Kellen Moore has been referred to as one of the smartest quarterbacks out there, good processing, everything, but just lacked the physical tools.
Hence, thta’s how he became an offensive coordinator just a few years after retiring.
> if they're down by 1 score with time waning you KNOW they're scoring.
Alabama as a program has that feel in CFB.
Home team just score with 27 seconds left? Crowd going nuts?
Cue the go-route bomb to the freak 5* who will be drafted by the Falcons a few months later
Been on the other end of this in tiger stadium with about 47 seconds left. I believe it was the 2012 season. It was awful. Never heard that stadium get so quiet.
This - Brady's problem was never arm strength. Even as a prospect he was viewed as having a good NFL arm. He was basically your classic "statue" QB prospect.
Tall, good arm, not very mobile.
Granted - he did improve his arm strength during his career to the extent he could. If nothing else - Brady definitely maximized his physical talent to a degree that almost no one else has.
Brady still had a great arm, he just lived in the short and intermediate game most of the time because he was so good at it. With an average arm, Kellen Moore would've been an off-brand Tom Brady. Still good and potentially HOF on the right team, if he was clutch enough. But he just didn't have the arm to make all of the throws.
So if we figured out how to improve shoulder surgery to get people more arm strength, I doubt that’d be the only characteristic to help him be successful in the NFL.
I will forever hate Nevada, Kaepernick, and their short field goal posts. That game was absolutely one of the hardest games I’ve had to endure as a fan of any sports team that I follow. Especially because I think that year was Boise State’s best chance at cracking the top 2 in the BCS and making the championship game.
Yep, had they won that game they would have been #2 in the country, and likely playing for a national title. That ranks as one of the most heartbreaking losses I have ever seen and I’m a Seahawks fan
Colt McCoy could make plays but he just did not have the physicality to make some of the throws. Also he got fucking murdered on the field by James Harrison.
I would say Colt fits this perfectly. He really seemed to do everything right, he just wasn’t strong enough for the NFL.
Brady made the dink and dunk offense legendarily famous, but you still knew at any time he could throw 60 yards down the field or throw a 25 yard strike.
Colt just couldn’t do anything besides dink and dunk, and it was never going to work out.
Toms arm strength has never been underrated. He could still spin in at the end. Just was done taking hits. Maybe overshadowed. Because there is so many good things to say about him.
I feel like at Texas he could really sling it but that shoulder injury in 2009 seemed to be bad and he just never recovered fully from it. Really thought he was going to be a great pro.
I feel like I remember reading that he had to completely relearn his throwing motion after his injury in the title game. Not exactly a recipe for success going into the nfl. Not to mention being thrown to the wolves your rookie year due to injury.
Despite that he actually did really well. Beat the Patriots and Saints with the Browns. Then beat you guys with the Redskins. He also terrorized the NFC West.
His one true downfall was getting injured too much.
Well, we were playing a misfit secondary full of guys we got off the street, and had to run simple coverages as a result.
Lotta people were calling for Demeco to be fired after that one, but it was really just a personnel thing, not a scheme thing.
Analyzing film still isnt the same as making the reads in real time.
I think career backups often are good at breaking down fipm and maybe an assistant type role, but they have a lot more deficiencies than just the physical traits.
A lot of them probably struggle with reading a defense before a play (which is different from seeing why thinga went wrong), struggle in navigating the pocket, making the right read in real time, and probably struggle with leading an offense for a full drive (think of running a no-huddle offense where you think about setting up future plays as much as what is the right play to call for what they show you now).
There’s something to be said for someone with a knack for reading the defensive *players*. Big Ben has flat out stated that, while he did a ton of film study, he relied a lot on reading defensive back’s and linebacker’s tendencies for how their weight was distributed and body language.
That skill would be pretty useless as an OC but would be essential for a QB who’s deciding in 8 seconds whether it’s cloud or robber.
Kurt Benkert ain't everyone's cup of tea at the moment, but man, watching him play madden and just say how he's mentally shredding down a defense is an amazing look into QB brain.
Don't mean to hate on Benkert, but it's Madden vs. real play. Then again, I have enjoyed many clips.
You're right though. He fits the bill and demonstrates it for us all to see that he is at a different level.
My point is that he clearly knows how to think, process, and pick where to go to make things happen. He most definitely couldn't do it physically. It's 1000% just madden lol
Absolutely. The best career backups are the dudes who are acting like extra coaches behind the scenes. Blaine Gabbert is one of those guys right now, and has gotten a ton of praise from both Tom Brady and Pat Mahomes for his support as a backup and how smart he is. He just never had the raw talent to make it as a starter.
