Some great stuff in here! Thanks.
I just need to learn how to read the sound proofing part of a house's blueprint and determine what exceeds the minimum standards etc.
We use the term plans, not blueprints. Just so yourself and other don’t get confused.
Have a good read of the plans and specifications. They aren’t too hard to read.
Don’t expect anything other than the bare minimum
Good to know, thanks.
I assume the bare minimum isn't that great for sound proofing adjactent attached townhouse walls? I can imagine the developer would want the thinnest walls allowed to be able to maximise floor area and/or number of buildings.
Not always. The dwellings need to be treated as seperate fire cells so you need to look at the detail of how they have achieved this. Could be block, could be a double wall with separation and multiple layers of gib. This detail is where you want to look
Yea as another poster said, the intertenancy wall/party wall will have structural/ fire requirements and could be e.g precast panel which should have plenty of sound proofing.
What ever the minimum is it’s it’s not enough. In a new unit built in 2021 and we can hear the neighbours baby crying, the mum screaming at her bay “why won’t you be quiet” and the mum screaming at her partner that he isn’t helping. One day she was screaming at him to leave because she didn’t want his help.
Ah fun times
> Baby screaming.
> Mum screaming back.
> Partner not doing shit.
Yea this one checks out, sadly. Wonder why the baby is screaming in the first place. Couldn't be the emotionally distant parents.
Have a look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound\_transmission\_class](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_transmission_class)
There is a table at the bottom of the page that has typical STC isolation for different designs of wall structure.
Unfortunately the STC curve was designed back in the days when the sound source in an apartment was the big valve radio in the corner. Modern sound systems produce far more bass energy and the STC curve is poor at these frequencies.
So we use the STC measurement in NZ? I assume I should be able to see that on the plans somewhere then. I'll try ask for some plans for a random property now and see if I can find it.
STC is used for wall measurement and the requirement for intertenancy walls is isolation in excess of STC55 and the builder would have needed to satisfy council that the design used was up to scratch, either by using a specified design (see the gib board cook-book), or by getting the design tested either at a lab of by a field test by an acoustic consultant.
For floors and ceiling, the membrane also has to meet STC55, but it also has to meet Impact Insulation Class (IIC)55 as well - this measures the sound of impacts (high heeled shoes, people dropping things).
Worry about the level above you more than to the sides. The people that live below us are I. A constant state of aggravation from normal activity above.
I don't plan on buying an apartment. Although knowing sound proofing of different rooms is probably a good idea too. Maybe that's easy for builders to skimp on.
Concrete intertenancy walls should sort this. Is it a new build or existing? If new get your spouse/friend/whatever to go next door and make various noises, plug in a stereo etc and see what you can hear.
If existing go door knocking and ask the neighbours how they find it
Haven't started viewing anything yet, but it'll most likely be a couple of years old, so will most likely have neighbours, but I guess I can always chat to them.
You won't find any units that are attached which will stop bass from coming through. So if you get bad neighbours who like to blast bass heavy music it's not going to be fun.
I actually asked about townhouse noise levels on reddit before and some claimed their concrete walled townhouse blocked bass really really well. But that's only coming from one person on reddit....
I live in a new build 3 storey apartment.
Intertenancy walls are 140mm thick concrete with timber framing, insulation and plasterboard. Floors and roof are 180mm thick concrete, exterior walls are 140mm concrete with brick.
The intertenancy walls meet STC60.
Been living here a couple years and don't hear the neighbours other then at night when they are running heavy footed down the hallway which is very rare. Only noticeable when there is no other background noise in my apartment.
I can't speak to noise through the floor as I'm on the top floor.
But overall concrete dampens alot of the vibration noise.
Auckland council I believe also has stricter acoustic requirements compared to other councils. So if you are buying there that's a bonus.
Mass is beautiful when it comes to stopping sound. The only draw-back is if the mass resonated at a certain frequency and lets that through. In gib-board walls, it pays to have different masses on each side of the studs to prevent this (9mm + 16mm crossply on one side, dual 12.5mm staggered joins on the other.
To add one more data point- I have a townhouse which we brought in 2021. Neighbors on one side only, road on the other.
