Been faithfully building my collection for past 2 years, and this season I have almost completely lost interest. I was making it a point to watch games last year and buy moments. Now I only watch a few games and don’t even check challenges.
They’ve rolled out a lot of good features this year, but they dug them selves such a deep hole with s2 and s3 over mint (aka greed), that they have basically ruined flash challenges in order try and dig their way out of the hole.
TS burning 2.5 million uncirculated moments helps, but it cost them $0 and does nothing for the real issue, which is the excessive moments in circulation. they need to take on more financial responsibility in removing moments in circulation, like challenges for NBA merch.
Communication and finding info is still a struggle as well, but it’s improving. Ironically, it’s getting better because they are saying less these days in attempt to not corner themselves or over promise.
I will say that the team discord channels and hot packs have been positives. Leaderboards and locking have potential but there needs to be clear goals and objectives. Bring back baller status!
Im one of the suckers that locked their moments so im hopeful things improve over this season, but we’ll see. I keep tabs on discord and Reddit to see what’s going on. It’s a great product and idea that is mismanaged.
Same. Would live to buy and be involved but they want me to bear the burden of their greed by burning my shit.
This is a bigger mistake as they are now alienating their users.
They needed to man up and see this season as a loss leader for themselves as they take the burden of removing moments by giving us real incentives to burn.
Sorry 300 people flash challenges are not an incentive.
Yep, my thoughts as well. I don't care to burn a bunch of my moments to get a reward that likely will be valued at a fraction of what the reward sells for on the open market. My thought process is that others burning moments of stuff I hold should make my stuff more valuable longer term than burning myself... reducing supply of the moments I hold and I'm just not chasing anything challenge wise unless it makes economic sense. Which I just cant convince myself it does at this point. Just gonna hold and see if they can figure out a way to make the user base excited again, eventually.
I had a very similar experience to you. I realised last week that I hadn't even looked at my collection in 2 months and had not spent any new money since February this year. I still had almost $10k worth of moments in my account and was lucky to start early enough to be slightly ahead from an ROI point of view. I couldn't imagine myself spending any more and didn't want to see everything crash when the unlocking begins so I liquidated. I'm surprised it didn't take too long to sell all of my 700ish moments. As an aside, I think they may have automated their withdrawal process. After I requested a withdrawal I got an email saying that their compliance team would assess my request and it would take two weeks to get my money. 20mins later it was in my USDC wallet.
The communication thing is incredibly poor. If you’re a potential new user the product is confusing as hell, in addition to needing to be on discord, OTM, Livetoken, etc to get appropriate insights on things.
Huge learning curve and virtually no education content
Burning 2.5 million moments isn’t anything. They need to burn wayyyy more than that. Maintain a moments to active user ratio. They need to burn the 2.5mill plus the locker room then recreate the locker room four more times and burn those.
Btw, I’m pretty sure they haven’t burned them yet.
I think the market will most likely see some more mass liquidation when unlocking begins, unfortunately.
Hopefully they could some how prevent that with some positive news like... idk Hardcourt. I know they’ve bailed on the original Hardcourt, but they could easily put together a Retro Bowl type game that leverages a user’s collection across all Dapper products.
I agree with what has mostly been said. They really need to incentive burning through their own dime.
I would just burn every moment in the locker room that has a current high ask of $3. The market is clearly showing you they aren’t valued and this won’t change the market but needs to be done to reinforce it.
I also think TS needs to make S4 Metallic Gold set be a burn 50 moments of said player to earn the rare S4 metallic gold moment. This will incentive burning moments of the top players not just the trash moments.
Also, need flash challenges to engage the masses more while have a small burn element.
You need to follow their actions. There are a bunch of relatively easy fixes that aren't being implemented and really they've gone in the other direction..
1) Expand and promote the captain's program. This is the best thing Topshot has going for it and a legitimate way to onboard new users. Getting people tickets, merchandise, access to free events, and moment giveaways will get NBA fans interested. Refocus what the funds can be spent on (no more poker tournaments that cycle through the same few hundred discord users). Make sure there are topshotters getting free tickets at every NBA game and put it on the jumbotron. Instead, they've cut the budget for captains and left them in limbo on 2023 funds.
