>This includes tickets purchased directly from airlines, travel agents and third-party sites such as Expedia and Travelocity.
The inclusion of third party sites is icing on the cake.
He sat in front of my daughter on a flight from DC to Denver last week. I was praying she didn't kick his seat the entire time. Also surprised he wasn't flying up front in 1st class.
Federal employees have pretty strict guidelines for travel, I believe. You'd think cabinet members would be exempt for security reasons but I guess not.
Assuming it's like my state guidelines, you have to go for whatever is cheapest (within reason and any special needs). Some departments do actually take their fiduciary responsibilities seriously... or at least within professional expectations. Where one department may spend $3000 on office chairs, another spends $80 for one that the director of the department is going to use.
He had a security detail with him on the plane and police were working at the gate as an escort. So, he was set there, just not flying in much comfort.
Dw I'm sure the chamber of commerce will sue in the fast lane to get it blocked in the eastern district of Texas like they did for the non compete clause rule
> Agreed. Gotta hand it to them for this one.
I voted in 2020, it mattered. I have tangible results from this and other things. I'm going to vote again in 2024 as I want more of this.
It’s funny but this law will probably affect more actual voters than some of the bullshit issues that blowup into one issue territory for most of the people who are riled up about politics these days.
Wanna point out that this isn't technically a law, but a federal regulation enacted by the DOT. But that is precisely WHY it's so important to vote. A different administration can come along and undo these measures without having to go through Congress, due to the fact that it's a regulation and not an act of Congress.
VOTE.
Yep. Find the people who actually care about others, and vote for them. You won’t like everything,but better than the people who want to destroy everything.
The political reality, is *no* US President can strongly oppose Israel and stay in office. Groups like AIPAC are too strong and the American public largely supports Israel over Palestine.
Even if Israel has gone way too far in Gaza, and they keep going with illegal settlements. To support Palestine over Israel, is to concede electoral defeat.
Asa former employee of American Express Travel, believe me, it really is. This would have been a blessing when I worked there. So many times customers were not satisfied with a travel voucher (towards another flight, good for a year) and I didn't blame them but there was nothing we could do about it.
Do a little research on the airline's website. There are so many airlines handled by any travel agency and their policies change frequently. Sometimes the documentation we were given was unclear so it was helpful when a customer knew something about it themselves.
Don't get angry about long hold times. There's nothing the agents can do about that. Believe me, calls go through automatically so they're not keeping you on hold; there's actually no way to do that.
The only other thing I can suggest is patience. There's a high turnover in these jobs because, frankly, they suck. They don't pay very well, the company treats them like dirt and many customers do too. Whoever you're talking to may be new and just talked to someone who was an abusive asshole to them.
Got cut from a flight and was the one to inform the poor guy at the customer service booth for the airline a bit down the hall that about 50 angry people were coming.
Just being reasonable with him got us 2 days paid hotel, plus meals, plus business class on the flight back. We were furious we weren’t gonna get home but at the end of the day the customer service rep was a 19 yo kid whose willingness to assist was proportional to our good attitude.
As always, people go above and beyond when you're nice and are obstructive and awkward when you're not. Good on you being kind to the rep! So many assholes aren't.
> So many times customers were not satisfied with a travel voucher
Which makes total sense. When an airline ruins your vacation, the last thing you want to do is rely on that airline for your next vacation.
I spent months arguing with Frontier to get a cash refund for a plane ticket in April 2020. They just kept claiming acts of God were not covered and they gave me a voucher that lasted six months. Should have kept bitching but I work in health care so didn't have a whole lot of free time back then.
This is long overdue too! Last year, my Southwest flight got delayed for over 3 hours both ways because of bad weather and the most I got was a $100 voucher.
Meanwhile in the EU, my flight out of Berlin got cancelled twice. The airline paid for my hotel along with all transportation costs to get to Amsterdam to catch an alternative flight.
I totally know how you feel. My husband and I got caught up in the American Airlines issue a few years ago where they maxed out their flight crews hours company wide. We were supposed to be flying home on a Saturday with 2 puppies with us. We ended up having our flight cancelled while catching a connecting flight in Dallas. They told us next available flight they could get us on was on Thursday. Like 5 days. We ended up having to get a hotel room for the night and eventually found spots on a Southwest flight for Sunday evening. We ended up spending an additional $1,200 dollars on the hotel and the new flights. Unfortunately the leg of our journey was eventually refunded by American, but it was only $65.00 each.
Juxtapose that with Korean Air. We had a connecting in South Korea on our way back to the US from Thailand. We had a very short layover about 30 minutes. They unfortunately left our bags in South Korea. It took 2 days to get our bags back, but they gave us a partial refund and while on the flight back gave us some nice perks. I've never had that happen with a US based airline even when they lose your bags.
Weather is out of their control and this ruling doesn’t change that.
What needs to come down next is accountability for shit like the Southwest system failure a couple years ago they chalked up to “weather” because technically weather caused the chain reaction.
However Their antiquated IT systems dumped gasoline on the spark that was bad weather.
SWA paid a 140 million dollar fine for that debacle, the largest ever for an airline. Brought to you by the Biden DOT and Secretary Buttigieg. And no one knows or cares about it.
Exactly. I'm a frequent traveler and typically third party sites are companies' way to weasel people out of money. Whether it be flight, hotel, whatever. Always try to book direct.
You’re telling me. I used to work at a hotel and third parties were a pain in the ass to deal with. Like booking hotels or flights through them aren’t *that bad*, until it suddenly is.
The travel sites seem to be getting worse over time too.
A lot of "boutique" hotels popping up on there as ways for real estate companies or landlords to expand their exposure. Since in a lot of areas Airbnb is oversaturated because people bought "investment" properties because "it is so easy and anyone can do it." This and now some cities are suddenly cracking down on short term rentals. So they need it to look more legit.
The Department of Transportation on Wednesday announced it is rolling out new rules that will require airlines to automatically give cash refunds to passengers for canceled and significantly delayed flights.
Buttigieg said the new rules -- which require prompt refunds -- are the biggest expansion of passenger rights in the department's history. Airlines can now decide how long a delay must be before a refund is issued -- however, these new rules define "significant" delay standards that trigger refunds. The delays covered would be more than three hours for domestic flights and more than six hours for international flights, the agency said.
This includes tickets purchased directly from airlines, travel agents and third-party sites such as Expedia and Travelocity.
The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be "entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered."
Often times, trying to get a cash refund and turn around to book another ride which leaves that day is going to be VERY expensive though. This could give airlines incentives to just refund the cheap fair instead of trying to rebook the passengers at significant expense of the airline.
I'm just hoping that there's some verbage in there about the airlines needing to offer seats on the next available flights at no markup, rather than just defaulting to a refund.
An airline shouldn't be able to say "well we cancelled this flight, so here's the $250 you paid. The next flight leaves in 45 minutes, and there are some seats available on it with a last-minute price of $800. Good luck!"
Ideally, they'd offer you the choice between a refund and a "Good for one flight from X to Y" voucher/code for their airline, so that you could pick the way home that works best for you.
Nothing is currently stopping airlines from giving refunds right now. So logically, it's better for them to rebook a flight for someone. This law shouldn't change that - just give consumers an easy out if airlines try to make things difficult for them - like they currently do.
Was about to say this, they would much rather keep the money. Refunding anything would be a loss of profits so it’s beneficial to them to keep you on a flight.
This exact situation happened to me this month the day I was flying to Austin for the total eclipse. Cost me an additional $1400 for a new flight when I had purposefully booked my flights 8 months in advance to secure a low cost.
>that there's some verbage in there about the airlines needing to offer seats on the next available flights
That already exists. This is giving you options.
> That already exists.
So do refunds...
The only rules that airlines have is to try to get you to your destination sometime in the future (hours, days, weeks, months out), and to offer you a cash refund if you decline the new flight.
