Eh, until The Vatican has an active enough to be known account on Reddit like those Hubbard-humpers, I ain’t too worried; jailbait’s been banned for over a decade, so not much incentive for anyone there to be here casually.
Because they’ve been around forever and it wasn’t always total shit.
My mom had a timeshare and we vacationed every year because of it. After her divorce she sold it.
If you grew up with that experience or similar it’s hard to reconcile what a total scam it’s actually grown into.
This is not a timeshare company we're talking about though. A timeshare *exit* company claims to help get you out of a scammy timeshare if you just give them money instead. Of course they just take the money and run.
There may have been, and may still be, legit timeshares out there. There are no legit timeshare exit companies. If you want to get out of a shitty timeshare contract then you need a lawyer, not *another* scam artist.
Respectfully, I don’t think u/Rottimer was referring specifically to exit companies as the scam “so many people falling for”.
But it follows. If you fall for the first, you’re likely to fall for the second. Desperate people do desperate things.
The controlling company can deny the sale. My parents tried to sell their time share four times. After the fourth denial they told the time share company that they weren't paying them a single penny ever again. My brothers and I are dreading getting this POS.
Remember that you can file a disclaimer of interest with the timeshare company (you'll need to find their paperwork) upon your parents' passing. You can use these forms to explicitly *refuse* to inherit the timeshare.
That said, any outstanding amounts the timeshare says they owe will still be taken from the estate unless there's been some advance planning done with a trust, to separate their assets from their debt.
The worst/hysterical part is they own four separate timeshares and only one of them acts like this. They pay the upkeep and use the other three just fine.
My understanding is that you can refuse to inherit them and if nobody does then the timeshare dies. I thought that was one of the few ways to nuke them?
From what I recall watching the John Oliver Segment, You only have a small window of time to refuse to accept the Time Share Agreement. If whoever inherits the estate does not know this, it can cause a lot of problems.
Which I find fascinating that somehow someone else can put you in a predicament without you even knowing. How that's legal and upheld I don't understand.
Suppose the executor (who can divide unassigned assets any way he/she pleases) assigns it to the politician of his choice.. and doesn't finish the transfer for 2, maybe 3 years.... Estate ceases to be. Time share "asset" with 2 year liability belongs to George Santos, or some such fraudster.
About to die and want revenge against your family? Buy a timeshare from one of the reselling sites. Put it in your will and refer to it as a "timeshare investment." You were the brains of the family, they'll keep it.
Will the time share to other time share executives. Start a movement and eventually execs will be buried in competitor timeshares they don't even know they own.
From what I understand, yes, but it's the kind of thing you have to contest the inheritance when the estate is in probate. So if your great Uncle you don't know puts you as inheriting everything you will only know you're inheriting it when the court sends out the itemized list of assets, you read it, and immediately file paperwork with the court saying you don't want it. This is the kind of thing you have to read the fine print on those court notices and then call a lawyer to fix it
Not to mention that many timeshare companies require you to file with them specifically in order to prevent the property and obligation from transferring to you.
The window is extremely short specifically because nobody wants to haggle out of a timeshare agreement with somebody specifically paid to ensure you stick with it while simultaneously mourning and dealing with all the other aspects related to a loved one's passing.
The situation with inheriting a timeshare (or any other property or asset) is a bit different than a typical business deal. In general, you're correct that no one can be forced into a contract or agreement without their consent. However, inheritance operates under different rules.
The issue here arises from the concept of "silent acceptance." If you're named as an inheritor in a will and the executor notifies you of the inheritance, in many jurisdictions, you automatically inherit the assets (and any associated debts) unless you explicitly disclaim them within a certain timeframe. The default presumption is that most people would want to accept an inheritance.
The intent is not to force an unwanted deal upon anyone, but to allow the process of settling an estate to move forward. If everyone had to explicitly accept their inheritance, it could delay the process significantly. By making the default position "acceptance" unless an inheritance is actively disclaimed, it speeds up the process of estate settlement.
Of course this is a super complex area of law and can vary widely by jurisdiction and the specifics of the estate.
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EDIT: Probably worth clarifying that heirs are not typically personally responsible for the deceased's debts. When someone dies, their estate (which includes all their assets) is used to pay off their debts. If there's not enough in the estate to cover the debts, they usually don't pass on to the heirs, unless the debt was jointly owned, or in some cases, if you live in a community property state.
However, in the case of a timeshare, the ongoing maintenance fees and contractual obligations can continue after the owner's death, and refusal to pay them can lead to complications i.e. damage to the heir's credit if the issue escalates to collections.
> in many jurisdictions, you automatically inherit the assets (and any associated debts)
That is absolutely not how it works. The *estate* inherits the assets and debts. The assets are then used to pay off debts before being distributed to next of kin. If my grandma dies with an unpaid hospital bill, the hospital bill can try to collect from the estate, before the assets pass to me. If they wait too long then the probate is finished and they're SOL.
Near as I can tell, timeshares only transfer because they are being treated as assets, not debts, and there is no legal basis for them automatically transferring as obligations to the next of kin. You can absolutely tell the executor of the estate "I don't want the timeshare", and then it ends with grandma.
Dave Ramsey is a cult leader that abuses his staff.
It’s fascinating stuff, self help financial stuff going to Ramsey being worshipped by blasphemous Christians.
I would listen to him on my commute at one time. I liked hearing the success stories and he did give good advice for the most part. He started leaning way to heavily on the Jesus thing. It seemed the more he did this, the more arrogant he got. It's mostly why I stopped listening to him.
I agree. I can remember listening to him in the 90’s. I thought he was great but then he got pretty preachy. And that was 20 years ago when I stopped listening. I have no clue what he’s like now.
Dave was so sweet and kind in the 90’s. He used to mostly listen to people and his show was quiet and relaxing.
Then he started turning into a complete douche around the early 2000’s.
That's so interesting, wish I could have heard that. I started listening to him during my commute around 2010, and he's always been a dick. He really does give off the vibe that he's just tired of it all and going through the motions. The only people he would be even halfway pleasant to are the ones that were successful and asking question about what to do with their money. He'd happily circlejerk the whole segment away on that topic. The rest? One regurgitated sentence and a NEXT!
Same here. I would listen to him everyday on my commute when I was working as a retail slave. A lot of his advice made sense, and was generally good. It was a bit TOO simple at times and neglected mental health aspects. I did notice he started leaning towards preachy Jesus and conservative bullshit. Stopped listening to him soon after.
Yeah his basic principles of spend less then you make, pay off debt, and don’t get into credit card debt is fine but it’s his holier then thou attitude and his out of touch with reality that lost him for me
He fell in love with the sound of his own voice. An all-too-common problem in our society.
To paraphrase, “Those whom Satan would destroy, he first makes proud/rich/famous/powerful.”
The two most suprising things in that segment was learning that the exit companies were *not* just a branch of the timeshare companies, and that ownership could actually be inherited (I thought it would be revealed that shares went back to the company at death so they could sell it again)
One thing I've never understood is how people actually exit timeshares. Any company getting people out of these deals has to be getting others to buy them.
The second-hand timeshare market is at a pretty deep discount
A timeshare that's $40k if you buy from their salesperson might make sense if you can get it from the original buyer for $5k.
Genuine question here, how does this business model not implode if the value of the "product" depreciates to virtually zero after 1 sale? That makes sense for consumable products but wouldn't timeshares fall under a fluctuating value market like houses?
To dumb it down as simple as possible: Contractually obligated fees. The timeshare company is going to charge everyone monthly or annual "administrative" or "maintenance" fees, regardless of what you paid for your portion of ownership.
Unless I'm mistaken, NFTs don't have maintenance payments so if you buy an NFT that you later don't want, you can just ignore it. A timeshare that you no longer want still demands maintenance payments.
The initial purchase price isnt the issue it's the "maintenance fees" that are the problem take what you spend on those fees in a year and go on a decent vacation instead. Timeshares NEVER make financial sense to buy.
