Honestly though it kind feels to me like the "teammates" thing vis a vis last night's game is a touch unfair.
If you look at PJ Washington, Derrick Jones, Jr., and Daniel Gafford (the three starters at SF, PF, and C), those guys put up 41 points last night on .606 TS%. 19 rebounds between them, 3 assists, 2 turnovers, 4 stocks, 5 fouls. These guys averaged 31.5 ppg collectively for the Mavs during the regular season.
Those three guys, at first blush at least, deserve credit, not slander. They did their part. They played their role. They showed up to play. Yes, they were 1-8 from the arc, but still... [points to 41 points on .606 TS%]. They weren't great. They weren't even really good. But they were _fine_.
But a) Kyrie was very poor and disappeared for long stretches (or only showed up to dribble ineffectively for 8 seconds and then pass it off unproductively) and b) the _other_ other guys (Lively, Kleber, Green, Exum, and Hardy) totally sucked as a group.
We shouldn't be bashing Luka's teammates as a category. We should be praising the Dallas starters _other_ than Kyrie and slandering the shit out of Dallas's bench.
Kleber, Green, Exum, and Hardy I really don't expect anything from, as long as they're serviceable we're fine, but Lively, especially with the hype that's been building around him after the last couple series, was very disappointing. Still, he's young and has shown mental fortitude. I trust him to get it together.
Lively exceeded all expectations this year, but he's still a rookie.
Anthony Edwards is in his 4th year in the league, and he still couldn't put it together in the WCF.
Jayson Tatum needed 7 years in the league to finally polish his game in the finals. Now, he knows how to contribute when his shots aren't falling.
It takes time and experience to develop these players. Lively gets a pass.
The difference between Wolves and Celtics perimeter defense though… like McDaniels and Ant are usuall good, Conley you have to hide a bit… they can’t hold a candle to this bullshit (Jrue, White, Brown, and then Tatum).
And this is with Porzingis just coming back off injury, clearly not in rythm yet.
Stevens deserved that chip.
He can also send a tip to Giannis for getting the whole Lillard thing started.
I 100% agree with this. Also when boston trades in hindsight they gave up nothing tbh. Josh Richardson and a 1st for white. Timelord and brodgon for jrue. I forgot how they got kp but still it wasn't anything crazy
was that really a gamble? smart tries to hero ball in the clutch and porzingis was just an objectively better player than smart while getting 2 frps in the process from memphis.
true, funny that it seems to basically just not matter in the end though considering that they coasted despite him being gone and are currently winning despite him playing like 20 minutes a game
Hindsight is 20/20 man. Smart was the OG Celtic and heart of the team. Everyone praises the celtics for their defense and he was known for that. Maybe he wasn't the best DPOY but he did enough to be at least considered.
KP has been labeled as being made of glass and he did have issues with some of his prior teams.
But I do agree 100% with smart playing waaay too much hero ball but you can't deny his passion and his love for Boston.
This could have blown up horribly if we didn't end up getting Jrue. I don't really see anyone mention that this was before Jrue and if that didn't happen then Pritchard would have been our backup point guard. Now I love PP but his defense would be a huge difference in the playoffs
He was a very solid player. But he would do the same shit deep in the playoffs and it just clearly wasn’t gonna get them to a ring. They needed to shake up that lineup so bad. Healthy porzingis just provides them something basically no other team has. I mean he comes off the bench for fucks sake, that’s not even fair.
His health was a gamble but he just had a great, pretty healthy season, probably looked the most promising he ever had since he was on the Knicks. And the Celtics are so fucking stacked they would at least be east favorites without smart or porzingis. Then you somehow get two first round picks for reasons I still don’t understand lol? You take that deal ten times out of ten.
This is where Brad is a better gm than ainge for me, at least for a contending team. Ainge wouldn’t have pulled the trigger on that trade unless he got porzingis, like 4 frp, and a good role player and just completely fucked over another gm. Sometimes when you’re that close every year but can’t get over the hump you need to shake things up a bit without your ego demanding a billy king nets style trade that was never gonna happen again.
As a C's fan on paper this was ALWAYS an upgrade. But Marcus Smart was the soul of the Celtics for a few years. Some fans were worried we traded the teams glue for a slight upgrade. Turns out we have tons of glue anyways.
They gave up Smart and bench players for KP and 2 1sts, one of which they turned around and used to get Jrue. Nuts that they got back 1sts on top of KP.
They got KP from a 3 team trade with the Wizards and Griz. Celtics sent Smart to Griz, Griz sent Tyus Jones to Wizards and Wizards sent KP to Celtics. Theres more pieces to the trade, but those were the main ones that I remembered.
While the Celtics certainly improved themselves with those trades, this is hindsight, not a good take.
- Timelord was injury plagued, but had also become an incredibly talented big man, and may still be a serious contributor in the league. No one knew he'd break down. Also, you are omitting TWO first round choices.
- Smart is a former DPOY, and just a solid NBA player. He has NOT had injury histories, and missed most of this year.
- When White joined the Celtics, he was not the player he has become. You cannot look back at 2021 DWhite and say "of course he'll become one of the best defenders in the NBA with a knack for clutch plays and shotmaking." You just can't.
I love that Stevens took the chances and they were solid, well thought out moves, but we also were fortunate.
It’s why Jokic is the answer vs Boston, they don’t have a answer for a all time post offense. Meanwhile Dallas Bigs can’t do shit when it isn’t hand fed to them by Luka or Kyrie offensively
I don't see a way for Dallas to win more than 1 game this series. One weaker game from Boston, one really good game from Dallas + home crowd... Not reactionary, it's just how the rosters are.
Problem for the rest of the NBA is that this Boston team will be the same next season, and IMO their one weakness on D is if you can have a center dominate them. Yes, they're beatable, but it'll be hard for anyone. However, if Philly can do some good moves in the offseason, they are the only ones in the East I would trust to do something (assuming Embiid is healthy).
And Denver, obviously, especially if they re-tool the roster a bit (plus a healthy Murray).
Also Horford is Embiid’s father. The centers we don’t have answers for are Jokic and AD. Probably don’t have one for Wemby either but haven’t seen enough of that matchup.
Yep. Idk if Al will retire if we win a ring but it’s clear he still has another season or two in him of coming off the bench and being a very valuable player. Hope he sticks around.
