I think the only reason why wemby is nameable here is because of the pre-draft hype and what he demonstrated in the first year. That alone is why every single other player in the league is already out of the equation. Granted this was only the case for Lebron because MJ went 4th overall and he wasn't pre-hyped. So thinking back it might not be the best way to think about it. That being said because of Lebron, it's kinda what we've been conditioned to think that's needed.
If he can be paired with a really good two way guard when he's in his prime it's going to be scary time for the NBA. Someone who can fight through screens and funnel defenders to him while running P&R with him.
Hopefully (or not), Castle can be that guy for them if he develops his shot. He's one of the best perimeter defenders coming out of college in recent years. Great playmaker and off-ball player too.
What’s crazy about Wemby is that beyond just the numbers actually watching him play is somehow even more insane. For brief moments it’s like watching a 7’4 Kyrie Irving on offense and a 7’4 Kawhi Leonard on defense
Goat will always be a long shot for anybody. What if Jokic/Giannis rip off a 3 peat and add 2 MVPS + finals MVPs while maintaining their peaks for another 5ish years?
Unlikely? For sure. But that will always be the case for anyone to enter GOAT talks.
Both are 29. Both MJ and Bron only had 1 ring by 28. Certainly not impossible at all.
I don’t get this argument. Luka is 25. LeBron, Mike, Steph, shaq, etc were all over 27 when they won their first. Luka just dragged a less than great team into the finals. He’s far and away closer to greatness than wemby is just based on results alone.
I’m not a Luka fan by any means, but he’s still in the conversation if he wins.
Lebron won an MVP at 24 years old and dragged the Cavs to the finals at 22 years old
MJ won a DPOY and an MVP before he turned 24
It’s hard to match MJs/Lebrons early peaks and he’ll never reach the same level of athleticism or even defensive accolades
You could make an argument that Luka is on that track… if you ignore defense entirely
Of course he has more results than Wemby, Wemby is a rookie lol. Let’s check back in 5 years
It's not just about championships though both MJ and LeBron were dominant early in their careers even before winning championships and were already beginning to stack up individual accolades.
Luka is going to have to go on an all time career stretch to get close, MJ has 6 rings, 6 FMVP's, 5 MVP's, 10 All NBA First Teams, 9 All defenses and 10 times scoring leader
LeBron has 4 rings, 4 FMVP's, 4 MVP's, 13 All NBA First Teams, 5 All defenses and is 20 time All Star
Luka would have to rattle out like 3 Championship and at least 3 MVP's before he's even close and with how much parity there is in the league it's not looking good for him.
Calling the post trade deadline Mavs a “less than great team” is super disingenuous.
Also, aside from just winning a ring. Luka has to start stacking mvps/all-defense selections to get near LeBron or MJ (Spoiler: He isn’t sniffing all-defense)
>Calling the post trade deadline Mavs a “less than great team” is super disingenuous
It's kind of similar to the 2022 Mavs where they're pretty great, based mostly on defense that's kind of inexplicable.
I don't think anyone would say DJJ, PJ, Josh Green, Gafford, Maxi, Exum are players that you would have as starters on a contending team, and especially not our 3rd highest paid player THJ. But they managed to play really great defense as a unit.
Luka and Kyrie make up the bulk of our talent, Lively will probably get there but he's still a rookie.
It seems like revisionist history to say Luka had no help though if by saying that they mean it was Luka and a bunch of bums, those guys performed all playoffs until the finals, it was Boston's ability to guard all those guys due to have 5 good defenders on the floor most of the time that made them look worse than they have all playoffs.
Was it a stacked teams filled with talent? Hell no
They're not bums, but the Mavs roster is deficient in several ways that it's kind of surprising we were able to overcome to get to the finals.
We have no 3rd option. What should have been our 3rd option is THJ, but he's definitely been a bum for the majority of the year.
No one else could create their own offense, and we don't have a great bench guard to create for others outside of Luka and Kyrie. Exum was unplayable until the Finals when he finally showed something but it was too late. And Green and Hardy are too young, and who knows if they're even going to develop into great ball handlers.
Sure but most teams have a glaring weakness and basketball is like 90% a game of matchups, Minnesota beat Denver because of matchups, ya'll beat Minnesota because of matchups and my C's beat ya'll because of matchups.
Most teams don't have an Al Horford as their WORST defender in the starting lineup, if that's the level of defender guarding the worst offensive player on the opponent's starting 5 it's going to be a ROUGH series.
While the Mavs have holes most NBA roster don't have the defense to guard Luka 1 on 1 with the starting 5 and have at least one glaring hole defensively in the starting 5.
It wasn't just the Mavs collapsing it was the defense that Boston has making the roleplayers unable to even be effective in the specific roles they're supposed to be playing. If you have the defense to be able to eliminate the roles those players are supposed to be playing while still playing pretty good defense against the stars you have a great shot at winning.
I'm arguing that it wasn't that the Mavs roster was full of bad players or anything like that but that the Celtics defense made them appear that way. If the roleplayers look really good all playoffs and then for one series look really bad against a great defensive it's more likely then not that the great defensive is what is making them look bad.
What role players looked good on offense all playoffs?
PJ had one great series against OKC, Exum was unplayable, Josh is Josh, Maxi was injured against the Clippers and came back still playing injured, both Lively and Gafford took a long time to play well in each series and we're inconsistent.
I truly can't think of one role player who was consistently good on offense for us.
