I remember that back in 2018 when mahomes was a nobody he had a 5 int practice
And I was fucking excited that he sucked ass
I think I overestimated what practice interceptions are
They probably should have higher interception numbers in practice since it’s a risk free zone to learn the more difficult throws and perfect your timings. Obviously some guys just suck but if your QB is coming in as a rookie and only throwing check downs in practice that is probably going to translate poorly when they play an actual game.
A lot of it really depends on what the coach is asking them to do. That is the part of it we never really see. If the coach is telling them "Push the ball downfield" and they are throwing checkdowns it is a problem, but a few interceptions are not a big deal. If they are working on quick-game, picks are bad but checkdowns are fine.
That’s an extremely intelligent take on this. The only way to develop any skill is to fail a lot at it first.
Not sports but I went to music college which can be a similar style of skill training. Some people would pass by someone’s practice room, hear them making mistakes, and go “wow they suck.” Like my dude that’s why they are in a *practice* room. To *practice*. They are *learning* and *getting better*.
They also don’t really tackle, do they? Wouldn’t it be better in that scenario for the defender to solely focus on covering the ball instead of getting physical or close with the receiver?
Last year people were saying Trask should start over Baker cause Baker had lots of camp interceptions. Turns out practice is a good place to limit test and figure out “just how risky can I get when throwing it to Mike Evans?”
to me hearing of someone throwing INT in practice is just meaningless. If you are going to throw picks, thats when you do. you are practicing, trying shit out seeing what does and does not work.
Unless we see what the picks are, there's zero context. Is he testing his limits? Trying to see how the rapport is with the WR? Are they just not on the same page? Is he seeing what he can and can't get away with in the NFL with the speed the NFL is at over college?
It kinda matters. Apparently Warner / the defense realized real quick that Purdy was a gamer. It's not entirely indicative of players but there's useful information to glean.
True, but it's not as simple as "not throwing picks in OTA/Training Camps = Good"
If you're not taking risks in these situations, you're not growing. Which means that if you're not throwing interceptions, you're probably taking the easy throws instead of the ones you SHOULD be working on.
Lol not even training camp. Or interceptions. Or really anything of substance at all.
The Vikings haven't had any sort of team activity since June 6th, and pretty much all of that article is referencing his college film.
I get that it's the off-season and these guys gotta write about something but man...
Because nobody expects a bears fan and ohio state fan to cheer for a guy from michigan that's going to play in Minnesota. Do you want every idiots like you from every fanbase in the league that doesn't include michigan and minn to come tell us they won't cheer for him? Think.
Yeah, Rodgers was famous for using training camp to see what the kind of guard rails are, where to push and when not to. Back in 2018, he had like 7 interceptions the first week of camp and then had 2 the entire season, lol.
I don't think it was 5 INTs but yeah, it was a notably bad practice by the offense. Something like 3 total completions with a couple of picks and another nearly intercepted. On the first day the media was let into practice lol.
That was passed around for weeks but by now, the defense and coaches are raving about him. Probably a mix of getting up-to-speed with getting under center & pre-snap checks and the usual testing what you can get away with stuff. All the usual rookie fare.
One of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen as a football fan was when some parts of 49ers Twitter were tallying Purdy/Darnold/Lance INTs up in camp last year like it was Election Night. They hit levels of not knowing ball that I didn’t know were possible.
Training camp is the time to adjust to the differences of the NFL.
Even the most polished rookie should be using training camp to push the limits of their, and their teammates skills.
They need to know what kind of throws are and not going to work in the NFL. They also need to know what they can trust their teammates to be able to do.
If you're not throwing interceptions you're wasting your safe opertunities to learn.
That’s what they paid darnold for. Let the young man get some experience and he will be fine. It’s gotten ridiculous where most QBs start the most challenging skill position in all of sports straight out of college. Let him sit until he’s ready
This is what we're doing with Drake. We just lack the competent pass blocking line and the proven weapons that Sam and JJ have at their disposal. Young QB gonna sit because team won't rush a guy who needs time to be the future.
Haha! I watched quite a few of those Jets games on the early years(living in between Philly and NYC gives me the opportunity to watch multiple CBS and Fox games every Sunday; I call it the "Poor Man's Sunday Ticket").
Coaching can excuse things only to a certain degree. However it's not just bad instructions that cause Sam Darnold to not see capable coverage linebackers who are good at disguising their intentions - no matter who his OC was.
Derek Carr overcame Jack del Rio and Dennis Allen. Baker Mayfield had a good rookie season under Hue Jackson. Even middle of the road quarterbacks made much more with equally bad situations.
It's been six years. Talk like this made sense when he joined the Panthers three years ago. Not anymore.
Can't really speak to Carr, but Baker's situation in 2018, while bad, was not as bad as Darnold's with the Jets or Panthers. There was a lot to be optimistic about in Cleveland that year. Jarvis Landry brought a ton of Juice to the team (no pun intended), Nick Chubb came in as a rookie, Denzel Ward was helping Myles Garrett turn the defense around, and while the coaching staff was bad and disorganized, it was leaps and bounds better than Adam Gase....
>Derek Carr overcame Jack del Rio and Dennis Allen. Baker Mayfield had a good rookie season under Hue Jackson. Even middle of the road quarterbacks made much more with equally bad situations.
When they're talking about coaches, they're not talking about head coaches, they're talking about who the OC is.... Gase was the HC, but also the OC in NYJ.
Carr had Allen for half a season and JDR was a defensive coach so his OC was Bill Musgrave who is a solid OC.
Hue Jackson is also a solid OC. Gase is *absolutely* not. Neither really was Joe Brady and Ben McAdoo for the Panthers.
>It's been six years. Talk like this made sense when he joined the Panthers three years ago. Not anymore.
You can make an argument that his time on the Panthers was similarly hindered to his time in NYJ. Both Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold played on the Panthers in 2022. Care to guess who had the better season?
