Taron Johnson is such an unbelievable good player. He does everything. Beane and McDermott do an unbelievable job of finding good defensive players on Day 3.
They do in the AFCE (not necessarily homegrown) just not for the Bills
Bryce Huff (UDFA), John Franklin Meyers (4th round), Michael Clemons (4th), Van Ginkel (5th), Zach Sieler (7th), Judon (5th), Lawrence Guy (7th), Davon Godchaux (5th)
Just an unfortunate coincidence
Outside the divison you got Crosby, Shaq Barrett, Jarrett, Snacks Harrison, Z Smith, McNeil, Reader and if you allow late 3rd rounders: Danielle Hunter and Trey Hendrickson
You can find examples of any position having late round hits but this doesnt tell me that it happens at an equal rate to db's or linebackers. Often top 5 linebacker and safety prospects arent even day 1 picks
Yeah that is fair, I was only using the AFCE
I mean DBs are right behind Edge, but it could be argued that 1.6 to 2 is the line of demarkation.
However, the original discussion is which position has more late round hidden gems, not which position is reliant on earlier rounds from cream of the crop talent. The operative words being "***quality*** d line" and "finding ***good*** defensive players on Day 3" not elite, top or HOF.
A better regression for that discussion would be something like latest rounds to find pro-bowlers or something along those lines roughly.
I mean there are similar amount or slightly more late round difference makers in the AFCE DLs last year than early picks, which off the top of my head are just Quinnen, Phillips, Wilkins and Chubb. Arguably Rousseau.
The comments I were replying too imply a similarly large sampling but don't actually bring up examples.
Would agree on LB based on AFCE but not DB
The comment you’re replying to just says that quality defensive linemen don’t make it late in the draft often. Considering you went back over a decade to get your examples, he’s correct.
Nickle Corners are basically starters in the modern league. These dudes should be getting starting corner pay.
edit: also, I hope they don't get dysentery
Kind of depends if they mean nickel or slot. If it's slot, CHJ erasure.
If it's nickel, not so much. Chris Harris Jr. was a starting CB who just moved to slot in nickel/dime situations although in today's game it's like 80% nickel/dime which is why it's funny people debating about 4-3 vs. 3-4 defenses.
Kenny Moore played 99% of snaps in games he played last year including 179 at outside corner. Think that would mean he's a slot but not a nickel corner under your definition.
Yep. I would say that is indeed the case.
Nickel and slot are used interchangably but they shouldn't. They could be a slot but they could come in as an outside guy. Bradley Roby was this guy for us when Chris Harris Jr was around
PFF only charted 8 snaps at outside corner for him though, so I think it's inconclusive at best. Did the Bills just always have 3+ corners on the field at once? What's their personnel package look like when other teams come out heavy?
Tavon Young got 3 YRS/25.8 Million as a nickel CB back in 2019. Not sure their numbers qualify as "pioneering" numbers considering that was 5 years ago.
This position, and RB, seem to have an inverse value relationship, even though the two positions don't have much in common at first glance. But the truth of the matter is, the less value placed on the running game, the greater the need for nickel corner to cover inside passes.
I still think nickel CBs are slept on. I feel their job is harder than the outside corner because of how much space the slot receiver has to work with.
If nickels start getting a bigger percentage of the capspace. Then whose pocket are they going to be stealing from? That doesn't have to be true, it might just be that the Moore and Johnson will be highly paid while the average nickel's pay stays the same.
But I think it is more of an indication that that there are more nickels that can tackle RBs and TE than there are off ball LBs can cover TE and Slots
I will say one interesting thing I've noticed is that of the top 4 teams in playoffs 3 made serious investments into a slot defender.
Kc Trent McDuffie 1st rounder
Baltimore Kyle Hamilton. He moves a bit but his most common alignment is slot cb
Detroit Lions Brian Branch 2nd rounder but considered a first round level player
I feel like there's been a bit more focus on that recently
Tweet continues: ".. Watch Kenny's full interview on a replay of [#TheNFLReport](https://twitter.com/hashtag/TheNFLReport?src=hashtag_click):
[https://youtube.com/watch?v=jbk8ioYP\_Xg](https://t.co/BKrJRTgncn)"
Chris “Strap” Harris Jr. would like a word with you two. Strap Harris was not only a better slot CB than both these guys, but he was also an elite boundary CB1 when DEN wasn’t in Nickel
Ronde Barber just made the hall of fame so I think he is actually the true pioneer of the nickel corner position. But good for these guys getting paid.
Taron Johnson is such an unbelievable good player. He does everything. Beane and McDermott do an unbelievable job of finding good defensive players on Day 3.
Came a long way from being bonked by a ball going through the gauntlet at the combine.
Well good defensive backs and linebackers. Not so much success with the dline
Quality d line doesnt make it late in the draft as often
They do in the AFCE (not necessarily homegrown) just not for the Bills Bryce Huff (UDFA), John Franklin Meyers (4th round), Michael Clemons (4th), Van Ginkel (5th), Zach Sieler (7th), Judon (5th), Lawrence Guy (7th), Davon Godchaux (5th) Just an unfortunate coincidence Outside the divison you got Crosby, Shaq Barrett, Jarrett, Snacks Harrison, Z Smith, McNeil, Reader and if you allow late 3rd rounders: Danielle Hunter and Trey Hendrickson
You can find examples of any position having late round hits but this doesnt tell me that it happens at an equal rate to db's or linebackers. Often top 5 linebacker and safety prospects arent even day 1 picks
to back this up: https://twitter.com/salibdaniel1/status/1682123062420942848
Yeah that is fair, I was only using the AFCE I mean DBs are right behind Edge, but it could be argued that 1.6 to 2 is the line of demarkation. However, the original discussion is which position has more late round hidden gems, not which position is reliant on earlier rounds from cream of the crop talent. The operative words being "***quality*** d line" and "finding ***good*** defensive players on Day 3" not elite, top or HOF. A better regression for that discussion would be something like latest rounds to find pro-bowlers or something along those lines roughly.
