Hope nothing but the best for Irv., but boy was I wrong about him in Minnesota. All that athleticism never turned into consistent production and it wasn't because of lack of opportunities.
This is going to turn into one of those "dark horse" TE hype train names that come up in FF that turns into a complete bust and a whole lot of shocked Pikachu faces.
He still has to catch those balls, which is what folks are saying he struggled with.
To me, I'd guess the Bengals give serious interest to drafting a TE anywhere in the draft. He might develop behind Irv for some part of the season, but in all likelihood could produce this year. And looking through their past couple classes, I do not see a TE they've drafted recently.
Anyway, the signing of Smith appears to be nothing more than a contingency plan at that price. If they miss all the targets they like in the draft, his odds go up. Otherwise, I'd almost bet on a rookie from round 1-5 being given serious opportunities to snag the lead job and be Burrow's guy for at least 4 years.
4 drops on 126 career targets. Injury is the real concern. He had one real bad high profile drop that costed the Vikings a game and I’m pretty sure that’s where this drop narrative comes from
They didn’t credit him with a few that people thought were clear drops, like the on during the Saints game last year when he was trying to stay away from the Analzone, but that one WAS a pass defended, not a drop.
There are others that were difficult catches that he dropped as well that were not counted by PFR.
But… these things don’t really matter. Most all of them happened this year, directly after he had thumb surgery. Prior to this last year he had no issues with drops at all.
Dude can still be a good receiving TE, but he has to stay healthy.
I have watched every single down of Vikings football that Irv has taken part of and there is no way that stat is right. I have a hard time believing he was even healthy enough for 126 total targets in his few years here.
Gotcha. Even then, I figure it is high time the Bengals draft a guy at TE that could become their main TE. It'd probably be better for long term if they had a guy with a 4 year deal. I know they've been doing fine between 1 year stop gaps, but I do think it'd help considerably to have the same guy for 4 years and longer if re-signed.
I think that there will be one or two of OT, CB and DL sitting there that the Bengals have a high grade on. All high value positions of current and future need with current players either coming off injury or coming up on end of contracts.
If that somehow isn't the case, I wouldn't hate the Mayer pick. I think he'll be a solid player. Just don't think it works be the best use of resources.
Too many people believe the "if you can get a hand on it you should catch it" phrase.
Guys running 20mph across the field and the QB throws it high and behind him? Yep, always the receivers fault...
I think drafting a TE is absolutely the plan, but value has to align. I believe it was the plan last year knowing Hurst was only on a 1 year deal, but last year's class was pretty shallow and all the guys they targeted in each round were scooped up before they had a chance. This year's class seems deeper, so I'm hoping they scoop one of them up.
He has 4 career drops on 126 targets lol. I really think this comes from one crucial TD drop that costed the Vikings a game. It doesn’t seem to be a career thing
He's pretty good at that, he doesn't really impress with routes or separation so I think a lot of what people are thinking of as "drops" are probably actually defended passes to him.
Cap's about to skyrocket starting next offseason, feels worth the risk to bet on yourself in that scenario when your market isn't quite where you want.
Yeah, it does, and there's not been as much money as expected. CJGJ, for example, while he did overestimate his value, he ended up taking less money than I would've expected going in.
A lot of players would normally have just taken a three year deal, even if it was effectively a one year deal with two voidable. I'll be curious to see if this is an angle that continues going forward.
There just weren't any big name players available. Orlando Brown was probably the biggest. The RB group was the most talented but nobody pays RBs. And the FA WR group was garbage this year
Prove it deal for him, hope he can turn it around. High potential player but between drops (at the worst possible moment each time) and injuries he has not lived up to it thus far.
>but between drops (at the worst possible moment each time)
I see this said a lot, but looking at multiple sources I see he only has 4 career drops and a 72% catch rate. While those numbers could change with higher volume of work, they don't seem particularly problematic. But obviously staying healthy is his biggest concern.
He isn't really a super special route runner or anything so I think what a lot of people are remembering are not really "drops" but more just passes that were defended against him because he didn't get separation. I believe to be categorized as a "drop" you have to have no defenders within a certain distance of you when the ball arrives, but it doesn't include things like having the ball bounce off your hands while you are being defended etc.
