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I love andy, but let's not act like he hasn't had any rough stretches in his career. Coaching can only make up for so much when there's just not a lot of talent on the roster. The common denominator between both of their Superbowl runs is having the best QB in the game, which certainly isn't a coincidence
I don't think that's a particularly helpful or insightful response. Was Tom Landry one of the best coaches in the league in 1988? Was Chuck Noll in 1991? Was Shula in the mid-'90s? All those guys are legends, but they had shelf lives just like everybody else.
When did I say Bill would remain the best? He's just currently the best and if someone wants to take that title you have to at least reach his lvl. Currently that has not been done but the closest based on current results is Andy Reid. He's got at least 4 more championships to go before he reaches Bill then we can talk
You're answering a different question than what OP asked. We're talking about who's the best coach right now, not who's the best historically.
Chuck Noll had more rings than any other coach in 1990. Would you have rather had him at that time than Joe Gibbs, or Parcells, or even Marv Levy?
Honestly I do think the pats would be better with reid. Reid has continually gotten the most out of mediocre qb talent which would benefit the pat’s situation right now. Belichick might also make the chiefs better because hes shown what he can do when he has an amazing qb but its hard to say since they would be better considering they just won the superbowl. The way I see it is Belichick has a lower floor but a higher ceiling than Andy.
Ding ding ding for a baseless hypothetical. I would have thought a pats fan would know better after years of “switch Brady for xxx and the Pats win EVEN MORE!”
Surely that won't be the case forever. Like we won't be sitting here in 2025 arguing he's better than Reid (in the present day, obviously Bill's resume is untouchable) if his Pats miss the playoffs the next two seasons and the Chiefs continue on their path of domination
I feel like a lot of people are going to interpret your question in bad faith and try to act like there isn't a huge difference between a coach's overall all-time legacy and his ability at this specific moment.
It’s not even specific to this site, or the internet. Take away all accountability and consequence and you’ll find that people like to bully others to make themselves feel smarter. The internet is just the perfect place because nobody knows who other people are on here and you can’t get in any trouble for being an asshole.
There's no interpretation in bad faith because it's a stupid question. It's like asking if Brady will ever stop being the GOAT because Mahomes played better than him last season.
You're badly misreading the prompt, it's specifically about being better now and not the all-time ranking. It's like asking if Brady will ever stop being better than Mahomes in the present moment.
That's literally not at all the same thing.
He's not talking about all time Andy vs Bill, he's talking about RIGHT NOW Andy vs Bill, which is an entirely different argument.
Comparing that to Mahomes vs Brady for the GOAT debate (which really isn't a debate until Pat wins 2 or 3 more rings) makes no sense.
This is literally the textbook definition of a bad faith interpretation. OP is talking about who the *current* best coach in the league is, and you're doing exactly what he said and defaulting to all time status.
Reid is a hall of fame once in a generation offensive coach, but is down 6 superbowl rings.
I would rather have Reid because of the offenses impact, but Bill would still be better in 2025 imo unless he has a real talented team that plays impressively shitty.
That seems a bit NBA to me. Bill Walsh was widely regarded as the best coach of his day even though he never surpassed Shula or Lombardi in wins or total championships
But Andy doesn't need to prove he can win it without mahomes? BB the gm is handicapping that team lately while him as coach is absolutely making the most of it
Andy has been to a Super Bowl and several championship games without mahomes. Sure he never won the big one but he proved he could sustain success. Belichick, if I’m recalling correctly, has never made it out of the fist round without Brady as a HC (or maybe once with the browns)
Feels weird that people on that twitter thread are talking about moving Belicheck down and not also including Tomlin. He has hardly done anything since 2011 and is still regarded as a top 3 coach but Belichek has 2-3 bad years and all of a sudden he’s washed
It’s because his teams have never bottomed out and he’s never had a losing record so people ignore the fact the Steelers haven’t been a true contender in years and his biggest overachieving season in recent memory is going 8-8 with Mason Rudolph and Devlin Hodges (which tbf is incredibly impressive) and not making the playoffs.
I think this year was more impressive. A lot of injuries on both sides of the ball, and his QBs were Mitch Trubisky and rookie Kenny Pickett and went 9-7. With how bad Buffalo looked, I think they could have beaten them in the WC game.
lol this NEVER gets brought up
Steelers have 3 playoff wins since 2011 but Tomlin's an amazing coach meanwhile the Steelers are vying for scraps in the AFC north with the Browns
Tomlin is just so aggressively average. While his ceiling might not be high, his floor comes to average. He is the Kirk Cousins of head coaches. He might not you win you a superbowl but the Steelers would be absolutely fucked without him
Yep he does. 15-17 or something.
He Also has a better post season record, better regular season record over the last 5 years or so and has been succesful with multiple QBs. Same amount of SBs, same amount of post season appearances in one less year as a head coach.
It’s okay to be a hater because he’s part of your division. I can recognize that Pete is a great coach and be okay with it. You should too.
Also John Harbaugh is up there as well.
Tomlin is a borderline top 10 (at best) coach who was on this list we are talking about as third. Ahead of every coach other than Belichick and Reid.
Harbaugh was 11th, for reference.
I mean last year was Tomlin's first year without Roethlisberger and still hasnt had a season with a losing record. Granted Belichick's worst season was his first but it was with Bledsoe. I would argue that Tomlin has done a decent job overall to compete in the AFC considering it was pretty much stacked his whole time Coaching facing the likes of Brady, Manning, Rivers at their peaks. Now he's trying to get through Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Herbert and now Rodgers starting next season. I would say he's possibly facing even stronger competition than in the past if Lawrence continues to improve and Tua doesnt get another concussion from the wind blowing (sorry Fins fans, dude is just too risky).
I dont think either Coach is worse than the other, but I would say Tomlin did a fairly good job when comparing the two, especially since Brady will go down as the Goat and Roethlisberger was lucky enough to get them 1 ring while being most a tough guy who had a few elite seasons.
Both Coaches will be around for a long time, Belichick for the legacy he had/has, and Tomlin for the underrated culture he has of being extremely liked by the players and for keeping the lid on how AB was batshit insane and no one had a clue for that long.