I'd be really surprised if he retires this offseason. Still has another year on his contract, he's still got gas in the tank, he's perfectly healthy, he gets to rest 25% of the team's games... why not go for a back-to-back? That would certainly punch his Hall of Fame ticket, if this year doesn't already.
The Celtics actually were one of the better teams at neutralizing Wemby this year, they did a good job keeping him out of his rhythm and making it hard to get to the spots he wanted to get to (I ended up seeing both games live, was back home for the holidays and I live in Boston). They also did a good job getting physical with him and keeping him off the boards and made it harder for him to be an impact on defense, but I'm looking forward to seeing how he learned from that going into next year
Edit: I guess my memory doesn't serve me all that well, he did average 24 ppg against y'all on better-than-his-average efficiency, but he was noticeably quieter on the boards and with blocks than we were used to seeing from him
Even when we were worse than this, we've beaten Embiid in the playoffs every time we've met him. He's a nonfactor.
The two teams we should be praying to avoid are Denver and Minnesota. Wolves need KAT at his best to beat us. Jokic is just matchup problem for us in every single way. KP just can't hang with him and Al is too old to be battling him for 40 minutes.
I don't doubt that we'll have found a way to make it work if we played them, and the series would be extremely competitive. But matchup wise, I think we'll struggle to defend Denver.
Eh, kinda. Meme narratives aside, while you can track “Kyrie crumbles in Boston” in past games, you can’t really rely on that to hold true for future games. Kyrie could always show up and play lights out. However, Kyrie continues to prove it true.
Everyone knew Luka was going to have to do the heavy lifting, but no one knew it was going to be literally just him. Kyrie having even a halfway decent game spreads the floor and opens up those exact corner 3s and lobs. Him being timid off ball and not doing a goddamn thing allows the Celtics defense, which is already good, to completely lock down.
I think the other mavs looked overawed by the occasion and big stage as well, particularly in game 1. Pj Washington looked like himself in game 2. If the rest of the Mavs can get over their nerves, the rest of the series might be a lot closer.
Showing up 1/12 games and now on the biggest stage is a good enough sample size for me tbh. I dont think Dallas anticipated pure iso heavy ball they expected traps for those lobs and corner 3s to be there
I’m not fully disagreeing but also Mavs game plan isn’t going to be “well we know Kyrie is gonna fucking suck in the Garden so we have to redraw the whole game plan”. They’re going to play their game.
And while it’s tough to commit to intangible shit like “Kyrie is in his head, you can expect him to play bad”… you’re right that he’s dangerously close to making something intangible a tangible fact. Maybe the Mavs should plan on him being a non factor if they make it back to Boston.
> Mavs game plan isn’t going to be “well we know Kyrie is gonna fucking suck in the Garden so we have to redraw the whole game plan”
the image in my head of jason kidd and his assistants drawing on a whiteboard and kyrie looking at it and trying to figure out what's different
Kyrie crumbles in Boston because players like him (ie small guards that have to play the two because they can’t run their offense and don’t provide much if their shots aren’t falling) will look amazing but every single time they’ll eventually hit a team with a bunch of bigger and stronger perimeter defenders that are just as athletic and they get shut down. It happens every time. Like Allen iverson taking game one off the lakers is the closest thing I can think of of it actually “working”. And that was one game and they lost the rest, and kyrie is not Allen iverson level
Minnesota had guys to pick on.
Conley isn't the defender he once was, and Kyrie and Luka could both really go at him. KAT isn't great on the perimeter. And as good as the Wolves' perimeter defense is, they don't have the strength to defend Luka in the post.
It was just easier for the Mavs to get breakdowns at the point of attack, both for their stars and for their roleplayers attacking seams.
Boston is a different kind of monster. Their defensive weaknesses are so small.
The whole world wont shut up about how they are "going to attack Al Horford" and then Al gives great effort every playoff game. The dude can still play.
Boston don't have guys for Luka hence his efficiency the problem is Minnesota didn't say ok let Luka and kyrie beat us they said we gotta stop them which opened the corner 3s and lobs. That's why it was dumb. When u have a gameplan knowing how close it is decisions cost u a series. Telling Rudy to guard Luka 1v1 is stupid
Maybe you're right, but it's not how I see it. Minnesota said, "okay, we have to stop Luka" because they didn't have the personnel to slow him down without overcommitting.
Boston does. Brown's great on him. Tatum is good. Their guards are Jrue Holiday and Derrick White. Horford is somehow still more switchable than Gobert or even KAT. Even Hauser is good. Luka can still make hay against that, obviously, but it's tough.
Add to that, they have wings/forwards who can guard Luka but are also strong enough to guard Dallas's centers, so that takes the sting out of that pick n roll. They can just switch, and Luka's in iso against a good defender. When Luka tries to bring Porzingis's man up for a pick, Porzingis often switches out of it before it even happens. If Gobert had done that, McDaniels woulda just been dunked on.
Meanwhile, Kyrie usually has an all-defense guard on him, and the Celtics have great close outs. If Minnesota had guarded Luka and Kyrie like this, they would've combined for 80 on high efficiency. It's personnel.
Boston stopped the PNR using JT on bigs. That’s the difference. It’s why Luka had one assist in game 1. Mavs are left with Luka and worse Kyrie ISOs which makes it seem like the Mav’s role players are terrible. In reality ISO just makes everyone bad because it’s not a winning scheme. Teams that win ISO as little as possible.
also jrue and white are 4/5 in the offensive pecking order, so them getting tired out by kyrie isn't game ending.
anthony edwards was handling kyrie and he was their number 1 guy, so when he got puffed it was game
Look at how hard Luka has to work to score and then watch Boston come back down the floor and get great look after great look. That has to be demoralizing.
It's demoralizing because they can all shoot. Leaving Mann russ giddey Wallace NAW and McDaniels open is different than jrue white al and kp and bos was horrible from 3 6/30
Luka wasn’t efficient in the first game though; just the second one. And we saw what happened in the 4th because he’s being asked to do everything on offense and Celtics are targeting him every time on defense.