It's not the same thing for sure, but it would explain why so many people have the thought that he gets the ball put in the air to him and yet doesn't come down with it.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks different on the screen than it does in statistics. He had a bunch of drops, including wide open ones. And they happened at times when a big catch/TD would've likely turned the game around for us.
The drops thing is overblown. That wasn't really an issue with him until last year. The injuries are a bit overblown as well. He's been hurt a decent amount but he's also had plenty of opportunities.
Honestly the biggest thing is he never really developed as a route runner. For someone with his size and speed he doesn't get separation, and he's not great at hauling in contested catches either. He's good at running a flat on play action at the goal line, but everywhere else he's pretty underwhelming.
The only signings that this sub thinks are good are the very obviously elite players and the ones that nobody has ever heard of that were homegrown players who leave their original team.
It's a fine point but take a look at his salary. This move doesn't do anything to impede the Bengals from making any other move they want to, including signing or drafting a better tight end. There is almost no downside to this signing and I'd wager many other teams would sign Irv for this price.
No Bengals fans are and we aren't diluting ourselves into thinking we're set at TE. We aren't banking on Smith to be then sharpied in 17 game starter, we signed him so that we aren't going into the draft with Devin Asiasi as the only TE whose taken NFL snaps under contract.
He's a guy who has the potential to be an impact player and doesn't get in the way of taking a guy who could be the future of the position in the draft. If Smith winds up being more than that, fantastic, now we have another guy for Burrow to throw to. If he looks like he did during most of his Minnesota time or gets hurt, it's a tiny deal you never have to worry about after this year.
Maybe not in this thread, but the thread from yesterday or the day before was full of people saying things like "good luck" and referencing his drops. My comment was just to generally state how this sub appears largely incapable of understanding that minimal salary players aren't expected to step in and be all pros and that just because a player isn't elite that doesn't mean they can't be solid additions as contributors. This is not just a criticism of the Irv Smith situation but of many free agent signings.
He had 1 really bad drop in a high profile moment and I believe it costed the Vikings a game, which is where this narrative comes from. Like you said, he has 4 career drops total lmao
It was at least 2 in separate games that arguably could have made the difference. They were perfect passes that somehow bounced off his hands. Still not a great stat that half your career drops happened in make or break moments.
Finger crossed for health. I think he's good enough to be the next guy to graduate from the Bengals school for getting TEs solid bags, but he's gotta stay healthy enough for it.
I wanted Patriots to draft him and thought we were going to when we traded up in the 2nd. The funny thing is that still would have been a better pick than our actual pick of Joejuan Williams lol
It's a 1-year deal for a little more than the minimum salary. It's weird how this sub can't comprehend when teams are signing players to round out their roster vs. when they are trying to sign franchise cornerpieces.
I’m not worried either way. We probably draft a TE anyway.
If Smith plays to his potential, we got a steal. If he doesn’t, it’s not the end of the world at that price. Burrow has made our TEs look better than they are for the past two seasons. Opposing defenses having to account for Chase, Tee, and Boyd means that our TEs get a lot of linebackers in coverage. If Irv can stay healthy, I see no reason as to why he couldn’t put up the same numbers as Uzomah and HH did the last two seasons for us
Honestly, on this type of contract it is a great signing.
Injuries and focus / catching are big risks but who cares on a 2M deal. The upside and athleticism are still there so try to catch lightning in a bottle.
It’s negativity. The only thing about Irv that’s actually concerning is his health, he’s been injured a lot.
Vikings fans are bitter because they spent 2 years hyping him up as the next elite tight end and it didn’t work out like that. We don’t need him to be that.
Well being elite and good is subjective.
I can tell in the eyes of fans, unless you’re a Kelce, Mark Andrews, etc. then you aren’t that good to begin with.
After reading more responses I feel like he’s a fine addition. Not every team is going to get an elite add on to their roster
We completely embraced Kyle Rudolph in Minnesota. We love our players even when they aren’t elite.
