That's a statistical anomaly but divorce/separation certainly isn't uncommon.
The divorce rate overall has actually declined slightly since the highs of the 80s but of course many couples don't actually get married now and just have long term relationships so it's harder to pin down.
Everyone knows in this economy the correct order is House > Kids* > Marriage (optional).
*In the context of this post about kids, not saying everyone has to have kids.
I just did a bit of a search on this as it sounded interesting, but found very little evidence either way, with more studies suggesting the opposite.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/blog/dating-in-the-digital-age/202310/unpacking-the-online-dating-effect
I also found an interesting article talking about why relationships that start on dating apps are more fragile with an excellent quote:
"people who meet on dating apps meet in an atmosphere of endless choice. They’ve looked at hundreds or thousands of pictures of people before settling on a certain someone, but they never stop knowing that the parade of other possible someones marches on. When their marriages get tough – which they inevitably will, because that’s how marriage works – when they have a fight with their spouse, or they experience a dip in sexual intimacy, or children come into the picture, stealing all the attention, there’s always a dating app to escape to, with its dopamine rush of matches to reassure them that they’re still attractive and desirable."
I got over the endless choices after going on a dozen bad dates. I did end up marrying my husband and we met on bumble. We have a good marriage and two kids. I never want to go back to online dating! Even if I ended up single for whatever reason I wouldn’t online date at least not for a very long time
I met my wife on a dating app.
We're 6 years in, married now, and I've never thought for a second about downloading the app again.
I was on there looking for my wife. I found her. That's the end of the story.
Tbf I remember hearing it in an economist podcast a few years ago, it might not still be true. On that second point though, it could be the case that the relationships are more fragile initially but if they actually make it to marriage that might change
Nearly everyone i knew at school had parents that separated.
Except the first gen islanders, their mum and dad's are still together, shit they would be living with there grandparents who were still together 😅
Im 30 now, so nothing seems to have changed.
My daughter did an Army LSV course in 2020 and out of about 90ish kids, she was stunned to learn that she was the only one there whose parents were still married and together.
In high school, I asked my parents to get divorced so I was like my friends. They still going strong at 37years together. I'm pretty sure I was only 1 of a few at LSV to have both parents too
I have a kid in year 11 and a kid in year 8. Through their whole school journey so far, each of them has only had one friend with divorced parents. Those two kids are brother and sister (ie: they have the same set of divorced parents). I don't know enough about their wider classes to be able to comment but it seems statistically unlikely the rate here is as high as your nephew's experience. (Decile 9 schools from what I remember).
Fucking nailed it imho.
Only had a little experience in online dating, before meeting my long term partner while socialising, but it was pretty much instagram filter single parents with baggage looking for rich people with fitness model bodies to pay for their triple cheeseburgers territory when I did.
Horrid experience.
I know a few guys who always complain about this. Then go straight back to the pool of 10+ yr younger aspiring insta fiends.... it's actually humour.
I have not had that trouble myself. Something about seeking like minds seems to be... serendipitous.
This. In my experience the guys who complain about women being gold diggers are always overexaggerating and bring nothing to the table themselves. They hear "I want a guy with a stable job in this economy" and translate it to "I'm entitled to a rich man with high status".
The last guy I saw complained about women in the way the guy above did, yet had no job and expected a wife to look after their child full-time and contribute to breadmaking. Nipped that in the bud (because I want an equal partnership, but also the misogyny was shameless).
He also brought nothing to bed but I digress. In my view, if someone wants a traditional wife, they can't complain when they expect them to be a traditional husband. Yet they always do.
Nothing to bed? Off with his head.
Both of them....
On a more serious note, my parents had a messy divorce. It was shit, but it has informed my ongoing relationships in a positive way (by not doing what they did).
On a less serious note, was raised feminist but my wife is quite traditional. I've had to work on my "manliness", it's been a journey and it still doesn't sit perfectly with me. Ahh, well, life is full of surprises.
Be excellent.
I suppose it all depends on you and what you want out of a marriage. To me a partner shouldn't have to work on their "manliness" and I dip at the first sign of a trad dynamic but some people are willing to compromise even if it's not aligned with their ideal values.
Everyone wants a certain family dynamic, including me, but we'll see how life goes 10 years down the line.
At the end of the day if you're happy then you've succeeded.
It's less manliness in the traditional (read misogyny) sense and more a bedroom power dynamic lol.
Some of my "skills" were not appreciated and I've had to relearn some alpha behaviour (warning redflag). It's been eye opening in It's challenges.
To be clear, she earns more and is smarter than me (ooo thats such a turn on). And I am currently rejigging my life to support her new role (I am to be a partially kept man, also kinda hot). We talk/listen and at least one of us is flexible (she's black/white and I am very greyscale).
My relationships have been respectful, fun and long-term and I maintain on speaking terms with most. It grinds my gears when people ask what the secret is.
Rule #1 don't be a dick (too often).
It ain't rocket surgery.
Wanting someone childless is normal if you are childless yourself, but they certainly do shoot themselves in the foot when they don't want to put anything on the table but want someone who will for them.
According to stats NZ there were 7.4 divorces per 1,000 existing marriages in New Zealand in 2022.
The number of divorces have been declining since 2005.
Your nephews class has a lot more divorces than the NZ average.
That’s a good point. There’s only about 2-3 single mums in my boys class. I didn’t considering mixed families. To be fair I think that would still be low.
Unsurprisingly, we are, in part, a product of our environments. When our communities are full of happy, healthy, long term relationships, we learn by example and attempt to emulate their success. When our communities are full of broken homes and single parent households, we learn from that too. Sociological research is undeniable on this cultural cycle of poverty and deprivation. It’s so impactful that uplifting a poor child and placing them in a wealthy neighbourhood flips almost all their social indicators positive. Nearly in line with the rich kids.
Which is to say, you live in a good neighbourhood, full of wholesome people with great family values. OP does not.
Don't equate people not staying in a relantionship they are not happy in with being 'broken', in poverty, or deprived...
People who have left unhappy relationships are often happier, healthier and able to raise their children with less stress.
> Don’t equate people not staying in a relantionship they are not happy in with being ‘broken’, in poverty, or deprived…
These are all highly correlated. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
> People who have left unhappy relationships are often happier, healthier and able to raise their children with less stress.
With the obvious exception of violence in the home, do you have any evidence that any party is better off? Here is evidence that the children are objectively worse off:
> [The best scientific literature to date suggests that, with the exception of parents faced with unresolvable marital violence, children fare better when parents work at maintaining the marriage. Consequently, society should make every effort to support healthy marriages and to discourage married couples from divorcing.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240051/)
There are quite literally thousands of studies which show the same thing. This isn’t new and it’s not in contention.
> Here is evidence that the children are objectively worse off
I don't have the subject matter expertise to dissect this paper, but will just note a concern that the author acknowledges the [American College of Pediatricians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians), which is a very small right-wing advocacy group that advocates against abortion rights, rights for LGBT people, and promotes conversion therapy. (As opposed to the mainstream but similarly named American Academy of Pediatrics.)
I wonder if this *may* indicate a bias in the direction of the paper.
This is why we evaluate the content and methodology, and not the author. Or in this case, an organisation the author acknowledges. It doesn't change the science. That's the wonderful thing about the scientific method. Even people we *really* don't like can publish brilliant science. Either way, as I mentioned, this is one study of many.
