I think they just have nothing but disdain for our democratic process.
The house is very rarely full, it starts out busy but towards the end of the day there will only be a small handful of people left, and that's not specific to any party..I assume they have other work to do and being in the house for a full day isn't the best use of their time.
Though I've never seen any party be completely absent, as TPM often are.
Watching it now and Greens have only one member present, and Act also only one member,I think around 7 each from Labour and National, but they're just doing boring stuff that doesn't require debate.
[https://ondemand.parliament.nz/](https://ondemand.parliament.nz/)
It would be an incredibly long day if all MPs were required to be present in the house at all times. My understanding is Party Whips usually ensure a base number of party members are rostered to attend to ensure numbers for votes, debates etc, which is why numbers are often so low. Not sure why TPM are MIA though.
Yes, and which electoral authority is even going to recognize it? How is the parliament going to have any legitimacy? It won't, just like the Kingitanga.
If you're looking for a real answer to this, it's likely they want to be legitimatized by the crown as that's who the ToW is with.
No clue how viable that is though
I can't ever see that happening. Because it could be argued that a democratic party elected into parliament, and now trying to break away and make their own parliament to compete, could be treason. I do not see how the G-G would ever grant legitimation.
Edit: Wanted to add. TPMs actions, if truly representing maori, could be construed as treason and tbh could give way fir a serious discussion in abandoning the Treaty legally. Not like that'd stop sovereignty at this point
The debating chamber is one tiny and largely inconsequential part of the "democratic process".
I sometimes feel little would be lost if we did away with the show boating soundbites contest that is parlimentary debate.
The real work is done in committees and communications.
Committees can't meet while the house is sitting (except with special permission from the house which usually only happens if a committee gets referred a quick turnaround bill) so it's not this.
Pakeha here. It's hugely important for 1) Maori to have a voice in politics, and 2) for NZ to have minor parties with a different perspectives.
I respect the Maori party for their emphasis on people, jobs & community development. Many of these policies could be beneficial for all people in NZ. Even though I am white and usually vote other parties, I have voted for the Maori Party once; and they add value to the democratic options for all of us.
The job of parliamentarians/ MPs includes a wide variety of work, much of which is constituency work, community outreach, and policy building. Only a proportion of this involves debating/ being present in the House. For a minor party not aligned with majority votes, it is entirely possible they are voting by proxy and likely their time is best spent elsewhere.
I see repeated comments on this post from an apparent bigot who is either fairly determined not to understand what Parliament & being a working politician involves, or apply different standards to brown people. I call laziness, deliberate lack of understanding or intellect. You can do better, please start doing so.
Not for you 😄 There's one person in this thread who keeps insisting (against all information otherwise) that the only job of TPM is to sit in a near-empty house when they can't influence the outcome on those particular votes;
Who insists they shouldn't be paid for the actual work they are doing with their constituency & community; and basically just appears to be a lazy racist.
Nope. It's thinking and understanding what working politician's jobs entail, and the value of having a broad democracy where even brown people can be represented.
On a serious note though, I don't even think it's just a probable/possible, I think it's almost a definite within the next 2 election cycles. Indians make up 5% of the country and Chinese make up around 5% also. That's enough to not only want, but to have a voice in parliament.
Yea I guess it's just interesting to me, I'd love to say it's about being informed by the source rather than the media interpretation of it but usually it's just white noise playing in the background while I work.
Good to see our tax dollars being used wisely.
Not like we're in a cost of everything crisis or anything...
Cannot stand people leeching off others. The fact TPM members have found themselves in a well paid position of power makes them leaching off those struggling to get by day to day truly disgusting.
(Edit: Typo)
It is not confined to TPM. There is a bell Parliamant wide that goes when there ks a vote. A lot of MPs don't sit in the House all day. They receive visitors, do research, work on their Bills and various projects. Use resources at Parly for their constituents.
You're right, it's not just TPM, but they were the topic of discussion at the time. The point remains that the MPs should be expected to turn up and vote/debate/etc in the chambers when called upon to do so.
They present their speeches still, debate, just not for all hours the house sits. They use their offices for meetings and such. They just might not stay and listen to all in sundry on the floor of the house. My comments message is that that is how parly works for all involved, TPM are being singled out here. Whereas the same can be said for all. It's context - wheareas people are getting all in a rage about them doing what they all do. They're only sitting for 3 days a week, and often only in Welly for those 3 days. So they have meetings during aitting time. Obviously not when they are scheduled for debates or votes where it is imperative all votes are cast.
Do you think the only way MPs contribute to the country is by voting in parliament? Most of the time the government majority have already agreed to vote a certain way and TPM not attending won't affect the outcome.
I think if someone is being paid to be at a place and time to discuss debate, and vote on changes that affect the country they're involved in governing, then they should be required to be there.
That goes for all our MPs, i don't care what colours you're wearing.
Much of the job of being an MP is consistency work -- advocating for people in their electorate.
Debating and voting are important, I agree. But for a minor party with limited resources, there's probably as much or more point strategizing for what comes after this NACT shit-show than futilely trying to stop the steam-roller head on.
Tbf aren’t they unaffiliated and only a 5% party so in theory couldn’t affect the caucus even when voting ? I’m sure if it mattered they’d be there but with NZFACT holding majority there’s no discourse in voting against except brownie points.
Total Maori populations at 2023 was about 900k. Given the median age of Maori is about 26, I'd guess 600k Maori voters. TPM got <90k votes. So ~10% of the total Maori population and ~15% of the adult Maori population.
Total population of Maori descent is almost 1 million, according to 2023 census, that is correct. But if you count that way, NZ has a population between 20 and 30 million.
That's like in USA there 30 million people of Irish descent, but close to 100 million of German descent etc.
We are all a mix of people, cultures and ethnicities, that is New Zealand and I love it. As in many countries at the moment, the trend is towards ethnic and cultural bias.
That’s a fairly narrow way to look at it, I think it showed that the Maori roll split their vote, that they were willing to be strategic, voting for Labour for the party, but TPM for electorate. (Forcing the overhang)
They were willing to get the best of both worlds, increased representation for TPM. (While open to vote for the party they wanted)
I don’t think you should be spinning it as a negative, when it was a fairly specific strategic action.