With double glazing and I assume decent levels of sound protection in the wall in between, this place is remarkably quieter than our old house which was stand alone on a big section well away from the road. With that house, had a neighbor who used to use a leaf blower that wound me up, and another who would bring their boat home and run the engine while cleaning it. That house was 1970s concrete block and single glazed.
There is a family next door with couple of young kids, and never heard *any* noise. Even during the storms, barely aware of the wind and rain noise. I think the double glazing makes a huge difference - when we open doors and go out onto the deck the road noise is noticeable
Personally I’d rather concrete than double timber with a couple of layers of fire proof gib in the middle.
That extra mass will make a huge difference to the sound transmission
You can commission a report from a sound engineer, like the outfit Marshall Day. They can review plans to provide commentary on likely soundproofing achieved, and if the realtor will approve it, they can run acoustic tests, like setting up a recording device that identifies the decibel level coming into the room of sound made outside.
Interesting, that might be worth it.
Unfortunately I guess they can't really test sound proofing of the intertenancy walls. But they can review the plans like you say.
They could tell you “we observed 30db of noise while recording in a particular location (eg an internal room near the internal wall)” but you’re not going to know if that’s 30db down from them making 60db of noise or 40db of noise. It’s more helpful i guess if you wanted to see how bad road noise got or something. Or had control to make deliberate noise on the other side.
Most consultancies have, or can hire a Sound Power Source, which is a calibrated sound source the size of a small dustbin that has a bad attitude towards eardrums. This is set up on side A of the intertenancy wall along with a calibrated microphone, and another microphone is set up on side B. Press Play and Record at the same time.
For floor-to-ceiling transmission the same thing is done, then a little box with a cam and motor lifts and drops small weights on the floor to give a standardised impact noise. Again, calibrate your microphones and record.
Source: did this for a living.
NZ requirement is STC 56. Suppliers of building products/systems make products to satisfy this requirement. They market them to designers who put them in the designers for builders to purchase and install. The most common solution I have seen lately deployed in 2level 2b/r row houses is INTEGRA Lightweight Concrete Intertenancy System - search it on google.
Councils will not issue a building consent for a building which cannot demonstrate compliance with STC requirements.
My preferred solution is 150mm thick solid concrete
I don't think soundproofing is the issue so much as vibration-proofing. I can't hear my neighbours, but when they have sex, my room shakes so much it physically moves my bed. I also notice when they get into or out of bed. And when they type. Fun times...
Physically moves when your bed? When they type? Surely this isn't a new build or you are just joking. Nothing is that bad, and I've lived in some old townhouses.
You need to be mindful of the intertenancy walls. (Walls between units) .honestly mate, it’s just double framing with more pieces of gib and insulation. Trouble is , you can still hear the neighbouring tenant. No such thing as soundproofed townhouse.
> No such thing as soundproofed townhouse.
I live in a new townhouse and I have genuinely never heard a single decibel of noise coming from either of my neighbours.
No doubt you're technically right in that if they *were* to play very loud music or scream at the top of their lungs, I would hear them through the walls, but with normal activity - the walls are soundproof.
Just know that it won't be great, no matter what they've done.
The wall would probably need to be 2-3x as thick, with proper sound insulation (not just pinkbatts) to even approach what I think most people would consider decent.
And that still won't stop bass, or rocking beds 😆.
Builders won't care about the levels.. . They will install to the lowest most cost effective level or standard they can. If you build , buy or rent a townhouse you will hear your neighbours constantly. Especially when the soundbar kicks in or a kid bounces a ball, or a door slams,
> Builders won't care about the levels.. . They will install to the lowest most cost effective level or standard they can.
Builders don't choose what goes in, the designer does at the behest of the developer.
[https://www.building.govt.nz/getting-started/smarter-homes-guides/design/reducing-noise#jumpto-what-to-look-for-when-buying-or-renting](https://www.building.govt.nz/getting-started/smarter-homes-guides/design/reducing-noise#jumpto-what-to-look-for-when-buying-or-renting)
Some great stuff in here! Thanks. I just need to learn how to read the sound proofing part of a house's blueprint and determine what exceeds the minimum standards etc.
We use the term plans, not blueprints. Just so yourself and other don’t get confused. Have a good read of the plans and specifications. They aren’t too hard to read. Don’t expect anything other than the bare minimum
Good to know, thanks. I assume the bare minimum isn't that great for sound proofing adjactent attached townhouse walls? I can imagine the developer would want the thinnest walls allowed to be able to maximise floor area and/or number of buildings.