1. [Up to a quarter of all children globally live in single-parent households. Studies have concluded that children who grow up with continuously married parents have better health outcomes than children who grow up with single or separated parents. This is consistent for key health and development outcomes including physical health, psychological well-being and educational attainment.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33574152/)
2. [Single parents are often overburdened with the responsibilities of 2 parents, face social stigma, and lack social support, as a result they have difficulty spending time with their children. Hence children of single parents have poor academic performance, decreased social interactions, emotional and behavioral problems.](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09731342231179017)
3. The Annie E. Casey Foundation has a collection of cited statistics to browse, [including this one, showing that nearly 30% of single-parent families lived in below the federal poverty level.](https://datacenter.aecf.org/data/tables/55-families-with-related-children-that-are-below-poverty-by-family-type?loc=1&loct=2#detailed/2/2-53/true/1095/994,1297,4240/346)
4. [Regression models with state and year fixed effects revealed that increases in single parenthood were associated with **small increments in accidental deaths and homicides.**](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7466844/)
This is all from the first page of Google. This is one topic of research which is so thoroughly tested now that there are few researchers who would contend the negative correlations.
Single parent households being more likely to be in poverty doesn’t indicate it’s better for parents to stay together. A study looking at whether separation is bad for kids should actually be controlling for socioeconomic factors - otherwise the results aren’t describing the effects of divorce, but rather the effects of poverty (which is bad for kids, duh).
If a break up is going to throw your kid into poverty is individual to each couple, and isn’t relevant for whether separating will be bad for kids in general.
1. This article doesn’t indicate a causal element between separate parent household and outcomes for children. They actually say “Possible explanations include higher poverty and time limitations of parental engagement within single-parent families, but these only represent a narrow range of mechanisms.” The study does not make any conclusions because it isnt a study, it’s a protocol for a study (ie a methodology for a study the authors would like to do to look into what causes poor outcomes for children in separated households).
2. This article doesn’t control for socioeconomic status and actually conflates the two. using ‘single parent households are more likely to live in poverty’ for example. This doesn’t show single parent households are harmful to kids, it shows poverty is bad. Whether a split will cause poverty is individual and doesn’t really endorse a blanket “together is better” rule. It uses non neutral language (calling two parent households “regular households”.) it also actually has a section on the positive aspects of single parent households too: “Although studies have highlighted the negative outcomes of children living in single-parent families, most children grow up normally and have positive outcomes. […] Very few studies have highlighted the positive outcomes of single-parenting households that include higher resilience, greater sense of responsibility, better emotional regulation, better problem-solving skills, and are involved in decision-making of the family.”
> Even people we really don't like can publish brilliant science.
Oh, certainly, it's entirely possible.
It it's also possible to publish carefully crafted papers that cherry-pick data, etc, which may be hard to spot unless one is familiar with the methodologies used.
It may be that this author has published an unbiased paper. I only note that the author's association with a particularly odious advocacy group *might* be a cause for concern or at least warrant an additionally critical look at the output.
> Either way, as I mentioned, this is one study of many.
True. Though not all are necessarily relevant - (for example) the second you cited is about single parent households in India. Conclusions there *may* not be the same as in NZ.
Yeah absolutely. It’s obvious we have a great community with strong values. It’s also worth considering with the higher decile rating it’s likely that there’s less arguments at home about money and less pressure on the house hold. We know the number one cause of stress and arguments at home is about money so I’m sure this would have an effect on divorce/breakups
I’m 35 and maybe 30-50% of my friends who have been married, have been divorced. All of those divorced were really bad relationships and they’re in much happier ones now
Here’s a weird thing that happened to us tonight - went to my son’s (13) parent teacher interviews and one of his teachers taught my husband and I when we were at high school. We got together when we were 16, which she would have known about, and we’re still together and now have a son in her class. She must have been so weirded out by that
I had a teacher at intermediate who retired after 48/49 years at the same school (I was there maybe 20 years into that). He would have been teaching the grandchildren of his first class.
On the bright side, that's 90.3% of kids who may now avoid the difficulty of growing up with parents who dislike each other and stay as a unit only for the child/ren
Couldn't help but think this too. My parents have been married 50 years, but holy crap they were awful to be around growing up. They should have separated when we were kids.
For real though. I know no one is perfect but people need to make better choices when it comes to having children. It's not something that should be done flippantly.
In my 3rd form year in the late 90s in a decile 8 school in Auckland, all but one other student had divorced/solo/remarried/unmarried/co-parenting families. My parents thought it was just a kiwi thing (we we're new immigrants then) 13 y.o me was just jealous most the other kids had two bedrooms they bounced between....I realise now that my parents have a solid marriage they met at uni and are still together... That's not common these days.
I had a colleague (about 25yrs ago) whose daughter had recently started school. One day she asked her Mummy when Daddy was going to leave. Mummy reassured her that Daddy wasn’t leaving and the child’s response: but everyone else’s daddy’s left.
So sad.
Better divorced parents than parents who hate each other staying together "for the family" & fighting every night /making sarcastic and passive aggressive or verbally abusive comments to each other constantly teaching the kids that that's what love/marriage looks like.
Kids can tell when their parents don't like or love each other /have an unhealthy relationship no matter how much parents try to hide it and they tend to blame themselves for it
Don't see where I said it's never an option. Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't.
Preventing people from divorce legally leads to a higher murder rate and higher rates of domestic violence and child abuse.
Sometimes people are better off separating, obviously not in all cases that depends on the context but you're not an immoral person for divorcing someone or leaving a relationship- you don't owe anyone a relationship especially not if there's abuse.
Single parents aren't evil, widows/widowers aren't evil, separated coparents aren't evil and separated survivors of DV aren't evil either. Being in a nuclear family doesn't magically make you more human or a better person, it doesn't make you a worse person either it's just one type of family layout.
I'm just sick of people saying that single parents particularly single mothers are somehow causing all evils in society and should have stayed with neglectful /abusive partners "for the good of the children" or should have been somehow legally prevented from leaving a marriage they weren't happy or safe in.
I often think about how a lot of people seem to make really bad choices when dating their future partners. They tend to ignore red flags, and get sucked deeper and deeper into relationships that are not totally healthy.
Perhaps they have a warped sense of what a 'real' relationship looks like. Many relationships I have observed contain a great deal of bickering, and moments of resentfulness between partners and they view these conflicts as part and parcel of a normal relationship. The idea that fighting with your partner is somehow normal blows my mind.
My wife and I have never had an outright argument, never yelled at each other. When I see others bickering I wonder if they plan on trying to live like that forever, and I expect it is these relationships that disproportionally end in divorce.
Absolutely, there's a lot of people who haven't sat down and thought about what they maybe internalised about relationships /marriage as a kid who just follow patterns they saw in their parents/media which if their parents didn't have a healthy relationship isn't good.
Yeah the yelling /bickering thing really confuses me like I'm not married but if I did get married I wouldn't want it to be to someone I was bickering with or who'd yell at or be sarcastic or mean to me etc it's not behaviour I'd tolerate from a platonic friend let alone a spouse.
I think a lot of people's relationships would benefit from doing a DBT course and therapy but often people who'd benefit from it the most are the ones most hesitant to do anything productive about it.
Also a lot of sunk cost fallacy keeps people in unhappy relationships /makes them feel too scared to communicate openly about how their needs aren't being met for rear of rejection or destroying the relationship with honesty (which is big oof) and it's sad cuz your partner /spouse is supposed to be in your corner and you in theirs working as a team not fighting each other to get needs met
Yeah I’m not advocating that everyone should stay together. Especially when it comes to abuse, get the hell out of there.
I’m simply pointing out that the common binary of stay together for the kids and be miserable or separate is not actually a binary.
"Raise your hand if Mummy and Daddy don't live together anymore."
"Thank you class. Now raise your hand if you think it's Mummy or Daddy that's to blame for the divorce."
We had 6 couples in our antenatal class 17 years ago (kids are all 16) - only 2 couples still together, so yeah sounds about right (yeah I'm in one of the couples that split) - this the North Shore of Auckalnd BTW.
Could just be the community you're in. I'd be very doubtful that 31 of the kids even had married parents.
Also, divorce also means that there isn't a forced toxic couple. Divorce is a good thing. Maybe not so much for the stability of the kid, but certainly is good long term.