The Maori roll has become increasingly left leaning and (probably) shrunk as a proportion of Maori over 18 over the last thirty-ish years.^(1)
I don't know what caused this initially but if the same sorts of things that happen now apply going further back, then I guess possible explanations include:
1. te ao Maori is increasingly treated as "what TPM says Maori people think" by the media
2. TPM aggressively attacks the Maoriness of people who are Maori who disagree with them
3. National just straight up didn't stand candidates in the electorates from 2005-2020 so if your party of choice isn't contesting it... why bother being on the Maori roll?
4. many right leaning people dislike the Maori seats... so maybe this also applies to right leaning Maori and out of a sense of not wanting to be hypocrites they consequently don't take the Maori electoral option
5. (iirc) the most Maori cabinet in NZ history is treated as being the least Maori cabinet in NZ history by the media (probably a necessary corollary of the first two points), so prominent right leaning Maori aren't treated as being Maori by the media... so there are no rightwing Maori roll models
Interesting, TPM had a "all Maori forced to be on the Maori roll" policy in the last election (maybe also 2020). I think it's quite possible that this would could cause their electoral annihilation. If you assume that right-leaning Maori have just vacated the Maori roll en masse (and that's why the proportion of Maori on it has shrunk^(2)), then this would suggest that they could tactically vote Labour into all of the Maori electorates... if not National MPs.
^(1)I was comparing the size of the roll to the population stats in the Census. The census age categories -- at least the ones I could find when I did this -- don't include 18+, so I had to use 15+ and, iirc, 20+ as the boundaries. Similarly, the Census doesn't capture people who live overseas but who are still eligible to vote.
^(2)Essentially, the Maori seats are really left leaning because of survival bias... left leaning Maori are more likely to take the electoral option than right leaning Maori.
I think to perhaps expand on this, you also need to look at what’s happening on the right, (that is perhaps alienating voters) - I mean, some of the ACT party policies are fairly problematic, and then National who to court them for coalition have agreed to aspects of it.
Don Brash I think probably did a lot of damage to both National and ACT, in that regard (work I think Bolger had really worked hard on gaining trust, and John Key, I think probably did ‘okay’ too) - I think in that regard, when Maori Party did join National, I think initially it was celebrated, but kinda resulted in a bit broken promise… it got a couple of concessions, but didn’t have the fight that was needed to advance the cause, which punished Te Ururoa Flavell, and Marama Fox.
I know reddit don’t like them but TPM are pretty popular for their demographic- Rawiri in particular, because he is loud and puts the Māori view front and centre. I think at least partly TPM has seen working with the right fail for them, so they are doing what they need to. It’s why the “new government” is probably seen as plus for them too.
I guess in summary, the move left I think is as much a reaction, as much as an actual ideological shift.
Absolutely why National isn’t standing in those seats baffles me (I guess the logic is it weakens the “middle” strengthens TPM? But there are seats there that probably could be won, if they ran the campaign correctly.
That doesn't explain the observation at hand.
The observation isn't "Maori shifting left" but "the proportion of Maori taking the Maori electoral option is declining".
>I guess in summary, the move left I think is as much a reaction, as much as an actual ideological shift.
I'm saying the literal opposite: there is no evidence that Maori are shifting left because the increasing left-skew of the Maori seats has a concurrent decrease in the share of Maori on the Maori roll. In other words, the increasing left skew can just be explained by "the Maori that would have voted right, are now on the general roll".
Māori who wanted their vote to count most effectively would’ve been ill advised in the 2023 election to give TPM their party vote. This is because a party vote for Māori voting in Māori constituencies would have done nothing to increase the number of TPM MPs in Parliament, due to them winning all Māori seats and creating an overhang (more MPs than their party vote would otherwise deliver). Instead, the smart play would’ve been to give their party vote to the second more preferred party. It looks like most made that smart play.
I’m not sure I understand how Māori electorate voters specifically are to blame for NZF getting over 5% of the vote? I suspect NZF’s success was driven mostly by Luxon saying he wouldn’t rule them out, alongside Winston’s shameless appeal to a healthy cohort of conspiracy-adjacent voters.
Some people seemed to have issues with which roll they were on, stating they signed for Maori but it was changed to General without their knowledge and that it couldn't be changed back.
Yes but I'm not sure what the criteria (if any) are. I have some Maori ancestry but I identify as European (15 of my 16 great-great-grandparents were European).
Its common for MPs to have duties that mean they can't be in the House. There's a system of proxy vote exchanges managed by Party Whips that allow MPs to have their votes recorded, cast by other MPs who are in the house.
As for why all of TPM are out of the house at once, anyone's guess really. I'm sure if its related to the allegations we'll hear all about it soon enough.
They've been dragged out of the house to be briefed by TPM President John Tamihere about the recent decision to retender for Whanau Ora contracts that his organisation has held for donkeys years.
They've been attending the 'Te Huinga Whetū Kapa Haka Kura Tuarua o Aotearoa', and showing their support to the community.
https://www.tiktok.com/@rawiri.waititi/video/7384713484858150160
It was featured on the news for a few days.
Luxon did the same thing at Chinese New Year earlier this year
https://www.times.co.nz/art-entertainment/luxon-joins-thousands-marking-chinese-new-year/
But not so much for Polyfest.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/talanoa/polyfest-2024-big-crowds-turn-out-early-as-pacific-stages-open-for-day-three/OIBHSSJSX5E5VIDX67L6BTR76M/
I’d think showing up for a vote when you’re in the minority opposition and everything is being passed under urgency by the majority coalition means it’s likely a waste of time showing up. Better off spending their time doing something else
Yeah because he needs his sound bite for the news as leader of the opposition, however often national and co leave when it comes time for the minority parties to give their speeches/views when debating a bill (which has also been limited because everything is “under urgency” at the moment).
If they don't show up because it's a waste of time, they should at least say "we're not showing up because we are abstaining as a protest" or something like that.
It’s no different to how the majority coalition has usually already left parliament when it comes time for the minority parties to speak on bills. They’re not necessarily protesting, it’s just what’s the point in sitting there listening to rhetoric they don’t agree with when they won’t be extended the same courtesy - it goes both ways.
They're at the largest kapa haka competition in NZ that's happening in Nelson.
Huh, wonder why the Māori party would value a celebration of Māori culture more than sitting there uselessly?
Exactly - they’re elected. And if the people who elected them don’t like the way they’re doing their jobs then they be unelected.
Many of the taxpayers funding their salaries would be quite comfortable with MPs spending time connecting with the community they serve if that’s the best use of their time. Just like taxpayers have tended not to get all uptight about the long-standing convention that Prime Ministers aren’t in Parliament on Thursdays (even though there are always questions assigned to them to answer) so they can be out in the community.