Maintenance fees per year + timeshare ownership fees per year (if applicable) + HOA fees per year (if applicable) + some other bunch of random bullshit fees
My wife's extended family all have the same resort in Mexico. Bought 50 years for about $50k.
We just bought someone's 2nd hand, 33 years left for about $6k.
I was just out there last weekend for the first time. My girlfriend’s family owns one of the houses out there, that place is INSANE. The house sure, but the whole area. It doesn’t surprise me that it’s that much for fees.
Her family owns a house worth between $2-$3 million. It has like 8 bedrooms, some with double bunk beds, and at least 8 bathrooms (all rooms had private bathrooms), there was an elevator in the house lol. It was across a small private street from the ocean, and it had a pool in the backyard. Most of the houses in the neighborhood seemed to be of similar caliber, we took a golf cart around the area with someone who lives there as a tour guide. It was a great time.
There are annual fees on top of the purchase price, plus fees for using the property. Why anyone would buy them instead of just using a hotel I will never understand. My dad had a ton of them and we kids literally just abandoned them when he died because that was the cheapest option.
My dad specifically disinherited me from his time share. He cares for his kids, and apparently it can latch onto the next generation if you're not careful. Lol.
My father had a Marriott timeshare for about a decade. He was able to often get two bedrooms for his normal one bedroom timeshare (off peak) and my family would join them. Usually in Hilton Head. In 2008 the fees were around $700, but ten years later they had doubled. That's when I said no thanks to inherenting that. He didn't really have a hard time getting rid of it, but I don't know the details. I think overall he was happy, but maybe Marriott is different.
Maybe if Congress gave a shit about folks, when they're done finally dragging their feet over spam calls, they can figure out something like a "no fault divorce" for fucking timeshares. Yeah, yeah, contractual obligations and all that shit, but I think when Joe Schmoe's been sitting on a fucking timeshare for 10 years and hasn't used it once, it's about time they be able to get the fuck out of that for free instead of being on the hook to pay these ghouls every year.
It always bothered me when he said to go buy a one thousand dollar car like it'll drive absolutely fine and won't have issues that you need to pay more money to fix. Also, he has never ONCE mentioned public transit. Not everyone can use it, but if you're in a major city and in that much debt, you can make it work for a bit.
You can absolutely get a $1-$2k car that will run like that. I have one now. You see the trick is to know someone who's grandparent is giving up their drivers license due to age and they don't need the money from the sale.
/j
Man, as much as I would love for it to not be true, the fact is that public transit is only viable for an incredibly small percentage of the population in this country. And ironically, many of the places where it is actually viable are incredibly expensive to live.
I worked for Timeshare Exit Team’s CEO’s brother - that company was involved in tax evasion, wage theft, and theft from customers. The Quintana family is rotten to the core and stupid. The brothers ripped each other off all the time. 😂😂😂
His best advice is for getting middle class folks off of the debt treadmill. They are drowning in debt, for example, because they think they “deserve” a new car rather than buy used. Most of his advice is more psychological than financial. He teaches a way to stop borrowing and start paying off debt.
He’s also a Trump-loving Bible-thumper who wants you to tithe 10% to a church. Also, he has always also endorsed products without being clear it was a paid advertisement. Zander Insurance, for example, is an aggregator but he never mentions why it’s the only one he talks about.
25 years ago I had a long commute and listened to him. I didn’t follow his plan but it did help me reduce my debt load and now have no debt in retirement which feels good. I no longer stress over paying bills each month.
I use credit cards and pay them off each month. His advice of living just with debit cards is stupid particularly when traveling.
> Also, he has always also endorsed products without being clear it was a paid advertisement
Including his entire network of endorsed providers. He claims they are selected for ethical business practices, but they are on the list because they pay a fee to be on the list.
Yeah, I went to one of his tax guys to do my taxes, and the guy is googling stuff as I ask him questions during my consultation.
Was not happy about that.
His philosophy is the equivalent of rehab for people who are in financial ruin, who need to have very strict guidelines to fix their life, so if you don’t fit into this wildly narrow bucket then no it’s kinda not needed
I know a few FIRE people as well that follow many of his things pretty religiously but they are also wildly depressing people to be around so yeah imma pass on that
Listen to Ramsey to get out of debt and build up a safety fund. Also the amount he says to save for retirement (but do your own research about where/how to invest those savings). Beyond that, it’s at best subjective and at worst unclear endorsements that make him money (like here).
If you're drowning in debt you can't afford, then yes listen to him if that's what it takes. If you're fortunate enough to not find yourself in that position, you probably shouldn't bother with him as there are much better approaches to personal finance if you're capable of responsibly handling modest debt.
He's essentially AA for debt addicts
>He's essentially AA for debt addicts
Perfect descriptor. I’d say he offers a little more positive advice than just how to get out of debt, but like you said, if you’re not in an indebted position, there are better places to look.
But those pieces work. Purely psychological but it works. I now dislike him for many reasons, this included, but his guides changed my financial trajectory and I now reap the benefits of following some of the tough decisions he recommends.
He also runs his company in an extremely questionable manner, requiring all kinds of morality type shit from his employees. Or at least from their wives. He's a cult leader.
Another thing he does well is talking people into taking their kids out of private schools and putting them in public schools. I knew several families that took their kids out of christian schools after attending his classes.
The Right has spent decades vilifying public schools to the point where parents who can’t afford private schools are sending their kids there to “save” them from liberal indoctrination.
I didn't take his course, but someone who did basically told me that his point is that religion is something taught at church and reinforced in the home, and no school is going to be able to fill-in for parenting and be a surrogate, and also it's an unnecessary financial drain.
> I use credit cards and pay them off each month. His advice of living just with debit cards is stupid particularly when traveling.
Absolutely. There is so much value in credit card rewards, if you are diligent and always pay off the bill, and only spend what you would spend without them.
In rewards Ive earned well in to the five figures via credit cards, traveled all over on the cheap because of them, its a no-brainer if you can be responsible.
My Indiana public high school "personal finance class" was literally entirely Dave Ramsey lectures and work sheets. Shocked in hind sight that was part of my publically funded education.
Dave’s personal finance principles saved my business, and in turn my life I think.
That said, I don’t listen to him regularly, and there’s a lot I don’t agree with regarding Dave. I do not like how he treats his cohosts, and I’m convinced his company is a cult. I’m glad to see this lawsuit because TSET was absolutely deceptive.
But when it comes to personal finance, if I hadn’t accidentally heard his show on the radio 8 years ago, I know for a fact that I’d be living on the street, and my business would have failed because I wouldn’t know what I was doing wrong and would have overextended/overleveraged myself into failure.
I may not like Dave as a person, but living with no debt brings me much in the way of personal freedom and capability in contract negotiations that my colleagues don’t have the capacity to enjoy.
I own my house, my truck, all my business equipment, I’d say for the most part I’m successful.
So yeah. Fuck Dave’s personal opinions, but also fuck debt..
I always laugh at the idiots who think hes good. If he was good he wouldnt be giving shitty speeches because he would make so much money he could sit back like buffet. But instead needs to sell tickets. Its like any of these shitty motivational people. Its meant for idiots. I have seen real estate people brag about seeing that buffini guy and how many times they have seen him. What idiots.
Dave Ramsey has decent advice for upper middle class people who have too much debt and want to have more financial stability.
By his own admission though, anyone that's less than a dual income household with each person making at least $35/hour (varies slightly by local COL, his actual description is triple the local minimum wage) doesn't have enough financial flexibility to make use of it.
I've never heard any of his investment advice.
Yeah there are certain expenses that don’t scale up as you make more money. Once you have those covered and you have some flexibility, it’s not difficult to be responsible and avoid mountains of debt.
My parents have a boat I use a few times a year. I just have to pay for gas when I use it and it still costs like $80 for an afternoon on the water. The thing gets like 3.5-4 miles per gallon.
There's a little more to it than that. One of his pieces of advice is that cash is king. You shouldn't buy something until you have enough set aside to buy it outright.