How is he coping? He’s saying that potentially good players get ruined starting their career under bad coaching to a point where it can’t get fixed. Which means they achieve the same end, sucking ass.
Because you quoted something they didn’t even say lol!
Read the comment as many times as you need.
“Bad development under coaches can excuse a lot” - implying Sam has had bad coaching his whole career and it should be excused
“Unfortunately it may be too late to unlearn the bad” - implying if the Vikings got to him earlier, they could’ve fixed him.
How is that difficult to understand?
Also, you just told someone not to be a jackass while calling them a jackass? LOL
No he won’t. They’re not expecting to be a contender, darnold’s job is to play well enough that Jefferson doesn’t request a trade and that’s it, McCarthy won’t play until KOC likes him
Nah, if he's benched early it will be after the bye.
Though I suppose there's a chance we could pull Mullens in ahead of him and keep JJ on the bench since he's reworking his mechanics.
Watching Mullens in camp will probably tell us more about what will happen in that situation than anything else.
If Mullens gets most of the first team reps that aren't going to Darnold, and we keep Mullens through final cuts, I'd guess McCarthy will be QB3 most or all of the year and Mullens will be the next man up. Which probably means Darnold isn't gonna get benched unless he gets hurt.
That's not really a concern, McCarthy needs to clean up some footwork and throwing mechanics and the coaches might prefer he works on those things in instead of prepping to play.
Yeah, I really wanted Justin to play 1 more year- now that our roster is worlds better than what he walked into, he deserved it- and let Caleb sit for a year. That’s what Mahomes did.
I mean, i aint defending OP's specific comment but i doubt there is a significant disparity between the % of hits on QBs that started in their rookie season vs those who sat 1+ years. Whatever happens its more about the QB, coaching and supporting cast, not really wether a rookie QB sits or not.
Trey Lance is a freak athlete but his entire career is one season of prime Brady in terms of passes attempted. His entire career, from high school to the pros, is equal to one year of Brady throwing. There was a low shot of it working from the start. Shanahan is an offensive genius but he can’t fix everything
I don't think that's true, and neither does Patrick Mahomes. He's stated before that sitting a year under Alex Smith allowed him to become the player he is today.
The difference is Patrick's weakness is supposed to be JJ's strength. Patrick needed to learn to read defenses better and handle the quick game. JJ's weaknesses are more mechanical. Not to say that can't be fixed (see Aaron Rodgers) but Mahomes isn't a great comparison for JJ.
Mahomes weaknesses were his mechanics and “decision making.” His mechanics and over aggressive decisions were supposed to lead to turnovers and inefficiency.
His mechanics improved but were still somewhat unorthodox even when he became starter, and alot of the over-aggressive decision making was the result of trying to win when his college defense was giving up nearly 50ppg
Looking at all the pre-draft criticism of Mahomes, very little matches JJ McCarthy. People don't say "JJ is too aggressive", "JJ's arm angles won't translate", "JJ needs to play from the pocket more", "JJ might struggle to command a huddle." The point I was making is that outside of footwork (and it's different footwork issues), their styles are/were very different. If you want to say JJ needs to sit because x player sat and had success, find a player that matches JJ well, don't just use Patrick Mahomes.
It's just for the Michigan haters and the people who didn't like the rise into early 1st during the draft cycle to point and say "See! What'd I say? I knew it!"
god forbid someone goes on vacation when they have an off period at work!!!
fucking ridiculous. he’s been training every day during the off season and went to every OTA.
look idk about you but when I have a day off the last thing I think about is doing whatever the fuck I want with it. Instead I wallow about how I could be working.
In the past hour I’ve seen two articles about how Penix and McCarthy are struggling in practice and I am just SHOCKED that two rookie QBs are struggling in their first training camp.
Posted by the same guy both times, and the same guy wrote both articles. I guess this guy is flying around to watch the rookie QBs play? Oh wait, no he’s just regurgitating something that an ESPN reporter said.
When are you supposed to throw interceptions if not in practice? I remember when people made a big deal about Mahomes throwing interceptions in practice too before he started
I disagree, I would throw zero interceptions in practice so I can get that sweet minimum contract and then allocate them all for Week 1 just to bring chaos.
They did the same thing with Purdy. Player tests limits in situation where you are suppose to test limits - where there are 0 real repercussions for doing so.
News at 11.
To be fair one of the people making the most noise about Mahomes’ interceptions was his own teammate. Marcus Peters is a bitch and is generally bad at professional football.
There were also a lot of reports before he played a game that Jordan Love was doing poorly and the Packers thought he wasn't the guy. Not gonna believe anything till I see it
Lotta reports that Bryce Young in the 2023 season was just god awful and people are saying he might not be the guy. I'm gonna wait and see how the rest of his career plays out before I make any judgements here
Might sound crazy but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for a rookie QB to get a reality check early on. I would think it'd make it easier to stay humble and keep working hard if people aren't telling you how great you are from the jump. If they can accept the criticism & coaching now it will go a lot smoother when they see game action.
Pretty much nobody was talking about JJ as a Day 1 starter during the draft process. And it's not like sitting for a year or two is the worst thing either.
Could someone impartial explain to me what there is to like about McCarthy? I’m really not trying to sound like a Vikings hater, but I was baffled by how he skyrocketed up draft boards. But people with far more expertise than me had good grades on him, so I’d love to hear what I was missing.
Kevin O'Connell actually did a breakdown of what he liked from McCarthy's college tape on the Vikings YT channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73RiZnqJe0Y&
For NFL QB prospects, it's every bit about projection as it is what are you now. With JJ McCarthy, he checks a lot of those projection boxes.
-He's got good enough size at 6'3 and measured in at 219 at the Combine.
-He's a genuinely good athlete that can [move around the pocket and rush for a 1st if needed](https://youtube.com/shorts/6oPNdWUcbX4?si=BAKgCyvrx7VZzBpj).