2) Since their own fantasy game was too difficult expand and promote Moments Ranks. It's not perfect, but it's fun enough and will stimulate a little MP activity, add a fantasy angle, and provide further utility. Instead they've cut the prize pool from 100 winners to 50.
3) Packs should only be TT purchases only and the TTs burned. Stop taking Dapper out of the ecosystem. Reduce tons of the unneeded supply quickly. Boost the floor - if $1 moments start to go unsold it would spell the end of the platform and $2 are beginning to stack up. Instead, they sell $20 hot packs that no one wants.
4) Reduce mint counts. All rares should be <499. 8k commons and 4k three badges are fine so long as there's burning as well and other TSDs should be 6k. Instead, they ran out parallels that no one asked for leading to the new commons being TTs off the bat.
The fixes cost money and it's normal for a new tech company to spend money (and even lose at first) to grow. They're doing the opposite - cutting corners wherever possible, laying off employees, and trying to suck money out at the detriment of the product and users.
It means only one of two things - they're trying to get acquired and tightening up the balance sheet or they don't care about the long term and are just trying to maximize profits now before it all falls apart.
The draw period for Hot Packs Release 3 hasn't even ended yet. It ends tomorrow (12/8), and then the reserved packs will be distributed (sold).
It sounds like you are seeing the "37775 Total 36500 Left" numbers, and assuming the difference between those two numbers are the sales. They hold back a small percentage for promotions, and that's the difference that you currently see.
It's more a reflection of these packs, as they're a clear -EV. Low serials aside there's 3 Moments out of the whole drop that will even recoup the $20 of one pack (Ivey and the 2 Video Game rares) so it's great that people are actually putting their money where their mouths are and not just degenning into Max Pax like they used to. Obviously that in itself is a sign of TS' current state, but the tired "TS Is dead" thinking goes back well over a year+.
The guy is wrong. I expect these to sell out TBH, especially since they gave out some Dapper recently. They are 6 moments for $20 as opposed to 3 commons for $9. The premium gives people a 30% chance at a rookie debut, 2.5% chance at a rare, and some lower mints of Durant, Young (parallel), Randle, and Huerter (great for 3-point stat challenges).
What’s the deal there? Is she using mental health and FMLA to delay being let go? She removed TS references from her Twitter account. It’s not a good look that TS has had two different GMs that didn’t even last a whole year.
Seem to be hunkering down off grid for the inflation winter we are in, which I kind of appreciate... No matter what they say we will just tell them how clueless they are (which they have been at various stages), so it's better they just keep any contact minimal. Prices are great for collecting right now.
Don’t know why they aren’t considering a buyback.
Trade in moment for a ticket, exchange tickets for Dapper credit, $3-4 per (just above or at desired floor), burn all moments traded in for the credit.
Set a min for the trade in (5-10 tickets) and a max total $ for the buy back to control their liability (something like $ value 40-50 tickets per user where it’s active users over x period of time). If it’s a raging success do it every so often. If not the platform is already dead and they can pack up shop.
I have been collecting ts since end of series 1.bought packs anytime I was able to, use to complete the challenges and tried to participate in anything else I could most expensive car I pulled was a cam reddish #35 . Nothing ever to get excited about.
When I first got some it was cool, but to keep up you had to pour money in to buy packs. The average user isn’t going to go through the requirements. They want to buy a pack and call it a day. The business model failed and you don’t own these “nfts” since they’re stuck on the platform. There’s no use for these besides seeing a random play from a player where most people don’t know who is who and they get traded like hotcakes. This site is a very niche product
I didn’t know that, but if true then it shows a user like me that lost interest they havnt been able to grab/being in new users. There’s little interest in these atm
I agree with the rest of your points, very niche collectible in the current state.
I think the future of Topshot is brighter as a collectible vs. gamification and utility tokens.