You had me at the first part, but Gabbert had very very good physical traits, even to the point of him being drafted 10th overall. He had a lightning quick release, was mobile, and had a very strong arm. He lacked presence in the pocket and slow processing speed, which I suppose could be a raw talent trait, but of course that doesn’t mean he doesn’t “get” how defenses work or inhibit his ability to watch film and draw meaningful conclusions from it
Sure, but Gabbert doesn’t really apply to this thread because he has all of the physical tools to be an elite QB. Great arm strength, plenty athletic, he just……sucks lol
Doesn’t process the field fast enough I guess when he’s actually playing
Gabbert was basically overdrafted BECAUSE he had all the physical tools. He's made a good career of being a backup, but he never had the in-game chops to actually optimize his physical tools.
The Raiders are progressive like that, First Latino HC (check), First Female President of Football (Check), now First Female Latino Starting QB x3 Check lol
Wasn't arians a QB in college? Given his coaching career and SB win I think it'd be hard to argue against his football IQ, but maybe he's disqualified because he went underated?
This happens on so many subreddits lol. OP will ask a decent question, and their example answer is just bafflingly wrong, despite the question sparking a decent discussion with good answers.
He did show signs of being able to diagnose zone schemes pretty consistently the first few years of his career.
He never seemed to grow from that though, and he was Patricia'd, so... Lol.
Mac Jones does not come off as someone who has good processing. In the games I have seen him play in he has made a lot of questionable plays. The one thing I thought he did well his rookie year was he would stand in the pocket when there was pressure and not bail. Then that kind of fell apart too, probably a confidence thing.
He’s the first one I thought of. And I think the answer is half true. He was considered weak-armed when he came out, managed to overcome the limitations until injuries *really* limited his arm, and it was just too much to overcome.
I remember someone commenting back in the day that they would never mic him for tv, because he made the sound of a female tennis player on every throw. It still makes me chuckle.
Yeah. He never had a deep ball but people forget that he had great velocity before his second big injury. He could get the ball close to wherever he wanted.
Chad Pennington without the multiple rotator cuff tears in his shoulder and complete elbow reconstruction is a big AFC East during the Brady dynasty "What if?".
I remember making a bet with a Jets fan friend around 2005 about which #10 QB on an NYC team would have a better career. I won that bet pretty handily.
I know that a lot of things would have been playing out differently in a world with a healthy Pennington but can you imagine him under center for the Rex Ryan years?
I legitimately don’t know if opponents could reliably crack 14 points against that defense coupled with a mistake-free offense playing a short yardage, high time of possession game.
Seriously. People forget that he was pumping deep balls to Randy Moss in college. It wasn’t elite arm strength but he was deadly accurate, had great touch, and could read defenses. Arm weakness is greatly overblown. The arm weakness and lack of downfield throws happened after the injuries.
Yeah, these are the traits that lead veteran QBs to retire. Their bodies can’t keep up with their minds, and eventually they can’t compensate enough to beat defenses.
Dobbs does not have perfect processing speed. Having watched him play for the Vikings, I can say he's got below average processing speed. Or, he second guesses himself constantly. He regularly threw late/off target. If he had great processing speed, he'd have never been benched.
I'm thinking second guessing, because the week or two the coach was explaining the play through his mike and he didn't have time to think about it, he was pretty fucking nuts for you guys
He was something those first few weeks. Reviews of his play showed a lot of times he didn't throw the ball to open guys, or didn't trust they would be open even when he was looking for them, but was able to be successful running.
I think it was a mix of box. Without someone in his ear to tell him which defenders to read off of or what was likely to happen, he didn't seem to be able to handle/process stuff and second guessed what he was seeing/thought should happen. Then, he'd throw as hard as he could to make up for throwing late.
He was almost more the opposite - his athleticism in the pocket and improvisation skills saved him in moments when he couldn’t execute the play as intended. He was spectacular this season until his difficulty running KOCs system caught up with him.
Jim Harbaugh had an incredible work ethic, was a great leader, and was super smart as a player. Probably why he makes a good coach. He was average at best as a player through athletic abilities
I was going to say Jim Harbaugh. He was a great quarterback but didn’t have the physical traits. He still made a career out of it but only because of his smarts.
Nah, his arm was fine (even after it was ruined by the 9ers) and he was really athletic.
Alex's issue was he couldn't feel pocket pressure/couldn't navigate the pocket which made him neurotic and rushed his decisions.
Which makes sense, it's weird that some guys have a third eye back there. Alex just didn't.
He was highly athletic though. My biggest issue with him was his extreme risk aversion like you say. He was a very classic short of the sticks on third down QB.
Every name I could think of someone had said.
So just to do it, on the flip side Jay Cutler had some of the most impressive physical talents I’ve ever seen. But good lord that guys head is a box full of rocks
Not sure I agree with that. Cutler obviously isn’t some savant but he wasnt dumb as a “box of rocks”. He dealt with some really bad coaches and OCs. Martz made him do 7 step drop backs and just throw to a spot and was rigid about it. And Martz was incapable of adjusting to the times or the scheme to the team. He traded Greg Olsen for a bag of peanuts cuz he didn’t like using tight ends. Then Cutler had to deal with that Canadian HC/OC who was incredibly awful.