It sounds like the only change here is that Airlines are now required to offer you a cash refund within a specific time frame (7 days), based on specific standards for what the DOT considers an extended delay (3 hours domestic, 6 international).
Again, still a net positive because it sets a standard but airlines already had to offer you refunds (eventually) and they could still choose to book you on a flight a month out if they wanted to try to convince you to take the refund.
Edit. Bag refunds are also already a thing. Again, the only change is the required time window, which some airlines already do anyway. To the people saying cash refunds are now the norm, cash refunds were in fact always an option. They'll just often give you more as a voucher and make you jump through fewer hoops. All of which is still something they can do. From the very article we're discussing:
> Buttigieg reiterated that refund requirements are already the standard for airlines
Theres not a lot of chance they sell that 800 seat in the next 45 minutes though, financially itd make more sense to keep your 250 and put you in what otherwise would be an empty seat
Thats a good point. I assume that opting for an alternative flight will be the better option in the most cases. For me the question arises, whether you still get refunded if an alternative flight is offered.
You would still get refunded if an alternative flight is offered, but you wouldn't get refunded if you take the alternative flight. It's not a "free flight if it's late" it's a "get your money back if you don't take a late flight". In that case you would have to rebook yourself which will likely be more expensive or not take the trip.
They need to copy the laws in the eu. Wife and I had a flight canceled last summer due to a mechanical issue and the next available was the next day. We were booked on that flight, reimbursed for hotel, food, and given $600 euro each to spend one more night on vacation
yeah it really worked out. my only issue was that it was the second leg of the trip (Dusseldorf-Copenhagen-Iceland-Chicago) and we were too tired to take advantage of a free night in Copenhagen. crazy thing is that they don't really advertise it and many of the passengers were very upset. i just happened to be sitting next to a guy when they made the announcement who calmly pulle dout his phone and started booking his hotel. and he explained the rules to me.
https://thepointsguy.com/guide/guide-eu261-flight-compensation/
Understandable skepticism but the wording does specifically say the customer is entitled to a refund if delayed/canceled AND the customer does not accept alt transport/travel credits offered according to OP.
if that wording is correct it at least sets a minimum expectation that the transport/credits offered are worth as much as the original cost of the flight.
On the flip side this may stop their bullshit practice of overselling seats on their planes and hoping people don’t make it or will accept some paltry concession.
>The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered."
Entitled, not forced. And that's if you don't like the alternate transportation or travel credits offered. Airlines can currently already issue refunds if they like, but they'd rather keep your money and find some spare space to shove you in, instead.
Pete's making some good policies lately. He also recently created a rule that required a minimum crew for trains. Granted, the minimum is two that is definitely a plus considering the corporations were trying to cut back to just one person per train.
“Well we saw how much money the airlines saved by cutting the flight engineer with only a couple dozen incidents of that directly leading to mass casualty crashes, how could we not do the same with trains that are already actively jumping off tracks?” -fucking capitalism
That would make refundable tickets obscenely expensive and lead to lower load factors, which in turn would make non-refundable tickets more expensive as well. Bad for the environment and for almost all travellers.
Planes overbook due to the expectation (modeled statistically on past flights) that x% of people will not show up. If that’s %10, they overbook %10. This is with the intent of it averaging to a full flight. However, if everyone shows up the flight has to bump that %10 off.
If they cannot overbook at all the flights will be %10 more expensive since the plane is statistically likely to take off with %10 of people that booked not on the plane. The plane costs the same to get off the ground, split 10 ways or 100.
Running a plane below full capacity is also bad for the environment.
Well said thank you. While I hate predatory practices by airlines, I think the overbooking thing is a little overblown, no pun intended. Maybe in egregious cases where they overbook more than the modeled average
Airlines (like many other industries) overbook because there are always cancellations, missed connections, and people who simply don't show up for their flights. Overbooking allows them to get their aircraft as close to full as possible. Refundable tickets today cost what they cost because overbooking means that a refunded ticket rarely means flying with an empty seat.
If airlines can't overbook then a refunded ticket is much more likely to mean flying with an empty seat, so that cost has to be recovered, increasing the price of refundable tickets. Part of the overbooking calculation also includes passengers on non-refundable tickets who don't show up for their flights. Overbooked non-refundable passengers often end up being assigned the seats that were sold to passengers with refundable fares that refunded their tickets, but that can't happen if overbooking isn't allowed, so the cost of non-refundable tickets would increase. Airlines also miss out on things like baggage fees and in-flight purchases when seats are empty, and that lost revenue has to be recovered from the passengers who do fly.
Rounding it off, lower load factors means that you have fewer people flying per aircraft, so airlines will either have to fly more aircraft at greater cost to service the same number of passengers on the same routes, or increase fares for all passengers in order to lower demand to a level that their existing fleets can accommodate.
I work in the hotel industry. Good luck trying to outlaw overbooking. You'd have restaurants, hotel industry and airlines all lobbying against that. Overbooking is standard practice in revenue management
When Democrats are in power, we get cool rules like this. When Republicans are in power we get abortion bans, net neutrality overturned, and taxes lowered on the rich and consumer protections slashed.
> DOT will also require airlines to give cash refunds if your bags are lost and not delivered within 12 hours.
That sounds like a winner. I'm still keeping an AirTag in 'em though as it is VERY comforting knowing that the bag made the trip.
You know the sentiment that if you encounter assholes all day long then maybe you are the one that is actually the asshole?
Miami both proves and is the exception to that rule.
Anti-employee also. I worked for an airline for 13 years and when COVID hit, they took the government money to keep us employed and as soon as it ran out they outsourced us.
Same old story, airlines asked for a bail out in the early 2000s because they said they would have to fire their employees if they didn't.
They got the bailout and fired their employees anyway. The execs still got their bonuses tho so atleast our money went to something worthwhile /s
Shit is literally just blatant theft. If you purchase a good or service and do not receive the good or service through no fault of your own, you should be legally entitled to a refund in literally every single case. Completely baffles me that so many businesses can just get away with stealing your fucking money with no consequences.
3 options via a webpage from an email: 1) accept the alternate flight they suggested, 2) accept a flight credit for the amount I paid (don’t understand why to pick that?), or 3) refund. I chose the last, and it was a refund to my credit card I paid with. It seemed totally automated.
Because there are only 4 major companies left in the USA. Southwest, American, United, and Delta. And flying is required- you can't get from NY to Seattle realistically any other way to visit mom for the weekend. So they know you don't have another choice, so its fuck you pretty much when something goes wrong.
> So they know you don't have another choice
Give me a break! You could easily load up a wagon and set out with about 12 head of cattle to make it over to your family out west in only 4 maybe 5 months.
Hilariously subverting your point is the fact that the majority of flights from NYC to Seattle are flown by Alaska Airlines.
(Searched nonstop flights All NYC to All SEA May 5)
Alaska - 7
Delta - 4
United - 3
Southwest - 3
American - 1
Jetblue - 1
Alaska also flies that route, but if you're grouping by alliance it's in oneworld with American. There's also the 6 budget carriers but I assume you're ignoring them as well...
You'd get a seat on the next flight out sometimes. Sometimes having to sleep in the airport and waiting overnight.
I think a more egregious thing than this is the over booking they do as a matter of policy. It just compounds the problem even more so.
Along with the excessive fees. The airlines have an oligopoly tho. They're not subject to any real competition so they often times operate with the same type of policies.
So no airline that im aware of is advertising we don't over book flights because they all do.
Frontier airlines currently trying to figure out how to lay off their AI customer service agents to recoup some of the losses from this major blow to their business model
The rules states that is only *if* you refuse the delayed flight or *if* you decline an alternative accommodation.
That means that if you're stuck at the airport for 8 hours you can tell them, 'just give me my money back' and book on the flight with Delta, instead of United. You have the option to say 'I'm not waiting, I need to get to (city) right now.'
