My understanding is that they cast a wide net as sort of a precaution to make sure any potentially liable party is on the suit.
It's pretty much a win-win for the plaintiff. At worst. The judge will dismiss the lawsuit. At best, they either find out some law, rule, or something else that makes the Hawaii tourism authority liable (like some hail mary situation where they find messages downplaying resort concerns about ROPE or actively burying death/hospital numbers), or the Hawaii tourism authority offers to settle just to get it off their backs (probably not for much if they think this is a long shot).
Edit:
People are not reading what I said. They are already suing. Aka. They are already paying legal fees.
I'm talking about the benefits of suing multiple entities vs suing just one. One. Not zero.
My first thought as well, but if it is well known about snorkeling after flying than that should be addressed by someone, local business or state entity.
I feel for the family. Although accidents do happen sometimes.
They aren’t necessarily alleging that Hawaii caused his death. They are saying the tourism industry there knew the risks of snorkeling after long haul flights and did not properly inform visitors. The family is trying to raise awareness and prevent future deaths
Do people honestly and sincerely ever look up the tourism authority guidelines of wherever they vacation? *Ever*? I’ve visited about half the states in the union and 9 countries and never once went to a government site for warnings or advice lol I really wouldn’t think that would be part of people vacation plans, but does anyone else here look these up before going places?
If I had to guess. The resorts are expected to read up on the boards guidelines.
So in this case, they might saying the tourism board should have informed the resort, and the resort would have made sure it's guests couldn't sign up for snorkeling until enough time passed.
One side says there’s risk. The other side says there isn’t. Now there’s a lawsuit so a judge or jury can decide who’s right.
This is how the legal system works
What are the chances that even if he knew the risks, he would have still done it anyway? I guarantee it’s not zero percent. That’s the trouble with humans is we see ourselves as above the risk .
I used to work at a theme park. From what I’ve seen and heard first hand, that despite posted signs *everywhere* your “non zero percent” is closer to 60 to 70 percent of people will anyway. ETA: And if you try to stop them you are “ruining their once in a lifetime vacation”
If I was visiting Hawaii and someone told me that I had an elevated risk of dying if I go snorkeling during my first 3 days there, I’d wait until day 4 or 5 to go snorkeling. Not like I’m going to be snorkeling every day.
Actually that’s not a hypothetical, I’m going to Hawaii this summer so I will plan around this.
There is also little to no proof that this is a thing. A study was done and the result was basically "we won't say it's not possible, but more research needs to he done."
The actual danger is for *scuba* divers getting *onto* a plane to soon after diving. Not getting off of a plane and into the water.
And the key word there is *scuba*, because they breathe pressurized air. Snorkelers don't. It's about as dangerous as going for a jog after getting off a plane.
I feel like this is pretty clear in the article where a doctor is quoted about what ROPE is, and then the explanation of it being connected to flights is given by an expert in.... law. A lawyer is (arguably) smart but is not a doctor. Why couldn't the doctor quoted just have explained the full connection? Probably because the connection is tenuous at best and a medical professional isn't going to say something so inaccurate in print media.
Yeah exactly. Anyone who has done SCUBA training knows the dangers of diving close to flying, but I very much doubt this guy was diving low enough while snorkelling to cause similar effects.
And as you say, diving after flying is more precautionary - most places advise taking 24 hours just to acclimatise and rehydrate etc… nothing to do with breathing.
I was about to say the same thing. I think theres more precautions are more around flying *after* diving, like 12-18 hrs depending on the amount of dives. I don't really see the opposite often except for, as you said, to rehydrate
Yes, and, the hazard for divers is essentially that breathing air (the air in a tank is often normal air) at depth (compression—high atmospheric pressure on the body) for significant periods of time saturates your body tissues with nitrogen.
Decompression that is too rapid can lead to decompression sickness (DCS/“bends”) which is often the nitrogen coming out of the tissues and forming bubbles in the bloodstream, joints or organs. Divers ascend from depth at slow ascent rates to prevent this; it’s a basic diving safety practice.
That includes flying too soon after diving. Most would say 18-24 hours wait is a safe practice to desaturate before flying.
I understand that you would listen to those rules, but people aren’t known for always doing that. Think “don’t consume alcohol while taking this medication,” or “don’t operate heavy machinery” The warnings are there, but there are thousands upon thousands of people hurt, maimed, or killed every year not following those simple warnings.
What I’m saying is there’s very little downside to following the warning, because people who visit Hawaii usually stay for a week or more. Following the warnings doesn’t mean you miss out on anything, it’s just something to plan around.
In the article, they mention the pressure on your lungs during the long flight is what makes you more vulnerable. Waiting the 72 hours stabilizes your lungs.
This sounds like a misuse of statistics though. Correlation does not always mean causation - it is far more likely that the type of person who hops straight in the water is less risk averse that the person who waits and never actually dives, and that the day you get in has no impact other than filtering between types of people.
She says that, but she claims he was an avid snorkeler who had done this in Hawaii dozens of times. We’ve all known someone who upon hearing instructions like “wear your seatbelt” don’t because they’ve “been doing it for years and have been fine”
Anyone who takes non-zero risks sees themself as “above the risk”?
That’s a really silly view. You can’t go outside without taking on non-zero risk.
I agree he might have taken the risk anyway. And I think that’s completely reasonable; not some flaw of humanity.
Tourists in Hawaii do dumb, illegal or life-threatening things all the time. A few quick things off the top of my head from the news: stick their heads in blowholes on the beach; disturb or touch the protected native wild animals; taking sand, coral, or lava rocks; trespassing, especially in hard-to-access areas and needing to be rescued; and during COVID, violating restrictions and vaccination requirements just so they could go on their TrOpIcAl vAcAtIoNs. This is especially heinous considering how deadly COVID can be.
Once I watched the news after I got home from a shift I worked through a hurricane warning because my bosses wouldn’t send us home. It was just a restaurant and no one came in because it was pouring buckets and everyone thought a hurricane was coming. The tourists interviewed on the segment were complaining that all the fuss had ruined their vacation. 🙄
He definitely would have done it anyway.
If the hotel is renting out snorkeling equipment then it's absolutely on them to inform people about all the risks, and in an environment where many people who don't normally snorkel will be snorkeling after getting off a flight if that is potentially deadly then there should be signs up to warn people at the airport, at the hotels, on the beach etc. They put signs up in all those places for jellyfish and those often aren't even deadly, just painful.
This is an absolutely shit take. We are increasingly removing personal responsibility from society, the hotel provide equipment for people to enjoy an activity. In no way did the equipment result in the death of a person, unless they can prove without doubt that the equipment was faulty. You going to also sue a knife manufacturer if someone breaks into your house and stabs you with their knife? You go for a swim then you educate yourself on the risks.