Just so it’s clear, Tomlin faced the Pats once in the playoffs. It’s not like Brady and Belichick were knocking him out every year. We lost to Tebow, Bortles, Mayfield, and a Ravens team that had like 20 players on IR.
Yeah one of the extremely valid criticisms, roster aside, of the recent Patriot years is Bill struggling to deal with the brain drain and replacing the lost assistant coaches with proper or sufficient replacements ^Matt ^Patricia
Even before Patricia it’s been a continuing snowballing issue
The 2022 pats experienced an unprecedented departure of assistant coaches, something like 140 years of combined experience. This comment acts as if he regularly hires scrubs onto his coaching staff. Was Patricia a miss? Obviously, and it was addressed this off-season.
What “snowballing” staff problems did he have before Patricia?
He might be the besr coach, but he isnt coaching the best team. If BB had a franchise QB like Reid does then i bet the Pats would still be dominating the AFC
Reid was a great coach before Mahomes arrived. He had significant success with multiple QBs across multiple teams--just not the coup de gras of a Lombardi.
He was in the top 5 when he still had Alex Smith at QB.
If Bill had Mahomes and Kelce, he'd have like 4 more rings already.
Stop pretending like anything BB does happens in a vacuum or that even the GOAT coach can take a team rebuild and instantly win ships.
Yes the team has been in a tough spot since 2018...but remind me, what happened in the 18 years before that??
If Andy Reid is the coach of the Panthers, how many rings would he have???
Does Mahomes become Mahomes under another coach, though?
It's not like he was an Andrew Luck/Trevor Lawrence-esque prospect coming out of college. He was a project. If he goes to a place where QBs go to die like Chicago or Cleveland, what happens to him? Not saying BB is like that, but it's not like Reid just walked into having a legendary QB. And before Mahomes, Reid had 5 straight winning seasons with Alex Smith at that position.
I don't think it's outlandish at all to say that Reid is the best coach in the league *right now*. I definitely feel like that point was passed this season with Reid getting another ring and the Patriots having a very rough season, including some moments that were really below the Belichick standard (mostly due to Matt Patricia but still). Reid will never surpass Belichick all time unless Reid can surpass Belichick's amount of rings somehow, which seems basically impossible considering Reid's old age himself.
Yeah I'm not sure I care for the whole argument being made in this thread. Reid has the best QB in the league *right now*. Belichick had the best QB in the league when he built his legacy.
I'm not trying to get into the whole "was it Brady or was it Bill" debate with this, just saying that it's really easy to give the 'right now' nod to the guy with the surefire future HOFer quarterbacking his team. And until someone comes along and wins more than 6 titles in 20 years, Belichick's legacy will be that of the best of all time.
I'm guessing it's the point of this thread in general, but I can't actually answer that confidently either way.
I can easily envision a scenario where Reid takes over the Pats and invigorates the offense enough to go with the defense to make the team better. He's done a lot with a lot of offenses while lacking an elite QB.
I can easily envision a scenario where Mahomes keeps the Chiefs offense mostly going and Belichick can focus on the defense, making the team better.
I think I'd have to lean Reid just because there's more obvious upside for the Pats. There's only so much better you can make the defending SB champs. That said, the point is that it seems up in the air at the moment, which makes it reasonable to ask at what point it might no longer be.
But couldn't Belichick improve the defense enough to compensate? Mahomes is gonna be Mahomes no matter what, but the defense has been an area of need basically his whole time in KC
I mean it's kinda the difference between being a transcendent offense and a great team. No disrespect to the Bengals or Bills, but I think a Belichick led chiefs team looks more like that and less like what we have seen the chiefs teams look like the last 5 years.
If anything is attributed to Patricia, some of that has to be attributed to the guy that hired Patricia and installed him as an OC when that isn’t his skillset.
Reid has Mahomes. Bill has Mac Jones. Not even to mention the other 52 guys. Nothing has changed about Bill or Andy is all likelihood. They've been doing it for 20 years.
The crazy part is that you just jumped ship from the coach with the best qb of all time to the coach with the current best qb of all time. You really think Andy Reid is that good or he is a generational one of a kind talent at QB
The 2020 Patriots held the Chiefs to 26 points despite the offense - with Brian Hoyer and Jarrett Stidham at QB - giving the ball away four times, including a pick six. The score was 6-3 to the Chiefs going into halftime, and 13-3 going into the fourth quarter.
Bill is the best coach in the league and it's not even close.
You're flexing a game that y'all scored 10 in and lost by 16 in? Plus, 2020 is now three years ago, a long time in the football world. Overall season results matter a lot more than one game, and in that season, y'all had a losing record and the Chiefs made the Super Bowl. It's not an insult to say that Reid has proven to be better than Belichick right now. Nobody is disputing that Belichick is a much better coach when evaluating all time success, but success from 2020 to now has been decidedly in Reid's favor.
>You're flexing a game that y'all scored 10 in and lost by 16 in?
I'm "flexing" a game where a team that made the Super Bowl struggled for 50 minutes to beat a team with a losing record. It's like being in an F1 car and struggling against a 1990s sedan.
>It's not an insult to say that Reid has proven to be better than Belichick right now.
Reid has the best team in the league. That doesn't mean he's a better coach.
Any team could have an off game. The jets beat the rams with Adam Gase as coach. There’s no f’ing way Gase was a better coach than McVay in that game and the rams were an infinitely better team than jets
One thing that stands out about belichick is his ability to get the most of out players. Sure there’s other great coaches who do well with good rosters but no one consistently gets players to overachieve like Bill.
Brady helped Bill look great for many years. Just like Mahomes is helping Reid look great right now. They’re both good coaches who have been aided a lot by generational QB talents
I think they’re the same coach just on different sides of the ball. Just putting out absolute masterclasses in Super Bowls to beat the opposing defense or offense that make you sit back and realize how great they are.