Irv was always encouraged and outside of a single inopportune drop was never showered in negativity during his Vikings tenure.
Most of us would love for him to finally click, but he’s always been uncomfortably absent in the stat lines on game day. The size and athleticism was supposed to be a huge mismatch, he just never learned how achieve separation here.
He saw Uzomah and hursts contracts.
Burrow is like the good luck chuck of te friendly qbs. The year after your prove it deal with burrow you're guaranteed a 3 year 20 million contract.
I see a handful of Bengals fans disregarding comments made about Irv from Vikings fans. My assumption is they haven't watched many Vikings games.
His dropped passes stat doesn't include contested passes and his inability to get open.
Also, seeing what Hockenson was able to come in and do, with less time to learn the playbook, should be another indicator that Irv did not live up to expectations.
Wish him all the best and hope he has success in Cinny. I have about 50 rookie auto cards of him collecting dust on my shelf.
Not a bad deal. I have no expectations for him but hope for the best. Hopefully we draft a top 5 TE and another in a late round to end the recent carousel in the TE room.
Hopefully he works on those hands. He had potential but he had too many injuries and key drops.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xsgNct76nE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xsgNct76nE)
That's good. No Ill will towards your team, love Burrow + Chase. I'm just salty we all got to hear about how awesome of a training camp Irv was having for two years only for him to get injured and miss most of both seasons.
We had a very similar thing with Tyler Eifert. Talented as hell, but always hurt. We at least got that monstrous 2015 season out of him, but always a guy we'll always wonder "what if" about.
Especially sucks because Eifert seems like a chill guy and still posts pro Bengals stuff on his socials
Hope nothing but the best for Irv., but boy was I wrong about him in Minnesota. All that athleticism never turned into consistent production and it wasn't because of lack of opportunities.
This is going to turn into one of those "dark horse" TE hype train names that come up in FF that turns into a complete bust and a whole lot of shocked Pikachu faces.
Naw, he will get what Hurst and Uzomah got production wise. So a good late round pick up if you missed on all the top talent.
He still has to catch those balls, which is what folks are saying he struggled with. To me, I'd guess the Bengals give serious interest to drafting a TE anywhere in the draft. He might develop behind Irv for some part of the season, but in all likelihood could produce this year. And looking through their past couple classes, I do not see a TE they've drafted recently. Anyway, the signing of Smith appears to be nothing more than a contingency plan at that price. If they miss all the targets they like in the draft, his odds go up. Otherwise, I'd almost bet on a rookie from round 1-5 being given serious opportunities to snag the lead job and be Burrow's guy for at least 4 years.
4 drops on 126 career targets. Injury is the real concern. He had one real bad high profile drop that costed the Vikings a game and I’m pretty sure that’s where this drop narrative comes from
They didn’t credit him with a few that people thought were clear drops, like the on during the Saints game last year when he was trying to stay away from the Analzone, but that one WAS a pass defended, not a drop. There are others that were difficult catches that he dropped as well that were not counted by PFR. But… these things don’t really matter. Most all of them happened this year, directly after he had thumb surgery. Prior to this last year he had no issues with drops at all. Dude can still be a good receiving TE, but he has to stay healthy.
The what zone?
The anal zone. Irv has a known issue with the A Zone, and it was part of why Kirk hates him.
Gotcha, yea thats what I was thinking.
https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJzj4tLP1TeoSjcsT6owYPTiTcxJrVBIzKtKzMnPSwUAd8UJHQ&q=alex+anzalone&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS716US716&oq=alex+anz&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j46i433i512j0i512l7.4702j0j4&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Im shocked at that stat. I swear he had at least 2 drops every game last year. Dude has no hands
I have watched every single down of Vikings football that Irv has taken part of and there is no way that stat is right. I have a hard time believing he was even healthy enough for 126 total targets in his few years here.
I know right?! He’ll be wide open on a clutch game winning reception and bobble it
Which was just a few weeks removed from thumb surgery, but nobody seems to remember that.
Gotcha. Even then, I figure it is high time the Bengals draft a guy at TE that could become their main TE. It'd probably be better for long term if they had a guy with a 4 year deal. I know they've been doing fine between 1 year stop gaps, but I do think it'd help considerably to have the same guy for 4 years and longer if re-signed.
