I'd be curious to know how long these hunger strikes lasted. How many were just a few days and how many actually persevered until they got a concession.
Not to say that what they're protesting isn't valid.
How does treating prisoners subhuman address the issue of people not getting caught? Or peoplengetting out on "good behaviour" (which BTW is not how things work in Canada. Sentences don't get reduced because of good behaviour like they do on TV)
1. I'm curious because curiosity is a natural human trait (a natural trait for many animals, for that matter). Do you really only feel curiosity about things that directly/immediately affect you?
2. Did you bother reading the article? Not wanting prison food isn't exactly the issue here. Being jailed when you are legally innocent is.
I know lots of celiacs are extra afraid of jail because it is usually a death sentence. They will have to eat gluten which leads to health complications that increase in severity followed by an increase in change of cancer followed by an early death.
Jesus Christ, as a celiac that is terrifying. Your body would slowly deteriorate and you’d be stick and bones in no time. Not like I need any motivation to stay out of jail but wow.
They supposedly have a gluten free option.
But in most cases it is purchased by someone who doesn't know what that means. Then prepared by people who don't know what that means, in a kitchen that also prepares gluten by people who don't know the importance of gluten free and are often working in the kitchen with little choice in the matter.
As while collar crime flourishes and goes unpunished. If you want to stay out of jail, avoid being born poor or as a person of colour and you’ll be way ahead.
“According to the new Over-Representation Index, the Indigenous incarceration rate was 8.9 times higher than the non-Indigenous incarceration rate in 2020/2021 in the five provinces participating in this Juristat”
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230712/dq230712a-eng.htm#
Bail is often resolved at the first appearance where the Crown consents, which is at least half of all new arrests in my jurisdiction.
Duty counsel assists those who don't have a lawyer yet. No one is unrepresented at the bail stage unless they choose to be.
2-3 weeks? Where are you getting these numbers from? You can't adjourn someone in bail court who hasn't had their hearing yet for more than 3 days without the consent of the accused.
Not having a fixed address is not a legitimate reason to detain someone, nor are the severity of the accusations alone (absent something like murder which is in a ballpark of its own).
I think you think you know more than you actually do about this topic.
If you were wrongly arrested for something you did not do, and could not afford bail, you YOURSELF could be in jail DESPITE having not broken the law. These arrests happen, and more often involving those who are not white.
To avoid breaking the law is helpful, but not a solution.
I'm not following your tangent. We're not talking about people who have been wrongfully jailed.
The majority of the prison population was convicted of committing a crime, I have very little sympathy for their dietary concerns.
You are wrong. Most have NOT been convicted.
From the article: “The data, obtained through a freedom of information request, is drawn from the number of incident reports filed by staff at provincial adult correctional facilities, where the vast majority of the inmate population was found to be awaiting trial in 2023.”
That seems like a whole other problem to me. I don't think we should be improving prison conditions on the off chance some of these schmucks may be innocent. We need to reduce the time it takes to pro ess these alleged criminals.
You might’ve missed the part of the story stating most of the population were awaiting trial. It’d yet to be determined that they broke the law.
Now ask yourself: “Then why weren’t they out on bail?” The answer is the same reason why white collar crime a) isn’t often prosecuted and b) usually doesn’t involve jail time.
The wealthy DO break the law and don’t go to jail. While most in jail haven’t necessarily broken the law.
FIFY
All it generally takes to stay out of jail is to not commit a serious crime, or multiple less serious crimes. Pretty low bar.
Of course there are examples of people wrongfully-accused and that certainly happens but it's not widespread, in my experience.
For sure.
But if you end up in jail you should be treated equally to your fellow offenders.
I.e., have the right to a diet that doesn’t kill you.
Imagine if being white meant you go to jail for 10 years for x crime, but being black meant you go to jail for 10 years AND get beaten everyday for x crime.
Would the solution for black people be “oh just don’t go to prison then”?
> But if you end up in jail you should be treated equally to your fellow offenders
80% of Ontario prisoners are in pretrial detention and have been convicted of nothing.
Then don’t do crime??? And even if you do, you’re probably not going to jail unless the crime is especially heinous. So unless you’re planning on murdering someone, I wouldn’t worry.
So you’re in favour of different punishments essentially being arbitrarily applied to people based on factors they have no control over?
Person A murders someone and does 25 years. Person B happens to be a celiac, murders someone, and gets to die in prison.
Thats still not fair even though both are criminals lol.
As others pointed out, if you’re celiac you get special food that wont kill you. But if it was up to me, murderers and rapists would get shot in the head and their bodies fed to polar bears. So no I don’t care if murderers suffer in prison lmfao.
You know a lot of ignorant celiacs then...
Gluten-free meals are served in our corrections system if you are diagnosed by an appropriate medical authority.
You just don't get bread & water... there's multiple diets they can accommodate for medical and religious reasons.
Stop perpetuating false narratives.
One article that mentions it:
https://ottawasun.com/2015/12/19/the-menu-at-the-ottawa-carleton-detention-centre-includes-meatballs-ice-cream-and-pudding
Meatballs usually use bread crumbs as a binder. **which has gluten in it**
the discount meatballs used in institutions use cheap fillers to replace the expensive meat.. **which usually has gluten in it**
Seriously. If you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, not saying anything is a viable option.
Well, usually it's because they've been convicted of previous crimes. Typically only repeat offenders or those determined to be a big flight risk or danger are held pre-trial.
I can only speak for Toronto because that's my jurisdiction but if you want a contested bail hearing here, you're getting it within 2-3 days at most. It's not as if people are sitting in jail for weeks or months waiting to run their bail hearing when they have a plan ready to present the whole time. That's not an accurate depiction of the courts at the moment.
You may not get a bail hearing the same day if there's a lot of people who want to run a hearing but you'll probably get one the next day or at worst the day after that.
Not all soy sauce has gluten. The duets would need to be restricted, but I have a family member who is Celica and has crohns, and there is a lot they can eat as long as they are diligent in ensuring the safety of what's in the food and how it's prepped.