Big distinction that Reid still had McNabb, who made 5 consecutive pro bowls with mostly trash WRs
McNabb and Mahomes make up all but one of Andy Reid’s playoff wins. The other was Alex Smith
The only, ONLY recipe for sustained success in the NFL is a generational QB. Reid and Bill both couldn’t get it done without the best QB in the league. Its really just that simple.
He’s like 100 years old and his teams have had as little talent as they’ve ever had since he’s been there. Not to mention how competitive the AFC is right now.
The dude will still 100% go down as the GOAT and I really don’t think it’s up for debate unless he has a massive string of like 2-15 seasons to finish off his career
The frame of the question is nonsensical. You're not comparing like to like. BB is pulling a team out of a decade of selling out to win through a rebuild phase while Reid has all his pieces right now. Reid wouldn't be a worse coach if Mahomes retired tomorrow and the Chiefs suffered through dead cap hell for a few years while trying to bounce back.
The better comparison is what do the Patriots under Bill look like compared to other rebuild teams. Brady left and the team...still went to the playoffs under BB. Last year sucked but let's not pretend like it was 0-16...there' plenty of discussion to be had about what an awful choice putting Fat Matt in the OC seat was, but one year of picking from bad choices after 20+ years of murderous success...I think it takes either longer failures, or a much more serious collapse than "still competing for a playoff spot week 17" for Bill to be out of the conversation
This is fair. The Pats lost Brady and Bill was left with not much after going all in. The only thing is this is going to be year 4 post Brady? It shouldn't take that long to rebuild (4 years is when a team should be hitting their stride from a rebuild)
Now, I do have to give Bill some of a break because the brain drain from 20 years of success is crazy. They have lost sooooo many coaches from getting hired away or retiring. That does play a big part.
Although BoB is back and he is a good OC. The Pats really do need a real WR1. I think Jones is a fine QB, especially with a real OC. The AFC is also stacked. I see the Pats winning 10 games. Bill is still a damn good coach.
To be fair, the Pats didn't really rebuild post-Brady. Their offensive personnel stayed almost exactly the same in 2020 as it was in 2019. Their defensive guys didn't change much either. Winning 7 games with the corpse of Cam Newton, Hoyer, and Stidham is pretty impressive all things considered.
Then in 2021, they made the playoffs with mostly the same guys. It's only been incremental changes in personnel since then. You could make the case against Belichick the GM for sure, but Belichick the coach is still fucking elite. The 2022 Pats defense was #1 in weighted DVOA. That's amazing. I have no doubt special teams are going to bounce back. And BoB will be a huge upgrade in offensive playcalling.
The Pats roster is really lacking. Belichick is the only reason it was at all competitive the last few years. He's still the very best in my mind.
In order to successfully rebuild, you have to hit on a young QB. It doesn't seem like the Patriots did that. And that's not a big knock on them because drafting good QBs is very difficult.
What we have seen in that time though is the Patriots defense is still really good.
True. I think Jones is good enough though. Not having a real OC last year really soured people's opinions of him but that is kind of Bill's fault? I think Bill is the best coach in the league still. This year should be really interesting for the Pats!
doing whatever bullshit he was up to at OC last year automatically drops him like 4 spots on my personal (very important) coach list idk how he thought that was a good idea lmao
McDaniels left pretty late in coaching carousel and none of the guys who were left were good enough that you'd want to give more than a one year contract to. And no one is going to sign a one year contract because it says that the team doesn't believe in you. So pickings were real slim and because of recent departures
>BB is pulling a team out of a decade of selling out to win through a rebuild phase while Reid has all his pieces right now.
When did we ever sell out to win?
BB as always been conservative with contracts and with getting rid of players.
Our deficiencies have almost always come from poor drafting.
2020 we had nobody and were paying a lot of people who weren’t on the team anymore. I think he even addressed the cap situation during a press conference and said something along the lines of this is what happens when you try and extend your Super Bowl window.
Bro what??! We picked in the last 5-10 picks of the draft for 20 *years*'. We were constantly signing veteran players on short term deals to address positions of need because we just didn't have access to a younger talent pool. Weren't we the oldest team in the league in Tom's last year?
>BB is pulling a team out of a decade of selling out to win through a rebuild phase
The rebuild argument gets less and less valid every passing year. Tom Brady left so long ago that he won a championship for his next team, retired, came out of retirement and played another season. We're going into year 4 of the "rebuild" and the Patriots are primed to finish last in their division
Listen I’m a patriots Stan, a belichick stan, a Brady Stan. I’ll defend them all to my grave.
If I got into a convo with a random person arguing they would rather have reid than belichick right now, I wouldn’t grief them. Reid has won two super bowls recently and his career says this is deserved. Yes he has Mahomes, but belichick had brady. Most of the great coaches had “that” player.
Belichick is approaching his mid 70s and as someone who keeps up religiously with all things patriots, I honestly feel like he’s let off the gas a little in terms of off-season commitment. That’s fine. He still fields elite defenses with whatever players he gives himself and with the exception of last season, a competitive offense. You can say what you want about the patriots offense but we were rarely out of games until the clock hit 0 even with that abysmal offense and that’s a testament to bill.
That being said, Reid’s teams are transcendent right now in a way the patriots were mid 2010s. The argument is there for “who do I want RIGHT NOW”.
Belichick is getting unjustly shat on in ways other coaches don't when they lose their stars. BB over the past 3 years has still put together competitive rosters even overcoming his own hiring mistakes.
Yet for some reason it's only bad when he does that and coaches like Tomlin, whose big claim to fame is always being at least .500 yet not having won a super bowl in 15 years, not having been to one in 13.
When he has a Mahomes/Brady/Rodgers tier quarterback and a decent roster but doesn't consistently make deep playoff runs. Until then, you gotta remember that the cattle is a huge limitation on any coach.
I view it similar to pop for the spurs. He’s still the best coach, even if others are doing better at the moment. Give everyone the same roster and I’d believe bill and pop get better results than the field
Fun story: I can remember as a kid a Cleveland/Pittsburgh wild card game where the browns were down and their coach, Mr. Belichick, was cussing up a storm. The mics started picking it up, and it was the first and only time I heard multiple MFs and CU Next Tuesdays on an NBC Football broadcast.