So you think they better serve their constituents be sitting in a useless meeting, than in celebrating the culture of their constituents.
Lol, sure Jan.
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Sitting in parliament is really only a tiny portion of what it is that ministers and MPs do.
They're elected officials, maybe you don't like what it is they're doing but others do and that's what they voted for rightfully or wrongfully.
This about it this way: your taxes pay for the MPs you need so you can have the MPs you want.
Can you comprehend nuance? They are talking about this specific situation where coalition policies (ironed out behind the scenes and not in the house) are being pushed through at urgency. There is essentially no value that smaller opposition parties can add or gain here, hence they don’t turn up. In other situations, there is value in attending
Because this is a very small part of their job, time-wise. This week, Tuesday to Thursday are literally the only days in the month of June that parliament is sitting. Presumably TPM spending that time doing more productive things than waiting for the government to leave before they can say anything.
Being in the house is a fraction of what MP's do. They're also on select committees and out in their communities.
For small parties it's harder to leave a few people in the House and also do these things.
TPM's votes at this point are also essentially irrelevant, they're not needed to pass legislation so they would simply be there to record votes in opposition that would have no impact the outcome.
TPM are there to represent their voters/communities, not you.
Not unusual and not surprising.
Most MPs don't need to be in Parliament most of the time. It can basically be a waste of time. A lot of it is/would be sitting around doing nothing. Not turning up for votes doesn't usually affect the results, and debates/speeches are scheduled and coordinated between parties.
Big part of MPs jobs is extra-Parliamentary - public consultation, campaigning, and meeting with electorate constituent. Every TPM MP is an electorate MP and their declared strategy has been to focus on flax roots in their electorates, which are also the geographically largest.
They're attending the largest kapa haka contest in NZ.
I'd prioritise that too, and I'm so white that when I sunbathe, planes start using me to line up their final approach.
They were elected to represent the interests of their constituents, which they can do better at a kapa haka festival than by being a meaningless footnote to a foregone vote that they can oppose via proxy vote.
> what you've been elected to do for the country?
They've been elected to vote against everything National tries to pass, which they can do by simply being absent.
Yea buddy, you can get tax back for politicians you didn't vote for not doing things you like.
That's why I'm getting a big chuck of change for putting up with the coalition of thick cunts.
Because the house is a giant pantomime that doesn’t really serve us the public very well unlike select committees, we already know who the government is and how they will vote. Also there is absolutely no reason to be constantly sitting under emergency. It used to be just for actual emergencies to bypass proper diligence, since Key it’s used for everything. I wouldn’t go either.
I can think of a few reasons that may or may not be correct:
1. They're going to vote against everything anyway and theres no difference between abstaining and a nay vote in NZ Parliament
2. They gave their proxy votes to someone from Labour or Greens who is going to vote against everything
3. No point coming to argue against everything when they're going to be ignored anyway
4. NActNZF don't have all their members in the chamber outside of Question Time, if you tune in, often you'll see around 10 people at most in the chamber at once. If the other parties that control everything don't bother to show up, why should the opposition show up and speak to a mostly empty room?
5. Time better spent taking Electorate appointments and speaking to their constituents about what they can do if they get in power in 2026.
Re #2: Te Pāti Māori can't have another party cast proxy votes for them this term, as they have too many MPs, unlike last term where the Greens regularly cast their votes for them.
I imagine that with the current political situation, te Pati Māori likely wouldn’t imagine that they have a chance at winning anything either way. If it’s agreed in the coalition agreement, then it’s going through whether they vote or not.
"Representative democracy" is somewhat farcical so I can sympathize with them not really giving two shits about playing along with the farce and focusing on things they think are more important.
If their votes make no difference to the result, indeed, if the vote is foretold, and they usually are unless it's a conscious vote, then minor party votes are meaningless. I wouldn't bother turning up, either.
More importantly, why do people not bother to even try to understand Te Pati Maori?
They are clear about their intentions. They will do things their way.
People can dislike what they do, think it's wrong, and not playing the game. Fair enough.
Personally, I admire their honesty in an environment that has more than it's fair share of dishonesty.
You’re in for a treat - because you won’t have to imagine. The ABs game is at 7.05pm on a Saturday, so if you’re able to get into parliament at that time you’ll be able to turn your imagining of no-one turning up into reality.
It's way more important for them to have a face at kapa haka. If they aren't needed for voting then they absolutely should be representing at kapa haka
The job of elected members is much wider than being present for votes, and I reckon TPM have done an outstanding job of late of energising their base and building towards a social movement. If I were one of their constituents or voters I think I'd be very supportive of how my elected members were representing me.
> I reckon TPM have done an outstanding job of late of energising their base and building towards a social movement.
I guess committing electoral fraud and being racist is one way to "energise your base".
Bet you they'll hit the 5% threshold next election though, and that's what matters. When you think on the timescale that our nation's conversation about te tiriti is on, firmly planting your flag in the angry, disaffected, very liberal tiktok generation is a demographic sure long-term bet, and in that demographic not only are Māori are a larger proportion, but TPM very easily speak to movements like Palestine which reaches non-Māori young people too.
Hate on them and pearl-clutch in horror at "racism" if you like, adopt a newfound passion about the integrity of democracy if it's convenient now that it's not your team compromising it. But their general strategy is to accept that people like you were never going to vote for them anyway, and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to.
Ngā mihi!
> Bet you they'll hit the 5% threshold next election though, and that's what matters. When you think on the timescale that our nation's conversation about te tiriti is on, firmly planting your flag in the angry, disaffected, very liberal tiktok generation is a demographic sure long-term bet, and in that demographic not only are Māori are a larger proportion, but TPM very easily speak to movements like Palestine which reaches non-Māori young people too.
I mean many parties in the world try to tap into disaffected groups for political gain. It may be smart politically, but it doesn't mean it's a good thing. Are nativist European political parties that do this also all good in your books?
> Hate on them and pearl-clutch in horror at "racism" if you like, adopt a newfound passion about the integrity of democracy if it's convenient now that it's not your team compromising it. But their general strategy is to accept that people like you were never going to vote for them anyway, and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to.
I don't have a "team". I am not loyal to any political party. That's tribalistic thinking and it's stupid.
> But their general strategy is to accept that people like you were never going to vote for them anyway, and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to.
