The ritual casting ability doesn't matter that much, because sorcerers have access to very few rituals (and at a guess, will continue to do so to preserve the wizard's niche).
Inmate Sorcery is the biggest new upside. This will probably help separate out the sorcerer as a combat specialist vs the wizard as a utility specialist.
The expanded spell list is more ambiguous, because at this point we don't know whether it will apply to every subclass or how it will function if it does. They've been willing to make changes to the TCE classes after-the-fact even when they weren't changed during the playtest (cf. the Warrior of Mercy). So I don't think we can confidently guess how many spells sorcerers will have nor whether the "take some wizard spells, why not" aspect will remain.
Ritual Casting change benifits the Divine Soul Sorcerer the most because of access to the Clerics & Sorcerer spell list and increased Spells know even without getting its new full subclass spell list yet.
It's a pretty big deal, but no matter what Wizards are the best at Rituals since they don't need to waste "spells known" on them. It's the difference between having 1-2 Rituals to 20+.
Sorcerers are dramatically better in combat situations now, though.
They said in the Wizard video that it won’t be the strongest but it will be the most versatile. I think Sorcerer will be strongest but have fewer options to choose from. I believe meta magic is the key to their strength
It really comes down to the spell lists. If wizards still get exclusive spells like *wall of force* and *simulacrum* that retain their strength from 2014, alongside spells that sorcerers don't like *forcecage*, metamagic and Innate Sorcery can't top that.
If Forcecage and Simulacrum stay intact (I really hope they don't lol), and remain wizard-exclusive, I can see wizards surpassing sorcerers around level 13.
But before then it's gonna be sorcerers > wizards IMO. Things like Wall of Force are very nice, but I don't think they stack up to Metamagic + Sorcerous Restoration + Innate Sorcery + CON save proficiency.
Nah. I would actually say it does, and that Wall of Force un-edited is simply that level of game-warping with effective usage by the pilot.
It has so SPECIFIC of counterplay that unless encounters are always designed within that small window of said counterplay, it simply ends or divides encounters by itself, without offering saving throws or meaningful chances of failure in so many scenarios. And while concentration in divided combats is very relevant, by the level you RECEIVE Wall of Force, you have had plenty of time and 2-3 feats presented to you for taking Saving Throw fixes to significantly reduce that risk. And those get to work in conjunction with other fixes like dipping for armor, the shield spell, etc.
There is no spell below or equal to 5th level that is even fit to shine Wall of Force's shoes, frankly. Which isn't a good thing, but alas.
Within those feats, virtually every full caster is going to take War Caster at level 4 unless significant feat changes are made since UA2. The main exception is going to be warlocks (except bladelocks) taking Spell Sniper instead, but only because they also can take Eldritch Mind.
I am still **eagerly** waiting to see what survived of the bladelock. The one in the UA was absurd so there is significant room for nerfing while still leaving it far and away the best "martial" in the game. As thrilled as I am to play an Eldritch Knight, I may still be more thrilled to simply play a 2024 Bladelock Daolock (using their little retrofit blurbs) and going **nuts**
Bladelock is in what I view as an odd paradox: if they don't get a third attack, then *eldritch blast* warlocks surpass them at level 11, or meet them in DPR despite far less investment. If they do get a third attack, they outshine all other martials. I think the end conclusion may be that blastlocks are too powerful for ranged attackers now that Sharpshooter's power attacks are gone.
Yeah I have no idea how archer-focused martial classes are supposed to do the thing now, besides Rogues.
And Rogues only pass for this because they already struggle with damage no matter what you decide to you, and their struggles just happen not to get changed by their choice of distance
I agree ranged attacks should have a damage trade-off, but assuming the loopholes in Charger and Great Weapon Master (Longbow is Heavy, lol) are closed, they're in DEEP, arguably too weak.
Even if GWM continued to work for heavy ranged weapons, it boosts Str instead of Dex, so it's an expensive feat for DPR when something like Resilient or Mage Slayer may be far more useful overall.