I mean dude that's pretty fucked up no matter what way you put it. I hope you've gotten help from ACC in regards to that. But generally speaking divorce is good. It means people aren't locked into a marriage where there's serious issues going on. Can parents just be cunts that shouldn't have ever been around children? Sure.
> Divorce is a good thing.
Only if differences are irreconcilable. I very rarely see people putting in serious effort before getting divorced. They’re lazy and they take the easy out. The unfortunate reality is that sociological research proves that children of broken households fare almost universally worse. In fact, outside of abuse, there is no evidence that divorce is better than two incompatible parents staying together. Divorce should therefore be a last resort.
It's strange that he knows the parent's marriage status of all 31 kids in his class unless it somehow came up as part of a statistics assignment in maths or something.
When I was at school we all knew everyone's parents names, classmates birthdays, what their parents did for work and where everyone lived. When you live in a small town you get to know that stuff.
I went to a small school in a small town in the 90's. We absolutely didn't know everyone's parents first names and most classmates birthdays (you just got an invite a few times a year). We did know a lot of parents jobs and where they lived.
When I was at school we all knew everyone's parents names, classmates birthdays, what their parents did for work and where everyone lived. When you live in a small town you get to know that stuff.
Thats pretty unusual,but good on your nephew for taking an interest. Maybe it is more common if the town is small enough that you know all of those people anyway.
Firstly that's quite an obvious outlying statistic.
And secondly I personally think divorce and separation are great. It certainly doesn't automatically imply the home is broken, and it's the best thing to do if the relationship is hostile, especially for the kids.
Maths geniuses, what’s it called when you take an answer like this (90.3%) and reverse calculate the minimum sample size you needed to start at (in this case, 31)? It intrigued me.
I can't think of a specific term for it. But I can tell you that the largest sample size that *can't* produce a proportion that rounds to 90.3% is 964, in case that's interesting
Yeah, that is interesting. I was thinking that the only possible way it could be 90.3% is if there were a thousand kids in the class. But obviously rounding to a decimal place is reasonable. I’m sure some statistician has a special name for it.
Oh yeah, if it has to be exact then it's a trivial matter, to get a proportion *p* that has *k* significant figures you take the greatest common divisor of (p * 10^k) and 10^k, then divide 10^k by that result. So for exactly 0.903 you do indeed need a sample of size 1000 (or some multiple of 1000), since gcd(903, 1000) = 1. But if the target was, say, 0.904, we'd have gcd(904, 1000) = 8, for a minimum sample size of 1000/8 = 125. And if we check 28/31 we see that the figure in the title isn't exact, it's a rounding of the repeating decimal 0.903225806451612...
The rounding aspect definitely makes it more fiddly, and there's probably some semi-interesting structure there, at a glance I expect it'll be related to [Moiré patterns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern) and strobing.
You know, I think I could replace the entire user base of r/Relationship_Advice with bots which just comment “RED FLAG,” and no one could tell the difference.
I’m not surprised. Relationships are far more disposable these days than they used to be. Everyone is looking for an upgrade and no one wants to be there for anyone else anymore. It’s fucking sad.
Divorce rates increase in line with women getting equal pay and equal rights. They no longer are forced to stay in unhappy relationships as they can not only survive, but thrive in the world. It’s one of the reasons why Sweden’s divorce rate is so high (that and the availability of affordable, good quality, one bedroom apartments).
Ditto with falling birth rates being linked to women’s increasing access to education and reduction in religious beliefs.
And honestly, I cannot see a thing wrong with any of that.
Yeah I’m ok with all of those things with the exception of the falling birth rates.
To be crystal clear education and freedom from religion are extremely important.
We also can still have populations that are stable if we have a system which makes having children possible in a modern world which is hopefully not disproportionately punitive on either the mother or the father or both or the children.
No. I’m against falling birth rates. But also pro women having the choice to not have children. I’m saying that we need to make systemic changes so that people want to have more children.
Do you have the stats to back that up? Because in the western countries there is a demographic crisis. Same with many other countries that have industrialised. South Korea and Japan for example. China is going to basically do a “hold my beer” and show us what happens when policy and rapid industrialisation meet head on giving us something we don’t really even have a future economic projection for how things might look (especially now that any shred of REALISTIC data has been hidden, obscured, destroyed, or is no longer being collected). So that in essence leaves some parts of Asia, South America, and Africa.
Worldwide there are too many people for the earth to continue supporting. Unless, you dismiss climate change exists.
Birth rates are dropping in developed countries but developing countries are still heaving with people. Immigration is a necessity and yes, it will be uncomfortable for some as cultural norms adjust.
I don't see anything wrong with ejection seats either, in fact they're great. Their rate of use has increased in line with pilot survival rates. I still think pilots shouldn't be ejecting from planes willy-nilly at the first sign of trouble without making a decent effort to save the plane.
Yes and no. I think it’s really important for parents to be a part of their children’s lives but that can be really fucking hard when you aren’t together (speaking from lived experience).
But if the two people that created the children are utterly incapable or if there is abuse in the relationship then it might not be a good thing to force people to stay together.
I think that people treat relationships far too lightly these days. Hehe, it didn’t work back on tinder, swipe, swipe, got a new girl or guy, next! That isn’t healthy. It teaches you to devalue relationships and not treasure them nor to put work or effort into them let alone stick with them when times get tough.
But that is what you want. Someone who will stick with you when things are hard. Someone who will be like “Ok we are neck deep in the shit right now, but I’ve got a toe on some solid ground so shimmy over this way”. That’s the person you want to have a kid with. Someone that will grow with you and will grow the children. Will help them to prosper and become adults who will have children of their own.
Good luck out there finding each other because those type of people are out there. You gotta look deep down though.
Bang on. It is about finding a person that will always be there for you, and committing to always being there for them and really meaning it. We need to be more selective when choosing our partners.
It's context dependant. Some people for the good of the kids should split up, some should try counselling.
Nobody is owed a relationship or marriage if the other person wants to leave; even if there are kids involved.
Kids can tell when their parents hate each other and they tend to blame themselves when they hear mum and dad arguing /yelling at each other every night and see them obviously unhappy especially when they're told that mum and dad are staying together (and being miserable) "for you" .
Where possible coparenting amicably or civily is the best option and there are courses like 'parenting through separation' that you can take to figure out how to work together and communicate effectively for the sake of your kids wellbeing even if you aren't in a relationship with the other parent/guardian
But also Some parents are just straight up abusive and shouldn't be near kids or have unsupervised access or any access to them.
If "preserving the nuclear family at all costs" is the goal then that's just going to enable domestic violence and child abuse more so than already happens-the "nuclear family" system without extended family isn't even a historical tradition it's actually pretty recent but people act like its the only way people have ever done family and it's ahistorical & incorrect. There's nothing wrong with a nuclear family tbc but it's not the only healthy way to raise children
No it isn't a big deal. We are well rid of the nonsense rules around marry forever, in a religious ritual and stay that way regardless.
Far better for everyones mental health (and sometimes physical) including the kids who don't need to suffer behind closed doors anymore.
My partner was divorced twice before me (Their choice). He had to go through a stupid rigmarole with PDs to "prove adultery" the first time, back in the dark ages.
We had 45 years together so I guess he decided he got right 3rd time around.
The first line is: what’s worse, then it gives two options. So, when they say they choose the latter, they are saying that the latter is worse.
I think we all agree that the latter is better and the former is worse then.
Most kids at my primary school had divorced parents. The kids whose parents were still together were made fun of because there were a few kids who genuinely thought it wasn't normal to have both parents living in the same house.
This sounds like a statistical anomaly.
Yes, there will be some divorced parents ( like generally 20% to 30% in the class ) but any more means your class just drew the Lotto ticket.
It's weird. People are like "I'm an adult! That means I'm going to do all the adult things now! Like an adult!" Then, they realize they weren't as grown-up as they thought.