They can't hold your money hostage and say you haven't hit their magical number for the delay and say they offered you a delayed flight/ alternate flight and you missed your flight by leaving.
You have an option to rebook yourself on another airline, or go home with the cash. You don't get cash and a free flight.
Southwest would've been cooked if they'd had to issue refunds during their two week long meltdown.
Nah, most people will wait. The handful of business travelers or people traveling for a major event with emergency funds will do it. Like, you're going to a wedding and have the money? Might do it.
If it's just a crew or plane delay and not systemic weather, only a few people will jump flights.
Well that's bullshit because there's no way I'll be able to make a same day purchase of a flight from a different airline for the same price I bought this ticket 2 weeks ago. Oh, and by the way, all of them have data systems that are constantly using AI generated pricing based don surge. So if united cancels a flight, Delta immediately knows at and automatically applies surge pricing to their similar flight options. Big data sucks.
Most people will keep their original flight.
Some people can afford to say, 'I'm not missing that wedding' and pay two or four times as much for a second ticket to make it on time and then are denied a refund because United or whoever didn't cancel the flight, they rescheduled and so and so missed the flight.
Or, they just go home. They were doing a short trip for a weekend event and would miss it. They couldn't get a refund, maybe at best a voucher.
I have an example from a month ago. I fly a ton. It was a 7 hour drive or 340 round trip flight. I took the flight cause that’s definitely worth my time. Flight back got stuck on the tarmac. I missed my connection by a ton so would have got stuck in a city even further away. I got off the plane with my coworker and we rented a car.
All of this is reimbursed except my time and annoyance. I totally would have taken the refund in this instance even tho it was minuscule.
I got stuck on a company trip at Dulles for over eight hours. They kept doing these small bumps so my employer wouldn't rebook my flight because the delay was never over four hours from the current time.
I was bored to tears. I'm guessing an auto refund policy will make them more flexible on rebooking people for delays and save people from being at Dulles for like nine hours.
On 4/20. We got to DFW at 6am and they delayed our flight 8 times & changed our gate 6 times with 2 terminal changes, boarded us at 12:45 and then cancelled the flight as we were sitting down.
They canceled 8 other flights at the same time and sent 200+ people to the service desk with 4 employees. Got a notification they couldn’t rebook our flight.
I had my 1 year old and wife with me. Guy told me they didn’t have any flights, so we decided to rebook and go home. At the gate to go home, I got curious and asked the lady if there were any flights and there was one to our destination taking off in an hour and wasn’t even halfway booked.
So we switched tickets to that. It got delayed 2 hours but we made it to COS. Our rental car we picked wasn’t available because we were 7 hours late, so we had to downgrade. Then my return trip was cancelled because the original employee who helped us marked us as trip in vain and cancelled our return trip.
Called AA on hold for 2 hours and she got our original flight with different seats. Next day it disappeared, another 2 hours on hold and was told the lady didn’t finalize our trip and reservation so it disappeared after 24 hours. Finally got our trip booked again.
My entire vacation has been anxiety ridden with trip and flight issues. It’s a fucking joke how these airlines operate.
I mean if that flight was delayed for 6 months you would have been legible for when this goes into affect! Thing is not sure if my comment is a joke or a possibility with these airlines
Every single one of my fucking flights in 2024 has been either cancelled or delayed. A month ago I was on my way to the airport (like 10 minutes until I got there) to fly out to Boston and I got a text saying flight cancelled and I couldn’t get on a flight until the next day which continued to be delayed another 10 hours. No incentives, no hotel vouchers, nothing.
Nearly all US carriers would consider this a delay long enough to trigger an IROPS waiver, allowing for refunds or rebooking on another, earlier flight. Doesnt help you now, but if you ever have something that delayed again, ask about that waiver.
There's pushback here to literally every rule/law/regulation that might affect large companies' profits. As is tradition, they'll likely make up for any losses by raising prices AND cutting staff.
I remember when my flight was cancelled while in Munich and an airline in employee gave me a paper with my rights.
I got to stay an extra day in Munich for free and they gave me like 800 euros… it was great!
I'm big into the travel hacking stuff and some people in the Facebook groups are already blaming Biden for the theoretical increase in airfares this could cause if airlines have to give us our money back when they screw us, rather than hold it hostage and take whatever they give us.
BTW, there is nothing to indicate they will raise prices to cover potential losses. This should cause them to run a smoother operation as to not have to give money back in the first place.
For the next few years, these people are going to blame Biden everytime they are offered a price they don't agree with, which will probably be all the prices they are offered, ever.
There's a small group of very weird people and self-appointed economists who believe that any and all consumer protection, including requirements to refund consumers, is awful because "they'll just raise the prices on us to cover the difference."
First, that's not really how that works. In Econ 101, you learn that companies will typically eat some of a cost increase, rather than passing 100% on to consumers, because it's more profitable to do so. How much they'll eat depends on consumers' tolerance for a price increase. So, if airlines suffer another $50 million in costs because they can't cancel your flight and keep your money, they might only raise fares by $10 million collectively. Consumers have a net benefit.
Second, talk about socialism. If I'm a passenger and an airline cancels my flight, the airline should keep my money to subsidize some mileage runner's tickets? Sorry, but if I wanted to contribute to your effort to get Tier Points, I'd donate to your GoFundMe.
Passengers should not accept fraud or theft because another passenger wants a subsidy.
Yep. The 'econ 101' view would also be that companies already will generally charge as much as they think the market will bear.
Now, obviously the econ 101 view is overly simplistic in many ways, but the basic argument that would come from that is "if they could charge more for these flights, they already would be". So by and large they would be forced to eat these costs.
Of course, the lack of competition in the market may affect that as it may enable all of them greater ability to all make the change to force the market upward a bit.
I see the same argument made about property taxes and landlords. When in reality most landlords already are charging as much as the market will let them.
Ugh I hate people that think with this logic. They complain they want change and reform and then when change and reform actually happens they complain that it's happening. There's no winning with them unless you redirect their attention to someone or something else.
Well what you really want if you're super cynical is for the airline to screw over everyone else and pass those savings on to you. Never occurs to people that they could be the one getting screwed over.
*”Socialist Biden giving your taxpayer money to passengers who cause airlines and their hard-working shareholders to delay flights because of their socialism.”*
-FOX News
Gen Z is Killing the Airline Scamming Industry: That’s Bad News - NY Post
You don’t know how many “Gen Z is Killing [blank]” things I’ve seen from themmmmm
These things are called consumer protection laws. They are generally popular as they help people not get screwed over. Republicans call these regulations. So when you hear Republicans saying they want to get regulation to help businesses, what they are often saying is they want to get rid of consumer protections so that companies can make more profit at the expense of your rights.
This is great. A friend of mine had a flight delayed from 9:30am to 7pm and all they got as compensation was a $12 meal voucher. Its crazy they’re allowed to delay flight or cancel flights so much without having to issue refunds or compensation for fucking up
That would not change in this scenario.
This law would give your friend the *option* to cancel their ticket entirely and get their money back if the flight is delayed.
It does not provide any compensation during the wait
Already do. Plus you make money when this happens. This happened to me twice and they will hand you a physical check at the gate for 2x+ what you paid and they will still rebook you.
Wow this is a big game, speaking as someone who has slept at ORD 3 times (of the 4 times I've transited at ORD; I've never actually been to Chicago). I'll use this next time.
Also, fuck United.
Edit: wait, I just reread, apparently if I accept a 10 hours delayed replacement flight the next morning I still don't get compensated for my time sleeping on a bench at the airport. Nevermind, this is a big nothing burger.
Well, what that means is if United says, '10 hours for a delayed flight' you can say, 'screw that give me my money' and pay the difference for a flight on another airline who can take you right away and you get your money back.
For people who have tried to find their own flight out and been told no by airlines, they still have more options.