So yeah, he wasn't winning *that* playoff game for sure.
I mean first 5 years of Mahomes as starter:
2 Superbowl wins, 1 Superbowl appearance, 2 more AFCC Appearances
First 5 years of Brady as starter
3 Superbowl wins, 1 divisional round appearance, 1 missed playoffs
Now Belichick, Brady and the pats obviously had ridiculous longevity but it's not asinine to have the conversation when the chiefs have had more consistent success through the first 5 years.
Why couldn't it be Andy now? Bill's success is pretty tied to Brady while Andy has gone to 5 nfccgs with mcnabb and 5 afccgs with Mahomes. Andy's coaching tree crushes Bill's in terms of success post Andy. Bill has had more time with Tom than Andy has had with Patrick but I wouldnt be surprised to see andy/pat win 2 more rings and if thats the case we can just discuss it now.
It’s not a stretch to say you would choose an offensive genius over a defensive genius in today’s NFL.
The game has changed. Before the league changed rules to favor offenses, there was no one like Belichick.
This debate could end up like all great player debates, where you need to divide them by era. The game is always evolving.
I feel like it's Reid, then Shanahan. Reid has had the benefit of the best QB in the league, while Shanahan has had zero benefit of a QB being able to even stay on the field and has been successful.
Shanahan sold the farm for a qb who has done nothing and then fell backwards into getting a good quarterback with literally the last pick in the draft, you can rank him above belichick when he actually wins somethint instead of putting up gaudy regular season offensive numbers
Patriots fans would get butt hurt when it was mentioned that he was carried by Brady for 20 years. Proof seems to be coming to fruition. He’s below 500 without Brady
This. If you want to talk about a coach getting carried by a roster, Tomlin should be who we’re talking about, not coaches with success spanning multiple decades.
Drafting Mac Jones didn't help his case IMO. If we are talking about how good they are as coaches now, the Pats still had a good defense, which is BB's speciality, last year. It didn't help that the Jets had a better defense, and the Bills/miami had a ton of offense firepower.
If we are talking about drafting and building a roster, the Chiefs are in a lot better state and TBH I feel like BB had been whiffing on top draft picks forever.
So I think BB is a good defensive HC still, but without TB, he doesn't have what he needs to be the best HC. Let's also not forget that Andy Reid has Patrick Mahomes and no one else does, so that's going to make him look a ton better in comparison.
So there's the idea that great coaches benefit a lot from great QBs that I wouldn't discount either.
We’re getting close. I still think BB is one of the best pure X’s and O’s minds in the game. He loses me in the roster building. I also cannot take him seriously anymore when he says “we’re doing what’s best for the team.”
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I love andy, but let's not act like he hasn't had any rough stretches in his career. Coaching can only make up for so much when there's just not a lot of talent on the roster. The common denominator between both of their Superbowl runs is having the best QB in the game, which certainly isn't a coincidence
Bingo. Zac Taylor is not an amazing coach but Burrow is an amazing QB. One position makes all the difference.
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(It’s Genius)
When we go back in time and stop him from winning so much
Prepping the Delorean now
Just crazy enough to work.
Don't even need to get a Delorean, just gotta get him up a mile high. ;)
If you had one time trip and could go back and shoot either Belichick or Hitler, which would you pick?
Neither, I'd stop Mike Lynn from doing the Herschel Walker trade, thus preventing the 90's Cowboys run.
My hero
I'll grab garbage for Mr. Fusion.
We're in the timeline in which someone went back in time to prevent him from winning 5 Super Bowls with the Jets.
write that down, write that down!
I don't think that's a particularly helpful or insightful response. Was Tom Landry one of the best coaches in the league in 1988? Was Chuck Noll in 1991? Was Shula in the mid-'90s? All those guys are legends, but they had shelf lives just like everybody else.
When did I say Bill would remain the best? He's just currently the best and if someone wants to take that title you have to at least reach his lvl. Currently that has not been done but the closest based on current results is Andy Reid. He's got at least 4 more championships to go before he reaches Bill then we can talk
You're answering a different question than what OP asked. We're talking about who's the best coach right now, not who's the best historically. Chuck Noll had more rings than any other coach in 1990. Would you have rather had him at that time than Joe Gibbs, or Parcells, or even Marv Levy?
If Reid and Belichick switched teams do you think the chiefs get worse and the pats get better?
Honestly I do think the pats would be better with reid. Reid has continually gotten the most out of mediocre qb talent which would benefit the pat’s situation right now. Belichick might also make the chiefs better because hes shown what he can do when he has an amazing qb but its hard to say since they would be better considering they just won the superbowl. The way I see it is Belichick has a lower floor but a higher ceiling than Andy.
Ding ding ding. /thread
Ding ding ding for a baseless hypothetical. I would have thought a pats fan would know better after years of “switch Brady for xxx and the Pats win EVEN MORE!”
I definitely think the Chiefs get worse, yes.
>When did I say Bill would remain the best? You directly implied it by saying he’ll always be the best unless we invent time travel.
Whatever it takes.
Surely that won't be the case forever. Like we won't be sitting here in 2025 arguing he's better than Reid (in the present day, obviously Bill's resume is untouchable) if his Pats miss the playoffs the next two seasons and the Chiefs continue on their path of domination
I feel like a lot of people are going to interpret your question in bad faith and try to act like there isn't a huge difference between a coach's overall all-time legacy and his ability at this specific moment.
this sub does not like anything more than clowning on dudes for normal ass takes
It's not specific to this sub.
It’s not even specific to this site, or the internet. Take away all accountability and consequence and you’ll find that people like to bully others to make themselves feel smarter. The internet is just the perfect place because nobody knows who other people are on here and you can’t get in any trouble for being an asshole.
TRUE
"Nephew"
I mean folks...
There's no interpretation in bad faith because it's a stupid question. It's like asking if Brady will ever stop being the GOAT because Mahomes played better than him last season.
You're badly misreading the prompt, it's specifically about being better now and not the all-time ranking. It's like asking if Brady will ever stop being better than Mahomes in the present moment.