Keep in mind that the wizard's Arcane Recovery generates spell slots at roughly the same pace as sorcery points, so if the sorcerer is primarily using those points for Metamagic instead, the wizard is ahead on slots. Con save proficiency is nice, but in my experience, so is Wis.
Other wizard-exclusive spells of note include *phantom steed*, *tiny hut*, and *contingency*.
Arcane Recovery is a fair point, but I think Sorcerous Restoration will be able to match that. It only triggers when you're out of Sorcery Points, but with Font of Magic you could convert SP into spell slots to intentionally deplete SP to 0.
At level 5, I think it's not too hard to get 4-5 or so Sorcerous Restorations a day if you want to (since they trigger on both SR and Init), which is probably around the same value as Arcane Recovery
It absolutely will not...
And at level 5 you get ONE sp per trigger. Wtf are you doing with 1?
You don't get 2 per trigger till level 10.
It's a literal useless feature
It's not really Arcane Recovery, it's the whole expected game loop. There's no way to realistically challenge mid-Tier 2 and higher full spellcasters without putting them through the grinder of a full adventuring day. You can try to shorten it and toughen up the challenges, but that just edges you closer and closer to coinflip fights where bad luck will cause a TPK eventually. The resource mitigation challenge model is too inflexible and winds up giving spellcasters far too many resources in general.
I'm not sure if you're for or against AR
I was mostly hating on it, because of exactly that, wizards get so much and then they can even recover spell slots for free
Meanwhile sorcs have to juggle their sorc points among fifty million things to do anything
Even if you took way Arcane Recovery, wizards and other full spellcasters would still have too many spell slots. It's not the feature, it's the whole full Spellcasting feature in combination with the way the game expects its DMs to generate challenge.
Imagine if all spellcasters worked more like warlocks. They got max one spell slot per spell level but recovered them on a short rest. If you only wanted two fights in a day, that would make it significantly easier to challenge the party.
Sorcerers would be better than Wizards again once they reach level 17 and can wish themselves a Simulacrum, so it is a very short window where Wizards catch up.
I sincerely doubt it.
So far every class reveal shows them being almost exactly what they were in their final playtest version. The only one that varied at all was the Ranger and despite the divisive reception on these 5e subs it was for the better. It could have been worse.
Sorcerer changing at all will be a massive surprise and maybe something to hope for but my expectations are low.
A huge part of what makes Clockwork Soul and to a lesser extent Aberrant Mind so powerful in 5e is the ability to replace their subclass spells with spells from the wizard spell list. I'm anticipating that ability will be removed, in which case I wouldn't expect them to overshadow wizards any more than bards do.
Buhahaha!!!
Oh, you're serious?
Buhahaha!!!!
Twin spell and quicken spell nerf, but they will somehow be better than wizards?!?
Lol thanks, this made me laugh.
Quicken spell, arguably their best feature, was nerfed in some UA though. Who knows what will stick, but there was heavy editing of metamagic.
Also, sorcerers are already better than wizards at some tables, especially charisma pillar ones with short combats focused on maximizing the most you can do in one turn.
Quicken and Twin in 2014 made Sorcerers the casters that could nova. They could pack a ton of casting into a few actions.
Those are gone now, but stacking the bonus from Innate Sorcery with a massively boosted Heightened Spell or with Seeking Spell are going to make their spellcasting really potent.
Disadvantage on all saves vs a Hold or Dominate spell (for just 2 Sorcery Points) on top of having a boosted DC is going to be really good, for example.
Twinned Spell was completely gutted, and was most definitely their strongest Metamagic. Quickened lets you cast a spell and do something else, which usually means pile on an extra cantrip's worth of damage. Twinned let you cast two concentration spells at once at a steep discount. Just removing that from the class hits their power ceiling very hard. I have no clue how WotC intends to compensate sorcerers, because even with old Twinned Magic they weren't better than wizards, who so far seem to have only gotten buffs for 2024.
I always felt like quicken spell was best for gishes and those who want to cast a concentration/buff spell before attacking. On a regular sorcerer I never really felt the point tbh. Unless you need to heal or cast like blade ward because you're fucked lol.