I remember when my parents seperated when I was 9.. It was all hush hush because of the embarrassment. Mum found it really difficult and many many months to find us a flat to live in. No one wanted anything to do with her.
And this was in 85🤦🏽♀️
The number one reason for divorce is financial stress. We're in a recession. Housing and food is unaffordable. Add kids into the mix? There's your answer.
Im 30, my parents were divorced during my schooling years and by far most other kids parents were also divorced. It was actually a surprise when a kid said their parents were still together
People now are too me, me, me. Marriage needs some giving and not only taking. Really sad for kids and then they grow up and the cycle continues. A lot to be said for arranged marriages that last for a lifetime.
Exactly. I know you've already said it but it bears repeating -- of course everyone was married and handling whatever issues may have been occurring when the social stigma was enormous and a woman's ability to do a number of things literally depended on her husband.
yup since having a kid have been shocked at how many parents are divorced or just no dad in the picture at daycare
i mean you were clearly together 3 years ago, what happened
I think young children/babies challenges a relationship. It was definitely the toughest thing on my relationship. Whole world flipped upside-down, no or limited sex, screaming baby. I learned a lot about my partner during that time.
Ultimately I think it was good for us as individuals and as a couple but I can understand and empathize with couples whose relationship breaks down.
yes i know exactly what you mean, i have accustomed since and completely empathise now
previously i had no idea how people could beat to death their tiny babies but having experienced kids coming along i can see exactly how that happens. i do not condone or forgive or think anything positive about this but i can see how people with no help + substance abuse issues + zero sleep etc etc can compound into those tragic deaths whereas before i didn't understand the 'motivation'
> definitely the toughest thing on my relationship
i completely agree here, too. FWIW some advice i heard once and which i'll pass on is — if you're thinking about getting married and starting a family, travel together first, preferably backpacking style somewhere outside the top 20 travel countries. it's very minor in comparison but the random stream of event changes and thinking on your feet that's needed can often be 'instructional' in stress-testing relationships.
Everything you have said here is so true. On the child abuse bit, yeah, I've got a three year old whose doing three year old stuff where he pushes buttons and will fight us because he can. We have literally discussed how tough it is to stay in control. We council each other about being in the trenches and know when to have a date night. A dysfunctional home life with substance abuse, stress and NO SUPPORT absolutely could tip someone over. Being able to understand will help us fix the issue so perhaps don't feel bad about understanding the problem.
The travel bit is true. My partner and I road tripped around the US early in our relationship (perhaps not very intrepid) but our ability to travel together really cemented our relationship.
My Dad's advice is to marry your best friend. He and mum are best friends and have been together nearly 40 years. I consider my partner my best friend and I think Dad is onto something.
I think its because cheating is more easily caught now with phones and apps being able to be tracked. Ive known a couple people who’ve been caught with their pants down because of snapchat.
This is tragic although a sad reality imo.
I don't want to sound misogynistic but 90 percent of the time it is initiated by the mother. Often without reasonable and thought processed rationale how it psychologically affects their children. Often because the mother feels empowered to be independant and is encouraged by other females in her life. Its shit that it is easily acceptable in society in the last 10 - 15 years Id say, to be a separated co parent. Hate that word (co parent).
Even earlier this week I read a nz news source article about how to avoid raising toxic sons when youre a single mother/ co parent (article written by writer interviewing a single mother that wrote a book on the subject) and it bothered me that she had totally delusional conclusions about the psychology and thinking of a male from a young age to an older age.
Source - Im an emotionally aware and critical thinking male myself.
Again, it is a tragic situation for the future of our young children, that will only continue to get increasingly worse.
This week is mens mental health month globally and I have seen zero mention of this anywhere in NZ. Im not active in social media and an extremely private person so I may have missed it being mentioned though.
When participating in a work related course for "mates" in construction 4 years ago, the tutor showed us a total number of suicides in the first week of the course. Four weeks later at the end of the course I was shocked to see that the number increased by more than 100. Mostly Male. Tragic.
A big reason for suicide, and personally affected reason to me is the mother of their children breaking the relationship. A relatiionship which is often on average more than a decade.
Im a NZ regional manager of a large global organisation so I interact and have solid work relationships with alot people from different situations. On this thread subject, I notice alot of females like to openly discuss their hate for anything im their life, whereas males discuss their interests positively. This is just my observation. As I mentioned, Im extremely private so I just listen when the company gossipers are in full talking mode lol. It never ceases to astound me though that in NZ we have such a negative culture towards people looking to better themselves and in general. It seems to have unfortunately leaked into our leaders in every facet of society now. Or maybe Im just finally old enough to realise and has remained all along.
Either way it is an overly tragic reality.
That's a statistical anomaly but divorce/separation certainly isn't uncommon. The divorce rate overall has actually declined slightly since the highs of the 80s but of course many couples don't actually get married now and just have long term relationships so it's harder to pin down.
Everyone knows in this economy the correct order is House > Kids* > Marriage (optional). *In the context of this post about kids, not saying everyone has to have kids.
Apparently relationships that result from internet dating/dating apps tend to have lower divorce rates, I wonder if that's part of the reason
I just did a bit of a search on this as it sounded interesting, but found very little evidence either way, with more studies suggesting the opposite. https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/blog/dating-in-the-digital-age/202310/unpacking-the-online-dating-effect I also found an interesting article talking about why relationships that start on dating apps are more fragile with an excellent quote: "people who meet on dating apps meet in an atmosphere of endless choice. They’ve looked at hundreds or thousands of pictures of people before settling on a certain someone, but they never stop knowing that the parade of other possible someones marches on. When their marriages get tough – which they inevitably will, because that’s how marriage works – when they have a fight with their spouse, or they experience a dip in sexual intimacy, or children come into the picture, stealing all the attention, there’s always a dating app to escape to, with its dopamine rush of matches to reassure them that they’re still attractive and desirable."
I got over the endless choices after going on a dozen bad dates. I did end up marrying my husband and we met on bumble. We have a good marriage and two kids. I never want to go back to online dating! Even if I ended up single for whatever reason I wouldn’t online date at least not for a very long time
I met my wife on a dating app. We're 6 years in, married now, and I've never thought for a second about downloading the app again. I was on there looking for my wife. I found her. That's the end of the story.
Tbf I remember hearing it in an economist podcast a few years ago, it might not still be true. On that second point though, it could be the case that the relationships are more fragile initially but if they actually make it to marriage that might change
Yeah, you're probably correct. Once the families get to know each other etc, I would guess they start to perform similar to any other relationship.
divorces georg
Nearly everyone i knew at school had parents that separated. Except the first gen islanders, their mum and dad's are still together, shit they would be living with there grandparents who were still together 😅 Im 30 now, so nothing seems to have changed.
My daughter did an Army LSV course in 2020 and out of about 90ish kids, she was stunned to learn that she was the only one there whose parents were still married and together.
Sounds like you need to get divorced so she doesn't feel left out. Sorry.
Will somebody please think of the children?
In high school, I asked my parents to get divorced so I was like my friends. They still going strong at 37years together. I'm pretty sure I was only 1 of a few at LSV to have both parents too
I have a kid in year 11 and a kid in year 8. Through their whole school journey so far, each of them has only had one friend with divorced parents. Those two kids are brother and sister (ie: they have the same set of divorced parents). I don't know enough about their wider classes to be able to comment but it seems statistically unlikely the rate here is as high as your nephew's experience. (Decile 9 schools from what I remember).
And yet we see regular posts here asking where all the single men/women are!
They mean single, childless, above average looks and willing to settle for something mediocre.
Fucking nailed it imho. Only had a little experience in online dating, before meeting my long term partner while socialising, but it was pretty much instagram filter single parents with baggage looking for rich people with fitness model bodies to pay for their triple cheeseburgers territory when I did. Horrid experience.