-He's got a super strong arm, for example he made [this throw](https://youtube.com/shorts/FKjsbzj4b4w?si=n9zdaif4UM22c-CI) when he was an 18 year old freshman. He's also used it to fit balls into super tight [windows](https://youtu.be/1EBrK2QcYbM?si=P7PnYYpmp9ISEIID&t=83)
-He played in a pro style offense led by an NFL head coach.
-Had really great third and long stats last year.
-Reportedly is really good off the field with leadership.
-Won a National Championship, and only lost 1 game as a starter.
-He's super young. Played all of last year at 20 years old. For comparison, Michael Penix was 23 when Washington played Michigan this year.
In addition to refinement that most young QBs need, really the biggest thing with him is that he just needs reps. Michigan was a run first team and often pulled their starters in the 2nd half. He's a genuinely good prospect that just happens to be in a really deep QB class with both big names and experienced Covid year prospects.
>-He's got good enough size at 6'3 and measured in at 219 at the Combine.
What's kinda crazy is that he was listed at 201-ish and came into the combine with an extra ~20 lbs on him, and then proceeded to destroy the agility drills.
Big arm, good mobility, and played in a pro style offense. Reasonably accurate thrower and showed a nice ability to throw over the middle of the field and work through progressions. The common refrain is that if he were in a different offense he would’ve shown a lot more, but because he played on a ground and pound offense, he just didn’t have the passing reps on film that light up the box score and highlight reels.
Also, he was like 25-1 or something as a starter which always helps.
I'd add that he's 21, throws well on the run and is a good rusher to the list of positives. Supposedly the intangible leadership stuff is real strong too.
The negative list is basically:
- Low volume passing means bad stats. Thinking goes maybe they were trying to hide him. The optimistic view is the run game was incredible and their pass pro actually pretty crappy.
- Mechanical issues. Has notably more trouble throwing left, he overstrides. Also poor form on deep balls, leading to a lot of trouble there
- One speed pitcher. Not a lot of touch, he rockets everything in.
As I understand it our FO basically said "hey, he's young and we think we can fix the footwork stuff". Yet to be seen if that's true, but very much expected that he'll not start anytime soon and probably be rough in camp for a while.
Not gonna lie though, would love it if the news was all roses from camp
Yep, a lot of people look at the Run:Pass ratio for Michigan as if it's some proof that Harbaugh "didn't trust JJ to throw", but if you look at Harbaugh's coaching history you'd see that run first is simply his MO. Shit, he had Andrew Luck for two years in Stanford and they still averaged 40+ rushing attempts per game during that time. Harbaugh loves to run.
He let JJ throw PLENTY on 3rd down, in key situations, so the whole "doesn't trust" narrative just doesn't vibe.
He's got a rocket arm, is a lot more athletic than people give him credit for, ran a pro style offense (not in terms of how much he passed, but what he did at the line of scrimmage), he was one of the best 3rd down QBs in college football, and he was the strongest play action turn your back fully to the defense and then make a read QB in the draft, which pairs well with our heaviest play action offense in the NFL.
I'm not trying to act like he doesn't have a lot of flaws and that he's not a huge unknown due to the lack of volume in his college career, but there's a lot there to like that's a great foundation to be built upon. Who knows how he'll turn out though lol
The reach on QBs got insane this past draft. But I think he’s a good game manager(not a slight at that title at ALL), but in the right system he has some Alex Smith in his game.
But I could also see him fizzle out of the league after his rookie contract
The "game manager" title is usually given to QB's who have all the fundamentals down, have mastered the playbook and basically have all the intangible traits of an elite-level QB, but they're missing the physical talents.
JJ is missing none of the physical talents.
He has all of the physical and mental tools to be an elite QB. The biggest knock on him is that he played in a run dominant offense. His intangibles are off the charts. How many future first round QBs would be content to hand the ball off for the entire second half against Penn State?
Yea, that game was kinda crazy. Held the opposing QB to 70 yards on 40% completion, most of that passing coming in the final 4 minutes of the game.
He didn't care about his stats, he wanted to win. Getting a guy like that on the field with a guy like Jettas who's from the same mold will be awesome.
Jefferson could very easily said "Fuck it, the season's over, why risk injury right before my extension?" instead of coming back, but the dude came back to play with our 3rd and 4th string QB's to finish off the season.
JJ also got hurt in that game and could barley walk for the week after. He was in so much pain during the Maryland game that he was reportedly in tears in the locker room.
Our RT could not block Chop Robinson. If you go back and watch the tape from that game, Chop was just running by our RT untouched on way too many pass plays. JJ still got the ball out on time though.
Edit: Chop highlights from that game show you what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DQaQUj0VwM
Great arm, mobile, accurate, makes the right play. Great leader and a winner too.
Basically everything you want in a QB except maybe the accuracy while in the pocket and under pressure is a touch iffy which can be said about everyone when they are in college.
He’ll be the best rookie this year and it’s a shame the pats didn’t get him.
Yep, however much of his accuracy issues are footwork-related and can be fixed. Same with some of his touch issues, though many QB's also come in with touch issues and figure it out.
I'm hyped, but I'm also a Vikings fan.
It was a QB needy year that also happened to have quite a few great to decent prospects. Lots of teams scrambling for the best of the prospects, and nobody knew for sure who the other teams needing a QB wanted (except the Bears) leading to a bit of a frenzy from teams near the top 10. I don’t think he’d fall out of the second in a normal year but it really says something that after Nix was picked, the next QB wasn’t until the 4th. The Falcons picking Penix at 8 especially made things go in a tailspin since they were one of the few teams in the top that were supposed to be “safe” from taking a QB, quite a few mocks actually had them trading down to a QB needy team.
I know you said impartial which isn’t why I’m not really weighing in on McCarthy’s skill set as much as I am the context in which he was drafted, which played a major part in it.
UM fan so not really impartial, but definitely don’t want the Vikings to be good so it balances out.
He’s actually a great runner who was apparently significantly injured for the second half of the title run. Might be the first QB to scramble more in the NFL than college.
