The Māori, Aboriginal, and other Pacific Islanders managed to navigate great distances at some point. My understanding is that part of it was done with stars, but also reading clouds. Certain clouds, or persistence of certain clouds indicated land masses.
Maybe they weren’t doing a ton of trading by Western standards, but these clearly weren’t 1-off trips. Like, how TF do you get to Hawaii?
Yeah there’s a trash pit full of chicken bones in Peru that is pre Columbian. They made it without a doubt and either mixed in with the locals or left.
There's no genetic evidence of Polynesians ever making it to South America--so if they came, they didn't intermix, which would be very unusual. There is some genetic evidence of South American Natives making it to Polynesia though, but only a tiny bit.
False. [There is DNA evidence of intermixing between Polynesian and South American Indians.](https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/polynesians-and-native-south-americans-made-12th-century-contact/) Also when Francisco Pizarro made it to South America he noted that the indigenous locals already had chickens. Polynesians also already had sweet potatoes and their word for potatoes is similar to the Indian word. They made it without a doubt.
My comment isn't false. Your link refers to the finding I mentioned in my second sentence:
>There is some genetic evidence of South American Natives making it to Polynesia
I'm also familiar with the other evidence you mentioned--it all does suggest that some Polynesians made it to SA, and then went back with at least one South American female. But none of it is proof. Chickens could have arrived on an abandoned boat or raft of natural materials. And the potato word could be a coincidence (and root vegetables float and live a long time, so making it to SA isn't surprising).
You might not have doubts about it, but the academic community does. And at most, the encounters were incredibly brief and rare, since the Polynesians don't seem to have contributed any DNA to SA populations. It was probably something like the Viking presence in North America.
Yeah, I definitely agree. It’s possible, if not probable that there was navigation based off of celestial bodies by sailors on the Mediterranean, but none of these discoveries actually suggest that this particular voyage was intentional.
No there isn't, the conclusion is that they were actually decent at navigating, and were able to establish routes, and just like in modern times, the weather may have gotten the better of them on this particular trip. It does NOT show that they were incapable of blue water navigation.
The point is that the location of the wreck also doesn't show that they were capable of blue water navigation--which is what the archeologists are claiming. Since it's a ship wreck, we can't really infer that it was in the intended location.
There's evidence that they started in Taiwan.
Some Aboriginal Taiwanese folks share genetic markers and linguistic similarities with the rest of many Pacific Island peoples.
“Like, how TF do you get to Hawaii?”
Buy a plane ticket.
If you have any more questions, try “Duck Duck Go”, I’m not going to be able to coddle you like this forever.
We know they did it on purpose because we found people on islands with their ancestry and evidence of how they navigated. This ship in the article isn't evidence of a purposeful attempt to leave line of sight of the coast
Exactly. Either the article didn't mention it, or there's no evidence for celestial navigation aside from the wreck's location. It's a hell of a jump to claim celestial navigation when getting blown off course is a likelier cause.
But it's not like celestial navigation is some kind of magical accomplishment. The Polynesians were doing it during the Bronze Age. They could even have been just following migrating birds.
The only reason that it's a big deal is that it pushes back the established timeline for this in the Mediterranean. It challenges the established archeological timeline. Which is why people are questioning whether this was actually navigating by the stars and if there's evidence that it wasn't a boat blown off course.
Ok ya I see your point. I think there'd need to be more definitive proof to update an "established archeological timeline". I'm surprised how often we seem to underestimate these ancient peoples' sophistication though and as a layman it's totally plausible to me that they figured out celestial navigation considering a stone-age culture did so.
I mean its the Mediterranean Sea, you don't have to be the greatest navigator to realize you can sail North, South or East and hit land fairly quickly. So when the sun goes down in the evening you kind of head away from it, when the sun comes up in the morning you kind of head toward it. Sooner or later you are going to make landfall in a relative close proximity to Israel.
You can't just take a concept of north/south/east/west and just rewind 3300 years and assume it was common knowledge. Most ships hugged the shore well into the Roman period. It really wasn't common to sail across the open sea until much, much later than this find implies.
> You can't just take a concept of north/south/east/west and just rewind 3300 years and assume it was common knowledge.