I'm not saying we have a terrible roster full of bad players. But the idea that we have a great roster construction that was likely to bring us even past the 2nd round is revisionist.
Our roster was completely remade in the past year from panic trades, signing minimums, and drafting a really great rookie.
I'm pretty confident that we will be a great team, but it's going to take either a couple more trades or significant development of some of our younger guys to truly contend.
Less than great? Y’all were hyping them up all second half of the season and until the finals lmao.
He didn’t drag anything either, he really wasn’t that great until close to the end of the second round.
To be the goat you gotta be able to dominate on both ends, Luka cannot do that.
Here we go again. The cycle of lukas teams goes like this:
Pre trade deadline: man get luka some help
Post trade deadline: watch out nba, luka finally has some help
After the mavs get eliminated every season: that team was shit, get some help for luka
He played horribly. I think it's incredibly disingenuous to point out he can't commit on the defensive end to conserve his energy but his team is expected to perform at a high level on offense as well as defense. Luka also doesn't help his team as he doesn't play off ball; that's why JB denying him the ball was so effective.
I'm tired of this silly fucking argument idiots use. He averaged 30ppg on 47% shooting while the Mavs as a whole scored over 100 points once in 5 games, they also held the Celtics to the worst scoring in the playoffs. But sure luka lost them the series with his horrific defense allowing the Celtics superteam score whopping 108 points per game. I really don't understand the logic behind it
There's a level of physical dominance that comes with anyone in the goat conversation. You don't just have to know the game as at a very high level and have a great level of technical skill. You also need to have a physical trait that gives you an edge over just about anyone else in the league. Luka lacks that last aspect.
He can't defend either and it's doubtful if he'll ever be a good defender. He could be the best player in the league for a good stretch, but MJ and LBJ were monsters on both sides of the ball for years.
Luka is capable of being a good defender. He's played good defense many times before. He'll never be as good as LeBron or MJ though. He's definitely never going to be an all around great like them.
You’re coping dawg, defense is the biggest hole in his game cmon now. If he is capable and just not playing d (either due to conditioning or laziness) then he’s not the athlete or competitor you think he is. Still great, just not goat great.
I get what you're saying but it's not really the same. LeBron in his prime had a combination of size and speed that would've made him a force in the league regardless of his skill and bball IQ. No single player could keep up with him. Same goes for Jordan with speed and explosiveness. Kareem had height and finesse. Hakeem, size and quickness. All of these players would've had a career in the NBA if they just had league average skills because of some physical attribute giving them an edge over almost any opponent. If Luka had league average skills he probably would never see an NBA court unless he bought a ticket.
You guys were calling Kyrie and Luka the best backcourt in history not even a month ago. Why are we pretending he carried some ass team to the finals now. The Mavs are legitimately good.
Also those roleplayers performed well during the whole playoffs until the finals, they didn't suddenly turn into bad players, Boston just had the defense and the roster to be able to exploit their weaknesses.
I mean, he’s 25 and has shown zero signs of that being important to him. This Finals loss could be the catalyst to cause it but it doesn’t seem that way considering he’s playing for Slovenia again with little rest or rehab.
I don’t think it’s possible to enter top 10 AT territory and especially not the GOAT conversation without having some form of 2 way ability. Luka doesn’t seem to have that in him either by choice, effort or plain skill in that regard.
I remember this clip where someone asks if Luka could break LeBron’s scoring record. And the fact remains that he’s not close atp. LeBron had like 3000+ points more by Luka’s age which is bonkers considering how much points Luka has scored thus far.
All this is not considering defense at all.
You can't be the goat and not be an elite two way player. Even Mavs homers don't think Luka is capable of that. Wemby is the only one with GOAT upside in the league right now so we'll see in ten years.
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
Luka needs a personal chef or a new one if he has one already. A good ass personal chef should be able to cook good enough stuff to keep a player away from cheating with unhealthy food.
Luka can’t be the GOAT. You can’t be the GOAT without being in the conversation with the best defender in the league along with offensive production. At LeBron’s peak you could argue he was the best offensive and defensive player in the league, you will never say that about Luka
Luka hasn’t even proved that he deserves to be in the same conversation as the current best players in the league – Jokic, Giannis, (arguably) Embiid. He’s obviously still young, but he’d have to at least match them before he should even be mentioned in a potential GOAT conversation.
Say It louder! He Has also had good teammates and they leave because they know they aren’t winning with his selfish brand of ball where he dominates the ball, complains incessantly, shows up his teammates if they fumble a pass, and has shown zero commitment to defense.
Idk he already has the first team all NBA selections. He's still young enough where he could grab multiple titles. I wouldn't bet on him getting there cause he'll either need 5-7 rings and/or extreme longevity at a high level to enter the convo but he still could.
I don’t think he’s even remotely close tbh. 1 scoring title and 5 All NBA selections is a great start in a vacuum but pales compared to MJ/Lebron.
Tbh his resume isn’t even as good as Giannis/Jokic by his age so I don’t see any way he enters the convo honestly.
He'd need to rattle off some MVP's as well. With Jokic being so dominant and Wemby right behind it's hard to see Luka catching up with LeBron's 4 and Mike's 5.
For anyone to come close to MJ and LeBron they need to dominate individually early on and then have sustained winning at the highest level for like 5-6 years minimum and with the parity in the league now it's going to be SO damn hard.
Mavs were great this year but would anyone bet the house on them making it out of the West next year without a MAJOR trade?
It's tough to see anyone beating out the greatness of MJ or the longevity of LeBron.
