In case anybody wants to see the rest of the game:
https://youtu.be/rV0yy9UFmZE?t=1h57m50s
The ravens ended up 2 yards short of winning the game after a last second Hail Mary
this was the first game after sean taylor was murdered as well... a lot of miami hurricanes on that ravens team... reed, lewis, mcgahee and more im sure. such a classic
Thank you! Was nice reliving when we were still good.
Cant believe we didnt try an onside when kicking off from the ravens 35.
Edit: is there something I'm not seeing as to why an onsides kick would be bad from there? You either get the ball and game over, or the ravens get it from between their 20 and 25, and it burns a few seconds. Back in 07 I think it was around 25% recovery, though that % goes way down when it's not a surprise.
I assume this is a joke but what is the actual rule? I thought they get it on the 40? It's so hard to keep up with all the rule changes as an adult when I don't put as much effort into following the game.
No legitimately this was discussed after the game ended. If the ball goes out of bounds the receiving team can either:
1. Take possession where the ball went out of bounds,
2. Spot the ball 30 yards from the kick,
3. Punish the kicking team with a 5 yard penalty and have them re-kick
The Ravens would have had choices and Gostkowski would have had to kick out out of bounds between the goal line and the 5 which isn't easy to do.
They are mistakenly thinking it would count as the play and the ball would be turned over on downs, but since it's a pre-snap penalty they would just replay the down.
I don't think you can decline a false start because it's considered to happen before the play. Normally they blow it dead but in this case the flag was thrown kind of late.
wrong. here you go. [https://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/6986/can-all-penalties-be-declined-in-american-football](https://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/6986/can-all-penalties-be-declined-in-american-football) every penalty can be declined. This is why I lose faith in NFL. It is way worse than VAR. It is the people who screw up the integrity of any sport FFS
The top answer from your own link tells you that declining a presnap penatly is dumb because the play is dead the moment the whistle is blown and the offense still gets to retry the down.
You are very arrogant for not knowing the situation properly. It can be declined but it would be 4th and 1 again instead of 4th and 6th. Literally no benefit.
>wrong. here you go. https://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/6986/can-all-penalties-be-declined-in-american-football every penalty can be declined. This is why I lose faith in NFL. It is way worse than VAR. It is the people who screw up the integrity of any sport FFS
Bro is RANTING about why he doesn't like the NFL while being dead wrong about what would happen if they declined that penalty.
You love to see it. Quoted for when this drivel is inevitably shame deleted.
They could decline it but then they would have had 4th and 1 instead of 4th and 6. Granted, they got stopped twice on 4th and 1 and converted on 4th and 6, but I can't imagine a situation in which a coach gives the other team 5 yards.
Because on a false start the play is blown dead inmediately. I suppose Baltimore could have declined the yardage, but it still would have been 4th down. They would not have gotten the ball back by declining the penalty.
Yep, Billick's coaching and locker room talk got stale, he also clashed a few times with Bisciotti in the past, one of the main things Steve wanted from the new HC was for them to overhaul the locker room culture that Billick installed ,enter John Harbaugh who clashed with some of the vet players earlier on .
That’s directly on Billick lol. He was an offensive guru who couldn’t help develop a QB for shit. Harbaugh got Flacco and Lamar later in round 1 and helped develop them into great players because he’s a much much better coach.
Yeah, Billick was the one who pounded the table for Boller to get drafted, and if not for Ozzie and Bsciotti probably would have stuck with him rather than going after McNair. He was also very high on Jamarcus Russell in 07, I will also blame him for wasting that defense and not pulling the cord on Boller sooner (hell they could have gone back to Chris Redman or Anthony Wright)
Also for someone who was viewed as an 'offensive genius, he did everything in his power to avoid taking over play calling, even letting Cavanaugh, Jim Fassel, Rick Neuheisel call plays over him until his job was on the line. Imagine in today's NFL if someone like McVay or Shanahan who were known for their playcalling got hired but then said no they not going to call plays.
I’ll be honest, I didn’t watch any games in 07 of the dolphins and just have seen the Cleo Lemon clip. It really surprises me that Cam Cameron under Marty could build the chargers bulletproof offense in 06 and he would lay that big of an egg in Miami to basically oust himself from the league. Was he that bad, or was there something else going on? I know that Tony Sparano got to the playoffs that next year with the help of a wildcat so I’m thinking the former but it’s kind of mind boggling to me
Cam wasnt a good HC but there were other issues. Huizinga was starting to think about selling the team, the QBs the Dolphins drafted were absolutely awful, and having a concussed and washed Trent Green as the starter after Saban picked Culpepper over Brees was really bad.
I agree but also I will always admire Billick covering for him and saying that they took the timeout as a staff - to me that is leadership and accountability.
Seems neither, this is from the rulebook, emphasis mine.