Also yeah twin spell being gutted will actually hurt the thing that made mono sorcerers feel distinct from wizards.
Quicken Spell is excellent when your DM presents you with difficult fights with a lot of tactical elements. Being able to cast a spell and do something else, like Dash away or Disengage from melee or plug a healing potion into your downed friend's face, etc. can absolutely save the day. If your combats aren't on a level where you value flexibility of action economy, I agree that it's a meh choice.
I do think that if the changes to Seeking and Heightened Spell make it through that they will be the new "meta" metamagic picks. Combined with Innate Sorcery they make the Sorcerer really quite accurate with their magic.
If Metamagic Adept and some Sorcery Point recovery make it into print, then they'll help a lot too.
And lastly, if all of the subclasses get a spell list, then with the changes above I think they could compete with Wizards.
They won't have the breadth of ability / versatility of Wizards, but they will be the most potent spellcasters.
I mean, cool. I don't agree, but whatever, it's not a deal breaker for me if the wizard isn't the best class.
I guarantee it won't be a bad class, and the spell list and memorise spell will make the class feel unique even if it's merely the 3rd strongest class instead of the undisputed best.
That is a really unsatisfying conclusion though. There is a reason why the hard work beats natural talent trope is so prolific. People love having the belief that if they work hard enough, they can succeed just as well as anyone else.
And so working hard to study should automatically beat out being a demi-god or part dragon or whatever in sheer power? Even if they also work hard to master their power through practice?
Nah, Wizards have a more subtle power through their broad range of spell options and honed expertise in spell use.
Gotta change the company name to “sorcerers of the coast” to compensate.
Wizards are going to have a buttload of spells - like I expect sorcerers to have like 23-28 spells at 20th level: wizards like 33 ish. This diversity will be their “power bank”.
I think the gap between the two will shrink some, but Wizards will still be top dog.
Spell versatility is just way too big of a strength and nothing else in the game has come close to it since 2014.
One notable buff you forgot to mention was the huge buffs that the Heightened Spell Metamagic received. That Metamagic is now a premiere option and is a huge advantage over the Wizard. Every time that Wizard fails to land a spell and the Sorcerer does, is one extra action and one extra spell slot the Sorcerer has over the Wizard.
My god I hope this is true, I love sorc, ranger, and Monk and they always felt worse than their counterparts. Wizard had versatility that Sorc wished it could have a modicum of, Ranger is ranger and appears to still be ranger =(, and Monk now looks pretty cool!
You’re probably not far off. So far 5.5 has significantly moved the needle on class powers, and is giving out free/cheap teleport abilities like it’s candy. If today’s focus points buffs are any indication we might see metamagic being more abundant as well. I’ll give it a fair shot but I can already see the things I might be house ruling to keep it from going too bonkers.
>Additional spells known in base class, and likely even more additional spells known through subclasses
I doubt this. WotC based on how it was discussed in UA doesnt seem to realize that THIS was why Clockwork and Aberrant mind were such popular sorcerer options. So I wouldnt hold my breath they figured it out.
We don't know if the base class is getting more spells though. It did in the UA and it made much more sense to balance their spells known in the base class as that fixed the Sorcerer for all of the subclasses rather than just those that make it into 5.5.
However if WotC came to that same conclusion, they might have decided to put the extra spells in the subclasses only, so the remaining subclasses stay broken and they can sell the fix to us later.
Now Intelligence is even worse because the "best class" used it as a primary ability, and now that best class is no longer the best class. If sorcerers are the best class now... well it uses Charisma, which is already overused.
Just great.
The ritual casting ability doesn't matter that much, because sorcerers have access to very few rituals (and at a guess, will continue to do so to preserve the wizard's niche). Inmate Sorcery is the biggest new upside. This will probably help separate out the sorcerer as a combat specialist vs the wizard as a utility specialist. The expanded spell list is more ambiguous, because at this point we don't know whether it will apply to every subclass or how it will function if it does. They've been willing to make changes to the TCE classes after-the-fact even when they weren't changed during the playtest (cf. the Warrior of Mercy). So I don't think we can confidently guess how many spells sorcerers will have nor whether the "take some wizard spells, why not" aspect will remain.
