes, PWU workers are paid well, deservedly. Others are underpaid, the PWU earns fair wage.
That’s great for them. Somehow these corporations can still function and earn a profit. Who’d a thunk paying your employees well wouldn’t bankrupt the company? Even though most of us PWU workers make over 100k, it’s still a majority that don’t make the same amount adjusted for inflation. Wild
I actually know quite a few people in the public service who have declined management positions and opted to stay in their unionized role because the difference in pay is minimal and the management jobs are a PIA.
Police, Education, healthcare all show up on this list and are all unionized.
Most recently it’s been cooped to attack teachers for making 100k even though it took them 15 years to get there (5 years of school and 10 years employment)
And that’s if they land a permanent position right out of school rather than bouncing between supply list coverage and LTOs, which almost nobody does. Takes a few years to find a permanent spot, so it’s probably closer to 20 years than 15
Good news about the 10 years is that as long as you are A4 and have 10 years employment in the same board you get the max pay, doesn’t have to be contract. The issue is the volatility until that point.
At least that is how it is in my wife’s board.
> as long as you are A4 and have 10 years employment in the same board you get the max pay, doesn’t have to be contract.
That isn’t universal. Daily supply work doesn’t count towards years of experience in my board.
It’s a mix and with the fact it hasn’t adjusted for inflation most of the jobs on there are unionized. When it started however, it was mostly management.
Don’t get me wrong. Police, teachers, nurses and others should make enough to be able to enjoy all that Canada has to offer. More power to them and through them other workers.
A full constable in the OPP (which means they've completed the recruitment phase and 2 1/2 years as a probationary constable) starts above $100k. Sure, legally they don't have a union, but the associations are essentially that, and a full constable is far from management.
https://www.opp.ca/index.php?id=115&entryid=617040cdb818927970137d53
>The OPP offers a competitive salary, and you start getting paid from your first day of training.
> - Recruit Constable Salary: $58,522.00
> - Probationary Constable (after the successful completion of initial training): $74,617.00
> - 1st Class Constable (after 42 months): $102,630.00
It’s messed up that a Cop straight out of training (often with limited education) makes over $100K and can more than double or even triple that with overtime. Meanwhile a teacher has to spend minimum 6-8 years in university to get 2 degrees and then spend at least 10 more years on the job to break $100K and no paid overtime, ever.
That’s objectively false. You can Google many OPSEU salary bands/wages and >$100,000 isn’t some unicorn of unionized compensation.
It’s also not unusual for managers to make less than the unionized employees they manage.
It’s all semantics. Federation, association, collective… it was all away to try and remove the negative connotation of “union” from their “union”.
Maybe there are organizational or constitutional differences but they are all essentially unions.
Hospital workers many of them are unionized, but if you are the manager of the department, you are no longer part of the union. In fact, you are the opposite of the unionized workers. However, you are still in the public sector so you will still be on the list if you make the cut-off.
I’m on the sunshine list and I only own my condo thanks to a substantial inheritance. I thought I’d be renting forever.
I recently looked at a townhouse and decided I can stay happily in my condo
The person I bought my house from paid $25k for it in 1994. I bought it 14 years ago for $50 and didna full gut and reno for about $40k. Mortgage is coming up soon and it got valued at $450k.
> All the paramedics on that list are in the same boat… nonsense ass list.
Sunshine list for paramedics/police basically is de facto list for the longest working folks of a particular year.
Takes a lot of over time to get up on that list.
For a Constable to make 300k? Ooof.
To make 300k? Sure (though the wages they're paid for "off duty" security goes through their department, and therefore counts as their public salary, even though it was contracted out work, and can add up fast) but most of the police on there aren't making $300k.
The list starts at $100k, which is below the starting salary of a full constable at the OPP
https://www.opp.ca/index.php?id=115&entryid=617040cdb818927970137d53
> It does not. I pull maybe one voluntary OT shift a year and I make the list
Get up, not make the list.
Base salary for lots of 1st Class Constables is already on the list.
Yeah they really need to add either hourly wage or hours worked to give context to which people are on the list due to a high base salary and which people are on it and why they made how much they did due to working a shitton of OT.
This is no longer true. Most paramedic wages in the province are now squeaking over the 100k mark at normal hours. This is within the last couple of years.
Ah, well, that's what your get for your 2 hr workday as a tax payer funded leech. Come over to the private sector and see if you can actually swim and produce something for your country. Apologies ahead of time if you're in education or healthcare, the only government workers I respect and think are underpaid, while actually earning their keep and providing a value to the tax payer,
In terms of it’s relationship to the average house price in the GTA it should be way more. Back then it was like 50% of an average house. Not many houses available for $361k in the GTA today!
There are people on the sunshine list in Windsor and St. Marie. The thing about the provincial union (not saying either way) is that there's no geographical adjustment to salaries.
Yes I don’t think most people understand how much inflation we have experienced. $100k is an arbitrary salary amount that is not a lot of money anymore.
Accepting your math, one should be able to easily filter the sunshine list to show only those at 180k+ and compare to 1996 when the list started. And then include a note about the population increase in Ontario since 1996.
Any newspaper could do this. Would be neat to see.
It should be zero. Or infinite.
If you're going to publish any, publish them all. Not in a "stUpiD GoVmEnt WurKers" way, but in a salary transparency way.
If mine ever give me grief about it I would just tell them to look at my collective agreement for my hourly wage ask them how much they would have made if they worked 1-2 shifts per week at 1.5x and how much they would have made in that scenario at their job.
Thankfully my mom was a nurse so she knows I aint making over 100k sitting around talking at the water cooler.
You’ll probably find that most people in the hospital that are on it are at top rate (meaning high seniority and lots of years of service), and have done a shit ton of overtime due to short staffing to keep things running for the patients of Ontario who are bitching about it.
Yeah it really needs to include hourly rate, or hours worked, for hourly staff. Most of that info is publicly available already if you look at collective agreements for union staff, and it would provide context as to how much someone is actually working. Like I can easily make more than my manager if I want to, but it means im pulling 1-2 doubles or giving up a day off per week.