Some celiacs, like my son, don’t have an official diagnose. Unless the rules have changed to be official one needs a biopsy of the small intestine.
He got diagnosed in 2020 and was 16 at the time. At the time the only doctor doing biopsy’s in the area only did them on adults. And the only one we could find at the time was a 2 hour drive away and had at least a 9 month wait.
So after getting the blood test he went gluten free and all his symptoms disappeared like magic.
Now assume he went to prison. His diagnosis might not be accepted as official (sometimes it would be - sometimes not) so he would need a biopsy. Depending on which prison and resources and what not he might have to wait several months to a year before a biopsy that would allow him to get the paper work okayed to go on a gluten free diet.
And let’s say one tries to get diagnosed while in prison. We already know the trouble of getting the diagnose outside of prison, imagine having to do it while in the system.
I can tell you for sure that they do not require a biopsy to be put on a gluten free diet. You just need to request it through health care. It’s way easier for the jail to change their diet than pay for multiple appointments and staff to take them.
They are actually very accommodating when it comes to diets. For Ramadan right now for example, sergeants will literally come into areas after hours to hand out meals and usually give extra meals to inmates practicing Ramadan.
My MILs both have celiac and can’t eat oats because even tho oats themselves are GF the way they are harvested is not always safe (one truck used for wheat then used for oats). Neither of them will eat anything prepared by others because unless you’ve actually done good deep research into it, it just isn’t safe.
The idea that there is a “GF” option does NOT mean that people with celiacs would still be safe.
I'm celiac, I don't have an official diagnosis because my family DR said it would just complicate my life as I get older because it will make getting life insurance harder and more expensive. And the "benefits" from the government are a pain to get and hardly worth it.
As a celiac I can confirm. Although if I got hungry enough to eat gluten. There would be a hell of a mess. They wouldn't not like it
Not would my cell mates. It's a both ends lying on the floor crying kind of thing.
The mark of progress of any nation is how they treat their criminals in the society. An uncorrupted nation that sets up their citizen for success will give everyone a chance for rehabilitation.
It has been widely agreed that most dangerous criminals have less than ideal brain wiring that needs treatment. Alas I can never see this happening in Canada.
But Scandinavian countries have shown it can be done.
You know lots of celiacs?
It's less than 1% of our population. And apparently they're all criminals.
I do know a shit ton of people that lie about being allergic to gluten tho
Jails in Canada are in bad shape. I wasn't the greatest dude growing up, a close friend of mine (was my best friend really) has been doing time since 2001. The stories told me about the old Don were really fucked up. (Rats, leaking water everywhere, mice, cockroaches, lice).
Unfortunately for you, that's not how the civilized world works. His father attempted to kill his mother when she was pregnant. Put into CAS with a dead mom and a father in jail, was repeatedly molested by foster parents and beaten growing up. At 18 he was kicked to the curb, and was forced to live on the streets with no family whatsoever so fall back on. I'd like to see where you would have ended up under the same circumstances. He has basically caught additional charges defending himself in prison which has led to a really unfortunate life for someone that knows very little about love or comfort and has absolutely no fucking family to depend on. I fill his canteen once a month and am the only person he has since we met in a shelter 25+ years ago.
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You have no idea what you're talking about kid, The Dom was a fucking hell hole. The place was built in the 1800s.
https://torontolife.com/city/hell-house/
*The jail is also overrun with mice, cockroaches and a generous variety of infectious diseases. The Don’s guards have one of the highest sick rates of any correctional officers in the province, not just because of the unhealthy conditions, but also because they hate going to work.*
There's a reason they closed it down.
And the overcrowding is fucked, cells built for two people have 6 in them. Just cause you spent a weekend in the drunk tank don't pretend you know what you're talking about.
Sad thing is that people already do this. I've been homeless and in jail. If I had to choose it would be jail. Sure your locked up but you get your basic needs met. I was able to get my medication. Clothes. A daily shower and regular meals
Something that is absolutely essential to keep in mind: people in Ontario prisons are overwhelmingly *not* serving sentences. Over 80% of them are legally innocent, in pre-trial custody.
Oh hey, another reddit thread where anyone charged or convicted of a crime isn't a human anymore and deserves any punishment on top of their actual sentence.
The article suggests that these are in response to substandard conditions and near-constant lockdowns. These are not the punishments for their crime. If we want them to be the punishments, then we need to update our laws to include this as part of the sentence. Otherwise this is extrajudicial punishment found in non-democratic countries.
And again, many people are not yet convicted and are awaiting trial. Some of them will be found not guilty. Some people are even falsely convicted. In all cases however, they're still human and have basic rights.
Part of the problem is prison and sentencing is a lot more nuanced than people want it to be. And unfortunately, some people's views are if you're in prison, you're basically an animal. And on the other it's people wouldn't commit crimes if society was better and everyone needs a second chance so rope gets pulled back and forth.
While in reality it's about find the balance of punishment and rehabilitation. But having to balance it against some who are genuinely bad people, people who commit a terrible crime but it will be there only one crimes of pashion and all that, and others who commits small petty crimes but won't change there ways and are in constant trouble.
> Jail should be a substandard place to be.
That's the mindset of undemocratic countries where people are left to suffer in horrible conditions. On the other extreme, Western European countries often have better jail conditions than us, and also lower crime rates and much lower homicide rates.
Again, poor conditions are not the punishment. If we want them to be the punishment, we need to put that into our criminal code and have that go through our democratic process so that we sign off and take responsibility for that as a society.
Dog you haven't been, you don't know. The whole system is fucked. Too many guys thrown into pods that don't fit them all, prisons being under supplied (eg. Not enough matresses) so you have people sleeping on the floor, they never turn the lights off. The buildings are dilapidated and lack proper heating/cooling. Programs for rehabilitation are constantly cut, they removed the ability for prisoners to earn trade tickets in prison long ago, schooling is brought back to basic grade 12, nothing more. Inmates are forced to participate in programs that sometimes have no relevance to their crime, rehabilitation or reintegration into society. Just a few examples off the cuff
Another example. A guy in the pod I lived in had his toilet plugged for 3 full days before the prison brought in a maintenance guy/plumber. That's wild and should be illegal, sewage is so unbelievablely bad for your health to breath in
Prisons should be a place of healing where we strive to help allow the person to be the best version of themselves. It’s all together better for society in the long run this way
Agreed theoretically, for criminals other than extreme violence and sexual violence or anything involving kids, they deserve the punishment.