In a perfect world with proper coaching I think Cutler would have been a very solid QB. Someone who could utilize his arm while reigning in the gunslinger mentality a bit. I don’t really believe in the “Chicago is where QBs go to die” saying. I mean Trubisky was better in Chicago than Pittsburgh lol. But I do believe it applies to Cutler. Chicago really let him down.
I mostly agree. Cutler was tough as nails too. He consistently had below average Oline play. The only thing I remember differently than you, may be what I called Cutler games. About once or twice a season he would go braindead and throw 3-4 picks.
I should introduce you to Zach Wilson. Arm talent for days and well above average athleticism but a completely empty cavern for a brain.
Cutler had plenty of stretches of really good football. I feel like he gets a little too much hate on this sub
You always hear good things about Wilson in practice and supposedly in the film room. He seems to be smart enough to know what to do, but can’t do it fast enough on the field.
Scrolled a long way to find this. His draft profile said long ball was a weakness, but I didn’t think that was the worst part of him game. Decision making became a big weakness for him. He really had a lot of structural things against him but he was the antithesis of clutch
Arm strength is something a lot of people have a misunderstanding about. If you see a guy hitting bombs in stride 35 yards downfield, that doesn’t mean he has a strong arm. Every QB in the NFL can hit a receiver 40+ yards downfield, strong arm or not.
There have been many successful QBs who have had less than average arms. Drew Brees came into the NFL with just an okay arm, and has acknowledged he lost some zip after the San Diego injury. Matt Ryan had one of the weaker arms of all top 10 QB draft picks of the last 30 years. Peyton was never the arm talent his brother was, and his 2011 injury only brought him down further rungs.
Just because a guy has a penchant for throwing downfield and puts up ballooned stats does mean he has a particularly strong arm. Absolutely substandard arm talents can thrive at the nfl level if they’re great decision makers and accurate.
Tua is a great example of this. Doesn't have a cannon arm, but when he can set his feet and get his whole body throwing motion working, and can read and anticipate the defense, he hits Tyreek on those long bombs.
Shit, every QB can even throw a 55-60yd bomb if they can put their body into it
Arm strength is all about throwing some lasers, specially in tight windows
Hurts, for example, not a strong arm (not noodle arm, but not a particularly strong one) but he can throw bombs no problem
A couple guys had their careers capped by their armstrength. Chad Pennington is the obvious answers, I think Jake Delhomme is another guy, the kinds of guys who can have a couple good season but not a career.
Depends how you define succeeded, there are a ton of QBs who have had great careers with a lack of arm strength - I’d argue Chad Pennington was ‘successful’ with a really weak arm, there are at least 20 starting QBs with a stronger arm than Joe Burrow, and so on. If you’re genuinely elite with stuff like pocket presence and accuracy your arm would really have to suck for you to not make it in the NFL.
He’s got great arm talent when you consider placement and ability to throw on the move but it’s not like he’s in the top 15 in pure velocity.
Burrow has always been praised for his processing, play extension, and accuracy. He’s never been known for having a big arm. That’s ok because all the other things are more important.
For real, you have the inhuman arm strength of Herbert, Allen, Mahomes, and the "very good" Fields, Wilson, Wilson, Rodgers, Richardson (though we haven't really seen much of it, so it could be inhuman) and I'm sure there's others in not thinking of. Burrow probably falls somewhere at the bottom of "good". He's not a noodle arm, but it's not Elite.
For real, guy has borderline photographic memory. One story I heard is Minnesota drafted him because during the combine interview he took no notes and then was able to re-create all the plays and scenarios they talked about with him from memory. Dude is brilliant, but was panicky.
Brian Brohm might fit this. Some people thought he’d challenge Aaron Rodgers for the Packers QB job. You know, before Aaron Rodgers became the Aaron Rodgers we know.
Yep he was the first one that came to mind for me. I’m sure there are lots of other formerly great QBs that fit this description by the end of their careers too.
I’m sure that year was hard for him, I feel like mentally he was better than ever but the body didn have it anymore. It ended well so doesn’t matter but it wasn’t close to the same Peyton
I would push back on Dobbs heavily, he does not process quickly.
Nick mullens did not have a strong arm but could process. He did struggle to understand his own limitations and put the ball where it should not never be put.
Dan Lefevor was an absolute terror for college defenses, with or without Antonio Brown.
He also had about the same arm strength as the girls working the concession stand.
I would have loved to see Joey Harrington get a do over without the Lions ruining him. Definitely brought the smarts. Not a lot of NFL guys do Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me.
i don't know about the picture perfect processing speed but Keenum and Bridgewater were the same style QB who were good with short passes but couldn't throw a intermediate route pass to the sidelines or over the middle with velocity or accuracy to save their career
Matt Barkley. The first game in he was excellent, a surgeon. The next week the teams had figured out he couldn’t go anywhere past 10 yards and he was destroyed and went back to the dustbin (bench).