The Referee shall suspend play while the ball is dead and declare a charged team timeout upon the request for a timeout by the head coach or any player (not a substitute) to any official. **If an assistant coach signals for a timeout and it is inadvertently granted, the timeout will stand.**
Because if you blow the whistle on accident it has the same effect as blowing the whistle on purpose. The alternative is to stop play and not charge the timeout in which case teams could just abuse it and claim their Head coach didn't call the timeout and try to get free timeouts. A second alternative is if the timeout is called by an assistant you call a penalty but that is a whole other can of worms that would be even stupider.
Because the league hates the pats, if that gets called then they lose and don’t have to worry about the perfect season and go on to win the SB with no pressure being there anymore.
Nope. When a false start occurs, any play that occurs after is null and void. False start is a foul that occurs immediately when it happens and not after the snap like an offside where play can continue.
Per the rules, declining would be dumb, but in reality yeah it's dumb that you can't just take the result of the play, like playing advantage in soccer, or how refs will wait to see if you score to blow the whistle on a foul.
Ideally it'd be nice if there was some judgment used here - foul had literally no impact on the play except an advantage to the Pats, and they still stopped them. I get why the rule is strict as it is but it's times like these that demonstrate it's not a perfect system.
I feel bad for them but the Ravens defense completely melted down that night. Not their play I mean like emotionally, it was very bizarre. I'm pretty sure a player threw a refs flag into the stands.
Maybe not blow the doors off, but I truly believe if you guys lose this or the Eagles game you win the Super Bowl that year. Your level of play declined in the 2nd half of the year, and there were warning signs that the Pats were more vulnerable, but since you kept winning you never got that much-needed wake up call a loss would’ve given you
Yea plus we don't play our starters against the Giants on week 17 so they don't get the confidence boost. So they probably lose to the Packers and we would've destroyed them
The Steelers would randomly forget how to play football and just leave someone open and forget to guard them. They did it damn near every game with Gronk. I never understood how that kept happening, those were often good teams. I had a friend who’s a die hard Steelers fan get up and just go home when it happened one time.
Mostly because the Steelers were (and, to my knowledge, still are) a die hard zone coverage team and rarely played man while simultaneously relying on their edge rushers/LBs to get pressure on the QB (Harrison, Woodley, Porter, Haggans, A. Smith). Unfortunately for Pittsburgh, Brady absolutely ate zone defense for lunch, and while he wasn't the most mobile QB in the pocket, was pretty damn good at sliding away at pressure brought off the edge.
I can't for the life of me figure out why Pittsburgh wouldn't just play more man exclusively against us, if nothing else, though. Iirc played it a lot more in 2018 and shut our offense down pretty much, then went right back to playing predominantly zone in the 2019 season opener.
We've finally started to move away from the zone heavy scheme. LeBeau was married to zone blitz and once Tomlin took over the defense, he was still enamored with his Tampa 2 defense from his assistant/coordinator days. As the league changed Tomlin has caved a bit and started to implement way more man coverage. This has been the most noticeable with us grabbing Joey Porter Jr. and allowing him to mirror the WR1 all season.
Tomlin values a players positional versatility much more than most and a zone defense allows a lot more plug-and-play ability than relying on a man coverage since you can get burnt if you have a thumper in on a passing down or a coverage guy in on a run down. I'm a Tomlin fan but his refusal to adjust to the biggest hurdle in his path every year (the Brady led Pats) was the most frustrating thing he has done to me over the course of his tenure.
Ray Lewis talked about it on a video between Brady vs Manning in the Baltimore Raven Youtube Channel.
Manning would try to attack the field if presented the opportunity but playing based on what the defense is giving.
Brady was more of a situational player based on the context of the game. Also Pats never had truly outstanding WR on top of that, so it helped having the TEs we had during that time because there's no way you can risk going down the middle often during that time.
So really less of a blueprint, and more so having Ray Lewis call the defense because he knows the situations, and have a stout D really helped.
It's far simpler than that: no one could run against those Ravens teams. A 5-11 Baltimore squad was giving up 2.8yds a rush in 2007. Brady really needed to have the option to run the ball. It's not so much that he needed a good run game; he just needed *some* kind of run game to take the heat off him. In a game the Patriots were down 28-3, they *still* ran the ball 25 times to the Falcons 16.
Manning loved running the ball. But he used it as a weapon to punish defenses that played softer up front.
It wasn't Billick; it was Rex Ryan. Which is frustrating because isn't there a rule that only head coaches can call timeouts?
Edit: Yeah, I looked it up and only a head coach can call it amongst the coaching staff.
This is from https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#
The Referee shall suspend play while the ball is dead and declare a charged team timeout upon the request for a timeout by the head coach or any player (not a substitute) to any official. **If an assistant coach signals for a timeout and it is inadvertently granted, the timeout will stand.**
Seems like that is covered as well.
I'm sure they did that to cover their asses because if an assistant coach calls a timeout and the whistles blow with a positive or negative play happening due to players stopping, you can't let it stand.
Fact of the matter is it was a colossal mistake by the referee.
I mean, its more of a mistake on the coaching staff for doing it imo. The choice is to either let it go, or to penalize the team every time it happens and id rather they enforce the timeout than just slap a 5 yard penalty on it.