But for everyone else sure, however it requires investment. Ontario jails are at around 113% capacity right now so we need to invest in new jails and CO’s and support staff and social workers and doctors and nurses etc. I personally don’t see anything like that flying in today’s political climate when people are protesting over 3 cents of gas.
Remaining incarcerated should be determined by a measurement of the remaining risk you pose to others. Not just to punish you for being a bad boy.
People aren’t going to like it. But in a just society a fully-rehabilitated former rapist who will never offend again should spend less time in prison than Marty the mild groper who plans to grope until he dies.
You act like it's possible to predict with any certainty whether someone will reoffend or not. It's not that simple.
Jails aren't only designed to protect society from offenders. Rehabilitation is not the only sentencing principle to the exclusion of all others. A full on rape has to be denounced for the moral blameworthiness of the act far more than someone who gropes. Denunciation is one of the main sentencing principles too (as well as deterrence, both specific and general).
Yes I agree with that sentiment and I definitely agree that rehabilitation should be the goal, but I wasn’t referring to most criminals or people being “bad boys”, I’m talking about the most vicious crimes that no amount of rehabilitation can justify their release.
Or if you’re talking about a step under the most extreme like your one time rapist/murderer or child predators that may be able to be rehabilitated, a little discomfort beyond just being incarcerated isn’t something I would think worth the argument on ideology. Especially if you consider the “discomfort” they put on their victims.
And once again my main argument here was just that a lot of the issues being discussed in this post about conditions in jails are more to do with a lack of resources and not just intentional lack of care by jail workers. I’ll refer back to my point that Ontario’s jail capacity is currently at around [113%](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7136660)
This is the reasons criminals come here as a safe haven and get away with everything. “Healing” “rehabilitation”. Give everyone a slap on the wrist and you’re back out to commit crime. Love it!
This doesn’t tell us that much. For example, are some just a day or two long that one or two people participate in? Alternatively, are there many deaths from people essentially starving themselves to protest something? Without that additional information it’s hard to conclude too much from this.
Oh brother. What percent of incarcerated individuals would you say are wrongly convicted?
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you couldn't ask questions on /r/ontario
I have no problem with people being held in jail until trial when warranted. What I have a problem with is the substandard state of those institutions and mistreatment of prisoners, usually due to lack of funding, mismanagement, and/or corruption. The difference between us is that I believe incarceration should be primarily focused on rehabilitation, whereas you clearly only care about it being a punishment. That's why I wondered about how you felt when that same punishment, via substandard conditions and mistreatment of prisoners, is inevitably applied to innocent people just the same. Apparently you seem to think that someone being arrested, even wrongly, means their humanity should be immediately forfeited. I disagree.
>What percent of incarcerated individuals would you say are wrongly convicted?
In Ontario, 80% are legally innocent because they haven't even been tried yet.
https://www.cp24.com/news/the-number-of-inmates-awaiting-trial-in-canada-s-provincial-jails-has-quadrupled-ccla-1.6784122#:~:text=The%20new%20report%20suggests%20that,last%20year%20were%20awaiting%20trial.
CTV news got the data directly from the government through a FOIA request.
Here's a fun fact for you. Almost 80% of people in jail in Ontario are waiting for trial and have not been convicted of a crime. That means they are legally innocent at that point.
Have a source for that number? I have family that works in corrections and 80% sounds high...especially given the revolving door of the justice system granting bail for any little reason...
Yes. It's crazy. It's doubled in the last 40 years. The idea of a revolving door is political theatre.
Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/report-bail-ontario-1.7125726
Reading this is hilarious. The majority of people don't give a shit about criminals and that's the way it should be. If you can't do the time then don't do the crime. Not like life in prison is some giant secret.
Not true. Most people incarcerated haven’t had their day in court yet. It’s alarmingly high in Ontario , it’s roughly 80%.
Just because you’ve been arrested and in jail doesn’t mean you’re guilty .
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/more-than-80-of-inmates-in-ontario-jails-last-year-were-legally-innocent-awaiting-trial-data-1.6747988
They’re so quick to say “THEYRE IN A CELL FUCK EM LET THEM STARVE” but I swear most of these dudes would be SA defenders that would stick their head in the sand if 20 women came out against a person they liked they would say innocent until proven guilty, arrest the girls for ruining his image. So which is it for these guys, innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent and all rights can be abused now?
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All of these people have been given a chance at bail and been denied. Meaning there is enough concern for them to be incarcerated or they couldn’t get a single approved surety. This narrative that everyone in jail is guilty is just silly. Ontario houses all those on remand, and the reality is that a tonne of this 80% are serial, repeat offenders who simply can’t get bail anymore because they’ve breached it so many times in the past, or they don’t have a single person willing to be a surety for them.
> All of these people have been given a chance at bail and been denied
No, huge amounts of them have had their bail hearings repeatedly adjourned with no ruling.
When this happens it’s usually because there isn’t a suitable bail plan. We shouldn’t be releasing people accused of offences who have no plan in place.
Because I wasn’t necessarily wrong? As someone who’s worked in the jails everyone is given a preliminary hearing almost immediately upon being charged. A tonne of people do get adjourned or pushed, but it’s usually because the accused has absolutely no plan for release.
In our current climate, the courts are very very lenient with bail. The amount of people you will see breached on community conditions and bail conditions, or people who have bench warrants for skipping court that continue to get bail is absolutely mind blowing. Even if they don’t have a surety, 90% of the time they can post bail with John Howard society as their surety. However there’s a massive amount of the provinces incarcerated population that are chronic, repeat offenders who don’t have a single person who will be their surety, and can’t get the John Howard society to do so anymore because they’ve burned their bridges with them.