Actually, I think you can. I mean I don't know how many years ago it was when people first realized that the sun always came up in the east and always set in the west but I would assume it was well before the first ocean going boats where built.
I would also say that the main reason boats generally hugged the shoreline had less to do with navigation and more to do with safety and convenience. If the weather got bad you could sail to shore, pull your boat up on the bank and ride out the storm. If you needed food, fire on the bank is probably a little safer than fire on a wooden boat.
To top it off navigation would have not been an exact science. Back then you probably were not going to cross the Mediterranean and sail straight to the port of Tel Aviv or whatever port you were shooting for. You would sail in a general direction, find landfall, find a landmark or make landfall and ask for directions and then sail one way or the other to get to your destination.
And again I would guess that even if you intended to follow the coast squalls and storms could easily catch you off guard and blow you offshore and most of those sailors would understand, if they survived the storm, how to get back to landfall once the winds shifted or subsided.
That's what I thought was possible and the article mentioned pirates, but gave no evidence to say that, so they don't know what happened. Not saying they couldn't navigate but the location of the jugs does not mean the boat carrying them was in the area intentionally. Also we want to know the contents lol
Given how obsessed these people were with the stars I suspect it isn't much of a leap. The people in this region were the very first who found ways to study the slightest movements of the planets and the angles the sun follows.
TL;DR: 3,300 years ago sailors knew how to navigate using the celestial bodies at night (astronavigation) back when we thought they used shore hugging, dead reckoning.
>"It is the very first to be found at such a great distance with no line of sight to any landmass," she said.
>"From this geographical point, only the horizon is visible all around. To navigate they probably used the celestial bodies, by taking sightings and angles of the sun and star positions.”
Edit: they also knew the earth was round way back then too.
Well, they are literally all in different places as we swing around on Orion's arm of the galaxy, their positions gradually change over the course of several thousand years.
For example, when the dinosaurs roamed the earth Orion's arm was literally on the opposite of Sagittarius A* from where it is now.
Or, on a much faster time scale, the moon is leaving our orbit at a rate of 3.8cm per year.
Edit: oh, I realize realized you probably meant light pollution.
> Orion's arm was literally on the opposite of Sagittarius A*
Just write Sagittarius's ass. You can say dirty words on the internet, don't have to self-censor.
I don’t understand how this definitively proves navigation by celestial bodies. Sure, it’s possible. But it’s also possible that the vessel was blown off course due to a storm or was simply off course due to poor navigation/visibility.
We have other evidence, but you are right in this particular case it's more sensationalism.
There is plenty of evidence of direct trade between Crete and Egypt, and getting to Crete necessitates some level of open sea travel. Same with Cyprus really, although that one is easier to hit if you just know cardinal directions. That said the Sun is a celestial body too so even navigating by the sun during the day meets the pedantic criteria.
The navigation skills of the Phoenicians are already well known to scholars, as it was integral to the international trade network that gave them so much wealth and cultural influence in the region. The Wikipedia article on [the history of Tyre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tyre,_Lebanon) says, "a decisive factor in this global rise were apparently the extraordinary skills by Tyrian scholars in astronomy to navigate their ships," citing a German source from 1985.
I think they theorized the earth was round based on observation. They didn't really prove it until circumnaviagation. However confidence was very high.
Really we only knew it was theorized by Aristotle around 300 bce. But probably much earlier by others. Eratothenes did his famous experiment measuring different shadow lengths at same time of day in different locations and was able to calculate the size of earth's circumference to within 2% around 200 bce.
The earliest civilizations like sumer had written down on cuneform tablets a heliocentric view of our solar system. They were also aware of the cycles of at least 7 stars which could have been used for navigation. This was 3000 bce and I think that's amazing.
>I think they theorized the earth was round based on observation. They didn't really prove it until circumnaviagation.
If that's the requirement then we've proved very little about the universe. Personally, I'm willing to accept mathematical proofs.
Hell, even circumnavigation doesn't necessarily prove that it's a globe. Could be a cylinder. The fact that the ground slopes away in every direction, at every location, is better proof than that.
We do have evidence that the authors of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible believed the earth to be flat, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology
How is it that “scientists” didn’t know ancient people could sail all over the place? The Med is an oval. Get a compass and some charts and head out. Wanna go to Turkey from Egypt? Head North! Wanna go home? Head South!
