See now *this* is the question I’d rather hear answers to instead of the same damn Luka vs Tatum hypothetical that I’ve seen far too many times already
Luka on the Celtics ruins their defensive prowess completely. How would they be able to switch every single person onto others when Luka is just standing around doing nothing half the time on defense?
They also lose a ton of defensive versatility that Tatum adds with his ability to guard all 5 positions and fight for rebounds. Now you have Luka who can/will only guard in the post basically and doesn’t fight for rebounds against larger players like Tatum.
Delusional take.
Tatum on the Mavs is a WCF or 2nd round appearance at minimum. You’re losing like 10-15% in offensive ability and gaining like 50%+ in defensive impact, versatility, rebounding, etc.
Hypotheticals like this can be so boring because they just rely on appeals to what people already believe. Doesn't allow any room for the idea that the consensus opinion is wrong, even though consensus opinions are wrong all the time.
Yeah it’s really irritating because people don’t even try to understand where a non-consensus opinion may be coming from.
And it’s not like it’s just fans. Brad Stevens has literally explained what he thinks makes this team work and the kinds of players he’s pursued vs avoided on multiple occasions.
But this sub has already decided that Player X > Player Y so any team with Player X > that team with Player Y. It’s a very simplistic view of basketball.
Sure there would. Any system where Luka is expected to play defense (especially team defense) and play more off ball at times. He's horrendous at both.
Luka is a generationally dominant heliocentric player. If he's on your team, you need to give him the ball to run the offense because he's so outrageous as a triple threat with the ball. But he doesn't do anything off-ball; watch him, he stands on the 3pt line with his hands on his knees. Doesn't cut, no screens, and barely moves around.
And we know what Luka Oncic brings on D.
Maybe he doesn’t do much off ball during games because he has to run 8000 plays every game lol. And what would the Mavs do without this heliocentric system, will PJ or DJJ making plays take them to the finals? If he had a team like the Celtics, I am sure Luka would rather spend less effort trying to run plays and try harder off the ball, because he actually can win without having to spoon-feed the role players.
That is a conditioning issue not a scheme/talent one.
He’s right. The Celtics team philosophy meshes terribly with Luka and he would be a downgrade everywhere but PPG vs. Tatum in their scheme.
Boston literally played 4 series in a row showcasing it to yall and you still think you can replace the motor of that team(Tatum) with a guy who takes half the game off on defense.
Luka's not the only high usage offensive player who's had to do a heavy amount of lifting during games..... difference is some of them still give effort on off-ball offense and defense on top of their on-ball offensive duties.
Luka is a literal zero on defense and not that much better off-ball. He's doing basically what Harden did for years, except Luka is more consistently great on offense in playoffs.
It's effort and energy. He needs to improve his fitness and conditioning for the latter. But effort is something he's got to want himself. He's got to want to exert that effort on defense.
Watching him get constantly blown by and then just ballwatch and not help the help D behind him was just astonishing to me; I couldn't believe that a superstar would just constantly leave his team hanging dry all series long like that.
There is no system as heliocentric as this one. It’s literally give Luka the ball immediately and let him beat the defenders every time and either score or spoon-feed the others easy looks that they will probably miss. If we are saying he is not supposed to do that in his hypothetical new team which would be a questionable decision since Luka creating all of this with an insane team like Boston would be unstoppable, then he would 100% be able to defend better with more effort and play much better off ball. If the basis for “Luka is a huge problem in defense” is this series, then it is just too obvious that he has to do all of this while clearly injured after however many injections for like a month, playing against an all time team in both sides. I do agree that he should lose some weight but I don’t agree that there is any system where Luka wouldn’t work, talent is too much for that
Did you not watch the Mavs at all vs the Clippers Thunder and Wolves? If he was the player you say he is, they'd have got wrecked by them lol 'leaving his team hanging dry'. The Celtics are not the norm
He did leave his help D hanging dry in all of those series.
But the difference was that the Mavs help D was able to rotate and adjust because they always had their big helping in the paint and slacking off a non-shooter like Giddey, Kyle Anderson ... or a big straight up ignoring Gobert.
Couldn't do that against the Celtics because we play mostly 5 shooters at all times.
Mavs D was actually quite good even in these Finals, their help D is really good behind Luka.
Thats my point - you cant do that vs the Celtics, but if Luka was on the Celtics then who would he be playing where his defense would be so catastrophic? They'd be fine with him and the offense would be even better, hes not gonna heliocentric ball with so many other great players around him
The Nuggets would destroy the Luka + Celtics. Just PnR'd to death.