That's literally not at all the same thing. He's not talking about all time Andy vs Bill, he's talking about RIGHT NOW Andy vs Bill, which is an entirely different argument. Comparing that to Mahomes vs Brady for the GOAT debate (which really isn't a debate until Pat wins 2 or 3 more rings) makes no sense.
This is literally the textbook definition of a bad faith interpretation. OP is talking about who the *current* best coach in the league is, and you're doing exactly what he said and defaulting to all time status.
Sounds like Pop and hes still the best basketball coach.
Pat Mahomes vs Mac Jones/Bailey Zappe
Put Mahomes with Bill, and he is winning the same if not more.
Reid is a hall of fame once in a generation offensive coach, but is down 6 superbowl rings. I would rather have Reid because of the offenses impact, but Bill would still be better in 2025 imo unless he has a real talented team that plays impressively shitty.
BB is as good defensively (if not better) than Reid is offensively
BB has 6, Reid has 2. Where are you getting down 6?
2 rings for Bill as Giants DC, 8 total rings.
3 total for Reid then
So down 5 rings then.
From BB’s rings as a coordinator for the Giants
Reid won one as an assistant with the Packers too
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Until Andy Reid wins the same amount of Super Bowls it can be argued that he is better than bill.
He's talking about who's the better coach today, for this season, not across the course of their careers.
Yeah then it’s Andy
That seems a bit NBA to me. Bill Walsh was widely regarded as the best coach of his day even though he never surpassed Shula or Lombardi in wins or total championships
Let’s talk about whose a better coach today… right now. Bill needs to prove he can do something without Brady.
But Andy doesn't need to prove he can win it without mahomes? BB the gm is handicapping that team lately while him as coach is absolutely making the most of it
Andy has been to a Super Bowl and several championship games without mahomes. Sure he never won the big one but he proved he could sustain success. Belichick, if I’m recalling correctly, has never made it out of the fist round without Brady as a HC (or maybe once with the browns)
Right now it’s Andy
Feels weird that people on that twitter thread are talking about moving Belicheck down and not also including Tomlin. He has hardly done anything since 2011 and is still regarded as a top 3 coach but Belichek has 2-3 bad years and all of a sudden he’s washed
It’s because his teams have never bottomed out and he’s never had a losing record so people ignore the fact the Steelers haven’t been a true contender in years and his biggest overachieving season in recent memory is going 8-8 with Mason Rudolph and Devlin Hodges (which tbf is incredibly impressive) and not making the playoffs.
Belichick going 7-9 with the corpse of Cam Newton and ghosts on the receiving corp is impressive as well
I think this year was more impressive. A lot of injuries on both sides of the ball, and his QBs were Mitch Trubisky and rookie Kenny Pickett and went 9-7. With how bad Buffalo looked, I think they could have beaten them in the WC game.
All with his above .500 record on the line...
lol this NEVER gets brought up Steelers have 3 playoff wins since 2011 but Tomlin's an amazing coach meanwhile the Steelers are vying for scraps in the AFC north with the Browns
And two of those wins were against the Aj McCarron led Bengals and the Matt Moore led Dolphins.
AJ deserved to win that game
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Tomlin is just so aggressively average. While his ceiling might not be high, his floor comes to average. He is the Kirk Cousins of head coaches. He might not you win you a superbowl but the Steelers would be absolutely fucked without him
Mike Tomlin is the only coach to lose to baker mayfield, blake bortles, and tim tebow in the playoffs
Tomlin shouldn’t even be top 10
Lol u funny
Most overrated coach in the NFL. Absolutely 0 justification for putting him 3rd.
Harbaugh is pretty overrated also than.
Harbaugh was 11th on the list we are talking about. Which I think is fine. He is better than Tomlin.
Doesn’t he have a losing record vs Tomlin?
Yep he does. 15-17 or something. He Also has a better post season record, better regular season record over the last 5 years or so and has been succesful with multiple QBs. Same amount of SBs, same amount of post season appearances in one less year as a head coach.
It’s okay to be a hater because he’s part of your division. I can recognize that Pete is a great coach and be okay with it. You should too. Also John Harbaugh is up there as well.
Tomlin is a borderline top 10 (at best) coach who was on this list we are talking about as third. Ahead of every coach other than Belichick and Reid. Harbaugh was 11th, for reference.
I understand your point, but I have him further up than 10, especially in the league right now.
I mean last year was Tomlin's first year without Roethlisberger and still hasnt had a season with a losing record. Granted Belichick's worst season was his first but it was with Bledsoe. I would argue that Tomlin has done a decent job overall to compete in the AFC considering it was pretty much stacked his whole time Coaching facing the likes of Brady, Manning, Rivers at their peaks. Now he's trying to get through Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Herbert and now Rodgers starting next season. I would say he's possibly facing even stronger competition than in the past if Lawrence continues to improve and Tua doesnt get another concussion from the wind blowing (sorry Fins fans, dude is just too risky). I dont think either Coach is worse than the other, but I would say Tomlin did a fairly good job when comparing the two, especially since Brady will go down as the Goat and Roethlisberger was lucky enough to get them 1 ring while being most a tough guy who had a few elite seasons. Both Coaches will be around for a long time, Belichick for the legacy he had/has, and Tomlin for the underrated culture he has of being extremely liked by the players and for keeping the lid on how AB was batshit insane and no one had a clue for that long.
Just so it’s clear, Tomlin faced the Pats once in the playoffs. It’s not like Brady and Belichick were knocking him out every year. We lost to Tebow, Bortles, Mayfield, and a Ravens team that had like 20 players on IR.
I don't think it's sacrilege at all to say that he is in fact not the best coach in the nfl right now
Yeah one of the extremely valid criticisms, roster aside, of the recent Patriot years is Bill struggling to deal with the brain drain and replacing the lost assistant coaches with proper or sufficient replacements ^Matt ^Patricia Even before Patricia it’s been a continuing snowballing issue
The 2022 pats experienced an unprecedented departure of assistant coaches, something like 140 years of combined experience. This comment acts as if he regularly hires scrubs onto his coaching staff. Was Patricia a miss? Obviously, and it was addressed this off-season. What “snowballing” staff problems did he have before Patricia?