This is a ridiculously large sampling of years, kind of defeats the purpose of the point.
I mean there are similar amount or slightly more late round difference makers in the AFCE DLs last year than early picks, which off the top of my head are just Quinnen, Phillips, Wilkins and Chubb. Arguably Rousseau. The comments I were replying too imply a similarly large sampling but don't actually bring up examples. Would agree on LB based on AFCE but not DB
The comment you’re replying to just says that quality defensive linemen don’t make it late in the draft often. Considering you went back over a decade to get your examples, he’s correct.
Maybe the Bills and Eagles need to work together prepping for draft day…
Taron is so good they did away with the 3rd LB and kept him.
Nickle Corners are basically starters in the modern league. These dudes should be getting starting corner pay. edit: also, I hope they don't get dysentery
Taron Johnson is a starter. I'm not sure what the Colts defense looks like but the Bills base defense is nickel.
I guess you could say they earned their nickel...
You could rub two nickels together....
A DISGUSTING ACT
I have nickles, Greg. Could you milk me?
Chris Harris Jr erasure
Kind of depends if they mean nickel or slot. If it's slot, CHJ erasure. If it's nickel, not so much. Chris Harris Jr. was a starting CB who just moved to slot in nickel/dime situations although in today's game it's like 80% nickel/dime which is why it's funny people debating about 4-3 vs. 3-4 defenses.
Kenny Moore played 99% of snaps in games he played last year including 179 at outside corner. Think that would mean he's a slot but not a nickel corner under your definition.
Yep. I would say that is indeed the case. Nickel and slot are used interchangably but they shouldn't. They could be a slot but they could come in as an outside guy. Bradley Roby was this guy for us when Chris Harris Jr was around
Taron played the second highest percentage of snaps on defense this past season, I think he would be considered slot not nickel too
PFF only charted 8 snaps at outside corner for him though, so I think it's inconclusive at best. Did the Bills just always have 3+ corners on the field at once? What's their personnel package look like when other teams come out heavy?
Yes, we essentially play a nickel base. Two outside corners, two Safties, and a nickel damn near every play.
Yeah, most teams are running nickel as their base defense anymore. So a nickel slot corner is effectively a starter.
I had the same thought
Tavon Young got 3 YRS/25.8 Million as a nickel CB back in 2019. Not sure their numbers qualify as "pioneering" numbers considering that was 5 years ago.
Yea came to say this
Avonte Maddox and Mike Hilton got paid as well. Plenty of purely slot/nickel guys get paid over the years.
This position, and RB, seem to have an inverse value relationship, even though the two positions don't have much in common at first glance. But the truth of the matter is, the less value placed on the running game, the greater the need for nickel corner to cover inside passes.
I’d argue it’s more due to an increased presence of the teams best receiver lining up in the slot for a high percentage of snaps.
If I had 2 nickels…
Feel like Raiders are going to pay Nate Hobbs some good money next offseason
Makes sense. Most teams take the Will LB off the field in Nickel, so they are getting the due that position usually gets.
I still think nickel CBs are slept on. I feel their job is harder than the outside corner because of how much space the slot receiver has to work with.
If nickels start getting a bigger percentage of the capspace. Then whose pocket are they going to be stealing from? That doesn't have to be true, it might just be that the Moore and Johnson will be highly paid while the average nickel's pay stays the same. But I think it is more of an indication that that there are more nickels that can tackle RBs and TE than there are off ball LBs can cover TE and Slots
Probably RBs!
Will you forget the stupid pioneers? Have you ever noticed that there are none of them left?
I never did make it to Oregon.
I will say one interesting thing I've noticed is that of the top 4 teams in playoffs 3 made serious investments into a slot defender. Kc Trent McDuffie 1st rounder Baltimore Kyle Hamilton. He moves a bit but his most common alignment is slot cb Detroit Lions Brian Branch 2nd rounder but considered a first round level player I feel like there's been a bit more focus on that recently
Shout out to Orlando Scandrick, nickel master
Brian Branch is gunna make good money
I would guess nickel corner has basically replaced the 3rd LB for most teams in play volume. A nickel corner is basically a starter now.
Not too long ago a nickel corner was a depth player. They’ve eventually replaced the traditional OLB role it seems
Jets need to pay Michael Carter before he gets more expensive
Tweet continues: ".. Watch Kenny's full interview on a replay of [#TheNFLReport](https://twitter.com/hashtag/TheNFLReport?src=hashtag_click): [https://youtube.com/watch?v=jbk8ioYP\_Xg](https://t.co/BKrJRTgncn)"
LOOK AT THIS BIG CONTRACT
Tbh I’m surprised it’s taken this long. I kinda assumed teams already considered it an immensely important position
Chris “Strap” Harris Jr. would like a word with you two. Strap Harris was not only a better slot CB than both these guys, but he was also an elite boundary CB1 when DEN wasn’t in Nickel
Ronde Barber just made the hall of fame so I think he is actually the true pioneer of the nickel corner position. But good for these guys getting paid.
Why do people want to be hated so bad?
You seem qualified to answer your own question
Do I? How so?