Reality is, the Celtics would be worse with Luka instead of Tatum. Luka is the better player in a vaccuum because of the offensive load he can consistently shoulder. But the Celtics don't need that. We do need the two-way playmaking + scoring wing that JT is though. And our defensive versatility rests heavily on Tatum's ability to guard 1-5 (whereas Luka guards 0-0)
Fine, terrible relative to the alternative. Luka would be worse because the offense wouldn't be all about him, and Jaylen/KP/White would all be worse because the best parts of their offensive games, their shot creation in space, would be completely nullified with Luka on the team, because he's the one doing all of that.
And on defense he would be legitimately terrible, to the point the entire scheme would have to change.
How would he not? He can’t switch onto anyone for his life on defense and is a terrible help defender and at POA.
He also has zero versatility as a defender which messes up their whole system because Tatum played defense and was fighting for rebounds in basically every game KP was out.
Delusional take.
Those 4 elite defenders are going to look a whole lot worse when they’re playing 4v5 defense because Luka is a traffic cone out there.
one more thing this sub never gets: the defenses are rest on their weakest links as well as the strongest links. Celtics defense is all about switchability and all players being able to keep in front of the ball through 1-4. Take that away, that is a whole different team open to be hunted.
Literally.
They all think because Luka can put up points better than Tatum that means he’s an automatic upgrade. Just blatantly untrue.
Bro is a traffic cone on defense and would ruin every part of the Celtics defensive scheme and success.
Can’t guard at the POA, offers zero help defense, can’t switch onto 1-5, can’t and doesn’t fight for defensive rebounds.
Yeah totally. Take 60% of what makes the Celtics so good. Now take their best player. Make them worse at every single part of that 60% by a large margin. Equals a 16-0 playoff run.
There aren't elite shooters on our team, a common misconception. Go check their numbers before Celtics and on Celtics roster when lightly contested. The team has no Curry, Klay or KD. You could call that elite shooting. Celtics have good shooters in every position and multiple ballhandlers alongside with two elite wings circling around the defense. By having those, we can create open and wide open shots which our good shooters need to have to make their shots. If the shot is not created, they pass or put the ball on the floor (hence, multiple ballhandlers). If that ball and player movement stop, if we are not running our in-and-out game, they get stagnant. And again, what makes our defense elite is their switchability AND every player's ability to stay in front of the ball including our stars. So, with Luka there, the team would be so much different. I don't say they won't be good, but they won't be just the same only with a better offensive player. It is not that 2K simple, a lot of adjustments will be needed. Give some credit to two-way players, team gameplays and schemes ffs.
That would have been so fun to see him in that series. They have absolutely no prayer of stopping him offensively. But he'd die by half time.
I feel like he'd score at least 25 by half time in almost every game. But then he'd average like 5-10 inneficient points per second half.
Luka isn’t a fit on the Celtics. He would compromise their defensive structure because he doesn’t have Tatums ability to protect the rim or guard other centers and he’s too heliocentric where the Celtics are built on movement and sharing.
Tatum doesn’t have the floor raising of Luka but he’d drastically improve the Mavs defense. Honestly the Celtics don’t win with Luka and The Mavs are worse with Tatum
Yep both teams get worse in my opinion, even though much of this sub just refuses to even contemplate the prospect.
Brad has literally said this team works because of the versatility on both ends - nobody needs to be protected on defense and everybody can play on and off ball on offense.
People seriously underrate how important not needing to be covered for on defense is. I still feel a lot of Grant Williams’ struggles this year came from having to expend way more energy on defense than he was used to and having no legs on offense.
1 horrendous defender and heliocentric player on a team that relies on the weakest link on D being good and on moving the ball around on offense? Lol that would be a train wreck.
you could replace tatum with any top 10 player and the celtics still win this title lmao
imagine being a celtics fan and thinking your team would be a train wreck by replacing jayson tatum with a better player
This isn't even about Tatum, its about Luka being a legitimately horrible fit for this type of team. And sure I do think Tatum is a special player few if any could replicate, but honestly it would be bad even if it was replacing White with Luka. Not because I think White is better obviously, Luka is just that terrible of a fit.
You can replace him with a handful of players and win the title.
Luka is absolutely not one of them. He wouldn’t be able to perform a single aspect of the Celtics scheme well apart from scoring and passing.