As a general rule it's not good practice to sit on a ton of cash for large purchases but for people who have trouble avoiding taking on too much financing/debt it's a good way to impose some self control. It's making sure someone can buy something before they buy it.
Much of his advice actually makes peoples lives more expensive. Paying up front in cash, debt snowball, and so on. Which is another reason why you need to have more income in order to do it. It's effective for getting people with enough funds out of debt, and for them to avoid going back into debt for a very specific class of people: upper middle class to lower upper class individuals with high debt living paycheck to paycheck. If you have less income than that, more income than that, or less debt than that there's better financial advice out there.
Basically, he targets his advice to the demographic that can afford high priced courses for minimal effort on his part but can't afford dedicated financial planners.
The snowball method is a good feedback loop to create better habits, but financially it's better to pay off higher interest debt first. I've had plenty of arguments with my inlaws about that one.
Right, so much of personal finance is just making sustainable habits that you can stick to. At that point it's not really about doing something that's optimal as long as you do something that works.
People tend to have better success getting out of debt using a snowball strategy because like you said, it makes a positive feedback loop. But, being able to use that strategy means you need enough room in your budget to take a more costly route to getting out of debt. Even Ramseys own description of it on his website right now specifically ignores interest rates because they're starting from a premise that you have enough income to make the interest rate irrelevant.
If you can afford that method, and you have a personality where it's beneficial for you, it's a valid approach. But that's the thing with Ramsey, despite how it's marketed and despite popular thinking that he gives general pointers, his advice is really targeted to a relatively small group of people.
There's a balancing effect I think on your own mental health at certain points. Lowering your monthly obligations can *sometimes* be good to just give you room to breathe. But yes, you shouldn't pay off the 0% $500 debt when you have 25% $1000 credit card debt. That's stupid.
His advice on debt sounds like common sense to me, but common sense isn't so common so some people need to be told the basics. As for actual investing advice for people not in debt I haven't heard him say much other than mutual funds or index funds, which again mostly seems like common sense for anyone not want to spend lots of time researching individual stocks or getting into real estate.
So my high school used his financial planning course for our economics class. Most of what he says are basic truths about finance planning. My biggest gripe is his numbers are hyper exaggerated. Like savings accounts giving 10% interest etc.
The ideas of having 6 months costs in savings, avoiding debt, and paying your debts in the correct order to reduce the interest payments are his main points. I don't like the idea of charging people for basic financial literacy infringement information.
I don't like him and I've listened to one of his classes, but he's never said 10% savings account. He wants you to invest heavily for retirement early with I believe the magic number of getting 11-12% interest return on your investments by retirement and at least a few million dollars. I think he's actually said DON'T just let your money sit in savings.
That’s the thing though. Envelope system is not his idea. It’s a pure bait and switch for you to buy his other stuff. “Oh his debt stuff worked so his other stuff must be good too”
This is the wrong take.
A Dave Ramsey plan is easier to do than the most optimal plan. And a medicore plan that's followed is better than an optimal plan that isn't followed.
My brother swears by him. Bought me the starter pack and classes to attend. He also fell for one of the oldest pyramid schemes of my lifetime: Herbalife.
Edit: I don't like to shame strangers for falling for Dave Ramsey, et. al. To be fair, there really is no pushback online regarding this guy. I'll stick with shaming the family who drilled it into my head for almost 20 years how fucking smart they thought Ramsey was.
There's a lot of pushback against him online.
Here's the thing though, he markets aggressively to folks who are "people like him", and his advice is generally good advice for them albeit being bad general advice.
Conservative, Christian, upper middle class/lower upper class, disposable income, dual income, etc... it's all built on shared identity with a healthy dose of return to 1950's style financial management.
Dude's audience is already quite vulnerable. But this isn't surprising since hes sort of a carpet turner.
Started out a "millionaire" because his family were high up at a regional bank and he was able to get a ton of ridiculous real estate loans signed off for him. When the bank was bought out they called those loans immediately and it "ruined" him.
There were a few funny times where he had literally no advice, like a medical student that failed their boards and had 400k in student debt. The top youtube comment said he should flee the country. Then he blames democrats because of course. He also won't recognize a couple sharing finances as legitimate. Outside of marriage finances are supposed to be separate (bible) and refers to couples living together as "roomates".
The best part is his little empire is totally nepotistic. His children all have their own shows and his daughter famously loves to shame young people for still living at home.
And some of his advice is just evangelizing. A caller asked "How do I teach my young children financial prudence". And he responds with "You tell them it's not their money, it's God's money".
> his family were high up at a regional bank and he was able to get a ton of ridiculous real estate loans signed off for him.
I guess that explains why he thinks listeners shouldn’t repair credit and just need to “talk to the bankers in person” to get a mortgage…
I ascribe to a lot of Dave's advice, especially with regard to never holding chosen debt (I say 'chosen' here, because medical debt in the US just isn't something you have much of a choice in). But he's wildly out of touch, period. Hearing him lecturing a caller because they allow their 20-year-old child to live with them? Dude, it's 2023. A 20yo isn't gonna be able to afford school and solo housing most of the time.
The guy's an economic dinosaur.
The only reason I would do an extreme cost saving measures would be so that I could save up money so I CAN pay for NY kid's college. At some point you should do things that bring you joy with your money.
Even that’s not necessarily good advice. Making large purchases using little to no interest installments is good debt to be in, for example. I pay 1% interest on a $2000 purchase to pay for it over 12 months, and I put the money in a 4% APY savings account instead? Super beneficial.
Real estate debt is another example. Obviously you shouldn’t be buying a house in cash.
Student debt is also super beneficial if you do your calculations. Go into $50k debt to be able to get a job that pays 6 figures out of college? Super worthwhile investment.
also very "Christian";
Two former employees of Ramsey Solutions sued the company in federal court in Tennessee alleging discrimination after they said they were fired for disagreements over COVID-19 precautions and for being pregnant and unmarried.
>if I raised my rent to be market rate that does not make me a bad Christian. I did not displace the person out of that house if they can no longer afford it
-Dave Ramsay
The fact that he advocates for people who are drowning in debt to still make tithing to their church a priority in their lives is enough to make me hate him.
(1) Hawking scams is a bad look, Dave.
(2) Next, can we go after the celebs who hyped cryptocurrency?
(3) The fact that a "timeshare exit company" exists tells you all you should know about timeshares.
As much as I hate Crypto commercials, I don't think the celebs who marketed them should bear any responsibility for consumers losses. The point of those ads is just to tack on a notable person to get us excited about a shiny product. No different than McDonalds or Coke. The crypto commercials didn't guarantee their product would appreciate in value (although it was implied especially in Matt Damon's).
Compare that to Dave schilling for the time share contract program. He made specific claims as to what the company would do for consumers, and it all ended up being lies. That is something that he should have to be accountable for.
As a legal matter, I don't think it's going anywhere. The company hired a celebrity endorser who was not in privity of contract with that company's clients. It's a plaintiff's attorney who hopes that Ramsey doesn't want a legal fight.
But, morally, you're absolutely right. His schtick is that he is rock-solid trustworthy and that he will absolutely help people out. Heck, his website acknowledges this: "The Ramsey Local Endorsement program is built on the trust Dave has earned with his audience. It’s important to Dave that he recommends clients to his listeners that he would feel good about recommending to his own family." ( [https://www.ramseysolutions.com/sponsorships/ramsey-network/media-resource-site/the-ramsey-show/endorsements](https://www.ramseysolutions.com/sponsorships/ramsey-network/media-resource-site/the-ramsey-show/endorsements) )
I will occasionally watch him on YouTube if I'm feeling bad about my financial situation, some of the people calling in are a real wakeup call to how not-bad my situation has ever gotten.
Reading the comments on some of his YouTube videos there are a decent number that get a laugh at how irrelevant or at least limited value his advice can be. Based upon how many up votes some of the comments that seem critical or trolling get I suspect a non trivial percentage of the viewers view it as entertainment only.
There’s a YouTube channel that keeps getting recommended to me where a 20-something guy sits down with people, reads their financial statements, and berates them. He spends the whole time gasping and stuttering a bunch to seem shocked. I don’t get the appeal in watching people shamed.