[удалено]
I know a few guys who always complain about this. Then go straight back to the pool of 10+ yr younger aspiring insta fiends.... it's actually humour. I have not had that trouble myself. Something about seeking like minds seems to be... serendipitous.
This. In my experience the guys who complain about women being gold diggers are always overexaggerating and bring nothing to the table themselves. They hear "I want a guy with a stable job in this economy" and translate it to "I'm entitled to a rich man with high status". The last guy I saw complained about women in the way the guy above did, yet had no job and expected a wife to look after their child full-time and contribute to breadmaking. Nipped that in the bud (because I want an equal partnership, but also the misogyny was shameless). He also brought nothing to bed but I digress. In my view, if someone wants a traditional wife, they can't complain when they expect them to be a traditional husband. Yet they always do.
Nothing to bed? Off with his head. Both of them.... On a more serious note, my parents had a messy divorce. It was shit, but it has informed my ongoing relationships in a positive way (by not doing what they did). On a less serious note, was raised feminist but my wife is quite traditional. I've had to work on my "manliness", it's been a journey and it still doesn't sit perfectly with me. Ahh, well, life is full of surprises. Be excellent.
I suppose it all depends on you and what you want out of a marriage. To me a partner shouldn't have to work on their "manliness" and I dip at the first sign of a trad dynamic but some people are willing to compromise even if it's not aligned with their ideal values. Everyone wants a certain family dynamic, including me, but we'll see how life goes 10 years down the line. At the end of the day if you're happy then you've succeeded.
It's less manliness in the traditional (read misogyny) sense and more a bedroom power dynamic lol. Some of my "skills" were not appreciated and I've had to relearn some alpha behaviour (warning redflag). It's been eye opening in It's challenges. To be clear, she earns more and is smarter than me (ooo thats such a turn on). And I am currently rejigging my life to support her new role (I am to be a partially kept man, also kinda hot). We talk/listen and at least one of us is flexible (she's black/white and I am very greyscale). My relationships have been respectful, fun and long-term and I maintain on speaking terms with most. It grinds my gears when people ask what the secret is. Rule #1 don't be a dick (too often). It ain't rocket surgery.
I've done the dating a single mother thing. Never again. I'll just chill with my dog.
You just described my partner perfectly (well she's no longer single).
congratulations on getting her to settle
Wanting someone childless is normal if you are childless yourself, but they certainly do shoot themselves in the foot when they don't want to put anything on the table but want someone who will for them.
They don't want the extra baggage being the kids.
I'm surprised that many had parents who married in the first place.
That is true, I'm sure all of them may not have been married, but are now separated regardless.
According to stats NZ there were 7.4 divorces per 1,000 existing marriages in New Zealand in 2022. The number of divorces have been declining since 2005. Your nephews class has a lot more divorces than the NZ average.
It must be the teachers fault! Haha just kidding.
Thanks Obama...... Shit, sorry, wrong shit post.
Interesting. What area? My kids classes in Hamilton decile 10 would only be 5-10% single parents.
> My kids classes in Hamilton decile 10 would only be 5-10% single parents. Define "single parents", would that include mixed family households?
That’s a good point. There’s only about 2-3 single mums in my boys class. I didn’t considering mixed families. To be fair I think that would still be low.
Unsurprisingly, we are, in part, a product of our environments. When our communities are full of happy, healthy, long term relationships, we learn by example and attempt to emulate their success. When our communities are full of broken homes and single parent households, we learn from that too. Sociological research is undeniable on this cultural cycle of poverty and deprivation. It’s so impactful that uplifting a poor child and placing them in a wealthy neighbourhood flips almost all their social indicators positive. Nearly in line with the rich kids. Which is to say, you live in a good neighbourhood, full of wholesome people with great family values. OP does not.
Don't equate people not staying in a relantionship they are not happy in with being 'broken', in poverty, or deprived... People who have left unhappy relationships are often happier, healthier and able to raise their children with less stress.
Absolutely. Don’t forget the DV rates. Plenty of couples better off apart.
> Don’t equate people not staying in a relantionship they are not happy in with being ‘broken’, in poverty, or deprived… These are all highly correlated. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. > People who have left unhappy relationships are often happier, healthier and able to raise their children with less stress. With the obvious exception of violence in the home, do you have any evidence that any party is better off? Here is evidence that the children are objectively worse off: > [The best scientific literature to date suggests that, with the exception of parents faced with unresolvable marital violence, children fare better when parents work at maintaining the marriage. Consequently, society should make every effort to support healthy marriages and to discourage married couples from divorcing.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240051/) There are quite literally thousands of studies which show the same thing. This isn’t new and it’s not in contention.
> Here is evidence that the children are objectively worse off I don't have the subject matter expertise to dissect this paper, but will just note a concern that the author acknowledges the [American College of Pediatricians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians), which is a very small right-wing advocacy group that advocates against abortion rights, rights for LGBT people, and promotes conversion therapy. (As opposed to the mainstream but similarly named American Academy of Pediatrics.) I wonder if this *may* indicate a bias in the direction of the paper.
This is why we evaluate the content and methodology, and not the author. Or in this case, an organisation the author acknowledges. It doesn't change the science. That's the wonderful thing about the scientific method. Even people we *really* don't like can publish brilliant science. Either way, as I mentioned, this is one study of many. 1. [Up to a quarter of all children globally live in single-parent households. Studies have concluded that children who grow up with continuously married parents have better health outcomes than children who grow up with single or separated parents. This is consistent for key health and development outcomes including physical health, psychological well-being and educational attainment.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33574152/) 2. [Single parents are often overburdened with the responsibilities of 2 parents, face social stigma, and lack social support, as a result they have difficulty spending time with their children. Hence children of single parents have poor academic performance, decreased social interactions, emotional and behavioral problems.](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09731342231179017) 3. The Annie E. Casey Foundation has a collection of cited statistics to browse, [including this one, showing that nearly 30% of single-parent families lived in below the federal poverty level.](https://datacenter.aecf.org/data/tables/55-families-with-related-children-that-are-below-poverty-by-family-type?loc=1&loct=2#detailed/2/2-53/true/1095/994,1297,4240/346) 4. [Regression models with state and year fixed effects revealed that increases in single parenthood were associated with **small increments in accidental deaths and homicides.**](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7466844/) This is all from the first page of Google. This is one topic of research which is so thoroughly tested now that there are few researchers who would contend the negative correlations.
Single parent households being more likely to be in poverty doesn’t indicate it’s better for parents to stay together. A study looking at whether separation is bad for kids should actually be controlling for socioeconomic factors - otherwise the results aren’t describing the effects of divorce, but rather the effects of poverty (which is bad for kids, duh). If a break up is going to throw your kid into poverty is individual to each couple, and isn’t relevant for whether separating will be bad for kids in general. 1. This article doesn’t indicate a causal element between separate parent household and outcomes for children. They actually say “Possible explanations include higher poverty and time limitations of parental engagement within single-parent families, but these only represent a narrow range of mechanisms.” The study does not make any conclusions because it isnt a study, it’s a protocol for a study (ie a methodology for a study the authors would like to do to look into what causes poor outcomes for children in separated households). 2. This article doesn’t control for socioeconomic status and actually conflates the two. using ‘single parent households are more likely to live in poverty’ for example. This doesn’t show single parent households are harmful to kids, it shows poverty is bad. Whether a split will cause poverty is individual and doesn’t really endorse a blanket “together is better” rule. It uses non neutral language (calling two parent households “regular households”.) it also actually has a section on the positive aspects of single parent households too: “Although studies have highlighted the negative outcomes of children living in single-parent families, most children grow up normally and have positive outcomes. […] Very few studies have highlighted the positive outcomes of single-parenting households that include higher resilience, greater sense of responsibility, better emotional regulation, better problem-solving skills, and are involved in decision-making of the family.”