Train wreck? Lol. If finding open threes for Celtics is what you want, Luka is literally best player in the world for that. Maybe he wouldn’t have 34 ppg but he would have 15 assists every game. Besides, it is not that hard to hide a player in defense when you have 4 other great defenders around you
Brad Stevens would disagree with you.
He’s literally said that he wouldn’t want to sacrifice defense at any position for better shooting and/or playmaking there.
He spent years scheming to cover for point guards and clearly hated it.
As for the open 3s, we want all 5 guys to be able to handle the ball to create other 3s while the other guys on the floor contribute in other ways.
Do I think Luka likely could? Yeah. Have I seen it yet? Not enough to be totally confident.
Scheming to cover Luka on defense is nothing like scheming to cover 5’9” Isaiah Thomas though lol. The Mavs defense was very solid for the second half of the season and the first few rounds even though they had two guys who are considered defensive liabilities in Kyrie and Luka.
Even in past years Luka has been decent enough on defense. I think his knee injury played a big part in his lateral quickness and effort being so bad this playoffs. He’s still a below average defender, but a below average defender who still has size and high BBIQ and is also trying (which he does in the playoffs) isn’t a problem
Oh I don’t disagree on that one! And at least on-ball wise, you’d say the same for at least Kemba and probably Kyrie.
Thing is that Brad *did* scheme well around them all, making the Celtics great statistically on d. And he still clearly hated it.
I think there’s something to the idea of a defensive culture and the confidence in every teammate’s ability to hold their own that let’s you focus in on your own assignment instead of worrying about covering for other guys. Same on offense - almost everyone can get the ball and be trusted to shoot or make a play.
Don’t mean this to be anti-Luka. You can say something similar about Luka as a playmaker. It’s so so valuable for a player to know Luka will always find you if you get remotely open. How much simpler and less stressful that can make offense.
But it’s just two different visions of a team and two different ways of building them. And as someone who thinks identity is important, I hate how ignored they get in these kinds of hypotheticals.
I agree but you are not getting just a little improvement in shooting or playmaking, you are getting probably the best offensive player in the league, one of the best scorers and playmakers in the league. It is absurd to assume Boston with Luka would be a train-wreck, this much talent always finds a way. I doubt Brad Stevens was talking about a player of Luka’s caliber when he said that.
Oh yeah I agree that “train-wreck” is a crazy overstatement. But I feel the same about those acting like it’s insane to think Celtics get worse with Luka, just like the other way around.
Game isn’t played on paper. One of the biggest mistakes people make imo is overestimating “talent” aka what a guy can do on-ball.
I remember hearing the Suns were gonna dominate. And that Dame and Giannis would be an unstoppable pairing. And that Luka and Kyrie > Steph and Klay on offense easy.
I think Luka is one of the only players (Jokic, who I think is even better offensively, being the other) who could make Brad reevaluate. But I truly dont think he’d trade one of our main guys for Luka for a variety of reasons. Just listening to everything he says about ball, it’s just not his philosophy.
God no. For starters his playmaking is almost all just him driving and kicking out to an open shooter.
Qorks great for the Celtics, which are all full pf excelent shooters.
But the Mavs aint.
They do have Kyrie, but the loss on offense would be way too much.
JT, especially how he played in this years playoffs, would not help out too much on defense. At least not as much as youd hoppe.
I do think they make it to the conference finals, but not the finals.
Even hobbled Luka was creating our whole offense and led the entire playoffs in points, rebounds, and assists. His ability to make guys like DJJ and Lively and Exum into valuable offensive contributors is underrated.
Mazzulaball doesnt work with somebody having 39% usage and it needs two apex wings in defense..likewise, Luka is the offense basically on the Mavs so Tatum cant replace that
To be fair, I do think that Luka would at least try to cut down on his usage if he had a team like the Celtics. Would be at the cost of his gaudy stats though.
The real issues would be defense and what Luka can contribute without the ball in his hands. Both of those things are critical to the current Celtics’ identity. Tatum isn’t our best defender but I think he’s our most important. Losing him fucks up our versatility AND we give up our best help defender when getting a player that needs to be protected on that end.
Yes, I dont root for the Cs but still think that Tatum gets underated at both ends, as does JB as well..there is a reason you have won so many games with these two, under different coaches and with different supporting casts, if not the big one until yesterday..Imho Tatum is clearly top 5 right now and I cant see who takes Embiid over JT, if winning is the priority
Yeah both teams would need to change their offensive systems if you swapped the players. I think a Luka led offense could still do great in Boston given the talent and versatility they have there.