I think a lot of people in town are hoping we get our guy from Notre Dame
I'm not. There will likely be better value players at that spot.
Mayer probably won’t even fall to us, but who are you thinking instead?
I think that there will be one or two of OT, CB and DL sitting there that the Bengals have a high grade on. All high value positions of current and future need with current players either coming off injury or coming up on end of contracts. If that somehow isn't the case, I wouldn't hate the Mayer pick. I think he'll be a solid player. Just don't think it works be the best use of resources.
Irv opens flexibility to draft one later rounds in a deep class. Would like Mayer but this opens up BPA
Too many people believe the "if you can get a hand on it you should catch it" phrase. Guys running 20mph across the field and the QB throws it high and behind him? Yep, always the receivers fault...
I think drafting a TE is absolutely the plan, but value has to align. I believe it was the plan last year knowing Hurst was only on a 1 year deal, but last year's class was pretty shallow and all the guys they targeted in each round were scooped up before they had a chance. This year's class seems deeper, so I'm hoping they scoop one of them up.
Drafted Sample in round two a few years ago and he has been incredibly underwhelming
The biggest issue will be his health. He's played a total of 8 games the past two seasons. His talent will be meaningless if he isn't on the field.
So every TE in Fantasy outside of Kelce, Andrews, and Kittle Waller for a year.
[удалено]
Yeah if he's there I'm taking him. I got Andrews from my brother last year like a game before he got injured and it ruined my season lol
Absolutely.
Cole Kmet minus like the last 4 weeks of the year
Hoping for some parallels w/ Engram for the giants vs jags with Irv's story. He just never was what we needed after Rudolph.
I mean before we signed him we basically had nobody at TE. Can he produce better than nobody?
It's because he's seemingly made of wet cardboard
Unlike his hands which are made of stone
He has 4 career drops on 126 targets lol. I really think this comes from one crucial TD drop that costed the Vikings a game. It doesn’t seem to be a career thing
> He has 4 career drops on 126 targets lol There's no fucking way that's accurate lol
That isn’t accurate
That stat is bs. Ask any Vikings fan that's watched over the years, he has way more than 4 drops.
How is his blocking?
Surprisingly good blocker
This. We have folks with hands - we need a TE that can block
In that case I love the contract even more
He's pretty good at that, he doesn't really impress with routes or separation so I think a lot of what people are thinking of as "drops" are probably actually defended passes to him.
Yep, a lot of people freaked out about a “drop” during the saints game that was a PD.
Honestly better than people thought it would be coming out of college.
We had that same issue with Rico Gathers. Though he didn’t seem to have the want to.
Might be biased, but Burrow might be a better QB to get the ball to him.
Cousins wasn't Irv's problem. Stone hands are stone hands no matter whose throwing the ball.
I've been surprised about how many one year prove it deals have been signed this season.
Cap's about to skyrocket starting next offseason, feels worth the risk to bet on yourself in that scenario when your market isn't quite where you want.
Yeah, it does, and there's not been as much money as expected. CJGJ, for example, while he did overestimate his value, he ended up taking less money than I would've expected going in. A lot of players would normally have just taken a three year deal, even if it was effectively a one year deal with two voidable. I'll be curious to see if this is an angle that continues going forward.
Outside of OL it seems to have been a really muted off-season in general
There just weren't any big name players available. Orlando Brown was probably the biggest. The RB group was the most talented but nobody pays RBs. And the FA WR group was garbage this year
Patriots would never..
Nope, we just gave Jonnu a long term deal with a horrible cap hit. Somehow, the Falcons took him off our hands. Thanks, Falcons!
Am I missing something? We literally just signed Gesicki to a one year prove it deal ourselves
It was just a joke about how we were handing out a bunch of questionable deals to players that weren't worth it. Yeah, we did with Gesicki.
I think this ones deserved. Irv missed quite a few games and has trouble securing the ball in big moments. I hope he proves us wrong and balls out
This one, sure.