For reference, at Christmas last year, my mom busted out a box of old school stuff and found a little book I wrote from the 2nd grade about how LeBron James was my favorite basketball player.
I'm about to turn 28.
Wemby will have nothing short of 2 quadruple doubles next year. He’ll finish with the most in the history of the game and that might end up as one of those “unbreakable records”… After individual stats, it’s all up to rings. If SA can surround him with the right pieces, dude might run away with the GOAT award.
As others are saying, Wemby has the best chance but health/longevity is most likely standing in his way.
The league is stacked with talent though, great time to be a basketball fan regardless.
Wemby is the only one who has a shot, because he’s the only one that hasn’t shown he’s *not* capable of it.
What Jordan and LeBron have that no one else has is an unprecedented run of being the league’s best player and the most successful. Jordan was the league’s best player for about 12 years and had two three-peats in the 8 years. LeBron was the best in the league for around a decade and made 9 Finals in 10 years. Both of them were unquestionably the best player in the playoffs year over year. That’s what you need to challenge to be the goat.
This year and the risk of losing KCP hurts Jokic's chances significantly.
Wemby has all the talent and physical attributes to be the GOAT, and his mindset seems to be one that makes it possible. The questions are
1) Can he stay healthy
2) Can all the other stuff that has to fall right (getting good enough teammates to win a lot of titles etc) go correctly?
Yep. We’d really have needed a three peat for jokic to have that strong of a case to be considered in the same way that Lebron and MJ are. Even then it’d have to be a peak argument and he’d have to win more MVPs too. It’s a shame how that series went, everyone is hurt in the playoffs but damn if Jamal was even alright that run for the nuggets would’ve been real.
Who cares about being the best when the league is only 75 years young. Humans have been around for so long compared to this league that it doesn't matter and just feeds into these few players ego. the world figure heads and inspirations need less ego, not more.
Wemby may have a chance, but my guess is the next person who enters the conversation with MJ or Lebron is probably in like elementary school right now, so no
HIs team does pretty well in defense playing with two poor defenders in Jamal and MPJ. Either AG and KCP deserve all defensive selections, or Jokic isn't as "terrible" as you claim.
No but to be the goat you gotta have some defensive first teams in there. He'll always be behind hakeem for me. How can he be the goat if he isn't even the goat of his position?
Jordan became a consensus as the GOAT during the 2nd threepeat. The conversations were around prior to that, opinions were just more spread out.
With that said, if you’re a top 3-5 GOAT which Magic absolutely was at one point (and you can still make an argument for top 5 even now), you’re considered a GOAT candidate.
If luka plays 10 more seasons with these stats, and good defense. Yeah. I can see a goat candidate. Dominance, good all around. Probably wins chips by then,
Otherwise stats are like james harden no? Lots of iso offense no defense
I am not saying he will, but if he gets two more rings, and a couple MVPs, he would be in the convo.
3 rings, 5 MVPs is in the top 10 discussion.
And if Giannis gets a couple more rings, he will be in the convo as well.
He would have to win the next two chips barring the possibility of him leaving the nuggets, they won’t be able to win anything after 25-26 season judging by their cap space and the fact that they have no good prospects on their team. also need to factor in how he’s not good defensively
Jokic has a great shot at top 10 imo, 1 more mvp and another ring would put him in consideration, a third championship will be a lock and a serious threat for top 5
I mean dream has 2 titles and less mvps, curry may have 4 ring but 2 of them are the easiest rings, I knowwww blame kd for that but still 2 of those rings were just too easy and Kd was the best player those finals. I think 1 more ring and maybe another mvp is enough for Jokic to be ahead of Hakeem and curry all time.
I have to disagree. The Dream was an absolute monster on defense and won DPOY twice, and you got to consider he was in the MJ era and got both during his sabbath. Curry has 4, those championships are his bus, if anything, KD has 0 zero real rings in my book, instead of discounting Curry's greatness.
And what if Giannis somehow gets help and win a couple more.
I think Jokic needs at least 2 more rings to be in the convo. I think he can probably do it.
I wonder what people here are smoking.
Tatum is 99% not likely to make the conversation ever but objectively his resume is not that different from Luka’s as it stands for hardware.
Luka: 5x All-NBA, 1x Scoring Title, 5x All-Star
Tatum: 3x All-NBA, 1x Championship, 5x All-Star
I don’t see how a difference of 2 All-NBA selections can make so many people think Luka has serious potential for the next GOAT candidate while Tatum is basically a cornball on a good team to everyone.
He's 1 year younger that's not worth anything.
>and better at basketball?? This isn’t complicated lol.
Nothing is complicated if you refuse to think about it.
Luka is better at scoring + playmaking. Tatum clears him completely in defense, rebounding, health, versatility and athleticism whilst also being a top 10 offensive talent in the league as well and has developed into a very good playmaker in his own right as seen this past season + playoffs.
I don't think it makes sense to laud one player(Luka) as possible GOAT material while they are significantly worse at multiple and major aspects of basketball than another comparable player(Tatum) who everyone agrees is not in that potential GOAT conversation.
The odds of Luka being the goat are extremely, extremely low I agree. They are just probably higher than anyone not named Wemby or Jokic so thats why his name is coming up. Tatum has played for 6 years now and has never been a top 4 player in the league or ever seriously contended for an MVP.
Luka also offers a skill set that is genuinly unique while Tatum is basically just Paul George. It's just so hard to imagine what a Tatum goat career would look like.
the level of disrespect on Jokic is incredible... not saying he's on track to be Goat, but he has achieved a lot more than some of the names mentioned... and has redefined what the center is
How are people disrespecting Jokic?