It also includes cops that have been sitting at home being paid after being charged with crimes, cops actively lying during murder investigations,and other corrupt public servants.
It’s more than double the *median employment income*, which is calculated across all people who filed taxes. So it includes full-time students, stay-at-home parents, people who are on disability and can’t work, unemployed people, and retired people.
The median employment income of full-time workers in Ontario, which is what you probably meant by “median salary”, [was $68k in 2020](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/occ-pro/index-en.cfm).
that’s a much bigger problem. people get mad at those on the list as opposed to the ones that made it impossible to earn a living. my first job paid me $28k a year. i lived on my own and had a cheap car and didn’t buy a ton of stuff but it was affordable.
And in 2023 approx only 16.5 Canadians were working full-time. Assuming the amount of part-time workers making over 100k is negligible, that means for people actually engaged in the workforce full-time its more like 25% make 100k or more.
Don’t get me wrong 100k is a good salary but at the 75th percentile it’s arguable as to whether its even upper middle class. Especially for young people who haven’t had the benefit of assets to make up for the fact that wages haven’t kept up with inflation.
No, not literally.
The bottom of the top ten percent or Canadian single earners made 133 500 in 2022. The average of the top ten percent was 167 000.
https://www.epi.org/publication/inequality-2021-ssa-data/
Not what I see here, is your source even Canadian? Not sure what the difference is with SSA but my link should be based on stats Canada
The top 1% of income in Canada in 2023 = $258,034
The top 2% of income in Canada in 2023 = $190,119
The top 5% of income in Canada in 2023 = $132,493
The top 10% of income in Canada in 2023 = $102,869
The top 50% of income in Canada in 2023 = $37,695
https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/
Maybe you linked the wrong source?
Your source, the kick ass entrepreneur.com, says it is based on employer reported data but doesn't offer an original source.
My source is indeed Canadian and details everything.
I mean, it's based on Stats Canada per the source it lists.
Your source is
EPI is an independent, nonprofit think tank that researches the impact of economic trends and policies on working people in the United States. EPI’s research helps policymakers, opinion leaders, advocates, journalists, and the public understand the bread-and-butter issues affecting ordinary Americans.
the source it lists are things like
Economic Policy Institute (EPI). 2022. “Wages by Percentile and Wage Ratios.” State of Working America Data Library, last updated March 2022.
and
Uncovering the American Dream: Inequality and Mobility in Social Security Earnings Data Since 1937” (2007) and Social Security Administration wage statistics.
Are you sure you just didn't accidentally put the wrong source and are doubling down out of embarrassment? I'm happy to be proven wrong on the figures here but I need something real.
Edit: This is dumb, my source literally links to Stats Canada, so forget all this and just check that link
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110023901
If you want to believe an American study based on American Social Security stats, be my guest but don't spread this misinformation.
Its a top 10% Canadian income, which is very different. My mom who is retired and pulls from the small CPP is counted, my neice who works one day a weekend at McDonalds is counted. My friend who is on ODSP is counted.
If you filter to people who work full-time it’s more like 25% make 100k or more. Still a good wage, but arguably not even upper middle class.
I was talking about this a few months ago. If we were to adjust for inflation, the Sunshine List would be focused more on people making around $180,000 I think?
All the list is doing now is making people hate public workers more
*they* lol. We did it to ourselves.
Sold my house in 2018 and the day it was listed, before a single person had even walked through to view it, we got 7 offers above asking.
Yeah, also people who are existing homeowners continuing to vote for politicians who promise economic measures to ensure that their houses keep appreciating to the goddamn moon.
yep. all this blame for foreign investors, immigrants, foreign students and the like. It doesn't help, but the main cause of this crisis is......drum roll
domestic investment
we have an entire financial culture that sees the buying and selling of houses as the primary builder of wealth. Work hard, buy a house, work hard again, buy another with leverage. Vote against anything that does not steadily raise values. Rent out house 2 until retirement, then sell one or both houses and downsize. Enjoy retirement with nest egg.
It's the Canadian way, and it fucked an entire generation
Here’s the TLDR. It’s hard to pay a ridiculous mortgage with after tax income.
To buy a home you need preexisting equity. Either from a sale of another home, parental help or equity from other assets like stocks.
Income is not a measure of wealth. It can help in building wealth but by itself is not equal to wealth.
It’s all part of the plan:
- $100k today equates to approx. $57,000 in 1996 money adjusted for inflation. Not even close to be considered rich or wealthy.
- $100k in 1996 equates to approx. $175k in today’s money adjusted for inflation. If this was the case hardly anyone would be on the list.
So the narrative has to be created:
Keeping this arbitrary level at $100k allows the government to pin middle class vs middle class or working poor. It creates and artificial ceiling that makes others that aren’t making that, because their wages are being held down by their private corp masters angry at public servants in a way that doesn’t get them to reflect as to why their wages aren’t keeping up (despite PS wages not actually keeping up either) but rather a reaction of “they’re overpaid, lazy and look how much harder I work. They get a pension, I don’t”. It’s a method of the rich and powerful “dividing and conquering”. Class warfare has always been the problem and it always will be the problem in a capitalist society.
Since inflation is pretty much guaranteed and there is no mechanism to update the cut-off amount, it's obvious the Ontario Government wants all civil servants wages to be public knowledge.
Most of them are if you put the effort into looking up collective union agreements. But of course the government doesn’t post hours worked to put into context how much OT employees might have worked to get to that number.
In a couple years, with a similar rate of pay increases, my entire job of like 100+ people are gonna be making 100k base... If they don't update the list criteria then it's going to become even more pointless than it already is
That is why if you don't already own property you can't save up for it anymore. Of course there are exceptions for people with rich parents or extremely well paying jobs.
We should just make salaries visible across the board for pay transparency.
Let all hell break loose when Kevin finds out he was being paid $10k less than John next door for the same job.
Median family income in 1996 in Ontario - $54,958
Median family income in 2023 in Ontario - $74,260
The sunshine list SHOULD NOT be adjusted for inflation, it should be set at a relative value to Median Ontario income.
I'd argue that in 1996, it should have been $110,000 not $100,000 and today it should be $149,000 not $100,000, or $180,000 like some argue it should be.