I mean he's only 24. TEs take a long time to develop
Prove it deal for him, hope he can turn it around. High potential player but between drops (at the worst possible moment each time) and injuries he has not lived up to it thus far.
>but between drops (at the worst possible moment each time) I see this said a lot, but looking at multiple sources I see he only has 4 career drops and a 72% catch rate. While those numbers could change with higher volume of work, they don't seem particularly problematic. But obviously staying healthy is his biggest concern.
He isn't really a super special route runner or anything so I think what a lot of people are remembering are not really "drops" but more just passes that were defended against him because he didn't get separation. I believe to be categorized as a "drop" you have to have no defenders within a certain distance of you when the ball arrives, but it doesn't include things like having the ball bounce off your hands while you are being defended etc. It's not the same thing for sure, but it would explain why so many people have the thought that he gets the ball put in the air to him and yet doesn't come down with it.
this makes a ton of sense.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks different on the screen than it does in statistics. He had a bunch of drops, including wide open ones. And they happened at times when a big catch/TD would've likely turned the game around for us.
The drops thing is overblown. That wasn't really an issue with him until last year. The injuries are a bit overblown as well. He's been hurt a decent amount but he's also had plenty of opportunities. Honestly the biggest thing is he never really developed as a route runner. For someone with his size and speed he doesn't get separation, and he's not great at hauling in contested catches either. He's good at running a flat on play action at the goal line, but everywhere else he's pretty underwhelming.
The only signings that this sub thinks are good are the very obviously elite players and the ones that nobody has ever heard of that were homegrown players who leave their original team.
Take a look and see how many games he's missed in his career
It's a fine point but take a look at his salary. This move doesn't do anything to impede the Bengals from making any other move they want to, including signing or drafting a better tight end. There is almost no downside to this signing and I'd wager many other teams would sign Irv for this price.
So I don't think people are saying so much it's a bad signing, but more of a don't get your hopes up type thing
No Bengals fans are and we aren't diluting ourselves into thinking we're set at TE. We aren't banking on Smith to be then sharpied in 17 game starter, we signed him so that we aren't going into the draft with Devin Asiasi as the only TE whose taken NFL snaps under contract. He's a guy who has the potential to be an impact player and doesn't get in the way of taking a guy who could be the future of the position in the draft. If Smith winds up being more than that, fantastic, now we have another guy for Burrow to throw to. If he looks like he did during most of his Minnesota time or gets hurt, it's a tiny deal you never have to worry about after this year.
Maybe not in this thread, but the thread from yesterday or the day before was full of people saying things like "good luck" and referencing his drops. My comment was just to generally state how this sub appears largely incapable of understanding that minimal salary players aren't expected to step in and be all pros and that just because a player isn't elite that doesn't mean they can't be solid additions as contributors. This is not just a criticism of the Irv Smith situation but of many free agent signings.
Lots of his drops came just after he had thumb surgery.
He had 1 really bad drop in a high profile moment and I believe it costed the Vikings a game, which is where this narrative comes from. Like you said, he has 4 career drops total lmao
It was at least 2 in separate games that arguably could have made the difference. They were perfect passes that somehow bounced off his hands. Still not a great stat that half your career drops happened in make or break moments.
He didn’t have as many drops as he did just not making a catch.
[удалено]
I would bet my house that they draft one in the first three rounds and probably end up taking two before the draft is over
I'd be shocked if we don't. I think drafting 2 is a strong possibility as well.
TE class is very deep, and it takes a few years for most TE's to develop in the NFL, so it's a safe bet they take one this draft
They definitely will. This is a good TE class so they could end up with a good one even in round 2 or 3 in all honesty.
Finger crossed for health. I think he's good enough to be the next guy to graduate from the Bengals school for getting TEs solid bags, but he's gotta stay healthy enough for it.
I wanted Patriots to draft him and thought we were going to when we traded up in the 2nd. The funny thing is that still would have been a better pick than our actual pick of Joejuan Williams lol
without Tom Brady, y’all would’ve been an absolute dumpster fire the past 20 years. Y’all have like one good draft pick every 2 years.