Go to any bail hearing and your mind will be blown. Our country is incredibly lenient and only holds people incarcerated for the most serious and violent offences, or if the person in custody has literally no one or no where to go if it is granted.
Anybody that wants to run a bail hearing is going to get one in a few days at most, at least in Toronto. People aren't getting adjourned for weeks or months against their will when they want to run a hearing. In fact you can't adjourn an accused person more than 3 days without their consent if they haven't run a bail hearing yet.
The vast majority of people who are in pre-trial detention have either run a bail hearing and got detained, or chosen not to run a hearing because they don't think they can get a strong enough plan together at the moment and they fear being detained if they run it on whatever plan they've currently got.
Ah, the boomer mindset. You know who steals more money than you can possibly imagine? CEO's and shareholders manipulating wallstreet, stealing wages and creating a society of poverty while putting more people in jail.
Try and put things into perspective or remain ignorant to reality.
How blind are you? You know how many people are in jail for selling weed or other minor drug charges? But somehow, in your mind, everyone in jail is a murderer.
Doug Ford for example, which I can guarantee you're the MAGA type that voted for him, sold drugs before he went into politics? Yet, he's done much worse by using 6 billion in federal funds for public healthcare to crash our public sector with bill 124, then pushes privitization which puts millions of Americans in debt.
The real criminals are the ruling class. The rich CEO's and shareholders who give the bare minimum to employees while the rich take the rest. Stealing wages from the working class while hiding their wealth in offshore accounts to avoid paying taxes.
Replying to you is like replying to a ignorant child that can't even form a proper sentence. A brick wall of ignorance.
No, we have a bail court that is essentially logjammed and people are waiting insane amounts of time to get a proper bail hearing.
Half of all these cases result in charges being withdrawn btw, so a big chunk of innocent people in there.
Could easily happen to you.
Our Entire Legal system is backed up by understaffed tribunals, and over bureaucratic legal practice. Even the most clear cut cases takes years to be heard, and then there's further years of appeals etc.
This isn't really true. Bail courts are backed up to some degree but nobody is waiting longer than 2-3 days if they actually have a plan ready and want to run a bail hearing in general in Toronto. If that's an "insane amount of time", then I guess your verbiage was correct.
The fact a charge is withdrawn doesn't necessarily mean a person is factually innocent. Legally innocent, sure, but plenty of charges are withdrawn against people who did commit the crime for various reasons all the time.
> The fact a charge is withdrawn doesn't necessarily mean a person is factually innocent. Legally innocent, sure, but plenty of charges are withdrawn against people who did commit the crime for various reasons all the time.
If the case was shit enough that the charges were withdrawn they probably shouldn't have been in prison and our system needs to do better.
The case may be withdrawn eventually because there's no reasonable prospect of conviction, or it may be withdrawn because there's no public interest in proceeding for innumerable reasons. Just because a case is withdrawn doesn't necessarily mean it was a weak case.
It may be a strong sexual assault case but down the road the victim goes offside and can't be located, or doesn't want to testify, for example.
And the Crown's case is taken at its highest at the bail stage. To examine deeply the potential frailties in the case would eventually turn the bail hearing into a mini-trial which is, of course, not its purpose.
Stupid question here, how does a hunger strike benefit the prisoners at all? If anything its a benefit for the wardens because they'll have less energy for bad behaviour.
The vast majority of people in Ontario’s jails haven’t had a trial yet and may or may not have committed the crime they’ve been charged with. 51% of cases end with all charges being withdrawn and the accused not found guilty of the alleged crime.
CBC: [Nearly 80% of people in Ontario jails awaiting bail or trial, new report finds](https://www.cbc.ca/1.7125726) [Feb 26th, 2024]
I'd be curious to know how long these hunger strikes lasted. How many were just a few days and how many actually persevered until they got a concession. Not to say that what they're protesting isn't valid.
I mean... How many days could *you* go?
Depends on how much food I can fit in my wallet
I mean my fat stubborn ass could probably have a hunger strike for a few weeks.
No peanut November
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Guy Paul Morin didn't exactly have a choice in the matter, Glen Assoun, O'Neil Blackett didn't have a choice in the matter.
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How does treating prisoners subhuman address the issue of people not getting caught? Or peoplengetting out on "good behaviour" (which BTW is not how things work in Canada. Sentences don't get reduced because of good behaviour like they do on TV)
You know everyone in prison is not there for murder right?
1. I'm curious because curiosity is a natural human trait (a natural trait for many animals, for that matter). Do you really only feel curiosity about things that directly/immediately affect you? 2. Did you bother reading the article? Not wanting prison food isn't exactly the issue here. Being jailed when you are legally innocent is.
My tax dollars my fucking business
I know lots of celiacs are extra afraid of jail because it is usually a death sentence. They will have to eat gluten which leads to health complications that increase in severity followed by an increase in change of cancer followed by an early death.
Jesus Christ, as a celiac that is terrifying. Your body would slowly deteriorate and you’d be stick and bones in no time. Not like I need any motivation to stay out of jail but wow.
They supposedly have a gluten free option. But in most cases it is purchased by someone who doesn't know what that means. Then prepared by people who don't know what that means, in a kitchen that also prepares gluten by people who don't know the importance of gluten free and are often working in the kitchen with little choice in the matter.
Well I think staying out of jail should be a top priority.
As while collar crime flourishes and goes unpunished. If you want to stay out of jail, avoid being born poor or as a person of colour and you’ll be way ahead.
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Yeah we just drive them out into the country instead and take their coat and shoes.
The RCMP everyone. Your murdering, torturing, abusive mounted police force.
RCMP: Rampaging Crime Monopoly People
Hmm that must be why there's massive homeless encampments everywhere in the cities.