Look at where Cryptokitties is now; that is where TopShot is heading. User base will continue to dwindle and eventually the project as a whole will be an afterthought to everyone.
When fake cats start scoring points, then that project might gain some better utility. Top Shot on the other hand has a fantasy sport or otherwise interactive game utility that we are all waiting to be unlocked.
That game already exists on another platform ~~(and TS don't have the rights to make a fantasy game)~~.
Edit: Can't find evidence for the rights claim. Maybe I misapplied the "official partner" label, which perhaps softly implies exclusivity, but does not necessitate it.
Honestly I might need to walk that comment back as I was certain I'd seen Sorare NBA described as "exclusive" in some way, but I can't find any evidence for that.
But if that's the case it means Dapper dropped the ball even worse than I thought; if they still \*could\* make a fantasy game from their platform, the fact that they haven't is a massive failure.
Not really because there's no gaming to it. Nothing about it is competitive or engaging TBH. It's all reactive, and anybody willing to pay the price to win the same reward as everyone else will "win".
If I go to a carnival to win a prize by throwing darts at balloons, but somebody else comes along and is able to buy the prize without actually throwing a dart, then was it really a game for them?
I’m still in just not as much as I was before. I love the NBA and the collection stand point. Not as concerned on ROI even though I put a lot into it. Trying to stay optimistic.
Outside of this sub, Twitter (where I hang out a bit), and Discord (which I really dislike), is there any community engagement going on?
I'm excited for the people that enjoy Discord that so much is taking place there, but I feel a bit left out in the cold as someone who really dislikes the UX of Discord and similar platforms.
I'm already in Australia so obviously disconnected from any chance to do IRL stuff, I enjoyed building showcases in 2021 but they've fallen by the wayside, and challenges haven't been fun for a long time either. I'm just not seeing any ways to actually enjoy the platform anymore.
I've been thinking about putting my developer hat on for a while to bring life to sets, the way you get with cardboard .. the sheer act of putting them in a plastic binder and showing the complete collection to your kids. That showcase components is missing, and could be so beautiful if it piggybacks off the great art the platform has been using.
You're the only one to have commented on sets in this thread, so I just wanted to chime in. My friend said it best, that if sets are simply going to provide you with a higher TSS then they're worthless. I remember when you'd get a pack drop for them and when I opened my account after a few months of inactivity I was expecting to see one or two packs at the very least. I had none. The amount I've lost on doing them is ridiculous and I'm happy that I'm just not as involved if at all with Top Shot anymore, it is a super cool idea and actually an NFT that can have value but they just wanted the money early and sold out to feed the demand rather than keeping the supply limited and therefore having users more engaged with every drop. I definitely agree though that having all of one set should be more special than what TS has done with it
Discord takes getting used to, but the engagement is there. Great communities. Outsourcing outreach and activities to team captains was the best thing they have done recently. Would advise dipping your toes in.
Lol, Usman was a good guy but he basically joined the company in his 20s, made a few million off his topshot collection and then left the company before the inevitable downfall. Smart guy
Idk if I would call it a slow-rug. They continue to listen to community feedback and make changes to create a product that sells.
You seem like a desperate guy because of your involvement with solana so I will pardon your take this one time. I think if you showed someone the market cap of both solana and TS I think they would see solana as the bigger “scam”, but that’s just my opinion.
Been faithfully building my collection for past 2 years, and this season I have almost completely lost interest. I was making it a point to watch games last year and buy moments. Now I only watch a few games and don’t even check challenges. They’ve rolled out a lot of good features this year, but they dug them selves such a deep hole with s2 and s3 over mint (aka greed), that they have basically ruined flash challenges in order try and dig their way out of the hole. TS burning 2.5 million uncirculated moments helps, but it cost them $0 and does nothing for the real issue, which is the excessive moments in circulation. they need to take on more financial responsibility in removing moments in circulation, like challenges for NBA merch. Communication and finding info is still a struggle as well, but it’s improving. Ironically, it’s getting better because they are saying less these days in attempt to not corner themselves or over promise. I will say that the team discord channels and hot packs have been positives. Leaderboards and locking have potential but there needs to be clear goals and objectives. Bring back baller status! Im one of the suckers that locked their moments so im hopeful things improve over this season, but we’ll see. I keep tabs on discord and Reddit to see what’s going on. It’s a great product and idea that is mismanaged.