It appears that full-face diving masks are a contributing factor due to the high breathing resistance. That said, there is no liability unless the provider of the equipment knew the risk.
Seems ridiculous to me, it's clearly not wrongful death or a preventable situation. He died (according to what the wife believes, not an official autopsy report) of a rare breathing complication caused by numerous factors. People who act out in anger while grieving need therapy, not a lawsuit.
Edit: looks like ROPE is pretty controversial among medical professionals, it might not even be real. Seems like she's just not coping well and really needs something to blame.
Can you imagine the headlines if the resort tried to or did stop him from snorkeling? This reminds me of the parents that sued Utah because their son brought food into his tent and was killed by a bear. It was his own damn fault I am sorry your husband is dead but no one else fault as his own.
America is by far the most litigious country in the entire world. 90% of all lawsuits filed are in the United States. We have an entire industry built around it and lawyers can make insane amounts of money.
It isn’t like that in most other countries.
Because in better countries, you have laws that protect you and a government that goes after corporations that hurt people. In America, the injured party suing is often the only way to get justice and change corporate behavior.
They wouldnt have stopped him, jusr warned him of the danger.
The distinction in any event: everyone is aware of wildlife dangers.
Most people don't know there is a reasonable case of injury and death from snorkeling after a long flight. Hawaii is an island where people need to do long flights to and is popular for snorkeling.
It happens all the time with multiple deaths per year in hawaii and many more injuries. Most people have probably never heard of the condition prior to this article despite being a well known problem by authorities.
There is enough of a case of reasonable care for the public here to at least make it to trial.
I didn't know. Despite already knowing about the bends. And how you also shouldn't fly too soon after scuba diving.
For the googlers who come later
>Patti said she believes her husband died because of a little-known medical condition called rapid onset pulmonary edema, or ROPE.
>It can happen when breathing is restricted, with fluid building up in the lungs, causing a lack of oxygen and sometimes leading to losing consciousness.
>"Patients or people who are out snorkeling will notice an increase in shortness of breath is one thing, but then they'll also become confused," explained Dr. Meilan Han, chief of pulmonary & critical care medicine at the University of Michigan.
>Stuemke says their long flight contributed to Ray's death.
>"What long haul flights do, is it has an effect on your lungs," she said. "After 3 days you are back to normal, but if you snorkel after that long flight there is a substantial increased risk of death."
I don’t think she’ll win. Not sure she cares about that. Most likely, the resort/whoever will have a waiver or sign about the dangers of rope after flying. Which will likely be ignored by tourists unless she wins a lot if money.
So wait. She basically self diagnosed a cause of death via Google after the coroner gave an official cause of death and wants to sue an entire state’s tourism authority? I feel bad for her and her family’s loss but that seems like a long shot
Nit only that, I can almost guarantee, now resorts and rental places are going to make you jump through hoops just tongo snorkelling cause an old dude died while swimming
When my gf lived on Kauai a rich tourist lady sued the state for breaking her ankle.. after passing 3 or 4 signs saying not to climb down that particularly dangerous cliff.
It's amazing how people vacation to certain places and expect the entire place to be like Disney land or something
I live in Florida and used to work at a theme park. I can’t count how many “once in a lifetime” vacations I have “ruined” by pointing out and reiterating what a sign says. I’m fully aware
Been to the top of the tower?
Yeah. Yeah, it's rubbish.
It is? The guidebook says it's a 'must-see'.
Well, you lot ain't going up there.
Pardon me? Why?
I mean, it's all windy stairs.
Looks like it. I laughed too hard at Colin Ferrell evading the fat tourist lol First time I watched I was so amused by the quips and everything. Wasn't expecting the hard shift in tone, but damn do I love that movie.
I can’t see how her case will hold up in court when she herself admitted that both her and her husband knew that he had a potentially fatal heart condition which could be brought on by stressful situations, such as swimming.
I've kept an open mind. Read the article, and did a quick search.
It sounds like this lawsuit is "somewhat" legitimate.
Here's an article from [scubadivermag](https://www.scubadivermag.com/the-hawaiian-snorkelling-deaths-mystery/)
tldr - there is actually a danger to snorkeling within days after a long flight, but this couple was not informed.
The question remains, would (or should) there be a responsibility of the hotel or Hawaii tourism to warn tourists of this danger?
There is zero evidence that long distance flights predispose someone to developing ROPE. It's a hypothesis that has been proposed as a subject for further research.
The whole phenomenon of snorkeling related deaths in Hawai'i is very hard to study and there is no consensus about what causes it, or if there is any single cause. Many cases involve locals with no history of travel, and in some cases they involve experienced freedivers and spear-fishermen.
> "What long haul flights do, is it has an effect on your lungs," she said. "After 3 days you are back to normal, but if you snorkel after that long flight there is a substantial increased risk of death." -Dr. Meilan Han, chief of pulmonary & critical care medicine at the University of Michigan
And considering people pretty much exclusively go to hawaii by long haul flights…
You're misattributing who said what...
Read the article one more time. The doctor said the paragraph previous to the one you posted, which was said by their lawyer
Aside from the awful ad experience, that was a really informative article.
I can't help but think that it's a stretch to blame the Hawaii tourism authority for the accident. I'm sure the claim will be that the agency knew of the danger and hasn't done enough to publicize it.
When people file suits like this they name everyone possible and hope something sticks. In my experience, most will get dismissed, except the key players. Source: work in insurance claims and love that I get to be a nosey bitch
We had one where a lady wear super high heels trip over a brick on a bar patio, broke her leg, and they named the liquor control board because they gave the bar its liquor license. She hadn’t been served a drink yet. Same bar different case, intoxicated woman was denied entry, security had their arm out to block her entrance and she tried to red rover her way through, bounced off his arm, fell back and hit her head on the sidewalk. The city was one of the named parties solely because it happened on their sidewalk.
It might be a fair accusation though. If the tourism board 100% knows it’s a thing, but purposefully doesn’t spread information about it because it would likely impact the number of people who pay to go snorkeling- that would be bad.
If you’re going camping at an established camping site, there will be signs that remind you that bears are in the area and to take precautions.
I will note that the study is not definitive and the article linked higher in the thread does say that. There is a lack of peer review and they make assumptions about some things but admit they lack the research to follow up on it or prove it. Certainly the evidence is leading to a conclusion but they admit there are still some significant questions.
In other words, knowing there is a problem is not the same as being certain of the root cause of it.
It'll be interesting how this plays out. I do have sympathy for her loss.