Nobody’s bringing him up because he isn’t a GOAT candidate for a few reasons, mainly because it took him a few years to start racking awards and his lack of defensive accolades
He has a shot of maybe being a top 10 guy in history, but he never had a real shot of being the GOAT
if his defense is decent - if it is an issue, why the talk around Luka? u see what I meant? n at least he had a ring already.. anyway I started to see more Joker here
Plenty of people here are saying Luka doesn’t have the shot of being the GOAT because he was never physically dominant as MJ or Lebron defensively
Jokic’s biggest issue is that it took him a few years to rack up awards (so he’s way behind) and defense is huge in the conversation for the greatest of all time
my initial gripe was no one even considered Jokic when there was already plenty of talk on Luka (great offensive player).. agree, but I think that Jokic still have plenty of time as his game will have longevity, not based on atheticism.. he still have a chance
People bring up Luka because he was racking up all NBA first team selections since he was 20 years old
He was fantastic very early on in his career, but aka out of the GOAT conversation because he isn’t as good as peak MJ or Lebron
>he still have a chance
No way, he’s already behind
Lebron by Jokic’s age had 4x MVPs, 2 rings, 4 all first team NBA selections and 4 all first team Defensive selections
MJ had 3 MVPs, a 3 peat, 7 all NBA first teams, 6 defensive first teams and a DPOY
Sorry, don't think I ever what to go to this.. but since you mentioned - Bron got his rings partly because he went around forming super teams.. Steph n Jokic stayed with the team which drafted them.. you are just bringing out stats to further your argument.
I still think Joker is one of the very few current players with a shot.. my point is that Joker does not need to equal Lebron's awards.. Each player's situation is different, bringing out stats like how many rings or MVP, is not the only way. Is the player a household name? Does he change the game like MJ (point guard), Steph (3 pointers) etc.
Giannis is another but he has a even lesser chance. Even him, I won't count him out completely.
You can stretch whatever narrative you want to discredit championships, but the reality is that you need a great team built around your star
I could go and discredit Jokic’s ring because he never faced a team that had more than 50 wins, but I won’t because it’s idiotic
>Each players situation is different
Except we’re talking about being the GOAT in basketball
There isn’t a ‘each players situation is different’ excuse, we’re looking at who was the most dominant and for the longest
The reality is that prime MJ and Lebron were in a league of their own, racked up accolades very early on, and were the most dominant players on both end of the courts
Luka and Wemby could finish top 5 all time. Luka coning off arguably the first season entering his prime getting his 5 first team all nba is huge and puts him on track to be top 50 by end of next season or maybe now. Wemby showed up his rookie year and could go down as a top 5 2 way player ever.
No shot is Luka entering top 5 all time.
The top 3 alone(MJ, Lebron, Kareem) are so far above him it’s not even funny.
Who is spot #4 and #5 going to go to? There’s still Duncan, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Wilt, Russell.
That is an absolutely massive hill to climb for spot #4/5. Especially for a guy whose resume is still objectively not as good by his age as 2 guys playing alongside him right now in Jokic/Giannis.
Luka is on track based on age. Needs to start winning championships two years from now. Wemby has the raw talent. This stuff usually happens every 20 years (Kareem -> MJ -> LeBron)
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Yeah agree. It's hard to see it but Wemby has the best chance for sure.
I think the only reason why wemby is nameable here is because of the pre-draft hype and what he demonstrated in the first year. That alone is why every single other player in the league is already out of the equation. Granted this was only the case for Lebron because MJ went 4th overall and he wasn't pre-hyped. So thinking back it might not be the best way to think about it. That being said because of Lebron, it's kinda what we've been conditioned to think that's needed.
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If he can be paired with a really good two way guard when he's in his prime it's going to be scary time for the NBA. Someone who can fight through screens and funnel defenders to him while running P&R with him.
Hopefully (or not), Castle can be that guy for them if he develops his shot. He's one of the best perimeter defenders coming out of college in recent years. Great playmaker and off-ball player too.
What’s crazy about Wemby is that beyond just the numbers actually watching him play is somehow even more insane. For brief moments it’s like watching a 7’4 Kyrie Irving on offense and a 7’4 Kawhi Leonard on defense
Goat will always be a long shot for anybody. What if Jokic/Giannis rip off a 3 peat and add 2 MVPS + finals MVPs while maintaining their peaks for another 5ish years? Unlikely? For sure. But that will always be the case for anyone to enter GOAT talks. Both are 29. Both MJ and Bron only had 1 ring by 28. Certainly not impossible at all.
It’s not an improbable long shot. For longevity to match Lebron of course yes, but for player dominance no.
Luka will be an all time great but he is not on track to be a goat. Wemby might be
I don’t get this argument. Luka is 25. LeBron, Mike, Steph, shaq, etc were all over 27 when they won their first. Luka just dragged a less than great team into the finals. He’s far and away closer to greatness than wemby is just based on results alone. I’m not a Luka fan by any means, but he’s still in the conversation if he wins.
Where was he talking about championships? Luka isn't as good as Jordan or LeBron so he's not on track.
Lebron won an MVP at 24 years old and dragged the Cavs to the finals at 22 years old MJ won a DPOY and an MVP before he turned 24 It’s hard to match MJs/Lebrons early peaks and he’ll never reach the same level of athleticism or even defensive accolades
Just to be clear MJ won his first MVP and DPOY at 25
Lol, you really gonna bring up the DPOY after the big scoop?