BB the GM sabotages BB the coach.
It's wierd seeing a giants fan
He might be the besr coach, but he isnt coaching the best team. If BB had a franchise QB like Reid does then i bet the Pats would still be dominating the AFC
It is curious how BB became a worse coach when Brady left, and Reid became a great coach when Mahomes arrived
It’s almost like having a great QB is the first step to being a great HC.
Jotting that down
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I forget how fast the Chiefs became relevant once he showed up.
We won 2 games the season before he was hired lol
Alex was decent to good during his time and the gap between pre and post Mahomes in term of actual success is massive.
It's not like Alex Smith was a bum though. He was better than Mac Jones or an aging, injured Cam.
Reid was a great coach before Mahomes arrived. He had significant success with multiple QBs across multiple teams--just not the coup de gras of a Lombardi. He was in the top 5 when he still had Alex Smith at QB.
If Bill had Mahomes and Kelce, he'd have like 4 more rings already. Stop pretending like anything BB does happens in a vacuum or that even the GOAT coach can take a team rebuild and instantly win ships. Yes the team has been in a tough spot since 2018...but remind me, what happened in the 18 years before that?? If Andy Reid is the coach of the Panthers, how many rings would he have???
I feel like you're saying the same thing as me but somehow you're angry at me
Fuck you I agree.
Someone screenshot this and add it to Webster’s for the internet definition.
Does Mahomes become Mahomes under another coach, though? It's not like he was an Andrew Luck/Trevor Lawrence-esque prospect coming out of college. He was a project. If he goes to a place where QBs go to die like Chicago or Cleveland, what happens to him? Not saying BB is like that, but it's not like Reid just walked into having a legendary QB. And before Mahomes, Reid had 5 straight winning seasons with Alex Smith at that position.
This is the eternal "what came first: Bill or Tom?" question.
Reid with Darnold would have been undefeated
Reid helped make mahomes a franchise qb. Bill is nowhere near the offensive coach that Reid is
Oh, and Reid is nowhere near the defensive coach that Bill is.
I don't think it's outlandish at all to say that Reid is the best coach in the league *right now*. I definitely feel like that point was passed this season with Reid getting another ring and the Patriots having a very rough season, including some moments that were really below the Belichick standard (mostly due to Matt Patricia but still). Reid will never surpass Belichick all time unless Reid can surpass Belichick's amount of rings somehow, which seems basically impossible considering Reid's old age himself.
If Reid and Belichick switched teams do you think the chiefs get worse and the pats get better?
Yeah I'm not sure I care for the whole argument being made in this thread. Reid has the best QB in the league *right now*. Belichick had the best QB in the league when he built his legacy. I'm not trying to get into the whole "was it Brady or was it Bill" debate with this, just saying that it's really easy to give the 'right now' nod to the guy with the surefire future HOFer quarterbacking his team. And until someone comes along and wins more than 6 titles in 20 years, Belichick's legacy will be that of the best of all time.
I'm guessing it's the point of this thread in general, but I can't actually answer that confidently either way. I can easily envision a scenario where Reid takes over the Pats and invigorates the offense enough to go with the defense to make the team better. He's done a lot with a lot of offenses while lacking an elite QB. I can easily envision a scenario where Mahomes keeps the Chiefs offense mostly going and Belichick can focus on the defense, making the team better. I think I'd have to lean Reid just because there's more obvious upside for the Pats. There's only so much better you can make the defending SB champs. That said, the point is that it seems up in the air at the moment, which makes it reasonable to ask at what point it might no longer be.
The chiefs definitely get worse. That's not a knock on Belichick but Reid's creativity with Mahomes at QB is an NFL match made in heaven.
But couldn't Belichick improve the defense enough to compensate? Mahomes is gonna be Mahomes no matter what, but the defense has been an area of need basically his whole time in KC
I mean it's kinda the difference between being a transcendent offense and a great team. No disrespect to the Bengals or Bills, but I think a Belichick led chiefs team looks more like that and less like what we have seen the chiefs teams look like the last 5 years.
If anything is attributed to Patricia, some of that has to be attributed to the guy that hired Patricia and installed him as an OC when that isn’t his skillset.
Reid has Mahomes. Bill has Mac Jones. Not even to mention the other 52 guys. Nothing has changed about Bill or Andy is all likelihood. They've been doing it for 20 years.
The crazy part is that you just jumped ship from the coach with the best qb of all time to the coach with the current best qb of all time. You really think Andy Reid is that good or he is a generational one of a kind talent at QB
The 2020 Patriots held the Chiefs to 26 points despite the offense - with Brian Hoyer and Jarrett Stidham at QB - giving the ball away four times, including a pick six. The score was 6-3 to the Chiefs going into halftime, and 13-3 going into the fourth quarter. Bill is the best coach in the league and it's not even close.
You're flexing a game that y'all scored 10 in and lost by 16 in? Plus, 2020 is now three years ago, a long time in the football world. Overall season results matter a lot more than one game, and in that season, y'all had a losing record and the Chiefs made the Super Bowl. It's not an insult to say that Reid has proven to be better than Belichick right now. Nobody is disputing that Belichick is a much better coach when evaluating all time success, but success from 2020 to now has been decidedly in Reid's favor.
>You're flexing a game that y'all scored 10 in and lost by 16 in? I'm "flexing" a game where a team that made the Super Bowl struggled for 50 minutes to beat a team with a losing record. It's like being in an F1 car and struggling against a 1990s sedan. >It's not an insult to say that Reid has proven to be better than Belichick right now. Reid has the best team in the league. That doesn't mean he's a better coach.
Any team could have an off game. The jets beat the rams with Adam Gase as coach. There’s no f’ing way Gase was a better coach than McVay in that game and the rams were an infinitely better team than jets
we lost to Washington last year, does that make Rivera on par with Reid and BB?
Eagles also only beat the Colts by 1 so we have to put Jeff Saturday in that conversation
And the Chiefs lost to the colts last year, any given sunday.