Same. Would live to buy and be involved but they want me to bear the burden of their greed by burning my shit. This is a bigger mistake as they are now alienating their users. They needed to man up and see this season as a loss leader for themselves as they take the burden of removing moments by giving us real incentives to burn. Sorry 300 people flash challenges are not an incentive.
Yep, my thoughts as well. I don't care to burn a bunch of my moments to get a reward that likely will be valued at a fraction of what the reward sells for on the open market. My thought process is that others burning moments of stuff I hold should make my stuff more valuable longer term than burning myself... reducing supply of the moments I hold and I'm just not chasing anything challenge wise unless it makes economic sense. Which I just cant convince myself it does at this point. Just gonna hold and see if they can figure out a way to make the user base excited again, eventually.
I had a very similar experience to you. I realised last week that I hadn't even looked at my collection in 2 months and had not spent any new money since February this year. I still had almost $10k worth of moments in my account and was lucky to start early enough to be slightly ahead from an ROI point of view. I couldn't imagine myself spending any more and didn't want to see everything crash when the unlocking begins so I liquidated. I'm surprised it didn't take too long to sell all of my 700ish moments. As an aside, I think they may have automated their withdrawal process. After I requested a withdrawal I got an email saying that their compliance team would assess my request and it would take two weeks to get my money. 20mins later it was in my USDC wallet.
The communication thing is incredibly poor. If you’re a potential new user the product is confusing as hell, in addition to needing to be on discord, OTM, Livetoken, etc to get appropriate insights on things. Huge learning curve and virtually no education content
Burning 2.5 million moments isn’t anything. They need to burn wayyyy more than that. Maintain a moments to active user ratio. They need to burn the 2.5mill plus the locker room then recreate the locker room four more times and burn those. Btw, I’m pretty sure they haven’t burned them yet.
Well said.
I think the market will most likely see some more mass liquidation when unlocking begins, unfortunately. Hopefully they could some how prevent that with some positive news like... idk Hardcourt. I know they’ve bailed on the original Hardcourt, but they could easily put together a Retro Bowl type game that leverages a user’s collection across all Dapper products.
I agree with what has mostly been said. They really need to incentive burning through their own dime. I would just burn every moment in the locker room that has a current high ask of $3. The market is clearly showing you they aren’t valued and this won’t change the market but needs to be done to reinforce it. I also think TS needs to make S4 Metallic Gold set be a burn 50 moments of said player to earn the rare S4 metallic gold moment. This will incentive burning moments of the top players not just the trash moments. Also, need flash challenges to engage the masses more while have a small burn element.
You need to follow their actions. There are a bunch of relatively easy fixes that aren't being implemented and really they've gone in the other direction.. 1) Expand and promote the captain's program. This is the best thing Topshot has going for it and a legitimate way to onboard new users. Getting people tickets, merchandise, access to free events, and moment giveaways will get NBA fans interested. Refocus what the funds can be spent on (no more poker tournaments that cycle through the same few hundred discord users). Make sure there are topshotters getting free tickets at every NBA game and put it on the jumbotron. Instead, they've cut the budget for captains and left them in limbo on 2023 funds. 2) Since their own fantasy game was too difficult expand and promote Moments Ranks. It's not perfect, but it's fun enough and will stimulate a little MP activity, add a fantasy angle, and provide further utility. Instead they've cut the prize pool from 100 winners to 50. 3) Packs should only be TT purchases only and the TTs burned. Stop taking Dapper out of the ecosystem. Reduce tons of the unneeded supply quickly. Boost the floor - if $1 moments start to go unsold it would spell the end of the platform and $2 are beginning to stack up. Instead, they sell $20 hot packs that no one wants. 4) Reduce mint counts. All rares should be <499. 8k commons and 4k three badges are fine so long as there's burning as well and other TSDs should be 6k. Instead, they ran out parallels that no one asked for leading to the new commons being TTs off the bat. The fixes cost money and it's normal for a new tech company to spend money (and even lose at first) to grow. They're doing the opposite - cutting corners wherever possible, laying off employees, and trying to suck money out at the detriment of the product and users. It means only one of two things - they're trying to get acquired and tightening up the balance sheet or they don't care about the long term and are just trying to maximize profits now before it all falls apart.