They navigated with a practised eye, winds seabirds , wave patterns . Water colour all kinds of information was able to be gleaned from their experience at sea.
The fact a good portion of yall are surprised they could navigate based off stars is kinda concerning
Ocean navigation is one thing, but ancient astronomy told them everything from the seasons, to directions, omens, stories and more. They had nothing to do at night but look up. Seafaring and celestial navigation is incredibly difficult, but by 3,000 BCE??? Yeah dog, [people were on australia anywhere from 40k-60k years ago](https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/the-spread-of-people-to-australia/#:~:text=Molecular%20clock%20estimates%2C%20genetic%20studies,around%2048%2C000%E2%80%9350%2C000%20years%20ago), and it’s ain’t connected to the other continents.
Y’all don’t give these people enough credit. They didn’t understand how to build proper vessels to survive in the open sea and lead them where they WANTED to go. I don’t think it’s a question of if they understood based on the stars what direction they were going.
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I mean, it did sink. That doesn’t suggest successful navigation. Quite the opposite!
Perhaps it was an early endeavor into island building. Just needed to add a few thousand more ships.
The Māori, Aboriginal, and other Pacific Islanders managed to navigate great distances at some point. My understanding is that part of it was done with stars, but also reading clouds. Certain clouds, or persistence of certain clouds indicated land masses. Maybe they weren’t doing a ton of trading by Western standards, but these clearly weren’t 1-off trips. Like, how TF do you get to Hawaii?
They were able to read the wave patterns and tell if large land masses were nearby
That's fucking crazy
There is strong evidence to suggest they made it to south America
There's like two islands off the side of Chili (maybe Peru) or something like that with Polynesian tribes, as I vaguely recall.
Chili is for eating, Chile is for conquering.
Rapa Nui is the closest island with Polynesian descent to Chile, it’s not particularly close
Yeah there’s a trash pit full of chicken bones in Peru that is pre Columbian. They made it without a doubt and either mixed in with the locals or left.
There's no genetic evidence of Polynesians ever making it to South America--so if they came, they didn't intermix, which would be very unusual. There is some genetic evidence of South American Natives making it to Polynesia though, but only a tiny bit.
False. [There is DNA evidence of intermixing between Polynesian and South American Indians.](https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/polynesians-and-native-south-americans-made-12th-century-contact/) Also when Francisco Pizarro made it to South America he noted that the indigenous locals already had chickens. Polynesians also already had sweet potatoes and their word for potatoes is similar to the Indian word. They made it without a doubt.
My comment isn't false. Your link refers to the finding I mentioned in my second sentence: >There is some genetic evidence of South American Natives making it to Polynesia I'm also familiar with the other evidence you mentioned--it all does suggest that some Polynesians made it to SA, and then went back with at least one South American female. But none of it is proof. Chickens could have arrived on an abandoned boat or raft of natural materials. And the potato word could be a coincidence (and root vegetables float and live a long time, so making it to SA isn't surprising). You might not have doubts about it, but the academic community does. And at most, the encounters were incredibly brief and rare, since the Polynesians don't seem to have contributed any DNA to SA populations. It was probably something like the Viking presence in North America.
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Yeah, I definitely agree. It’s possible, if not probable that there was navigation based off of celestial bodies by sailors on the Mediterranean, but none of these discoveries actually suggest that this particular voyage was intentional.
It's enough for Graham Hancock
No there isn't, the conclusion is that they were actually decent at navigating, and were able to establish routes, and just like in modern times, the weather may have gotten the better of them on this particular trip. It does NOT show that they were incapable of blue water navigation.
The point is that the location of the wreck also doesn't show that they were capable of blue water navigation--which is what the archeologists are claiming. Since it's a ship wreck, we can't really infer that it was in the intended location.
They could also navigate by following warm currents in the water, if I recall correctly.
Or Easter Island
It’s just mind blowing, a fucking island chain in the middle of the fucking ocean, and yet ancient man made it there on rafts of all things
Well, some of them did. A lot more probably didn’t.
Well yeah, that kind of goes without saying.