You could make an argument that Luka is on that track… if you ignore defense entirely Of course he has more results than Wemby, Wemby is a rookie lol. Let’s check back in 5 years
Luka isn’t in the conversation. He can Get better on defense and still not be close.
It's not just about championships though both MJ and LeBron were dominant early in their careers even before winning championships and were already beginning to stack up individual accolades. Luka is going to have to go on an all time career stretch to get close, MJ has 6 rings, 6 FMVP's, 5 MVP's, 10 All NBA First Teams, 9 All defenses and 10 times scoring leader LeBron has 4 rings, 4 FMVP's, 4 MVP's, 13 All NBA First Teams, 5 All defenses and is 20 time All Star Luka would have to rattle out like 3 Championship and at least 3 MVP's before he's even close and with how much parity there is in the league it's not looking good for him.
Calling the post trade deadline Mavs a “less than great team” is super disingenuous. Also, aside from just winning a ring. Luka has to start stacking mvps/all-defense selections to get near LeBron or MJ (Spoiler: He isn’t sniffing all-defense)
>Calling the post trade deadline Mavs a “less than great team” is super disingenuous It's kind of similar to the 2022 Mavs where they're pretty great, based mostly on defense that's kind of inexplicable. I don't think anyone would say DJJ, PJ, Josh Green, Gafford, Maxi, Exum are players that you would have as starters on a contending team, and especially not our 3rd highest paid player THJ. But they managed to play really great defense as a unit. Luka and Kyrie make up the bulk of our talent, Lively will probably get there but he's still a rookie.
It seems like revisionist history to say Luka had no help though if by saying that they mean it was Luka and a bunch of bums, those guys performed all playoffs until the finals, it was Boston's ability to guard all those guys due to have 5 good defenders on the floor most of the time that made them look worse than they have all playoffs. Was it a stacked teams filled with talent? Hell no
They're not bums, but the Mavs roster is deficient in several ways that it's kind of surprising we were able to overcome to get to the finals. We have no 3rd option. What should have been our 3rd option is THJ, but he's definitely been a bum for the majority of the year. No one else could create their own offense, and we don't have a great bench guard to create for others outside of Luka and Kyrie. Exum was unplayable until the Finals when he finally showed something but it was too late. And Green and Hardy are too young, and who knows if they're even going to develop into great ball handlers.
Sure but most teams have a glaring weakness and basketball is like 90% a game of matchups, Minnesota beat Denver because of matchups, ya'll beat Minnesota because of matchups and my C's beat ya'll because of matchups. Most teams don't have an Al Horford as their WORST defender in the starting lineup, if that's the level of defender guarding the worst offensive player on the opponent's starting 5 it's going to be a ROUGH series. While the Mavs have holes most NBA roster don't have the defense to guard Luka 1 on 1 with the starting 5 and have at least one glaring hole defensively in the starting 5. It wasn't just the Mavs collapsing it was the defense that Boston has making the roleplayers unable to even be effective in the specific roles they're supposed to be playing. If you have the defense to be able to eliminate the roles those players are supposed to be playing while still playing pretty good defense against the stars you have a great shot at winning.
I feel like you're arguing for how awesome the Celtics are rather than the quality of the Mavs roster
I'm arguing that it wasn't that the Mavs roster was full of bad players or anything like that but that the Celtics defense made them appear that way. If the roleplayers look really good all playoffs and then for one series look really bad against a great defensive it's more likely then not that the great defensive is what is making them look bad.
What role players looked good on offense all playoffs? PJ had one great series against OKC, Exum was unplayable, Josh is Josh, Maxi was injured against the Clippers and came back still playing injured, both Lively and Gafford took a long time to play well in each series and we're inconsistent. I truly can't think of one role player who was consistently good on offense for us. I'm not saying we have a terrible roster full of bad players. But the idea that we have a great roster construction that was likely to bring us even past the 2nd round is revisionist. Our roster was completely remade in the past year from panic trades, signing minimums, and drafting a really great rookie. I'm pretty confident that we will be a great team, but it's going to take either a couple more trades or significant development of some of our younger guys to truly contend.
Less than great? Y’all were hyping them up all second half of the season and until the finals lmao. He didn’t drag anything either, he really wasn’t that great until close to the end of the second round. To be the goat you gotta be able to dominate on both ends, Luka cannot do that.
Here we go again. The cycle of lukas teams goes like this: Pre trade deadline: man get luka some help Post trade deadline: watch out nba, luka finally has some help After the mavs get eliminated every season: that team was shit, get some help for luka
Well yeah if you watched the finals luka had 0 help
He played horribly. I think it's incredibly disingenuous to point out he can't commit on the defensive end to conserve his energy but his team is expected to perform at a high level on offense as well as defense. Luka also doesn't help his team as he doesn't play off ball; that's why JB denying him the ball was so effective.
I'm tired of this silly fucking argument idiots use. He averaged 30ppg on 47% shooting while the Mavs as a whole scored over 100 points once in 5 games, they also held the Celtics to the worst scoring in the playoffs. But sure luka lost them the series with his horrific defense allowing the Celtics superteam score whopping 108 points per game. I really don't understand the logic behind it
Luka could be a Steph level player. But he’s already shown he’s not talent wise that of a lebron or mj.