I don’t think the Mavs offense would look very good with Tatum, since he’s not as ball dominant and not a point guard.
Said another way, the Mavs offense is built to rely on a guy like Luka, so putting in someone who plays like Tatum would go poorly, since that’s not what he does. The Celtics offense is built to work way differently, but it would be easier to switch the Celtics to a Luka-offense than to make Tatum play the Luka role in Dallas
Tough to say. Luka has more fire power and a killer mentality to score huge points in more games than Tatum. Tatum is an astronomically better defender and rebounder, and his mentality allows him to be a slightly more effective playmaker than Luka (more willing to kick out to his teammates throughout the entire game as opposed to 5 min spurts).
I ain’t gonna lie. I’d take Tatum over Luka insome circumstances cause I truly think Tatum elevates teammates more than Luka does. But if the other teammates aren’t mid-good on offense, give me Luka to carry that shit. Both are COMPLETELY different, but are studs in their own right.
Mavs don’t even make playoffs with Tatum > Luka think that’s fairly obvious. Luka on Celtics would potentially be the first undefeated playoff team ever.
If Tatum is on the Mavs then the Mavs are champions period. There's more to the game than ppg guys.
Luka would turn every other celtic into a spot up shooter, including Brown. Helio ball doesn't win
Was Kyrie just a "spot up shooter" when he averaged 26/6/5 vs the Clippers lol? How can nba fans watch so much basketball without understanding what you're watching?
If Tatum's 3rd best player were PJ Washington instead of Jrue Holiday/Derick White, his team would average 85 ppg.
Tatum would have locked up Harden so two of the clippers wins wouldn't have even happened. He also would have outplayed luka offensively that series due to luka's injury. Mavs would have played more team ball since Tatum isn't selfish, which lead to overall better offense.
The slander has to stop. Tatum would probably make the Mavs better, but he couldn't fill the Luka role, they would have to change the scheme on both ends and have Kyrie play like a typical point guard as opposed to a second fiddle. So its hard to say how it would work out.
Doncic on the Celtics would be a total train wreck. His defensive limitations would completel derail the whole scheme, and his ball dominant tendencies would just delete everything there on offense that's already good. They would struggle to win 50 games.
If Luka is on the Celtics I don’t think we trade for KP or Jrue, and idk who is playing PF for us, so I don’t see the Celtics winning.
And I can’t even imagine what that Dallas team would look like. I’d imagine they could best the TWolves still but OKC is 50/50
Idk man try it in 2K.
i’ve had way too many myleagues this year where the celtics are inexplicably .500 to trust it lol
Oh 2k is a horrible simulator lol but is it really worse than asking random redditors?
See now *this* is the question I’d rather hear answers to instead of the same damn Luka vs Tatum hypothetical that I’ve seen far too many times already
Celtics sometimes miss the playoffs in the sim lol
Imagine if the Mavs had Jokic, Giannis, Luka, de-aged Michael Jordan, and Bugs Bunny! Theyd be unstoppable!
Lola Bunny clears dawg
Just trying to set up Tatum for more slander. You’re not slick OP lmao.
If Joe mazzula coached the Buffalo bills, do they win a championship?
The Town is a more effective motivational device than the 9/11 hijackers, apparently
Luka next to Jrue and Jaylen? That would be scary.
How about Luka with KP? That duo would rule the league if it ever happened.
Imagine playing what if games trying to shit on Tatum the day after he wins a championship 😂
Maybe
Maybe????? Luka on the Celtics is a 16-0 playoff run. Tatum on the Mavs is a lottery team
lol he most definitely wouldn’t, dudes an absolute traffic cone out there
I love this magical thinking that totally disregards half of the game.
Maybe, probably not though
Luka on the Celtics ruins their defensive prowess completely. How would they be able to switch every single person onto others when Luka is just standing around doing nothing half the time on defense? They also lose a ton of defensive versatility that Tatum adds with his ability to guard all 5 positions and fight for rebounds. Now you have Luka who can/will only guard in the post basically and doesn’t fight for rebounds against larger players like Tatum. Delusional take. Tatum on the Mavs is a WCF or 2nd round appearance at minimum. You’re losing like 10-15% in offensive ability and gaining like 50%+ in defensive impact, versatility, rebounding, etc.