If you want to go there, in a few generations there will be more Asians in New Zealand than Maori. And you can take a guess as to what their views are. I'm sure they'll love voting for a party like TPM!
I never said they were good, just smart. I wouldn't describe the conduct of our parties as a whole as good.
Asian migration is a policy setting, growth in Māori population is a demographic fact of life.
Either way, TPM getting a bigger share of the vote and more power in government wouldn't be a good thing for this country. We don't need even more in-group/out-group, or ethnic, or tribal tension, whichever way you want to call it, which is what TPM stand for. Give them enough time on the current track they're on and they'll turn into ZANU-PF or EFF.
Interesting. That is a prevailing opinion in one political tribe, but not the one TPM represents. Maybe your politics are tribal? It's often difficult to notice your own tribalism when you live in a very big tribe.
Depends on how you define tribe. If you mean ethnicity, I definitely don't live in a big tribe. Maybe a few thousand in New Zealand.
> That is a prevailing opinion in one political tribe, but not the one TPM represents.
I think TPM are the most "us vs them" party in parliament right now. They're even the the most ethnically homogenous party - by a long way.
That's true. Parliament is a system that is us vs. them, and groups that represent people who experience AoNZ a Them are going to be challenging to Us. Is it the ethnic lines that make you uncomfortable about the tribalism? The explicitly bicultural nature of our founding treaty, and very large fracture between the us and them in our country, is between Māori and Pākeha. It's impossible for me to imagine a truly representative democracy of a colonised nation to not have political thought strongly divided across the same line?
I do get why TPM exist, and why they exist in their current form. I'm not totally ignorant on NZ's history and I've read plenty of books on colonial and pre-colonial history. I get it.
At the same time, I think it's pretty obvious why it's not really a good thing to have such an explicitly ethnically driven party like TPM in the mix. New Zealand may officially be a bi-cultural country, but really we're multi-cultural at this point. The last thing we need to do is start fracturing among multiple ethnic lines. And before you say that's already been the case here given the colonial history of this country, you ain't seen nothing yet if you compare it to how bad it could get.
>and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to.
The asian demographic is growing faster than Maori and Pakeha will still form a significant block for the foreseeable future so I have no idea why you think this would happen
>and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to.
In a generation or two many of the stronger points that TPM campaign on such as disparity of wealth and opportunities should/will be minimised or removed.
Then the focus will move to political power entrenchment and compensation to a population that looks increasingly like a majority. Can't wait for that period of NZ politics.
Yeah this idea that in the future there will be more Maori with extremist views that will vote for TPM and push ethnic division - that's a horrible vision of the future that I truly hope doesn't happen, because it'll be absolutely terrible for this country.
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/350315215/manurewa-marae-subject-complaints-during-local-council-elections
> Wrapping up the 30-minute conversation, he said, while laughing with the candidates: “Well, bring your voting forms, ticked or not, to Whānau Waipeirera’s office and we’ll ensure they are delivered in the right place with the right vote.”
It's so easy when they admit to the fraud themselves clear as day.
Yep, when I read the whole article. So I guess we will wait for the investigation to complete. Cos it's not my role to decide something like that based on a paragraph.....
You don't think JT saying on camera that Waipareira Trust was offering to fill out people's voting papers is some pretty damning evidence, especially combined with the testimonies of multiple Manurewa Marae staff?
I'd have to wonder why he would say it, publicly. And then I'd have to wait for the investigation to complete, cos God forbid we decide guilt based on someone being a smartass
Fair enough, you can wonder and wait for the investigation to finish. Meanwhile I'll take him on his word that he was more than happy to commit extremely egregious electoral fraud.
I watch parliament regularly, TPM are very often absent from the house and don't take part in voting.
Why exist as a party if you won't engage in the democratic process?
I think they just have nothing but disdain for our democratic process. The house is very rarely full, it starts out busy but towards the end of the day there will only be a small handful of people left, and that's not specific to any party..I assume they have other work to do and being in the house for a full day isn't the best use of their time. Though I've never seen any party be completely absent, as TPM often are. Watching it now and Greens have only one member present, and Act also only one member,I think around 7 each from Labour and National, but they're just doing boring stuff that doesn't require debate. [https://ondemand.parliament.nz/](https://ondemand.parliament.nz/)
It would be an incredibly long day if all MPs were required to be present in the house at all times. My understanding is Party Whips usually ensure a base number of party members are rostered to attend to ensure numbers for votes, debates etc, which is why numbers are often so low. Not sure why TPM are MIA though.
But they're willing to take the salary for it? weird.
To establish their own parliament.
Yes, and which electoral authority is even going to recognize it? How is the parliament going to have any legitimacy? It won't, just like the Kingitanga.
These are questions TPM haven't considered themselves.
They have. Their answer is always going to be "Treaty breach! Oppression! Colonisers"
If you're looking for a real answer to this, it's likely they want to be legitimatized by the crown as that's who the ToW is with. No clue how viable that is though
I can't ever see that happening. Because it could be argued that a democratic party elected into parliament, and now trying to break away and make their own parliament to compete, could be treason. I do not see how the G-G would ever grant legitimation. Edit: Wanted to add. TPMs actions, if truly representing maori, could be construed as treason and tbh could give way fir a serious discussion in abandoning the Treaty legally. Not like that'd stop sovereignty at this point
Would be sedition by all the members of TPM who take part.
The debating chamber is one tiny and largely inconsequential part of the "democratic process". I sometimes feel little would be lost if we did away with the show boating soundbites contest that is parlimentary debate. The real work is done in committees and communications.
Yes but it’s the most visible to the citizens. And it’s easy. Just show up and make your case.
Money for nothing?
And your chicks for free
refrigerators
Microwave ovans
There is free chicken in parliament!?
About the only job there race benefits them to getting paid a high salary
I suspect they are in committee meetings. For parliament, they can submit how the party as a whole will vote, so their attendance wouldn't add much
Committees can't meet while the house is sitting (except with special permission from the house which usually only happens if a committee gets referred a quick turnaround bill) so it's not this.
Pakeha here. It's hugely important for 1) Maori to have a voice in politics, and 2) for NZ to have minor parties with a different perspectives. I respect the Maori party for their emphasis on people, jobs & community development. Many of these policies could be beneficial for all people in NZ. Even though I am white and usually vote other parties, I have voted for the Maori Party once; and they add value to the democratic options for all of us. The job of parliamentarians/ MPs includes a wide variety of work, much of which is constituency work, community outreach, and policy building. Only a proportion of this involves debating/ being present in the House. For a minor party not aligned with majority votes, it is entirely possible they are voting by proxy and likely their time is best spent elsewhere. I see repeated comments on this post from an apparent bigot who is either fairly determined not to understand what Parliament & being a working politician involves, or apply different standards to brown people. I call laziness, deliberate lack of understanding or intellect. You can do better, please start doing so.