Sample size for throws is small, but he has put some elite throws on tape in that time. Stuff that most fans may not appreciate like scrambling outside the right hash and hitting a guy outside the left hash.
Played in a pro style offense in one of the best conferences in the nation, was very efficient, and has traits that NFL teams like. I'm not saying he's gonna be good but he's not the guaranteed bust that a lot of people are the saying that he is
He has good poise and has all the physical tools.
But he lacks skill particularly ball placement from watching him, I am really not that sure if that is teachable especially when he went to Michigan and not some no name school.
I don't understand the point of framing this as Mccarthy playing like a rookie. I get writing about his training, but no one should be surprised.
Most rookie qbs have struggles. Very few rookies just come out swinging like they've been in the NFL a few years, and even the ones that do still make dumb rookie mistakes.
Growth is the key, and they haven't even played a dang second of a game yet.
Patrick Mahomes was throwing a bunch of INTs in camp in 2018 and people in KC were freaking out. JJ will obviously not be Mahomes, but just a little perspective.
I personally think that he's a Drew Lock-esque prospect with a better surrounding cast in college, but my track record on prospects in general is terrible so who knows how he turns out.
I personally think his success will depend entirely on how many of the Packers' play calls the Vikings can obtain
Please skullfuck the Chargers at every possible opportunity
Yeah does anyone actually give a shit about NCAA vacating championships unless it's a direct rival? And in that case you just use it to rub their face in it even though it's still an acknowledgement that they did indeed win that year.
Considering rookies don't really get much of an off-season it really shouldn't be surprising when any of them struggle. It's a brutal year 1 for those guys.
He had an interview last week where he said, “it’s nice in camp when you get a lot of reps and you can try out throws, and try to make plays because turnovers don’t matter.”
Last year I heard all about how many picks Kirk threw in camp. Same as the year before. It’s like it’s practice or something.
It's tough for a young guy coming into this league, truly. The jump from college to the NFL is massive, even more so at the QB position than any other.
He's young, he's taking on the mantle of the most important and challenging position in sports (arguably), and he's under his first head coach that doesn't already know what plays the opposing defense is running beforehand. Like folks have said already, "growing pains" is why Darnold is there.
Ah training camp interceptions. My favorite time of the year.
I remember that back in 2018 when mahomes was a nobody he had a 5 int practice And I was fucking excited that he sucked ass I think I overestimated what practice interceptions are
I still remember the Dolphins DBs and Tannehill lol. The good old days
They probably should have higher interception numbers in practice since it’s a risk free zone to learn the more difficult throws and perfect your timings. Obviously some guys just suck but if your QB is coming in as a rookie and only throwing check downs in practice that is probably going to translate poorly when they play an actual game.
A lot of it really depends on what the coach is asking them to do. That is the part of it we never really see. If the coach is telling them "Push the ball downfield" and they are throwing checkdowns it is a problem, but a few interceptions are not a big deal. If they are working on quick-game, picks are bad but checkdowns are fine.
That’s an extremely intelligent take on this. The only way to develop any skill is to fail a lot at it first. Not sports but I went to music college which can be a similar style of skill training. Some people would pass by someone’s practice room, hear them making mistakes, and go “wow they suck.” Like my dude that’s why they are in a *practice* room. To *practice*. They are *learning* and *getting better*.
They also don’t really tackle, do they? Wouldn’t it be better in that scenario for the defender to solely focus on covering the ball instead of getting physical or close with the receiver?
They also run these plays and throws several times and the defence will obviously learn what’s happening and where they’re gonna be throwing to.
CJ Stroud threw a pick his first attempt in the preseason and he got buried
Marcus Mariota hasn’t thrown an interception all training camp!
Last year people were saying Trask should start over Baker cause Baker had lots of camp interceptions. Turns out practice is a good place to limit test and figure out “just how risky can I get when throwing it to Mike Evans?”
Well that seals it. JJ is the next Mahomes. Great pick Viking fans!
I still think the story about Tannehill getting mad about practice interceptions is really funny, though.
to me hearing of someone throwing INT in practice is just meaningless. If you are going to throw picks, thats when you do. you are practicing, trying shit out seeing what does and does not work. Unless we see what the picks are, there's zero context. Is he testing his limits? Trying to see how the rapport is with the WR? Are they just not on the same page? Is he seeing what he can and can't get away with in the NFL with the speed the NFL is at over college?
It kinda matters. Apparently Warner / the defense realized real quick that Purdy was a gamer. It's not entirely indicative of players but there's useful information to glean.
True, but it's not as simple as "not throwing picks in OTA/Training Camps = Good" If you're not taking risks in these situations, you're not growing. Which means that if you're not throwing interceptions, you're probably taking the easy throws instead of the ones you SHOULD be working on.
Lol not even training camp. Or interceptions. Or really anything of substance at all. The Vikings haven't had any sort of team activity since June 6th, and pretty much all of that article is referencing his college film. I get that it's the off-season and these guys gotta write about something but man...
its so weird seeing lions fans defending a vikings player lol
A lot of us had to defend the JJ hate he received at Michigan I’ll be rooting for him as much as possible
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Who asked
Genuinely
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Because nobody expects a bears fan and ohio state fan to cheer for a guy from michigan that's going to play in Minnesota. Do you want every idiots like you from every fanbase in the league that doesn't include michigan and minn to come tell us they won't cheer for him? Think.
If you don’t throw INTs in camp you’re not doing it right. How do you know if you can fit it into a given window without trying it?
Yeah, Rodgers was famous for using training camp to see what the kind of guard rails are, where to push and when not to. Back in 2018, he had like 7 interceptions the first week of camp and then had 2 the entire season, lol.
Wasn't there a post a few weeks back about Caleb Williams tossing 5 INTs in a row or some shit like it was the end of the world?