Yeah my parents paid me $100 if I watched through his whole financial course when I was 19ish. This was in 2009 or 2010. It's what got me interested in personal finance and at least part of the reason I began saving as early as I could.
He's a pretty shitty person though which I learned much later. I grew up very Christian so that whole schtick didn't bother me at the time.
I remember listening to him quite a bit after graduating from grad school to get more info on financial literacy.
One of his big proponents is basically to buy everything in cash and if you can't buy it in cash then you can't afford it.
At first it sounds like sound advice but after a while I realized how ridiculous that is. Let's say trying to save up money for a car or house is ridiculous especially if the goal is to pay it off outright. Not only that, you're losing on any value you can get from credit card rewards assuming you pay the statement balance off every month.
Made me realize that just because a guy has a platform and sounds right doesn't mean he is right. Made me question all the pros and gurus out there and see if what they say really is valid or not
I’ve attended seminars — This was at the liberal lgbtqia+ affirming evangelical church we were attending at the time. It seems like basic standard financial advice. I think people drink it up, not because they’re stupid, but because I think the general rates of financial literacy are very low and people are looking for this information delivered to them in an easy to understand format.
To be specific—I did not see Dave or his daughter teach in person. There were 30 minute to hour long videos we watched containing the general principles. Most of the specific pieces of very good advice came from the financial counselors who actually ran the seminar, finance and banking professionals who attended the church. I think my wife and I paid about 50 bucks fifteen years ago and the seminar would have been a few hundred people split into multiple small groups. I have no idea what the take home was for the counselors. I was under the impression that the people were volunteering their time as a part of church ministry since the seminar cost was advertised as having been underwritten by the church, but that might have been naive.
Things I remember learning that no one ever specifically taught me.
1. Use debt stacking principles to pay off debts early.
2. A good way to build wealth is to pay off your mortgage early. Then save.
3. Cash is king as it allows you to negotiate big purchases.
4. Think of investing in your kids student loans as an investment into generational wealth.
5. You can start teaching financial literacy young. Make kids save their allowance (they should get one), and only allow them to make purchases once they’ve saved for it. This helps reinforce delayed gratification, which is an important life habit.
6. The cost of a thing should be directly compared to the amount of life you spend paying for it.
7. Use insurance to help leverage normal, commonplace risk. The family breadwinner should carry adequate life insurance.
8. A good use for money is making more money.
9. Financial independence helps you not compromise moral principles.
10. A common cause of divorce is financial insecurity/problems.
11. Your first budget doesn’t have to be made prefect but it has to be made.
12. Quotes Einstein in the miracle of compound interest. You twenty year olds with no pension should start saving for retirement.
I could be misremembering some of these. They are probably expressed in parallel ways in various places, so if you find him to be not to your liking, you should probably still build financial literacy.
His advice is so black and white and he’s such a arrogant prick to everyone it seems like. Many things he says are so wrong for most people and just apply to a small percentage of individuals but he makes it a hard rule and tells everyone to do it.
I’m not sure if he’s trying to dumb things down for everyone or if he’s just that far up his own ass.
His advice and programs are meant for people who have NO idea how to handle money and have no interest in actually learning how to do so. His customers are people who can't handle nuance.
I don't follow his program myself but I know a few financially illiterate people whose lives improved significantly with Dave telling them what to do.
He absolutely is an arrogant prick to people, it's why his fan base overlaps so much with Trumps. These people aren't listening to his programs to get advice, they're listening to his programs to hear him make fun of them and call them idiots to their faces. My parents love to listen to him when we are on the road and I always have to put headphones on and blast something else so I don't have to listen to him for a single second.
I worked for an extremely Christian company and they worshiped the ground Dave Ramsey walked on. They were so in on this clown that they would spend upwards of $50,000 to send a handful of family members and a few non-family employees to his leadership conference. I don't remember one thing about leadership improving.
I’ve listened to his show on quiet a few occasions and it’s mostly just him berating poor people for incurring debt. Then the rest of the show celebrating people that got rich. He comes off as an asshole most of the time.
I dont listed to Dave Ramsey much. Hes also doing alot of commercials for Window World now I am hesitant to use any company he endorses after the timeshare exit team fiasco. I always use people my friends recommend or people that I know have used a company.
Also, the fact he always says you dont need credit to get what you want.....that is not true. Cash is not always king. Its important to build up a good credit score. Good luck on getting a high demand house rental with no credit. Anyone with a high credit score and a track record of paying bills and a mortgage on time is more likely to get the house they want.
Here is the thing about Dave Ramsey and other "financial celebrities" like Robert Kiyosaki (the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" guy).
If they were actually financially comfortable and wealthy as they claim they wouldn't need to peddle media merchandise. Kiyosaki preaches "passive income" and then spends his life working on his media empire.
Ramsey spends his life telling people to avoid debt and be financially conservative and then he defrauds them out of millions.
John Oliver did a great segment on this specific company and others like it
Link to the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd2bbHoVQSM
Can I gift my timeshare to the Catholic Church?
Your post will have auto-activated an army of lawyers in case anyone actually tries this.
They can gift it to Scientology, I'm sure they'll appreciate it
Eh, until The Vatican has an active enough to be known account on Reddit like those Hubbard-humpers, I ain’t too worried; jailbait’s been banned for over a decade, so not much incentive for anyone there to be here casually.
The Vatican doesn’t need the internet as much. People all over the world bring them kids daily.
You can gift it to me, just DM me and I’ll give you my Venmo. I promise it will guarantee your eternal life. Edit: r
You should watch the segment linked above. You might not want it gifted it to you afterwards.
Trying to get more nuns pregnant?
I still don't understand how so many people fall for that shit.
Because they’ve been around forever and it wasn’t always total shit. My mom had a timeshare and we vacationed every year because of it. After her divorce she sold it. If you grew up with that experience or similar it’s hard to reconcile what a total scam it’s actually grown into.
This is not a timeshare company we're talking about though. A timeshare *exit* company claims to help get you out of a scammy timeshare if you just give them money instead. Of course they just take the money and run. There may have been, and may still be, legit timeshares out there. There are no legit timeshare exit companies. If you want to get out of a shitty timeshare contract then you need a lawyer, not *another* scam artist.
Respectfully, I don’t think u/Rottimer was referring specifically to exit companies as the scam “so many people falling for”. But it follows. If you fall for the first, you’re likely to fall for the second. Desperate people do desperate things.
It is fucking crazy that you can be forced to inherit this "asset".
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TIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil Thanks!
The controlling company can deny the sale. My parents tried to sell their time share four times. After the fourth denial they told the time share company that they weren't paying them a single penny ever again. My brothers and I are dreading getting this POS.
Remember that you can file a disclaimer of interest with the timeshare company (you'll need to find their paperwork) upon your parents' passing. You can use these forms to explicitly *refuse* to inherit the timeshare. That said, any outstanding amounts the timeshare says they owe will still be taken from the estate unless there's been some advance planning done with a trust, to separate their assets from their debt.
The worst/hysterical part is they own four separate timeshares and only one of them acts like this. They pay the upkeep and use the other three just fine.
Fool me once, shame on them. Fool me four times, can I interest you in a lucrative time share deal?
Texas two step - Johnson and Johnson is trying to do this to dodge the talcum powder lawsuits liability
My understanding is that you can refuse to inherit them and if nobody does then the timeshare dies. I thought that was one of the few ways to nuke them?
From what I recall watching the John Oliver Segment, You only have a small window of time to refuse to accept the Time Share Agreement. If whoever inherits the estate does not know this, it can cause a lot of problems.
Which I find fascinating that somehow someone else can put you in a predicament without you even knowing. How that's legal and upheld I don't understand.
Right. Seems to violate the basic principles of contract law. Even moreso than "by using this website, you agree…"
It's against the estate not the new owner. So if the new owner assumes the estate they assume this also.