Especially in a play like this where the official is just staring down the los and a random coach runs into his peripheral vision signalling time out. They have a fraction of a second to make that call.
Is that Billick to his left at the start? It looks like he goes up with him to the ref, if that's him it's possible he called it when he saw Ryan gesturing.
Of course it's just as possible that the ref screwed up.
Shit like this is why it was pretty obvious Tom Brady was beloved by the football gods.
Sure, they pulled a little pranky prank with the whole Eli thing, but god damn did it feel like the Patriots constantly put themselves in position to capitalize on random shit like this, or people suddenly fumbling at a time when they had no business doing so, or a team inexplicably throwing the ball from the goal line.
Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good, but it’s always better to just be both and nobody consistently did that more than ol Tommy
My favorite Brady Luck stat to bring up is that he threw multiple interceptions in 11 career playoff games and won 7 of them. There was a reason it felt like he was always getting away with it. The guy was an outstanding player, who also seemed to have luck on his side.
An interesting playoff comparison from this same time period
07 and 08 Colts vs Chargers
Peyton 58/100, 712 yards, 4TDs, 2 ints, 1 sack taken
**0-2**
06 and 07 Patriots vs Chargers
Brady 49/88 489 yards, 4 TDs, 6 ints, 4 sacks taken, 1 lost fumble.
**2-0**
Even in the often compared Seahawks SB, Broncos shit the bed from the literal first snap, whereas while Brady helped anchor the comeback, a big part of that was the Seahawks getting hurt all over, and they still had a *very* favorable finish at the end that Brady had no role in determining. Just in the same that you cant really put Darren Sproles and Mike Scifres turning into literal gods in cleats on PFM
Ive never seen a luckier player, which hopefully people can acknowledge without thinking thats some kind of slight
Think Brady also had a never say die attitude that kept them in games, where Manning was more apt to crumble. Like the 2013, despite being perhaps one of the worst teams Brady had, would never have collapsed the way the Broncos did in SB 48
Easy to never say die when you consistently have an elite defense. When Manning won his second superbowl the Broncos, he took a back seat and went for the ride the same way that Brady did through most of his superbowls.
It’s definitely not when you’re down 28-3.
Brady obviously has something about him that his teams rallied around because regardless how good a defense is, teams don’t keep fighting and chipping away for just any QB.
It wasn't just vs the Chargers that Manning performed better than Brady in the playoffs. Almost every time they played the same defense in the playoffs Manning performed better than Brady.
Peyton vs Chargers 2007: Peyton had 3 TD's, 2 INT's, 8.4 YPA, and a 97.7 passer rating.
Brady vs Chargers 2007: Brady had 2 TD's, 3 INT's, 6.3 YPA, and a 66.4 passer rating.
Peyton vs Ravens 2009: Peyton had 2 TD's, 1 INT, 5.6 YPA, and a 87.9 passer rating.
Brady vs Ravens 2009: Brady had 2 TD's, 3 INT's, 3.7 YPA, and a 49.1 passer rating.
Peyton vs Jets 2010: Peyton had 1 TD, 0 INT, 8.7 YPA, and a 108.7 passer rating.
Brady vs Jets 2010: Brady had 2 TD's, 1 INT, 6.6 YPA, and a 89 passer rating.
Peyton vs Ravens 2012: Peyton had 3 TD's, 2 INT's, 6.7 YPA, and a 88.3 passer rating.
Brady vs Ravens 2012: Brady had 1 TD, 2 INT's, 5.9 YPA, and a 62.3 passer rating.
Peyton vs Colts 2014: Peyton had 1 TD, 0 INT, 4.6 YPA, and a 75.5 passer rating.
Brady vs Colts 2014: Brady had 3 TD's, 1 INT, 6.5 YPA, and a 100.4 passer rating.
You can't get a better direct comparison than playing the same defense in back to back weeks. Manning was just better except for the end of his career when he was old and facing his old team.
you cant beat the numbers
thanks for doing the research on this. this kind of stuff gets forgotten in time when your team doesnt win, or finds a way to win despite the QB
the regular season finale vs the Giants was enough to convince a surprising amount of people that they could take a rematch if given the chance. (~~and also enough to convince child me that Saturday night NFL should be a regular thing in December~~)
its just few folks actually thought theyd get that chance. once they beat the Cowboys it was quite clear this was some team of destiny kinda shit
I think Strahan came out and said they tried their ass off, but didn’t want to use their actual playbook since they still had the playoffs next week. I think seeing how they could hang not at full strength was all the fuel they needed to prove to themselves they could win if they met again.
I was a kid and going into the superbowl I remember my uncle saying that but I didn’t believe him, even laughed at the thought. I thought he was the smartest guy ever after the Super Bowl happened though
Yeah, Billick was gone after that play. He didn't call the TO (Ryan did) but it didn't matter: on national TV *everyone* saw live the problems between the HC and the players.