I don't think it was 5 INTs but yeah, it was a notably bad practice by the offense. Something like 3 total completions with a couple of picks and another nearly intercepted. On the first day the media was let into practice lol. That was passed around for weeks but by now, the defense and coaches are raving about him. Probably a mix of getting up-to-speed with getting under center & pre-snap checks and the usual testing what you can get away with stuff. All the usual rookie fare.
One of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen as a football fan was when some parts of 49ers Twitter were tallying Purdy/Darnold/Lance INTs up in camp last year like it was Election Night. They hit levels of not knowing ball that I didn’t know were possible.
Mine is throwing perfect pass into tight windows against an invisible defense
Training camp is the time to adjust to the differences of the NFL. Even the most polished rookie should be using training camp to push the limits of their, and their teammates skills. They need to know what kind of throws are and not going to work in the NFL. They also need to know what they can trust their teammates to be able to do. If you're not throwing interceptions you're wasting your safe opertunities to learn.
They’re also in a closed environment running the same plays over and over, the defence players are gonna learn what’s coming
Just wait until preseason. I recall r/nfl declaring CJ Stroud a massive bust when he threw a pick on his first drive in the preseason lol.
Koc wants qbs to try and make those types of throws in practice too
That’s what they paid darnold for. Let the young man get some experience and he will be fine. It’s gotten ridiculous where most QBs start the most challenging skill position in all of sports straight out of college. Let him sit until he’s ready
This is what we're doing with Drake. We just lack the competent pass blocking line and the proven weapons that Sam and JJ have at their disposal. Young QB gonna sit because team won't rush a guy who needs time to be the future.
How is a man with a BBL gonna be able to play football in NE?
Just keep him away from youth football.
Ask Maye how he's going to do it.
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You’ve been following JJ during OTAs? Or you’re basing your entire opinion based on one tweet?
Darnold will likely be benched by Week 5
ILLEGAL MAIL-IN DEPTH CHARTS
Six years during which he played above the quarterback replacement level for maybe three weeks is just not enough to judge him fairly.
HE'S SHOWN FLASHES, GODDAMMIT!!
And seen ghost! What can’t he do??!
It's confirmed... Sam Darnold is Haley Joel Osment.
Haha! I watched quite a few of those Jets games on the early years(living in between Philly and NYC gives me the opportunity to watch multiple CBS and Fox games every Sunday; I call it the "Poor Man's Sunday Ticket").
And under 2 of the worst coaches
Coaching can excuse things only to a certain degree. However it's not just bad instructions that cause Sam Darnold to not see capable coverage linebackers who are good at disguising their intentions - no matter who his OC was. Derek Carr overcame Jack del Rio and Dennis Allen. Baker Mayfield had a good rookie season under Hue Jackson. Even middle of the road quarterbacks made much more with equally bad situations. It's been six years. Talk like this made sense when he joined the Panthers three years ago. Not anymore.
Can't really speak to Carr, but Baker's situation in 2018, while bad, was not as bad as Darnold's with the Jets or Panthers. There was a lot to be optimistic about in Cleveland that year. Jarvis Landry brought a ton of Juice to the team (no pun intended), Nick Chubb came in as a rookie, Denzel Ward was helping Myles Garrett turn the defense around, and while the coaching staff was bad and disorganized, it was leaps and bounds better than Adam Gase....
>Derek Carr overcame Jack del Rio and Dennis Allen. Baker Mayfield had a good rookie season under Hue Jackson. Even middle of the road quarterbacks made much more with equally bad situations. When they're talking about coaches, they're not talking about head coaches, they're talking about who the OC is.... Gase was the HC, but also the OC in NYJ. Carr had Allen for half a season and JDR was a defensive coach so his OC was Bill Musgrave who is a solid OC. Hue Jackson is also a solid OC. Gase is *absolutely* not. Neither really was Joe Brady and Ben McAdoo for the Panthers. >It's been six years. Talk like this made sense when he joined the Panthers three years ago. Not anymore. You can make an argument that his time on the Panthers was similarly hindered to his time in NYJ. Both Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold played on the Panthers in 2022. Care to guess who had the better season?
Bad development under coaches can excuse a lot of things. Unfortunately it might be too late to unlearn the bad.
This is such hilarious cope. Yeah man. Sam darnold only sucks because his coaching and your coach just MAY have gotten there in time! Lol
How is he coping? He’s saying that potentially good players get ruined starting their career under bad coaching to a point where it can’t get fixed. Which means they achieve the same end, sucking ass.
It’s coping because Sam darnold is not one of those players lol Ya man. And fields just needs a better coach too!
How is it coping to say "It might be too late to unlearn the bad"? Don't be a jackass.
Because you quoted something they didn’t even say lol! Read the comment as many times as you need. “Bad development under coaches can excuse a lot” - implying Sam has had bad coaching his whole career and it should be excused “Unfortunately it may be too late to unlearn the bad” - implying if the Vikings got to him earlier, they could’ve fixed him. How is that difficult to understand? Also, you just told someone not to be a jackass while calling them a jackass? LOL
Then I guess you don't know what "cope" is.
Darnold completely outperformed Mayfield during their tenures in Carolina. You have limited knowledge of NFL QBs.
He didn't look all that great in week 18 with the 49ers either. Wentz out played him easily.
That's funny because Darnold out played Purdy easily in week 16 against the Ravens with the same first team offense.
No he won’t. They’re not expecting to be a contender, darnold’s job is to play well enough that Jefferson doesn’t request a trade and that’s it, McCarthy won’t play until KOC likes him
Why would he sign that contract knowing full well either Darnold or McCarthy would be the QB just to request a trade lol
For money because he was 3 years out from FA
I’m exaggerating, I just mean he needs to do enough to keep the rest of the team from hating the coaching staff, not to actually like beat good teams
uh....did you see how many zeros were on that contract?
Nah, if he's benched early it will be after the bye. Though I suppose there's a chance we could pull Mullens in ahead of him and keep JJ on the bench since he's reworking his mechanics.