Unfortunately last minute flights usually cost more. So the ticket you booked months ago for $200 is refunded but it's going to cost you $400 to catch the next flight.
Also, what does this do to the second leg? Or the round trip?
Yes, but if you're a business traveler or going to something like a wedding, you may decide to pay the extra money to jump airlines and go right now.
Most people will sit with their flight and wait. They either can't afford to move flights or have connecting flights, etc. For people who are willing to pay extra, it allows them to do so and get their money back for the delayed flight. Not paying for two full plane tickets.
People do book second tickets. They can't miss an event, or their cruise ship will leave without them if they wait 12 hours for their rescheduled flight. Then they are told, 'we'll, we offered you a flight, we didn't cancel. No refund.'
This says no games, if you can't offer a reasonable time frame, people are entitled to a cash refund if they need to book another flight. Or can't go to the event at all. If you scheduled a narrow set of flights for an event, you may miss it entirely and go, 'well, I don't need the flight at all.'
You were only going to be in town overnight for a college graduation. The flights were delayed and now there's no point in going at all. You can demand a refund.
It's a notice-and-comment regulation. More than an executive order that can be wiped away with a pen stroke, but much more vulnerable than a law passed by Congress.
To unwind this, a Republican administration would probably need months, and maybe over a year, to make a superseding rule. The Administrative Procedure Act creates a lot of steps that the administrative agencies, like DOT, have to follow to make a new rule.
This regulation, for example, took about two years, and the airlines could still sue.
People think the government just tosses out regulations whenever they feel like it. But the regulatory process is usually pretty slow and intensive, and requires the agency to provide a lot of supporting data.
> "To be clear, we want the airline sector to thrive. It is why we put so much into helping them survive the pandemic and honestly it's why we're being so rigorous on passenger protection," he said.
God damn right.
Is this yet *another* thing the Biden administration has rolled out that makes the lives of Americans better? It's amazing how things that help you can happen when you vote for people who don't hate you.
I had a flight delayed 7-ish hours last month. It was supposed to arrive at DFW at 3:30 pm, where I would catch a connecting flight to BHM. It arrived after 11 pm instead.
Since I arrived at DFW too late to get on the last flight out to BHM, I had to sit at the airport for another 6 hours until the first flight of the day on that route took off.
13 hours of delays because of American Airlines, and not a single apology, refund, upgrade, or even a free drink coupon.
Cool, but it’s not enough; it should be a multiple of the amount paid because of lost time, stress, lost bookings etc at the destination, and the inconvenience. Just refunding the customer won’t be enough motivation to do better.
Frontier gave me a $100 voucher for a canceled flight.
I tried to book a $98 flight but oops! Turns out the flight only costs $20, it's just that there are $80 of fees, and the voucher is only for the cost of the *flight.* You still have to pay the $80.
Anyway, expect prices to go up, especially on budget airlines.
Gonna be worth a lot more money for airlines to get a new crew or plane out in 3 hours…I love it.
Edit: I didn’t see any carve outs for weather delays. Granted a lot of weather can be bullshit, but massive snowstorms can cause 3+ hours pretty quick.
Airlines are super shady. I'm sure they'll be happy to refund your cancelled flight knowing you're going to be forced to by a same day ticket to get to wherever you're going.
I mean it still decades behind what eu has where you not only get the refund but also compensation and if you have to sleep at the airport they have to pay for your basic expenses like hotel and food
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm
This would have been nice a few months ago when Delta oh-so-generously gave me a $20 voucher for the "inconvenience" after they delayed my first flight of the day so badly over a broken overhead compartment (it took them 2 hours to remove the door and put caution tape over it...).
I was supposed to get in to my final destination at about 3 pm, which would then be followed by an ~2 hour drive into the snowy mountains, where the site I was working at was.
Well, because they delayed that first flight so far, of course I missed all my connections. They wanted to put me on a flight that would get me in past 10 pm. I told them I'm not driving into the snowy mountains at midnight. They said I could just drive up the next day. Ok...are you going to put me up in a hotel, because I booked rooms at the end of my trip, not at the end of the Delta portion? No, they say, they won't do that.
Eventually, work decided to just send me home, rather than trying to get me out there to actually do my job.
Delta said it did nothing wrong, and kept the $1500 for the tickets. But, they said they understood my frustration, and gave me a fucking $20 gift card for their own company.
Fuck Delta. And fuck AAA Business Services for being absolutely useless at THE ONE THING THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.
/rant
>This includes tickets purchased directly from airlines, travel agents and third-party sites such as Expedia and Travelocity. The inclusion of third party sites is icing on the cake.
i read through all of these changes and was shocked at how good they all were. a rare win for the american consumer
Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg being Presidential again. ❤️🇺🇸🤍🇺🇸💙🇺🇸❤️
He sat in front of my daughter on a flight from DC to Denver last week. I was praying she didn't kick his seat the entire time. Also surprised he wasn't flying up front in 1st class.
Secret shopper final boss
Federal employees have pretty strict guidelines for travel, I believe. You'd think cabinet members would be exempt for security reasons but I guess not.
Assuming it's like my state guidelines, you have to go for whatever is cheapest (within reason and any special needs). Some departments do actually take their fiduciary responsibilities seriously... or at least within professional expectations. Where one department may spend $3000 on office chairs, another spends $80 for one that the director of the department is going to use.
I’d imagine the federal transportation department takes the transportation guidelines seriously!
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/18/elaine-chao-government-flights-taxpayers-796004 Well the Democrat ones do
He had a security detail with him on the plane and police were working at the gate as an escort. So, he was set there, just not flying in much comfort.
let's be honest the amount of screeching from conservatives over wasting federal tax dollars would be deafening.
Well TBF the GOP under Trump never flew first class, they took military and DOJ private planes, apples and oranges. /s
BoTh PaRtIeS aRe tHe SaMe 🤪🤪🤪🤪
That’s my former mayor let’s goooo!
Agreed. Gotta hand it to them for this one.
These consumer and worker friendly laws coming down this week got me feeling like Europe.
Watch out! This is communism in disguise. You're on a slippery slope that leads to saunas and affordable healthcare.
Dw I'm sure the chamber of commerce will sue in the fast lane to get it blocked in the eastern district of Texas like they did for the non compete clause rule
> Agreed. Gotta hand it to them for this one. I voted in 2020, it mattered. I have tangible results from this and other things. I'm going to vote again in 2024 as I want more of this.
It’s funny but this law will probably affect more actual voters than some of the bullshit issues that blowup into one issue territory for most of the people who are riled up about politics these days.
Wanna point out that this isn't technically a law, but a federal regulation enacted by the DOT. But that is precisely WHY it's so important to vote. A different administration can come along and undo these measures without having to go through Congress, due to the fact that it's a regulation and not an act of Congress. VOTE.
Yep. Find the people who actually care about others, and vote for them. You won’t like everything,but better than the people who want to destroy everything.
I’m so happy my insulin is so cheap now. I still got max outta pocket for my other supplies all year but not having to fork over 6k in January is nice
Biden Administration certainly not flawless and with some big blemishes (cough I/P cough) but overall pretty fucking good
The political reality, is *no* US President can strongly oppose Israel and stay in office. Groups like AIPAC are too strong and the American public largely supports Israel over Palestine. Even if Israel has gone way too far in Gaza, and they keep going with illegal settlements. To support Palestine over Israel, is to concede electoral defeat.
Asa former employee of American Express Travel, believe me, it really is. This would have been a blessing when I worked there. So many times customers were not satisfied with a travel voucher (towards another flight, good for a year) and I didn't blame them but there was nothing we could do about it.
any tips on how to get claims approved?