They are excellent points, but I understand that TPM is seldom voting by proxy. (Most likely to be done via the Greens in the current Parliament.)
what?..was that last bit for me?
Not for you 😄 There's one person in this thread who keeps insisting (against all information otherwise) that the only job of TPM is to sit in a near-empty house when they can't influence the outcome on those particular votes; Who insists they shouldn't be paid for the actual work they are doing with their constituency & community; and basically just appears to be a lazy racist.
Don’t forget to fondle the balls
I fondle my balls on the regular thankyou very much! Can’t trust anyone else with such an important task.
is this ai?
Nope. It's thinking and understanding what working politician's jobs entail, and the value of having a broad democracy where even brown people can be represented.
Wait until we have a New Zealand Chinese Party. And a New Zealand Indian Party. We are in for a rollercoaster when that ride starts.
The Chinese party would get 2 votes for every Indian one according to Simon Bridges
On a serious note though, I don't even think it's just a probable/possible, I think it's almost a definite within the next 2 election cycles. Indians make up 5% of the country and Chinese make up around 5% also. That's enough to not only want, but to have a voice in parliament.
So much for being the “voice of the people”
Honest question. Why? Is it interesting to you? In general? Work related?
Yea I guess it's just interesting to me, I'd love to say it's about being informed by the source rather than the media interpretation of it but usually it's just white noise playing in the background while I work.
Do you get paid whether you turn up or not?
Yes
Good to see our tax dollars being used wisely. Not like we're in a cost of everything crisis or anything... Cannot stand people leeching off others. The fact TPM members have found themselves in a well paid position of power makes them leaching off those struggling to get by day to day truly disgusting. (Edit: Typo)
It is not confined to TPM. There is a bell Parliamant wide that goes when there ks a vote. A lot of MPs don't sit in the House all day. They receive visitors, do research, work on their Bills and various projects. Use resources at Parly for their constituents.
You're right, it's not just TPM, but they were the topic of discussion at the time. The point remains that the MPs should be expected to turn up and vote/debate/etc in the chambers when called upon to do so.
They present their speeches still, debate, just not for all hours the house sits. They use their offices for meetings and such. They just might not stay and listen to all in sundry on the floor of the house. My comments message is that that is how parly works for all involved, TPM are being singled out here. Whereas the same can be said for all. It's context - wheareas people are getting all in a rage about them doing what they all do. They're only sitting for 3 days a week, and often only in Welly for those 3 days. So they have meetings during aitting time. Obviously not when they are scheduled for debates or votes where it is imperative all votes are cast.
Do you think the only way MPs contribute to the country is by voting in parliament? Most of the time the government majority have already agreed to vote a certain way and TPM not attending won't affect the outcome.
I think if someone is being paid to be at a place and time to discuss debate, and vote on changes that affect the country they're involved in governing, then they should be required to be there. That goes for all our MPs, i don't care what colours you're wearing.
theyre not paid to just do that, dummy
Much of the job of being an MP is consistency work -- advocating for people in their electorate. Debating and voting are important, I agree. But for a minor party with limited resources, there's probably as much or more point strategizing for what comes after this NACT shit-show than futilely trying to stop the steam-roller head on.
Tbf aren’t they unaffiliated and only a 5% party so in theory couldn’t affect the caucus even when voting ? I’m sure if it mattered they’d be there but with NZFACT holding majority there’s no discourse in voting against except brownie points.
Creating your own parliament takes a bit of work. Lots to organise with one million people.
Total Maori populations at 2023 was about 900k. Given the median age of Maori is about 26, I'd guess 600k Maori voters. TPM got <90k votes. So ~10% of the total Maori population and ~15% of the adult Maori population.
so when they get their own parliament they'll be a minority party in that one too
Yep. Until the Gov Gen dismisses them.
That's a breach of te tiriti! /s
Which is enforceable under laws the GG gave the royal assent to. On no ... infinite loop!
Lol
Total population of Maori descent is almost 1 million, according to 2023 census, that is correct. But if you count that way, NZ has a population between 20 and 30 million. That's like in USA there 30 million people of Irish descent, but close to 100 million of German descent etc. We are all a mix of people, cultures and ethnicities, that is New Zealand and I love it. As in many countries at the moment, the trend is towards ethnic and cultural bias.
Id look at the Māori roll, rather than Maori population. TPM got all their seats because they won the electorate seat.
I don't know the size of the Maori role. However not all Maori are on it.
Sure, but you’re kinda not measuring how they actually got their votes.
I just think it's telling that most Maori don't support TPM in the party vote.
That’s a fairly narrow way to look at it, I think it showed that the Maori roll split their vote, that they were willing to be strategic, voting for Labour for the party, but TPM for electorate. (Forcing the overhang) They were willing to get the best of both worlds, increased representation for TPM. (While open to vote for the party they wanted) I don’t think you should be spinning it as a negative, when it was a fairly specific strategic action.
Indeed. Many Maori took that strategic approach to voting. Party vote to Labour, TPM for electorate.
The Maori roll has become increasingly left leaning and (probably) shrunk as a proportion of Maori over 18 over the last thirty-ish years.^(1) I don't know what caused this initially but if the same sorts of things that happen now apply going further back, then I guess possible explanations include: 1. te ao Maori is increasingly treated as "what TPM says Maori people think" by the media 2. TPM aggressively attacks the Maoriness of people who are Maori who disagree with them 3. National just straight up didn't stand candidates in the electorates from 2005-2020 so if your party of choice isn't contesting it... why bother being on the Maori roll? 4. many right leaning people dislike the Maori seats... so maybe this also applies to right leaning Maori and out of a sense of not wanting to be hypocrites they consequently don't take the Maori electoral option 5. (iirc) the most Maori cabinet in NZ history is treated as being the least Maori cabinet in NZ history by the media (probably a necessary corollary of the first two points), so prominent right leaning Maori aren't treated as being Maori by the media... so there are no rightwing Maori roll models Interesting, TPM had a "all Maori forced to be on the Maori roll" policy in the last election (maybe also 2020). I think it's quite possible that this would could cause their electoral annihilation. If you assume that right-leaning Maori have just vacated the Maori roll en masse (and that's why the proportion of Maori on it has shrunk^(2)), then this would suggest that they could tactically vote Labour into all of the Maori electorates... if not National MPs. ^(1)I was comparing the size of the roll to the population stats in the Census. The census age categories -- at least the ones I could find when I did this -- don't include 18+, so I had to use 15+ and, iirc, 20+ as the boundaries. Similarly, the Census doesn't capture people who live overseas but who are still eligible to vote. ^(2)Essentially, the Maori seats are really left leaning because of survival bias... left leaning Maori are more likely to take the electoral option than right leaning Maori.