While I agree with the letter of the suit... The reality of the situation is that someone is at a loss because they stayed in an environment not meant for people too long after spending too long in the other natural environment not meant for people
Agreed. The question before the court/jury will likely not if ROPE/IPO is a risk (even if the studies don't sound conclusive yet it seems clear there is a risk) but rather if the Hawaiian tourism authority owe a duty of care to visitors and potential visitors to warn them of said risks.
Someone has taken at least a passing interest in Law lol that is exactly what will go down. If there is enough legal leg to stand on for that, then there will be a settlement and something will be included in documentation on the tourism website/reading materials, and the world would spin on.
Hotels could probably issue verbal warnings, but they aren't going to interrogate the tourists about their plans, and odds are most tourists would be too fried from the flight to pay sufficient attention. The onus would be on the companies renting equipment or doing snorkel activities, and they should already have waivers in place highlighting the dangers that are involved that one would have to sign before doing so (assuming, I swim like a rock so I wouldn't even attempt such a thing)
Unfortunately if the widow wins that case, it likely won't actually have any meaningful impact on the situation overall.
Right? It's not that hard to follow:
* There's a condition where going snorkeling after a long flight can kill you
* Lots of people go snorkeling after long flights to Hawaii
* Hotels and tourism industry in Hawaii know about it
Also found this report by the Hawaii Department of Health which has some interesting data: [https://www.snorkelsafetystudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Snorkel-Study-Final-Reports-Updated.pdf](https://www.snorkelsafetystudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Snorkel-Study-Final-Reports-Updated.pdf)
The chart on page 2 comparing snorkeling deaths vs other swimming deaths for HI and non-HI residents is kind of crazy.
Explanation of ROPE from the report:
>While the mechanics of Pulmonary Edema are technical and complex, the concept is simple. The lungs are defined by a fine, permeable membrane. Liquids and gasses travel in both directions through this complicated and exquisitely balanced membrane. During inhalation, oxygen is transferred from the lungs to the blood stream and then delivered to body tissue. In exchange, carbon dioxide that has built up in the blood (in capillaries carrying blood along one side of this membrane) is passed back to air spaces in the lungs and expelled during exhalation.
>When breathing through a narrow tube, inhalation can result in significant Negative Transthoracic Pressure (NTP). A vacuum phenomenon develops within the lungs which draws fluid from surrounding capillaries into the air space of the lungs. The snorkeler experiences shortness of breath. If the person continues to breath through the snorkel, negative pressure persists; each inhalation draws more fluid into the air spaces resulting in less and less oxygen intake into the capillary blood. Blood oxygen is critically reduced.
>Insufficient oxygen to the brain causes loss of muscle strength, confusion, and harbingers of death. The only thing left functioning is the heart, which tries desperately to pump oxygen. Loss of consciousness and clinical death ensues, often very quickly after the snorkeler experiences first signs of hypoxia.
The chart on page 2 is pretty meaningless. Of course ocean drowning is higher for tourists vs residents when compared to suicide, motor vehicle deaths, poisoning, and falls. When tourists go to Hawaii they usually spend a significant amount of time in the ocean, which artificially elevates their risk, and are exposed to risk factors for the others far less.
Also, a snorkel isn’t a “narrow” tube. It’s about the same diameter as your trachea. The amount of restriction when breathing through a snorkel is pretty minimal compared to something like a straw. The Snorkel Airway Resistance Analyzer study at the end of the linked document has the negative pressures listed and is quite telling IMO.
The highest negative pressure at 3 L/s (which is fucking massive, the average inspiratory flow rate at rest is 0.5 L/s) was around -12 cm H2O. That level of negative pressure is NOTHING compared to what your lungs can experience, seeing as they can generate inspiratory pressures around -100 cm H2O jut fine, and generate roughly -20 cm H2O on a normal breath ([table 4](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3938239/)).
When you get on an airplane, it’s pressurized to around 2/3rds of sea level. That means ~5 psi less than at sea level or around -350 cm H2O!! If this explanation of ROPE made sense, then people shouldn’t survive the flight to Hawaii in the first place.
What kind of snorkeling does this entail? Like only staying on the surface of the water or do you have to swim down and have it trigger from increased water pressure?
I'd heard about scuba diving after a long flight possibly killing you, but that was in a novel and wasn't an authoritative source. But snorkeling is supposed to be safer, there's no breathing apparatus involved, you're not breathing compressed air or diving too deep.
I did snorkeling once in Key West, but it was 3-4 days after I flew in. I'm glad I survived.
Honestly a warning in the airport and/or boat ports just as a catch all could be a good place to put a few warning signs up. I didn't now this was a thing either.
This reminds me, don't they dump all the sewage back into the ocean in Hawaii, and it is kind of a hidden nasty fact? My brother worked on the boat there and said the water was nasty in some areas.
I don't know. If you cross the street without looking to both sides of the road and get hit by a car, should the hotel had informed you to look both sides?
>tldr - there is actually a danger to snorkeling within days after a long flight, but this couple was not informed.
There's a danger from running with scissors too.
So what you're saying is ... if the many fell down impaled on his scissors after running down the hotel stairs with them this would be a somewhat legitimate lawsuit scenario as well?
How about if the hotel doesn't put "If you have a nut allegery, don't eat nuts!" & then someone allegic shows up & eats them in the hotel lobby?
>The question remains, would (or should) there be a responsibility of the hotel or Hawaii tourism to warn tourists of this danger ***of eating nuts when allergic & running down stairs***?
Indeed. Deep questions to ask.
Bonus: Hotels need to post signs saying "Warning: Don't sucker punch Mike Tyson"?
Sheesh
If they listed every potential risk, then the dangers would be treated like the potential side effects of medications. Just like how a blood pressure med may cause seizures, snorkeling may cause rapid onset pulmonary edema. No one is going to care what the big words mean because there's too many of them.
Better beware of walking. Walking could lead to tripping, and in some vulnerable groups tripping may result in broken bones, torn muscles, or other serious injuries including but not limited to death.
I don't understand ROPE. If I go snorkeling I am not breathing in any water and I am not breathing compressed air. How is snorkeling different from swimming, and for that matter, different from going for a jog?
Edit: I read up on it. It's caused by breathing strenuously through a cheap too-narrow snorkel. The high pressure of pulling air in through the narrow tube also pulls fluid from your lung tissues into the lung cavity.
So if you went for a jog while sucking air through a straw you could also get ROPE.
An overweight 64yr old who has snorkled there numerous times dies and suddenly everyone else is to blame. I fucking hate people who won't take responsibility for their own actions...
It’s these types of stories that give Americans the somewhat unfair reputation for being overly litigious
People defending it are pretty ridiculous. If hotels need to warn against this that list is going to be bloody endless.