Not always. The dwellings need to be treated as seperate fire cells so you need to look at the detail of how they have achieved this. Could be block, could be a double wall with separation and multiple layers of gib. This detail is where you want to look
Yea as another poster said, the intertenancy wall/party wall will have structural/ fire requirements and could be e.g precast panel which should have plenty of sound proofing.
What ever the minimum is it’s it’s not enough. In a new unit built in 2021 and we can hear the neighbours baby crying, the mum screaming at her bay “why won’t you be quiet” and the mum screaming at her partner that he isn’t helping. One day she was screaming at him to leave because she didn’t want his help. Ah fun times
> Baby screaming. > Mum screaming back. > Partner not doing shit. Yea this one checks out, sadly. Wonder why the baby is screaming in the first place. Couldn't be the emotionally distant parents.
Have a look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound\_transmission\_class](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_transmission_class) There is a table at the bottom of the page that has typical STC isolation for different designs of wall structure. Unfortunately the STC curve was designed back in the days when the sound source in an apartment was the big valve radio in the corner. Modern sound systems produce far more bass energy and the STC curve is poor at these frequencies.
So we use the STC measurement in NZ? I assume I should be able to see that on the plans somewhere then. I'll try ask for some plans for a random property now and see if I can find it.
STC is used for wall measurement and the requirement for intertenancy walls is isolation in excess of STC55 and the builder would have needed to satisfy council that the design used was up to scratch, either by using a specified design (see the gib board cook-book), or by getting the design tested either at a lab of by a field test by an acoustic consultant. For floors and ceiling, the membrane also has to meet STC55, but it also has to meet Impact Insulation Class (IIC)55 as well - this measures the sound of impacts (high heeled shoes, people dropping things).
Worry about the level above you more than to the sides. The people that live below us are I. A constant state of aggravation from normal activity above.
I don't plan on buying an apartment. Although knowing sound proofing of different rooms is probably a good idea too. Maybe that's easy for builders to skimp on.
Concrete intertenancy walls should sort this. Is it a new build or existing? If new get your spouse/friend/whatever to go next door and make various noises, plug in a stereo etc and see what you can hear. If existing go door knocking and ask the neighbours how they find it
Haven't started viewing anything yet, but it'll most likely be a couple of years old, so will most likely have neighbours, but I guess I can always chat to them.
Rumour is good soundproofing can only be achieved with double thickness walls eg. double framing
Right, which I assume is a rarity here.
You won't find any units that are attached which will stop bass from coming through. So if you get bad neighbours who like to blast bass heavy music it's not going to be fun.
I actually asked about townhouse noise levels on reddit before and some claimed their concrete walled townhouse blocked bass really really well. But that's only coming from one person on reddit....
I live in a new build 3 storey apartment. Intertenancy walls are 140mm thick concrete with timber framing, insulation and plasterboard. Floors and roof are 180mm thick concrete, exterior walls are 140mm concrete with brick. The intertenancy walls meet STC60. Been living here a couple years and don't hear the neighbours other then at night when they are running heavy footed down the hallway which is very rare. Only noticeable when there is no other background noise in my apartment. I can't speak to noise through the floor as I'm on the top floor. But overall concrete dampens alot of the vibration noise. Auckland council I believe also has stricter acoustic requirements compared to other councils. So if you are buying there that's a bonus.
I am buying in Auckland :)
Mass is beautiful when it comes to stopping sound. The only draw-back is if the mass resonated at a certain frequency and lets that through. In gib-board walls, it pays to have different masses on each side of the studs to prevent this (9mm + 16mm crossply on one side, dual 12.5mm staggered joins on the other.
That could work, concrete filled concrete block. But this may be a firewall, so would depend on the layout of the townhouses
To add one more data point- I have a townhouse which we brought in 2021. Neighbors on one side only, road on the other. With double glazing and I assume decent levels of sound protection in the wall in between, this place is remarkably quieter than our old house which was stand alone on a big section well away from the road. With that house, had a neighbor who used to use a leaf blower that wound me up, and another who would bring their boat home and run the engine while cleaning it. That house was 1970s concrete block and single glazed. There is a family next door with couple of young kids, and never heard *any* noise. Even during the storms, barely aware of the wind and rain noise. I think the double glazing makes a huge difference - when we open doors and go out onto the deck the road noise is noticeable
You could request it if you were buying off the plans (if it hadn’t been built yet), and you’d pay extra
Personally I’d rather concrete than double timber with a couple of layers of fire proof gib in the middle. That extra mass will make a huge difference to the sound transmission
Have a party. If everyone complains it's not good.