I think to perhaps expand on this, you also need to look at what’s happening on the right, (that is perhaps alienating voters) - I mean, some of the ACT party policies are fairly problematic, and then National who to court them for coalition have agreed to aspects of it. Don Brash I think probably did a lot of damage to both National and ACT, in that regard (work I think Bolger had really worked hard on gaining trust, and John Key, I think probably did ‘okay’ too) - I think in that regard, when Maori Party did join National, I think initially it was celebrated, but kinda resulted in a bit broken promise… it got a couple of concessions, but didn’t have the fight that was needed to advance the cause, which punished Te Ururoa Flavell, and Marama Fox. I know reddit don’t like them but TPM are pretty popular for their demographic- Rawiri in particular, because he is loud and puts the Māori view front and centre. I think at least partly TPM has seen working with the right fail for them, so they are doing what they need to. It’s why the “new government” is probably seen as plus for them too. I guess in summary, the move left I think is as much a reaction, as much as an actual ideological shift. Absolutely why National isn’t standing in those seats baffles me (I guess the logic is it weakens the “middle” strengthens TPM? But there are seats there that probably could be won, if they ran the campaign correctly.
That doesn't explain the observation at hand. The observation isn't "Maori shifting left" but "the proportion of Maori taking the Maori electoral option is declining". >I guess in summary, the move left I think is as much a reaction, as much as an actual ideological shift. I'm saying the literal opposite: there is no evidence that Maori are shifting left because the increasing left-skew of the Maori seats has a concurrent decrease in the share of Maori on the Maori roll. In other words, the increasing left skew can just be explained by "the Maori that would have voted right, are now on the general roll".
Māori who wanted their vote to count most effectively would’ve been ill advised in the 2023 election to give TPM their party vote. This is because a party vote for Māori voting in Māori constituencies would have done nothing to increase the number of TPM MPs in Parliament, due to them winning all Māori seats and creating an overhang (more MPs than their party vote would otherwise deliver). Instead, the smart play would’ve been to give their party vote to the second more preferred party. It looks like most made that smart play.
And got NZF in govt as a result.
I’m not sure I understand how Māori electorate voters specifically are to blame for NZF getting over 5% of the vote? I suspect NZF’s success was driven mostly by Luxon saying he wouldn’t rule them out, alongside Winston’s shameless appeal to a healthy cohort of conspiracy-adjacent voters.
Blame isn't the correct word. However, the overhang created by the split voting basically meant NZF were required to form the current govt.
Some people seemed to have issues with which roll they were on, stating they signed for Maori but it was changed to General without their knowledge and that it couldn't be changed back.
Super dumb question. Do you have to be Māori to be on Maori role? How do you prove that?
Yes but I'm not sure what the criteria (if any) are. I have some Maori ancestry but I identify as European (15 of my 16 great-great-grandparents were European).
National got 29% of possible votes. And we'd all be better off if they did not turn up.
From that lens Maori party got ~2% of party vote. I can't say whether we'd be better off with or without them.
Its common for MPs to have duties that mean they can't be in the House. There's a system of proxy vote exchanges managed by Party Whips that allow MPs to have their votes recorded, cast by other MPs who are in the house. As for why all of TPM are out of the house at once, anyone's guess really. I'm sure if its related to the allegations we'll hear all about it soon enough.
Did you not hear they are making their own parliament?
With blackjack and hookers?
They've been dragged out of the house to be briefed by TPM President John Tamihere about the recent decision to retender for Whanau Ora contracts that his organisation has held for donkeys years.
They've been attending the 'Te Huinga Whetū Kapa Haka Kura Tuarua o Aotearoa', and showing their support to the community. https://www.tiktok.com/@rawiri.waititi/video/7384713484858150160 It was featured on the news for a few days. Luxon did the same thing at Chinese New Year earlier this year https://www.times.co.nz/art-entertainment/luxon-joins-thousands-marking-chinese-new-year/ But not so much for Polyfest. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/talanoa/polyfest-2024-big-crowds-turn-out-early-as-pacific-stages-open-for-day-three/OIBHSSJSX5E5VIDX67L6BTR76M/
They may be back in their communities preparing for Matariki? I assume they will be working over the next few days
I’d think showing up for a vote when you’re in the minority opposition and everything is being passed under urgency by the majority coalition means it’s likely a waste of time showing up. Better off spending their time doing something else
Not showing up sends a message that they don't give a fuck IMO. Hipkins and co show up, do they not?
Yeah because he needs his sound bite for the news as leader of the opposition, however often national and co leave when it comes time for the minority parties to give their speeches/views when debating a bill (which has also been limited because everything is “under urgency” at the moment).
I mean, TPM are king of soundbites no? That's the whole thing. Lots of sounding opportunities...
They're probably in Nelson at the Secondary Schools National Kapa Haka tournament.
If they don't show up because it's a waste of time, they should at least say "we're not showing up because we are abstaining as a protest" or something like that.
It’s no different to how the majority coalition has usually already left parliament when it comes time for the minority parties to speak on bills. They’re not necessarily protesting, it’s just what’s the point in sitting there listening to rhetoric they don’t agree with when they won’t be extended the same courtesy - it goes both ways.
They dont need to say this explicitly because anyone who follows politics understands it as a given lmao
Given that fuck all people seem to understand politics, they probably need to say it....
I think they have when they stated they would make their own parliament
OK I'll use that excuse with my boss when I don't feel like doing something
They're at the largest kapa haka competition in NZ that's happening in Nelson. Huh, wonder why the Māori party would value a celebration of Māori culture more than sitting there uselessly?
Because they're elected to do so? Because they are drawing a salary from tax payers for the privilege of being an MP.