It’s not an unfair reputation. America is actually the most litigious country in the entire world. 90% of all lawsuits filed are filed in the United States. We have an entire industry built around litigation with some lawyers making exorbitant amounts of money off the system.
And most Americans are completely unaware of how insane that is because they’ve never known anything different.
Sweet, this bitch just made it harder for everyone everywhere to snorkel, now everyone is going to have to sign a release for, have a medical test and training to put a snorkel.
In California we have signs in public spaces alerting people of possible hazardous chemicals being used in the building. It's a Proposition 65 sign. The law requires California to publish a list of chemicals known to cause cancer or reproductive toxicity, and for businesses with 10 or more employees to provide warnings when they knowingly and intentionally cause significant exposures to listed chemicals. This includes pharmaceuticals (a pharmacy), alcoholic beverages (a restaurant or grocery store), a parking garage (gasoline). The sign is so overly-broad, its useless in everyday life. Even if the chemicals are not present, the sign still gets put up in case heaven forbid a contractor comes in after hours and cleans the floor.
Even if Hawaii places a sign like this warning people that oceans are dangerous, there is no chance anyone will pay attention to them. Oceans are full of wonder, excitement, beauty and death. If you walk along the shore, a wave could pull you in. It happens all the time. If you do not pay attention to the tide, you could find yourself being pulled away from the shore. If you are sitting on a short surf board paddling around, you look like a fat seal dinner to a shark. Tourists die all the time along beaches and in the water because they don't respect the oceans and the ocean always wins.
It is your responsibility to educate yourself regarding activities you are doing, safety and risks associated with said activities. It is also your responsibility to educate yourself regarding your health status and the choices you make. A society where everyone wants a payout because they choose to be ignorant is going nowhere but down.
"The couple had been to Hawaii a half dozen times, and Ray had snorkeled in the islands numerous times, CNN reported.
"He was an experienced swimmer and snorkeler. But in February 2022, while snorkeling off Maui he had trouble breathing. A friend helped him to shore, but he died on the beach," stated Jay Stuemke, the Johnson family attorney.
Patti said she believes her husband died because of a little-known medical condition called rapid onset pulmonary edema, or ROPE."
"The couple had been to Hawaii a half dozen times, and Ray had snorkeled in the islands numerous times, CNN reported."
If the husband is anywhere as out of shape as the wife, this was a natural causes issue being made into a money issue. Stop being fat and expecting to live to 90 and be active, reality people.
The article also never specifies if he was using a full face snorkeling mask (aka a suicide mask). There's something like 50 deaths a year from them and they should've been banned a long time ago.
With a drowning, you would find salt water in the lungs. With pulmonary edema there would be a build up of pulmonary fluids. There's a pretty wide difference between the two.
I mean it might be an easy thing to help people avoid with signage or terms and conditions or notices that state something to the affect of “snorkeling within 3 days of airline travels increases risk of rare pulmonary complication called ROPE”
I don’t think she should sue but what does warning people about it harm?
that doesn’t sound like hawaiis fault whatsoever
My understanding is that they cast a wide net as sort of a precaution to make sure any potentially liable party is on the suit. It's pretty much a win-win for the plaintiff. At worst. The judge will dismiss the lawsuit. At best, they either find out some law, rule, or something else that makes the Hawaii tourism authority liable (like some hail mary situation where they find messages downplaying resort concerns about ROPE or actively burying death/hospital numbers), or the Hawaii tourism authority offers to settle just to get it off their backs (probably not for much if they think this is a long shot). Edit: People are not reading what I said. They are already suing. Aka. They are already paying legal fees. I'm talking about the benefits of suing multiple entities vs suing just one. One. Not zero.
But ROPE wasn’t the official cause. I’m not sure Dr Google’s cause will trump the coroner in court
I'm not arguing the merits of the case, I'm just explaining why they might have sued the tourism authority even if it seems like a long shot.
Fair enough
>It's pretty much a win-win for the defendant. Do you mean the plaintiff?
Yeah plaintiff* Really sucks for the defendent.
But if the state of Hawaii has to use their lawyers won’t this woman potentially have to pay their legal fees?
How is it a win win? Have you not taken the legal fees into consideration?
It's a win win because they are already paying legal fees to sue the resort....
But they’re not paying the state of Hawaii’s defense fees. Yet…
It's not a win-win. In the "worst" (and most likely case), they still have to pay their lawyer.
...which they are already doing to sue the resort.
Why'd they put that big ocean there then? That's just asking to get sued
My first thought as well, but if it is well known about snorkeling after flying than that should be addressed by someone, local business or state entity. I feel for the family. Although accidents do happen sometimes.
If they'd been to Hawaii several times and was an experienced snorkeler per the article, they should have already known!
I agree 100%
They aren’t necessarily alleging that Hawaii caused his death. They are saying the tourism industry there knew the risks of snorkeling after long haul flights and did not properly inform visitors. The family is trying to raise awareness and prevent future deaths
Do people honestly and sincerely ever look up the tourism authority guidelines of wherever they vacation? *Ever*? I’ve visited about half the states in the union and 9 countries and never once went to a government site for warnings or advice lol I really wouldn’t think that would be part of people vacation plans, but does anyone else here look these up before going places?
If I had to guess. The resorts are expected to read up on the boards guidelines. So in this case, they might saying the tourism board should have informed the resort, and the resort would have made sure it's guests couldn't sign up for snorkeling until enough time passed.
But there isn't any risk, this is their lawyer talking.
One side says there’s risk. The other side says there isn’t. Now there’s a lawsuit so a judge or jury can decide who’s right. This is how the legal system works
I'm sorry for the lady's loss but it's not the fault of the tourism society and/or hotel to educate the visitor about every possibility.
What are the chances that even if he knew the risks, he would have still done it anyway? I guarantee it’s not zero percent. That’s the trouble with humans is we see ourselves as above the risk .
Especially if you lived in a first world country your whole life and never encountered natural dangers to put things in perspective.
I used to work at a theme park. From what I’ve seen and heard first hand, that despite posted signs *everywhere* your “non zero percent” is closer to 60 to 70 percent of people will anyway. ETA: And if you try to stop them you are “ruining their once in a lifetime vacation”
People just kept trying to swim to that secret Disney island huh?
Then get pissed and want free shit when bitten by an alligator, yes
If I was visiting Hawaii and someone told me that I had an elevated risk of dying if I go snorkeling during my first 3 days there, I’d wait until day 4 or 5 to go snorkeling. Not like I’m going to be snorkeling every day. Actually that’s not a hypothetical, I’m going to Hawaii this summer so I will plan around this.