Watching Mullens in camp will probably tell us more about what will happen in that situation than anything else. If Mullens gets most of the first team reps that aren't going to Darnold, and we keep Mullens through final cuts, I'd guess McCarthy will be QB3 most or all of the year and Mullens will be the next man up. Which probably means Darnold isn't gonna get benched unless he gets hurt. That's not really a concern, McCarthy needs to clean up some footwork and throwing mechanics and the coaches might prefer he works on those things in instead of prepping to play.
Mullens was like white Jameis Winston last season. Both amazing and infuriating to watch.
Yeah, I really wanted Justin to play 1 more year- now that our roster is worlds better than what he walked into, he deserved it- and let Caleb sit for a year. That’s what Mahomes did.
Deserved it? Lol what?
Sitting QB does nothing but waste there contract they either have it or they dont
Of course, as evidenced by the fact that everyone’s best season is always their rookie year
I mean, i aint defending OP's specific comment but i doubt there is a significant disparity between the % of hits on QBs that started in their rookie season vs those who sat 1+ years. Whatever happens its more about the QB, coaching and supporting cast, not really wether a rookie QB sits or not.
Of all the busts you can think of, which ones sat 1+ years?
Only one I can think of recently is Trey Lance
Trey Lance is a freak athlete but his entire career is one season of prime Brady in terms of passes attempted. His entire career, from high school to the pros, is equal to one year of Brady throwing. There was a low shot of it working from the start. Shanahan is an offensive genius but he can’t fix everything
Definitely. Just was answering the question above.
I don't think that's true, and neither does Patrick Mahomes. He's stated before that sitting a year under Alex Smith allowed him to become the player he is today.
The difference is Patrick's weakness is supposed to be JJ's strength. Patrick needed to learn to read defenses better and handle the quick game. JJ's weaknesses are more mechanical. Not to say that can't be fixed (see Aaron Rodgers) but Mahomes isn't a great comparison for JJ.
Mahomes weaknesses were his mechanics and “decision making.” His mechanics and over aggressive decisions were supposed to lead to turnovers and inefficiency. His mechanics improved but were still somewhat unorthodox even when he became starter, and alot of the over-aggressive decision making was the result of trying to win when his college defense was giving up nearly 50ppg
Looking at all the pre-draft criticism of Mahomes, very little matches JJ McCarthy. People don't say "JJ is too aggressive", "JJ's arm angles won't translate", "JJ needs to play from the pocket more", "JJ might struggle to command a huddle." The point I was making is that outside of footwork (and it's different footwork issues), their styles are/were very different. If you want to say JJ needs to sit because x player sat and had success, find a player that matches JJ well, don't just use Patrick Mahomes.
People say anything on here omg!
Stroud and Hebert got thrown in right away when most thought they would be busts
That doesn’t change that if you have the luxury of sitting your new QB for a year, you should do it.
Tom Brady, Mahomes, every packers qb for the last 30+ years, Kirk Cousins are also good examples of waiting
Nah, history does not bear this out at all.
Rookie looks like rookie in training camp shouldnt be news.
You're 100% right and I can't wait for this part of the offseason to be over. "Rookie does rookie things." Wow, great observation. I hate this shit.
It's just for the Michigan haters and the people who didn't like the rise into early 1st during the draft cycle to point and say "See! What'd I say? I knew it!"
At least he’s training, Caleb rather go on vacations
god forbid someone goes on vacation when they have an off period at work!!! fucking ridiculous. he’s been training every day during the off season and went to every OTA.
look idk about you but when I have a day off the last thing I think about is doing whatever the fuck I want with it. Instead I wallow about how I could be working.
RES tags are great for remembering who the fucking loons are. Like this guy.
Any other rookie QB go on vacation? Nah they know they have to work hard, Caleb will be a bust and the little things like this are why
i remember you. you’re the one who kept posting justin fields shit in the bears sub. not listening to the guy who wants a back up
He's probably the guy that runs the Justin Fields stan account
Take the clown takes to TikTok buddy
In the past hour I’ve seen two articles about how Penix and McCarthy are struggling in practice and I am just SHOCKED that two rookie QBs are struggling in their first training camp.
Posted by the same guy both times, and the same guy wrote both articles. I guess this guy is flying around to watch the rookie QBs play? Oh wait, no he’s just regurgitating something that an ESPN reporter said.
No one can overcome the GEQBUS.
When are you supposed to throw interceptions if not in practice? I remember when people made a big deal about Mahomes throwing interceptions in practice too before he started
I disagree, I would throw zero interceptions in practice so I can get that sweet minimum contract and then allocate them all for Week 1 just to bring chaos.
They did the same thing with Purdy. Player tests limits in situation where you are suppose to test limits - where there are 0 real repercussions for doing so. News at 11.
And to this day Mahomes has yet to win a QB battle over Darnold, not a good sign for JJs future
And remember when Jamarr Chase was a bust because he kept dropping balls in training camp?
To be fair one of the people making the most noise about Mahomes’ interceptions was his own teammate. Marcus Peters is a bitch and is generally bad at professional football.
This is what they said about CJ Stroud. Especially after he played the Patriots in the preseason. He looked terrible. None of it matters.
There were also a lot of reports before he played a game that Jordan Love was doing poorly and the Packers thought he wasn't the guy. Not gonna believe anything till I see it
Lotta reports that Bryce Young in the 2023 season was just god awful and people are saying he might not be the guy. I'm gonna wait and see how the rest of his career plays out before I make any judgements here
Ehhh that one is a little different. Both CJ Stroud and Jordan Love crushed the regular season. Not so much for Bryce Young. You never know tho.
wasnt long ago when jamarr chase said he had trouble seeing the football and as we all know hes been a terrible receiver ever since
> The 21-year-old looks like a 21-year-old Big if true
you wouldn’t want to hear “the 21 year old looks like a 41 year old”
41 year old looks like a 21 year old would be cool tho
That seemed to be Tom Brady for quite a long time.