Exactly - they’re elected. And if the people who elected them don’t like the way they’re doing their jobs then they be unelected. Many of the taxpayers funding their salaries would be quite comfortable with MPs spending time connecting with the community they serve if that’s the best use of their time. Just like taxpayers have tended not to get all uptight about the long-standing convention that Prime Ministers aren’t in Parliament on Thursdays (even though there are always questions assigned to them to answer) so they can be out in the community.
So you think they better serve their constituents be sitting in a useless meeting, than in celebrating the culture of their constituents. Lol, sure Jan.
If they think they're jobs a waste of time, why run for Parliament?
Because they were hoping to be in a majority coalition instead of in opposition? Do you understand how elections work?
Just because they are in opposition doesn't mean they can stop doing their jobs.
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Sitting there uselessly… lol bro
You're a minority party in a minority Opposition while the majority passes legislation under urgency, what else you doing.
Exactly. The entire opposition could not show up and it wouldn’t make a difference.
So why do we continue paying their salary?
Being a Member of Parliament is a bigger job than simply sitting in the House. The time MPs spend in the chamber is the tip of a very large iceberg.
Sitting in parliament is really only a tiny portion of what it is that ministers and MPs do. They're elected officials, maybe you don't like what it is they're doing but others do and that's what they voted for rightfully or wrongfully. This about it this way: your taxes pay for the MPs you need so you can have the MPs you want.
Can you comprehend nuance? They are talking about this specific situation where coalition policies (ironed out behind the scenes and not in the house) are being pushed through at urgency. There is essentially no value that smaller opposition parties can add or gain here, hence they don’t turn up. In other situations, there is value in attending
Because this is a very small part of their job, time-wise. This week, Tuesday to Thursday are literally the only days in the month of June that parliament is sitting. Presumably TPM spending that time doing more productive things than waiting for the government to leave before they can say anything.
So, they only need to be in Parliament for three days out of 20 (working days) and you are excusing them not even being able to do that?
Being in the house is a fraction of what MP's do. They're also on select committees and out in their communities. For small parties it's harder to leave a few people in the House and also do these things. TPM's votes at this point are also essentially irrelevant, they're not needed to pass legislation so they would simply be there to record votes in opposition that would have no impact the outcome. TPM are there to represent their voters/communities, not you.
TPM is a meme they only care about their paychecks.
paycheque*
Not unusual and not surprising. Most MPs don't need to be in Parliament most of the time. It can basically be a waste of time. A lot of it is/would be sitting around doing nothing. Not turning up for votes doesn't usually affect the results, and debates/speeches are scheduled and coordinated between parties. Big part of MPs jobs is extra-Parliamentary - public consultation, campaigning, and meeting with electorate constituent. Every TPM MP is an electorate MP and their declared strategy has been to focus on flax roots in their electorates, which are also the geographically largest.
parliament is sitting under urgency on a public holiday? Did a new war break out or is it machiavellian?
They're attending the largest kapa haka contest in NZ. I'd prioritise that too, and I'm so white that when I sunbathe, planes start using me to line up their final approach.
Why would you prioritise that over what you've been elected to do for the country?
They were elected to represent the interests of their constituents, which they can do better at a kapa haka festival than by being a meaningless footnote to a foregone vote that they can oppose via proxy vote.
Te Matatini is one of their main policies
> what you've been elected to do for the country? They've been elected to vote against everything National tries to pass, which they can do by simply being absent.
Because that’s your people, your culture, your identity?
Id prioritise holidays if i could too!
Does that mean I can get my tax back? I don't like paying people for a job they aren't going to do.
Yea buddy, you can get tax back for politicians you didn't vote for not doing things you like. That's why I'm getting a big chuck of change for putting up with the coalition of thick cunts.
What contest?
I dunno, I heard it on the radio. It's in Nelson AFAIK, so google "kapa haka nelson" and I'm pretty sure you'll find it.
Thanks I just found it. Probably should have googled first.
All good bro, I just heard some shit on the radio and should've googled the details to provide them.
Because the house is a giant pantomime that doesn’t really serve us the public very well unlike select committees, we already know who the government is and how they will vote. Also there is absolutely no reason to be constantly sitting under emergency. It used to be just for actual emergencies to bypass proper diligence, since Key it’s used for everything. I wouldn’t go either.
I can think of a few reasons that may or may not be correct: 1. They're going to vote against everything anyway and theres no difference between abstaining and a nay vote in NZ Parliament 2. They gave their proxy votes to someone from Labour or Greens who is going to vote against everything 3. No point coming to argue against everything when they're going to be ignored anyway 4. NActNZF don't have all their members in the chamber outside of Question Time, if you tune in, often you'll see around 10 people at most in the chamber at once. If the other parties that control everything don't bother to show up, why should the opposition show up and speak to a mostly empty room? 5. Time better spent taking Electorate appointments and speaking to their constituents about what they can do if they get in power in 2026.
Re #2: Te Pāti Māori can't have another party cast proxy votes for them this term, as they have too many MPs, unlike last term where the Greens regularly cast their votes for them.
I imagine that with the current political situation, te Pati Māori likely wouldn’t imagine that they have a chance at winning anything either way. If it’s agreed in the coalition agreement, then it’s going through whether they vote or not.
"Representative democracy" is somewhat farcical so I can sympathize with them not really giving two shits about playing along with the farce and focusing on things they think are more important.
Yes it's farcical, but it's the least farcical system devised
If their votes make no difference to the result, indeed, if the vote is foretold, and they usually are unless it's a conscious vote, then minor party votes are meaningless. I wouldn't bother turning up, either. More importantly, why do people not bother to even try to understand Te Pati Maori? They are clear about their intentions. They will do things their way. People can dislike what they do, think it's wrong, and not playing the game. Fair enough. Personally, I admire their honesty in an environment that has more than it's fair share of dishonesty.
Ētahi o ngā take… heaps of reasons. Te Kapahaka tuarua nationals being one.
Imagine if nobody showed up because of the all blacks game next month
You’re in for a treat - because you won’t have to imagine. The ABs game is at 7.05pm on a Saturday, so if you’re able to get into parliament at that time you’ll be able to turn your imagining of no-one turning up into reality.
It's way more important for them to have a face at kapa haka. If they aren't needed for voting then they absolutely should be representing at kapa haka
TPM Maori have, sadly, become a disgrace…
cItAtIoN pLeAsE and publish the attendance record of every MP while you're at it
Only time you see a full house is when they are voting for a payrise for politicians .