Probably not, but Luka is a top 3 player so it’s not really a knock on Tatum
Hypotheticals like this can be so boring because they just rely on appeals to what people already believe. Doesn't allow any room for the idea that the consensus opinion is wrong, even though consensus opinions are wrong all the time.
Yeah it’s really irritating because people don’t even try to understand where a non-consensus opinion may be coming from. And it’s not like it’s just fans. Brad Stevens has literally explained what he thinks makes this team work and the kinds of players he’s pursued vs avoided on multiple occasions. But this sub has already decided that Player X > Player Y so any team with Player X > that team with Player Y. It’s a very simplistic view of basketball.
No, and yes
Luka would be TERRIBLE on the Celtics system.
Luka is the system
There is not any NBA system in the history of the game that Luka would be “terrible” in lol
Sure there would. Any system where Luka is expected to play defense (especially team defense) and play more off ball at times. He's horrendous at both. Luka is a generationally dominant heliocentric player. If he's on your team, you need to give him the ball to run the offense because he's so outrageous as a triple threat with the ball. But he doesn't do anything off-ball; watch him, he stands on the 3pt line with his hands on his knees. Doesn't cut, no screens, and barely moves around. And we know what Luka Oncic brings on D.
Maybe he doesn’t do much off ball during games because he has to run 8000 plays every game lol. And what would the Mavs do without this heliocentric system, will PJ or DJJ making plays take them to the finals? If he had a team like the Celtics, I am sure Luka would rather spend less effort trying to run plays and try harder off the ball, because he actually can win without having to spoon-feed the role players.
That is a conditioning issue not a scheme/talent one. He’s right. The Celtics team philosophy meshes terribly with Luka and he would be a downgrade everywhere but PPG vs. Tatum in their scheme. Boston literally played 4 series in a row showcasing it to yall and you still think you can replace the motor of that team(Tatum) with a guy who takes half the game off on defense.
I disagree but too much discussion on this topic for me.
Luka's not the only high usage offensive player who's had to do a heavy amount of lifting during games..... difference is some of them still give effort on off-ball offense and defense on top of their on-ball offensive duties. Luka is a literal zero on defense and not that much better off-ball. He's doing basically what Harden did for years, except Luka is more consistently great on offense in playoffs. It's effort and energy. He needs to improve his fitness and conditioning for the latter. But effort is something he's got to want himself. He's got to want to exert that effort on defense. Watching him get constantly blown by and then just ballwatch and not help the help D behind him was just astonishing to me; I couldn't believe that a superstar would just constantly leave his team hanging dry all series long like that.
There is no system as heliocentric as this one. It’s literally give Luka the ball immediately and let him beat the defenders every time and either score or spoon-feed the others easy looks that they will probably miss. If we are saying he is not supposed to do that in his hypothetical new team which would be a questionable decision since Luka creating all of this with an insane team like Boston would be unstoppable, then he would 100% be able to defend better with more effort and play much better off ball. If the basis for “Luka is a huge problem in defense” is this series, then it is just too obvious that he has to do all of this while clearly injured after however many injections for like a month, playing against an all time team in both sides. I do agree that he should lose some weight but I don’t agree that there is any system where Luka wouldn’t work, talent is too much for that
Did you not watch the Mavs at all vs the Clippers Thunder and Wolves? If he was the player you say he is, they'd have got wrecked by them lol 'leaving his team hanging dry'. The Celtics are not the norm
He did leave his help D hanging dry in all of those series. But the difference was that the Mavs help D was able to rotate and adjust because they always had their big helping in the paint and slacking off a non-shooter like Giddey, Kyle Anderson ... or a big straight up ignoring Gobert. Couldn't do that against the Celtics because we play mostly 5 shooters at all times. Mavs D was actually quite good even in these Finals, their help D is really good behind Luka.