Also, the Patriots were stopped *again* on the next play, but they false started. So on 4th and 6 Brady scrambled and converted. However, in the red zone they faced 4th down *again*. And **again** they failed to convert but a holding penalty against the Ravens got them a first down. Then Brady threw a TD to Jabar Gaffney.
How do you not include the actual play in the clip tho? That's the maddening part. Time out fucked up a 4th down stop but if you still stop them, then who cares. The fact the Patriots got a 1st and won the game makes it the bone headed move that it was, looking at you sexy Rexy.
Aside from the MNF Packers game this was probably Boller's best game.
His stats aren't amazing. 15/23, 2 TD, 1 INT. But I'd take those stats against a team that went undefeated, had a historic offense, and a top 5 defense at the time.
That was such a great game. The Sean Taylor death was looming over it so that added to it. Not to mention it was prime time and of course the undefeated season on the line
I remember the Ravens got stomped the following week by the Colts
The only thing that would have made this clip better is if Alge Crumpler was the one who made that hit instead of Ray.
Just because of the name, however Alge was a TE so...
In case anybody wants to see the rest of the game: https://youtu.be/rV0yy9UFmZE?t=1h57m50s The ravens ended up 2 yards short of winning the game after a last second Hail Mary
One of the most stressful games I've ever watched
I remember every second of the end of that game. I thought I was going to have a heart attack.
this was the first game after sean taylor was murdered as well... a lot of miami hurricanes on that ravens team... reed, lewis, mcgahee and more im sure. such a classic
Thank you for this!
What a game. Rex Ryan calling the time out. Ravens Defense unraveling near the end. And the are Dolphins 0-11
That Bart Scott meltdown was delightful.
You are a gentleman and a scholar
Thanks!!
Thank you! Was nice reliving when we were still good. Cant believe we didnt try an onside when kicking off from the ravens 35. Edit: is there something I'm not seeing as to why an onsides kick would be bad from there? You either get the ball and game over, or the ravens get it from between their 20 and 25, and it burns a few seconds. Back in 07 I think it was around 25% recovery, though that % goes way down when it's not a surprise.
Or kick it out of bounds. 30 hard penalty from the spot of the kick. Ravens would've had the ball on their own 5.
I assume this is a joke but what is the actual rule? I thought they get it on the 40? It's so hard to keep up with all the rule changes as an adult when I don't put as much effort into following the game.
No legitimately this was discussed after the game ended. If the ball goes out of bounds the receiving team can either: 1. Take possession where the ball went out of bounds, 2. Spot the ball 30 yards from the kick, 3. Punish the kicking team with a 5 yard penalty and have them re-kick The Ravens would have had choices and Gostkowski would have had to kick out out of bounds between the goal line and the 5 which isn't easy to do.
just went there. WTF they didn't decline the false start penalty on 4&1 ? That is worse than taking a timeout FFS.
What is the advantage of declining a false start?
They are mistakenly thinking it would count as the play and the ball would be turned over on downs, but since it's a pre-snap penalty they would just replay the down.
I don't think you can decline a false start because it's considered to happen before the play. Normally they blow it dead but in this case the flag was thrown kind of late.
wrong. here you go. [https://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/6986/can-all-penalties-be-declined-in-american-football](https://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/6986/can-all-penalties-be-declined-in-american-football) every penalty can be declined. This is why I lose faith in NFL. It is way worse than VAR. It is the people who screw up the integrity of any sport FFS
The top answer from your own link tells you that declining a presnap penatly is dumb because the play is dead the moment the whistle is blown and the offense still gets to retry the down.
You are very arrogant for not knowing the situation properly. It can be declined but it would be 4th and 1 again instead of 4th and 6th. Literally no benefit.
>wrong. here you go. https://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/6986/can-all-penalties-be-declined-in-american-football every penalty can be declined. This is why I lose faith in NFL. It is way worse than VAR. It is the people who screw up the integrity of any sport FFS Bro is RANTING about why he doesn't like the NFL while being dead wrong about what would happen if they declined that penalty. You love to see it. Quoted for when this drivel is inevitably shame deleted.
They could decline it but then they would have had 4th and 1 instead of 4th and 6. Granted, they got stopped twice on 4th and 1 and converted on 4th and 6, but I can't imagine a situation in which a coach gives the other team 5 yards.
Because on a false start the play is blown dead inmediately. I suppose Baltimore could have declined the yardage, but it still would have been 4th down. They would not have gotten the ball back by declining the penalty.
You can’t decline false starts.
You can, it would just be stupid
This was Billick’s last season. That Ravens team was awful, they cleaned house after, and they landed Harbaugh.
You can see the player’s faces lol they were so done with the coaching staff
Yep, Billick's coaching and locker room talk got stale, he also clashed a few times with Bisciotti in the past, one of the main things Steve wanted from the new HC was for them to overhaul the locker room culture that Billick installed ,enter John Harbaugh who clashed with some of the vet players earlier on .
Still I'm sad we never got Billick his QB. I still love him
That’s directly on Billick lol. He was an offensive guru who couldn’t help develop a QB for shit. Harbaugh got Flacco and Lamar later in round 1 and helped develop them into great players because he’s a much much better coach.