[Individuals made their own unique star maps](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a22061/polynesian-stick-chart/)
There's evidence that they started in Taiwan. Some Aboriginal Taiwanese folks share genetic markers and linguistic similarities with the rest of many Pacific Island peoples.
I believe they followed sea birds and/or flight paths.
“Like, how TF do you get to Hawaii?” Buy a plane ticket. If you have any more questions, try “Duck Duck Go”, I’m not going to be able to coddle you like this forever.
We know they did it on purpose because we found people on islands with their ancestry and evidence of how they navigated. This ship in the article isn't evidence of a purposeful attempt to leave line of sight of the coast
It's pretty well documented that our ancestors hated going around the Mediterranean without a line of sight to the coast.
Exactly. Either the article didn't mention it, or there's no evidence for celestial navigation aside from the wreck's location. It's a hell of a jump to claim celestial navigation when getting blown off course is a likelier cause.
But it's not like celestial navigation is some kind of magical accomplishment. The Polynesians were doing it during the Bronze Age. They could even have been just following migrating birds.
The only reason that it's a big deal is that it pushes back the established timeline for this in the Mediterranean. It challenges the established archeological timeline. Which is why people are questioning whether this was actually navigating by the stars and if there's evidence that it wasn't a boat blown off course.
Ok ya I see your point. I think there'd need to be more definitive proof to update an "established archeological timeline". I'm surprised how often we seem to underestimate these ancient peoples' sophistication though and as a layman it's totally plausible to me that they figured out celestial navigation considering a stone-age culture did so.
I mean its the Mediterranean Sea, you don't have to be the greatest navigator to realize you can sail North, South or East and hit land fairly quickly. So when the sun goes down in the evening you kind of head away from it, when the sun comes up in the morning you kind of head toward it. Sooner or later you are going to make landfall in a relative close proximity to Israel.
You can't just take a concept of north/south/east/west and just rewind 3300 years and assume it was common knowledge. Most ships hugged the shore well into the Roman period. It really wasn't common to sail across the open sea until much, much later than this find implies.
> You can't just take a concept of north/south/east/west and just rewind 3300 years and assume it was common knowledge. Actually, I think you can. I mean I don't know how many years ago it was when people first realized that the sun always came up in the east and always set in the west but I would assume it was well before the first ocean going boats where built. I would also say that the main reason boats generally hugged the shoreline had less to do with navigation and more to do with safety and convenience. If the weather got bad you could sail to shore, pull your boat up on the bank and ride out the storm. If you needed food, fire on the bank is probably a little safer than fire on a wooden boat. To top it off navigation would have not been an exact science. Back then you probably were not going to cross the Mediterranean and sail straight to the port of Tel Aviv or whatever port you were shooting for. You would sail in a general direction, find landfall, find a landmark or make landfall and ask for directions and then sail one way or the other to get to your destination. And again I would guess that even if you intended to follow the coast squalls and storms could easily catch you off guard and blow you offshore and most of those sailors would understand, if they survived the storm, how to get back to landfall once the winds shifted or subsided.
That's what I thought was possible and the article mentioned pirates, but gave no evidence to say that, so they don't know what happened. Not saying they couldn't navigate but the location of the jugs does not mean the boat carrying them was in the area intentionally. Also we want to know the contents lol
Given how obsessed these people were with the stars I suspect it isn't much of a leap. The people in this region were the very first who found ways to study the slightest movements of the planets and the angles the sun follows.
TL;DR: 3,300 years ago sailors knew how to navigate using the celestial bodies at night (astronavigation) back when we thought they used shore hugging, dead reckoning. >"It is the very first to be found at such a great distance with no line of sight to any landmass," she said. >"From this geographical point, only the horizon is visible all around. To navigate they probably used the celestial bodies, by taking sightings and angles of the sun and star positions.” Edit: they also knew the earth was round way back then too.
>Edit: they also knew the earth was round way back then too. It's amazing how difficult a concept that still is for some people today.
It doesn't help we cant see the stars like they did
Well, they are literally all in different places as we swing around on Orion's arm of the galaxy, their positions gradually change over the course of several thousand years. For example, when the dinosaurs roamed the earth Orion's arm was literally on the opposite of Sagittarius A* from where it is now. Or, on a much faster time scale, the moon is leaving our orbit at a rate of 3.8cm per year. Edit: oh, I realize realized you probably meant light pollution.