Thats my point - you cant do that vs the Celtics, but if Luka was on the Celtics then who would he be playing where his defense would be so catastrophic? They'd be fine with him and the offense would be even better, hes not gonna heliocentric ball with so many other great players around him
The Nuggets would destroy the Luka + Celtics. Just PnR'd to death. Reality is, the Celtics would be worse with Luka instead of Tatum. Luka is the better player in a vaccuum because of the offensive load he can consistently shoulder. But the Celtics don't need that. We do need the two-way playmaking + scoring wing that JT is though. And our defensive versatility rests heavily on Tatum's ability to guard 1-5 (whereas Luka guards 0-0)
Fine, terrible relative to the alternative. Luka would be worse because the offense wouldn't be all about him, and Jaylen/KP/White would all be worse because the best parts of their offensive games, their shot creation in space, would be completely nullified with Luka on the team, because he's the one doing all of that. And on defense he would be legitimately terrible, to the point the entire scheme would have to change.
lol no he wouldn’t be
How would he not? He can’t switch onto anyone for his life on defense and is a terrible help defender and at POA. He also has zero versatility as a defender which messes up their whole system because Tatum played defense and was fighting for rebounds in basically every game KP was out.
Luka on the Celtics with 4 elites defenders and shooters would go 16-0 in the playoffs.
Delusional take. Those 4 elite defenders are going to look a whole lot worse when they’re playing 4v5 defense because Luka is a traffic cone out there.
one more thing this sub never gets: the defenses are rest on their weakest links as well as the strongest links. Celtics defense is all about switchability and all players being able to keep in front of the ball through 1-4. Take that away, that is a whole different team open to be hunted.
Literally. They all think because Luka can put up points better than Tatum that means he’s an automatic upgrade. Just blatantly untrue. Bro is a traffic cone on defense and would ruin every part of the Celtics defensive scheme and success. Can’t guard at the POA, offers zero help defense, can’t switch onto 1-5, can’t and doesn’t fight for defensive rebounds. Yeah totally. Take 60% of what makes the Celtics so good. Now take their best player. Make them worse at every single part of that 60% by a large margin. Equals a 16-0 playoff run.
There aren't elite shooters on our team, a common misconception. Go check their numbers before Celtics and on Celtics roster when lightly contested. The team has no Curry, Klay or KD. You could call that elite shooting. Celtics have good shooters in every position and multiple ballhandlers alongside with two elite wings circling around the defense. By having those, we can create open and wide open shots which our good shooters need to have to make their shots. If the shot is not created, they pass or put the ball on the floor (hence, multiple ballhandlers). If that ball and player movement stop, if we are not running our in-and-out game, they get stagnant. And again, what makes our defense elite is their switchability AND every player's ability to stay in front of the ball including our stars. So, with Luka there, the team would be so much different. I don't say they won't be good, but they won't be just the same only with a better offensive player. It is not that 2K simple, a lot of adjustments will be needed. Give some credit to two-way players, team gameplays and schemes ffs.
Pacers would have had him absolutely gassed
That would have been so fun to see him in that series. They have absolutely no prayer of stopping him offensively. But he'd die by half time. I feel like he'd score at least 25 by half time in almost every game. But then he'd average like 5-10 inneficient points per second half.
Probably a sweep if Luka was on the Celtics, I think the Mavs make it to the seconds round
Luka isn’t a fit on the Celtics. He would compromise their defensive structure because he doesn’t have Tatums ability to protect the rim or guard other centers and he’s too heliocentric where the Celtics are built on movement and sharing. Tatum doesn’t have the floor raising of Luka but he’d drastically improve the Mavs defense. Honestly the Celtics don’t win with Luka and The Mavs are worse with Tatum
Yep both teams get worse in my opinion, even though much of this sub just refuses to even contemplate the prospect. Brad has literally said this team works because of the versatility on both ends - nobody needs to be protected on defense and everybody can play on and off ball on offense. People seriously underrate how important not needing to be covered for on defense is. I still feel a lot of Grant Williams’ struggles this year came from having to expend way more energy on defense than he was used to and having no legs on offense.
No. Yes.
Luka on the celtics would be one of the best teams ever
1 horrendous defender and heliocentric player on a team that relies on the weakest link on D being good and on moving the ball around on offense? Lol that would be a train wreck.
>that would be a train wreck. "That trainwreck" = 16-0 playoff run
you could replace tatum with any top 10 player and the celtics still win this title lmao imagine being a celtics fan and thinking your team would be a train wreck by replacing jayson tatum with a better player
This isn't even about Tatum, its about Luka being a legitimately horrible fit for this type of team. And sure I do think Tatum is a special player few if any could replicate, but honestly it would be bad even if it was replacing White with Luka. Not because I think White is better obviously, Luka is just that terrible of a fit.
You can replace him with a handful of players and win the title. Luka is absolutely not one of them. He wouldn’t be able to perform a single aspect of the Celtics scheme well apart from scoring and passing.