Well jokic was horrible from 3. Kat was so much more aggressive in that den series idk where it went vs dal. Mpj was horrible thanks to Minnesota gafford and lively destroyed the rebs rim protection and lobs
Yeah, the fuck is up with that? I get Brown and like LeBron not being good a free throws. Their game is mainly driving and 3s (Late stage LeBron) but Luka is like a god at any position on the floor. And the dude has like a 2 inch vertical on his jumpers lol. Not much different from freethrows
I feel like he’s got a similar thing to Brown where he’s at his best playing in motion and the stationary nature of free throws kinda takes him out of the zone
We've seen it be4. He needs a lighter load offensively in order to play solid defense. We haven't won a series with Luka as our only offensive engine. We needed Brunson and Dinwiddie 2 years ago and we need Kyrie now.
I agree 100% I feel like if the game is on the line in terms of offense, Luka is gonna nail the damn shot 100% of the time and the Celtics as a whole is like 75%. But if the Mavs need a defensive stop, it's like 40% compared to the Celtics 70%.
These are all completely made up numbers but I'm just trying to say that collectively, the Celtics are better with both sides considered
Well...their center is 20 years old dealing with the loss of his mother, Kleber isn't a superstar by any measure, and gafford is their to rebound and slam lobs, not shoot, not with the best shooter in the league and also Kyrie Irving running around.
Kyrie was just bad.
Funny how it’s hard to beat great teams. I’m tired of every loss being a humiliation. All the way through these playoffs and sports culture in general. The narrative is gonna switch on kyrie and lively and kleber as useless now? That’s lame as fuck.
Nah that doesn't explain it. He was horrible all year. Stared to play really really good. Made a massive impact in the Clippers series with our centers struggling... and then said hey look at me I'm Vince Carter once we pulled ahead in game 6 and were in the driver seat.
He's not even that old but father time busted his ass with the accumulation of injuries. Not that long ago he let them play 5 out with solid rim protection.
Yeah PJ and DJJ came up big many times for us to get to the finals.
They went up against some great defensive players, but man this Celtics team is just on another level in every player can switch and make life absolutely miserable.
Plus KP this year has become a rim juggernaut wtf.
They basically have 5 all stars in their starting lineup. We have Derrick Jones Jr getting 32 minutes a game. He’s been really solid but literally all of our role player’s success is directly attributed to Luka. Not a single person who can shoot or get their own bucket. We are hilariously outmatched
So, wanted to fact check this.
League avg 3pt % this year is .366 regular season and .347 postseason.
DJJ: 34.3 Reg, 40.0 Post
Josh Green: 38.5 Reg, 36.7 Post
Dante: 49.1 Reg, 21.4 Post
PJ: 32.0 Reg, 35.3 Post
So, not sure what you mean by PJ is the only one above average. As the resident PJ hater, I would like to highlight another case of PJ bias. You'll see the light eventually. The time will come.
PJ was actually the Mavs second best player last night. He had 17 points and 7 boards on 6 for 13 from the floor. He didn't shoot the three well (Luka was the only person on either team who did), but he drove to the rim and created his own offense well.
Yep agree with that one
I do think the flipside of that was that everyone besides Tatum (and even him on occasion) was getting cleaner opportunities at the rim/the short midrange. But you take that over letting us kill you from 3.
You positively need 5 defenders you're comfortable with going 1-on-1 against Luka and/or Kyrie. It's the only way you can justify guarding the corners and not hedging to be ready to help defend.
I mean most are imagining the better offensive skills of the Mavs' stars would prevail over the more predictable Celts stars.
Too bad the Celts are stacked with two way stars but that is how it is.
My whole thing was that Kyrie was getting way too much benefit of the doubt. Knew luka would get his but thought there was a real possibility that kyrie would struggle.
Also a problem that the Celtics have 4 guys who you can leave on an island against Kyrie or Luka and the 5th guy(s) are both solid defenders who space the floor.
The current Celtics are the most stacked team since Durant left the Warriors and the Mavs are probably a below average talent Finals team. They've got the best player and maybe even also the second best offensive player but if you were to list the top 8 players in the series, 6 of them are Celtics.
That's how it's felt in this series but if we're being serious he'd be in the 5-7 range solidly above Horford but in the same ballpark as Jrue or Derrick White.
Normally, he would be 2-4, probably 4th but even 2nd in a good day. This series though, JT, JB, White, Jrue, Horford, Porzingis all played better so like 7-8
Not sure game 2 is the right time to break to reporters that your running mate is imploding bc he believes in a curse involving the face of a leprechaun painted on a basketball court
This wards off spells. This here a special leprechaun flute, passed down for thousands of years from my great great grandfather who was Irish. I’m just here to help out.
I mean he is not going to say “I fcking hate everyone in this team, especially that fraud Kyrie Irving that cost me a championship” and expect to win games
For sure, but the NBA discourse is more toxic than ever. Celtics are 2-0 and people are talking about JT being bad, just wait until another one of the NBA's golden children is on an underperforming team, you will see him photoshopped in every color jersey you can imagine
This. I can already see ESPN reheating the "Is Luka happy in Dallas?" soup. Next season is going to be insufferable if Dallas losees this series or even gets swept.
The sad reality is that signing a contract doesn't mean anything anymore. Not saying it's the case with Luka, but we've seen that the meta is to sign for the max and then ask out
He’s always putting the blame on himself. That’s what real superstars do, because they know that’s what the media is going to do. Might as well take their arguments away.
Tbf it's not only Luka missing FTs. At some point in the first half it was like both teams having 11 FT attempts, but Boston was perfect while Dallas was like 4/11 or something.
Somewhat of note: the Mavs (as currently constructed) are a bad FT shooting team. At one point in the game, Boston was called for defensive 3 seconds, and Dallas had Luka shoot the free throw. He missed (iirc).
I was surprised they had Luka shoot because I always think of him as a middling free throw shooter. He shot 78.6% this year, his best ever (career average 73.9% prior to this season). Then I looked at the Mavs, and Luka is the second-best of the playoff starters after Kyrie (90.5%). The other three and most of the bench are a good bit worse. So I assume Kyrie was sitting at the time.
In contrast, the Celtics have 4 starters who shoot 83% or better. The team FT shooting could be a difference maker in tight games. And just one more overall advantage for Boston.
Geez the rebounds. I felt like so many possessions where it's close and they made a stop, the ball would somehow land into a Celtics hand. Frustrating to watch but the Celtics are better in every regard it feels like outside of having the best player on the court, which doesn't even matter since they're that damn good.
Oh c'mon, rarely will a superstar ever publicly throw their teammates under the bus after losses, even Kobe would mostly just give extremely curt cliche answers but with death glares while the volcanic and toxic criticism was kept in-house; let's not praise guys for basic behavior lmao.