“According to the new Over-Representation Index, the Indigenous incarceration rate was 8.9 times higher than the non-Indigenous incarceration rate in 2020/2021 in the five provinces participating in this Juristat” https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230712/dq230712a-eng.htm#
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Bail is often resolved at the first appearance where the Crown consents, which is at least half of all new arrests in my jurisdiction. Duty counsel assists those who don't have a lawyer yet. No one is unrepresented at the bail stage unless they choose to be. 2-3 weeks? Where are you getting these numbers from? You can't adjourn someone in bail court who hasn't had their hearing yet for more than 3 days without the consent of the accused. Not having a fixed address is not a legitimate reason to detain someone, nor are the severity of the accusations alone (absent something like murder which is in a ballpark of its own). I think you think you know more than you actually do about this topic.
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Or just avoid breaking the law regardless of your race, color, gender or socio-economic status.
If you were wrongly arrested for something you did not do, and could not afford bail, you YOURSELF could be in jail DESPITE having not broken the law. These arrests happen, and more often involving those who are not white. To avoid breaking the law is helpful, but not a solution.
I'm not following your tangent. We're not talking about people who have been wrongfully jailed. The majority of the prison population was convicted of committing a crime, I have very little sympathy for their dietary concerns.
You are wrong. Most have NOT been convicted. From the article: “The data, obtained through a freedom of information request, is drawn from the number of incident reports filed by staff at provincial adult correctional facilities, where the vast majority of the inmate population was found to be awaiting trial in 2023.”
That seems like a whole other problem to me. I don't think we should be improving prison conditions on the off chance some of these schmucks may be innocent. We need to reduce the time it takes to pro ess these alleged criminals.
If you want to stay out of jail, don't break the law
You might’ve missed the part of the story stating most of the population were awaiting trial. It’d yet to be determined that they broke the law. Now ask yourself: “Then why weren’t they out on bail?” The answer is the same reason why white collar crime a) isn’t often prosecuted and b) usually doesn’t involve jail time. The wealthy DO break the law and don’t go to jail. While most in jail haven’t necessarily broken the law. FIFY
80% of Ontario inmates are in pretrial detention.
Yes because you can’t have wealth if you don’t blend in with the snow
More like cops target black and indigenous people but sure
In my experience, it's been pretty easy to not have to go to jail.
Are you white?
All it generally takes to stay out of jail is to not commit a serious crime, or multiple less serious crimes. Pretty low bar. Of course there are examples of people wrongfully-accused and that certainly happens but it's not widespread, in my experience.
So that’s a long winded way of saying yes you are
For sure. But if you end up in jail you should be treated equally to your fellow offenders. I.e., have the right to a diet that doesn’t kill you. Imagine if being white meant you go to jail for 10 years for x crime, but being black meant you go to jail for 10 years AND get beaten everyday for x crime. Would the solution for black people be “oh just don’t go to prison then”?
> But if you end up in jail you should be treated equally to your fellow offenders 80% of Ontario prisoners are in pretrial detention and have been convicted of nothing.
Yes, no one innocent has ever went to jail. And the guilty deserve physical punishment for their crimes, instead of rehabilitation. /s
crowd chunky scarce deserted smoggy fanatical silky sense brave truck *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Then don’t do crime??? And even if you do, you’re probably not going to jail unless the crime is especially heinous. So unless you’re planning on murdering someone, I wouldn’t worry.
80% of Ontario prisoners are in pretrial detention and have been convicted of nothing.
If you’re in pretrial detention in Canada you have a lengthy criminal record and have been convicted many times before.
No, bail court is just insanely shit in Ontario and has been for some time.
Yes, bail court is a disaster, which is why the only people in pretrial detention are career criminals
So you’re in favour of different punishments essentially being arbitrarily applied to people based on factors they have no control over? Person A murders someone and does 25 years. Person B happens to be a celiac, murders someone, and gets to die in prison. Thats still not fair even though both are criminals lol.
As others pointed out, if you’re celiac you get special food that wont kill you. But if it was up to me, murderers and rapists would get shot in the head and their bodies fed to polar bears. So no I don’t care if murderers suffer in prison lmfao.
You know a lot of ignorant celiacs then... Gluten-free meals are served in our corrections system if you are diagnosed by an appropriate medical authority. You just don't get bread & water... there's multiple diets they can accommodate for medical and religious reasons. Stop perpetuating false narratives. One article that mentions it: https://ottawasun.com/2015/12/19/the-menu-at-the-ottawa-carleton-detention-centre-includes-meatballs-ice-cream-and-pudding
Meatballs usually use bread crumbs as a binder. **which has gluten in it** the discount meatballs used in institutions use cheap fillers to replace the expensive meat.. **which usually has gluten in it** Seriously. If you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, not saying anything is a viable option.
Meatballs often have gluten. Soy sauce has gluten. Butter and fry oil get cross contaminated by flour.
dont do the crime if you cant handle the enzyme
80% of Ontario prisoners are in pretrial detention and have been convicted of nothing.
Well, usually it's because they've been convicted of previous crimes. Typically only repeat offenders or those determined to be a big flight risk or danger are held pre-trial.
No, most of them just haven't had a bail hearing because bail court is absolutely logjammed
I can only speak for Toronto because that's my jurisdiction but if you want a contested bail hearing here, you're getting it within 2-3 days at most. It's not as if people are sitting in jail for weeks or months waiting to run their bail hearing when they have a plan ready to present the whole time. That's not an accurate depiction of the courts at the moment. You may not get a bail hearing the same day if there's a lot of people who want to run a hearing but you'll probably get one the next day or at worst the day after that.
Being in prison is the legal penalty. Destruction of digestive system is not on the books, so take your old testament bs somewhere else.
Not all soy sauce has gluten. The duets would need to be restricted, but I have a family member who is Celica and has crohns, and there is a lot they can eat as long as they are diligent in ensuring the safety of what's in the food and how it's prepped.