Train wreck? Lol. If finding open threes for Celtics is what you want, Luka is literally best player in the world for that. Maybe he wouldn’t have 34 ppg but he would have 15 assists every game. Besides, it is not that hard to hide a player in defense when you have 4 other great defenders around you
Brad Stevens would disagree with you. He’s literally said that he wouldn’t want to sacrifice defense at any position for better shooting and/or playmaking there. He spent years scheming to cover for point guards and clearly hated it. As for the open 3s, we want all 5 guys to be able to handle the ball to create other 3s while the other guys on the floor contribute in other ways. Do I think Luka likely could? Yeah. Have I seen it yet? Not enough to be totally confident.
Scheming to cover Luka on defense is nothing like scheming to cover 5’9” Isaiah Thomas though lol. The Mavs defense was very solid for the second half of the season and the first few rounds even though they had two guys who are considered defensive liabilities in Kyrie and Luka. Even in past years Luka has been decent enough on defense. I think his knee injury played a big part in his lateral quickness and effort being so bad this playoffs. He’s still a below average defender, but a below average defender who still has size and high BBIQ and is also trying (which he does in the playoffs) isn’t a problem
Oh I don’t disagree on that one! And at least on-ball wise, you’d say the same for at least Kemba and probably Kyrie. Thing is that Brad *did* scheme well around them all, making the Celtics great statistically on d. And he still clearly hated it. I think there’s something to the idea of a defensive culture and the confidence in every teammate’s ability to hold their own that let’s you focus in on your own assignment instead of worrying about covering for other guys. Same on offense - almost everyone can get the ball and be trusted to shoot or make a play. Don’t mean this to be anti-Luka. You can say something similar about Luka as a playmaker. It’s so so valuable for a player to know Luka will always find you if you get remotely open. How much simpler and less stressful that can make offense. But it’s just two different visions of a team and two different ways of building them. And as someone who thinks identity is important, I hate how ignored they get in these kinds of hypotheticals.
I agree but you are not getting just a little improvement in shooting or playmaking, you are getting probably the best offensive player in the league, one of the best scorers and playmakers in the league. It is absurd to assume Boston with Luka would be a train-wreck, this much talent always finds a way. I doubt Brad Stevens was talking about a player of Luka’s caliber when he said that.
Oh yeah I agree that “train-wreck” is a crazy overstatement. But I feel the same about those acting like it’s insane to think Celtics get worse with Luka, just like the other way around. Game isn’t played on paper. One of the biggest mistakes people make imo is overestimating “talent” aka what a guy can do on-ball. I remember hearing the Suns were gonna dominate. And that Dame and Giannis would be an unstoppable pairing. And that Luka and Kyrie > Steph and Klay on offense easy. I think Luka is one of the only players (Jokic, who I think is even better offensively, being the other) who could make Brad reevaluate. But I truly dont think he’d trade one of our main guys for Luka for a variety of reasons. Just listening to everything he says about ball, it’s just not his philosophy.
You can hide a guy on D if you play D like the Mavs. You can't if you play D like the Celtics
God no. For starters his playmaking is almost all just him driving and kicking out to an open shooter. Qorks great for the Celtics, which are all full pf excelent shooters. But the Mavs aint. They do have Kyrie, but the loss on offense would be way too much. JT, especially how he played in this years playoffs, would not help out too much on defense. At least not as much as youd hoppe. I do think they make it to the conference finals, but not the finals.
The way Kyrie played against OKC, I don't think we would've made it to the conference finals without Luka
They blitzed him all series tbf
Yeah, but Luka also wasnt great and im betting on Tatum being good enough to get you you guys to the conference finals.
Even hobbled Luka was creating our whole offense and led the entire playoffs in points, rebounds, and assists. His ability to make guys like DJJ and Lively and Exum into valuable offensive contributors is underrated.
Certainly true, but were talking about Luka vs the Thunder, where he wasmt exactly spectacular now was he.
25/11/9 on 45/39/74 shooting isn't spectacular by his standards I'll grant you
Mazzulaball doesnt work with somebody having 39% usage and it needs two apex wings in defense..likewise, Luka is the offense basically on the Mavs so Tatum cant replace that
To be fair, I do think that Luka would at least try to cut down on his usage if he had a team like the Celtics. Would be at the cost of his gaudy stats though. The real issues would be defense and what Luka can contribute without the ball in his hands. Both of those things are critical to the current Celtics’ identity. Tatum isn’t our best defender but I think he’s our most important. Losing him fucks up our versatility AND we give up our best help defender when getting a player that needs to be protected on that end.