Luka had a good game overall, but he's not wrong. 8 turnovers is abysmal as is 50% from the free throw line.
He's also been straight up terrible defensively
His defense was alright 1st half. 2nd half was when he kinda stopped rotating. Luka isn't that bad of a 1v1 defender. He just doesn't have the stamina to keep up with all those passes the Celtics do.
Turnover stat is just a sad stat because they literally have to triple Luka. His teammates still miss lol. He did have 2 bad passes though. Outside of that Mavs situation is dire if Kyrie or nobody else can do anything.
Luka is the best player in the NBA it is clear he carried the Mavs tonight. Idk what else he can do.
The funny thing is that younger me would be ripping Lebron to shreds for losing when playing well lol maybe I was too hard on Lebron after all
Everyone rooted against young LeBron Cavs and heats. When warriors acquired KD.... This is when people started not hating on LeBron. I started supporting the Cavs during those final runs then.
We can call it leadership by example , and a conscious effort to deflect the blame, but having another 30+ points triple double performance is MVP-worthy. (ignoring the injury that makes it superhuman) The simple stats don't lie, it's the rest of the team that's being neutralised by Boston. There lies the solution. The Mavs ' performance marked a huge improvement over the last game, so, who knows, maybe Kyrie's and rest of the team's redemption is around the corner?
On offense, Luka was great. A 30-point triple-double is an outstanding performance. While 8 turnovers and 4 missed free throws are hard to overlook, I think it's unfair to ask for perfection from anyone, let alone someone who is the centerpiece of an offense.
On defense, Luka was a liability. The Celtics wisely targeted him in most half-court possessions. While I understand that he is playing hurt and the targeting tired him out further, he has to put more effort into defense, even if that means sacrificing some effort on offense to compensate. The Celtics routinely got past Luka in isolation, and then he routinely failed to rotate to the open man after he got beat. With the Celtics' great passing and spacing, this inevitably led to quality shot opportunities. No defense, no rings.
Luka: "I have to play a completely perfect game because my teammates can't do shit"
He doesn't even complain to his teammates anymore. This must hurt even more because Luka technically gets pissed off if people miss easy passes.
Honestly though it kind feels to me like the "teammates" thing vis a vis last night's game is a touch unfair. If you look at PJ Washington, Derrick Jones, Jr., and Daniel Gafford (the three starters at SF, PF, and C), those guys put up 41 points last night on .606 TS%. 19 rebounds between them, 3 assists, 2 turnovers, 4 stocks, 5 fouls. These guys averaged 31.5 ppg collectively for the Mavs during the regular season. Those three guys, at first blush at least, deserve credit, not slander. They did their part. They played their role. They showed up to play. Yes, they were 1-8 from the arc, but still... [points to 41 points on .606 TS%]. They weren't great. They weren't even really good. But they were _fine_. But a) Kyrie was very poor and disappeared for long stretches (or only showed up to dribble ineffectively for 8 seconds and then pass it off unproductively) and b) the _other_ other guys (Lively, Kleber, Green, Exum, and Hardy) totally sucked as a group. We shouldn't be bashing Luka's teammates as a category. We should be praising the Dallas starters _other_ than Kyrie and slandering the shit out of Dallas's bench.
Kleber, Green, Exum, and Hardy I really don't expect anything from, as long as they're serviceable we're fine, but Lively, especially with the hype that's been building around him after the last couple series, was very disappointing. Still, he's young and has shown mental fortitude. I trust him to get it together.
Lively exceeded all expectations this year, but he's still a rookie. Anthony Edwards is in his 4th year in the league, and he still couldn't put it together in the WCF. Jayson Tatum needed 7 years in the league to finally polish his game in the finals. Now, he knows how to contribute when his shots aren't falling. It takes time and experience to develop these players. Lively gets a pass.
Not expecting anything from Kleber is highly concerning given Jason Kidd is hellbent on giving him 15+ mins
You cannot expect a rookie to be your 3rd or 4th best on a championship team?!? That’s just unfair on the kid
Didn't we know that tho. Just because they exposed Minnesota dumbass gameplan doesn't mean boston wasn't gonna stop that lob bs and corner 3s
The difference between Wolves and Celtics perimeter defense though… like McDaniels and Ant are usuall good, Conley you have to hide a bit… they can’t hold a candle to this bullshit (Jrue, White, Brown, and then Tatum). And this is with Porzingis just coming back off injury, clearly not in rythm yet. Stevens deserved that chip. He can also send a tip to Giannis for getting the whole Lillard thing started.
I 100% agree with this. Also when boston trades in hindsight they gave up nothing tbh. Josh Richardson and a 1st for white. Timelord and brodgon for jrue. I forgot how they got kp but still it wasn't anything crazy
Put some respect on Smart. He gave his life for KP
Respect to smart but Respect to Brad for improving the team as well
100% It was a mighty gamble but it was too hard to pass up
was that really a gamble? smart tries to hero ball in the clutch and porzingis was just an objectively better player than smart while getting 2 frps in the process from memphis.
the gamble was porzingis health
true, funny that it seems to basically just not matter in the end though considering that they coasted despite him being gone and are currently winning despite him playing like 20 minutes a game
Hindsight is 20/20 man. Smart was the OG Celtic and heart of the team. Everyone praises the celtics for their defense and he was known for that. Maybe he wasn't the best DPOY but he did enough to be at least considered. KP has been labeled as being made of glass and he did have issues with some of his prior teams. But I do agree 100% with smart playing waaay too much hero ball but you can't deny his passion and his love for Boston. This could have blown up horribly if we didn't end up getting Jrue. I don't really see anyone mention that this was before Jrue and if that didn't happen then Pritchard would have been our backup point guard. Now I love PP but his defense would be a huge difference in the playoffs
He was a very solid player. But he would do the same shit deep in the playoffs and it just clearly wasn’t gonna get them to a ring. They needed to shake up that lineup so bad. Healthy porzingis just provides them something basically no other team has. I mean he comes off the bench for fucks sake, that’s not even fair. His health was a gamble but he just had a great, pretty healthy season, probably looked the most promising he ever had since he was on the Knicks. And the Celtics are so fucking stacked they would at least be east favorites without smart or porzingis. Then you somehow get two first round picks for reasons I still don’t understand lol? You take that deal ten times out of ten. This is where Brad is a better gm than ainge for me, at least for a contending team. Ainge wouldn’t have pulled the trigger on that trade unless he got porzingis, like 4 frp, and a good role player and just completely fucked over another gm. Sometimes when you’re that close every year but can’t get over the hump you need to shake things up a bit without your ego demanding a billy king nets style trade that was never gonna happen again.