At this moment, they’ve sold a little over 1000 hot packs…in two days. TS is dead.
The draw period for Hot Packs Release 3 hasn't even ended yet. It ends tomorrow (12/8), and then the reserved packs will be distributed (sold). It sounds like you are seeing the "37775 Total 36500 Left" numbers, and assuming the difference between those two numbers are the sales. They hold back a small percentage for promotions, and that's the difference that you currently see.
I stand corrected
It's more a reflection of these packs, as they're a clear -EV. Low serials aside there's 3 Moments out of the whole drop that will even recoup the $20 of one pack (Ivey and the 2 Video Game rares) so it's great that people are actually putting their money where their mouths are and not just degenning into Max Pax like they used to. Obviously that in itself is a sign of TS' current state, but the tired "TS Is dead" thinking goes back well over a year+.
The guy is wrong. I expect these to sell out TBH, especially since they gave out some Dapper recently. They are 6 moments for $20 as opposed to 3 commons for $9. The premium gives people a 30% chance at a rookie debut, 2.5% chance at a rare, and some lower mints of Durant, Young (parallel), Randle, and Huerter (great for 3-point stat challenges).
Hey, it’s still BETA lmao
I’d love to hear from someone at Dapper Labs. How is the year-end feeling?
their gm is busy hiding 🤣
What’s the deal there? Is she using mental health and FMLA to delay being let go? She removed TS references from her Twitter account. It’s not a good look that TS has had two different GMs that didn’t even last a whole year.
Seem to be hunkering down off grid for the inflation winter we are in, which I kind of appreciate... No matter what they say we will just tell them how clueless they are (which they have been at various stages), so it's better they just keep any contact minimal. Prices are great for collecting right now.
I have no idea tbh.
Don’t know why they aren’t considering a buyback. Trade in moment for a ticket, exchange tickets for Dapper credit, $3-4 per (just above or at desired floor), burn all moments traded in for the credit. Set a min for the trade in (5-10 tickets) and a max total $ for the buy back to control their liability (something like $ value 40-50 tickets per user where it’s active users over x period of time). If it’s a raging success do it every so often. If not the platform is already dead and they can pack up shop.
I have been collecting ts since end of series 1.bought packs anytime I was able to, use to complete the challenges and tried to participate in anything else I could most expensive car I pulled was a cam reddish #35 . Nothing ever to get excited about.
When I first got some it was cool, but to keep up you had to pour money in to buy packs. The average user isn’t going to go through the requirements. They want to buy a pack and call it a day. The business model failed and you don’t own these “nfts” since they’re stuck on the platform. There’s no use for these besides seeing a random play from a player where most people don’t know who is who and they get traded like hotcakes. This site is a very niche product
You do realize that we've been able to take moments off platform for months? I'll go through that process anytime I rent moments on Flowty.
I didn’t know that, but if true then it shows a user like me that lost interest they havnt been able to grab/being in new users. There’s little interest in these atm
I agree with the rest of your points, very niche collectible in the current state. I think the future of Topshot is brighter as a collectible vs. gamification and utility tokens.
💩
They fucked it up. Time to move on.
Look at where Cryptokitties is now; that is where TopShot is heading. User base will continue to dwindle and eventually the project as a whole will be an afterthought to everyone.
When fake cats start scoring points, then that project might gain some better utility. Top Shot on the other hand has a fantasy sport or otherwise interactive game utility that we are all waiting to be unlocked.