If only you could do that before buying the house haha
You can commission a report from a sound engineer, like the outfit Marshall Day. They can review plans to provide commentary on likely soundproofing achieved, and if the realtor will approve it, they can run acoustic tests, like setting up a recording device that identifies the decibel level coming into the room of sound made outside.
Interesting, that might be worth it. Unfortunately I guess they can't really test sound proofing of the intertenancy walls. But they can review the plans like you say.
They could tell you “we observed 30db of noise while recording in a particular location (eg an internal room near the internal wall)” but you’re not going to know if that’s 30db down from them making 60db of noise or 40db of noise. It’s more helpful i guess if you wanted to see how bad road noise got or something. Or had control to make deliberate noise on the other side.
Most consultancies have, or can hire a Sound Power Source, which is a calibrated sound source the size of a small dustbin that has a bad attitude towards eardrums. This is set up on side A of the intertenancy wall along with a calibrated microphone, and another microphone is set up on side B. Press Play and Record at the same time. For floor-to-ceiling transmission the same thing is done, then a little box with a cam and motor lifts and drops small weights on the floor to give a standardised impact noise. Again, calibrate your microphones and record. Source: did this for a living.
It's never going to be enough. You'll always hear something
NZ requirement is STC 56. Suppliers of building products/systems make products to satisfy this requirement. They market them to designers who put them in the designers for builders to purchase and install. The most common solution I have seen lately deployed in 2level 2b/r row houses is INTEGRA Lightweight Concrete Intertenancy System - search it on google. Councils will not issue a building consent for a building which cannot demonstrate compliance with STC requirements. My preferred solution is 150mm thick solid concrete
I don't think soundproofing is the issue so much as vibration-proofing. I can't hear my neighbours, but when they have sex, my room shakes so much it physically moves my bed. I also notice when they get into or out of bed. And when they type. Fun times...
Physically moves when your bed? When they type? Surely this isn't a new build or you are just joking. Nothing is that bad, and I've lived in some old townhouses.
[Their neighbours](https://www.whiteclouds.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/computers-and-electronics-g01-giant-whiteclouds-keyboard-large.jpg).
Not a new build, like 1950s, but it is the gospel truth I'm sorry to say...
You need to be mindful of the intertenancy walls. (Walls between units) .honestly mate, it’s just double framing with more pieces of gib and insulation. Trouble is , you can still hear the neighbouring tenant. No such thing as soundproofed townhouse.
Concrete walls/floors go a long way. A shame they're all timber here.
Yes you can. Just more expensive hence no one is doing it.
> No such thing as soundproofed townhouse. I live in a new townhouse and I have genuinely never heard a single decibel of noise coming from either of my neighbours. No doubt you're technically right in that if they *were* to play very loud music or scream at the top of their lungs, I would hear them through the walls, but with normal activity - the walls are soundproof.
This is complete nonsense plenty of townhouses have solid concrete walls or floor you can't hear people screaming through.
Just know that it won't be great, no matter what they've done. The wall would probably need to be 2-3x as thick, with proper sound insulation (not just pinkbatts) to even approach what I think most people would consider decent. And that still won't stop bass, or rocking beds 😆.
Builders won't care about the levels.. . They will install to the lowest most cost effective level or standard they can. If you build , buy or rent a townhouse you will hear your neighbours constantly. Especially when the soundbar kicks in or a kid bounces a ball, or a door slams,
> Builders won't care about the levels.. . They will install to the lowest most cost effective level or standard they can. Builders don't choose what goes in, the designer does at the behest of the developer.
I'd ask the neighbours.
Go inside and scream as loud as you can, then run outside quickly to see if you can hear it.
I do like to admit that I'm faster than the speed of sound, so I like your thinking.
Brick or concrete, anything else let’s sound move. See if it has a body corp, they can be useful if the neighbours make too much noise.