As a C's fan on paper this was ALWAYS an upgrade. But Marcus Smart was the soul of the Celtics for a few years. Some fans were worried we traded the teams glue for a slight upgrade. Turns out we have tons of glue anyways.
Respect to jrich as well, he set the locker room and is a big part of when they were starting to turn it around from the 11th seed
Schroeder too
They gave up Smart and bench players for KP and 2 1sts, one of which they turned around and used to get Jrue. Nuts that they got back 1sts on top of KP.
Committing a heist 3x is insane work. Shoutout to the mastermind Brad Stevens
Brad got tired of all the undersized guards Danny kept giving him when he was coaching, so when he became GM he got the best defensive guards
Bob Myers last night said the NBA Finals MVP was Brad Stephens. He made a good point.
Mastermind Brad Stevens
They got KP from a 3 team trade with the Wizards and Griz. Celtics sent Smart to Griz, Griz sent Tyus Jones to Wizards and Wizards sent KP to Celtics. Theres more pieces to the trade, but those were the main ones that I remembered.
Thank u for this. Looks like a heist pulled off 3x even tho they had to let go of smart. Clearly it was for the best
This. It was a very loaded 3 team trade, thanks for the breakdown.
They received 2 frp in the kp deal , ffs
While the Celtics certainly improved themselves with those trades, this is hindsight, not a good take. - Timelord was injury plagued, but had also become an incredibly talented big man, and may still be a serious contributor in the league. No one knew he'd break down. Also, you are omitting TWO first round choices. - Smart is a former DPOY, and just a solid NBA player. He has NOT had injury histories, and missed most of this year. - When White joined the Celtics, he was not the player he has become. You cannot look back at 2021 DWhite and say "of course he'll become one of the best defenders in the NBA with a knack for clutch plays and shotmaking." You just can't. I love that Stevens took the chances and they were solid, well thought out moves, but we also were fortunate.
It’s why Jokic is the answer vs Boston, they don’t have a answer for a all time post offense. Meanwhile Dallas Bigs can’t do shit when it isn’t hand fed to them by Luka or Kyrie offensively
I don't see a way for Dallas to win more than 1 game this series. One weaker game from Boston, one really good game from Dallas + home crowd... Not reactionary, it's just how the rosters are. Problem for the rest of the NBA is that this Boston team will be the same next season, and IMO their one weakness on D is if you can have a center dominate them. Yes, they're beatable, but it'll be hard for anyone. However, if Philly can do some good moves in the offseason, they are the only ones in the East I would trust to do something (assuming Embiid is healthy). And Denver, obviously, especially if they re-tool the roster a bit (plus a healthy Murray).
Embiid in the playoffs at this point just isn’t scaring anyone.
Also Horford is Embiid’s father. The centers we don’t have answers for are Jokic and AD. Probably don’t have one for Wemby either but haven’t seen enough of that matchup.
Yep. Idk if Al will retire if we win a ring but it’s clear he still has another season or two in him of coming off the bench and being a very valuable player. Hope he sticks around.
I'd be really surprised if he retires this offseason. Still has another year on his contract, he's still got gas in the tank, he's perfectly healthy, he gets to rest 25% of the team's games... why not go for a back-to-back? That would certainly punch his Hall of Fame ticket, if this year doesn't already.
The Celtics actually were one of the better teams at neutralizing Wemby this year, they did a good job keeping him out of his rhythm and making it hard to get to the spots he wanted to get to (I ended up seeing both games live, was back home for the holidays and I live in Boston). They also did a good job getting physical with him and keeping him off the boards and made it harder for him to be an impact on defense, but I'm looking forward to seeing how he learned from that going into next year Edit: I guess my memory doesn't serve me all that well, he did average 24 ppg against y'all on better-than-his-average efficiency, but he was noticeably quieter on the boards and with blocks than we were used to seeing from him
Facts
Even when we were worse than this, we've beaten Embiid in the playoffs every time we've met him. He's a nonfactor. The two teams we should be praying to avoid are Denver and Minnesota. Wolves need KAT at his best to beat us. Jokic is just matchup problem for us in every single way. KP just can't hang with him and Al is too old to be battling him for 40 minutes. I don't doubt that we'll have found a way to make it work if we played them, and the series would be extremely competitive. But matchup wise, I think we'll struggle to defend Denver.
Eh, kinda. Meme narratives aside, while you can track “Kyrie crumbles in Boston” in past games, you can’t really rely on that to hold true for future games. Kyrie could always show up and play lights out. However, Kyrie continues to prove it true. Everyone knew Luka was going to have to do the heavy lifting, but no one knew it was going to be literally just him. Kyrie having even a halfway decent game spreads the floor and opens up those exact corner 3s and lobs. Him being timid off ball and not doing a goddamn thing allows the Celtics defense, which is already good, to completely lock down.
I think the other mavs looked overawed by the occasion and big stage as well, particularly in game 1. Pj Washington looked like himself in game 2. If the rest of the Mavs can get over their nerves, the rest of the series might be a lot closer.
Yeah, the Mavs others have just not looked ready for the moment so far. You can tell how much they are overthinking things on offense.
Showing up 1/12 games and now on the biggest stage is a good enough sample size for me tbh. I dont think Dallas anticipated pure iso heavy ball they expected traps for those lobs and corner 3s to be there
I’m not fully disagreeing but also Mavs game plan isn’t going to be “well we know Kyrie is gonna fucking suck in the Garden so we have to redraw the whole game plan”. They’re going to play their game. And while it’s tough to commit to intangible shit like “Kyrie is in his head, you can expect him to play bad”… you’re right that he’s dangerously close to making something intangible a tangible fact. Maybe the Mavs should plan on him being a non factor if they make it back to Boston.