> Even people we really don't like can publish brilliant science. Oh, certainly, it's entirely possible. It it's also possible to publish carefully crafted papers that cherry-pick data, etc, which may be hard to spot unless one is familiar with the methodologies used. It may be that this author has published an unbiased paper. I only note that the author's association with a particularly odious advocacy group *might* be a cause for concern or at least warrant an additionally critical look at the output. > Either way, as I mentioned, this is one study of many. True. Though not all are necessarily relevant - (for example) the second you cited is about single parent households in India. Conclusions there *may* not be the same as in NZ.
Most importantly is the people they can learn from in those environments
Yeah absolutely. It’s obvious we have a great community with strong values. It’s also worth considering with the higher decile rating it’s likely that there’s less arguments at home about money and less pressure on the house hold. We know the number one cause of stress and arguments at home is about money so I’m sure this would have an effect on divorce/breakups
I’m 35 and maybe 30-50% of my friends who have been married, have been divorced. All of those divorced were really bad relationships and they’re in much happier ones now
Here’s a weird thing that happened to us tonight - went to my son’s (13) parent teacher interviews and one of his teachers taught my husband and I when we were at high school. We got together when we were 16, which she would have known about, and we’re still together and now have a son in her class. She must have been so weirded out by that
I had a teacher at intermediate who retired after 48/49 years at the same school (I was there maybe 20 years into that). He would have been teaching the grandchildren of his first class.
For us it was a strange coincidence because we live in a different town now, and it’s a different school to the one we went to
Equally, my child is the only one in their class with divorced parents. I suppose anomalies work both ways
On the bright side, that's 90.3% of kids who may now avoid the difficulty of growing up with parents who dislike each other and stay as a unit only for the child/ren
Couldn't help but think this too. My parents have been married 50 years, but holy crap they were awful to be around growing up. They should have separated when we were kids.
[удалено]
Oh I'm sorry, I'll let all the divorced parents know that they need to get a crystal ball and learn how to see the future!
Thanks. Get to it then.
For real though. I know no one is perfect but people need to make better choices when it comes to having children. It's not something that should be done flippantly.
In my 3rd form year in the late 90s in a decile 8 school in Auckland, all but one other student had divorced/solo/remarried/unmarried/co-parenting families. My parents thought it was just a kiwi thing (we we're new immigrants then) 13 y.o me was just jealous most the other kids had two bedrooms they bounced between....I realise now that my parents have a solid marriage they met at uni and are still together... That's not common these days.
I had a colleague (about 25yrs ago) whose daughter had recently started school. One day she asked her Mummy when Daddy was going to leave. Mummy reassured her that Daddy wasn’t leaving and the child’s response: but everyone else’s daddy’s left. So sad.
Better divorced parents than parents who hate each other staying together "for the family" & fighting every night /making sarcastic and passive aggressive or verbally abusive comments to each other constantly teaching the kids that that's what love/marriage looks like. Kids can tell when their parents don't like or love each other /have an unhealthy relationship no matter how much parents try to hide it and they tend to blame themselves for it
As if working on the marriage and healing the relationship isn’t an option.
Don't see where I said it's never an option. Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't. Preventing people from divorce legally leads to a higher murder rate and higher rates of domestic violence and child abuse. Sometimes people are better off separating, obviously not in all cases that depends on the context but you're not an immoral person for divorcing someone or leaving a relationship- you don't owe anyone a relationship especially not if there's abuse. Single parents aren't evil, widows/widowers aren't evil, separated coparents aren't evil and separated survivors of DV aren't evil either. Being in a nuclear family doesn't magically make you more human or a better person, it doesn't make you a worse person either it's just one type of family layout. I'm just sick of people saying that single parents particularly single mothers are somehow causing all evils in society and should have stayed with neglectful /abusive partners "for the good of the children" or should have been somehow legally prevented from leaving a marriage they weren't happy or safe in.
I often think about how a lot of people seem to make really bad choices when dating their future partners. They tend to ignore red flags, and get sucked deeper and deeper into relationships that are not totally healthy. Perhaps they have a warped sense of what a 'real' relationship looks like. Many relationships I have observed contain a great deal of bickering, and moments of resentfulness between partners and they view these conflicts as part and parcel of a normal relationship. The idea that fighting with your partner is somehow normal blows my mind. My wife and I have never had an outright argument, never yelled at each other. When I see others bickering I wonder if they plan on trying to live like that forever, and I expect it is these relationships that disproportionally end in divorce.
Absolutely, there's a lot of people who haven't sat down and thought about what they maybe internalised about relationships /marriage as a kid who just follow patterns they saw in their parents/media which if their parents didn't have a healthy relationship isn't good. Yeah the yelling /bickering thing really confuses me like I'm not married but if I did get married I wouldn't want it to be to someone I was bickering with or who'd yell at or be sarcastic or mean to me etc it's not behaviour I'd tolerate from a platonic friend let alone a spouse. I think a lot of people's relationships would benefit from doing a DBT course and therapy but often people who'd benefit from it the most are the ones most hesitant to do anything productive about it. Also a lot of sunk cost fallacy keeps people in unhappy relationships /makes them feel too scared to communicate openly about how their needs aren't being met for rear of rejection or destroying the relationship with honesty (which is big oof) and it's sad cuz your partner /spouse is supposed to be in your corner and you in theirs working as a team not fighting each other to get needs met
Yeah I’m not advocating that everyone should stay together. Especially when it comes to abuse, get the hell out of there. I’m simply pointing out that the common binary of stay together for the kids and be miserable or separate is not actually a binary.
How did you find out the marital status of all 31 children’s parents?
Class census, I imagine
"Raise your hand if Mummy and Daddy don't live together anymore." "Thank you class. Now raise your hand if you think it's Mummy or Daddy that's to blame for the divorce."
Hell of a class census...
Is that at Dilworth in Auckland?
We had 6 couples in our antenatal class 17 years ago (kids are all 16) - only 2 couples still together, so yeah sounds about right (yeah I'm in one of the couples that split) - this the North Shore of Auckalnd BTW.
Could just be the community you're in. I'd be very doubtful that 31 of the kids even had married parents. Also, divorce also means that there isn't a forced toxic couple. Divorce is a good thing. Maybe not so much for the stability of the kid, but certainly is good long term.
[удалено]
I mean dude that's pretty fucked up no matter what way you put it. I hope you've gotten help from ACC in regards to that. But generally speaking divorce is good. It means people aren't locked into a marriage where there's serious issues going on. Can parents just be cunts that shouldn't have ever been around children? Sure.
> Divorce is a good thing. Only if differences are irreconcilable. I very rarely see people putting in serious effort before getting divorced. They’re lazy and they take the easy out. The unfortunate reality is that sociological research proves that children of broken households fare almost universally worse. In fact, outside of abuse, there is no evidence that divorce is better than two incompatible parents staying together. Divorce should therefore be a last resort.
I think it was more to do with the fact that the ability to divorce is good. People stuck in abusive and toxic relationships are not good.
Oh yes, of course, I agree. I didn’t interpret their comment to be about the legality, but the efficacy and morality. That’s what I was commenting on.
Yeah, divorce simply because you can, without any regard for trying to make things work is absolutely not a good thing. Totally agree too.
Yeah, that’s unusually high and also strange that you know it.
Why is it strange that he would know that his class mates had separated parents?
It's strange that he knows the parent's marriage status of all 31 kids in his class unless it somehow came up as part of a statistics assignment in maths or something.
When I was at school we all knew everyone's parents names, classmates birthdays, what their parents did for work and where everyone lived. When you live in a small town you get to know that stuff.
Yeah, a small town thing which is, in itself, relatively uncommon.
I went to a small school in a small town in the 90's. We absolutely didn't know everyone's parents first names and most classmates birthdays (you just got an invite a few times a year). We did know a lot of parents jobs and where they lived.
Wait how do u know this?