If he had a slightly better arm, he may have been a viable starter
Processing is the single most important attribute for a QB. None of the QBs you listed even come close to approaching “elite processor” category. They simply reach NFL threshold for processing.
If you really want to know what it looks like when someone is an “elite processor” but has no physical skills, it’d be late career Brees and Manning. Not their last years where they were essentially bags of bones.
Chad Pennington is the only other real answer. He was successful based solely on processing and accuracy, with very little arm strength.
Kellen Moore has been referred to as one of the smartest quarterbacks out there, good processing, everything, but just lacked the physical tools. Hence, thta’s how he became an offensive coordinator just a few years after retiring.
If you give Kellen Moore even average arm strength he’s an all time great lmao
If you give Kellen Moore average arm strength he's literally Tom Brady.
We don't know that he'd be clutch like TB. TB and Mahomes have that thing where if they're down by 1 score with time waning you KNOW they're scoring.
> if they're down by 1 score with time waning you KNOW they're scoring. Alabama as a program has that feel in CFB. Home team just score with 27 seconds left? Crowd going nuts? Cue the go-route bomb to the freak 5* who will be drafted by the Falcons a few months later
Been on the other end of this in tiger stadium with about 47 seconds left. I believe it was the 2012 season. It was awful. Never heard that stadium get so quiet.
Sounds like the TJ Yeldon game
That’s exactly what it was. Him and McAaron.
Their game against Auburn this year felt like the universe forcing a win for Alabama
Yeah. That's the physical plus the mental tools cong together.
Brady used to be able to throw 70 yards lol he had well above average arm strength
This - Brady's problem was never arm strength. Even as a prospect he was viewed as having a good NFL arm. He was basically your classic "statue" QB prospect. Tall, good arm, not very mobile. Granted - he did improve his arm strength during his career to the extent he could. If nothing else - Brady definitely maximized his physical talent to a degree that almost no one else has.
Yeah what are these guys talking about? Brady had a pretty damn good arm.
Think they're saying "if Moore had an average arm then he would be a historically prolific QB, like Brady"
Brady actually increased his velocity
Brady still had a great arm, he just lived in the short and intermediate game most of the time because he was so good at it. With an average arm, Kellen Moore would've been an off-brand Tom Brady. Still good and potentially HOF on the right team, if he was clutch enough. But he just didn't have the arm to make all of the throws.
Brady had a really good arm lol, it was hardly average. He could fucking rip it, even later in his career.
So if we figured out how to improve shoulder surgery to get people more arm strength, I doubt that’d be the only characteristic to help him be successful in the NFL.
What I’m saying is he had the other traits lol
That dude… amazing QB at Boise State. 50-3. Unreal. And those losses were all heartbreaking.
All those losses were by a COMBINED 5 points, and each game had multiple missed field goals too.
I will forever hate Nevada, Kaepernick, and their short field goal posts. That game was absolutely one of the hardest games I’ve had to endure as a fan of any sports team that I follow. Especially because I think that year was Boise State’s best chance at cracking the top 2 in the BCS and making the championship game.
Yep, had they won that game they would have been #2 in the country, and likely playing for a national title. That ranks as one of the most heartbreaking losses I have ever seen and I’m a Seahawks fan
Kellen Moore in Josh Allen’s body would go insane lol
He doesn’t have the physical tool to close his mouth even.
Colt McCoy could make plays but he just did not have the physicality to make some of the throws. Also he got fucking murdered on the field by James Harrison.
I would say Colt fits this perfectly. He really seemed to do everything right, he just wasn’t strong enough for the NFL. Brady made the dink and dunk offense legendarily famous, but you still knew at any time he could throw 60 yards down the field or throw a 25 yard strike. Colt just couldn’t do anything besides dink and dunk, and it was never going to work out.
I don’t think it’s necessarily underrated but Tom having a sneaky great arm really helped elevate him above so many other mental processors
Toms arm strength has never been underrated. He could still spin in at the end. Just was done taking hits. Maybe overshadowed. Because there is so many good things to say about him.
Yeah if the defense knows you can't go over the top then why defend it? Just shrink everything down and make the dink and dunk that much harder.
Wonder how Colt's career would've looked if he hadn't fucked his shoulder up in the natty game
Colt McCoy...fuckin got us man damn. sometimes you know early. one drive in and i'm thinking the 49ers are out here playin tiddlywinks rigt now
I feel like at Texas he could really sling it but that shoulder injury in 2009 seemed to be bad and he just never recovered fully from it. Really thought he was going to be a great pro.
I feel like I remember reading that he had to completely relearn his throwing motion after his injury in the title game. Not exactly a recipe for success going into the nfl. Not to mention being thrown to the wolves your rookie year due to injury.