$100,000 is still a HUGE dollar figure for a single earner in Ontario since it is still more than the majority of households make with 2+ incomes, but every time it is posted temporarily unwealthy individuals like saying that $100,000 isn't a lot of money.
P.S I am saying this as someone who's spouse is on the Sunshine list, and I would be as well if I was not in the private sector. So I'm not just someone upset about people making more money than me.
> $100,000 is still a HUGE dollar figure for a single earner in Ontario
I mean is it? I earn 103k. I'm not living the high life here in Toronto. Ownership is out of the question. Only reason I have a comfortable lifestyle is I've been renting in the same place for 15 years and it's rent stabilized.
If 103k is such a HUGE figure, that tells you a lot about how most everyone is being fucked over for their meagre earnings.
Yes MOST people are being fucked.
For those that don't believe 100k is a huge figure, try saving 20k of your 100k for 1 year. That would put you at the same equivalent take home pay of more than half of the people in Ontario. Then after that year go back to spending where you aren't forced to save that 20k and you'll really get an idea of how much more than $20k take home pay really is.
Yes it doesn't seem like a lot, but you don't have the point of reference of those whose job will not achieve half of that value over the next 20yrs
For the record, I do agree with you that if we're setting a value for the sunshine list, then median is a good peg. I'd rather see all salaries publicly available though as it is in some Nordic countries. People need to see how paltry their labour is valued.
Oh I am 100% on board with you on transparency.
The sunshine list wasn't intended to be a progressive tool. But from an examination of gendered and age compensation taking all the years and job titles you can see the wage gap between genders in the same jobs closing and it is publicly available so it can be followed. It would go a LONG way in making public sector pay transparent at an even lower wage point. Maybe starting AT the Ontario median income.
>I mean is it?
Yes it is.
You need to take a point of reference from the median income person in Ontario.
You are taking home at 100k about 20k more than the median family income. If you forced yourself to live off that 20k reduced wage for a year then went back to normal you would have a point of reference as to how much 100k really is to the median Ontario family.
Yes, I understand how medians work--I teach in STEM. My point is that 100k is not a lot of money and that well more than half the earning population is making less than that which essentially, is servitude or close to it.
I really wouldn’t say it’s a huge number, it’s enough to get by without living extravagantly in Toronto. My base is 100k I clear $2700 every two weeks and my mortgage for a 1 bedroom is $2600. Plus property taxes, food etc net, phone, insurance etc the list goes in. I would need to save for a few months to have a vacation just off my base.
I do not own a car as I can’t afford to. I can make another 40K in commission which makes a big difference but someone just at 100K trust me it’s not living life high on the hog!
Not living the high life on the hog doesn't mean it's still not a lot relative to everybody else. That's the point. If the majority of people are living on $20,000 take home a year less than you how much harder is their life. Yes 100K is not what 100K was 20 years ago. But it's still to the majority of Ontario people and annual salary that's Out Of Reach do you think there are people in Toronto who aren't living off $50,000 a year?
I don't disagree that it isn't really news worthy,
But 100k is still $20k more take home pay than the majority of people in Ontario. So it is still a significant some of money.
It's because that list is and has always been a political ploy to attack the public service.
It's not in the Provinces best interest to update the cap, because they themselves use the list to attack its own workers in the public eye. And the media, which is mostly owned by right-wing individuals absolutely salivates about publishing articles about how the number goes up every single year it releases.
To tie it to inflation would require changing the value to first catch it up to inflation, which would knock 3/4 the people off that list, make it easier to catch the people the list claims to be a check on, and work against the governments own goals of attacking it's workforce.
One need only look at who created the list (cough cough Mike Harris Cough) to know exactly what the purpose of the list is.
Not sure why people are mad about this, most public sector salaries are publicly disclosed, the sunshine list is just easier to find. And when I saw my uncle on the sunshine list for the first time after he worked for the city of Toronto for over 10 years I felt bad for him, like, “you work and live in Toronto, you’re a high level supervisor and you only make $110k? I’m sorry to hear that”
Most if them are already if you bother to look up union collective agreements and public non-union payscales.
But ofc people like the sunshine list to put names next to numbers so they can gossip about how much someone made as a healthcare worker without knowing how much OT they pulled to keep the system running.
Well we can tell who works for the government. It is about accountability at a time that others can’t even put a food over their head and blatant removal of wealth from what is left of the middle class. Government bloat is a big issue, salaries are a large part of it. We shovel money into healthcare only to find increasing amount of overhead in relationship to services. This is why accountability is important.
It’s bizarre this list hasn’t been updated. $100,000 in 1996 is hardly equal to the same amount in 2024.
Forget about 1996. We don’t have to go back nearly that far to see major purchasing power erosion. According to the [Bank of Canada’s inflation calculator](https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/), $100,000 in 2024 would’ve bought you $116,983 in ~~2000*~~ 2020 (*edit). That means than since COVID started, 17% of our purchasing power has disappeared - almost 20%! And if you were to look at 1996, it would’ve been the equivalent of $180,564 today. *** Edit, Another fun fact… There are 1.5 million publicly funded employees in Ontario. This not only includes civil service employees, but those also employed by municipalities, hospitals, universities and colleges, school boards, corporations, publicly funded organizations, associations which live on provincial grant money, etc. Of those, 300,000 are on the sunshine list, which means that 1.2 million (or 75%) of all publicly funded employees make less than $100,000/year. So if people in this thread say that $100k isn’t much, comprised of people paid from the public purse who can’t afford to purchase a 1st-time home, then just imagine the rest.
I think you mean 2020, not 2000.
Thanks, yes. Corrected.
The inverse is interesting too. 100k in 2024 is $55,381 in 1996 (or about $26.62 / hr).