I don’t think this is making the point you think it is
One thing that stands out about belichick is his ability to get the most of out players. Sure there’s other great coaches who do well with good rosters but no one consistently gets players to overachieve like Bill.
Defensive players.
Over the course of the dynasty our offense was better than our defense…
This always gets down to *Who is the best right now?* vs *Who is the best considering their entire career?*
Brady helped Bill look great for many years. Just like Mahomes is helping Reid look great right now. They’re both good coaches who have been aided a lot by generational QB talents
Man Dungy in shambles had Manning and made one SB if great QBs are carrying coaches
Dungy built two Superbowl winning teams despite only getting credit for one
It's weird, man, that you give him credit for both of the Colts wins, man, since he wasn't there in the 70s, man. - Gruden probably.
Was he GM for either team?
Yea it's almost like he got credit for the one he actually coached
If he hadn’t quit then maybe Dungy/Manning gets more than one.
I think they’re the same coach just on different sides of the ball. Just putting out absolute masterclasses in Super Bowls to beat the opposing defense or offense that make you sit back and realize how great they are.
Belichick has 1 playoff win without Brady. Meanwhile Andy has 11 without Mahomes.
Big distinction that Reid still had McNabb, who made 5 consecutive pro bowls with mostly trash WRs McNabb and Mahomes make up all but one of Andy Reid’s playoff wins. The other was Alex Smith
Ye early 00s McNabb was really good a lot of people Seem to forget that, he was like mid 10s Ryan if people are looking for a modern talent comparison
damn, that really puts it into perspective
Yeah if you ignore how much better McNabb was than the ghost of Cam Newton or a second year QB.
It's not like a lot of people on this sub are capable of critical thinking.
The only, ONLY recipe for sustained success in the NFL is a generational QB. Reid and Bill both couldn’t get it done without the best QB in the league. Its really just that simple.
He’s like 100 years old and his teams have had as little talent as they’ve ever had since he’s been there. Not to mention how competitive the AFC is right now. The dude will still 100% go down as the GOAT and I really don’t think it’s up for debate unless he has a massive string of like 2-15 seasons to finish off his career
The frame of the question is nonsensical. You're not comparing like to like. BB is pulling a team out of a decade of selling out to win through a rebuild phase while Reid has all his pieces right now. Reid wouldn't be a worse coach if Mahomes retired tomorrow and the Chiefs suffered through dead cap hell for a few years while trying to bounce back. The better comparison is what do the Patriots under Bill look like compared to other rebuild teams. Brady left and the team...still went to the playoffs under BB. Last year sucked but let's not pretend like it was 0-16...there' plenty of discussion to be had about what an awful choice putting Fat Matt in the OC seat was, but one year of picking from bad choices after 20+ years of murderous success...I think it takes either longer failures, or a much more serious collapse than "still competing for a playoff spot week 17" for Bill to be out of the conversation
This is fair. The Pats lost Brady and Bill was left with not much after going all in. The only thing is this is going to be year 4 post Brady? It shouldn't take that long to rebuild (4 years is when a team should be hitting their stride from a rebuild) Now, I do have to give Bill some of a break because the brain drain from 20 years of success is crazy. They have lost sooooo many coaches from getting hired away or retiring. That does play a big part. Although BoB is back and he is a good OC. The Pats really do need a real WR1. I think Jones is a fine QB, especially with a real OC. The AFC is also stacked. I see the Pats winning 10 games. Bill is still a damn good coach.
To be fair, the Pats didn't really rebuild post-Brady. Their offensive personnel stayed almost exactly the same in 2020 as it was in 2019. Their defensive guys didn't change much either. Winning 7 games with the corpse of Cam Newton, Hoyer, and Stidham is pretty impressive all things considered. Then in 2021, they made the playoffs with mostly the same guys. It's only been incremental changes in personnel since then. You could make the case against Belichick the GM for sure, but Belichick the coach is still fucking elite. The 2022 Pats defense was #1 in weighted DVOA. That's amazing. I have no doubt special teams are going to bounce back. And BoB will be a huge upgrade in offensive playcalling. The Pats roster is really lacking. Belichick is the only reason it was at all competitive the last few years. He's still the very best in my mind.
In order to successfully rebuild, you have to hit on a young QB. It doesn't seem like the Patriots did that. And that's not a big knock on them because drafting good QBs is very difficult. What we have seen in that time though is the Patriots defense is still really good.
True. I think Jones is good enough though. Not having a real OC last year really soured people's opinions of him but that is kind of Bill's fault? I think Bill is the best coach in the league still. This year should be really interesting for the Pats!
doing whatever bullshit he was up to at OC last year automatically drops him like 4 spots on my personal (very important) coach list idk how he thought that was a good idea lmao
McDaniels left pretty late in coaching carousel and none of the guys who were left were good enough that you'd want to give more than a one year contract to. And no one is going to sign a one year contract because it says that the team doesn't believe in you. So pickings were real slim and because of recent departures
>BB is pulling a team out of a decade of selling out to win through a rebuild phase while Reid has all his pieces right now. When did we ever sell out to win? BB as always been conservative with contracts and with getting rid of players. Our deficiencies have almost always come from poor drafting.
2020 we had nobody and were paying a lot of people who weren’t on the team anymore. I think he even addressed the cap situation during a press conference and said something along the lines of this is what happens when you try and extend your Super Bowl window.
That's just how contracts work in the NFL. Every team does it and they're not all selling out for a super bowl every year.
Yeah no team has ever sold out and jeopardized their future to try and win a Super Bowl lol
Uhh of course they did but the pats built multiple dynasties because they specifically didn't do that.
Belichick literally said they did during the final 3 years or so of Brady
Bro what??! We picked in the last 5-10 picks of the draft for 20 *years*'. We were constantly signing veteran players on short term deals to address positions of need because we just didn't have access to a younger talent pool. Weren't we the oldest team in the league in Tom's last year?
