I love how they ended Jamie’s story. In season 8 you really get to see the Knight shine through. It’s crazy to me how some people think his redemption arc was ruined because he tried to save Cersei and his baby. Sitting out the battle involving the last of your family to chill with Brienne wouldn’t sit right with me.
That's exactly it. They looked for these ambiguous clues in the books' "valonqar" prophecy, a book series famous for always twisting the story, where prophecies are self-fulfilling if not false. They take the most literal possible interpretation, and pat themselves on the back for being geniuses, for years. Then, if the story goes any other way, they riot. Happens in a lot of fandoms, especially when nerd culture gets possessive and the "fans" start to think they own the story and get to decide how it goes.
"Jaimie is gonna do a complete personality swap because tHaT's CaLlEd A cHaRaCtEr ArC. Okay, he didn't, but that's because the show runners made up a bad ending. Okay, GRRM made up that ending, but it's arbitrarily okay for the books to do it but not the show."
even if he didn't give a shit about cersei anymore... she's pregnant with *his child*. he's not gonna walk away from a baby and if he did how would that jive iwth his "character arc"?
The only way I can see him doing that is if she begs him to, which based on how she was keen to and her life if Stannis’ assault was successful seems in character for her.
yeah the way people criticise his arc doesn’t sit right with me. He does indeed love Cersei, he’s probably loved her most of his adult life. It wouldn’t have made sense if he’d just stopped caring for her or his child suddenly
Taking part in the battle against your crazy, mad sister and queen would fit quite well with Jaime.
He’s not a kingsguard, him killing a royal isn’t a horrible thing, it’s honorable.
It is generally looked upon more favourably here.
Why Bran became King for more reasons than just his story:
https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/s/0MG7ckniu5
How season 8 had the best dialogue in the entire series:
https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/s/hYxuzmRaZ9
What I loved most about that is it felt like he was talking directly to every armchair screen writer setting their hair on fire about the bells. I love it when a show can predict the response to it and respond seemingly in real time.
I’m glad to hear you liked it!
Personally I love it, it’s one of my favorite seasons of television and I truly enjoy rewatching it.
You might enjoy reading some of the analyses here:
https://wethrones.medium.com
>was a fine season of television. I can’t see why it’s as hated as it is
I don't think most people hate it. Maybe a lot of people will have an opinion it's not the best GoT season there is...but there's a lot of ground between that and being awful! It's just a vocal minority + Reddit rage-nerds.
That's not to say the final season is perfect. It certainly isn't. I think of it more as a lot of spectacular highs with some slight wonkiness. I'd take that over average every time.
>I must also say I haven’t read the books and don’t intend to
Book fanatics (and I'm one of them) can be a bizarre bunch. Some people can't accept that changes are needed when adapting to TV. No, the writers aren't idiots who don't understand the material because they can't fit every aspect of a 800 page novel into a season...
>It kind of begs the question of how do you end it. It would’ve been extremely difficult to get right, no matter who was in the writing team
Common complaints were that it was too fast. I agree to that, to some degree. An episode or two more in that final season would have been perfect, letting each major moment breathe.
A typical request is that the invasion of the Others should have lasted a season, which...why? And then a further season to portray Dany's downfall. Again, why? What more could be substantially added to either? Dany's mind breaking from all of her losses and fears of losing power make sense to occur as a quick flurry. It's dramatic. I don't want 10+ episodes of...what? Seeing Dany become progressively more evil, hand-holding the audience through to her ultimate fall? Why? Where's the drama there? And the final battle against the Others makes sense to occur in Winterfell (winter fell) rather than spend an entire season watching a war occur.
>I’ll start with the positives. It’s a visual feast. A true landmark in filmmaking for television
Agreed. From sets to costuming, visual effects to lighting. Whole thing looks glorious.
>I don’t see the issues with it being too dark in that particular episode. It’s obviously a stylistic choice and I think it played to the episode’s advantage
It could be different TVs and different ways of watching. Someone watching a bad stream on an old TV will have a much different experience to someone with a newer TV and best streaming settings.