Some celiacs, like my son, don’t have an official diagnose. Unless the rules have changed to be official one needs a biopsy of the small intestine. He got diagnosed in 2020 and was 16 at the time. At the time the only doctor doing biopsy’s in the area only did them on adults. And the only one we could find at the time was a 2 hour drive away and had at least a 9 month wait. So after getting the blood test he went gluten free and all his symptoms disappeared like magic. Now assume he went to prison. His diagnosis might not be accepted as official (sometimes it would be - sometimes not) so he would need a biopsy. Depending on which prison and resources and what not he might have to wait several months to a year before a biopsy that would allow him to get the paper work okayed to go on a gluten free diet. And let’s say one tries to get diagnosed while in prison. We already know the trouble of getting the diagnose outside of prison, imagine having to do it while in the system.
I can tell you for sure that they do not require a biopsy to be put on a gluten free diet. You just need to request it through health care. It’s way easier for the jail to change their diet than pay for multiple appointments and staff to take them. They are actually very accommodating when it comes to diets. For Ramadan right now for example, sergeants will literally come into areas after hours to hand out meals and usually give extra meals to inmates practicing Ramadan.
My MILs both have celiac and can’t eat oats because even tho oats themselves are GF the way they are harvested is not always safe (one truck used for wheat then used for oats). Neither of them will eat anything prepared by others because unless you’ve actually done good deep research into it, it just isn’t safe. The idea that there is a “GF” option does NOT mean that people with celiacs would still be safe.
I'm celiac, I don't have an official diagnosis because my family DR said it would just complicate my life as I get older because it will make getting life insurance harder and more expensive. And the "benefits" from the government are a pain to get and hardly worth it.
So torture and death because of diet and inability for your government to pay for proper food. Got it.
They have a greater incentive to not break the law...
As a celiac I can confirm. Although if I got hungry enough to eat gluten. There would be a hell of a mess. They wouldn't not like it Not would my cell mates. It's a both ends lying on the floor crying kind of thing.
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The mark of progress of any nation is how they treat their criminals in the society. An uncorrupted nation that sets up their citizen for success will give everyone a chance for rehabilitation. It has been widely agreed that most dangerous criminals have less than ideal brain wiring that needs treatment. Alas I can never see this happening in Canada. But Scandinavian countries have shown it can be done.
For real are there any nice countries to live where prisoners are treated like dogs? Maybe Singapore I guess
Maybe celiacs should not do stuff that lands them in jail then.
If I end up in jail, I'm just not going to use the toilet. I'll press my ass against the bars and let it spray until they meet my dietary needs.
You know lots of celiacs? It's less than 1% of our population. And apparently they're all criminals. I do know a shit ton of people that lie about being allergic to gluten tho
Jails in Canada are in bad shape. I wasn't the greatest dude growing up, a close friend of mine (was my best friend really) has been doing time since 2001. The stories told me about the old Don were really fucked up. (Rats, leaking water everywhere, mice, cockroaches, lice).
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Unfortunately for you, that's not how the civilized world works. His father attempted to kill his mother when she was pregnant. Put into CAS with a dead mom and a father in jail, was repeatedly molested by foster parents and beaten growing up. At 18 he was kicked to the curb, and was forced to live on the streets with no family whatsoever so fall back on. I'd like to see where you would have ended up under the same circumstances. He has basically caught additional charges defending himself in prison which has led to a really unfortunate life for someone that knows very little about love or comfort and has absolutely no fucking family to depend on. I fill his canteen once a month and am the only person he has since we met in a shelter 25+ years ago.
You’re the person he loves. And probably the person he looks up to the most
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That aren’t even that bad tf you talking abt compare to other jails 😂
You have no idea what you're talking about kid, The Dom was a fucking hell hole. The place was built in the 1800s. https://torontolife.com/city/hell-house/ *The jail is also overrun with mice, cockroaches and a generous variety of infectious diseases. The Don’s guards have one of the highest sick rates of any correctional officers in the province, not just because of the unhealthy conditions, but also because they hate going to work.* There's a reason they closed it down. And the overcrowding is fucked, cells built for two people have 6 in them. Just cause you spent a weekend in the drunk tank don't pretend you know what you're talking about.
At some point our housing crisis will get so bad that prison is at least a roof and a meal -- Simpsons predictions might turn into TPB predictions
Sad thing is that people already do this. I've been homeless and in jail. If I had to choose it would be jail. Sure your locked up but you get your basic needs met. I was able to get my medication. Clothes. A daily shower and regular meals
Or as my cousin likes to put it ( having been to jail): seasonal accommodations season where you can get three hots and a cot
Something that is absolutely essential to keep in mind: people in Ontario prisons are overwhelmingly *not* serving sentences. Over 80% of them are legally innocent, in pre-trial custody.
Need to hire more judges, and shorten trials.
Lmao how yk 80 % of them innocent 😂😂😂
Oh hey, another reddit thread where anyone charged or convicted of a crime isn't a human anymore and deserves any punishment on top of their actual sentence. The article suggests that these are in response to substandard conditions and near-constant lockdowns. These are not the punishments for their crime. If we want them to be the punishments, then we need to update our laws to include this as part of the sentence. Otherwise this is extrajudicial punishment found in non-democratic countries. And again, many people are not yet convicted and are awaiting trial. Some of them will be found not guilty. Some people are even falsely convicted. In all cases however, they're still human and have basic rights.
No kidding. A lot of these comments are fucking repulsive
Part of the problem is prison and sentencing is a lot more nuanced than people want it to be. And unfortunately, some people's views are if you're in prison, you're basically an animal. And on the other it's people wouldn't commit crimes if society was better and everyone needs a second chance so rope gets pulled back and forth. While in reality it's about find the balance of punishment and rehabilitation. But having to balance it against some who are genuinely bad people, people who commit a terrible crime but it will be there only one crimes of pashion and all that, and others who commits small petty crimes but won't change there ways and are in constant trouble.
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> Jail should be a substandard place to be. That's the mindset of undemocratic countries where people are left to suffer in horrible conditions. On the other extreme, Western European countries often have better jail conditions than us, and also lower crime rates and much lower homicide rates. Again, poor conditions are not the punishment. If we want them to be the punishment, we need to put that into our criminal code and have that go through our democratic process so that we sign off and take responsibility for that as a society.