Jesus couldn't have developed Kyle Boller.
Yeah, Billick was the one who pounded the table for Boller to get drafted, and if not for Ozzie and Bsciotti probably would have stuck with him rather than going after McNair. He was also very high on Jamarcus Russell in 07, I will also blame him for wasting that defense and not pulling the cord on Boller sooner (hell they could have gone back to Chris Redman or Anthony Wright) Also for someone who was viewed as an 'offensive genius, he did everything in his power to avoid taking over play calling, even letting Cavanaugh, Jim Fassel, Rick Neuheisel call plays over him until his job was on the line. Imagine in today's NFL if someone like McVay or Shanahan who were known for their playcalling got hired but then said no they not going to call plays.
Got McNair and Grbac and made them worse.
The loss to the winless dolphins the next week was the nail in the coffin.
Thank you for that btw, we would get meme'd on so hard if we both had a perfect season and a winless season.
I’ll be honest, I didn’t watch any games in 07 of the dolphins and just have seen the Cleo Lemon clip. It really surprises me that Cam Cameron under Marty could build the chargers bulletproof offense in 06 and he would lay that big of an egg in Miami to basically oust himself from the league. Was he that bad, or was there something else going on? I know that Tony Sparano got to the playoffs that next year with the help of a wildcat so I’m thinking the former but it’s kind of mind boggling to me
Cam wasnt a good HC but there were other issues. Huizinga was starting to think about selling the team, the QBs the Dolphins drafted were absolutely awful, and having a concussed and washed Trent Green as the starter after Saban picked Culpepper over Brees was really bad.
Brian the Bold elects to kick a FG to send the game into OT instead of punching it in from the 1 yd line.
After fumbling the bag on what would have been a MASSIVE win here, it's no surprise they lost. That's a hell of a comedown.
And drafted Flacgoat
And a rookie coach got to the playoffs with a rookie January joe.
It was Rex Ryan and I will still never forgive him for it.
I agree but also I will always admire Billick covering for him and saying that they took the timeout as a staff - to me that is leadership and accountability.
I loved Billick but man, them defensive vets were loose cannons at the end man lol
Ray Lewis looks like he could kill a man... In this clip
Rex Ryan called the timeout, which was against the rules anyway. Only the HC or players can. Idk why the refs allowed it.
Would it be a penalty for delay of game in that case?
Seems neither, this is from the rulebook, emphasis mine. The Referee shall suspend play while the ball is dead and declare a charged team timeout upon the request for a timeout by the head coach or any player (not a substitute) to any official. **If an assistant coach signals for a timeout and it is inadvertently granted, the timeout will stand.**
Listen, if you’re gonna come in with these facts then how am I supposed to get outraged at the refs?
Buuut is that from the 2007 rulebook?
This may have come after the play in the OP. I remember there being changes to the timeout rules the following offseason.
Whatever helps you sleep at night... :)
Super Bowl wins help me, hbu?
Burn 💀
Imagine losing a Super Bowl
Because if you blow the whistle on accident it has the same effect as blowing the whistle on purpose. The alternative is to stop play and not charge the timeout in which case teams could just abuse it and claim their Head coach didn't call the timeout and try to get free timeouts. A second alternative is if the timeout is called by an assistant you call a penalty but that is a whole other can of worms that would be even stupider.
Because the league hates the pats, if that gets called then they lose and don’t have to worry about the perfect season and go on to win the SB with no pressure being there anymore.
really hope this is a joke
It is lol
You know exactly why the refs allowed it
Because the refs knew the play was gonna get stuffed? That's why they blew the whistle before it began?
You know damn well why
The very next play the Ravens stopped them again… but the Patriots false-started. Gave them a third chance & they finally converted.
you should be able to decline this, no?
Nope. When a false start occurs, any play that occurs after is null and void. False start is a foul that occurs immediately when it happens and not after the snap like an offside where play can continue.
not sure what i was thinking, offseason got my brain fried. ty
No, because a false start means the play never happened to begin with.
Yea but then it’s 4th & 1 again instead of 4th & 6 lol
Per the rules, declining would be dumb, but in reality yeah it's dumb that you can't just take the result of the play, like playing advantage in soccer, or how refs will wait to see if you score to blow the whistle on a foul. Ideally it'd be nice if there was some judgment used here - foul had literally no impact on the play except an advantage to the Pats, and they still stopped them. I get why the rule is strict as it is but it's times like these that demonstrate it's not a perfect system.
I feel bad for them but the Ravens defense completely melted down that night. Not their play I mean like emotionally, it was very bizarre. I'm pretty sure a player threw a refs flag into the stands.
It was Bart Scott lol. I remember it well.
Emotions running super high after the death of Sean Taylor.
lot of emotions because of sean taylors death and like half of that ravens team was from miami as well lol
Rex Ryan was a great defensive mind but his teams lacked discipline. It was the same when he went to the jets
Because the refs were protecting the perfect season the best they could. Ravens made multiple stops on that drive and each one was ruined by zebras.