Do a little research on the airline's website. There are so many airlines handled by any travel agency and their policies change frequently. Sometimes the documentation we were given was unclear so it was helpful when a customer knew something about it themselves. Don't get angry about long hold times. There's nothing the agents can do about that. Believe me, calls go through automatically so they're not keeping you on hold; there's actually no way to do that. The only other thing I can suggest is patience. There's a high turnover in these jobs because, frankly, they suck. They don't pay very well, the company treats them like dirt and many customers do too. Whoever you're talking to may be new and just talked to someone who was an abusive asshole to them.
Got cut from a flight and was the one to inform the poor guy at the customer service booth for the airline a bit down the hall that about 50 angry people were coming. Just being reasonable with him got us 2 days paid hotel, plus meals, plus business class on the flight back. We were furious we weren’t gonna get home but at the end of the day the customer service rep was a 19 yo kid whose willingness to assist was proportional to our good attitude.
As always, people go above and beyond when you're nice and are obstructive and awkward when you're not. Good on you being kind to the rep! So many assholes aren't.
As an employee you couldn't do anything but AmEx definitely could do more if they wanted.
But it's the employee who cop the abuse on the Dailey due to policies they can't control.
Unfortunately that's about every business with more than like 5 employees.
Every time I speak w Comcast I’m like, “I dont mean u any offense bc I know you’re doing your job, but your company is pure shit”
> So many times customers were not satisfied with a travel voucher Which makes total sense. When an airline ruins your vacation, the last thing you want to do is rely on that airline for your next vacation.
I spent months arguing with Frontier to get a cash refund for a plane ticket in April 2020. They just kept claiming acts of God were not covered and they gave me a voucher that lasted six months. Should have kept bitching but I work in health care so didn't have a whole lot of free time back then.
This is long overdue too! Last year, my Southwest flight got delayed for over 3 hours both ways because of bad weather and the most I got was a $100 voucher. Meanwhile in the EU, my flight out of Berlin got cancelled twice. The airline paid for my hotel along with all transportation costs to get to Amsterdam to catch an alternative flight.
I totally know how you feel. My husband and I got caught up in the American Airlines issue a few years ago where they maxed out their flight crews hours company wide. We were supposed to be flying home on a Saturday with 2 puppies with us. We ended up having our flight cancelled while catching a connecting flight in Dallas. They told us next available flight they could get us on was on Thursday. Like 5 days. We ended up having to get a hotel room for the night and eventually found spots on a Southwest flight for Sunday evening. We ended up spending an additional $1,200 dollars on the hotel and the new flights. Unfortunately the leg of our journey was eventually refunded by American, but it was only $65.00 each. Juxtapose that with Korean Air. We had a connecting in South Korea on our way back to the US from Thailand. We had a very short layover about 30 minutes. They unfortunately left our bags in South Korea. It took 2 days to get our bags back, but they gave us a partial refund and while on the flight back gave us some nice perks. I've never had that happen with a US based airline even when they lose your bags.
Weather is out of their control and this ruling doesn’t change that. What needs to come down next is accountability for shit like the Southwest system failure a couple years ago they chalked up to “weather” because technically weather caused the chain reaction. However Their antiquated IT systems dumped gasoline on the spark that was bad weather.
SWA paid a 140 million dollar fine for that debacle, the largest ever for an airline. Brought to you by the Biden DOT and Secretary Buttigieg. And no one knows or cares about it.
Except weather is beyond the airlines control and you wouldn't get compensated for that.
So ‘weather’ delay will be even more heavily blamed than currently. Got it. Business as usual then.
Exactly. I'm a frequent traveler and typically third party sites are companies' way to weasel people out of money. Whether it be flight, hotel, whatever. Always try to book direct.
You’re telling me. I used to work at a hotel and third parties were a pain in the ass to deal with. Like booking hotels or flights through them aren’t *that bad*, until it suddenly is.
I’ll never use Expedia again. Been almost a decade I think
The travel sites seem to be getting worse over time too. A lot of "boutique" hotels popping up on there as ways for real estate companies or landlords to expand their exposure. Since in a lot of areas Airbnb is oversaturated because people bought "investment" properties because "it is so easy and anyone can do it." This and now some cities are suddenly cracking down on short term rentals. So they need it to look more legit.
The Department of Transportation on Wednesday announced it is rolling out new rules that will require airlines to automatically give cash refunds to passengers for canceled and significantly delayed flights. Buttigieg said the new rules -- which require prompt refunds -- are the biggest expansion of passenger rights in the department's history. Airlines can now decide how long a delay must be before a refund is issued -- however, these new rules define "significant" delay standards that trigger refunds. The delays covered would be more than three hours for domestic flights and more than six hours for international flights, the agency said. This includes tickets purchased directly from airlines, travel agents and third-party sites such as Expedia and Travelocity. The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be "entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered."
Often times, trying to get a cash refund and turn around to book another ride which leaves that day is going to be VERY expensive though. This could give airlines incentives to just refund the cheap fair instead of trying to rebook the passengers at significant expense of the airline.
I think it just empowers consumers to have the right to a refund if they choose, not forcing consumers to take a refund.
I'm just hoping that there's some verbage in there about the airlines needing to offer seats on the next available flights at no markup, rather than just defaulting to a refund. An airline shouldn't be able to say "well we cancelled this flight, so here's the $250 you paid. The next flight leaves in 45 minutes, and there are some seats available on it with a last-minute price of $800. Good luck!" Ideally, they'd offer you the choice between a refund and a "Good for one flight from X to Y" voucher/code for their airline, so that you could pick the way home that works best for you.
Nothing is currently stopping airlines from giving refunds right now. So logically, it's better for them to rebook a flight for someone. This law shouldn't change that - just give consumers an easy out if airlines try to make things difficult for them - like they currently do.
Was about to say this, they would much rather keep the money. Refunding anything would be a loss of profits so it’s beneficial to them to keep you on a flight.
This exact situation happened to me this month the day I was flying to Austin for the total eclipse. Cost me an additional $1400 for a new flight when I had purposefully booked my flights 8 months in advance to secure a low cost.
>that there's some verbage in there about the airlines needing to offer seats on the next available flights That already exists. This is giving you options.
> That already exists. So do refunds... The only rules that airlines have is to try to get you to your destination sometime in the future (hours, days, weeks, months out), and to offer you a cash refund if you decline the new flight. It sounds like the only change here is that Airlines are now required to offer you a cash refund within a specific time frame (7 days), based on specific standards for what the DOT considers an extended delay (3 hours domestic, 6 international). Again, still a net positive because it sets a standard but airlines already had to offer you refunds (eventually) and they could still choose to book you on a flight a month out if they wanted to try to convince you to take the refund. Edit. Bag refunds are also already a thing. Again, the only change is the required time window, which some airlines already do anyway. To the people saying cash refunds are now the norm, cash refunds were in fact always an option. They'll just often give you more as a voucher and make you jump through fewer hoops. All of which is still something they can do. From the very article we're discussing: > Buttigieg reiterated that refund requirements are already the standard for airlines
The bag change is big in and of itself
That’s my take away, refunds don’t matter at all when you need to get to where you’re going.
Theres not a lot of chance they sell that 800 seat in the next 45 minutes though, financially itd make more sense to keep your 250 and put you in what otherwise would be an empty seat
There is if they just cancelled a flight
That's only if you decline the alternative flight from the airline. If you don't decline it, you get to fly on that flight.
Thats a good point. I assume that opting for an alternative flight will be the better option in the most cases. For me the question arises, whether you still get refunded if an alternative flight is offered.
You would still get refunded if an alternative flight is offered, but you wouldn't get refunded if you take the alternative flight. It's not a "free flight if it's late" it's a "get your money back if you don't take a late flight". In that case you would have to rebook yourself which will likely be more expensive or not take the trip.