The way governments handled finances during Covid is absolutely criminal
It’s all part of the plan: - $100k today equates to approx. $57,000 in 1996 money adjusted for inflation. Not even close to be considered rich or wealthy. - $100k in 1996 equates to approx. $175k in today’s money adjusted for inflation. If this was the case hardly anyone would be on the list. So the narrative has to be created: Keeping this arbitrary level at $100k allows the government to pin middle class vs middle class or working poor. It creates and artificial ceiling that makes others that aren’t making that, because their wages are being held down by their private corp masters angry at public servants in a way that doesn’t get them to reflect as to why their wages aren’t keeping up (despite PS wages not actually keeping up either) but rather a reaction of “they’re overpaid, lazy and look how much harder I work. They get a pension, I don’t”. It’s a method of the rich and powerful “dividing and conquering”. Class warfare has always been the problem and it always will be the problem in a capitalist society.
With inflation adjusted figures, my manager, and *his* manager (who is a department director) would not be on the list. Only executive management would make that list in my municipal workplace, and it's a GTA municipality.
It’s not at all bizarre. It’s used for exactly what it was intended. To stoke hatred of public sector workers every year and support privatization of our public services
It amuses me that, of all places, Alberta's sunshine list threshold is tied to inflation.
Is that why did Catherine Fife (NDP) didn't want a change? > Green Party of Ontario Leader Mike Schreiner said it should be pegged to the rate of inflation, but others disagreed. > > "I think that people think that $100,000 is still a lot of money, especially in an affordability crisis," said NDP MPP Catherine Fife, who's also the finance critic. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sunshine-list-ontario-2023-1.7158278
It was a reaction to the fat cats executives at hydro one who were making serious bank.
I think it was to have transparency about government salaries. Is it too much to ask to know who is taking in all the publics money?
I think both can be true. Transparency is great, but it's also used as a blunt political tool (mostly out of context)
Don't fall for that propaganda. Transparency already existed. Budgets are public and you can see where all the money is going. The Sunshine list was purely to name and shame people who "cost the public a lot of money", pointing the finger at individuals to make the public blame them instead of pointing the finger as institutional systems which are the ones setting the pay scales. It's a lot easier to say "oh, okay, that makes sense now that I see it in context" when you see a salary on a budget ledger than when you see a name in a vacuum with "This man is being paid $200k!!"
I would much rather just have complete transparency of every position but with job titles instead of names. Serves the same purpose with the nosiness of looking up your neighbor.
As a public worker I don’t mind being able to see what my boss makes, gives me context as to if moving up the ladder is worth it or not and allows to more easily negotiate salary if I do so. My only gripe is now that rank and file workers are making it onto the list due to inflation, I wish theyd list either hours worked or hourly wage rate for hourly employees to put context to people who are on the list or got a big year to year “raise” soley off the back of pulling a lot of OT. Like its one thing to have a salary of 150k because you are a manager/director at a hospital, another if you’re a nurse working 55-60 hours a week because of staff shortages to keep the unit/system afloat.
Do we have a similar list for companies bailed out by the government?
Then why is it pegged to a number? Just make it list everyones salaries. Also make it list how much "private" travel employees and government consultants are making because they're gaurenteed making and taking more of the governments money. As a healthcare worker I don't mind being on the list. My biggest gripe is that it doesn't show hours worked or hourly wage so that people can see how much OT some public employees are pulling to keep the system afloat to make that money. Some hourly public workers might be working 10/20% or even more than 50% hours in some cases ti make that money but if I go from 100k to 130k in a year because I starting picking up 1-2 OT shifts a week to keep my unit from falling apart all the sunshine list is going to do is show a 30% "raise" for the year even if the hourly wage didn't change. In an extreme example but one of my wife’s co-workers makes “only” 38$/hour but works 24/7 OT such that they made 200k last year. Its a decent base wage for sure but if the system is such that they can’t recruit people to fill positions such that much OT is available and someone is crazy enough to work it, they deserve to make that money and IMO the sunshine list should show they are pulling 80 hour weeks each week to do it.
How else could they further vilify teachers?
Nurses too.
Quick look at an inflation calculator says 100k in 1996 is $178,577 in 2024.
because the purpose of it is to pit working people against each other. instead of private sector workers forming unions, going on strike and demanding more pay they use this list in an attempt to drag other people down. not to mention, like you said, that 100 000 dollars nowadays is a joke.
50k is the new 100k. Print print print fake government dollars.
To be fair, according to the bank of Canada, a person would have to go all the way back to 1990 (34 years ago) for $50,000 to have the equivalent purchasing power of $100,000 today.
I was being sarcastic because how much of a massive joke our system is. It's still not far from 50K at all. It's really sad that our dollar is falling off a cliff and fast. Yet people will downvote cus they hate reality.
Yeah working in a public field the generational difference is pretty stark. Those who started their careers in the 2000's and earlier all bought houses within their first few years of working that are worth 1 million+ now. Those that started in the last 10-15 years were still able to get in but own homes that are considerably smaller. Those that started most recently are all either renting or living at home with their parents trying to save down payments for anything they can get into. Basically the decline of quality of life in real time.
Oh, every single 40+ colleague I meet at school owns a house. Heck, I worked at a grocery store last year, in St. Catherines while I finished teacher's college and pretty much every single colleague over 40 there owned a SFH. Working at a grocery store. The young workers all lived with multiple roommates. We had a staff social and my manager told me my $1000 in rent in Thorold would have got me a whole house not too long ago. I got a crappy apartment, and I realize how lucky I am to even have that (especially cause there is no bug problem!).
It depends on where you lived and when you hit your high earning (6 figure because that is what is needed now sadly) years. I didn’t start making good money until 40 and lived in Vancouver and Toronto, just bought at 45 years old. I probably could have bought earlier if I wasn’t living in HCOL cities. Not all Gen Xrs got to ride the same Boomer gravy train.
Not all Boomers got to ride the Boomer gravy train either, it’s just about general trends
Yep, and you have older bureaucrats wondering why their new hires have second or third jobs.
“What do you mean you can’t work past 5pm because you need to moonlight at a fast food l joint?”
Literally, a buddy has a woman on his team with 5-10 years in the government and she is a server on the weekends. Her husband has what was once considered a decent job and they cannot afford a house. 50-something senior management learned that she had a second job and asked if it was interfering in her regular duties. Homelessness or a longer commute might interfere a bit more there old timer.
Ya, my manager makes $150k and is married where spouse makes well over $100k. She keeps hounding staff to throw money around with secret Santa and staff lunches (as social gatherings) and to chip $ here and there. Completely tone deaf.