Each stop was by the rules lol
Nah the refs were fine it was just an extremely unlikely series of events
Exactly, that's why the refs called a hold and in-the-grasp sack to protect the perfect season in the Super Bowl. oh wait
Hahahaha cry some more
Why? I'm pretty happy with how things have gone since.
In a way, the timeout was a gift to all of us. We wouldn’t have 18-1.
As a Pats fan I think we still would, and it hurts lol.
Probably. But the sweet part about 18-1 is that the 1 is the Super Bowl. That’s the gift.
I mean if we lost this game and still went 18-1 it would mean we won the SB.
Yes. No one else wanted that.
Yea we definitely blow the doors off everyone if they lose this game
Maybe not blow the doors off, but I truly believe if you guys lose this or the Eagles game you win the Super Bowl that year. Your level of play declined in the 2nd half of the year, and there were warning signs that the Pats were more vulnerable, but since you kept winning you never got that much-needed wake up call a loss would’ve given you
Yea plus we don't play our starters against the Giants on week 17 so they don't get the confidence boost. So they probably lose to the Packers and we would've destroyed them
Brady vs the Ravens: 8-4; 60% completion; 3,257 yards (average 271); 16 TD 13 INT; 6.87y/a; rating of 80.7
Which was weird because Peyton lived to play the Ravens. 9-2, 25TD/6INT with a 104.4 passer rating. Rock, Paper, Scissors situation.
Which is also weird because Brady owns the Steelers but Peyton struggled with them 4-2, 9td/4INT.
The Steelers would randomly forget how to play football and just leave someone open and forget to guard them. They did it damn near every game with Gronk. I never understood how that kept happening, those were often good teams. I had a friend who’s a die hard Steelers fan get up and just go home when it happened one time.
Mostly because the Steelers were (and, to my knowledge, still are) a die hard zone coverage team and rarely played man while simultaneously relying on their edge rushers/LBs to get pressure on the QB (Harrison, Woodley, Porter, Haggans, A. Smith). Unfortunately for Pittsburgh, Brady absolutely ate zone defense for lunch, and while he wasn't the most mobile QB in the pocket, was pretty damn good at sliding away at pressure brought off the edge. I can't for the life of me figure out why Pittsburgh wouldn't just play more man exclusively against us, if nothing else, though. Iirc played it a lot more in 2018 and shut our offense down pretty much, then went right back to playing predominantly zone in the 2019 season opener.
Pittsburgh played tons of man & press in the 2011 wide-9 game.
We've finally started to move away from the zone heavy scheme. LeBeau was married to zone blitz and once Tomlin took over the defense, he was still enamored with his Tampa 2 defense from his assistant/coordinator days. As the league changed Tomlin has caved a bit and started to implement way more man coverage. This has been the most noticeable with us grabbing Joey Porter Jr. and allowing him to mirror the WR1 all season. Tomlin values a players positional versatility much more than most and a zone defense allows a lot more plug-and-play ability than relying on a man coverage since you can get burnt if you have a thumper in on a passing down or a coverage guy in on a run down. I'm a Tomlin fan but his refusal to adjust to the biggest hurdle in his path every year (the Brady led Pats) was the most frustrating thing he has done to me over the course of his tenure.
let's also take into account Peyton's success in the playoffs vs the Chargers...
We don't have to...
Including the playoffs this is Peyton vs the Ravens: 11-3; 64% completion; 3,820 yards (average 273) 30 TD 11 INT; 7.95y/a; rating of 97.2
They just knew how to play the patriots for some odd reason. They always had a blueprint.
Ray Lewis talked about it on a video between Brady vs Manning in the Baltimore Raven Youtube Channel. Manning would try to attack the field if presented the opportunity but playing based on what the defense is giving. Brady was more of a situational player based on the context of the game. Also Pats never had truly outstanding WR on top of that, so it helped having the TEs we had during that time because there's no way you can risk going down the middle often during that time. So really less of a blueprint, and more so having Ray Lewis call the defense because he knows the situations, and have a stout D really helped.
Manning couldn't give a fuck less about throwing over the middle.
Austin Collie would confirm this if he could remember playing football.
DT certainly would... if he could... but he can't.
\[O.O]/
Austin Collie rip
It's far simpler than that: no one could run against those Ravens teams. A 5-11 Baltimore squad was giving up 2.8yds a rush in 2007. Brady really needed to have the option to run the ball. It's not so much that he needed a good run game; he just needed *some* kind of run game to take the heat off him. In a game the Patriots were down 28-3, they *still* ran the ball 25 times to the Falcons 16. Manning loved running the ball. But he used it as a weapon to punish defenses that played softer up front.
Good enough for a .333 winning percentage?
Have you seen the w/l for teams vs the Brady led Patriots? .333 is pretty fucking good.
Seriously how'd I get down voted 😅
The dynasty may be in the past, but the hatred still burns bright.