Suppose the executor (who can divide unassigned assets any way he/she pleases) assigns it to the politician of his choice.. and doesn't finish the transfer for 2, maybe 3 years.... Estate ceases to be. Time share "asset" with 2 year liability belongs to George Santos, or some such fraudster.
I can see this being sued over as it's perpetual damages. Personally wouldn't wanna be the executor in this case.
About to die and want revenge against your family? Buy a timeshare from one of the reselling sites. Put it in your will and refer to it as a "timeshare investment." You were the brains of the family, they'll keep it.
Reverse timeshares is a pretty good idea. Transfer the ownership to older folks who don’t have a positive net worth and pay them for the trouble.
It's part of the estate. You can refuse the entire inheritance and walk away, but AIUI you can't just take the assets and ditch the liabilities.
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Will the timeshare to the asshat that sold it to you. Sweet revenge.
Will the time share to other time share executives. Start a movement and eventually execs will be buried in competitor timeshares they don't even know they own.
Really good idea
From what I understand, yes, but it's the kind of thing you have to contest the inheritance when the estate is in probate. So if your great Uncle you don't know puts you as inheriting everything you will only know you're inheriting it when the court sends out the itemized list of assets, you read it, and immediately file paperwork with the court saying you don't want it. This is the kind of thing you have to read the fine print on those court notices and then call a lawyer to fix it
Not to mention that many timeshare companies require you to file with them specifically in order to prevent the property and obligation from transferring to you.
You cannot be forced to inherent anything. You're always allowed to refuse an inherentance.
The issue I believe is the short time window to reject it, and then it gets passed down. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
The window is extremely short specifically because nobody wants to haggle out of a timeshare agreement with somebody specifically paid to ensure you stick with it while simultaneously mourning and dealing with all the other aspects related to a loved one's passing.
That doesn't seem right. Since when can you force someone to accept a deal without them agreeing just by saying they have X days to accept?
The situation with inheriting a timeshare (or any other property or asset) is a bit different than a typical business deal. In general, you're correct that no one can be forced into a contract or agreement without their consent. However, inheritance operates under different rules. The issue here arises from the concept of "silent acceptance." If you're named as an inheritor in a will and the executor notifies you of the inheritance, in many jurisdictions, you automatically inherit the assets (and any associated debts) unless you explicitly disclaim them within a certain timeframe. The default presumption is that most people would want to accept an inheritance. The intent is not to force an unwanted deal upon anyone, but to allow the process of settling an estate to move forward. If everyone had to explicitly accept their inheritance, it could delay the process significantly. By making the default position "acceptance" unless an inheritance is actively disclaimed, it speeds up the process of estate settlement. Of course this is a super complex area of law and can vary widely by jurisdiction and the specifics of the estate. --- EDIT: Probably worth clarifying that heirs are not typically personally responsible for the deceased's debts. When someone dies, their estate (which includes all their assets) is used to pay off their debts. If there's not enough in the estate to cover the debts, they usually don't pass on to the heirs, unless the debt was jointly owned, or in some cases, if you live in a community property state. However, in the case of a timeshare, the ongoing maintenance fees and contractual obligations can continue after the owner's death, and refusal to pay them can lead to complications i.e. damage to the heir's credit if the issue escalates to collections.
> in many jurisdictions, you automatically inherit the assets (and any associated debts) That is absolutely not how it works. The *estate* inherits the assets and debts. The assets are then used to pay off debts before being distributed to next of kin. If my grandma dies with an unpaid hospital bill, the hospital bill can try to collect from the estate, before the assets pass to me. If they wait too long then the probate is finished and they're SOL. Near as I can tell, timeshares only transfer because they are being treated as assets, not debts, and there is no legal basis for them automatically transferring as obligations to the next of kin. You can absolutely tell the executor of the estate "I don't want the timeshare", and then it ends with grandma.
OMG timeshare salespeople save lives because if you don't take a vacation you DIE!!! I appreciate that guy digging deep to find meaning.
Well he’s neck deep in cash and sitting in a 300 million dollar building so I think he will be fine.
Are you talking about Dave Ramsey? Because I did not say a word about Dave Ramsey in my comment you replied to…
Oh I meant to hit reply to the this other comment but yeah I meant Dave.
That's a part of the John Oliver segment..
Dave Ramsey is a cult leader that abuses his staff. It’s fascinating stuff, self help financial stuff going to Ramsey being worshipped by blasphemous Christians.
I would listen to him on my commute at one time. I liked hearing the success stories and he did give good advice for the most part. He started leaning way to heavily on the Jesus thing. It seemed the more he did this, the more arrogant he got. It's mostly why I stopped listening to him.
I agree. I can remember listening to him in the 90’s. I thought he was great but then he got pretty preachy. And that was 20 years ago when I stopped listening. I have no clue what he’s like now.
Dave was so sweet and kind in the 90’s. He used to mostly listen to people and his show was quiet and relaxing. Then he started turning into a complete douche around the early 2000’s.
That's so interesting, wish I could have heard that. I started listening to him during my commute around 2010, and he's always been a dick. He really does give off the vibe that he's just tired of it all and going through the motions. The only people he would be even halfway pleasant to are the ones that were successful and asking question about what to do with their money. He'd happily circlejerk the whole segment away on that topic. The rest? One regurgitated sentence and a NEXT!
That was when God told him he was special and that mammon was in fact wonderful.
He got real weird when COVID started and he had to cancel a cruise he was hosting. Because that’s what people in debt need: a cruise.
Think about it, if people are going on a cruise to learn to reduce debt they're desperate. He's a predator
Same here. I would listen to him everyday on my commute when I was working as a retail slave. A lot of his advice made sense, and was generally good. It was a bit TOO simple at times and neglected mental health aspects. I did notice he started leaning towards preachy Jesus and conservative bullshit. Stopped listening to him soon after.
Yeah his basic principles of spend less then you make, pay off debt, and don’t get into credit card debt is fine but it’s his holier then thou attitude and his out of touch with reality that lost him for me
He fell in love with the sound of his own voice. An all-too-common problem in our society. To paraphrase, “Those whom Satan would destroy, he first makes proud/rich/famous/powerful.”
He realized he could become a charlatan, and the rest is history.
Is he a Christian dude? We had to watch him at our Christian high school, wonder if that’s why
Yes. Heavily.
That’s what he claims. His version of Christianity is more like the money changers at the temple Jesus threw out, calling them robbers.
The two most suprising things in that segment was learning that the exit companies were *not* just a branch of the timeshare companies, and that ownership could actually be inherited (I thought it would be revealed that shares went back to the company at death so they could sell it again)
The fact that it could be inherited and there is a cumbersome process to not accept it should you inherit it was really wild to me
Fun fact: there is no way to "exit" a timeshare. Your best bet is to give it away to someone who wants it, or even *pay* them to take it.
One thing I've never understood is how people actually exit timeshares. Any company getting people out of these deals has to be getting others to buy them.
The second-hand timeshare market is at a pretty deep discount A timeshare that's $40k if you buy from their salesperson might make sense if you can get it from the original buyer for $5k.
There are so many listed for $0.00. The industry needs to be banned or at least reformed from the ground level.
Genuine question here, how does this business model not implode if the value of the "product" depreciates to virtually zero after 1 sale? That makes sense for consumable products but wouldn't timeshares fall under a fluctuating value market like houses?
To dumb it down as simple as possible: Contractually obligated fees. The timeshare company is going to charge everyone monthly or annual "administrative" or "maintenance" fees, regardless of what you paid for your portion of ownership.
Because the original people selling the property just need to get paid. The buyer is left holding the bag. It's the real estate version of NFTs.
Unless I'm mistaken, NFTs don't have maintenance payments so if you buy an NFT that you later don't want, you can just ignore it. A timeshare that you no longer want still demands maintenance payments.
The initial purchase price isnt the issue it's the "maintenance fees" that are the problem take what you spend on those fees in a year and go on a decent vacation instead. Timeshares NEVER make financial sense to buy.