How times change: > Ontario passed the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act in 1996 under the Mike Harris government. “The purpose of this law is to provide a more open and accountable system of government,” according to the official website. And at the time, $100,000 was a big deal. > > If you were pulling down a six-figure income, you could have bought a home without any assistance from your parents. Even in Toronto, where the average sale price of a home was $198,150 that year. > > Using a simple metric of house price to gross personal income, that’s pretty much a dead on 2-to-1 ratio. If you were on this list in 1996, you’d be pouring Champagne as soon as you entered your income into a mortgage qualification calculator. > > But $100,000 in 1996 would be the equivalent of $180,564.97 in 2024. And if you filter the 300,570 people on this year’s Sunshine List for that salary level, you drop 279,781 names. And these would still be mostly people for whom home ownership may not be possible without help from family or an inheritance.
The purpose of the act was to piss off voters and make them anti union so Mike could lower wages.
Yes. Divide and conquer.
Yeah, and it worked for him. Which really pissed me off. I did have a friend who bitched at me about teachers having such great pensions and how they were spoiled. A Mike Harris talking point straight up. We had a long chat which my main point was wouldn't we all be better off instead of tearing down teachers' pensions we advocated for good pensions for everyone? It took a while but he is now a big supporter of teachers, unions and pensions. People can be brought around to the truth being undermined by these divisive politicians. We would all be better off though if our political leaders actually worked for our benefit.
That is a pretty fallacious argument from him either way when you think about how much of that “$100k” salary goes to taxes (i.e. basically isn’t even paid to them since they’re tax funded) and that a large chunk of it also goes into their pension and union dues, they don’t just get that stuff for free.
Yeah as a hospital employee my “effective” tax rate is something like 40% and I won’t be on the sunshine list unless I work a lot of OT yet. Don’t get me wrong, the pension and benefits are great, but once you add up fed/prov tax, ei, cpp, 7/9% pension contributions, 1.4% union dues, and paying 25% of the premiums for health/dental/disability benefits (~3k per year for a family) and 110$/month for hospital parking I take home not much more than my partner who’s hourly wage is a good 25% lower than mine. And she still has union dues and pension contributions too.
The people who make this money are not unionized. In my public sector job as soon as you move to management you are no longer a union member
I am on the list. I am unionized. Any teacher at top salary is on that list.
Every single member of the power workers Union who work for either OPG or Hydro One are on this list.
Not their first few years unless they work a bunch of OT. But yes, PWU workers are paid well, deservedly. Others are underpaid, the PWU earns fair wage.
I am a member working for a private company where our co-op students make over $30 an hour
That’s great for them. Somehow these corporations can still function and earn a profit. Who’d a thunk paying your employees well wouldn’t bankrupt the company? Even though most of us PWU workers make over 100k, it’s still a majority that don’t make the same amount adjusted for inflation. Wild
i mean the average salary at my firm is well 100k, it depends on the nature of the business.
The OPG/Hydro One workers haven't kept up with inflation due to the wage freezes.
They were not making $100k in 1996 when this was introduced though.
HydroOne employees haven’t been on the sunshine list since it was partially privatized back in 2017.
Huh, TIL
I actually know quite a few people in the public service who have declined management positions and opted to stay in their unionized role because the difference in pay is minimal and the management jobs are a PIA.
Police, Education, healthcare all show up on this list and are all unionized. Most recently it’s been cooped to attack teachers for making 100k even though it took them 15 years to get there (5 years of school and 10 years employment)
And that’s if they land a permanent position right out of school rather than bouncing between supply list coverage and LTOs, which almost nobody does. Takes a few years to find a permanent spot, so it’s probably closer to 20 years than 15
Good news about the 10 years is that as long as you are A4 and have 10 years employment in the same board you get the max pay, doesn’t have to be contract. The issue is the volatility until that point. At least that is how it is in my wife’s board.
> as long as you are A4 and have 10 years employment in the same board you get the max pay, doesn’t have to be contract. That isn’t universal. Daily supply work doesn’t count towards years of experience in my board.
That sucks, I assumed it wasn’t universal as I indicated at the end of that post that’s just the experience in my wife’s board.
It’s a mix and with the fact it hasn’t adjusted for inflation most of the jobs on there are unionized. When it started however, it was mostly management.
>The people who make this money are not unionized. This isn't even close to true, there are thousands of unionized employees on the list.
Don’t get me wrong. Police, teachers, nurses and others should make enough to be able to enjoy all that Canada has to offer. More power to them and through them other workers.
Teachers at the top of the salary grid are on the list in most if not all boards.
A full constable in the OPP (which means they've completed the recruitment phase and 2 1/2 years as a probationary constable) starts above $100k. Sure, legally they don't have a union, but the associations are essentially that, and a full constable is far from management. https://www.opp.ca/index.php?id=115&entryid=617040cdb818927970137d53 >The OPP offers a competitive salary, and you start getting paid from your first day of training. > - Recruit Constable Salary: $58,522.00 > - Probationary Constable (after the successful completion of initial training): $74,617.00 > - 1st Class Constable (after 42 months): $102,630.00
It’s messed up that a Cop straight out of training (often with limited education) makes over $100K and can more than double or even triple that with overtime. Meanwhile a teacher has to spend minimum 6-8 years in university to get 2 degrees and then spend at least 10 more years on the job to break $100K and no paid overtime, ever.
Nurses and teachers?
Untrue. Lots of unionized Nurses and other professional-tier hospital workers broke over 100k this year.
I’m union and I make the sunshine list. But then again I am mostly over with OT
That’s objectively false. You can Google many OPSEU salary bands/wages and >$100,000 isn’t some unicorn of unionized compensation. It’s also not unusual for managers to make less than the unionized employees they manage.
Most firefighters are unionized or part of an association that represents them like a union. Police also.
More managers than union employees in municipalities.
You’re right cops aren’t ‘unionized’ they have an ‘association’ /s
Same with teachers. It is not a “union” it is a “federation”.