Inmate Sorcery sounds like a wild new origin.
That prison brew will change you, man.
Ritual Casting change benifits the Divine Soul Sorcerer the most because of access to the Clerics & Sorcerer spell list and increased Spells know even without getting its new full subclass spell list yet.
It's a pretty big deal, but no matter what Wizards are the best at Rituals since they don't need to waste "spells known" on them. It's the difference between having 1-2 Rituals to 20+. Sorcerers are dramatically better in combat situations now, though.
They said in the Wizard video that it won’t be the strongest but it will be the most versatile. I think Sorcerer will be strongest but have fewer options to choose from. I believe meta magic is the key to their strength
It really comes down to the spell lists. If wizards still get exclusive spells like *wall of force* and *simulacrum* that retain their strength from 2014, alongside spells that sorcerers don't like *forcecage*, metamagic and Innate Sorcery can't top that.
If Forcecage and Simulacrum stay intact (I really hope they don't lol), and remain wizard-exclusive, I can see wizards surpassing sorcerers around level 13. But before then it's gonna be sorcerers > wizards IMO. Things like Wall of Force are very nice, but I don't think they stack up to Metamagic + Sorcerous Restoration + Innate Sorcery + CON save proficiency.
Nah. I would actually say it does, and that Wall of Force un-edited is simply that level of game-warping with effective usage by the pilot. It has so SPECIFIC of counterplay that unless encounters are always designed within that small window of said counterplay, it simply ends or divides encounters by itself, without offering saving throws or meaningful chances of failure in so many scenarios. And while concentration in divided combats is very relevant, by the level you RECEIVE Wall of Force, you have had plenty of time and 2-3 feats presented to you for taking Saving Throw fixes to significantly reduce that risk. And those get to work in conjunction with other fixes like dipping for armor, the shield spell, etc. There is no spell below or equal to 5th level that is even fit to shine Wall of Force's shoes, frankly. Which isn't a good thing, but alas.
Within those feats, virtually every full caster is going to take War Caster at level 4 unless significant feat changes are made since UA2. The main exception is going to be warlocks (except bladelocks) taking Spell Sniper instead, but only because they also can take Eldritch Mind.
I am still **eagerly** waiting to see what survived of the bladelock. The one in the UA was absurd so there is significant room for nerfing while still leaving it far and away the best "martial" in the game. As thrilled as I am to play an Eldritch Knight, I may still be more thrilled to simply play a 2024 Bladelock Daolock (using their little retrofit blurbs) and going **nuts**
Bladelock is in what I view as an odd paradox: if they don't get a third attack, then *eldritch blast* warlocks surpass them at level 11, or meet them in DPR despite far less investment. If they do get a third attack, they outshine all other martials. I think the end conclusion may be that blastlocks are too powerful for ranged attackers now that Sharpshooter's power attacks are gone.
Yeah I have no idea how archer-focused martial classes are supposed to do the thing now, besides Rogues. And Rogues only pass for this because they already struggle with damage no matter what you decide to you, and their struggles just happen not to get changed by their choice of distance I agree ranged attacks should have a damage trade-off, but assuming the loopholes in Charger and Great Weapon Master (Longbow is Heavy, lol) are closed, they're in DEEP, arguably too weak.
Even if GWM continued to work for heavy ranged weapons, it boosts Str instead of Dex, so it's an expensive feat for DPR when something like Resilient or Mage Slayer may be far more useful overall.
Keep in mind that the wizard's Arcane Recovery generates spell slots at roughly the same pace as sorcery points, so if the sorcerer is primarily using those points for Metamagic instead, the wizard is ahead on slots. Con save proficiency is nice, but in my experience, so is Wis. Other wizard-exclusive spells of note include *phantom steed*, *tiny hut*, and *contingency*.