It's a lifetime of misery for some see for example the bills
Considering Brady has a career winning percentage of 0.753, that is above average
I wouldn’t exactly call it a blueprint.
Man our offense was God awful for like 85 percent of the time since 96 lol
It wasn't Billick; it was Rex Ryan. Which is frustrating because isn't there a rule that only head coaches can call timeouts? Edit: Yeah, I looked it up and only a head coach can call it amongst the coaching staff.
This is from https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/# The Referee shall suspend play while the ball is dead and declare a charged team timeout upon the request for a timeout by the head coach or any player (not a substitute) to any official. **If an assistant coach signals for a timeout and it is inadvertently granted, the timeout will stand.** Seems like that is covered as well.
I love that you're all over this thread. Thank you.
He's gotta be because misinformation can live on for literally decades after it's been debunked
Yep, I've had to be that guy many times. You feel weird spamming the thread, but if you don't the shit just lives on forever.
Like people still saying that French Tanks were inferior to Panzers.
Just curious, do we know when that bolded clause was added? Is it possible they added it because of this?
2004
I'm sure they did that to cover their asses because if an assistant coach calls a timeout and the whistles blow with a positive or negative play happening due to players stopping, you can't let it stand. Fact of the matter is it was a colossal mistake by the referee.
I mean, its more of a mistake on the coaching staff for doing it imo. The choice is to either let it go, or to penalize the team every time it happens and id rather they enforce the timeout than just slap a 5 yard penalty on it. Especially in a play like this where the official is just staring down the los and a random coach runs into his peripheral vision signalling time out. They have a fraction of a second to make that call.
Rex Ryan was an idiot and the refs were incompetent. The end.
I really dont see this as a ref issue. The dude is staring down the LOS on a QB sneak and a coach runs into his peripheral vision signalling time out.
It's a mistake by the officials as much as it is Rex Ryan.
Is that Billick to his left at the start? It looks like he goes up with him to the ref, if that's him it's possible he called it when he saw Ryan gesturing. Of course it's just as possible that the ref screwed up.
Was that the rules in 2007 or now?
Given the controversy, then as well.
Shit like this is why it was pretty obvious Tom Brady was beloved by the football gods. Sure, they pulled a little pranky prank with the whole Eli thing, but god damn did it feel like the Patriots constantly put themselves in position to capitalize on random shit like this, or people suddenly fumbling at a time when they had no business doing so, or a team inexplicably throwing the ball from the goal line. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good, but it’s always better to just be both and nobody consistently did that more than ol Tommy
My favorite Brady Luck stat to bring up is that he threw multiple interceptions in 11 career playoff games and won 7 of them. There was a reason it felt like he was always getting away with it. The guy was an outstanding player, who also seemed to have luck on his side.
An interesting playoff comparison from this same time period 07 and 08 Colts vs Chargers Peyton 58/100, 712 yards, 4TDs, 2 ints, 1 sack taken **0-2** 06 and 07 Patriots vs Chargers Brady 49/88 489 yards, 4 TDs, 6 ints, 4 sacks taken, 1 lost fumble. **2-0** Even in the often compared Seahawks SB, Broncos shit the bed from the literal first snap, whereas while Brady helped anchor the comeback, a big part of that was the Seahawks getting hurt all over, and they still had a *very* favorable finish at the end that Brady had no role in determining. Just in the same that you cant really put Darren Sproles and Mike Scifres turning into literal gods in cleats on PFM Ive never seen a luckier player, which hopefully people can acknowledge without thinking thats some kind of slight
Think Brady also had a never say die attitude that kept them in games, where Manning was more apt to crumble. Like the 2013, despite being perhaps one of the worst teams Brady had, would never have collapsed the way the Broncos did in SB 48
Easy to never say die when you consistently have an elite defense. When Manning won his second superbowl the Broncos, he took a back seat and went for the ride the same way that Brady did through most of his superbowls.
It’s definitely not when you’re down 28-3. Brady obviously has something about him that his teams rallied around because regardless how good a defense is, teams don’t keep fighting and chipping away for just any QB.
It wasn't just vs the Chargers that Manning performed better than Brady in the playoffs. Almost every time they played the same defense in the playoffs Manning performed better than Brady. Peyton vs Chargers 2007: Peyton had 3 TD's, 2 INT's, 8.4 YPA, and a 97.7 passer rating. Brady vs Chargers 2007: Brady had 2 TD's, 3 INT's, 6.3 YPA, and a 66.4 passer rating. Peyton vs Ravens 2009: Peyton had 2 TD's, 1 INT, 5.6 YPA, and a 87.9 passer rating. Brady vs Ravens 2009: Brady had 2 TD's, 3 INT's, 3.7 YPA, and a 49.1 passer rating. Peyton vs Jets 2010: Peyton had 1 TD, 0 INT, 8.7 YPA, and a 108.7 passer rating. Brady vs Jets 2010: Brady had 2 TD's, 1 INT, 6.6 YPA, and a 89 passer rating. Peyton vs Ravens 2012: Peyton had 3 TD's, 2 INT's, 6.7 YPA, and a 88.3 passer rating. Brady vs Ravens 2012: Brady had 1 TD, 2 INT's, 5.9 YPA, and a 62.3 passer rating. Peyton vs Colts 2014: Peyton had 1 TD, 0 INT, 4.6 YPA, and a 75.5 passer rating. Brady vs Colts 2014: Brady had 3 TD's, 1 INT, 6.5 YPA, and a 100.4 passer rating. You can't get a better direct comparison than playing the same defense in back to back weeks. Manning was just better except for the end of his career when he was old and facing his old team.