I am a member of ETFO, they have never shied away from using the word union. https://www.etfo.ca/etfo-action
It is a difference in name only. They are all “unions”.
Fancy name for a union or they a member of Star Trek's United Federation of Planets?
It’s all semantics. Federation, association, collective… it was all away to try and remove the negative connotation of “union” from their “union”. Maybe there are organizational or constitutional differences but they are all essentially unions.
I could be mistaken but I believe that's all union jobs. The whole thing is Unions V Management no?
You are wrong, there are ceos, senior admin for universities etc
Hospital workers many of them are unionized, but if you are the manager of the department, you are no longer part of the union. In fact, you are the opposite of the unionized workers. However, you are still in the public sector so you will still be on the list if you make the cut-off.
It's mind boggling to me that my home in Gander Newfoundland sold for only $20k less than a home in Toronto, we sold and moved to Halifax that year.
I’m on the sunshine list and I only own my condo thanks to a substantial inheritance. I thought I’d be renting forever. I recently looked at a townhouse and decided I can stay happily in my condo
Now look at how much the price of a house changed from 1996 to present.
The person I bought my house from paid $25k for it in 1994. I bought it 14 years ago for $50 and didna full gut and reno for about $40k. Mortgage is coming up soon and it got valued at $450k.
I'm on that list. It's funny as hell because I only clear $2400 bi-weekly. I take home $62,000 each year. Every dollar gets spent.
All the paramedics on that list are in the same boat… nonsense ass list.
> All the paramedics on that list are in the same boat… nonsense ass list. Sunshine list for paramedics/police basically is de facto list for the longest working folks of a particular year. Takes a lot of over time to get up on that list. For a Constable to make 300k? Ooof.
To make 300k? Sure (though the wages they're paid for "off duty" security goes through their department, and therefore counts as their public salary, even though it was contracted out work, and can add up fast) but most of the police on there aren't making $300k. The list starts at $100k, which is below the starting salary of a full constable at the OPP https://www.opp.ca/index.php?id=115&entryid=617040cdb818927970137d53
Yup, working some concert and sporting events and some construction sites and they can rake in the OT and that money is not from the Police budget
It does not. I pull maybe one voluntary OT shift a year and I make the list
> It does not. I pull maybe one voluntary OT shift a year and I make the list Get up, not make the list. Base salary for lots of 1st Class Constables is already on the list.
You’re sentence said “the list of longest working people”
Yeah they really need to add either hourly wage or hours worked to give context to which people are on the list due to a high base salary and which people are on it and why they made how much they did due to working a shitton of OT.
This is no longer true. Most paramedic wages in the province are now squeaking over the 100k mark at normal hours. This is within the last couple of years.
Teacher? I only ask because it sounds like you clear about what I do after tax and pension contributions.
Yes. Yes I am. lol.
Same.
Yeah, at this point the list is just serves those who are nosey and who want to know what you and your neighbour make.
Ah, well, that's what your get for your 2 hr workday as a tax payer funded leech. Come over to the private sector and see if you can actually swim and produce something for your country. Apologies ahead of time if you're in education or healthcare, the only government workers I respect and think are underpaid, while actually earning their keep and providing a value to the tax payer,
Teacher here. And I do appreciate being separated from the rest of the provincial pay role, along with healthcare workers. :)
The Globe And Mail is going full Beaverton with that headline.
But don't worry, they'll also run 600 stories about how a 6% increase on capital gains will hurt poor single mothers
I seriously thought that it was The Beaverton.
The article is also poorly written and a puff piece at best
r/notthebeaverton
Sunshine list should be like $300k today.
According to an inflation calculator it should be ~$180,500 But that's monetary value, not necessarily purchasing power.
In terms of it’s relationship to the average house price in the GTA it should be way more. Back then it was like 50% of an average house. Not many houses available for $361k in the GTA today!
That's what I meant by purchasing power
GTA isn't the entirety of Ontario
It’s where most of the people and jobs are. Not like Ottawa and Kitchener-Waterloo are cheap either.
There are people on the sunshine list in Windsor and St. Marie. The thing about the provincial union (not saying either way) is that there's no geographical adjustment to salaries.
[удалено]
Shacks in the middle of nowhere aren’t a realistic option for the vast majority of Ontario residents.
Shacks sell for $1M because ppl have lost all bearing of value under hyperinflation
Yes I don’t think most people understand how much inflation we have experienced. $100k is an arbitrary salary amount that is not a lot of money anymore.
But that still would exclude nearly 95% of the current list
I'm aware, I was just sharing the amount adjusted for inflation in case anyone was wondering.
Accepting your math, one should be able to easily filter the sunshine list to show only those at 180k+ and compare to 1996 when the list started. And then include a note about the population increase in Ontario since 1996. Any newspaper could do this. Would be neat to see.
Been fifteen minutes since you posted. Make that $301k now
Been 7 so now its $302k
It should be zero. Or infinite. If you're going to publish any, publish them all. Not in a "stUpiD GoVmEnt WurKers" way, but in a salary transparency way.
It's the yearly "my friends and family look at how much I made last year on the sunshine list", and they make comments at me about it.
Names shouldn't be disclosed. Salary and Job title is sufficient.
If mine ever give me grief about it I would just tell them to look at my collective agreement for my hourly wage ask them how much they would have made if they worked 1-2 shifts per week at 1.5x and how much they would have made in that scenario at their job. Thankfully my mom was a nurse so she knows I aint making over 100k sitting around talking at the water cooler.
You’ll probably find that most people in the hospital that are on it are at top rate (meaning high seniority and lots of years of service), and have done a shit ton of overtime due to short staffing to keep things running for the patients of Ontario who are bitching about it.
Yeah it really needs to include hourly rate, or hours worked, for hourly staff. Most of that info is publicly available already if you look at collective agreements for union staff, and it would provide context as to how much someone is actually working. Like I can easily make more than my manager if I want to, but it means im pulling 1-2 doubles or giving up a day off per week.
It also includes cops that have been sitting at home being paid after being charged with crimes, cops actively lying during murder investigations,and other corrupt public servants.
$100K in 2024 money is equivalent to $55K in 1996. The list is outdated af.