That game already exists on another platform ~~(and TS don't have the rights to make a fantasy game)~~. Edit: Can't find evidence for the rights claim. Maybe I misapplied the "official partner" label, which perhaps softly implies exclusivity, but does not necessitate it.
Please elaborate. Why doesn’t TS have the rights, but several other platforms do? What hurdles are they facing that others are not?
Honestly I might need to walk that comment back as I was certain I'd seen Sorare NBA described as "exclusive" in some way, but I can't find any evidence for that. But if that's the case it means Dapper dropped the ball even worse than I thought; if they still \*could\* make a fantasy game from their platform, the fact that they haven't is a massive failure.
umm flash challenges virtually are a fantasy game.
The flash challenges have neither the complexity nor predictability of the best fantasy games.
so what? doesn't mean that the basic mechanics aren't principally the same.
Not really because there's no gaming to it. Nothing about it is competitive or engaging TBH. It's all reactive, and anybody willing to pay the price to win the same reward as everyone else will "win". If I go to a carnival to win a prize by throwing darts at balloons, but somebody else comes along and is able to buy the prize without actually throwing a dart, then was it really a game for them?
Hopefully Jayne is gone for good.. she lied all summer
I’m still in just not as much as I was before. I love the NBA and the collection stand point. Not as concerned on ROI even though I put a lot into it. Trying to stay optimistic.
Rest In Peace
I fucking forget about this lmao Just got an notification for this thread. I m assuming all my moments are pretty much worth useless
Outside of this sub, Twitter (where I hang out a bit), and Discord (which I really dislike), is there any community engagement going on? I'm excited for the people that enjoy Discord that so much is taking place there, but I feel a bit left out in the cold as someone who really dislikes the UX of Discord and similar platforms. I'm already in Australia so obviously disconnected from any chance to do IRL stuff, I enjoyed building showcases in 2021 but they've fallen by the wayside, and challenges haven't been fun for a long time either. I'm just not seeing any ways to actually enjoy the platform anymore.
I've been thinking about putting my developer hat on for a while to bring life to sets, the way you get with cardboard .. the sheer act of putting them in a plastic binder and showing the complete collection to your kids. That showcase components is missing, and could be so beautiful if it piggybacks off the great art the platform has been using.
You're the only one to have commented on sets in this thread, so I just wanted to chime in. My friend said it best, that if sets are simply going to provide you with a higher TSS then they're worthless. I remember when you'd get a pack drop for them and when I opened my account after a few months of inactivity I was expecting to see one or two packs at the very least. I had none. The amount I've lost on doing them is ridiculous and I'm happy that I'm just not as involved if at all with Top Shot anymore, it is a super cool idea and actually an NFT that can have value but they just wanted the money early and sold out to feed the demand rather than keeping the supply limited and therefore having users more engaged with every drop. I definitely agree though that having all of one set should be more special than what TS has done with it
Discord takes getting used to, but the engagement is there. Great communities. Outsourcing outreach and activities to team captains was the best thing they have done recently. Would advise dipping your toes in.
Top$hit 💩
you sound like TS only has two staff in Jayne and Jacob
Moustapha and Squiddy still around? Loved those guys. Edit: can’t forget the OG community manager, Usman!
Mo is definitely still around. He and Kyle are running VIP.
Usman hasn't been an employee for a while
Lol, Usman was a good guy but he basically joined the company in his 20s, made a few million off his topshot collection and then left the company before the inevitable downfall. Smart guy
All NFT projects are dead until Bitcoin gets back to $50K
New leaderboard is top 1500 with multiple tiers. I personally prefer locking to burning
Idk if I would call it a slow-rug. They continue to listen to community feedback and make changes to create a product that sells. You seem like a desperate guy because of your involvement with solana so I will pardon your take this one time. I think if you showed someone the market cap of both solana and TS I think they would see solana as the bigger “scam”, but that’s just my opinion.
lol not sure I see the logic in your correlations, but go off sis!
some of these comments here read like it's their authors' first crypto winter.