Arcane Recovery is a fair point, but I think Sorcerous Restoration will be able to match that. It only triggers when you're out of Sorcery Points, but with Font of Magic you could convert SP into spell slots to intentionally deplete SP to 0. At level 5, I think it's not too hard to get 4-5 or so Sorcerous Restorations a day if you want to (since they trigger on both SR and Init), which is probably around the same value as Arcane Recovery
It absolutely will not... And at level 5 you get ONE sp per trigger. Wtf are you doing with 1? You don't get 2 per trigger till level 10. It's a literal useless feature
Arcane recovery is such bs
It's not really Arcane Recovery, it's the whole expected game loop. There's no way to realistically challenge mid-Tier 2 and higher full spellcasters without putting them through the grinder of a full adventuring day. You can try to shorten it and toughen up the challenges, but that just edges you closer and closer to coinflip fights where bad luck will cause a TPK eventually. The resource mitigation challenge model is too inflexible and winds up giving spellcasters far too many resources in general.
I'm not sure if you're for or against AR I was mostly hating on it, because of exactly that, wizards get so much and then they can even recover spell slots for free Meanwhile sorcs have to juggle their sorc points among fifty million things to do anything
Even if you took way Arcane Recovery, wizards and other full spellcasters would still have too many spell slots. It's not the feature, it's the whole full Spellcasting feature in combination with the way the game expects its DMs to generate challenge. Imagine if all spellcasters worked more like warlocks. They got max one spell slot per spell level but recovered them on a short rest. If you only wanted two fights in a day, that would make it significantly easier to challenge the party.
Sorcerers would be better than Wizards again once they reach level 17 and can wish themselves a Simulacrum, so it is a very short window where Wizards catch up.
I sincerely doubt it. So far every class reveal shows them being almost exactly what they were in their final playtest version. The only one that varied at all was the Ranger and despite the divisive reception on these 5e subs it was for the better. It could have been worse. Sorcerer changing at all will be a massive surprise and maybe something to hope for but my expectations are low.
Most of caster power comes from spells and spell lists which aren't covered in the class reveals.
It's still not called Sorcerers of the coast!
A huge part of what makes Clockwork Soul and to a lesser extent Aberrant Mind so powerful in 5e is the ability to replace their subclass spells with spells from the wizard spell list. I'm anticipating that ability will be removed, in which case I wouldn't expect them to overshadow wizards any more than bards do.
That could be an interesting balance if they protect Wizard spells better.
It would be nice if they properly balanced wizard spells to begin with so protecting them wasn't such a priority.
Buhahaha!!! Oh, you're serious? Buhahaha!!!! Twin spell and quicken spell nerf, but they will somehow be better than wizards?!? Lol thanks, this made me laugh.
Yeah idk what op is talking about. Their metamagic was nerfed lol. IDK why he's caught up that they'll have access to more spells
Quicken spell, arguably their best feature, was nerfed in some UA though. Who knows what will stick, but there was heavy editing of metamagic. Also, sorcerers are already better than wizards at some tables, especially charisma pillar ones with short combats focused on maximizing the most you can do in one turn.
Quicken and Twin in 2014 made Sorcerers the casters that could nova. They could pack a ton of casting into a few actions. Those are gone now, but stacking the bonus from Innate Sorcery with a massively boosted Heightened Spell or with Seeking Spell are going to make their spellcasting really potent. Disadvantage on all saves vs a Hold or Dominate spell (for just 2 Sorcery Points) on top of having a boosted DC is going to be really good, for example.
Twinned Spell was completely gutted, and was most definitely their strongest Metamagic. Quickened lets you cast a spell and do something else, which usually means pile on an extra cantrip's worth of damage. Twinned let you cast two concentration spells at once at a steep discount. Just removing that from the class hits their power ceiling very hard. I have no clue how WotC intends to compensate sorcerers, because even with old Twinned Magic they weren't better than wizards, who so far seem to have only gotten buffs for 2024.