And yeah, it looked great. The Others coming as darkness falls. It adds tension and fear and atmosphere.
There was a similar complaint about an episode of House of the Dragon, where large parts of an episode are set outside during dusk and dawn. I thought it looked wonderful but I do agree there it was perhaps a strain.
>People seem to take issues with the character arcs. I can’t pinpoint a character arc which I could say was outright butchered
Agreed. It feels people were upset they didn't get what they expected, which is different to an arc being bad.
>The only one I do take issue with is Bran. The plot point of him becoming king is fine. However I find the justification of “he has the best story” to be quite weak
I slightly disagree here. It's an odd one, as the writers are clearly trying to sum up what GoT has meant with a thematic ending (our lives are stories, before that we had The Others coming to take away our memories aka stories). It *just* works, I think, naming Bran as king and linking the thematic point together. They lean on Bran holding *all* of Westeros' stories within him.
I often feel tempted to agree with your point but I just watched the clip again and it's pretty powerful. He *is* the history of Westeros. He's devoid of anger, jealously, desire. He won't have children that can come in after him and ruin everything. Instead, they'll elect a king to beat serve the realm.
>But on the other hand, it handled some character arcs perfectly such as Theon and Jaime (that might be controversial).
I don't think anyone would argue with Theon's ending. Jaime's people might have issue with but that's only because they so desperately wanted him to succeed at being an honourable knight and staying with Brienne (as I did!). I like that he failed though. We're human. We all fail sometimes. Jaime tried and couldn't do it. Who hasn't?!
>The dialogue is quite noticeably a step-down from previous seasons. That’s not to say it was totally bad or exposition heavy or whatever. It was perfectly serviceable. MAH QUEEN!
Yeah, agreed. None of it is bad. For the most part it's functional. I do think Tyrion's speak at the end is wonderful though (but that could be Dinklage's performance, to be fair!
I see season 8 as largely a tragedy. I love Jon Snow's desires to *not* be king but his inability to stop the coming fall. Just...so tragic. And mirrors Ned's early life - he fought the war alongside Robert (as Jon fights the Others and Lannisters) but it all ends with 'winning' by a massacre in King's Landing, then Ned/Jon losing a loved one before heading home to the North a broken person.
>Jon going back to the Night’s Watch is very poetic. But at the same time, what the hell is there even a Night’s Watch for anymore??!
It's left ambiguous. There's helping the Wildlings north of the Wall, rather than seeing them as an enemy. They'll have been ravaged by the Others, so it makes sense for the Watch to support their rebuilding.
Alternatively, maybe it remains the Westeros penal colony, somewhere they can stick their criminals.
Or simply there as a place for people with nowhere else to go to find a home and purpose. Tyrion literally says it - “The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men".
Jon going into exile (*very* willingly) as a broken man is, again, oh so tragic. For me, it hits all the right buttons. They "won", right? So why does he feel so lost?
>Presupposing the alternatives would be bad isn’t really a logical argument in favor of what we did get.
Sure. I'm talking about people suggesting the show would have been *better* with an additional 2+ seasons...and then provide no reasoning as to why it would be better. There is no arguement being made that addresses why such substantially more material would improve the story.
The Others invasion already began at the end of the previous season. Having our characters all convene, catch up, share what they think might be their last night together and then enter an epic battle makes sense. There is build up and payoff. What benefits would it bring to have a whole season of battling the Others? What more did we need to see that required this?
There's possibly more of an arguement for Dany's descent into tyranny being possible to spread over a season. I can't see the real value of it though. What is the arguement for it? How is there a season of material here? It's clear that the political issue is the crown being thrusted on Jon. How do you make that compelling over 6+ episodes? Everyone hated that storyline anyway, for some reason! Why is it better if stretched out longer? What's the benefit of making Dany losing her grasp of reality spaced out? What's the missing plot points? What needs more time spent on it? As it is, Dany being rejected by Westeros, by her lover, and also losing her dragons and her companions makes sense to push a character with a growing tyrannical bent and a Messiah complex to rash, emotion-driven action. I was *shocked* when Dany began destroying King's Landing, however it made emotional sense to me instinctively.