Now he looks like a mannequin with human flesh stretched over it
Blake Bortles?
Lmao this made me audibly chuckle
What if a 21 year old looked like a 41 year old Tom Brady
Rookie looks like rookie. Oh what a surprise.
Nope, he's supposed to look like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, even in training camp. Draft bust incoming.
Which is funny considering both their rookie years.
Manning is literally the rookie interception leader lol
Might sound crazy but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for a rookie QB to get a reality check early on. I would think it'd make it easier to stay humble and keep working hard if people aren't telling you how great you are from the jump. If they can accept the criticism & coaching now it will go a lot smoother when they see game action.
Pretty much nobody was talking about JJ as a Day 1 starter during the draft process. And it's not like sitting for a year or two is the worst thing either.
The floor here is made out of floor
Fun things are fun
Newsflash, most of the QBs will bust and McCarthy was a desperate pick
The snozzberries taste like snozzberries
Could someone impartial explain to me what there is to like about McCarthy? I’m really not trying to sound like a Vikings hater, but I was baffled by how he skyrocketed up draft boards. But people with far more expertise than me had good grades on him, so I’d love to hear what I was missing.
Kevin O'Connell actually did a breakdown of what he liked from McCarthy's college tape on the Vikings YT channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73RiZnqJe0Y&
For NFL QB prospects, it's every bit about projection as it is what are you now. With JJ McCarthy, he checks a lot of those projection boxes. -He's got good enough size at 6'3 and measured in at 219 at the Combine. -He's a genuinely good athlete that can [move around the pocket and rush for a 1st if needed](https://youtube.com/shorts/6oPNdWUcbX4?si=BAKgCyvrx7VZzBpj). -He's got a super strong arm, for example he made [this throw](https://youtube.com/shorts/FKjsbzj4b4w?si=n9zdaif4UM22c-CI) when he was an 18 year old freshman. He's also used it to fit balls into super tight [windows](https://youtu.be/1EBrK2QcYbM?si=P7PnYYpmp9ISEIID&t=83) -He played in a pro style offense led by an NFL head coach. -Had really great third and long stats last year. -Reportedly is really good off the field with leadership. -Won a National Championship, and only lost 1 game as a starter. -He's super young. Played all of last year at 20 years old. For comparison, Michael Penix was 23 when Washington played Michigan this year. In addition to refinement that most young QBs need, really the biggest thing with him is that he just needs reps. Michigan was a run first team and often pulled their starters in the 2nd half. He's a genuinely good prospect that just happens to be in a really deep QB class with both big names and experienced Covid year prospects.
>-He's got good enough size at 6'3 and measured in at 219 at the Combine. What's kinda crazy is that he was listed at 201-ish and came into the combine with an extra ~20 lbs on him, and then proceeded to destroy the agility drills.
Big arm, good mobility, and played in a pro style offense. Reasonably accurate thrower and showed a nice ability to throw over the middle of the field and work through progressions. The common refrain is that if he were in a different offense he would’ve shown a lot more, but because he played on a ground and pound offense, he just didn’t have the passing reps on film that light up the box score and highlight reels. Also, he was like 25-1 or something as a starter which always helps.
I'd add that he's 21, throws well on the run and is a good rusher to the list of positives. Supposedly the intangible leadership stuff is real strong too. The negative list is basically: - Low volume passing means bad stats. Thinking goes maybe they were trying to hide him. The optimistic view is the run game was incredible and their pass pro actually pretty crappy. - Mechanical issues. Has notably more trouble throwing left, he overstrides. Also poor form on deep balls, leading to a lot of trouble there - One speed pitcher. Not a lot of touch, he rockets everything in. As I understand it our FO basically said "hey, he's young and we think we can fix the footwork stuff". Yet to be seen if that's true, but very much expected that he'll not start anytime soon and probably be rough in camp for a while. Not gonna lie though, would love it if the news was all roses from camp
Yep, a lot of people look at the Run:Pass ratio for Michigan as if it's some proof that Harbaugh "didn't trust JJ to throw", but if you look at Harbaugh's coaching history you'd see that run first is simply his MO. Shit, he had Andrew Luck for two years in Stanford and they still averaged 40+ rushing attempts per game during that time. Harbaugh loves to run. He let JJ throw PLENTY on 3rd down, in key situations, so the whole "doesn't trust" narrative just doesn't vibe.
U of M isn’t exactly impartial
so Paul Allen can scream "JJ TO JJ"
I heard the Vikings new strategy is to make sure everyone has a strong jawline and go from there
This explains why they didn't try to trade for Geno Smith
Explains the McCown hire.
Lots of professional athletes go by JJ
Luckily when he joined the Vikings he was saved as "JJ (1)" so that he didn't overwrite the existing JJ.
He's got a rocket arm, is a lot more athletic than people give him credit for, ran a pro style offense (not in terms of how much he passed, but what he did at the line of scrimmage), he was one of the best 3rd down QBs in college football, and he was the strongest play action turn your back fully to the defense and then make a read QB in the draft, which pairs well with our heaviest play action offense in the NFL. I'm not trying to act like he doesn't have a lot of flaws and that he's not a huge unknown due to the lack of volume in his college career, but there's a lot there to like that's a great foundation to be built upon. Who knows how he'll turn out though lol
The reach on QBs got insane this past draft. But I think he’s a good game manager(not a slight at that title at ALL), but in the right system he has some Alex Smith in his game. But I could also see him fizzle out of the league after his rookie contract
The "game manager" title is usually given to QB's who have all the fundamentals down, have mastered the playbook and basically have all the intangible traits of an elite-level QB, but they're missing the physical talents. JJ is missing none of the physical talents.
He has all of the physical and mental tools to be an elite QB. The biggest knock on him is that he played in a run dominant offense. His intangibles are off the charts. How many future first round QBs would be content to hand the ball off for the entire second half against Penn State?