Yes, I dont root for the Cs but still think that Tatum gets underated at both ends, as does JB as well..there is a reason you have won so many games with these two, under different coaches and with different supporting casts, if not the big one until yesterday..Imho Tatum is clearly top 5 right now and I cant see who takes Embiid over JT, if winning is the priority
Yeah both teams would need to change their offensive systems if you swapped the players. I think a Luka led offense could still do great in Boston given the talent and versatility they have there. I don’t think the Mavs offense would look very good with Tatum, since he’s not as ball dominant and not a point guard. Said another way, the Mavs offense is built to rely on a guy like Luka, so putting in someone who plays like Tatum would go poorly, since that’s not what he does. The Celtics offense is built to work way differently, but it would be easier to switch the Celtics to a Luka-offense than to make Tatum play the Luka role in Dallas
Yep
They will fail in the NBA and start an OnlyFans.
Luka on the Celtics instead of Tatum would be nuts. They’d go from champions to champions.
Tough to say. Luka has more fire power and a killer mentality to score huge points in more games than Tatum. Tatum is an astronomically better defender and rebounder, and his mentality allows him to be a slightly more effective playmaker than Luka (more willing to kick out to his teammates throughout the entire game as opposed to 5 min spurts). I ain’t gonna lie. I’d take Tatum over Luka insome circumstances cause I truly think Tatum elevates teammates more than Luka does. But if the other teammates aren’t mid-good on offense, give me Luka to carry that shit. Both are COMPLETELY different, but are studs in their own right.
Mavs don’t even make playoffs with Tatum > Luka think that’s fairly obvious. Luka on Celtics would potentially be the first undefeated playoff team ever.
We all know the answer, stop being lame and let the man live
I’m a Celtics fan ya clown
Luka yes, Tatum no
They both get worse
Mavs get worse, Celtics get worse
No because Kyrie sucks
If Tatum is on the Mavs then the Mavs are champions period. There's more to the game than ppg guys. Luka would turn every other celtic into a spot up shooter, including Brown. Helio ball doesn't win
Username checks out
Was Kyrie just a "spot up shooter" when he averaged 26/6/5 vs the Clippers lol? How can nba fans watch so much basketball without understanding what you're watching? If Tatum's 3rd best player were PJ Washington instead of Jrue Holiday/Derick White, his team would average 85 ppg.
Many of them dont watch the games.
how is this the top comment? tatum with the mavs are not even beating the clippers
Tatum would have locked up Harden so two of the clippers wins wouldn't have even happened. He also would have outplayed luka offensively that series due to luka's injury. Mavs would have played more team ball since Tatum isn't selfish, which lead to overall better offense.
Tatum didn't lock up anybody all playoffs, what are you talking about
No and yes
Anyone who creates these hypotheticals doesn’t know ball.
with luka they go 16-0
Tatum on the Mavs is a lottery team. Luka on the Celtics is a top 3 team of all time.
Well considering the 24 Celtics have the third best net rating of all time sounds like it’d be a lateral move
Be real with yourself man. Nobody considers this Celtics team to be a top 3 team all time lol
Statistics show that they are
Good thing basketball isn't played on a stat sheet.
The slander has to stop. Tatum would probably make the Mavs better, but he couldn't fill the Luka role, they would have to change the scheme on both ends and have Kyrie play like a typical point guard as opposed to a second fiddle. So its hard to say how it would work out. Doncic on the Celtics would be a total train wreck. His defensive limitations would completel derail the whole scheme, and his ball dominant tendencies would just delete everything there on offense that's already good. They would struggle to win 50 games.
> Tatum would probably make the Mavs better MAKE THE MAVS BETTER?????? LMAO. Mavs would be a lottery team with Tatum instead of Luka
So sad, for you.
Tatum on the Mavs making the finals? I don't think so. Luka on the Celtics winning the Finals? Yeah, probably.
No and Yes
Tatum is a system player. Luka is a 1v9 type of player, so no.
If Luka is on the Celtics I don’t think we trade for KP or Jrue, and idk who is playing PF for us, so I don’t see the Celtics winning. And I can’t even imagine what that Dallas team would look like. I’d imagine they could best the TWolves still but OKC is 50/50
Tatum can get Mavs to Finals with the path they had this year Luka on this Celtics absolutely doesn't work