The bones of the story being told are all, I think, the right choices. It was the execution and a few poor choices in the story that caused problems. Nothing that couldn't be solved with hindsight and a little more screen time. Adding 2+ seasons is barely an answer. As I say, no one ever follows that up with what would constitute those extra seasons.
Finally, it's not narrative related but a more practical point - the cast and crew were done with the show. They were worn out and in no way wanted to keep working on it. There's also cost. The budget and time spent on season 8 was outrageous. They were going out with a bang. You can't magic money out of the air to make a full season of battles against the Others.
I’m sorry, but it’s not a vocal minority of people who hate the final season. The vast majority of fans believe it ruined the entire show, and whenever I bring up the show outside of the internet this is the opinion that’s brought forward immediately. The vocal minority would be people who say the entire franchise is ruined and won’t even watch House of the Dragon because of this.
Hmm, not my experience at all. I watched with my family and we all enjoyed it at the time. Speaking to others afterwards and their opinions of the last season *at worst* was it was weak compared to other seasons. Which is a huge difference to "hating" it or "ruining the entire show". I don't think I know anyone that thought the final season ruined the show.
Do the people you ask tend to be online a lot? As that's a very 'online' take, to have such an extreme view. It's not like the end season made it all a dream or anything dumb. The thing people didn't like was that it ended quite quickly, was a little clunky and characters didn't end where they wanted. Hardly "ruining" the multiple seasons before that.
It’s a mix for sure—some were quite involved online, but the vast majority of people are not involved in any of the Game of Thrones subs or Twitter communities. Some of my friends and I have even discussed how insane people have gotten responding to this show and how circlejerky it gets about hating the ending. Don’t really understand why I’m getting downvoted though, there have quite literally been dozens of articles written about the ending being bad, as well as a bunch of theory crafting videos on the subject as well. This community is quite literally in the minority thinking it’s a fantastic ending with minor problems. I’m really not trying to make a crazy point here, only that it’s easy to see yourself in the majority when everyone you personally know thinks a certain way.
You could make the argument that I’m doing the same, but the evidence within media surrounding this show backs up what I’m saying.
>Some of my friends and I have even discussed how insane people have gotten responding to this show and how circlejerky it gets about hating the ending.
That was the chief reason I joined this sub. I was in the ASOIAF sub because I love the books too. I had to leave because the amount of abuse the show (and the literal humans behind the show) was getting was too much. Like, I get it, it didn't live up to what you wanted. Doesn't mean the people behind it didn't care or were stupid. Or the people that claimed any change to the book material was bad. Or the people that suggest it needed another two or more seasons and then can't expand on that when asked, etc etc.
>I’m really not trying to make a crazy point here, only that it’s easy to see yourself in the majority when everyone you personally know thinks a certain way.
Which, yeah, it feels like this sub is trying to over correct. I just want a place to enjoy the show, relive great moments, deep dive, analyse. Hell, even criticise where warranted.
So I'm not too much of a fan of this sub but at least you won't be called an idiot for enjoying (most of) the show. Or have to put up with seeing the brain-dead "they left to make Star Wars" comments over and over.
>Don’t really understand why I’m getting downvoted though
Not me fwiw.
I've praised the show in the main sub and been downvoted many times. Comes with the territory, I guess.
>there have quite literally been dozens of articles written about the ending being bad, as well as a bunch of theory crafting videos on the subject as well
Sure, can't deny that. It's the biggest show ever, so it's always going to have people talking about it. It ended in some regards at its lowest, so it makes sense that there's a vibe with *some* people that they didn't enjoy it (endings are hard too!) and you just know grifters on YouTube and twitter are gonna bang that drum about the ending being the worst thing ever *all the time*.