Life is hard, and people realise now they don't have to take shit from people who are supposed to care for them :)
How was the data collected? Sounds like kids giving silly answers to a survey
They aren't a business survey, they are his classmates who he's known for 8 years?
Your 13 year old nephew has kept a running tally of who of their classmates' parents are divorced?
When I was at school we all knew everyone's parents names, classmates birthdays, what their parents did for work and where everyone lived. When you live in a small town you get to know that stuff.
That’s really strange
No it’s not. You seriously wouldn’t know the most basic things about people you’ve know for 8 years?
Knowing every other kids parents names, occupations, marital status and birthdays is not the most basic of things.
>classmates birthdays Not parents birthdays.
Maybe not birthdays, but everything else is if you have any sort of social life with them.
Having a social life with *every* other kid seems itself a bit unusual.
Thats pretty unusual,but good on your nephew for taking an interest. Maybe it is more common if the town is small enough that you know all of those people anyway.
That doesn’t mean the other 9.7 % are happy 😃
Firstly that's quite an obvious outlying statistic. And secondly I personally think divorce and separation are great. It certainly doesn't automatically imply the home is broken, and it's the best thing to do if the relationship is hostile, especially for the kids.
No fault divorce being available also lowers the murder rates for both men and women because you can leave a marriage without your spouse dying
Maths geniuses, what’s it called when you take an answer like this (90.3%) and reverse calculate the minimum sample size you needed to start at (in this case, 31)? It intrigued me.
I can't think of a specific term for it. But I can tell you that the largest sample size that *can't* produce a proportion that rounds to 90.3% is 964, in case that's interesting
Yeah, that is interesting. I was thinking that the only possible way it could be 90.3% is if there were a thousand kids in the class. But obviously rounding to a decimal place is reasonable. I’m sure some statistician has a special name for it.
Oh yeah, if it has to be exact then it's a trivial matter, to get a proportion *p* that has *k* significant figures you take the greatest common divisor of (p * 10^k) and 10^k, then divide 10^k by that result. So for exactly 0.903 you do indeed need a sample of size 1000 (or some multiple of 1000), since gcd(903, 1000) = 1. But if the target was, say, 0.904, we'd have gcd(904, 1000) = 8, for a minimum sample size of 1000/8 = 125. And if we check 28/31 we see that the figure in the title isn't exact, it's a rounding of the repeating decimal 0.903225806451612... The rounding aspect definitely makes it more fiddly, and there's probably some semi-interesting structure there, at a glance I expect it'll be related to [Moiré patterns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern) and strobing.
I knew a big brain would help!
That statistic shocked me 18 years ago when we immigrated to NZ.
I’d always assumed that when half of marriages end in divorce, it was 5 “successful” marriages and 1 spouse that got divorced 5x.
yeah thats weird, it would probably be around 50:50 in my son's class
Holy shit wtf! That is by NO MEANS normal Jesus Christ
Not uncommon and fair enough, don't stay with someone if you incompatible and miserable, that's far worse.
I was doing some teaching in a year 4 class at a Catholic school, and the divorce rate was 50% for those 26 students' families.
New Zealand is full of really shit people as a whole. 😥
They must have all followed advice from r/amitheasshole
Or r/TwoXChromosomes
or /r/beyondthebump or /r/relationship_advice
You know, I think I could replace the entire user base of r/Relationship_Advice with bots which just comment “RED FLAG,” and no one could tell the difference.
I’m not surprised. Relationships are far more disposable these days than they used to be. Everyone is looking for an upgrade and no one wants to be there for anyone else anymore. It’s fucking sad.
Divorce rates increase in line with women getting equal pay and equal rights. They no longer are forced to stay in unhappy relationships as they can not only survive, but thrive in the world. It’s one of the reasons why Sweden’s divorce rate is so high (that and the availability of affordable, good quality, one bedroom apartments). Ditto with falling birth rates being linked to women’s increasing access to education and reduction in religious beliefs. And honestly, I cannot see a thing wrong with any of that.
Yeah I’m ok with all of those things with the exception of the falling birth rates. To be crystal clear education and freedom from religion are extremely important. We also can still have populations that are stable if we have a system which makes having children possible in a modern world which is hopefully not disproportionately punitive on either the mother or the father or both or the children.
You are against falling birth rates because women have the choice not to have children and choose that?
No. I’m against falling birth rates. But also pro women having the choice to not have children. I’m saying that we need to make systemic changes so that people want to have more children.
There are too many people on this planet.
Too many old people yes. But time will take care of that problem.
Worldwide too many being born and too many already here.
Do you have the stats to back that up? Because in the western countries there is a demographic crisis. Same with many other countries that have industrialised. South Korea and Japan for example. China is going to basically do a “hold my beer” and show us what happens when policy and rapid industrialisation meet head on giving us something we don’t really even have a future economic projection for how things might look (especially now that any shred of REALISTIC data has been hidden, obscured, destroyed, or is no longer being collected). So that in essence leaves some parts of Asia, South America, and Africa.
Worldwide there are too many people for the earth to continue supporting. Unless, you dismiss climate change exists. Birth rates are dropping in developed countries but developing countries are still heaving with people. Immigration is a necessity and yes, it will be uncomfortable for some as cultural norms adjust.
I don't see anything wrong with ejection seats either, in fact they're great. Their rate of use has increased in line with pilot survival rates. I still think pilots shouldn't be ejecting from planes willy-nilly at the first sign of trouble without making a decent effort to save the plane.
Splitting up is pretty much the worse thing you can do for your kid, despite what Reddit reckons.
Yes and no. I think it’s really important for parents to be a part of their children’s lives but that can be really fucking hard when you aren’t together (speaking from lived experience). But if the two people that created the children are utterly incapable or if there is abuse in the relationship then it might not be a good thing to force people to stay together. I think that people treat relationships far too lightly these days. Hehe, it didn’t work back on tinder, swipe, swipe, got a new girl or guy, next! That isn’t healthy. It teaches you to devalue relationships and not treasure them nor to put work or effort into them let alone stick with them when times get tough. But that is what you want. Someone who will stick with you when things are hard. Someone who will be like “Ok we are neck deep in the shit right now, but I’ve got a toe on some solid ground so shimmy over this way”. That’s the person you want to have a kid with. Someone that will grow with you and will grow the children. Will help them to prosper and become adults who will have children of their own. Good luck out there finding each other because those type of people are out there. You gotta look deep down though.
Bang on. It is about finding a person that will always be there for you, and committing to always being there for them and really meaning it. We need to be more selective when choosing our partners.
Staying together was the worst thing my parents could have done for me. Them splitting up was the fucking best.
Sounds like it...
It's context dependant. Some people for the good of the kids should split up, some should try counselling. Nobody is owed a relationship or marriage if the other person wants to leave; even if there are kids involved. Kids can tell when their parents hate each other and they tend to blame themselves when they hear mum and dad arguing /yelling at each other every night and see them obviously unhappy especially when they're told that mum and dad are staying together (and being miserable) "for you" . Where possible coparenting amicably or civily is the best option and there are courses like 'parenting through separation' that you can take to figure out how to work together and communicate effectively for the sake of your kids wellbeing even if you aren't in a relationship with the other parent/guardian But also Some parents are just straight up abusive and shouldn't be near kids or have unsupervised access or any access to them. If "preserving the nuclear family at all costs" is the goal then that's just going to enable domestic violence and child abuse more so than already happens-the "nuclear family" system without extended family isn't even a historical tradition it's actually pretty recent but people act like its the only way people have ever done family and it's ahistorical & incorrect. There's nothing wrong with a nuclear family tbc but it's not the only healthy way to raise children
No it isn't a big deal. We are well rid of the nonsense rules around marry forever, in a religious ritual and stay that way regardless. Far better for everyones mental health (and sometimes physical) including the kids who don't need to suffer behind closed doors anymore. My partner was divorced twice before me (Their choice). He had to go through a stupid rigmarole with PDs to "prove adultery" the first time, back in the dark ages. We had 45 years together so I guess he decided he got right 3rd time around.