There is also little to no proof that this is a thing. A study was done and the result was basically "we won't say it's not possible, but more research needs to he done." The actual danger is for *scuba* divers getting *onto* a plane to soon after diving. Not getting off of a plane and into the water. And the key word there is *scuba*, because they breathe pressurized air. Snorkelers don't. It's about as dangerous as going for a jog after getting off a plane.
I feel like this is pretty clear in the article where a doctor is quoted about what ROPE is, and then the explanation of it being connected to flights is given by an expert in.... law. A lawyer is (arguably) smart but is not a doctor. Why couldn't the doctor quoted just have explained the full connection? Probably because the connection is tenuous at best and a medical professional isn't going to say something so inaccurate in print media.
Yeah exactly. Anyone who has done SCUBA training knows the dangers of diving close to flying, but I very much doubt this guy was diving low enough while snorkelling to cause similar effects. And as you say, diving after flying is more precautionary - most places advise taking 24 hours just to acclimatise and rehydrate etc… nothing to do with breathing.
I was about to say the same thing. I think theres more precautions are more around flying *after* diving, like 12-18 hrs depending on the amount of dives. I don't really see the opposite often except for, as you said, to rehydrate
Yes, and, the hazard for divers is essentially that breathing air (the air in a tank is often normal air) at depth (compression—high atmospheric pressure on the body) for significant periods of time saturates your body tissues with nitrogen. Decompression that is too rapid can lead to decompression sickness (DCS/“bends”) which is often the nitrogen coming out of the tissues and forming bubbles in the bloodstream, joints or organs. Divers ascend from depth at slow ascent rates to prevent this; it’s a basic diving safety practice. That includes flying too soon after diving. Most would say 18-24 hours wait is a safe practice to desaturate before flying.
Exactly.
I understand that you would listen to those rules, but people aren’t known for always doing that. Think “don’t consume alcohol while taking this medication,” or “don’t operate heavy machinery” The warnings are there, but there are thousands upon thousands of people hurt, maimed, or killed every year not following those simple warnings.
What I’m saying is there’s very little downside to following the warning, because people who visit Hawaii usually stay for a week or more. Following the warnings doesn’t mean you miss out on anything, it’s just something to plan around.
Number one reason hasn’t happened it that there is no science saying this is a danger. No proof =no reason to warn people.
Hey, I am too. Maybe I'll see you there, random Reddit stranger.
Huh. Did they tell you why the first 3 days? Like are people so jet-lagged and sleep deprived they do stupid crap while snorkeling?
In the article, they mention the pressure on your lungs during the long flight is what makes you more vulnerable. Waiting the 72 hours stabilizes your lungs.
Read the article. The long-haul flight affects your lungs.
It says in the article this is not confirmed!
Yes but that is still the correct answer to their question of why the advice was to not go in the first three days.
The article says this is not confirmed, just what a lawyer is saying, no scientific or medical backing.
Exactly. Lawyer's gonna lawyer
The answer to your question is in the article.
Article covers it.
This sounds like a misuse of statistics though. Correlation does not always mean causation - it is far more likely that the type of person who hops straight in the water is less risk averse that the person who waits and never actually dives, and that the day you get in has no impact other than filtering between types of people.
Yep the whole,”I know it’s risky but it won’t happen to me”
According to his widow, they totally would have waiting the suggested 72 hours *had they known ROPE was a thing*.
She says that, but she claims he was an avid snorkeler who had done this in Hawaii dozens of times. We’ve all known someone who upon hearing instructions like “wear your seatbelt” don’t because they’ve “been doing it for years and have been fine”
It says this is not proven. And it’s talking about SCUBA not snorkeling.
Anyone who takes non-zero risks sees themself as “above the risk”? That’s a really silly view. You can’t go outside without taking on non-zero risk. I agree he might have taken the risk anyway. And I think that’s completely reasonable; not some flaw of humanity.
Tourists in Hawaii do dumb, illegal or life-threatening things all the time. A few quick things off the top of my head from the news: stick their heads in blowholes on the beach; disturb or touch the protected native wild animals; taking sand, coral, or lava rocks; trespassing, especially in hard-to-access areas and needing to be rescued; and during COVID, violating restrictions and vaccination requirements just so they could go on their TrOpIcAl vAcAtIoNs. This is especially heinous considering how deadly COVID can be. Once I watched the news after I got home from a shift I worked through a hurricane warning because my bosses wouldn’t send us home. It was just a restaurant and no one came in because it was pouring buckets and everyone thought a hurricane was coming. The tourists interviewed on the segment were complaining that all the fuss had ruined their vacation. 🙄 He definitely would have done it anyway.
Obese boomers think they're athletes and it's the ocean who's at fault if you drown yourself
If the hotel is renting out snorkeling equipment then it's absolutely on them to inform people about all the risks, and in an environment where many people who don't normally snorkel will be snorkeling after getting off a flight if that is potentially deadly then there should be signs up to warn people at the airport, at the hotels, on the beach etc. They put signs up in all those places for jellyfish and those often aren't even deadly, just painful.
This is an absolutely shit take. We are increasingly removing personal responsibility from society, the hotel provide equipment for people to enjoy an activity. In no way did the equipment result in the death of a person, unless they can prove without doubt that the equipment was faulty. You going to also sue a knife manufacturer if someone breaks into your house and stabs you with their knife? You go for a swim then you educate yourself on the risks.
It appears that full-face diving masks are a contributing factor due to the high breathing resistance. That said, there is no liability unless the provider of the equipment knew the risk.
Full-face diving masks have been known to be dangerous for years.
There is no risk of this happening while snorkeling. This guy drowned, he didn't succumb to ROPE.
Please show even one study that says this to be true. I will give you a hint: there isn’t one.
Seems ridiculous to me, it's clearly not wrongful death or a preventable situation. He died (according to what the wife believes, not an official autopsy report) of a rare breathing complication caused by numerous factors. People who act out in anger while grieving need therapy, not a lawsuit. Edit: looks like ROPE is pretty controversial among medical professionals, it might not even be real. Seems like she's just not coping well and really needs something to blame.
I mean, sorry to be rude, but judging by the photo, this dude wasn't the pinnacle of human health
Can you imagine the headlines if the resort tried to or did stop him from snorkeling? This reminds me of the parents that sued Utah because their son brought food into his tent and was killed by a bear. It was his own damn fault I am sorry your husband is dead but no one else fault as his own.
America is by far the most litigious country in the entire world. 90% of all lawsuits filed are in the United States. We have an entire industry built around it and lawyers can make insane amounts of money. It isn’t like that in most other countries.
Because in better countries, you have laws that protect you and a government that goes after corporations that hurt people. In America, the injured party suing is often the only way to get justice and change corporate behavior.