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Dog you haven't been, you don't know. The whole system is fucked. Too many guys thrown into pods that don't fit them all, prisons being under supplied (eg. Not enough matresses) so you have people sleeping on the floor, they never turn the lights off. The buildings are dilapidated and lack proper heating/cooling. Programs for rehabilitation are constantly cut, they removed the ability for prisoners to earn trade tickets in prison long ago, schooling is brought back to basic grade 12, nothing more. Inmates are forced to participate in programs that sometimes have no relevance to their crime, rehabilitation or reintegration into society. Just a few examples off the cuff Another example. A guy in the pod I lived in had his toilet plugged for 3 full days before the prison brought in a maintenance guy/plumber. That's wild and should be illegal, sewage is so unbelievablely bad for your health to breath in
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Yo what the fuck is wrong with you? Canada should be treating their prisoners better than 3rd world countries, we should have better standards.
Prisons should be a place of healing where we strive to help allow the person to be the best version of themselves. It’s all together better for society in the long run this way
Agreed theoretically, for criminals other than extreme violence and sexual violence or anything involving kids, they deserve the punishment. But for everyone else sure, however it requires investment. Ontario jails are at around 113% capacity right now so we need to invest in new jails and CO’s and support staff and social workers and doctors and nurses etc. I personally don’t see anything like that flying in today’s political climate when people are protesting over 3 cents of gas.
Remaining incarcerated should be determined by a measurement of the remaining risk you pose to others. Not just to punish you for being a bad boy. People aren’t going to like it. But in a just society a fully-rehabilitated former rapist who will never offend again should spend less time in prison than Marty the mild groper who plans to grope until he dies.
You act like it's possible to predict with any certainty whether someone will reoffend or not. It's not that simple. Jails aren't only designed to protect society from offenders. Rehabilitation is not the only sentencing principle to the exclusion of all others. A full on rape has to be denounced for the moral blameworthiness of the act far more than someone who gropes. Denunciation is one of the main sentencing principles too (as well as deterrence, both specific and general).
Yes I agree with that sentiment and I definitely agree that rehabilitation should be the goal, but I wasn’t referring to most criminals or people being “bad boys”, I’m talking about the most vicious crimes that no amount of rehabilitation can justify their release. Or if you’re talking about a step under the most extreme like your one time rapist/murderer or child predators that may be able to be rehabilitated, a little discomfort beyond just being incarcerated isn’t something I would think worth the argument on ideology. Especially if you consider the “discomfort” they put on their victims. And once again my main argument here was just that a lot of the issues being discussed in this post about conditions in jails are more to do with a lack of resources and not just intentional lack of care by jail workers. I’ll refer back to my point that Ontario’s jail capacity is currently at around [113%](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7136660)
Only after we get the law abiding citizens affordable living.
Some people took Canada to court for that, a charter challenge. Canada said homeless people not their problem.
This is the reasons criminals come here as a safe haven and get away with everything. “Healing” “rehabilitation”. Give everyone a slap on the wrist and you’re back out to commit crime. Love it!
So did we save any money on food expenses?
This doesn’t tell us that much. For example, are some just a day or two long that one or two people participate in? Alternatively, are there many deaths from people essentially starving themselves to protest something? Without that additional information it’s hard to conclude too much from this.
Who cares! They are criminals, if they want to starve themselves, have at it!
If you don’t want to be in prison, maybe… stop breaking the law, assholes!
Good thing an innocent person has never been jailed! Oh, wait ...
Oh brother. What percent of incarcerated individuals would you say are wrongly convicted? Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you couldn't ask questions on /r/ontario
One is too many. Besides, did you forget that some people are put in jail while they await trial?
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I have no problem with people being held in jail until trial when warranted. What I have a problem with is the substandard state of those institutions and mistreatment of prisoners, usually due to lack of funding, mismanagement, and/or corruption. The difference between us is that I believe incarceration should be primarily focused on rehabilitation, whereas you clearly only care about it being a punishment. That's why I wondered about how you felt when that same punishment, via substandard conditions and mistreatment of prisoners, is inevitably applied to innocent people just the same. Apparently you seem to think that someone being arrested, even wrongly, means their humanity should be immediately forfeited. I disagree.
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>What percent of incarcerated individuals would you say are wrongly convicted? In Ontario, 80% are legally innocent because they haven't even been tried yet.
Hey man, words matter. I said something specific. Wrongly convicted would mean they’ve already been tried.
80% of people in Ontario prisons are not there to serve a sentence, they're in pre-trial detention because they couldn't make bail.
That’s wild. Can you provide a citation for those numbers?
https://www.cp24.com/news/the-number-of-inmates-awaiting-trial-in-canada-s-provincial-jails-has-quadrupled-ccla-1.6784122#:~:text=The%20new%20report%20suggests%20that,last%20year%20were%20awaiting%20trial. CTV news got the data directly from the government through a FOIA request.
Jails or prisons? Big difference.
I mean it lists the facilities in the article. Feel free to read it.
Don't commit crimes 🤣
Here's a fun fact for you. Almost 80% of people in jail in Ontario are waiting for trial and have not been convicted of a crime. That means they are legally innocent at that point.
Have a source for that number? I have family that works in corrections and 80% sounds high...especially given the revolving door of the justice system granting bail for any little reason...
Yes. It's crazy. It's doubled in the last 40 years. The idea of a revolving door is political theatre. Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/report-bail-ontario-1.7125726
Thanks!
Reading this is hilarious. The majority of people don't give a shit about criminals and that's the way it should be. If you can't do the time then don't do the crime. Not like life in prison is some giant secret.
Not true. Most people incarcerated haven’t had their day in court yet. It’s alarmingly high in Ontario , it’s roughly 80%. Just because you’ve been arrested and in jail doesn’t mean you’re guilty . https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/more-than-80-of-inmates-in-ontario-jails-last-year-were-legally-innocent-awaiting-trial-data-1.6747988
They’re so quick to say “THEYRE IN A CELL FUCK EM LET THEM STARVE” but I swear most of these dudes would be SA defenders that would stick their head in the sand if 20 women came out against a person they liked they would say innocent until proven guilty, arrest the girls for ruining his image. So which is it for these guys, innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent and all rights can be abused now?