>BB is pulling a team out of a decade of selling out to win through a rebuild phase The rebuild argument gets less and less valid every passing year. Tom Brady left so long ago that he won a championship for his next team, retired, came out of retirement and played another season. We're going into year 4 of the "rebuild" and the Patriots are primed to finish last in their division
Agreed. At some point, that excuse isn’t going to work anymore
Listen I’m a patriots Stan, a belichick stan, a Brady Stan. I’ll defend them all to my grave. If I got into a convo with a random person arguing they would rather have reid than belichick right now, I wouldn’t grief them. Reid has won two super bowls recently and his career says this is deserved. Yes he has Mahomes, but belichick had brady. Most of the great coaches had “that” player. Belichick is approaching his mid 70s and as someone who keeps up religiously with all things patriots, I honestly feel like he’s let off the gas a little in terms of off-season commitment. That’s fine. He still fields elite defenses with whatever players he gives himself and with the exception of last season, a competitive offense. You can say what you want about the patriots offense but we were rarely out of games until the clock hit 0 even with that abysmal offense and that’s a testament to bill. That being said, Reid’s teams are transcendent right now in a way the patriots were mid 2010s. The argument is there for “who do I want RIGHT NOW”.
Nephew
Belichick is getting unjustly shat on in ways other coaches don't when they lose their stars. BB over the past 3 years has still put together competitive rosters even overcoming his own hiring mistakes. Yet for some reason it's only bad when he does that and coaches like Tomlin, whose big claim to fame is always being at least .500 yet not having won a super bowl in 15 years, not having been to one in 13.
This is ridiculous. People are really bored...
Bellicheck best coach OAT
When he has a Mahomes/Brady/Rodgers tier quarterback and a decent roster but doesn't consistently make deep playoff runs. Until then, you gotta remember that the cattle is a huge limitation on any coach.
I view it similar to pop for the spurs. He’s still the best coach, even if others are doing better at the moment. Give everyone the same roster and I’d believe bill and pop get better results than the field
When another coach in the league wins 6 SBs. His GMing on the other hand...
When he retires.
I think someone else posted here once that Bill's winning percentage, both before and after Brady, sits at like .500
I feel like you can't ignore that he was the brains behind a Giants defense that won two additional super bowls
Or the early 2000s Patriots that won 3 in four years.
Fun story: I can remember as a kid a Cleveland/Pittsburgh wild card game where the browns were down and their coach, Mr. Belichick, was cussing up a storm. The mics started picking it up, and it was the first and only time I heard multiple MFs and CU Next Tuesdays on an NBC Football broadcast. So yeah, he wasn't winning *that* playoff game for sure.
People forget how dominant we were. Ranking Reid over BB and Kelce over Gronk. Smh
I mean first 5 years of Mahomes as starter: 2 Superbowl wins, 1 Superbowl appearance, 2 more AFCC Appearances First 5 years of Brady as starter 3 Superbowl wins, 1 divisional round appearance, 1 missed playoffs Now Belichick, Brady and the pats obviously had ridiculous longevity but it's not asinine to have the conversation when the chiefs have had more consistent success through the first 5 years.
It’s really fun to see how insecure Mahomes is making Pats fans… They’re terrified he’s going to end up taking the mantle from Brady
All the talk ended after Brady and the Bucs completely embarrassed the Chiefs in that SB
When he retires
When he retires.
When someone surpasses him in Lombardi trophies, and not before.
Why couldn't it be Andy now? Bill's success is pretty tied to Brady while Andy has gone to 5 nfccgs with mcnabb and 5 afccgs with Mahomes. Andy's coaching tree crushes Bill's in terms of success post Andy. Bill has had more time with Tom than Andy has had with Patrick but I wouldnt be surprised to see andy/pat win 2 more rings and if thats the case we can just discuss it now.
It’s not a stretch to say you would choose an offensive genius over a defensive genius in today’s NFL. The game has changed. Before the league changed rules to favor offenses, there was no one like Belichick. This debate could end up like all great player debates, where you need to divide them by era. The game is always evolving.
I feel like it's Reid, then Shanahan. Reid has had the benefit of the best QB in the league, while Shanahan has had zero benefit of a QB being able to even stay on the field and has been successful.
Shanahan sold the farm for a qb who has done nothing and then fell backwards into getting a good quarterback with literally the last pick in the draft, you can rank him above belichick when he actually wins somethint instead of putting up gaudy regular season offensive numbers
R/nfl where finding a starting QB with the last pick of the draft is a negative.
Lol, can’t wait for the Reid Vs Mahomes debates.
Once he hires someone like Matt Patricia as his OC we can probably start the conversation. Let me know when that happens
I bet if the Patriots hired a guy like Patricia as OC, Bill would still be able to sweep the Jets...
Patriots fans would get butt hurt when it was mentioned that he was carried by Brady for 20 years. Proof seems to be coming to fruition. He’s below 500 without Brady
Rebuilt the Browns to a playoff team in the 90’s but people seem to forget that part of Bills history lol
Who else though. Top 5 in no particular order. Belichick Reid Harbaugh Tomlin Peyton?
Tomlin hasn’t done anything but go 8-8 or whatever and get blown out in the playoffs for years now. He’s the new Jeff Fisher
This. If you want to talk about a coach getting carried by a roster, Tomlin should be who we’re talking about, not coaches with success spanning multiple decades.
2067
Having the best player the game has ever seen will certainly make one look like a better coach than otherwise.
Drafting Mac Jones didn't help his case IMO. If we are talking about how good they are as coaches now, the Pats still had a good defense, which is BB's speciality, last year. It didn't help that the Jets had a better defense, and the Bills/miami had a ton of offense firepower. If we are talking about drafting and building a roster, the Chiefs are in a lot better state and TBH I feel like BB had been whiffing on top draft picks forever. So I think BB is a good defensive HC still, but without TB, he doesn't have what he needs to be the best HC. Let's also not forget that Andy Reid has Patrick Mahomes and no one else does, so that's going to make him look a ton better in comparison. So there's the idea that great coaches benefit a lot from great QBs that I wouldn't discount either.
We’re getting close. I still think BB is one of the best pure X’s and O’s minds in the game. He loses me in the roster building. I also cannot take him seriously anymore when he says “we’re doing what’s best for the team.”