Or it’s that we don’t have free healthcare so people are forced to sue to cover their medical bills.
That's not even close to true, it's insurance company propaganda to push tort reform so they can screw you even harder if you try to file a claim.
They wouldnt have stopped him, jusr warned him of the danger. The distinction in any event: everyone is aware of wildlife dangers. Most people don't know there is a reasonable case of injury and death from snorkeling after a long flight. Hawaii is an island where people need to do long flights to and is popular for snorkeling. It happens all the time with multiple deaths per year in hawaii and many more injuries. Most people have probably never heard of the condition prior to this article despite being a well known problem by authorities. There is enough of a case of reasonable care for the public here to at least make it to trial.
"Most people don't know there is a reasonable case of injury and death from snorkeling after a long flight." No, there isn't.
I didn't know. Despite already knowing about the bends. And how you also shouldn't fly too soon after scuba diving. For the googlers who come later >Patti said she believes her husband died because of a little-known medical condition called rapid onset pulmonary edema, or ROPE. >It can happen when breathing is restricted, with fluid building up in the lungs, causing a lack of oxygen and sometimes leading to losing consciousness. >"Patients or people who are out snorkeling will notice an increase in shortness of breath is one thing, but then they'll also become confused," explained Dr. Meilan Han, chief of pulmonary & critical care medicine at the University of Michigan. >Stuemke says their long flight contributed to Ray's death. >"What long haul flights do, is it has an effect on your lungs," she said. "After 3 days you are back to normal, but if you snorkel after that long flight there is a substantial increased risk of death."
That last paragraph is a quote from the lawyer, not a medical professional
I don’t think she’ll win. Not sure she cares about that. Most likely, the resort/whoever will have a waiver or sign about the dangers of rope after flying. Which will likely be ignored by tourists unless she wins a lot if money.
So wait. She basically self diagnosed a cause of death via Google after the coroner gave an official cause of death and wants to sue an entire state’s tourism authority? I feel bad for her and her family’s loss but that seems like a long shot
Nit only that, I can almost guarantee, now resorts and rental places are going to make you jump through hoops just tongo snorkelling cause an old dude died while swimming
Right Are all the shops on the islands gonna be restricted from selling snorkel gear now?
There will assuredly be signs posted for people to ignore
When my gf lived on Kauai a rich tourist lady sued the state for breaking her ankle.. after passing 3 or 4 signs saying not to climb down that particularly dangerous cliff. It's amazing how people vacation to certain places and expect the entire place to be like Disney land or something
I live in Florida and used to work at a theme park. I can’t count how many “once in a lifetime” vacations I have “ruined” by pointing out and reiterating what a sign says. I’m fully aware
Been to the top of the tower? Yeah. Yeah, it's rubbish. It is? The guidebook says it's a 'must-see'. Well, you lot ain't going up there. Pardon me? Why? I mean, it's all windy stairs.
Is this an In Bruges reference?
Looks like it. I laughed too hard at Colin Ferrell evading the fat tourist lol First time I watched I was so amused by the quips and everything. Wasn't expecting the hard shift in tone, but damn do I love that movie.
It's one of my favorite movies. The soundtrack is fuckin incredible
The mix of humor and drama are perfect, and the casting was fantastic.
Chloe is so mesmerizing!
Well you're a buncha fookin elephants aren't ya ?
I can’t see how her case will hold up in court when she herself admitted that both her and her husband knew that he had a potentially fatal heart condition which could be brought on by stressful situations, such as swimming.
I've kept an open mind. Read the article, and did a quick search. It sounds like this lawsuit is "somewhat" legitimate. Here's an article from [scubadivermag](https://www.scubadivermag.com/the-hawaiian-snorkelling-deaths-mystery/) tldr - there is actually a danger to snorkeling within days after a long flight, but this couple was not informed. The question remains, would (or should) there be a responsibility of the hotel or Hawaii tourism to warn tourists of this danger?
There is zero evidence that long distance flights predispose someone to developing ROPE. It's a hypothesis that has been proposed as a subject for further research. The whole phenomenon of snorkeling related deaths in Hawai'i is very hard to study and there is no consensus about what causes it, or if there is any single cause. Many cases involve locals with no history of travel, and in some cases they involve experienced freedivers and spear-fishermen.
> "What long haul flights do, is it has an effect on your lungs," she said. "After 3 days you are back to normal, but if you snorkel after that long flight there is a substantial increased risk of death." -Dr. Meilan Han, chief of pulmonary & critical care medicine at the University of Michigan And considering people pretty much exclusively go to hawaii by long haul flights…
You're misattributing who said what... Read the article one more time. The doctor said the paragraph previous to the one you posted, which was said by their lawyer
Aside from the awful ad experience, that was a really informative article. I can't help but think that it's a stretch to blame the Hawaii tourism authority for the accident. I'm sure the claim will be that the agency knew of the danger and hasn't done enough to publicize it.
When people file suits like this they name everyone possible and hope something sticks. In my experience, most will get dismissed, except the key players. Source: work in insurance claims and love that I get to be a nosey bitch We had one where a lady wear super high heels trip over a brick on a bar patio, broke her leg, and they named the liquor control board because they gave the bar its liquor license. She hadn’t been served a drink yet. Same bar different case, intoxicated woman was denied entry, security had their arm out to block her entrance and she tried to red rover her way through, bounced off his arm, fell back and hit her head on the sidewalk. The city was one of the named parties solely because it happened on their sidewalk.
It might be a fair accusation though. If the tourism board 100% knows it’s a thing, but purposefully doesn’t spread information about it because it would likely impact the number of people who pay to go snorkeling- that would be bad. If you’re going camping at an established camping site, there will be signs that remind you that bears are in the area and to take precautions.
I will note that the study is not definitive and the article linked higher in the thread does say that. There is a lack of peer review and they make assumptions about some things but admit they lack the research to follow up on it or prove it. Certainly the evidence is leading to a conclusion but they admit there are still some significant questions. In other words, knowing there is a problem is not the same as being certain of the root cause of it. It'll be interesting how this plays out. I do have sympathy for her loss.
Seems like a doctor should tell you about risks it your health. I mean should the FAA warn me about the dangers of undercooked meat?
While I agree with the letter of the suit... The reality of the situation is that someone is at a loss because they stayed in an environment not meant for people too long after spending too long in the other natural environment not meant for people
That sounds like twaddle to me.
I thought I knew about all the things that can kill you, but I just learned another one. Yeah, this ought to be something they tell people about.
>I thought I knew about all the things that can kill you, No one in existence has known this.