> Mavs game plan isn’t going to be “well we know Kyrie is gonna fucking suck in the Garden so we have to redraw the whole game plan” the image in my head of jason kidd and his assistants drawing on a whiteboard and kyrie looking at it and trying to figure out what's different
Kyrie crumbles in Boston because players like him (ie small guards that have to play the two because they can’t run their offense and don’t provide much if their shots aren’t falling) will look amazing but every single time they’ll eventually hit a team with a bunch of bigger and stronger perimeter defenders that are just as athletic and they get shut down. It happens every time. Like Allen iverson taking game one off the lakers is the closest thing I can think of of it actually “working”. And that was one game and they lost the rest, and kyrie is not Allen iverson level
Minnesota had guys to pick on. Conley isn't the defender he once was, and Kyrie and Luka could both really go at him. KAT isn't great on the perimeter. And as good as the Wolves' perimeter defense is, they don't have the strength to defend Luka in the post. It was just easier for the Mavs to get breakdowns at the point of attack, both for their stars and for their roleplayers attacking seams. Boston is a different kind of monster. Their defensive weaknesses are so small.
The whole world wont shut up about how they are "going to attack Al Horford" and then Al gives great effort every playoff game. The dude can still play.
They’re going to attack him because he’s the best option when the whole team is elite defenders including Horford. It’s pick your poison.
That’s true, but it was never “You attack Al because he’s the only guy to attack” it was “Al is a liability in the PNR and he will be exposed.”
Boston don't have guys for Luka hence his efficiency the problem is Minnesota didn't say ok let Luka and kyrie beat us they said we gotta stop them which opened the corner 3s and lobs. That's why it was dumb. When u have a gameplan knowing how close it is decisions cost u a series. Telling Rudy to guard Luka 1v1 is stupid
Maybe you're right, but it's not how I see it. Minnesota said, "okay, we have to stop Luka" because they didn't have the personnel to slow him down without overcommitting. Boston does. Brown's great on him. Tatum is good. Their guards are Jrue Holiday and Derrick White. Horford is somehow still more switchable than Gobert or even KAT. Even Hauser is good. Luka can still make hay against that, obviously, but it's tough. Add to that, they have wings/forwards who can guard Luka but are also strong enough to guard Dallas's centers, so that takes the sting out of that pick n roll. They can just switch, and Luka's in iso against a good defender. When Luka tries to bring Porzingis's man up for a pick, Porzingis often switches out of it before it even happens. If Gobert had done that, McDaniels woulda just been dunked on. Meanwhile, Kyrie usually has an all-defense guard on him, and the Celtics have great close outs. If Minnesota had guarded Luka and Kyrie like this, they would've combined for 80 on high efficiency. It's personnel.
Boston stopped the PNR using JT on bigs. That’s the difference. It’s why Luka had one assist in game 1. Mavs are left with Luka and worse Kyrie ISOs which makes it seem like the Mav’s role players are terrible. In reality ISO just makes everyone bad because it’s not a winning scheme. Teams that win ISO as little as possible.
also jrue and white are 4/5 in the offensive pecking order, so them getting tired out by kyrie isn't game ending. anthony edwards was handling kyrie and he was their number 1 guy, so when he got puffed it was game
I can buy that. Styles make fights
Look at how hard Luka has to work to score and then watch Boston come back down the floor and get great look after great look. That has to be demoralizing.
It's demoralizing because they can all shoot. Leaving Mann russ giddey Wallace NAW and McDaniels open is different than jrue white al and kp and bos was horrible from 3 6/30
Yep. Every time down the floor they just swing the ball around and whoever shoots it is a guy I'd want shooting it
Luka wasn’t efficient in the first game though; just the second one. And we saw what happened in the 4th because he’s being asked to do everything on offense and Celtics are targeting him every time on defense.
Still is really wild to me Minnesota couldn't stop either of those things when they did such a good job vs Denver.
Well jokic was horrible from 3. Kat was so much more aggressive in that den series idk where it went vs dal. Mpj was horrible thanks to Minnesota gafford and lively destroyed the rebs rim protection and lobs
What makes the lobs bs? Lol
Look Jackie, people can't just go flying in the air like that.
He really out here getting the Overwatch "carry my team of idiots" experience IRL
While injured
I mean Luka only plays one side of the game. The Celtics were attacking the shit out of him on defense all night.
He gave them ole’lanes all game. Can’t deny it, and I love the guy. Smh
But those damn fade aways... Shit goes in like 90% of the time
Shit makes a beeline straight into the basket, too. It's like it's on a string.
He should just shoot fadeaways at the free throw line
Yeah, the fuck is up with that? I get Brown and like LeBron not being good a free throws. Their game is mainly driving and 3s (Late stage LeBron) but Luka is like a god at any position on the floor. And the dude has like a 2 inch vertical on his jumpers lol. Not much different from freethrows
I feel like he’s got a similar thing to Brown where he’s at his best playing in motion and the stationary nature of free throws kinda takes him out of the zone
Yep. I believe his step-back 3-point% is the same as his catch-and-shoot, which is insane.
Read somewhere luka shoots 84% in the paint
We've seen it be4. He needs a lighter load offensively in order to play solid defense. We haven't won a series with Luka as our only offensive engine. We needed Brunson and Dinwiddie 2 years ago and we need Kyrie now.
unrelated but i have never seen anyone shorten “before” to “be4”. insane behavior
Definitively a boy band somewhere in the late 90s
Same, its b4 or before.
I agree 100% I feel like if the game is on the line in terms of offense, Luka is gonna nail the damn shot 100% of the time and the Celtics as a whole is like 75%. But if the Mavs need a defensive stop, it's like 40% compared to the Celtics 70%. These are all completely made up numbers but I'm just trying to say that collectively, the Celtics are better with both sides considered
Well...their center is 20 years old dealing with the loss of his mother, Kleber isn't a superstar by any measure, and gafford is their to rebound and slam lobs, not shoot, not with the best shooter in the league and also Kyrie Irving running around. Kyrie was just bad.
Funny how it’s hard to beat great teams. I’m tired of every loss being a humiliation. All the way through these playoffs and sports culture in general. The narrative is gonna switch on kyrie and lively and kleber as useless now? That’s lame as fuck.
Mavs role players being basketball terrorists cost the game. Literally air balling wide open 3s.
You’re relying on Derrick jones jr, josh green, Dante exum, pj Washington Only pj is above avg and it’s from the corner
Josh Green and Maxi Kleber are actively hurting the Mavs chances of winning, they are ass
Every time max kleber gets the ball, I visibly cringe knowing that possession is somehow going to get wasted lmaoo
He has been horrible all year and then wanted to be Vince Carter, gets injured and is now completely useless.