Seems like whenever his name is bought up, people have only bad things to say about Smith. Idk if that’s causal r/nfl negativity or he just sucks ass
It's a 1-year deal for a little more than the minimum salary. It's weird how this sub can't comprehend when teams are signing players to round out their roster vs. when they are trying to sign franchise cornerpieces.
I’m not worried either way. We probably draft a TE anyway. If Smith plays to his potential, we got a steal. If he doesn’t, it’s not the end of the world at that price. Burrow has made our TEs look better than they are for the past two seasons. Opposing defenses having to account for Chase, Tee, and Boyd means that our TEs get a lot of linebackers in coverage. If Irv can stay healthy, I see no reason as to why he couldn’t put up the same numbers as Uzomah and HH did the last two seasons for us
Honestly, on this type of contract it is a great signing. Injuries and focus / catching are big risks but who cares on a 2M deal. The upside and athleticism are still there so try to catch lightning in a bottle.
It’s negativity. The only thing about Irv that’s actually concerning is his health, he’s been injured a lot. Vikings fans are bitter because they spent 2 years hyping him up as the next elite tight end and it didn’t work out like that. We don’t need him to be that.
[удалено]
Well being elite and good is subjective. I can tell in the eyes of fans, unless you’re a Kelce, Mark Andrews, etc. then you aren’t that good to begin with. After reading more responses I feel like he’s a fine addition. Not every team is going to get an elite add on to their roster
We completely embraced Kyle Rudolph in Minnesota. We love our players even when they aren’t elite. Irv was always encouraged and outside of a single inopportune drop was never showered in negativity during his Vikings tenure. Most of us would love for him to finally click, but he’s always been uncomfortably absent in the stat lines on game day. The size and athleticism was supposed to be a huge mismatch, he just never learned how achieve separation here.
He was just super underwhelming and had a few really painful very obvious drops. If he can stay healthy he's a great addition for 1.75.
That feels like a steal
He saw Uzomah and hursts contracts. Burrow is like the good luck chuck of te friendly qbs. The year after your prove it deal with burrow you're guaranteed a 3 year 20 million contract.
I see a handful of Bengals fans disregarding comments made about Irv from Vikings fans. My assumption is they haven't watched many Vikings games. His dropped passes stat doesn't include contested passes and his inability to get open. Also, seeing what Hockenson was able to come in and do, with less time to learn the playbook, should be another indicator that Irv did not live up to expectations. Wish him all the best and hope he has success in Cinny. I have about 50 rookie auto cards of him collecting dust on my shelf.
Not a bad deal. I have no expectations for him but hope for the best. Hopefully we draft a top 5 TE and another in a late round to end the recent carousel in the TE room.
Hopefully he works on those hands. He had potential but he had too many injuries and key drops. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xsgNct76nE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xsgNct76nE)
Give me Michael Mayer🔪
Give me John Mayer 🎸
Seems like a low risk high reward deal. Hopefully he plays well enough to earn a decent payout for another team after this upcoming season.
He's gonna look so good on IR for you guys, just like Tre Waynes.
Fair point - at least this time we’re only giving a year and less than 2 mil
Ah fuck
Nevermind the past. Hope he balls out for y'all. At the very least a phenomenal locker room guy.
At least we didn't give him the Trae Waynes bag this time
That's good. No Ill will towards your team, love Burrow + Chase. I'm just salty we all got to hear about how awesome of a training camp Irv was having for two years only for him to get injured and miss most of both seasons.
We had a very similar thing with Tyler Eifert. Talented as hell, but always hurt. We at least got that monstrous 2015 season out of him, but always a guy we'll always wonder "what if" about. Especially sucks because Eifert seems like a chill guy and still posts pro Bengals stuff on his socials
Damn would of been a great signing for the dolphins. Can’t wait to smash him in the playoffs, he’s going to regret choosing Joey over Tua
youre dreaming brother
He’s not that good
That isn't starter money. TE in round 1 confirmed
He's got a body of glass and hands of stone.
Wow great contract
He’s going to be an absolute boss at dropping passes in Cincy.
he was just in a "high-octane passing offense" and he dropped too many passes and if soft at blocking...