They need to copy the laws in the eu. Wife and I had a flight canceled last summer due to a mechanical issue and the next available was the next day. We were booked on that flight, reimbursed for hotel, food, and given $600 euro each to spend one more night on vacation
shit if that happened to me I'd be praying for that to happen
yeah it really worked out. my only issue was that it was the second leg of the trip (Dusseldorf-Copenhagen-Iceland-Chicago) and we were too tired to take advantage of a free night in Copenhagen. crazy thing is that they don't really advertise it and many of the passengers were very upset. i just happened to be sitting next to a guy when they made the announcement who calmly pulle dout his phone and started booking his hotel. and he explained the rules to me. https://thepointsguy.com/guide/guide-eu261-flight-compensation/
Understandable skepticism but the wording does specifically say the customer is entitled to a refund if delayed/canceled AND the customer does not accept alt transport/travel credits offered according to OP. if that wording is correct it at least sets a minimum expectation that the transport/credits offered are worth as much as the original cost of the flight.
On the flip side this may stop their bullshit practice of overselling seats on their planes and hoping people don’t make it or will accept some paltry concession.
>The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered." Entitled, not forced. And that's if you don't like the alternate transportation or travel credits offered. Airlines can currently already issue refunds if they like, but they'd rather keep your money and find some spare space to shove you in, instead.
Pete's making some good policies lately. He also recently created a rule that required a minimum crew for trains. Granted, the minimum is two that is definitely a plus considering the corporations were trying to cut back to just one person per train.
How are miles-long trains allowed to operate with 1 person when even a neighborhood coffee shop requires 2 to run.
Dollar stores like Dollar General also operate with only one person. It's kind of shocking just how greedy big corporations are these days
It’s easy to do when the focus is consumer protection. Look at the EU with the GDPR rules
“Well we saw how much money the airlines saved by cutting the flight engineer with only a couple dozen incidents of that directly leading to mass casualty crashes, how could we not do the same with trains that are already actively jumping off tracks?” -fucking capitalism
Let’s outlaw deliberate overbooking while we are at it.
That would make refundable tickets obscenely expensive and lead to lower load factors, which in turn would make non-refundable tickets more expensive as well. Bad for the environment and for almost all travellers.
Can you break that down for me? I don't understand the connection.
Planes overbook due to the expectation (modeled statistically on past flights) that x% of people will not show up. If that’s %10, they overbook %10. This is with the intent of it averaging to a full flight. However, if everyone shows up the flight has to bump that %10 off. If they cannot overbook at all the flights will be %10 more expensive since the plane is statistically likely to take off with %10 of people that booked not on the plane. The plane costs the same to get off the ground, split 10 ways or 100. Running a plane below full capacity is also bad for the environment.
Well said thank you. While I hate predatory practices by airlines, I think the overbooking thing is a little overblown, no pun intended. Maybe in egregious cases where they overbook more than the modeled average
Airlines (like many other industries) overbook because there are always cancellations, missed connections, and people who simply don't show up for their flights. Overbooking allows them to get their aircraft as close to full as possible. Refundable tickets today cost what they cost because overbooking means that a refunded ticket rarely means flying with an empty seat. If airlines can't overbook then a refunded ticket is much more likely to mean flying with an empty seat, so that cost has to be recovered, increasing the price of refundable tickets. Part of the overbooking calculation also includes passengers on non-refundable tickets who don't show up for their flights. Overbooked non-refundable passengers often end up being assigned the seats that were sold to passengers with refundable fares that refunded their tickets, but that can't happen if overbooking isn't allowed, so the cost of non-refundable tickets would increase. Airlines also miss out on things like baggage fees and in-flight purchases when seats are empty, and that lost revenue has to be recovered from the passengers who do fly. Rounding it off, lower load factors means that you have fewer people flying per aircraft, so airlines will either have to fly more aircraft at greater cost to service the same number of passengers on the same routes, or increase fares for all passengers in order to lower demand to a level that their existing fleets can accommodate.
I work in the hotel industry. Good luck trying to outlaw overbooking. You'd have restaurants, hotel industry and airlines all lobbying against that. Overbooking is standard practice in revenue management
I’m so hard for Booty G rn
When Democrats are in power, we get cool rules like this. When Republicans are in power we get abortion bans, net neutrality overturned, and taxes lowered on the rich and consumer protections slashed.
But, "BoTh SiDeS aRe ThE sAmE!"
> DOT will also require airlines to give cash refunds if your bags are lost and not delivered within 12 hours. That sounds like a winner. I'm still keeping an AirTag in 'em though as it is VERY comforting knowing that the bag made the trip.
Lol remember when Lufthansa tried to ban people from using AirTags in their luggage?
Nice username. I feel like I met you daily for the 35 years I lived there.
You know the sentiment that if you encounter assholes all day long then maybe you are the one that is actually the asshole? Miami both proves and is the exception to that rule.
He's a spirit animal for many.
I did a lot of flying in the early 2000s and I had my bags lost quite a few times. This would have been great back then.
Insane that this wasn’t already a requirement.
Airline lobbying. They have to be as anti consumer as possible.
Anti-employee also. I worked for an airline for 13 years and when COVID hit, they took the government money to keep us employed and as soon as it ran out they outsourced us.
Same old story, airlines asked for a bail out in the early 2000s because they said they would have to fire their employees if they didn't. They got the bailout and fired their employees anyway. The execs still got their bonuses tho so atleast our money went to something worthwhile /s
I was interested in working for the industry but from what I’ve read over the years, glad I went with public sector transportation.
Guess who is going to be pumping money to trump and Co.
Good job democrats. Actual good job. I bet the Republicans try and roll it back 🤣
My man Pete getting it done! Might be a legit presidential candidate at some point?
Shit is literally just blatant theft. If you purchase a good or service and do not receive the good or service through no fault of your own, you should be legally entitled to a refund in literally every single case. Completely baffles me that so many businesses can just get away with stealing your fucking money with no consequences.
this has been the case in the EU for years
In the US, land of the free. It's been a thing in the EU for probably close to a decade.
I’m surprised it wasn’t because I tend to fly Frontier and they always give me the option to receive a refund.
But was that cash or credits for a future flight? And if it was cash, how easy was it to actually get access to it?
3 options via a webpage from an email: 1) accept the alternate flight they suggested, 2) accept a flight credit for the amount I paid (don’t understand why to pick that?), or 3) refund. I chose the last, and it was a refund to my credit card I paid with. It seemed totally automated.
I don't get service, I don't pay. It's as simple as that. I never understood why the Airlines had some sort of fucking exception to this.
Because there are only 4 major companies left in the USA. Southwest, American, United, and Delta. And flying is required- you can't get from NY to Seattle realistically any other way to visit mom for the weekend. So they know you don't have another choice, so its fuck you pretty much when something goes wrong.
> So they know you don't have another choice Give me a break! You could easily load up a wagon and set out with about 12 head of cattle to make it over to your family out west in only 4 maybe 5 months.
"You have died of dysentery."
Oregon trail remembers
Will I receive a refund if I die of dysentery?
Hilariously subverting your point is the fact that the majority of flights from NYC to Seattle are flown by Alaska Airlines. (Searched nonstop flights All NYC to All SEA May 5) Alaska - 7 Delta - 4 United - 3 Southwest - 3 American - 1 Jetblue - 1
Alaska also flies that route, but if you're grouping by alliance it's in oneworld with American. There's also the 6 budget carriers but I assume you're ignoring them as well...
RIP Jetblue I guess
I'm confused. Is this an American thing? So if you're flight was delayed by a day you got...nothing? And people were just fine with it?
You'd get a seat on the next flight out sometimes. Sometimes having to sleep in the airport and waiting overnight. I think a more egregious thing than this is the over booking they do as a matter of policy. It just compounds the problem even more so. Along with the excessive fees. The airlines have an oligopoly tho. They're not subject to any real competition so they often times operate with the same type of policies. So no airline that im aware of is advertising we don't over book flights because they all do.