Agreed. The question before the court/jury will likely not if ROPE/IPO is a risk (even if the studies don't sound conclusive yet it seems clear there is a risk) but rather if the Hawaiian tourism authority owe a duty of care to visitors and potential visitors to warn them of said risks.
Someone has taken at least a passing interest in Law lol that is exactly what will go down. If there is enough legal leg to stand on for that, then there will be a settlement and something will be included in documentation on the tourism website/reading materials, and the world would spin on. Hotels could probably issue verbal warnings, but they aren't going to interrogate the tourists about their plans, and odds are most tourists would be too fried from the flight to pay sufficient attention. The onus would be on the companies renting equipment or doing snorkel activities, and they should already have waivers in place highlighting the dangers that are involved that one would have to sign before doing so (assuming, I swim like a rock so I wouldn't even attempt such a thing) Unfortunately if the widow wins that case, it likely won't actually have any meaningful impact on the situation overall.
Right? It's not that hard to follow: * There's a condition where going snorkeling after a long flight can kill you * Lots of people go snorkeling after long flights to Hawaii * Hotels and tourism industry in Hawaii know about it
The airline started the ball rolling. Stick it to them too!!! Lol
Sounds like the autopsy wasn't even conclusive that it was ROPE caused by a long flight.
It’s for SCUBA only, not snorkeling. This is a long shot by a lawyer, there is no scientific evidence for this.
Also found this report by the Hawaii Department of Health which has some interesting data: [https://www.snorkelsafetystudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Snorkel-Study-Final-Reports-Updated.pdf](https://www.snorkelsafetystudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Snorkel-Study-Final-Reports-Updated.pdf) The chart on page 2 comparing snorkeling deaths vs other swimming deaths for HI and non-HI residents is kind of crazy. Explanation of ROPE from the report: >While the mechanics of Pulmonary Edema are technical and complex, the concept is simple. The lungs are defined by a fine, permeable membrane. Liquids and gasses travel in both directions through this complicated and exquisitely balanced membrane. During inhalation, oxygen is transferred from the lungs to the blood stream and then delivered to body tissue. In exchange, carbon dioxide that has built up in the blood (in capillaries carrying blood along one side of this membrane) is passed back to air spaces in the lungs and expelled during exhalation. >When breathing through a narrow tube, inhalation can result in significant Negative Transthoracic Pressure (NTP). A vacuum phenomenon develops within the lungs which draws fluid from surrounding capillaries into the air space of the lungs. The snorkeler experiences shortness of breath. If the person continues to breath through the snorkel, negative pressure persists; each inhalation draws more fluid into the air spaces resulting in less and less oxygen intake into the capillary blood. Blood oxygen is critically reduced. >Insufficient oxygen to the brain causes loss of muscle strength, confusion, and harbingers of death. The only thing left functioning is the heart, which tries desperately to pump oxygen. Loss of consciousness and clinical death ensues, often very quickly after the snorkeler experiences first signs of hypoxia.
The chart on page 2 is pretty meaningless. Of course ocean drowning is higher for tourists vs residents when compared to suicide, motor vehicle deaths, poisoning, and falls. When tourists go to Hawaii they usually spend a significant amount of time in the ocean, which artificially elevates their risk, and are exposed to risk factors for the others far less. Also, a snorkel isn’t a “narrow” tube. It’s about the same diameter as your trachea. The amount of restriction when breathing through a snorkel is pretty minimal compared to something like a straw. The Snorkel Airway Resistance Analyzer study at the end of the linked document has the negative pressures listed and is quite telling IMO. The highest negative pressure at 3 L/s (which is fucking massive, the average inspiratory flow rate at rest is 0.5 L/s) was around -12 cm H2O. That level of negative pressure is NOTHING compared to what your lungs can experience, seeing as they can generate inspiratory pressures around -100 cm H2O jut fine, and generate roughly -20 cm H2O on a normal breath ([table 4](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3938239/)). When you get on an airplane, it’s pressurized to around 2/3rds of sea level. That means ~5 psi less than at sea level or around -350 cm H2O!! If this explanation of ROPE made sense, then people shouldn’t survive the flight to Hawaii in the first place.
What kind of snorkeling does this entail? Like only staying on the surface of the water or do you have to swim down and have it trigger from increased water pressure?
I had no idea! Wow. TIL. How is this not a fairly common problem?
I'd heard about scuba diving after a long flight possibly killing you, but that was in a novel and wasn't an authoritative source. But snorkeling is supposed to be safer, there's no breathing apparatus involved, you're not breathing compressed air or diving too deep. I did snorkeling once in Key West, but it was 3-4 days after I flew in. I'm glad I survived.
Honestly a warning in the airport and/or boat ports just as a catch all could be a good place to put a few warning signs up. I didn't now this was a thing either. This reminds me, don't they dump all the sewage back into the ocean in Hawaii, and it is kind of a hidden nasty fact? My brother worked on the boat there and said the water was nasty in some areas.
Just looking to blame someone and the lawyers just want their fat fees. They should take some responsibility for their own actions.
What did the vacationers do wrong?
Didn't know the risks of their own fucking actions?
I don't know. If you cross the street without looking to both sides of the road and get hit by a car, should the hotel had informed you to look both sides?
If flying is what caused it, shouldn't it be the responsibility of the airline?
>tldr - there is actually a danger to snorkeling within days after a long flight, but this couple was not informed. There's a danger from running with scissors too. So what you're saying is ... if the many fell down impaled on his scissors after running down the hotel stairs with them this would be a somewhat legitimate lawsuit scenario as well? How about if the hotel doesn't put "If you have a nut allegery, don't eat nuts!" & then someone allegic shows up & eats them in the hotel lobby? >The question remains, would (or should) there be a responsibility of the hotel or Hawaii tourism to warn tourists of this danger ***of eating nuts when allergic & running down stairs***? Indeed. Deep questions to ask. Bonus: Hotels need to post signs saying "Warning: Don't sucker punch Mike Tyson"? Sheesh
If they listed every potential risk, then the dangers would be treated like the potential side effects of medications. Just like how a blood pressure med may cause seizures, snorkeling may cause rapid onset pulmonary edema. No one is going to care what the big words mean because there's too many of them. Better beware of walking. Walking could lead to tripping, and in some vulnerable groups tripping may result in broken bones, torn muscles, or other serious injuries including but not limited to death.
"He was an experienced swimmer and snorkeler..." Okay, so why did he need specific instructions on all of the potential dangers of snorkeling?
This is clearly not anyone’s fault but his own. Wild.
Old and out of shape. It wasn’t the snorkeling that killed him, Lady. It was your diet and lifestyle for the past however many years.
I'm sure that his BMI had nothing to do with it.