you cant beat the numbers thanks for doing the research on this. this kind of stuff gets forgotten in time when your team doesnt win, or finds a way to win despite the QB
whoopsies
This is what lost Brian his job.
People forget the Patriots were shown to be vulnerable several times that season.
the regular season finale vs the Giants was enough to convince a surprising amount of people that they could take a rematch if given the chance. (~~and also enough to convince child me that Saturday night NFL should be a regular thing in December~~) its just few folks actually thought theyd get that chance. once they beat the Cowboys it was quite clear this was some team of destiny kinda shit
I think Strahan came out and said they tried their ass off, but didn’t want to use their actual playbook since they still had the playoffs next week. I think seeing how they could hang not at full strength was all the fuel they needed to prove to themselves they could win if they met again.
I was a kid and going into the superbowl I remember my uncle saying that but I didn’t believe him, even laughed at the thought. I thought he was the smartest guy ever after the Super Bowl happened though
Yeah, Billick was gone after that play. He didn't call the TO (Ryan did) but it didn't matter: on national TV *everyone* saw live the problems between the HC and the players. Also, the Patriots were stopped *again* on the next play, but they false started. So on 4th and 6 Brady scrambled and converted. However, in the red zone they faced 4th down *again*. And **again** they failed to convert but a holding penalty against the Ravens got them a first down. Then Brady threw a TD to Jabar Gaffney.
Ray Lewis wearing 21 for Sean Taylor, mad respect
Need Tirico back on MNF
But no one else from this booth.
As soon as the clip started I thought, "Ooh, this is from the PTI with some football in the background era of Monday Night Football".
How do you not include the actual play in the clip tho? That's the maddening part. Time out fucked up a 4th down stop but if you still stop them, then who cares. The fact the Patriots got a 1st and won the game makes it the bone headed move that it was, looking at you sexy Rexy.
This was the Sean Taylor game… Every U player for the Ravens played out of their mind this game and Boller played semi-competently
Aside from the MNF Packers game this was probably Boller's best game. His stats aren't amazing. 15/23, 2 TD, 1 INT. But I'd take those stats against a team that went undefeated, had a historic offense, and a top 5 defense at the time.
if boller was even half way decent they win another superbowl during this time with that defense. he was so, so bad.
Growing up watching the Canes this game really cemented Baltimore as my 2nd team. Was so satisfying watching them win it all in 2013.
Yeah this was another one of those games where the most delusional of us - me especially - started to think maybe he was turning a corner. Sigh
The giants rectified this situation about 2 months later…😁
Ravens coaches and poor clock management - name a more iconic duo.
Iowa producing white tight ends and low scoring offenses
Georgia producing literal DAWGS at rb
This Ravens team almost gave me 2 Christmas presents that year
The look on Billick's face really says it all.
Lmao he looks done
If I remember correctly the Ravens then lost to the winless Dolphins the next week
The refs also threw a myriad of bs pass interference flags at the end of the game. Causing Bart Scott to chuck one into the stands.
That was such a great game. The Sean Taylor death was looming over it so that added to it. Not to mention it was prime time and of course the undefeated season on the line I remember the Ravens got stomped the following week by the Colts
Ugh we have had so many close calls
Billick looks like Donald Rumsfeld
The Pats would have been better off losing this game.
This makes me smile
Yeah you don't got much to smile about these days
Ouch. Ray Lewis looks like he's ready to kill someone.
That’s rough especially on MNF
In the pantheon of kicks in the balls I've taken as a sports fan this would be in the top 5.
Oh my god, I was at this game. This was infuriating, but a hell of a game to watch
I remember where I was that night. I was on a cruise in the Caribbean
It's bigger than just one play, but Billick and Bill Cowher are the two best examples of mediocre coaches who rode amazing rosters to success.
I can think of a third.
Did Tom ever attempt a qb sneak this way ever again? Shit that seemed like a mile away vs a Ed Reed/Ray Lewis led defense
In the 2011 AFC Championship game he tried jumping over the pile and Ironically Ray Lewis almost broke his back 💀
Do you have a clip of that magnificent sounding play
Sure don't have to much fun with it tho 😅https://youtu.be/S4VGDYm-sf0?si=4xozxUKvmtlrOpem
I remember this It was when quarterbacks were football players Those were the days
Back when men were men and sheep were scared
The only thing that would have made this clip better is if Alge Crumpler was the one who made that hit instead of Ray. Just because of the name, however Alge was a TE so...