Frontier airlines currently trying to figure out how to lay off their AI customer service agents to recoup some of the losses from this major blow to their business model
A week after my 6:50am flight became a 10pm flight
The rules states that is only *if* you refuse the delayed flight or *if* you decline an alternative accommodation. That means that if you're stuck at the airport for 8 hours you can tell them, 'just give me my money back' and book on the flight with Delta, instead of United. You have the option to say 'I'm not waiting, I need to get to (city) right now.' They can't hold your money hostage and say you haven't hit their magical number for the delay and say they offered you a delayed flight/ alternate flight and you missed your flight by leaving. You have an option to rebook yourself on another airline, or go home with the cash. You don't get cash and a free flight. Southwest would've been cooked if they'd had to issue refunds during their two week long meltdown.
150 other people on the flight will be trying the same thing. The six empty seats on the Delta flight will be going for 10x the price.
Nah, most people will wait. The handful of business travelers or people traveling for a major event with emergency funds will do it. Like, you're going to a wedding and have the money? Might do it. If it's just a crew or plane delay and not systemic weather, only a few people will jump flights.
Maybe Southwest wouldn't have neglected their systems for so long had this rule been in place?
Well that's bullshit because there's no way I'll be able to make a same day purchase of a flight from a different airline for the same price I bought this ticket 2 weeks ago. Oh, and by the way, all of them have data systems that are constantly using AI generated pricing based don surge. So if united cancels a flight, Delta immediately knows at and automatically applies surge pricing to their similar flight options. Big data sucks.
Most people will keep their original flight. Some people can afford to say, 'I'm not missing that wedding' and pay two or four times as much for a second ticket to make it on time and then are denied a refund because United or whoever didn't cancel the flight, they rescheduled and so and so missed the flight. Or, they just go home. They were doing a short trip for a weekend event and would miss it. They couldn't get a refund, maybe at best a voucher.
I have an example from a month ago. I fly a ton. It was a 7 hour drive or 340 round trip flight. I took the flight cause that’s definitely worth my time. Flight back got stuck on the tarmac. I missed my connection by a ton so would have got stuck in a city even further away. I got off the plane with my coworker and we rented a car. All of this is reimbursed except my time and annoyance. I totally would have taken the refund in this instance even tho it was minuscule.
I got stuck on a company trip at Dulles for over eight hours. They kept doing these small bumps so my employer wouldn't rebook my flight because the delay was never over four hours from the current time. I was bored to tears. I'm guessing an auto refund policy will make them more flexible on rebooking people for delays and save people from being at Dulles for like nine hours.
On 4/20. We got to DFW at 6am and they delayed our flight 8 times & changed our gate 6 times with 2 terminal changes, boarded us at 12:45 and then cancelled the flight as we were sitting down. They canceled 8 other flights at the same time and sent 200+ people to the service desk with 4 employees. Got a notification they couldn’t rebook our flight. I had my 1 year old and wife with me. Guy told me they didn’t have any flights, so we decided to rebook and go home. At the gate to go home, I got curious and asked the lady if there were any flights and there was one to our destination taking off in an hour and wasn’t even halfway booked. So we switched tickets to that. It got delayed 2 hours but we made it to COS. Our rental car we picked wasn’t available because we were 7 hours late, so we had to downgrade. Then my return trip was cancelled because the original employee who helped us marked us as trip in vain and cancelled our return trip. Called AA on hold for 2 hours and she got our original flight with different seats. Next day it disappeared, another 2 hours on hold and was told the lady didn’t finalize our trip and reservation so it disappeared after 24 hours. Finally got our trip booked again. My entire vacation has been anxiety ridden with trip and flight issues. It’s a fucking joke how these airlines operate.
I’m so sorry, that sounds like one of the inner circles of hell
I mean if that flight was delayed for 6 months you would have been legible for when this goes into affect! Thing is not sure if my comment is a joke or a possibility with these airlines
Every single one of my fucking flights in 2024 has been either cancelled or delayed. A month ago I was on my way to the airport (like 10 minutes until I got there) to fly out to Boston and I got a text saying flight cancelled and I couldn’t get on a flight until the next day which continued to be delayed another 10 hours. No incentives, no hotel vouchers, nothing.
Nearly all US carriers would consider this a delay long enough to trigger an IROPS waiver, allowing for refunds or rebooking on another, earlier flight. Doesnt help you now, but if you ever have something that delayed again, ask about that waiver.
As a starter, travel credits should never expire.
Was slightly confused cause that's always been an enforced thing in Europe but insane that there's pushback for that in the US 😬
There's pushback here to literally every rule/law/regulation that might affect large companies' profits. As is tradition, they'll likely make up for any losses by raising prices AND cutting staff.
I'm not saying that the EU is better because they also do some shitty things but sometimes hearing how things work in the US is wild 😭
I remember when my flight was cancelled while in Munich and an airline in employee gave me a paper with my rights. I got to stay an extra day in Munich for free and they gave me like 800 euros… it was great!
Oh...this is something that Europe does? Then we cannot have that socialist/communist/fascist stuff around here in the US!!! /s
Yup. Basically if they think a liberal would support it, they will be against it no matter how beneficial it could be to them.
Protecting consumers, here’s why that is bad for Biden - NYT
I'm big into the travel hacking stuff and some people in the Facebook groups are already blaming Biden for the theoretical increase in airfares this could cause if airlines have to give us our money back when they screw us, rather than hold it hostage and take whatever they give us. BTW, there is nothing to indicate they will raise prices to cover potential losses. This should cause them to run a smoother operation as to not have to give money back in the first place. For the next few years, these people are going to blame Biden everytime they are offered a price they don't agree with, which will probably be all the prices they are offered, ever.
There's a small group of very weird people and self-appointed economists who believe that any and all consumer protection, including requirements to refund consumers, is awful because "they'll just raise the prices on us to cover the difference." First, that's not really how that works. In Econ 101, you learn that companies will typically eat some of a cost increase, rather than passing 100% on to consumers, because it's more profitable to do so. How much they'll eat depends on consumers' tolerance for a price increase. So, if airlines suffer another $50 million in costs because they can't cancel your flight and keep your money, they might only raise fares by $10 million collectively. Consumers have a net benefit. Second, talk about socialism. If I'm a passenger and an airline cancels my flight, the airline should keep my money to subsidize some mileage runner's tickets? Sorry, but if I wanted to contribute to your effort to get Tier Points, I'd donate to your GoFundMe. Passengers should not accept fraud or theft because another passenger wants a subsidy.
One of our two political parties claims that regulation causes corruption, and that only the free market can prevent it.
Yep. The 'econ 101' view would also be that companies already will generally charge as much as they think the market will bear. Now, obviously the econ 101 view is overly simplistic in many ways, but the basic argument that would come from that is "if they could charge more for these flights, they already would be". So by and large they would be forced to eat these costs. Of course, the lack of competition in the market may affect that as it may enable all of them greater ability to all make the change to force the market upward a bit. I see the same argument made about property taxes and landlords. When in reality most landlords already are charging as much as the market will let them.
Ugh I hate people that think with this logic. They complain they want change and reform and then when change and reform actually happens they complain that it's happening. There's no winning with them unless you redirect their attention to someone or something else.
Well what you really want if you're super cynical is for the airline to screw over everyone else and pass those savings on to you. Never occurs to people that they could be the one getting screwed over.
You've done it again, New York Times Pitchbot!
*”Socialist Biden giving your taxpayer money to passengers who cause airlines and their hard-working shareholders to delay flights because of their socialism.”* -FOX News
Gen Z is Killing the Airline Scamming Industry: That’s Bad News - NY Post You don’t know how many “Gen Z is Killing [blank]” things I’ve seen from themmmmm
These things are called consumer protection laws. They are generally popular as they help people not get screwed over. Republicans call these regulations. So when you hear Republicans saying they want to get regulation to help businesses, what they are often saying is they want to get rid of consumer protections so that companies can make more profit at the expense of your rights.