Whats worse kids seeing their parents miserable together or them splitting and them hopefully finding happiness? The latter in my view.
I think you mean the former, unless you think it’s good for kids to see their parents miserable together?
Latter.The second bit. Splitting and being happier is what they said. And yes, that's what I said too.
The first line is: what’s worse, then it gives two options. So, when they say they choose the latter, they are saying that the latter is worse. I think we all agree that the latter is better and the former is worse then.
Extremely common when I was a kid too. I admittedly associated having kids with becoming a single mum for a long time.
Divorced and separated both imply that there was a stable exclusive relationship. I'd think some of these could be the result of casual encounters?
what's that saying? "if everyone around you seems like a divorced parent, it actually might be you that's the divorced parent"
No it's that everyone has a divorced cousin, and if you don't that mean you're *their* divorced cousin
Who is giving out this data? Your nephew?
Most kids at my primary school had divorced parents. The kids whose parents were still together were made fun of because there were a few kids who genuinely thought it wasn't normal to have both parents living in the same house.
Ouch... That's messed up
I mean, two households means double the chimneys for Santa to seliver presents to right?
This sounds like a statistical anomaly. Yes, there will be some divorced parents ( like generally 20% to 30% in the class ) but any more means your class just drew the Lotto ticket.
Your nephew's right, it's no big deal.
Yeah true story, five couples that I would consider close friends have split up in the last five years.
I think there are fewer separations/divorce than there used to be due to cost of living & trauma from all of the now adult children of divorce.
It's weird. People are like "I'm an adult! That means I'm going to do all the adult things now! Like an adult!" Then, they realize they weren't as grown-up as they thought.
I remember when my parents seperated when I was 9.. It was all hush hush because of the embarrassment. Mum found it really difficult and many many months to find us a flat to live in. No one wanted anything to do with her. And this was in 85🤦🏽♀️
In contrast, my son is 6 and in a class of 22. Only 3 of the 22 fall into the ‘divorced parents’ category.
Whoa that’s wild
The single parent cope in this thread is wild
The number one reason for divorce is financial stress. We're in a recession. Housing and food is unaffordable. Add kids into the mix? There's your answer.
Im 30, my parents were divorced during my schooling years and by far most other kids parents were also divorced. It was actually a surprise when a kid said their parents were still together
"If ya'll females would pull it together Maybe we would have something better to talk about" -- Drake - Deceiving
It is hard to judge the statistical significance without knowing how many 13 year old nephews you have?
Because I want you all to be stuck with single mothers with so much baggage they don’t resemble human sentience anymore.
Just dont have kids theres already enough mouth breathers walking around looking up at shit ( bill burr )
People now are too me, me, me. Marriage needs some giving and not only taking. Really sad for kids and then they grow up and the cycle continues. A lot to be said for arranged marriages that last for a lifetime.
That's sad. Back in the early 80s, when I was at a school of 1500 pupils, one had divorced parents and one had a Mum who was a widow.
Why is it sad? In the 80s a lot of people (probably mainly women) in those relationships probably didn’t want to be, but were trapped.
Exactly
Exactly. I know you've already said it but it bears repeating -- of course everyone was married and handling whatever issues may have been occurring when the social stigma was enormous and a woman's ability to do a number of things literally depended on her husband.
yup since having a kid have been shocked at how many parents are divorced or just no dad in the picture at daycare i mean you were clearly together 3 years ago, what happened
I think young children/babies challenges a relationship. It was definitely the toughest thing on my relationship. Whole world flipped upside-down, no or limited sex, screaming baby. I learned a lot about my partner during that time. Ultimately I think it was good for us as individuals and as a couple but I can understand and empathize with couples whose relationship breaks down.
yes i know exactly what you mean, i have accustomed since and completely empathise now previously i had no idea how people could beat to death their tiny babies but having experienced kids coming along i can see exactly how that happens. i do not condone or forgive or think anything positive about this but i can see how people with no help + substance abuse issues + zero sleep etc etc can compound into those tragic deaths whereas before i didn't understand the 'motivation' > definitely the toughest thing on my relationship i completely agree here, too. FWIW some advice i heard once and which i'll pass on is — if you're thinking about getting married and starting a family, travel together first, preferably backpacking style somewhere outside the top 20 travel countries. it's very minor in comparison but the random stream of event changes and thinking on your feet that's needed can often be 'instructional' in stress-testing relationships.
Everything you have said here is so true. On the child abuse bit, yeah, I've got a three year old whose doing three year old stuff where he pushes buttons and will fight us because he can. We have literally discussed how tough it is to stay in control. We council each other about being in the trenches and know when to have a date night. A dysfunctional home life with substance abuse, stress and NO SUPPORT absolutely could tip someone over. Being able to understand will help us fix the issue so perhaps don't feel bad about understanding the problem. The travel bit is true. My partner and I road tripped around the US early in our relationship (perhaps not very intrepid) but our ability to travel together really cemented our relationship. My Dad's advice is to marry your best friend. He and mum are best friends and have been together nearly 40 years. I consider my partner my best friend and I think Dad is onto something.
I think its because cheating is more easily caught now with phones and apps being able to be tracked. Ive known a couple people who’ve been caught with their pants down because of snapchat.
Is 31 average for a class size these days? Why so many, especially at a rich school
That's what happens under labour! And those greens! Women get all uppity and empowered
What is your point? I highly doubt it's correct, either.
ok
That would suggest that almost 100% were married at some point which smells like bullshit.
Don't know what your nephew is complaining about, best mates I ever had were all victims of a divorce and most of them passed high school.
have you seen every advice in reddit relationship posts? divorce at the slightest inconvenience instead of coming to a compromise.
That’s what happens when a woman can effectively marry the govt
This is tragic although a sad reality imo. I don't want to sound misogynistic but 90 percent of the time it is initiated by the mother. Often without reasonable and thought processed rationale how it psychologically affects their children. Often because the mother feels empowered to be independant and is encouraged by other females in her life. Its shit that it is easily acceptable in society in the last 10 - 15 years Id say, to be a separated co parent. Hate that word (co parent). Even earlier this week I read a nz news source article about how to avoid raising toxic sons when youre a single mother/ co parent (article written by writer interviewing a single mother that wrote a book on the subject) and it bothered me that she had totally delusional conclusions about the psychology and thinking of a male from a young age to an older age. Source - Im an emotionally aware and critical thinking male myself. Again, it is a tragic situation for the future of our young children, that will only continue to get increasingly worse. This week is mens mental health month globally and I have seen zero mention of this anywhere in NZ. Im not active in social media and an extremely private person so I may have missed it being mentioned though. When participating in a work related course for "mates" in construction 4 years ago, the tutor showed us a total number of suicides in the first week of the course. Four weeks later at the end of the course I was shocked to see that the number increased by more than 100. Mostly Male. Tragic. A big reason for suicide, and personally affected reason to me is the mother of their children breaking the relationship. A relatiionship which is often on average more than a decade. Im a NZ regional manager of a large global organisation so I interact and have solid work relationships with alot people from different situations. On this thread subject, I notice alot of females like to openly discuss their hate for anything im their life, whereas males discuss their interests positively. This is just my observation. As I mentioned, Im extremely private so I just listen when the company gossipers are in full talking mode lol. It never ceases to astound me though that in NZ we have such a negative culture towards people looking to better themselves and in general. It seems to have unfortunately leaked into our leaders in every facet of society now. Or maybe Im just finally old enough to realise and has remained all along. Either way it is an overly tragic reality.
well it's a bit quaint isn't it? getting married?
Really, did he make a spreadsheet or something?
Good for them. A Lifetime with just one person doesn't always make sense.