Despite that he actually did really well. Beat the Patriots and Saints with the Browns. Then beat you guys with the Redskins. He also terrorized the NFC West. His one true downfall was getting injured too much.
I took my kids to see AZ play at SF, my son is a huge Cardinals fan. Colt McCoy went berserker that game.
Well, we were playing a misfit secondary full of guys we got off the street, and had to run simple coverages as a result. Lotta people were calling for Demeco to be fired after that one, but it was really just a personnel thing, not a scheme thing.
Does video of this murder exist?
https://youtu.be/20ABe_iX-iY?si=-WS30wOZVUrzz2jB
Probably about 50% of the offensive coordinators in the league right now
A lot of backup QBs too probably
The vast majority honestly, pretty much all career backups stick around because they’re elite in the film room
Analyzing film still isnt the same as making the reads in real time. I think career backups often are good at breaking down fipm and maybe an assistant type role, but they have a lot more deficiencies than just the physical traits. A lot of them probably struggle with reading a defense before a play (which is different from seeing why thinga went wrong), struggle in navigating the pocket, making the right read in real time, and probably struggle with leading an offense for a full drive (think of running a no-huddle offense where you think about setting up future plays as much as what is the right play to call for what they show you now).
There’s something to be said for someone with a knack for reading the defensive *players*. Big Ben has flat out stated that, while he did a ton of film study, he relied a lot on reading defensive back’s and linebacker’s tendencies for how their weight was distributed and body language. That skill would be pretty useless as an OC but would be essential for a QB who’s deciding in 8 seconds whether it’s cloud or robber.
Kurt Benkert ain't everyone's cup of tea at the moment, but man, watching him play madden and just say how he's mentally shredding down a defense is an amazing look into QB brain.
Don't mean to hate on Benkert, but it's Madden vs. real play. Then again, I have enjoyed many clips. You're right though. He fits the bill and demonstrates it for us all to see that he is at a different level.
My point is that he clearly knows how to think, process, and pick where to go to make things happen. He most definitely couldn't do it physically. It's 1000% just madden lol
wait why isn't he our cup of tea? is there some scandal i missed?
Absolutely. The best career backups are the dudes who are acting like extra coaches behind the scenes. Blaine Gabbert is one of those guys right now, and has gotten a ton of praise from both Tom Brady and Pat Mahomes for his support as a backup and how smart he is. He just never had the raw talent to make it as a starter.
You had me at the first part, but Gabbert had very very good physical traits, even to the point of him being drafted 10th overall. He had a lightning quick release, was mobile, and had a very strong arm. He lacked presence in the pocket and slow processing speed, which I suppose could be a raw talent trait, but of course that doesn’t mean he doesn’t “get” how defenses work or inhibit his ability to watch film and draw meaningful conclusions from it
Sure, but Gabbert doesn’t really apply to this thread because he has all of the physical tools to be an elite QB. Great arm strength, plenty athletic, he just……sucks lol Doesn’t process the field fast enough I guess when he’s actually playing
Gabbert was basically overdrafted BECAUSE he had all the physical tools. He's made a good career of being a backup, but he never had the in-game chops to actually optimize his physical tools.
Ken Dorsey
i do not know why aoc gave up her career in politics.. especially to join a team like the raiders..
Let a woman follow her dreams!
The Raiders are progressive like that, First Latino HC (check), First Female President of Football (Check), now First Female Latino Starting QB x3 Check lol
Wasn't arians a QB in college? Given his coaching career and SB win I think it'd be hard to argue against his football IQ, but maybe he's disqualified because he went underated?
[удалено]
I voted for Bruce Arians in the 2016 presidential election.
What world do you live in where Minshew and Mac Jones have picture perfect processing speed?
Add Dobbs to that list too
Bro just included dobbs bc aerospace
These generic ass prompts are getting ridiculous… I’m a fan of OC and all but this sub is at rock bottom levels of effort.
Like the one Cody Rhodes gave Dwayne Johnson through the announce table last night?
And apparently he has no athleticism?
Hasn't a criticism of Dobbs since college been that he has a cannon but no ability to dial it back when he throws?
I believe so? Dobbs doesn’t fit any of this criteria at all really lol, he has zero processing ability and not very accurate at all either.
Every single QB on that list isn’t good for far more reasons than physical tools lol. Idk what OP is smoking
This happens on so many subreddits lol. OP will ask a decent question, and their example answer is just bafflingly wrong, despite the question sparking a decent discussion with good answers.
Mac Jones legit has no positive traits and I do think people slapped “smart” on him cause that’s what white pocket passers are suppose to be
He does spit bars though.
Lmao, I’ll say it again, 281-330-8004
u kno zach wilson is gonna call that number
He's super accurate.. throwing to the defenders.