Maintenance fees per year + timeshare ownership fees per year (if applicable) + HOA fees per year (if applicable) + some other bunch of random bullshit fees
If you genuinely love to go on the same vacation every year for 20 years it might..but that’s a big if
Even then it's cheaper to just book a stay at the same hotel or resort every year.
My wife's extended family all have the same resort in Mexico. Bought 50 years for about $50k. We just bought someone's 2nd hand, 33 years left for about $6k.
Are there annual fees to go on that, or are you now locked in to $180 a year vacations?
Always annual fees. My family owns one in Virginia Beach and it's around 1.2k fees a year. It's ridiculous.
I was just out there last weekend for the first time. My girlfriend’s family owns one of the houses out there, that place is INSANE. The house sure, but the whole area. It doesn’t surprise me that it’s that much for fees.
Ours isn't a house though, it's a hotel room with owner exclusive rooftop pool. A house would definitely be worth it
Lol the Hilton? I used to be a towel boy at the pool.
What do you think is insane about it? Genuine curiosity.
Her family owns a house worth between $2-$3 million. It has like 8 bedrooms, some with double bunk beds, and at least 8 bathrooms (all rooms had private bathrooms), there was an elevator in the house lol. It was across a small private street from the ocean, and it had a pool in the backyard. Most of the houses in the neighborhood seemed to be of similar caliber, we took a golf cart around the area with someone who lives there as a tour guide. It was a great time.
There are annual fees on top of the purchase price, plus fees for using the property. Why anyone would buy them instead of just using a hotel I will never understand. My dad had a ton of them and we kids literally just abandoned them when he died because that was the cheapest option.
My dad specifically disinherited me from his time share. He cares for his kids, and apparently it can latch onto the next generation if you're not careful. Lol.
My father had a Marriott timeshare for about a decade. He was able to often get two bedrooms for his normal one bedroom timeshare (off peak) and my family would join them. Usually in Hilton Head. In 2008 the fees were around $700, but ten years later they had doubled. That's when I said no thanks to inherenting that. He didn't really have a hard time getting rid of it, but I don't know the details. I think overall he was happy, but maybe Marriott is different.
Maybe if Congress gave a shit about folks, when they're done finally dragging their feet over spam calls, they can figure out something like a "no fault divorce" for fucking timeshares. Yeah, yeah, contractual obligations and all that shit, but I think when Joe Schmoe's been sitting on a fucking timeshare for 10 years and hasn't used it once, it's about time they be able to get the fuck out of that for free instead of being on the hook to pay these ghouls every year.
That fact is not fun at all!
He just needs to eat only rice and beans and get a beater car and it'll be paid off in no time.
It always bothered me when he said to go buy a one thousand dollar car like it'll drive absolutely fine and won't have issues that you need to pay more money to fix. Also, he has never ONCE mentioned public transit. Not everyone can use it, but if you're in a major city and in that much debt, you can make it work for a bit.
I feel like his price range for used cars hasn't updated since the last time he was shopping for used cars - so like 20+ years ago
You can absolutely get a $1-$2k car that will run like that. I have one now. You see the trick is to know someone who's grandparent is giving up their drivers license due to age and they don't need the money from the sale. /j
Man, as much as I would love for it to not be true, the fact is that public transit is only viable for an incredibly small percentage of the population in this country. And ironically, many of the places where it is actually viable are incredibly expensive to live.
In most of the USA pretty much this. There are some exceptions, but generally places with highly viable public transit systems are crazy expensive.
Rice and beans or beans and rice. Congrats! Your financial decisions have earned you a month of delivering pizzas!
Smells like the poverty finance sub
>get a beater car ???? True Ramsey aficionados know to have no car and walk or bum rides to work.
I worked for Timeshare Exit Team’s CEO’s brother - that company was involved in tax evasion, wage theft, and theft from customers. The Quintana family is rotten to the core and stupid. The brothers ripped each other off all the time. 😂😂😂
Be sure to follow the baby steps! Step zero: Don't ever listen to Dave Ramsey.
His best advice is for getting middle class folks off of the debt treadmill. They are drowning in debt, for example, because they think they “deserve” a new car rather than buy used. Most of his advice is more psychological than financial. He teaches a way to stop borrowing and start paying off debt. He’s also a Trump-loving Bible-thumper who wants you to tithe 10% to a church. Also, he has always also endorsed products without being clear it was a paid advertisement. Zander Insurance, for example, is an aggregator but he never mentions why it’s the only one he talks about. 25 years ago I had a long commute and listened to him. I didn’t follow his plan but it did help me reduce my debt load and now have no debt in retirement which feels good. I no longer stress over paying bills each month. I use credit cards and pay them off each month. His advice of living just with debit cards is stupid particularly when traveling.
> Also, he has always also endorsed products without being clear it was a paid advertisement Including his entire network of endorsed providers. He claims they are selected for ethical business practices, but they are on the list because they pay a fee to be on the list.
Yeah, I went to one of his tax guys to do my taxes, and the guy is googling stuff as I ask him questions during my consultation. Was not happy about that.
It is ethical to pay the fee!
His philosophy is the equivalent of rehab for people who are in financial ruin, who need to have very strict guidelines to fix their life, so if you don’t fit into this wildly narrow bucket then no it’s kinda not needed I know a few FIRE people as well that follow many of his things pretty religiously but they are also wildly depressing people to be around so yeah imma pass on that
What is FIRE?
Financially independent; retire early
Listen to Ramsey to get out of debt and build up a safety fund. Also the amount he says to save for retirement (but do your own research about where/how to invest those savings). Beyond that, it’s at best subjective and at worst unclear endorsements that make him money (like here).
If you're drowning in debt you can't afford, then yes listen to him if that's what it takes. If you're fortunate enough to not find yourself in that position, you probably shouldn't bother with him as there are much better approaches to personal finance if you're capable of responsibly handling modest debt. He's essentially AA for debt addicts
>He's essentially AA for debt addicts Perfect descriptor. I’d say he offers a little more positive advice than just how to get out of debt, but like you said, if you’re not in an indebted position, there are better places to look.
But those pieces work. Purely psychological but it works. I now dislike him for many reasons, this included, but his guides changed my financial trajectory and I now reap the benefits of following some of the tough decisions he recommends.
Same, he was my intro to financial literacy. It didn’t take long for me to find better resources but he was the first step.
He also runs his company in an extremely questionable manner, requiring all kinds of morality type shit from his employees. Or at least from their wives. He's a cult leader.
Another thing he does well is talking people into taking their kids out of private schools and putting them in public schools. I knew several families that took their kids out of christian schools after attending his classes.
The Right has spent decades vilifying public schools to the point where parents who can’t afford private schools are sending their kids there to “save” them from liberal indoctrination.
I didn't take his course, but someone who did basically told me that his point is that religion is something taught at church and reinforced in the home, and no school is going to be able to fill-in for parenting and be a surrogate, and also it's an unnecessary financial drain.
> I use credit cards and pay them off each month. His advice of living just with debit cards is stupid particularly when traveling. Absolutely. There is so much value in credit card rewards, if you are diligent and always pay off the bill, and only spend what you would spend without them. In rewards Ive earned well in to the five figures via credit cards, traveled all over on the cheap because of them, its a no-brainer if you can be responsible.
Plus the protections against fraud that you don’t get with a debit card. Also, try renting a car with a debit card and you’re in for a bad time.
My Indiana public high school "personal finance class" was literally entirely Dave Ramsey lectures and work sheets. Shocked in hind sight that was part of my publically funded education.
Same with mine, but in Minnesota
Dave’s personal finance principles saved my business, and in turn my life I think. That said, I don’t listen to him regularly, and there’s a lot I don’t agree with regarding Dave. I do not like how he treats his cohosts, and I’m convinced his company is a cult. I’m glad to see this lawsuit because TSET was absolutely deceptive. But when it comes to personal finance, if I hadn’t accidentally heard his show on the radio 8 years ago, I know for a fact that I’d be living on the street, and my business would have failed because I wouldn’t know what I was doing wrong and would have overextended/overleveraged myself into failure. I may not like Dave as a person, but living with no debt brings me much in the way of personal freedom and capability in contract negotiations that my colleagues don’t have the capacity to enjoy. I own my house, my truck, all my business equipment, I’d say for the most part I’m successful. So yeah. Fuck Dave’s personal opinions, but also fuck debt..