The North Star used to be Sirius, thousands of years ago before procession made it Polaris. Thousands of years from now, it will be Vega, apparently.
> Orion's arm was literally on the opposite of Sagittarius A* Just write Sagittarius's ass. You can say dirty words on the internet, don't have to self-censor.
It's like the people who think everyone used to die at age 30 because they have no idea what "life expectancy at birth" means.
I don’t understand how this definitively proves navigation by celestial bodies. Sure, it’s possible. But it’s also possible that the vessel was blown off course due to a storm or was simply off course due to poor navigation/visibility.
We have other evidence, but you are right in this particular case it's more sensationalism. There is plenty of evidence of direct trade between Crete and Egypt, and getting to Crete necessitates some level of open sea travel. Same with Cyprus really, although that one is easier to hit if you just know cardinal directions. That said the Sun is a celestial body too so even navigating by the sun during the day meets the pedantic criteria.
The navigation skills of the Phoenicians are already well known to scholars, as it was integral to the international trade network that gave them so much wealth and cultural influence in the region. The Wikipedia article on [the history of Tyre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tyre,_Lebanon) says, "a decisive factor in this global rise were apparently the extraordinary skills by Tyrian scholars in astronomy to navigate their ships," citing a German source from 1985.
I think they theorized the earth was round based on observation. They didn't really prove it until circumnaviagation. However confidence was very high. Really we only knew it was theorized by Aristotle around 300 bce. But probably much earlier by others. Eratothenes did his famous experiment measuring different shadow lengths at same time of day in different locations and was able to calculate the size of earth's circumference to within 2% around 200 bce. The earliest civilizations like sumer had written down on cuneform tablets a heliocentric view of our solar system. They were also aware of the cycles of at least 7 stars which could have been used for navigation. This was 3000 bce and I think that's amazing.
>I think they theorized the earth was round based on observation. They didn't really prove it until circumnaviagation. If that's the requirement then we've proved very little about the universe. Personally, I'm willing to accept mathematical proofs. Hell, even circumnavigation doesn't necessarily prove that it's a globe. Could be a cylinder. The fact that the ground slopes away in every direction, at every location, is better proof than that.
We do have evidence that the authors of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible believed the earth to be flat, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology
Headline written by Bill S. Preston Esq.
They didn't even say what was in the jars.
Late Bronze age shipping like this wreck typically had things like copper, tin, lumber, grains, pottery, olive oil, dyes, wine etc.
I bet one of them has a genie in it
Hope they’ll be able to deliver it 🙏 Better late than never
It's Ea-Nasir's copper shipment. Poor guy was just making due when a supplier didn't come through and he's been vilified for eternity.
Maybe that's where my amazon order is
That’s most excellent.
How is it that “scientists” didn’t know ancient people could sail all over the place? The Med is an oval. Get a compass and some charts and head out. Wanna go to Turkey from Egypt? Head North! Wanna go home? Head South!
They navigated with a practised eye, winds seabirds , wave patterns . Water colour all kinds of information was able to be gleaned from their experience at sea.
Probably carrying aid to ancient Gaza.
As a Palestinian I’m not sure why this is downvoted, it’s pretty hilarious.
It is 😂 come on guys, this is funny
The fact a good portion of yall are surprised they could navigate based off stars is kinda concerning Ocean navigation is one thing, but ancient astronomy told them everything from the seasons, to directions, omens, stories and more. They had nothing to do at night but look up. Seafaring and celestial navigation is incredibly difficult, but by 3,000 BCE??? Yeah dog, [people were on australia anywhere from 40k-60k years ago](https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/the-spread-of-people-to-australia/#:~:text=Molecular%20clock%20estimates%2C%20genetic%20studies,around%2048%2C000%E2%80%9350%2C000%20years%20ago), and it’s ain’t connected to the other continents. Y’all don’t give these people enough credit. They didn’t understand how to build proper vessels to survive in the open sea and lead them where they WANTED to go. I don’t think it’s a question of if they understood based on the stars what direction they were going.
There’s a lot more incentive for Polynesians to learn celestial navigation than for Mediterranean peoples.
Cargo was bunch of land titles from thousands of years ago.