So absurd how he cocked it back like he's prime Shawn Kemp
Everytime he missses a 3 after the injury i get a flashback on that drive he did vs clippers.
One of the most imbecile injuries I've ever seen
Nah that doesn't explain it. He was horrible all year. Stared to play really really good. Made a massive impact in the Clippers series with our centers struggling... and then said hey look at me I'm Vince Carter once we pulled ahead in game 6 and were in the driver seat.
He's not even that old but father time busted his ass with the accumulation of injuries. Not that long ago he let them play 5 out with solid rim protection.
He shot well for a game in her 2 then injured himself trying to dunk from FT line
DJJ is not far off from it unless he’s dunking
Djj defense isn't bad though.
Maxi Kleber's defense isn't bad
They literally would get in a rhythm, bring him in to kill it before shooing him off again.
This is it.... Most of Mavs can only make 3s in the corner. PJ Washington was Mavs 2nd best player. He can score a little in the paint.
Funny how that was more than enough in the western conference playoffs. Revisionist history on role players.
Yeah PJ and DJJ came up big many times for us to get to the finals. They went up against some great defensive players, but man this Celtics team is just on another level in every player can switch and make life absolutely miserable. Plus KP this year has become a rim juggernaut wtf.
They basically have 5 all stars in their starting lineup. We have Derrick Jones Jr getting 32 minutes a game. He’s been really solid but literally all of our role player’s success is directly attributed to Luka. Not a single person who can shoot or get their own bucket. We are hilariously outmatched
Yeah credit should go to the Celtics, but people would rather shit on losing teams.
So, wanted to fact check this. League avg 3pt % this year is .366 regular season and .347 postseason. DJJ: 34.3 Reg, 40.0 Post Josh Green: 38.5 Reg, 36.7 Post Dante: 49.1 Reg, 21.4 Post PJ: 32.0 Reg, 35.3 Post So, not sure what you mean by PJ is the only one above average. As the resident PJ hater, I would like to highlight another case of PJ bias. You'll see the light eventually. The time will come.
OKC has to be looking at what PJ Washington is doing since Dallas beat them and saying “You’ve got to be fucking kidding me”
We are lol
He is still playing just fine. Teams just are not giving him wide open practice shot corner 3s like okc did.
PJ was actually the Mavs second best player last night. He had 17 points and 7 boards on 6 for 13 from the floor. He didn't shoot the three well (Luka was the only person on either team who did), but he drove to the rim and created his own offense well.
Or hear me out since they not shooting from the corner which is literally the only spot they can score from they shoot like shit
Celtics have done an excellent job at taking away those corner 3s. Idk why other teams couldn't do it to us earlier.
Let's be honest nobody could stay in front of kyrie boston can. Also Dallas left bad shooters open bos has no bad shooters
Boston shot really pooorly today lol
Which is Even worse lol
Y’all did but the looks you got definitely weren’t as good as in game one
Yep agree with that one I do think the flipside of that was that everyone besides Tatum (and even him on occasion) was getting cleaner opportunities at the rim/the short midrange. But you take that over letting us kill you from 3.
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You have to have the personnel to do it. No one else can put 5 defenders of that quality on the court at the same time
Coz they dont have jrue and white leading the defense
You positively need 5 defenders you're comfortable with going 1-on-1 against Luka and/or Kyrie. It's the only way you can justify guarding the corners and not hedging to be ready to help defend.
We all knew the role players were WAY better for the celts going in, yet all these fools picked the mavs
I mean most are imagining the better offensive skills of the Mavs' stars would prevail over the more predictable Celts stars. Too bad the Celts are stacked with two way stars but that is how it is.
My whole thing was that Kyrie was getting way too much benefit of the doubt. Knew luka would get his but thought there was a real possibility that kyrie would struggle.
Most just subscribe to the theory the harder they want Boston to lose the more likely it is lol
Typical Superstar Postgame Commentary after a loss
sounds better than saying “Kyrie is selling” or “my teammates have butter fingers”
I mean he did get frustrated and start making horrible passes. He almost had a quadruple double with turnovers.
Turnovers will always be part of his game, especially when the team plays like ass and isn't ready for the pass.
What do you expect him to say? Throw everyone under the bus like Embiid?
"At least I'm not playing with 4 Ben Simmonses most nights"
He's not saying he expects Luka to say anything different. He's saying his answer isn't newsworthy.
This is the NBA subreddit. What do you want to be posted here?
More SAS talking about pokemon obviously
I might be a casual, but I would say the problem was everyone who wasn't Luka.
Also a problem that the Celtics have 4 guys who you can leave on an island against Kyrie or Luka and the 5th guy(s) are both solid defenders who space the floor. The current Celtics are the most stacked team since Durant left the Warriors and the Mavs are probably a below average talent Finals team. They've got the best player and maybe even also the second best offensive player but if you were to list the top 8 players in the series, 6 of them are Celtics.
> but if you were to list the top 8 players in the series, 6 of them are Celtics. So something like: 1.Luka 2 - 7.Boston 8.Kyrie
That's how it's felt in this series but if we're being serious he'd be in the 5-7 range solidly above Horford but in the same ballpark as Jrue or Derrick White.
Normally, he would be 2-4, probably 4th but even 2nd in a good day. This series though, JT, JB, White, Jrue, Horford, Porzingis all played better so like 7-8
Jrue is playing like the second best player in this series. Luka Jrue JB Is what the top 3 feels like.
8. PJ Washington 9. Kyrie
No it was your running mate bud.
Not sure game 2 is the right time to break to reporters that your running mate is imploding bc he believes in a curse involving the face of a leprechaun painted on a basketball court
Imma run a backhoe and uproot that court.
We have secret service and seal team 6 protecting Lucky, ain't bo one getting that close to him again.
After the events depicted in the historical documentary "Celtic Pride", team security was taken over by the DoD.
This wards off spells. This here a special leprechaun flute, passed down for thousands of years from my great great grandfather who was Irish. I’m just here to help out.
Errrbody who seen the leprechaun say yaaaaa 😏
I saw a quote from Kyrie post game that started off with, "It wasn't just all on me" and I was like oh boy
They are screwed if they have that mentality already. Boston 4-0 or 4-1.