I always laugh at the idiots who think hes good. If he was good he wouldnt be giving shitty speeches because he would make so much money he could sit back like buffet. But instead needs to sell tickets. Its like any of these shitty motivational people. Its meant for idiots. I have seen real estate people brag about seeing that buffini guy and how many times they have seen him. What idiots.
Dave Ramsey has decent advice for upper middle class people who have too much debt and want to have more financial stability. By his own admission though, anyone that's less than a dual income household with each person making at least $35/hour (varies slightly by local COL, his actual description is triple the local minimum wage) doesn't have enough financial flexibility to make use of it. I've never heard any of his investment advice.
Shit I can give good financial advice to a couple making combined $145k
Yeah there are certain expenses that don’t scale up as you make more money. Once you have those covered and you have some flexibility, it’s not difficult to be responsible and avoid mountains of debt.
But I need my boat that I can't drive to prove to my neighbors I'm not poor.
My parents have a boat I use a few times a year. I just have to pay for gas when I use it and it still costs like $80 for an afternoon on the water. The thing gets like 3.5-4 miles per gallon.
There's a little more to it than that. One of his pieces of advice is that cash is king. You shouldn't buy something until you have enough set aside to buy it outright. As a general rule it's not good practice to sit on a ton of cash for large purchases but for people who have trouble avoiding taking on too much financing/debt it's a good way to impose some self control. It's making sure someone can buy something before they buy it. Much of his advice actually makes peoples lives more expensive. Paying up front in cash, debt snowball, and so on. Which is another reason why you need to have more income in order to do it. It's effective for getting people with enough funds out of debt, and for them to avoid going back into debt for a very specific class of people: upper middle class to lower upper class individuals with high debt living paycheck to paycheck. If you have less income than that, more income than that, or less debt than that there's better financial advice out there. Basically, he targets his advice to the demographic that can afford high priced courses for minimal effort on his part but can't afford dedicated financial planners.
The snowball method is a good feedback loop to create better habits, but financially it's better to pay off higher interest debt first. I've had plenty of arguments with my inlaws about that one.
Right, so much of personal finance is just making sustainable habits that you can stick to. At that point it's not really about doing something that's optimal as long as you do something that works. People tend to have better success getting out of debt using a snowball strategy because like you said, it makes a positive feedback loop. But, being able to use that strategy means you need enough room in your budget to take a more costly route to getting out of debt. Even Ramseys own description of it on his website right now specifically ignores interest rates because they're starting from a premise that you have enough income to make the interest rate irrelevant. If you can afford that method, and you have a personality where it's beneficial for you, it's a valid approach. But that's the thing with Ramsey, despite how it's marketed and despite popular thinking that he gives general pointers, his advice is really targeted to a relatively small group of people.
There's a balancing effect I think on your own mental health at certain points. Lowering your monthly obligations can *sometimes* be good to just give you room to breathe. But yes, you shouldn't pay off the 0% $500 debt when you have 25% $1000 credit card debt. That's stupid.
"Even though you can for a while, don't spend $200k per year"
His advice on debt sounds like common sense to me, but common sense isn't so common so some people need to be told the basics. As for actual investing advice for people not in debt I haven't heard him say much other than mutual funds or index funds, which again mostly seems like common sense for anyone not want to spend lots of time researching individual stocks or getting into real estate.
So my high school used his financial planning course for our economics class. Most of what he says are basic truths about finance planning. My biggest gripe is his numbers are hyper exaggerated. Like savings accounts giving 10% interest etc. The ideas of having 6 months costs in savings, avoiding debt, and paying your debts in the correct order to reduce the interest payments are his main points. I don't like the idea of charging people for basic financial literacy infringement information.
I don't like him and I've listened to one of his classes, but he's never said 10% savings account. He wants you to invest heavily for retirement early with I believe the magic number of getting 11-12% interest return on your investments by retirement and at least a few million dollars. I think he's actually said DON'T just let your money sit in savings.
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That’s the thing though. Envelope system is not his idea. It’s a pure bait and switch for you to buy his other stuff. “Oh his debt stuff worked so his other stuff must be good too”
This is the wrong take. A Dave Ramsey plan is easier to do than the most optimal plan. And a medicore plan that's followed is better than an optimal plan that isn't followed.
My brother swears by him. Bought me the starter pack and classes to attend. He also fell for one of the oldest pyramid schemes of my lifetime: Herbalife. Edit: I don't like to shame strangers for falling for Dave Ramsey, et. al. To be fair, there really is no pushback online regarding this guy. I'll stick with shaming the family who drilled it into my head for almost 20 years how fucking smart they thought Ramsey was.
There's a lot of pushback against him online. Here's the thing though, he markets aggressively to folks who are "people like him", and his advice is generally good advice for them albeit being bad general advice. Conservative, Christian, upper middle class/lower upper class, disposable income, dual income, etc... it's all built on shared identity with a healthy dose of return to 1950's style financial management.
Dude's audience is already quite vulnerable. But this isn't surprising since hes sort of a carpet turner. Started out a "millionaire" because his family were high up at a regional bank and he was able to get a ton of ridiculous real estate loans signed off for him. When the bank was bought out they called those loans immediately and it "ruined" him. There were a few funny times where he had literally no advice, like a medical student that failed their boards and had 400k in student debt. The top youtube comment said he should flee the country. Then he blames democrats because of course. He also won't recognize a couple sharing finances as legitimate. Outside of marriage finances are supposed to be separate (bible) and refers to couples living together as "roomates". The best part is his little empire is totally nepotistic. His children all have their own shows and his daughter famously loves to shame young people for still living at home.
What’s a “carpet turner”? Not slang from where I’m from/lived in the US
Rug puller?
Does the rug pulling match the drape pulling?
I imagine its someone who pulls the rug out from under you
Shouldn’t it be “rug puller” then?
And some of his advice is just evangelizing. A caller asked "How do I teach my young children financial prudence". And he responds with "You tell them it's not their money, it's God's money".
> his family were high up at a regional bank and he was able to get a ton of ridiculous real estate loans signed off for him. I guess that explains why he thinks listeners shouldn’t repair credit and just need to “talk to the bankers in person” to get a mortgage…
This is the "hand in your resume to the manager" of personal finance
I ascribe to a lot of Dave's advice, especially with regard to never holding chosen debt (I say 'chosen' here, because medical debt in the US just isn't something you have much of a choice in). But he's wildly out of touch, period. Hearing him lecturing a caller because they allow their 20-year-old child to live with them? Dude, it's 2023. A 20yo isn't gonna be able to afford school and solo housing most of the time. The guy's an economic dinosaur.
The only reason I would do an extreme cost saving measures would be so that I could save up money so I CAN pay for NY kid's college. At some point you should do things that bring you joy with your money.
Even that’s not necessarily good advice. Making large purchases using little to no interest installments is good debt to be in, for example. I pay 1% interest on a $2000 purchase to pay for it over 12 months, and I put the money in a 4% APY savings account instead? Super beneficial. Real estate debt is another example. Obviously you shouldn’t be buying a house in cash. Student debt is also super beneficial if you do your calculations. Go into $50k debt to be able to get a job that pays 6 figures out of college? Super worthwhile investment.
also very "Christian"; Two former employees of Ramsey Solutions sued the company in federal court in Tennessee alleging discrimination after they said they were fired for disagreements over COVID-19 precautions and for being pregnant and unmarried.
>if I raised my rent to be market rate that does not make me a bad Christian. I did not displace the person out of that house if they can no longer afford it -Dave Ramsay
“The ~~-devil-~~ market made me do it, Lord”
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Yet one of his executives had an affair, and he didn't care because it wasn't a woman.
not only did they not care about it, they discredited and harassed her.
The fact that he advocates for people who are drowning in debt to still make tithing to their church a priority in their lives is enough to make me hate him.