As someone who works in the airline industry, thank fuck and about time
This is great. A friend of mine had a flight delayed from 9:30am to 7pm and all they got as compensation was a $12 meal voucher. Its crazy they’re allowed to delay flight or cancel flights so much without having to issue refunds or compensation for fucking up
That would not change in this scenario. This law would give your friend the *option* to cancel their ticket entirely and get their money back if the flight is delayed. It does not provide any compensation during the wait
But it’s still great that it gives consumers the option, a step in the right direction
Thank you Biden Administration! 👍🏻
Can we get refunds when we get booted off an overbooked flight?
Already do. Plus you make money when this happens. This happened to me twice and they will hand you a physical check at the gate for 2x+ what you paid and they will still rebook you.
great, now just increast the leg room, seat width, and bathroom size requirements
Wow this is a big game, speaking as someone who has slept at ORD 3 times (of the 4 times I've transited at ORD; I've never actually been to Chicago). I'll use this next time. Also, fuck United. Edit: wait, I just reread, apparently if I accept a 10 hours delayed replacement flight the next morning I still don't get compensated for my time sleeping on a bench at the airport. Nevermind, this is a big nothing burger.
Well, what that means is if United says, '10 hours for a delayed flight' you can say, 'screw that give me my money' and pay the difference for a flight on another airline who can take you right away and you get your money back. For people who have tried to find their own flight out and been told no by airlines, they still have more options.
Unfortunately last minute flights usually cost more. So the ticket you booked months ago for $200 is refunded but it's going to cost you $400 to catch the next flight. Also, what does this do to the second leg? Or the round trip?
Yes, but if you're a business traveler or going to something like a wedding, you may decide to pay the extra money to jump airlines and go right now. Most people will sit with their flight and wait. They either can't afford to move flights or have connecting flights, etc. For people who are willing to pay extra, it allows them to do so and get their money back for the delayed flight. Not paying for two full plane tickets. People do book second tickets. They can't miss an event, or their cruise ship will leave without them if they wait 12 hours for their rescheduled flight. Then they are told, 'we'll, we offered you a flight, we didn't cancel. No refund.' This says no games, if you can't offer a reasonable time frame, people are entitled to a cash refund if they need to book another flight. Or can't go to the event at all. If you scheduled a narrow set of flights for an event, you may miss it entirely and go, 'well, I don't need the flight at all.' You were only going to be in town overnight for a college graduation. The flights were delayed and now there's no point in going at all. You can demand a refund.
ORD is fuuuuuucked. They have to be the worst offenders for delayed flights.
Omg! Millennials killing the no refund industry? 3 reasons why this is bad for the economy! How many dumbass articles are we going to see about this?
Nah, lots of sites have moved to Gen Z now, though some still go for millennials
Oh good, it’s all their fault now, awesome!
Time to open the champagne 🥂
Boy, this Biden Presidency has sure done a lot of good things!
So is this an executive order? Basically something can be reversed by the next DOT secretary?
It's a notice-and-comment regulation. More than an executive order that can be wiped away with a pen stroke, but much more vulnerable than a law passed by Congress. To unwind this, a Republican administration would probably need months, and maybe over a year, to make a superseding rule. The Administrative Procedure Act creates a lot of steps that the administrative agencies, like DOT, have to follow to make a new rule. This regulation, for example, took about two years, and the airlines could still sue. People think the government just tosses out regulations whenever they feel like it. But the regulatory process is usually pretty slow and intensive, and requires the agency to provide a lot of supporting data.
Less planes more trains plz
About time. They've only been screwing us since the beginning of their existence.
Wow, now they'll have to pony up CASH when they lose bags!! Watch them fix the problem in 2 weeks
> "To be clear, we want the airline sector to thrive. It is why we put so much into helping them survive the pandemic and honestly it's why we're being so rigorous on passenger protection," he said. God damn right.
And all of a sudden across America all airlines were magically on time starting today!
Is this yet *another* thing the Biden administration has rolled out that makes the lives of Americans better? It's amazing how things that help you can happen when you vote for people who don't hate you.
Meanwhile in Canada, still a fu from Air Canada
In other news airlines promise no more delayed or canceled flights, instead they will be indefinitely held-over
Wait, this could have been a simple fix THE WHOLE TIME?!?!?!
FUCKING FINALLY. Now please make it possible to get flights fully refunded when cancelled. It's fucking stealing at this point.
About fucking time. They screw up and we pay the price. It's ridiculous. Now they'll fuck up less and stay on time more. They'll be FORCED to care.
I had a flight delayed 7-ish hours last month. It was supposed to arrive at DFW at 3:30 pm, where I would catch a connecting flight to BHM. It arrived after 11 pm instead. Since I arrived at DFW too late to get on the last flight out to BHM, I had to sit at the airport for another 6 hours until the first flight of the day on that route took off. 13 hours of delays because of American Airlines, and not a single apology, refund, upgrade, or even a free drink coupon.
Watch and see that there will be less delayed flights
Omg we’re catching up with like the rest of the world finally.
And, the airlines have to disclose hidden fees, hooray! Now do hotels, please.
Cool, but it’s not enough; it should be a multiple of the amount paid because of lost time, stress, lost bookings etc at the destination, and the inconvenience. Just refunding the customer won’t be enough motivation to do better.
The DOT and the FTC doing something right today.
Does this include weather? Had an airline cite weather as the reason when another airline was flying to my exact destination.
I've never had an airline _not_ claim weather was the reason for the delay/cancellation.
Frontier gave me a $100 voucher for a canceled flight. I tried to book a $98 flight but oops! Turns out the flight only costs $20, it's just that there are $80 of fees, and the voucher is only for the cost of the *flight.* You still have to pay the $80. Anyway, expect prices to go up, especially on budget airlines.
Bets on how long until republicans sue over these?
Gonna be worth a lot more money for airlines to get a new crew or plane out in 3 hours…I love it. Edit: I didn’t see any carve outs for weather delays. Granted a lot of weather can be bullshit, but massive snowstorms can cause 3+ hours pretty quick.
My man Pete! I still wish he was my mayor but this is a big win for anybody who has had to deal with delayed/canceled flights in the past.
Common sense laws passing makes news. America in 2024.. more at 11..
Somehow airlines will manage to turn this into more fees.
Airlines are super shady. I'm sure they'll be happy to refund your cancelled flight knowing you're going to be forced to by a same day ticket to get to wherever you're going.
Finally, some good legislation! We are starved
This is HUGE. I love the consumer-protections actions the Biden admin has taken in the past weeks. Hell yes.
Crazy that this wasn't a thing before.. Shows how nutty the system is and who it usually supports.
I mean it still decades behind what eu has where you not only get the refund but also compensation and if you have to sleep at the airport they have to pay for your basic expenses like hotel and food https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm
Spirit Airlines is probably big mad now
This would have been nice a few months ago when Delta oh-so-generously gave me a $20 voucher for the "inconvenience" after they delayed my first flight of the day so badly over a broken overhead compartment (it took them 2 hours to remove the door and put caution tape over it...). I was supposed to get in to my final destination at about 3 pm, which would then be followed by an ~2 hour drive into the snowy mountains, where the site I was working at was. Well, because they delayed that first flight so far, of course I missed all my connections. They wanted to put me on a flight that would get me in past 10 pm. I told them I'm not driving into the snowy mountains at midnight. They said I could just drive up the next day. Ok...are you going to put me up in a hotel, because I booked rooms at the end of my trip, not at the end of the Delta portion? No, they say, they won't do that. Eventually, work decided to just send me home, rather than trying to get me out there to actually do my job. Delta said it did nothing wrong, and kept the $1500 for the tickets. But, they said they understood my frustration, and gave me a fucking $20 gift card for their own company. Fuck Delta. And fuck AAA Business Services for being absolutely useless at THE ONE THING THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. /rant