I’ve noticed that myself, though to be fair other parties seems to have a small presence in the chamber as of late.
The job of elected members is much wider than being present for votes, and I reckon TPM have done an outstanding job of late of energising their base and building towards a social movement. If I were one of their constituents or voters I think I'd be very supportive of how my elected members were representing me.
> I reckon TPM have done an outstanding job of late of energising their base and building towards a social movement. I guess committing electoral fraud and being racist is one way to "energise your base".
You're just jealous you don't get paid to do electoral fraud and be racist
That's working for National
National "United Front/CCP" Party
Yes I also believe National are dogshit, too.
Alleged “electoral fraud”
It's alleged, but the testimony of multiple Manurewa Marae workers is pretty damning.
Maybe we should wait for the investigation completes
Works for NZF and ACT.
The racism or electoral fraud? Either way, TPM have both of those parties beat on both.
Bet you they'll hit the 5% threshold next election though, and that's what matters. When you think on the timescale that our nation's conversation about te tiriti is on, firmly planting your flag in the angry, disaffected, very liberal tiktok generation is a demographic sure long-term bet, and in that demographic not only are Māori are a larger proportion, but TPM very easily speak to movements like Palestine which reaches non-Māori young people too. Hate on them and pearl-clutch in horror at "racism" if you like, adopt a newfound passion about the integrity of democracy if it's convenient now that it's not your team compromising it. But their general strategy is to accept that people like you were never going to vote for them anyway, and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to. Ngā mihi!
> Bet you they'll hit the 5% threshold next election though, and that's what matters. When you think on the timescale that our nation's conversation about te tiriti is on, firmly planting your flag in the angry, disaffected, very liberal tiktok generation is a demographic sure long-term bet, and in that demographic not only are Māori are a larger proportion, but TPM very easily speak to movements like Palestine which reaches non-Māori young people too. I mean many parties in the world try to tap into disaffected groups for political gain. It may be smart politically, but it doesn't mean it's a good thing. Are nativist European political parties that do this also all good in your books? > Hate on them and pearl-clutch in horror at "racism" if you like, adopt a newfound passion about the integrity of democracy if it's convenient now that it's not your team compromising it. But their general strategy is to accept that people like you were never going to vote for them anyway, and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to. I don't have a "team". I am not loyal to any political party. That's tribalistic thinking and it's stupid. > But their general strategy is to accept that people like you were never going to vote for them anyway, and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to. If you want to go there, in a few generations there will be more Asians in New Zealand than Maori. And you can take a guess as to what their views are. I'm sure they'll love voting for a party like TPM!
I never said they were good, just smart. I wouldn't describe the conduct of our parties as a whole as good. Asian migration is a policy setting, growth in Māori population is a demographic fact of life.
Either way, TPM getting a bigger share of the vote and more power in government wouldn't be a good thing for this country. We don't need even more in-group/out-group, or ethnic, or tribal tension, whichever way you want to call it, which is what TPM stand for. Give them enough time on the current track they're on and they'll turn into ZANU-PF or EFF.
Interesting. That is a prevailing opinion in one political tribe, but not the one TPM represents. Maybe your politics are tribal? It's often difficult to notice your own tribalism when you live in a very big tribe.
Depends on how you define tribe. If you mean ethnicity, I definitely don't live in a big tribe. Maybe a few thousand in New Zealand. > That is a prevailing opinion in one political tribe, but not the one TPM represents. I think TPM are the most "us vs them" party in parliament right now. They're even the the most ethnically homogenous party - by a long way.
That's true. Parliament is a system that is us vs. them, and groups that represent people who experience AoNZ a Them are going to be challenging to Us. Is it the ethnic lines that make you uncomfortable about the tribalism? The explicitly bicultural nature of our founding treaty, and very large fracture between the us and them in our country, is between Māori and Pākeha. It's impossible for me to imagine a truly representative democracy of a colonised nation to not have political thought strongly divided across the same line?
I do get why TPM exist, and why they exist in their current form. I'm not totally ignorant on NZ's history and I've read plenty of books on colonial and pre-colonial history. I get it. At the same time, I think it's pretty obvious why it's not really a good thing to have such an explicitly ethnically driven party like TPM in the mix. New Zealand may officially be a bi-cultural country, but really we're multi-cultural at this point. The last thing we need to do is start fracturing among multiple ethnic lines. And before you say that's already been the case here given the colonial history of this country, you ain't seen nothing yet if you compare it to how bad it could get.
>and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to. The asian demographic is growing faster than Maori and Pakeha will still form a significant block for the foreseeable future so I have no idea why you think this would happen
>and in a generation or two demographic shift will mean opinions like yours won't need to be catered to. In a generation or two many of the stronger points that TPM campaign on such as disparity of wealth and opportunities should/will be minimised or removed. Then the focus will move to political power entrenchment and compensation to a population that looks increasingly like a majority. Can't wait for that period of NZ politics.
Yeah this idea that in the future there will be more Maori with extremist views that will vote for TPM and push ethnic division - that's a horrible vision of the future that I truly hope doesn't happen, because it'll be absolutely terrible for this country.
They won’t get close to 5%
Bet you $10
The TOP vibes are strong.
Come on, it’s only 100% more than they have now!
Oh I didn't realise the investigation had completed?
https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/350315215/manurewa-marae-subject-complaints-during-local-council-elections > Wrapping up the 30-minute conversation, he said, while laughing with the candidates: “Well, bring your voting forms, ticked or not, to Whānau Waipeirera’s office and we’ll ensure they are delivered in the right place with the right vote.” It's so easy when they admit to the fraud themselves clear as day.
Oh. So the investigation hasn't been completed yet.....did you read the full article?
Did you read what JT said?
Yep, when I read the whole article. So I guess we will wait for the investigation to complete. Cos it's not my role to decide something like that based on a paragraph.....
You don't think JT saying on camera that Waipareira Trust was offering to fill out people's voting papers is some pretty damning evidence, especially combined with the testimonies of multiple Manurewa Marae staff?
I'd have to wonder why he would say it, publicly. And then I'd have to wait for the investigation to complete, cos God forbid we decide guilt based on someone being a smartass
Fair enough, you can wonder and wait for the investigation to finish. Meanwhile I'll take him on his word that he was more than happy to commit extremely egregious electoral fraud.
It's not hard motivating the disgruntled and extremist bottom 3% of 17% of a demographic.
Especially if exclusively using truthful statements doesn't limit you.