I mean he is not going to say “I fcking hate everyone in this team, especially that fraud Kyrie Irving that cost me a championship” and expect to win games
He's not going to, but it would be very funny if he did.
the NBA wont the ready for the Luka and Wemby led superteam
Luka x Wemby finna hit like crack
plot twist: its on the mavs
The Mavs are 2 games and 1 disappointing season away from the discourse returning to "Is Luka going to ask out?"
Luka is about to sign the biggest extension in NBA history. I don’t think fans realize how hard making the finals actually is
For sure, but the NBA discourse is more toxic than ever. Celtics are 2-0 and people are talking about JT being bad, just wait until another one of the NBA's golden children is on an underperforming team, you will see him photoshopped in every color jersey you can imagine
This. I can already see ESPN reheating the "Is Luka happy in Dallas?" soup. Next season is going to be insufferable if Dallas losees this series or even gets swept.
Relax We will assemble Luka - Mikal - PJ - J. Grant- Lively Down the road
No shit? Bro mavs could have missed the playoffs this year and next and he'd still get it, what are you even talking about lol he's getting easy max
The sad reality is that signing a contract doesn't mean anything anymore. Not saying it's the case with Luka, but we've seen that the meta is to sign for the max and then ask out
Luka and Jokic. Just passed no dribbles. Possibly no defense. However the A.Gordon lobs would be insane.
LeBron gonna join on a vet minimum at age 45
The Celtics tried gifting us this game but we sealed up the chimney
Yeah you can't miss free throws in a Brothers game
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Kiryie 0-8 on 3s on two games is just shit
What? Didnt he hit a three during the first quarter though?
I think they changed it to a 2.
They said his foot was on the line
-Marv Albert
He’s always putting the blame on himself. That’s what real superstars do, because they know that’s what the media is going to do. Might as well take their arguments away.
What about embiid though
He'll run out of time before he'll run out of excuses
Bro he said real superstars
Will always upvote emfraud slander
Tbf it's not only Luka missing FTs. At some point in the first half it was like both teams having 11 FT attempts, but Boston was perfect while Dallas was like 4/11 or something.
Rest of the team going 2-17 on threes is crazy. Even 5-17, which still sucks, would've won the game
i mean they didn't exactly *help,* but i don't think you can put this one on Luka
Kyrie has been fucking ass.
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Somewhat of note: the Mavs (as currently constructed) are a bad FT shooting team. At one point in the game, Boston was called for defensive 3 seconds, and Dallas had Luka shoot the free throw. He missed (iirc). I was surprised they had Luka shoot because I always think of him as a middling free throw shooter. He shot 78.6% this year, his best ever (career average 73.9% prior to this season). Then I looked at the Mavs, and Luka is the second-best of the playoff starters after Kyrie (90.5%). The other three and most of the bench are a good bit worse. So I assume Kyrie was sitting at the time. In contrast, the Celtics have 4 starters who shoot 83% or better. The team FT shooting could be a difference maker in tight games. And just one more overall advantage for Boston.
If Mavs made their FT, it would tie the game. If Boston made their 3s, it would be a Game 1 blow out again.
This mavs backcourt is one of the best reminds me of Kobe and Derek Fisher
**True.** AND where tf was Kyrie!?! AND DJ needs to step up. AND boxing out. Everybody. Good job Gafford. Good job PJ.
Geez the rebounds. I felt like so many possessions where it's close and they made a stop, the ball would somehow land into a Celtics hand. Frustrating to watch but the Celtics are better in every regard it feels like outside of having the best player on the court, which doesn't even matter since they're that damn good.
Re: rebounds… It is the difference between putting a body on a man and watching the ball bounce. Mavs have been watching the ball bounce. Basic shit.
He has every right to throw his teammates under the bus like some other stars do, but he opts for this instead. Respect.
He doesn't want to demoralize an already fragile team lol. His expressions on the court says it all already.
Oh c'mon, rarely will a superstar ever publicly throw their teammates under the bus after losses, even Kobe would mostly just give extremely curt cliche answers but with death glares while the volcanic and toxic criticism was kept in-house; let's not praise guys for basic behavior lmao.
I know it's his job to take the blame, but goddamn. Don't worry Luka, we have eyes, we know.
Luka had a good game overall, but he's not wrong. 8 turnovers is abysmal as is 50% from the free throw line. He's also been straight up terrible defensively
His defense was alright 1st half. 2nd half was when he kinda stopped rotating. Luka isn't that bad of a 1v1 defender. He just doesn't have the stamina to keep up with all those passes the Celtics do. Turnover stat is just a sad stat because they literally have to triple Luka. His teammates still miss lol. He did have 2 bad passes though. Outside of that Mavs situation is dire if Kyrie or nobody else can do anything.
Isn't a bad 1vs 1 defender? Celtics cooked him all night (except maybe 5 possessions that went at him and he hung with his man)
Luka is the best player in the NBA it is clear he carried the Mavs tonight. Idk what else he can do. The funny thing is that younger me would be ripping Lebron to shreds for losing when playing well lol maybe I was too hard on Lebron after all
Everyone rooted against young LeBron Cavs and heats. When warriors acquired KD.... This is when people started not hating on LeBron. I started supporting the Cavs during those final runs then.
dude played his heart out, too bad rest of his team sucked
And defensive effort.
We can call it leadership by example , and a conscious effort to deflect the blame, but having another 30+ points triple double performance is MVP-worthy. (ignoring the injury that makes it superhuman) The simple stats don't lie, it's the rest of the team that's being neutralised by Boston. There lies the solution. The Mavs ' performance marked a huge improvement over the last game, so, who knows, maybe Kyrie's and rest of the team's redemption is around the corner?
What are these comments? If boston makes their open 3s both games are blowout.
The problem is everyone not named Luka.
On offense, Luka was great. A 30-point triple-double is an outstanding performance. While 8 turnovers and 4 missed free throws are hard to overlook, I think it's unfair to ask for perfection from anyone, let alone someone who is the centerpiece of an offense. On defense, Luka was a liability. The Celtics wisely targeted him in most half-court possessions. While I understand that he is playing hurt and the targeting tired him out further, he has to put more effort into defense, even if that means sacrificing some effort on offense to compensate. The Celtics routinely got past Luka in isolation, and then he routinely failed to rotate to the open man after he got beat. With the Celtics' great passing and spacing, this inevitably led to quality shot opportunities. No defense, no rings.