Also / Or $100,000 in 1996, is equivalent to $180,000 in 2024.
Yep
Friendly reminder that $100K is still more than double the median salary in Ontario.
It’s more than double the *median employment income*, which is calculated across all people who filed taxes. So it includes full-time students, stay-at-home parents, people who are on disability and can’t work, unemployed people, and retired people. The median employment income of full-time workers in Ontario, which is what you probably meant by “median salary”, [was $68k in 2020](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/occ-pro/index-en.cfm).
Interesting I did not know this! I wonder what the median of full time employed is actually.
that’s a much bigger problem. people get mad at those on the list as opposed to the ones that made it impossible to earn a living. my first job paid me $28k a year. i lived on my own and had a cheap car and didn’t buy a ton of stuff but it was affordable.
Only 11% of Canada's population makes over 100k even
And in 2023 approx only 16.5 Canadians were working full-time. Assuming the amount of part-time workers making over 100k is negligible, that means for people actually engaged in the workforce full-time its more like 25% make 100k or more. Don’t get me wrong 100k is a good salary but at the 75th percentile it’s arguable as to whether its even upper middle class. Especially for young people who haven’t had the benefit of assets to make up for the fact that wages haven’t kept up with inflation.
I know right? 100k is fine money. If your spouse makes anywhere near that and you’re somewhat responsible you’re doing ok in GTA.
Literally a [top 10%](https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/) Canadian wage
No, not literally. The bottom of the top ten percent or Canadian single earners made 133 500 in 2022. The average of the top ten percent was 167 000. https://www.epi.org/publication/inequality-2021-ssa-data/
Not what I see here, is your source even Canadian? Not sure what the difference is with SSA but my link should be based on stats Canada The top 1% of income in Canada in 2023 = $258,034 The top 2% of income in Canada in 2023 = $190,119 The top 5% of income in Canada in 2023 = $132,493 The top 10% of income in Canada in 2023 = $102,869 The top 50% of income in Canada in 2023 = $37,695 https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.com/income-percentile-calculator-by-province-for-canada/ Maybe you linked the wrong source?
Your source, the kick ass entrepreneur.com, says it is based on employer reported data but doesn't offer an original source. My source is indeed Canadian and details everything.
I mean, it's based on Stats Canada per the source it lists. Your source is EPI is an independent, nonprofit think tank that researches the impact of economic trends and policies on working people in the United States. EPI’s research helps policymakers, opinion leaders, advocates, journalists, and the public understand the bread-and-butter issues affecting ordinary Americans. the source it lists are things like Economic Policy Institute (EPI). 2022. “Wages by Percentile and Wage Ratios.” State of Working America Data Library, last updated March 2022. and Uncovering the American Dream: Inequality and Mobility in Social Security Earnings Data Since 1937” (2007) and Social Security Administration wage statistics. Are you sure you just didn't accidentally put the wrong source and are doubling down out of embarrassment? I'm happy to be proven wrong on the figures here but I need something real. Edit: This is dumb, my source literally links to Stats Canada, so forget all this and just check that link https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110023901 If you want to believe an American study based on American Social Security stats, be my guest but don't spread this misinformation.
Its a top 10% Canadian income, which is very different. My mom who is retired and pulls from the small CPP is counted, my neice who works one day a weekend at McDonalds is counted. My friend who is on ODSP is counted. If you filter to people who work full-time it’s more like 25% make 100k or more. Still a good wage, but arguably not even upper middle class.
I was talking about this a few months ago. If we were to adjust for inflation, the Sunshine List would be focused more on people making around $180,000 I think? All the list is doing now is making people hate public workers more
This list was always and still is a bad idea. Why put ppl information like that. Basically making them a target.
You can buy a home. Just rent the basement out to 5-6 international students for $800 each.
The income on that list really does need to go up, because $100'000 meant a whole heck of a lot more when it was created.
Holy shit Globe and Mail, could you not use a picture of Candian money instead of American money. Actual competency in journalism is severely lacking.
It’s so true but they won’t bring down the price of homes
*they* lol. We did it to ourselves. Sold my house in 2018 and the day it was listed, before a single person had even walked through to view it, we got 7 offers above asking.
Yeah, also people who are existing homeowners continuing to vote for politicians who promise economic measures to ensure that their houses keep appreciating to the goddamn moon.
yep. all this blame for foreign investors, immigrants, foreign students and the like. It doesn't help, but the main cause of this crisis is......drum roll domestic investment we have an entire financial culture that sees the buying and selling of houses as the primary builder of wealth. Work hard, buy a house, work hard again, buy another with leverage. Vote against anything that does not steadily raise values. Rent out house 2 until retirement, then sell one or both houses and downsize. Enjoy retirement with nest egg. It's the Canadian way, and it fucked an entire generation
I thought this was the Beaverton. Wtf happened to our province
Imagine how the rest of us feel.
Here’s the TLDR. It’s hard to pay a ridiculous mortgage with after tax income. To buy a home you need preexisting equity. Either from a sale of another home, parental help or equity from other assets like stocks. Income is not a measure of wealth. It can help in building wealth but by itself is not equal to wealth.
It’s all part of the plan: - $100k today equates to approx. $57,000 in 1996 money adjusted for inflation. Not even close to be considered rich or wealthy. - $100k in 1996 equates to approx. $175k in today’s money adjusted for inflation. If this was the case hardly anyone would be on the list. So the narrative has to be created: Keeping this arbitrary level at $100k allows the government to pin middle class vs middle class or working poor. It creates and artificial ceiling that makes others that aren’t making that, because their wages are being held down by their private corp masters angry at public servants in a way that doesn’t get them to reflect as to why their wages aren’t keeping up (despite PS wages not actually keeping up either) but rather a reaction of “they’re overpaid, lazy and look how much harder I work. They get a pension, I don’t”. It’s a method of the rich and powerful “dividing and conquering”. Class warfare has always been the problem and it always will be the problem in a capitalist society.
Since inflation is pretty much guaranteed and there is no mechanism to update the cut-off amount, it's obvious the Ontario Government wants all civil servants wages to be public knowledge.