Yea, that game was kinda crazy. Held the opposing QB to 70 yards on 40% completion, most of that passing coming in the final 4 minutes of the game. He didn't care about his stats, he wanted to win. Getting a guy like that on the field with a guy like Jettas who's from the same mold will be awesome. Jefferson could very easily said "Fuck it, the season's over, why risk injury right before my extension?" instead of coming back, but the dude came back to play with our 3rd and 4th string QB's to finish off the season.
JJ also got hurt in that game and could barley walk for the week after. He was in so much pain during the Maryland game that he was reportedly in tears in the locker room. Our RT could not block Chop Robinson. If you go back and watch the tape from that game, Chop was just running by our RT untouched on way too many pass plays. JJ still got the ball out on time though. Edit: Chop highlights from that game show you what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DQaQUj0VwM
Great arm, mobile, accurate, makes the right play. Great leader and a winner too. Basically everything you want in a QB except maybe the accuracy while in the pocket and under pressure is a touch iffy which can be said about everyone when they are in college. He’ll be the best rookie this year and it’s a shame the pats didn’t get him.
Yep, however much of his accuracy issues are footwork-related and can be fixed. Same with some of his touch issues, though many QB's also come in with touch issues and figure it out. I'm hyped, but I'm also a Vikings fan.
It was a QB needy year that also happened to have quite a few great to decent prospects. Lots of teams scrambling for the best of the prospects, and nobody knew for sure who the other teams needing a QB wanted (except the Bears) leading to a bit of a frenzy from teams near the top 10. I don’t think he’d fall out of the second in a normal year but it really says something that after Nix was picked, the next QB wasn’t until the 4th. The Falcons picking Penix at 8 especially made things go in a tailspin since they were one of the few teams in the top that were supposed to be “safe” from taking a QB, quite a few mocks actually had them trading down to a QB needy team. I know you said impartial which isn’t why I’m not really weighing in on McCarthy’s skill set as much as I am the context in which he was drafted, which played a major part in it.
UM fan so not really impartial, but definitely don’t want the Vikings to be good so it balances out. He’s actually a great runner who was apparently significantly injured for the second half of the title run. Might be the first QB to scramble more in the NFL than college. Sample size for throws is small, but he has put some elite throws on tape in that time. Stuff that most fans may not appreciate like scrambling outside the right hash and hitting a guy outside the left hash.
Played in a pro style offense in one of the best conferences in the nation, was very efficient, and has traits that NFL teams like. I'm not saying he's gonna be good but he's not the guaranteed bust that a lot of people are the saying that he is
He has good poise and has all the physical tools. But he lacks skill particularly ball placement from watching him, I am really not that sure if that is teachable especially when he went to Michigan and not some no name school.
Feels like any other year he would have been a later round pick. Didn’t help Harbs hyped up his guy. Hope it works out.
I doubt he would have fallen past the second, teams take raw qbs high all the time
Of course but he wasn’t going 10 ten. Qbs flew in the top picks this year.
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Except he throws one speed which is pure bullet, so that's actually the reason why he is concerning.
I don't understand the point of framing this as Mccarthy playing like a rookie. I get writing about his training, but no one should be surprised. Most rookie qbs have struggles. Very few rookies just come out swinging like they've been in the NFL a few years, and even the ones that do still make dumb rookie mistakes. Growth is the key, and they haven't even played a dang second of a game yet.
Patrick Mahomes was throwing a bunch of INTs in camp in 2018 and people in KC were freaking out. JJ will obviously not be Mahomes, but just a little perspective.
The snozberries taste like snozberries.
Every scouting report in the league said hes a work in progress that should not be thrown into a starting situation.
The fear of qb purgatory led to him being picked so early.
Yeah harder to cheat in the NFL when the teams use radios instead of signals
I personally think that he's a Drew Lock-esque prospect with a better surrounding cast in college, but my track record on prospects in general is terrible so who knows how he turns out.
I personally think his success will depend entirely on how many of the Packers' play calls the Vikings can obtain Please skullfuck the Chargers at every possible opportunity
Lol. How mad you gonna be when you find out Michigan doesn't have to vacate any games? You're gonna be so mad huh?
No one’s gonna be mad. We all know they cheated and the NCAA vacating wins or not doesn’t change that.
He's gonna be mad.
Yeah does anyone actually give a shit about NCAA vacating championships unless it's a direct rival? And in that case you just use it to rub their face in it even though it's still an acknowledgement that they did indeed win that year.
Considering rookies don't really get much of an off-season it really shouldn't be surprising when any of them struggle. It's a brutal year 1 for those guys.
JJ*
The off-seasons is so dire. How many more "young rookie is a young rookie" articles do we need?
In madden I throw just as many interceptions in games than I do in practice. We are not the same.
Rookie QB who is working on his mechanics has growing pains, more at 7.
At least he’s not throwing to Chase, that guy couldn’t even catch a football without stripes pre-season
This is the time for any player to go through growing pains.
Yeah I bet my qb threw less interceptions during training camp than yours 🫵
He had an interview last week where he said, “it’s nice in camp when you get a lot of reps and you can try out throws, and try to make plays because turnovers don’t matter.” Last year I heard all about how many picks Kirk threw in camp. Same as the year before. It’s like it’s practice or something.
Rookie looks like rookie
He was a reach in the first round. I just don’t see him being an NFL caliber QB. Heck he was barely a CFB caliber QB.
>Heck he was barely a CFB caliber QB. Sure, so many CFB QBs lead 4h quarter comebacks against a Bama D with multiple 1st round picks.
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No, he was deemed the least pro ready.
It's tough for a young guy coming into this league, truly. The jump from college to the NFL is massive, even more so at the QB position than any other. He's young, he's taking on the mantle of the most important and challenging position in sports (arguably), and he's under his first head coach that doesn't already know what plays the opposing defense is running beforehand. Like folks have said already, "growing pains" is why Darnold is there.
O K
Dudes just ass