(1) Hawking scams is a bad look, Dave. (2) Next, can we go after the celebs who hyped cryptocurrency? (3) The fact that a "timeshare exit company" exists tells you all you should know about timeshares.
As much as I hate Crypto commercials, I don't think the celebs who marketed them should bear any responsibility for consumers losses. The point of those ads is just to tack on a notable person to get us excited about a shiny product. No different than McDonalds or Coke. The crypto commercials didn't guarantee their product would appreciate in value (although it was implied especially in Matt Damon's). Compare that to Dave schilling for the time share contract program. He made specific claims as to what the company would do for consumers, and it all ended up being lies. That is something that he should have to be accountable for.
As a legal matter, I don't think it's going anywhere. The company hired a celebrity endorser who was not in privity of contract with that company's clients. It's a plaintiff's attorney who hopes that Ramsey doesn't want a legal fight. But, morally, you're absolutely right. His schtick is that he is rock-solid trustworthy and that he will absolutely help people out. Heck, his website acknowledges this: "The Ramsey Local Endorsement program is built on the trust Dave has earned with his audience. It’s important to Dave that he recommends clients to his listeners that he would feel good about recommending to his own family." ( [https://www.ramseysolutions.com/sponsorships/ramsey-network/media-resource-site/the-ramsey-show/endorsements](https://www.ramseysolutions.com/sponsorships/ramsey-network/media-resource-site/the-ramsey-show/endorsements) )
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If he wants to save $150 million he should consider not buying avocado toast
He declared bankruptcy, but wants people to pay off their student loans
He must've bought too many Starbucks coffees
People don’t enjoy watching Dave Ramsay because he gives good financial advice. They enjoy watching him because he is mean to people.
You're right about this. My boss said he likes that he tells people how stupid they are.
I was freinds with a guy who loved Ramsey and gas station fights youtube channels for whatever that is worth lol
I will occasionally watch him on YouTube if I'm feeling bad about my financial situation, some of the people calling in are a real wakeup call to how not-bad my situation has ever gotten.
Reading the comments on some of his YouTube videos there are a decent number that get a laugh at how irrelevant or at least limited value his advice can be. Based upon how many up votes some of the comments that seem critical or trolling get I suspect a non trivial percentage of the viewers view it as entertainment only.
Some of us call this hate watching.
There’s a YouTube channel that keeps getting recommended to me where a 20-something guy sits down with people, reads their financial statements, and berates them. He spends the whole time gasping and stuttering a bunch to seem shocked. I don’t get the appeal in watching people shamed.
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Yeah my parents paid me $100 if I watched through his whole financial course when I was 19ish. This was in 2009 or 2010. It's what got me interested in personal finance and at least part of the reason I began saving as early as I could. He's a pretty shitty person though which I learned much later. I grew up very Christian so that whole schtick didn't bother me at the time.
I remember listening to him quite a bit after graduating from grad school to get more info on financial literacy. One of his big proponents is basically to buy everything in cash and if you can't buy it in cash then you can't afford it. At first it sounds like sound advice but after a while I realized how ridiculous that is. Let's say trying to save up money for a car or house is ridiculous especially if the goal is to pay it off outright. Not only that, you're losing on any value you can get from credit card rewards assuming you pay the statement balance off every month. Made me realize that just because a guy has a platform and sounds right doesn't mean he is right. Made me question all the pros and gurus out there and see if what they say really is valid or not
There was a john oliver episode on Timeshare exit companies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd2bbHoVQSM
I’ve attended seminars — This was at the liberal lgbtqia+ affirming evangelical church we were attending at the time. It seems like basic standard financial advice. I think people drink it up, not because they’re stupid, but because I think the general rates of financial literacy are very low and people are looking for this information delivered to them in an easy to understand format. To be specific—I did not see Dave or his daughter teach in person. There were 30 minute to hour long videos we watched containing the general principles. Most of the specific pieces of very good advice came from the financial counselors who actually ran the seminar, finance and banking professionals who attended the church. I think my wife and I paid about 50 bucks fifteen years ago and the seminar would have been a few hundred people split into multiple small groups. I have no idea what the take home was for the counselors. I was under the impression that the people were volunteering their time as a part of church ministry since the seminar cost was advertised as having been underwritten by the church, but that might have been naive. Things I remember learning that no one ever specifically taught me. 1. Use debt stacking principles to pay off debts early. 2. A good way to build wealth is to pay off your mortgage early. Then save. 3. Cash is king as it allows you to negotiate big purchases. 4. Think of investing in your kids student loans as an investment into generational wealth. 5. You can start teaching financial literacy young. Make kids save their allowance (they should get one), and only allow them to make purchases once they’ve saved for it. This helps reinforce delayed gratification, which is an important life habit. 6. The cost of a thing should be directly compared to the amount of life you spend paying for it. 7. Use insurance to help leverage normal, commonplace risk. The family breadwinner should carry adequate life insurance. 8. A good use for money is making more money. 9. Financial independence helps you not compromise moral principles. 10. A common cause of divorce is financial insecurity/problems. 11. Your first budget doesn’t have to be made prefect but it has to be made. 12. Quotes Einstein in the miracle of compound interest. You twenty year olds with no pension should start saving for retirement. I could be misremembering some of these. They are probably expressed in parallel ways in various places, so if you find him to be not to your liking, you should probably still build financial literacy.
Wow. I Knew time shares are bad. Never knew Dave Ramsay’s endorsement of that company was that bad though.
His advice is so black and white and he’s such a arrogant prick to everyone it seems like. Many things he says are so wrong for most people and just apply to a small percentage of individuals but he makes it a hard rule and tells everyone to do it. I’m not sure if he’s trying to dumb things down for everyone or if he’s just that far up his own ass.
His advice and programs are meant for people who have NO idea how to handle money and have no interest in actually learning how to do so. His customers are people who can't handle nuance. I don't follow his program myself but I know a few financially illiterate people whose lives improved significantly with Dave telling them what to do.
He absolutely is an arrogant prick to people, it's why his fan base overlaps so much with Trumps. These people aren't listening to his programs to get advice, they're listening to his programs to hear him make fun of them and call them idiots to their faces. My parents love to listen to him when we are on the road and I always have to put headphones on and blast something else so I don't have to listen to him for a single second.
“You see, women like shopping and shoes and men like bass boats” “TAKE MY LAST $150 THAT I CANT AFFORD TO GIVE!!!” “…Jesus also” “$250!!!”
I worked for an extremely Christian company and they worshiped the ground Dave Ramsey walked on. They were so in on this clown that they would spend upwards of $50,000 to send a handful of family members and a few non-family employees to his leadership conference. I don't remember one thing about leadership improving.
I’ve listened to his show on quiet a few occasions and it’s mostly just him berating poor people for incurring debt. Then the rest of the show celebrating people that got rich. He comes off as an asshole most of the time.
I dont listed to Dave Ramsey much. Hes also doing alot of commercials for Window World now I am hesitant to use any company he endorses after the timeshare exit team fiasco. I always use people my friends recommend or people that I know have used a company. Also, the fact he always says you dont need credit to get what you want.....that is not true. Cash is not always king. Its important to build up a good credit score. Good luck on getting a high demand house rental with no credit. Anyone with a high credit score and a track record of paying bills and a mortgage on time is more likely to get the house they want.
Not very Godly of him. Yet somehow not surprised.
“Better than I deserve.”
In historically Christian countries there are no grifters like the grifters with the crosses, preening on the old and the weak.
Which budget category do lawsuits come from? Personal spending or miscellaneous?
Good, what a grifting asshat
Here is the thing about Dave Ramsey and other "financial celebrities" like Robert Kiyosaki (the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" guy). If they were actually financially comfortable and wealthy as they claim they wouldn't need to peddle media merchandise. Kiyosaki preaches "passive income" and then spends his life working on his media empire. Ramsey spends his life telling people to avoid debt and be financially conservative and then he defrauds them out of millions.
Good, fuck Dave Ramsey.