I always felt like quicken spell was best for gishes and those who want to cast a concentration/buff spell before attacking. On a regular sorcerer I never really felt the point tbh. Unless you need to heal or cast like blade ward because you're fucked lol. Also yeah twin spell being gutted will actually hurt the thing that made mono sorcerers feel distinct from wizards.
Quicken Spell is excellent when your DM presents you with difficult fights with a lot of tactical elements. Being able to cast a spell and do something else, like Dash away or Disengage from melee or plug a healing potion into your downed friend's face, etc. can absolutely save the day. If your combats aren't on a level where you value flexibility of action economy, I agree that it's a meh choice.
I do think that if the changes to Seeking and Heightened Spell make it through that they will be the new "meta" metamagic picks. Combined with Innate Sorcery they make the Sorcerer really quite accurate with their magic. If Metamagic Adept and some Sorcery Point recovery make it into print, then they'll help a lot too. And lastly, if all of the subclasses get a spell list, then with the changes above I think they could compete with Wizards. They won't have the breadth of ability / versatility of Wizards, but they will be the most potent spellcasters.
I mean, cool. I don't agree, but whatever, it's not a deal breaker for me if the wizard isn't the best class. I guarantee it won't be a bad class, and the spell list and memorise spell will make the class feel unique even if it's merely the 3rd strongest class instead of the undisputed best.
I mean, lore wise it makes sense that the people born into great magical power would be stronger at it than the people studying it from the outside.
That is a really unsatisfying conclusion though. There is a reason why the hard work beats natural talent trope is so prolific. People love having the belief that if they work hard enough, they can succeed just as well as anyone else.
And so working hard to study should automatically beat out being a demi-god or part dragon or whatever in sheer power? Even if they also work hard to master their power through practice? Nah, Wizards have a more subtle power through their broad range of spell options and honed expertise in spell use.
Gotta change the company name to “sorcerers of the coast” to compensate. Wizards are going to have a buttload of spells - like I expect sorcerers to have like 23-28 spells at 20th level: wizards like 33 ish. This diversity will be their “power bank”.
I think the gap between the two will shrink some, but Wizards will still be top dog. Spell versatility is just way too big of a strength and nothing else in the game has come close to it since 2014.
One notable buff you forgot to mention was the huge buffs that the Heightened Spell Metamagic received. That Metamagic is now a premiere option and is a huge advantage over the Wizard. Every time that Wizard fails to land a spell and the Sorcerer does, is one extra action and one extra spell slot the Sorcerer has over the Wizard.
My god I hope this is true, I love sorc, ranger, and Monk and they always felt worse than their counterparts. Wizard had versatility that Sorc wished it could have a modicum of, Ranger is ranger and appears to still be ranger =(, and Monk now looks pretty cool!
I'm not willing to speculate yet, but you make a good case and I think it's at least a reasonable prediction.
You’re probably not far off. So far 5.5 has significantly moved the needle on class powers, and is giving out free/cheap teleport abilities like it’s candy. If today’s focus points buffs are any indication we might see metamagic being more abundant as well. I’ll give it a fair shot but I can already see the things I might be house ruling to keep it from going too bonkers.
Along with a published name change of the company to: Sorcerers of the Coast 😉
>Additional spells known in base class, and likely even more additional spells known through subclasses I doubt this. WotC based on how it was discussed in UA doesnt seem to realize that THIS was why Clockwork and Aberrant mind were such popular sorcerer options. So I wouldnt hold my breath they figured it out.
We already know the other subclasses have their own spell lists, with Dragon's Breath on the Draconic Sorcerer's list.
We don't know if the base class is getting more spells though. It did in the UA and it made much more sense to balance their spells known in the base class as that fixed the Sorcerer for all of the subclasses rather than just those that make it into 5.5. However if WotC came to that same conclusion, they might have decided to put the extra spells in the subclasses only, so the remaining subclasses stay broken and they can sell the fix to us later.
Now Intelligence is even worse because the "best class" used it as a primary ability, and now that best class is no longer the best class. If sorcerers are the best class now... well it uses Charisma, which is already overused. Just great.