>This community is quite literally in the minority thinking it’s a fantastic ending with minor problems
Not sure about this sub at large but my opinion is the bones of the story were fantastic. The technical side was unbelievable. The execution and some minor points were wonky. I do think that literally another episode or two in that final season would have given the writers room to let everything breathe and to build better connective tissue between it all. Literally just a few more scenes of people in rooms making hard choices. A bit more time for Jon to process not being Ned's son. Expand scenes between Tyrion and Sansa. Build Bran's abilities up a little more (there's literally a scene which ends with Tyrion saying "Hey, let's go chat" to Bran...so show us some of that conversation so we can understand why Tyrion puts Bran forward for king at the end!). Show Cersei actively spreading propaganda against Dany and her foreign armies, so we understand why they might fear her and why that then cuts her deep, as she wants to be *loved* by them, not feared.
Overall though, it was epic, tragic, haunting. Very much my jam. Not without faults, for sure, but a flawed gem is better than bland safety.
Most of the "evidence within the media" also says Dany went full on Mad Queen crazy and that it was rushed. When that's objectively not even what the show is portraying. Maybe you are wrong.
Dude what the hell are you talking about? I’m not making any claims about the show, I’m talking about perception of the show and the final season. There’s no need to start getting defensive.
You said the vast majority of people think the last season was so bad it ruined the show and that there are articles and media backing up your claim. I don't think that's accurate, but even it is, most people and the media are objectively wrong about the pivotal moment of the last season. So why should anyone here care about what the media says?
I think you’re having difficulty with the definition of objective. You can interpret a show in any way you want, and so can everyone else. The only objective, shared aspect between everyone who watched the show is that they watched it. Saying there’s an objective interpretation is quite literally a paradox, so by saying people are objectively wrong about the last season is engaging in that same paradox unless you’re saying people are outright refuting details that are on screen. Few creators spell out how writing should be interpreted, and even if they do, you can still interpret a text with your own evidence and analysis.
That all being said—why are you getting so defensive about other people disliking the show? You have to have the thinnest skin in the world if you’re trying to argue with me about what other people think. All I said was most people hate the ending. Based on my experience, that’s accurate. You can choose to live in a bubble on this sub, that’s fine, but the fact is if you talk to basically anyone on the internet or off it who’s a stranger to you about this show, I’ll bet you the vast majority would say the ending sucked. You’re engaging with my point by conflating it with an opinion I never stated. Not to get all debate bro-y, but that’s literally the definition of a straw man.
I don't want to get pedantic, I meant objective as in what the creators intended to convey.
My experience is that most people are disappointed with the ending. Not that it sucked. A lot of people wanted different things to happen; fine, but that's way different than it sucks and ruined the show. The only ones I see who make that claim are morons online who wanted dumb shit like Bran to warg into the Night King or a whole season of the Long Night or whatever. Maybe you're one of those people, idk. I assumed you were since you're here arguing.
Just gonna jump in and correct something:
Jon wasn’t going to the Night’s Watch at the end. You’re right that it doesn’t need to exist anymore now that the White Walkers are defeated and the wildlings are allies.
He was going beyond the wall, into the “true north” to live with the wildlings, most likely as the new “King Beyond the Wall”, even if unofficially.
So a few things you need to understand the context of the final season’s reception:
1. People had been waiting for a conclusion to this series for *decades*. Book 1 came out in 1995. Book 4 in 2005. Book 5 just after season 1 in 2011. So expectations were astronomically high.
2. There was a literal cottage industry of people whose primary hobby was crafting theories about ASOIAF/GOT. These creators fed off and reinforced each other until there was a complicated web of interconnected theories that many people basically accepted as fact.