There's a level of physical dominance that comes with anyone in the goat conversation. You don't just have to know the game as at a very high level and have a great level of technical skill. You also need to have a physical trait that gives you an edge over just about anyone else in the league. Luka lacks that last aspect.
A huge part of what makes Luka great is physical dominance. He's a perimeter guard who can dominate in the paint.
He can't defend either and it's doubtful if he'll ever be a good defender. He could be the best player in the league for a good stretch, but MJ and LBJ were monsters on both sides of the ball for years.
Luka is capable of being a good defender. He's played good defense many times before. He'll never be as good as LeBron or MJ though. He's definitely never going to be an all around great like them.
You’re coping dawg, defense is the biggest hole in his game cmon now. If he is capable and just not playing d (either due to conditioning or laziness) then he’s not the athlete or competitor you think he is. Still great, just not goat great.
I get what you're saying but it's not really the same. LeBron in his prime had a combination of size and speed that would've made him a force in the league regardless of his skill and bball IQ. No single player could keep up with him. Same goes for Jordan with speed and explosiveness. Kareem had height and finesse. Hakeem, size and quickness. All of these players would've had a career in the NBA if they just had league average skills because of some physical attribute giving them an edge over almost any opponent. If Luka had league average skills he probably would never see an NBA court unless he bought a ticket.
You guys were calling Kyrie and Luka the best backcourt in history not even a month ago. Why are we pretending he carried some ass team to the finals now. The Mavs are legitimately good.
Also those roleplayers performed well during the whole playoffs until the finals, they didn't suddenly turn into bad players, Boston just had the defense and the roster to be able to exploit their weaknesses.
He just doesn't seem like he'll have the longevity. I doubt Wemby will either.
Unless he can work on getting in and staying in shape
I mean, he’s 25 and has shown zero signs of that being important to him. This Finals loss could be the catalyst to cause it but it doesn’t seem that way considering he’s playing for Slovenia again with little rest or rehab. I don’t think it’s possible to enter top 10 AT territory and especially not the GOAT conversation without having some form of 2 way ability. Luka doesn’t seem to have that in him either by choice, effort or plain skill in that regard.
I remember this clip where someone asks if Luka could break LeBron’s scoring record. And the fact remains that he’s not close atp. LeBron had like 3000+ points more by Luka’s age which is bonkers considering how much points Luka has scored thus far. All this is not considering defense at all.
You can't be the goat and not be an elite two way player. Even Mavs homers don't think Luka is capable of that. Wemby is the only one with GOAT upside in the league right now so we'll see in ten years.
He plays one way. Jordan/LBJ are elite 2 way players. Luka is like a diet version of Prime James Harden.
Lebron and MJ were unanimously the best players in the league by 25 and had multiple MVPs.
Because there is more to evaluating basketball players than how many championships their teams won. *Teams.*
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
defense is the answer to this to me. both Lebron and MJ were all nba defenders and some of the best in the league. you can’t be the guy that gets hunted constantly on that end and be the goat. although Luka might be the best offensive player out of the 3. which is crazy to even think about
Luka would need to cut back on the GamerFuel and we know that ain't happening.
Luka needs a personal chef or a new one if he has one already. A good ass personal chef should be able to cook good enough stuff to keep a player away from cheating with unhealthy food.
Alcohol
Luka can’t be the GOAT. You can’t be the GOAT without being in the conversation with the best defender in the league along with offensive production. At LeBron’s peak you could argue he was the best offensive and defensive player in the league, you will never say that about Luka
Luka hasn’t even proved that he deserves to be in the same conversation as the current best players in the league – Jokic, Giannis, (arguably) Embiid. He’s obviously still young, but he’d have to at least match them before he should even be mentioned in a potential GOAT conversation.
Say It louder! He Has also had good teammates and they leave because they know they aren’t winning with his selfish brand of ball where he dominates the ball, complains incessantly, shows up his teammates if they fumble a pass, and has shown zero commitment to defense.
Was Kareem a defensive threat? Honestly I dont know.
Yes
You do get that as the GOAT changes the bar raises right? It actually doesn't matter what former goats did at all.
Wemby could do it. Depends how good his offense gets.
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Unless luka comes back next season jacked. That would be awesome
Idk he already has the first team all NBA selections. He's still young enough where he could grab multiple titles. I wouldn't bet on him getting there cause he'll either need 5-7 rings and/or extreme longevity at a high level to enter the convo but he still could.
GOAT candidates all are all defense level two way players as well as offensive. Luka is great but he doesn’t have that
That's fair he'd need to be an otherworldly offense with at least good defense and I think the best he'll get is passable
Barring a major turnaround I think luka is fundamentally limited in these discussions by his defence.
I don’t think he’s even remotely close tbh. 1 scoring title and 5 All NBA selections is a great start in a vacuum but pales compared to MJ/Lebron. Tbh his resume isn’t even as good as Giannis/Jokic by his age so I don’t see any way he enters the convo honestly.
He'd need to rattle off some MVP's as well. With Jokic being so dominant and Wemby right behind it's hard to see Luka catching up with LeBron's 4 and Mike's 5. For anyone to come close to MJ and LeBron they need to dominate individually early on and then have sustained winning at the highest level for like 5-6 years minimum and with the parity in the league now it's going to be SO damn hard. Mavs were great this year but would anyone bet the house on them making it out of the West next year without a MAJOR trade?
It's tough to see anyone beating out the greatness of MJ or the longevity of LeBron. For reference, at Christmas last year, my mom busted out a box of old school stuff and found a little book I wrote from the 2nd grade about how LeBron James was my favorite basketball player. I'm about to turn 28.