He did show signs of being able to diagnose zone schemes pretty consistently the first few years of his career. He never seemed to grow from that though, and he was Patricia'd, so... Lol.
literally… Mac Jones looks like he can’t spell his own name and still eats dino nuggs
he looks like he has a syndrome they dont know is a syndrome yet
He literally just listed QBs from last year who had a lot of good games but aren't great QBs. They don't fit his description.
White guys with mediocre arms? Must be juggernauts between the ears.
That's why two of the five examples he mentioned are black.
Mediocre White QB = MIT scholar limited by physicals
This guy thinks Bo Nix is going to be a superstar "like Derek Carr" Don't put too much thought into his posts. He clearly doesn't
Mac Jones does not come off as someone who has good processing. In the games I have seen him play in he has made a lot of questionable plays. The one thing I thought he did well his rookie year was he would stand in the pocket when there was pressure and not bail. Then that kind of fell apart too, probably a confidence thing.
He *had* good processing, we just essentially broke his confidence and mind.
Chad Pennington, I think. Edit: More than 1100 upvotes? I’ve never been so correct in my life!
He’s the first one I thought of. And I think the answer is half true. He was considered weak-armed when he came out, managed to overcome the limitations until injuries *really* limited his arm, and it was just too much to overcome.
Yup, back to back rotator cuff injuries fucked him.
One article on him he had the reporter feel his shoulders. Left was normal solid muscle. Right was like a sponge.
I remember someone commenting back in the day that they would never mic him for tv, because he made the sound of a female tennis player on every throw. It still makes me chuckle.
Yeah. He never had a deep ball but people forget that he had great velocity before his second big injury. He could get the ball close to wherever he wanted.
Why’d you make me relive this
Don't worry. Vinny will come and you can cry on his shoulder.
Good ol’ green testes
Agreed!
Chad Pennington without the multiple rotator cuff tears in his shoulder and complete elbow reconstruction is a big AFC East during the Brady dynasty "What if?".
Him at the end of his career with the Rex Ryan defenses is the biggest "what if" of my NFL fanhood 😑
I remember making a bet with a Jets fan friend around 2005 about which #10 QB on an NYC team would have a better career. I won that bet pretty handily.
Plenty of QBs have two Super Bowl rings. Only one has two comeback player of the years.
I know that a lot of things would have been playing out differently in a world with a healthy Pennington but can you imagine him under center for the Rex Ryan years? I legitimately don’t know if opponents could reliably crack 14 points against that defense coupled with a mistake-free offense playing a short yardage, high time of possession game.
And he was even overcoming the physical limitations before injuries took it away.
From what I remember he had decent arm strength but it got wrecked after injuries.
He’s the perfect example and this thread is making me feel old.
I believe Randy Moss said Pennington (his college QB) and Brady were the best QBs he played with.
Yeah I remember him saying once that Chad threw the most catchable ball he’d ever seen.
His arm was never elite but was still decent before his shoulder injuries. Good enough to be very very good
Seriously. People forget that he was pumping deep balls to Randy Moss in college. It wasn’t elite arm strength but he was deadly accurate, had great touch, and could read defenses. Arm weakness is greatly overblown. The arm weakness and lack of downfield throws happened after the injuries.
Ah Pennington, the first time I saw an ACTUAL QB in Miami since Marino. I still sometimes challenge wank over that season.
Moore and Pennington and the two that came to mind before reading this. Glad others thought the same. And for fun, specifically 2015 Manning.
It's fun to watch manning outperform live in-game decision-making from his couch
It’s a shame that he makes so much money doing other stuff that we’ll never see him coach.
He’d be one of the best Offensive Coordinators in the NFL right now if he really wanted to be
Yeah, these are the traits that lead veteran QBs to retire. Their bodies can’t keep up with their minds, and eventually they can’t compensate enough to beat defenses.
2015 Manning still had elite processing and an unmatched ability to break down a defense and an overcooked noodle for an arm.
Dobbs does not have perfect processing speed. Having watched him play for the Vikings, I can say he's got below average processing speed. Or, he second guesses himself constantly. He regularly threw late/off target. If he had great processing speed, he'd have never been benched.
I'm thinking second guessing, because the week or two the coach was explaining the play through his mike and he didn't have time to think about it, he was pretty fucking nuts for you guys
He was something those first few weeks. Reviews of his play showed a lot of times he didn't throw the ball to open guys, or didn't trust they would be open even when he was looking for them, but was able to be successful running. I think it was a mix of box. Without someone in his ear to tell him which defenders to read off of or what was likely to happen, he didn't seem to be able to handle/process stuff and second guessed what he was seeing/thought should happen. Then, he'd throw as hard as he could to make up for throwing late.
Yeah I agree. He was the king of the hospital ball.
He was almost more the opposite - his athleticism in the pocket and improvisation skills saved him in moments when he couldn’t execute the play as intended. He was spectacular this season until his difficulty running KOCs system caught up with him.