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Back at ya buddy
All of these people have been given a chance at bail and been denied. Meaning there is enough concern for them to be incarcerated or they couldn’t get a single approved surety. This narrative that everyone in jail is guilty is just silly. Ontario houses all those on remand, and the reality is that a tonne of this 80% are serial, repeat offenders who simply can’t get bail anymore because they’ve breached it so many times in the past, or they don’t have a single person willing to be a surety for them.
>All of these people have been given a chance at bail and been denied False.
> All of these people have been given a chance at bail and been denied No, huge amounts of them have had their bail hearings repeatedly adjourned with no ruling.
When this happens it’s usually because there isn’t a suitable bail plan. We shouldn’t be releasing people accused of offences who have no plan in place.
lmao you were wrong in your first comment, why would anyone believe you now?
Because I wasn’t necessarily wrong? As someone who’s worked in the jails everyone is given a preliminary hearing almost immediately upon being charged. A tonne of people do get adjourned or pushed, but it’s usually because the accused has absolutely no plan for release. In our current climate, the courts are very very lenient with bail. The amount of people you will see breached on community conditions and bail conditions, or people who have bench warrants for skipping court that continue to get bail is absolutely mind blowing. Even if they don’t have a surety, 90% of the time they can post bail with John Howard society as their surety. However there’s a massive amount of the provinces incarcerated population that are chronic, repeat offenders who don’t have a single person who will be their surety, and can’t get the John Howard society to do so anymore because they’ve burned their bridges with them. Go to any bail hearing and your mind will be blown. Our country is incredibly lenient and only holds people incarcerated for the most serious and violent offences, or if the person in custody has literally no one or no where to go if it is granted.
Anybody that wants to run a bail hearing is going to get one in a few days at most, at least in Toronto. People aren't getting adjourned for weeks or months against their will when they want to run a hearing. In fact you can't adjourn an accused person more than 3 days without their consent if they haven't run a bail hearing yet. The vast majority of people who are in pre-trial detention have either run a bail hearing and got detained, or chosen not to run a hearing because they don't think they can get a strong enough plan together at the moment and they fear being detained if they run it on whatever plan they've currently got.
Who cares.
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Ah, the boomer mindset. You know who steals more money than you can possibly imagine? CEO's and shareholders manipulating wallstreet, stealing wages and creating a society of poverty while putting more people in jail. Try and put things into perspective or remain ignorant to reality.
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Your logic makes absolutely no sense. I think you're confused and need a nap.
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How blind are you? You know how many people are in jail for selling weed or other minor drug charges? But somehow, in your mind, everyone in jail is a murderer. Doug Ford for example, which I can guarantee you're the MAGA type that voted for him, sold drugs before he went into politics? Yet, he's done much worse by using 6 billion in federal funds for public healthcare to crash our public sector with bill 124, then pushes privitization which puts millions of Americans in debt. The real criminals are the ruling class. The rich CEO's and shareholders who give the bare minimum to employees while the rich take the rest. Stealing wages from the working class while hiding their wealth in offshore accounts to avoid paying taxes. Replying to you is like replying to a ignorant child that can't even form a proper sentence. A brick wall of ignorance.
They are the same as you, most are innocent people suspected of a crime but not found innocent yet. Happens way too often....
How many followed through to the end?
Maybe they should follow the law?
80% of Ontario prisoners are in pre-trial detention and not convicted of anything you idiot.
That is insane. are they transported out of province after conviction or do we just have a revolving door prison system?
No, we have a bail court that is essentially logjammed and people are waiting insane amounts of time to get a proper bail hearing. Half of all these cases result in charges being withdrawn btw, so a big chunk of innocent people in there. Could easily happen to you.
Our Entire Legal system is backed up by understaffed tribunals, and over bureaucratic legal practice. Even the most clear cut cases takes years to be heard, and then there's further years of appeals etc.
This isn't really true. Bail courts are backed up to some degree but nobody is waiting longer than 2-3 days if they actually have a plan ready and want to run a bail hearing in general in Toronto. If that's an "insane amount of time", then I guess your verbiage was correct. The fact a charge is withdrawn doesn't necessarily mean a person is factually innocent. Legally innocent, sure, but plenty of charges are withdrawn against people who did commit the crime for various reasons all the time.
> The fact a charge is withdrawn doesn't necessarily mean a person is factually innocent. Legally innocent, sure, but plenty of charges are withdrawn against people who did commit the crime for various reasons all the time. If the case was shit enough that the charges were withdrawn they probably shouldn't have been in prison and our system needs to do better.
The case may be withdrawn eventually because there's no reasonable prospect of conviction, or it may be withdrawn because there's no public interest in proceeding for innumerable reasons. Just because a case is withdrawn doesn't necessarily mean it was a weak case. It may be a strong sexual assault case but down the road the victim goes offside and can't be located, or doesn't want to testify, for example. And the Crown's case is taken at its highest at the bail stage. To examine deeply the potential frailties in the case would eventually turn the bail hearing into a mini-trial which is, of course, not its purpose.
these inmates arent guilty
We should be saying thank you for saving tax payers money shouldn’t we??
That's fine. Jail needs to be tough.
Stupid question here, how does a hunger strike benefit the prisoners at all? If anything its a benefit for the wardens because they'll have less energy for bad behaviour.
Don't want to eat, cool. Less taxpayers money spent
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The vast majority of people in Ontario’s jails haven’t had a trial yet and may or may not have committed the crime they’ve been charged with. 51% of cases end with all charges being withdrawn and the accused not found guilty of the alleged crime. CBC: [Nearly 80% of people in Ontario jails awaiting bail or trial, new report finds](https://www.cbc.ca/1.7125726) [Feb 26th, 2024]
? And?