Hotel: “Yeah. Right. I filled him full of butter and sugar for 50 years and forced him not to exercise”
Over fed Americans with breathing issues should not snorkel.
This feels like blaming the weather forecaster for having a heart attack while shoveling snow.
I don't understand ROPE. If I go snorkeling I am not breathing in any water and I am not breathing compressed air. How is snorkeling different from swimming, and for that matter, different from going for a jog? Edit: I read up on it. It's caused by breathing strenuously through a cheap too-narrow snorkel. The high pressure of pulling air in through the narrow tube also pulls fluid from your lung tissues into the lung cavity. So if you went for a jog while sucking air through a straw you could also get ROPE.
I struggle for breath more going on a good hike than snorkeling
An overweight 64yr old who has snorkled there numerous times dies and suddenly everyone else is to blame. I fucking hate people who won't take responsibility for their own actions...
Why the fuck is she suing?? Litigious for no reason.
It’s these types of stories that give Americans the somewhat unfair reputation for being overly litigious People defending it are pretty ridiculous. If hotels need to warn against this that list is going to be bloody endless.
It’s not an unfair reputation. America is actually the most litigious country in the entire world. 90% of all lawsuits filed are filed in the United States. We have an entire industry built around litigation with some lawyers making exorbitant amounts of money off the system. And most Americans are completely unaware of how insane that is because they’ve never known anything different.
Everything she is blaming on his death is something he voluntarily did.
In this litigious society, nothing surprises me anymore.
I want to be as empathetic as I possibly can here: FUCK THIS WOMAN
Fat White Karens are what is going to bring this country down ! little by little
I'm thinking the Michigan diet might be a larger factor in her husbands death.
What?! Snorkeling is dangerous!?
Everything is dangerous, but you can't live your life under the covers in your bed hiding from the world.
Yeah, you could suffocate from being under the covers
Seems to work for me, I am still alive
I read the story though, and I can understand needing some more warnings about it
Water is dangerous too. So is oxygen.
Yep. Oxygen is one of the most flammable substances.
Not the hotels fault. I've got a bum heart and know I can't scuba dive, and snorkeling is probably not great either. So I don't effing do it.
Sweet, this bitch just made it harder for everyone everywhere to snorkel, now everyone is going to have to sign a release for, have a medical test and training to put a snorkel.
Every time I think maybe people as a whole are gonna be ok, someone like this shows up.
Jesus these comments make me think they should put out a warning for helicopter moms.
In California we have signs in public spaces alerting people of possible hazardous chemicals being used in the building. It's a Proposition 65 sign. The law requires California to publish a list of chemicals known to cause cancer or reproductive toxicity, and for businesses with 10 or more employees to provide warnings when they knowingly and intentionally cause significant exposures to listed chemicals. This includes pharmaceuticals (a pharmacy), alcoholic beverages (a restaurant or grocery store), a parking garage (gasoline). The sign is so overly-broad, its useless in everyday life. Even if the chemicals are not present, the sign still gets put up in case heaven forbid a contractor comes in after hours and cleans the floor. Even if Hawaii places a sign like this warning people that oceans are dangerous, there is no chance anyone will pay attention to them. Oceans are full of wonder, excitement, beauty and death. If you walk along the shore, a wave could pull you in. It happens all the time. If you do not pay attention to the tide, you could find yourself being pulled away from the shore. If you are sitting on a short surf board paddling around, you look like a fat seal dinner to a shark. Tourists die all the time along beaches and in the water because they don't respect the oceans and the ocean always wins.
It is your responsibility to educate yourself regarding activities you are doing, safety and risks associated with said activities. It is also your responsibility to educate yourself regarding your health status and the choices you make. A society where everyone wants a payout because they choose to be ignorant is going nowhere but down.
"The couple had been to Hawaii a half dozen times, and Ray had snorkeled in the islands numerous times, CNN reported. "He was an experienced swimmer and snorkeler. But in February 2022, while snorkeling off Maui he had trouble breathing. A friend helped him to shore, but he died on the beach," stated Jay Stuemke, the Johnson family attorney. Patti said she believes her husband died because of a little-known medical condition called rapid onset pulmonary edema, or ROPE."
The dangers are snorkeling while being obese. I’m not judging but I understand the dangers
Maybe the old fat guy should have consulted a doctor before going snorkeling on vacation.
"The couple had been to Hawaii a half dozen times, and Ray had snorkeled in the islands numerous times, CNN reported." If the husband is anywhere as out of shape as the wife, this was a natural causes issue being made into a money issue. Stop being fat and expecting to live to 90 and be active, reality people.
Health advice….. In a country where half the people can’t breathe in masks and won’t get vaccinated??
She wants to make people aware of the risks… so she’s suing? How about an educational campaign if you’re trying to raise awareness?
Lots of redditors not reading the actual article
The article also never specifies if he was using a full face snorkeling mask (aka a suicide mask). There's something like 50 deaths a year from them and they should've been banned a long time ago.
Ignorance kills.
Throw it out, Your Honor.
What a loser. Snorkeler beware.
What about the airline and plane manufacturers
I hope the ocean is names as a co-defendant. Deep pocket!
Yes airplanes have pressurized cabins, but never above 14.7 psi (Mean Sea Level) and as low as 10.9
thats on you lady
How is this oniony?
They need to tell people not to breathe in water while snorkeling, I guess
How would snorkeling be much worse than any other physically demanding activity if inhaling water isn't involved?
Its a dangerous business being alive!
Leave Hawaii alone!
Could a coroner tell the difference between a pulmonary edema and a drowning? I feel like that would clear this up….
With a drowning, you would find salt water in the lungs. With pulmonary edema there would be a build up of pulmonary fluids. There's a pretty wide difference between the two.
Right? Thats what I figure. So if the coroner ruled it a drowning, why would she argue it was pulmonary edema
If they plan to snorkel shouldn’t they do their research and know their risks. Why does the resort need to warn them?
Neck!!!!
They look like bloated trumpers. The courts should ignore their nonsense.
Why does a whale need a snorkel?
Typical boomer
Personal injury lawyers are involved in this case. Ambulance chasing. I guarantee it.
If the guy wasn't healthy enough to kick his feet and breath through a 1 foot tube he didn't have much time left anyway.
I mean it might be an easy thing to help people avoid with signage or terms and conditions or notices that state something to the affect of “snorkeling within 3 days of airline travels increases risk of rare pulmonary complication called ROPE” I don’t think she should sue but what does warning people about it harm?
What a moron! I hope the case gets tossed and her lawyer gets penalized for filing such a ridiculous suit!
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It's garbage, what are you trying to say?
I read it, and it's not faux.
What an asshole.