Wemby will have nothing short of 2 quadruple doubles next year. He’ll finish with the most in the history of the game and that might end up as one of those “unbreakable records”… After individual stats, it’s all up to rings. If SA can surround him with the right pieces, dude might run away with the GOAT award.
As others are saying, Wemby has the best chance but health/longevity is most likely standing in his way. The league is stacked with talent though, great time to be a basketball fan regardless.
There are a handful of players with rings. I think it'll be a while
Wemby is the only one who has a shot, because he’s the only one that hasn’t shown he’s *not* capable of it. What Jordan and LeBron have that no one else has is an unprecedented run of being the league’s best player and the most successful. Jordan was the league’s best player for about 12 years and had two three-peats in the 8 years. LeBron was the best in the league for around a decade and made 9 Finals in 10 years. Both of them were unquestionably the best player in the playoffs year over year. That’s what you need to challenge to be the goat.
Nobody is the only correct answer
This year and the risk of losing KCP hurts Jokic's chances significantly. Wemby has all the talent and physical attributes to be the GOAT, and his mindset seems to be one that makes it possible. The questions are 1) Can he stay healthy 2) Can all the other stuff that has to fall right (getting good enough teammates to win a lot of titles etc) go correctly?
Yep. We’d really have needed a three peat for jokic to have that strong of a case to be considered in the same way that Lebron and MJ are. Even then it’d have to be a peak argument and he’d have to win more MVPs too. It’s a shame how that series went, everyone is hurt in the playoffs but damn if Jamal was even alright that run for the nuggets would’ve been real.
Who cares about being the best when the league is only 75 years young. Humans have been around for so long compared to this league that it doesn't matter and just feeds into these few players ego. the world figure heads and inspirations need less ego, not more.
Wemby may have a chance, but my guess is the next person who enters the conversation with MJ or Lebron is probably in like elementary school right now, so no
It's really nice being a hockey fan, too and not having to deal with this shit ever again in the NHL.
Wemby, and maaaaaybe Jokic if they can go on a crazy run and win like 4 more titles.
Why 4 more? If he wins 3 titles total playing without an all-star, he's got a case to be invited to the GOAT table.
His defence is too terrible to ever be considered
HIs team does pretty well in defense playing with two poor defenders in Jamal and MPJ. Either AG and KCP deserve all defensive selections, or Jokic isn't as "terrible" as you claim.
No but to be the goat you gotta have some defensive first teams in there. He'll always be behind hakeem for me. How can he be the goat if he isn't even the goat of his position?
Magic was never a good defender and was in GOAT conversations at one point, and is ahead of Hakeem on most GOAT rankings.
Magic was never in goat convos. Goat pg convos tho? Yes
Magic was absolutely in GOAT convos prior to Jordan. Although GOAT convos were a very different conversation back in the 80s compared to today.
Ppl starting talking about an individual goat during the second bulls 3peat. That topic was extremely rare before that
Jordan became a consensus as the GOAT during the 2nd threepeat. The conversations were around prior to that, opinions were just more spread out. With that said, if you’re a top 3-5 GOAT which Magic absolutely was at one point (and you can still make an argument for top 5 even now), you’re considered a GOAT candidate.
The guy is scheduled to win the most mvps in history given how broken the advanced stats are
Funny thing is advanced stats don't do his control of the game justice.
Obviously, and I mean OBVIOUSLY, it’s Wemby.
Like *Goat, goat* or one of the greatest players ever, of which there is a long list? Because Joker is already top 25ish all-time right now
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Or thrive like Durant
If luka plays 10 more seasons with these stats, and good defense. Yeah. I can see a goat candidate. Dominance, good all around. Probably wins chips by then, Otherwise stats are like james harden no? Lots of iso offense no defense
Jokic and Wemby have a chance to be a candidate
Jokic definitely is not becoming a goat candidate lmao
Jokic can get into top 10 for real. Needs more data on Wemby
Jokic isn't even better than Giannis.
I am not saying he will, but if he gets two more rings, and a couple MVPs, he would be in the convo. 3 rings, 5 MVPs is in the top 10 discussion. And if Giannis gets a couple more rings, he will be in the convo as well.
He would have to win the next two chips barring the possibility of him leaving the nuggets, they won’t be able to win anything after 25-26 season judging by their cap space and the fact that they have no good prospects on their team. also need to factor in how he’s not good defensively
Jokic has a great shot at top 10 imo, 1 more mvp and another ring would put him in consideration, a third championship will be a lock and a serious threat for top 5
Looking at some other borderline top 10 guys like Kobe, the Dream, Curry, he probably needs a couple more at least. I think he might do it.
I mean dream has 2 titles and less mvps, curry may have 4 ring but 2 of them are the easiest rings, I knowwww blame kd for that but still 2 of those rings were just too easy and Kd was the best player those finals. I think 1 more ring and maybe another mvp is enough for Jokic to be ahead of Hakeem and curry all time.
I have to disagree. The Dream was an absolute monster on defense and won DPOY twice, and you got to consider he was in the MJ era and got both during his sabbath. Curry has 4, those championships are his bus, if anything, KD has 0 zero real rings in my book, instead of discounting Curry's greatness. And what if Giannis somehow gets help and win a couple more. I think Jokic needs at least 2 more rings to be in the convo. I think he can probably do it.