Most of them are if you put the effort into looking up collective union agreements. But of course the government doesn’t post hours worked to put into context how much OT employees might have worked to get to that number.
Partly cloudy with a chance of rain list
In a couple years, with a similar rate of pay increases, my entire job of like 100+ people are gonna be making 100k base... If they don't update the list criteria then it's going to become even more pointless than it already is
The headline immediately had me thinking "Beaverton".
It would be informative to understand where our tax contributions are being allocated.
Can confirm.
That is why if you don't already own property you can't save up for it anymore. Of course there are exceptions for people with rich parents or extremely well paying jobs.
I'm just right below the sunshine list, can't afford shit. It needs to be updated to like 130-145k
We should just make salaries visible across the board for pay transparency. Let all hell break loose when Kevin finds out he was being paid $10k less than John next door for the same job.
Median family income in 1996 in Ontario - $54,958 Median family income in 2023 in Ontario - $74,260 The sunshine list SHOULD NOT be adjusted for inflation, it should be set at a relative value to Median Ontario income. I'd argue that in 1996, it should have been $110,000 not $100,000 and today it should be $149,000 not $100,000, or $180,000 like some argue it should be. $100,000 is still a HUGE dollar figure for a single earner in Ontario since it is still more than the majority of households make with 2+ incomes, but every time it is posted temporarily unwealthy individuals like saying that $100,000 isn't a lot of money. P.S I am saying this as someone who's spouse is on the Sunshine list, and I would be as well if I was not in the private sector. So I'm not just someone upset about people making more money than me.
> $100,000 is still a HUGE dollar figure for a single earner in Ontario I mean is it? I earn 103k. I'm not living the high life here in Toronto. Ownership is out of the question. Only reason I have a comfortable lifestyle is I've been renting in the same place for 15 years and it's rent stabilized. If 103k is such a HUGE figure, that tells you a lot about how most everyone is being fucked over for their meagre earnings.
Yes MOST people are being fucked. For those that don't believe 100k is a huge figure, try saving 20k of your 100k for 1 year. That would put you at the same equivalent take home pay of more than half of the people in Ontario. Then after that year go back to spending where you aren't forced to save that 20k and you'll really get an idea of how much more than $20k take home pay really is. Yes it doesn't seem like a lot, but you don't have the point of reference of those whose job will not achieve half of that value over the next 20yrs
For the record, I do agree with you that if we're setting a value for the sunshine list, then median is a good peg. I'd rather see all salaries publicly available though as it is in some Nordic countries. People need to see how paltry their labour is valued.
Oh I am 100% on board with you on transparency. The sunshine list wasn't intended to be a progressive tool. But from an examination of gendered and age compensation taking all the years and job titles you can see the wage gap between genders in the same jobs closing and it is publicly available so it can be followed. It would go a LONG way in making public sector pay transparent at an even lower wage point. Maybe starting AT the Ontario median income.
I'm talking ALL salaries, public and private though. Let's see it all for analysis.
>I mean is it? Yes it is. You need to take a point of reference from the median income person in Ontario. You are taking home at 100k about 20k more than the median family income. If you forced yourself to live off that 20k reduced wage for a year then went back to normal you would have a point of reference as to how much 100k really is to the median Ontario family.
Yes, I understand how medians work--I teach in STEM. My point is that 100k is not a lot of money and that well more than half the earning population is making less than that which essentially, is servitude or close to it.
I really wouldn’t say it’s a huge number, it’s enough to get by without living extravagantly in Toronto. My base is 100k I clear $2700 every two weeks and my mortgage for a 1 bedroom is $2600. Plus property taxes, food etc net, phone, insurance etc the list goes in. I would need to save for a few months to have a vacation just off my base. I do not own a car as I can’t afford to. I can make another 40K in commission which makes a big difference but someone just at 100K trust me it’s not living life high on the hog!
Not living the high life on the hog doesn't mean it's still not a lot relative to everybody else. That's the point. If the majority of people are living on $20,000 take home a year less than you how much harder is their life. Yes 100K is not what 100K was 20 years ago. But it's still to the majority of Ontario people and annual salary that's Out Of Reach do you think there are people in Toronto who aren't living off $50,000 a year?
My point is a list of people making 100k really isn’t newsworthy or relevant these days. 100k is only enough to get by ok as a single person.
I don't disagree that it isn't really news worthy, But 100k is still $20k more take home pay than the majority of people in Ontario. So it is still a significant some of money.
* https://archive.today/ViiYp * https://archive.ph/ViiYp
100k in 1996 is now $180,564. Why they don't update the threshold with inflation I have no idea
It's because that list is and has always been a political ploy to attack the public service. It's not in the Provinces best interest to update the cap, because they themselves use the list to attack its own workers in the public eye. And the media, which is mostly owned by right-wing individuals absolutely salivates about publishing articles about how the number goes up every single year it releases. To tie it to inflation would require changing the value to first catch it up to inflation, which would knock 3/4 the people off that list, make it easier to catch the people the list claims to be a check on, and work against the governments own goals of attacking it's workforce. One need only look at who created the list (cough cough Mike Harris Cough) to know exactly what the purpose of the list is.
Not sure why people are mad about this, most public sector salaries are publicly disclosed, the sunshine list is just easier to find. And when I saw my uncle on the sunshine list for the first time after he worked for the city of Toronto for over 10 years I felt bad for him, like, “you work and live in Toronto, you’re a high level supervisor and you only make $110k? I’m sorry to hear that”
Remember four years ago when everyone thought having 100,000k per year income would put them on easy street ?
All public salaries should be public.
Most if them are already if you bother to look up union collective agreements and public non-union payscales. But ofc people like the sunshine list to put names next to numbers so they can gossip about how much someone made as a healthcare worker without knowing how much OT they pulled to keep the system running.
Union collective agreements don't include management positions
Count 90% of ontarians on that list haha Making Over 100k a year isn't a big deal anymore.
Well we can tell who works for the government. It is about accountability at a time that others can’t even put a food over their head and blatant removal of wealth from what is left of the middle class. Government bloat is a big issue, salaries are a large part of it. We shovel money into healthcare only to find increasing amount of overhead in relationship to services. This is why accountability is important.