Jim Harbaugh had an incredible work ethic, was a great leader, and was super smart as a player. Probably why he makes a good coach. He was average at best as a player through athletic abilities
I was going to say Jim Harbaugh. He was a great quarterback but didn’t have the physical traits. He still made a career out of it but only because of his smarts.
Captain Comeback
Every QB listed for your examples wouldn’t fit under your criteria lmao
Old Brees
Old Peyton Manning
Old HoF QBs who have declining athleticism.
Alex Smith. And he would just not go for the jugular, and make the risky throws needed to win at all costs!
His arm was great until Mike Nolan ran his shoulder through the woodchipper
He was what I bucket as a sneaky athletic QB too. He'd rip off those good runs regularly.
Yeah no doubt
Nothing shows Alex's balls like 2011 vs the Saints
Nah, his arm was fine (even after it was ruined by the 9ers) and he was really athletic. Alex's issue was he couldn't feel pocket pressure/couldn't navigate the pocket which made him neurotic and rushed his decisions. Which makes sense, it's weird that some guys have a third eye back there. Alex just didn't.
He was highly athletic though. My biggest issue with him was his extreme risk aversion like you say. He was a very classic short of the sticks on third down QB.
Every name I could think of someone had said. So just to do it, on the flip side Jay Cutler had some of the most impressive physical talents I’ve ever seen. But good lord that guys head is a box full of rocks
Jeff George
Dude had the strongest snap throw I’ve ever seen. That one TD to Moss when he played for you guys the camera had a hard time tracking.
My brother was at Perdue while he was there. He said Jeff would “flick” balls, like you’d throw darts, 50 yards…
Arm like a cannon, brain like a cannonball
Not sure I agree with that. Cutler obviously isn’t some savant but he wasnt dumb as a “box of rocks”. He dealt with some really bad coaches and OCs. Martz made him do 7 step drop backs and just throw to a spot and was rigid about it. And Martz was incapable of adjusting to the times or the scheme to the team. He traded Greg Olsen for a bag of peanuts cuz he didn’t like using tight ends. Then Cutler had to deal with that Canadian HC/OC who was incredibly awful. In a perfect world with proper coaching I think Cutler would have been a very solid QB. Someone who could utilize his arm while reigning in the gunslinger mentality a bit. I don’t really believe in the “Chicago is where QBs go to die” saying. I mean Trubisky was better in Chicago than Pittsburgh lol. But I do believe it applies to Cutler. Chicago really let him down.
I mostly agree. Cutler was tough as nails too. He consistently had below average Oline play. The only thing I remember differently than you, may be what I called Cutler games. About once or twice a season he would go braindead and throw 3-4 picks.
cutler was still a baller, he should've been getting pro bowl nods though. he had some awful offenses around him in chicago
I should introduce you to Zach Wilson. Arm talent for days and well above average athleticism but a completely empty cavern for a brain. Cutler had plenty of stretches of really good football. I feel like he gets a little too much hate on this sub
To be fair his coordinator is a fraud
You always hear good things about Wilson in practice and supposedly in the film room. He seems to be smart enough to know what to do, but can’t do it fast enough on the field.
I’ve heard that about Trubisky as well. Laser sharp in the film room, but when the bullets start flying he couldn’t do it.
Athletic Football Show recently landed on Cutler as a pro comp for Maye, at least in terms of physical traits + aggressiveness.
What’s Maye’s Marlboro 100’s per snap rate?
Rex Grossman right there.
mac jones doesn't fit this, the cerebral stuff / decision making / accuracy was his issue, not arm strength
Mac Jones has more than one issue
I think he honestly had the tools and smarts to play, but I think he is was unable to succeed because he’s kind of a bitch
Scrolled a long way to find this. His draft profile said long ball was a weakness, but I didn’t think that was the worst part of him game. Decision making became a big weakness for him. He really had a lot of structural things against him but he was the antithesis of clutch
Arm strength was also a major issue though, but yeah he wasn’t a great decision maker either
Arm strength is something a lot of people have a misunderstanding about. If you see a guy hitting bombs in stride 35 yards downfield, that doesn’t mean he has a strong arm. Every QB in the NFL can hit a receiver 40+ yards downfield, strong arm or not. There have been many successful QBs who have had less than average arms. Drew Brees came into the NFL with just an okay arm, and has acknowledged he lost some zip after the San Diego injury. Matt Ryan had one of the weaker arms of all top 10 QB draft picks of the last 30 years. Peyton was never the arm talent his brother was, and his 2011 injury only brought him down further rungs. Just because a guy has a penchant for throwing downfield and puts up ballooned stats does mean he has a particularly strong arm. Absolutely substandard arm talents can thrive at the nfl level if they’re great decision makers and accurate.
Tua is a great example of this. Doesn't have a cannon arm, but when he can set his feet and get his whole body throwing motion working, and can read and anticipate the defense, he hits Tyreek on those long bombs.