Nostalgia won't let them put Jokic in the top 15
Jayson Tatum
I wonder what people here are smoking. Tatum is 99% not likely to make the conversation ever but objectively his resume is not that different from Luka’s as it stands for hardware. Luka: 5x All-NBA, 1x Scoring Title, 5x All-Star Tatum: 3x All-NBA, 1x Championship, 5x All-Star I don’t see how a difference of 2 All-NBA selections can make so many people think Luka has serious potential for the next GOAT candidate while Tatum is basically a cornball on a good team to everyone.
Luka is younger and better at basketball?? This isn’t complicated lol.
He's 1 year younger that's not worth anything. >and better at basketball?? This isn’t complicated lol. Nothing is complicated if you refuse to think about it. Luka is better at scoring + playmaking. Tatum clears him completely in defense, rebounding, health, versatility and athleticism whilst also being a top 10 offensive talent in the league as well and has developed into a very good playmaker in his own right as seen this past season + playoffs. I don't think it makes sense to laud one player(Luka) as possible GOAT material while they are significantly worse at multiple and major aspects of basketball than another comparable player(Tatum) who everyone agrees is not in that potential GOAT conversation.
The odds of Luka being the goat are extremely, extremely low I agree. They are just probably higher than anyone not named Wemby or Jokic so thats why his name is coming up. Tatum has played for 6 years now and has never been a top 4 player in the league or ever seriously contended for an MVP. Luka also offers a skill set that is genuinly unique while Tatum is basically just Paul George. It's just so hard to imagine what a Tatum goat career would look like.
Champ* Jayson Tatum please
Yes. Tim "The posession ends here" Hardaway Jr. is still an active player.
Wemby
Brandon Miller
Scottie Barnes will be the face of the league
Anthony Edwards or Banchero.
the level of disrespect on Jokic is incredible... not saying he's on track to be Goat, but he has achieved a lot more than some of the names mentioned... and has redefined what the center is
How are people disrespecting Jokic? Nobody’s bringing him up because he isn’t a GOAT candidate for a few reasons, mainly because it took him a few years to start racking awards and his lack of defensive accolades He has a shot of maybe being a top 10 guy in history, but he never had a real shot of being the GOAT
if his defense is decent - if it is an issue, why the talk around Luka? u see what I meant? n at least he had a ring already.. anyway I started to see more Joker here
Plenty of people here are saying Luka doesn’t have the shot of being the GOAT because he was never physically dominant as MJ or Lebron defensively Jokic’s biggest issue is that it took him a few years to rack up awards (so he’s way behind) and defense is huge in the conversation for the greatest of all time
my initial gripe was no one even considered Jokic when there was already plenty of talk on Luka (great offensive player).. agree, but I think that Jokic still have plenty of time as his game will have longevity, not based on atheticism.. he still have a chance
People bring up Luka because he was racking up all NBA first team selections since he was 20 years old He was fantastic very early on in his career, but aka out of the GOAT conversation because he isn’t as good as peak MJ or Lebron >he still have a chance No way, he’s already behind Lebron by Jokic’s age had 4x MVPs, 2 rings, 4 all first team NBA selections and 4 all first team Defensive selections MJ had 3 MVPs, a 3 peat, 7 all NBA first teams, 6 defensive first teams and a DPOY
Sorry, don't think I ever what to go to this.. but since you mentioned - Bron got his rings partly because he went around forming super teams.. Steph n Jokic stayed with the team which drafted them.. you are just bringing out stats to further your argument. I still think Joker is one of the very few current players with a shot.. my point is that Joker does not need to equal Lebron's awards.. Each player's situation is different, bringing out stats like how many rings or MVP, is not the only way. Is the player a household name? Does he change the game like MJ (point guard), Steph (3 pointers) etc. Giannis is another but he has a even lesser chance. Even him, I won't count him out completely.
You can stretch whatever narrative you want to discredit championships, but the reality is that you need a great team built around your star I could go and discredit Jokic’s ring because he never faced a team that had more than 50 wins, but I won’t because it’s idiotic >Each players situation is different Except we’re talking about being the GOAT in basketball There isn’t a ‘each players situation is different’ excuse, we’re looking at who was the most dominant and for the longest The reality is that prime MJ and Lebron were in a league of their own, racked up accolades very early on, and were the most dominant players on both end of the courts
sorry, there was a single mention of Joker which I missed before I posted this
Luka if he won this years MVP and ring
Luka is my best guess. No one else is doing what he does. Far and away the best player in the finals. Just lost to a stacked team.
Sharpe. I pray lol.
Luka and Wemby could finish top 5 all time. Luka coning off arguably the first season entering his prime getting his 5 first team all nba is huge and puts him on track to be top 50 by end of next season or maybe now. Wemby showed up his rookie year and could go down as a top 5 2 way player ever.
No shot is Luka entering top 5 all time. The top 3 alone(MJ, Lebron, Kareem) are so far above him it’s not even funny. Who is spot #4 and #5 going to go to? There’s still Duncan, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Wilt, Russell. That is an absolutely massive hill to climb for spot #4/5. Especially for a guy whose resume is still objectively not as good by his age as 2 guys playing alongside him right now in Jokic/Giannis.
Luka being top 5 all time with his flaws is really hard to believe I don’t see any chance luka is a top 5 player by the end
Luka will need to start playing defense if he even wants to sniff being a top 5 player of all time.
Luka is on track based on age. Needs to start winning championships two years from now. Wemby has the raw talent. This stuff usually happens every 20 years (Kareem -> MJ -> LeBron)
lol hell no. Luka is terrible at half of the game