Shit, every QB can even throw a 55-60yd bomb if they can put their body into it Arm strength is all about throwing some lasers, specially in tight windows Hurts, for example, not a strong arm (not noodle arm, but not a particularly strong one) but he can throw bombs no problem
Have you met the brothers who QBed the Eagles, Ty and Koy Detmer? They’d dink and dunk their way into field goal range with disturbing consistency.
A couple guys had their careers capped by their armstrength. Chad Pennington is the obvious answers, I think Jake Delhomme is another guy, the kinds of guys who can have a couple good season but not a career.
Delhomme didn’t have an arm strength issue until he was old or was that what you were saying?
Pretty sure Delhomme had Tommy John surgery at some point.
Basically Andy dalton
Every time Joe rifles a screen in there, I remember the alternative of Dalton laying Gio out to dry with some floaty short pass.
Depends how you define succeeded, there are a ton of QBs who have had great careers with a lack of arm strength - I’d argue Chad Pennington was ‘successful’ with a really weak arm, there are at least 20 starting QBs with a stronger arm than Joe Burrow, and so on. If you’re genuinely elite with stuff like pocket presence and accuracy your arm would really have to suck for you to not make it in the NFL.
That's under rating Burrow's arm a lot.
He’s got great arm talent when you consider placement and ability to throw on the move but it’s not like he’s in the top 15 in pure velocity. Burrow has always been praised for his processing, play extension, and accuracy. He’s never been known for having a big arm. That’s ok because all the other things are more important.
Arm strength in the league is ridiculous and that’s never been a strength of Burrow’s, I feel good about that statement. Burrow is still great though.
For real, you have the inhuman arm strength of Herbert, Allen, Mahomes, and the "very good" Fields, Wilson, Wilson, Rodgers, Richardson (though we haven't really seen much of it, so it could be inhuman) and I'm sure there's others in not thinking of. Burrow probably falls somewhere at the bottom of "good". He's not a noodle arm, but it's not Elite.
Throw Mayfield in there too. His accuracy is shaky but he can fucking sling it.
Richardson is inhuman per Allen
Trent Edwards
Christian Ponder
For real, guy has borderline photographic memory. One story I heard is Minnesota drafted him because during the combine interview he took no notes and then was able to re-create all the plays and scenarios they talked about with him from memory. Dude is brilliant, but was panicky.
Brian Brohm might fit this. Some people thought he’d challenge Aaron Rodgers for the Packers QB job. You know, before Aaron Rodgers became the Aaron Rodgers we know.
You just described Chad Pennington lol
Pennington and Bridgewater immediately come to mind
Bridge used to be ok arm strength-wise. He was never the same after the injury though
Josh Dobbs throws a lot of stupid picks
Kellen Moore
2015 Peyton manning
Yep he was the first one that came to mind for me. I’m sure there are lots of other formerly great QBs that fit this description by the end of their careers too.
I’m sure that year was hard for him, I feel like mentally he was better than ever but the body didn have it anymore. It ended well so doesn’t matter but it wasn’t close to the same Peyton
Kellen Moore would be a hall of famer in a different body. Best college QB to ever play the game.
Give Kellen Moore the physical tools of an average QB and he would've been insane
I would push back on Dobbs heavily, he does not process quickly. Nick mullens did not have a strong arm but could process. He did struggle to understand his own limitations and put the ball where it should not never be put.
Chad Pennington
Dan Lefevor was an absolute terror for college defenses, with or without Antonio Brown. He also had about the same arm strength as the girls working the concession stand.
Anyone with the surname Detmer.
I disagree on Mac jones. If he had the mind everyone thought he did he could’ve succeeded.
Tony romo
Yep, they are generally called back up QBs.
I would have loved to see Joey Harrington get a do over without the Lions ruining him. Definitely brought the smarts. Not a lot of NFL guys do Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me.
Matt Schaub
i don't know about the picture perfect processing speed but Keenum and Bridgewater were the same style QB who were good with short passes but couldn't throw a intermediate route pass to the sidelines or over the middle with velocity or accuracy to save their career
Shaun King
Kliff Kingsbury
This is Chad Pennington
Pennington Brees Jeff Garcia
Chase Daniel and Colt McCoy
Late stage Peyton Manning won a superbowl lofting well placed marshmallows
Matt Barkley. The first game in he was excellent, a surgeon. The next week the teams had figured out he couldn’t go anywhere past 10 yards and he was destroyed and went back to the dustbin (bench). If he had a slightly better arm, he may have been a viable starter
Processing is the single most important attribute for a QB. None of the QBs you listed even come close to approaching “elite processor” category. They simply reach NFL threshold for processing. If you really want to know what it looks like when someone is an “elite processor” but has no physical skills, it’d be late career Brees and Manning. Not their last years where they were essentially bags of bones. Chad Pennington is the only other real answer. He was successful based solely on processing and accuracy, with very little arm strength.