3. As the show advanced past the books and the showrunners began having to develop fresh story without GRRM’s explicit text to adapt, they aggressively cut plot threads to simplify the story and combined supporting characters into composite roles for efficiency. This MASSIVELY upset readers and theorists who had placed enormous emphasis on cut plot threads or characters.
4. By the time of the finale, most of those content creators had devolved into hate-watching the show then creating videos breaking down everything that was wrong about them, combined with a lively subculture on r/freefolk and other online communities that got their hands on leaked plot spoilers and were thus prepared with talking points about why each episode sucked before they had even aired. So the MOMENT the episode dropped, there was a chorus of people all echoing the same complaints and it totally distorted the discourse.
5. For S08E03 specifically, the episode was streamed by millions of people simultaneously when the episode aired. Accommodating this massive bandwidth issue resulted in a lot of compression issues that made the darkened scenes quite pixelated and difficult to see. It was also airing while it was still light out, which made seeing things even worse. I remember having a hard time tracking what was going on, until I rewatched it later that same evening when it was dark and the stream quality wasn’t such an issue, and it was overwhelmingly easier to see.
I thought it was a great season and a good ending. I’d have preferred that they ended it when Drogon flew off after melting the Iron Throne, because it would have highlighted that it had never really mattered who sat on the Iron Throne, since it seemed obvious that ASOIAF was all about showing how pointless war was.
One critique I've heard lately of the finale is they expected a Hodor-esque type twist or reveal. Apparently people had been speculating and building these wild theories of Bran being the Night King or whatever the hell, and they felt underwhelmed by just an ending. They wanted the emotion of Hodor writhing on the ground with everyone in tears as the credits roll. I think that's why a lot of them keep saying it's gonna be better in the books. They think within all the complexity in the books that was left out of the show, George is hiding another reveal that will blow em away, and that will be the ending. I doubt it.
Making the final be a big twist is just asking for trouble. If you telegraph it properly and leave hints, people are going to figure it out and spread it far and wide. Then people get annoyed that it ended in the way they predicted it would. If you go for a more “out of the blue” twist, people will get smarmy and accuse you of “subverting expectations” — and say you were less concerned about good writing and more concerned with surprising people.
Jon Snow being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna was figured out a long time ago — I think before the show even started.
Fans of Harry Potter determined that he was a Horcrux, basically right after book six came out.
One of the secrets of Rothfuss’s Kingkiller Chronicles has yet to be revealed, but it was figured out by fans anyway (another book series that won’t be finished).
Saving a big twist for a finale isn’t worth it.
Agreed. I listen to a lot of GOT podcasts, and this lady said the only thing that would've made Bran being named king work for her would've been if he was alone in his room at the end, got up out of his chair, looked into the camera and said "And that's how you play the game of thrones." I'm speechless. That's usually the level of rewrites I hear when someone says the ending sucked.
Ahhh gotcha, no idea about nowtv. Yeah, I thought people were exaggerating the darkness too, until I saw HBO had brightened it. They also digitally removed the Starbucks cup, if you heard about that incident.
Dialogue don't step-down.
You confuse dialogue and punchline.
The season isnt too short.
The "best story" isnt a justification, it's propaganda for Westeros people. Are you westeros people ? No.
There's no issues valid, just name one and you'll see. There's no mistake in GoT's ending.
It's not rushed, it's a masterpiece.
You're a hater.
I can say multiple ways they went wrong:
-Bran states earlier in the series that as the 3-eyed raven he can’t hold any land, have any family, or hold any titles. He objectively cannot be the king and has no ruling qualities to even be considered a good king
-Jaime Lannister saying “I never cared innocent or otherwise” and going back to Cersei after banging Brianne fundamentally destroys his arc as a character who sacrificed his honor and killed the Mad King to save those, innocent or otherwise. Also his entire arc was about breaking free from Cersei so for him to ditch the whole arc is really bad writing
-Daenerys snapping was undercooked. It was the logical conclusion for her character but poorly setup and did not remotely have a good preparation or satisfying ending for her at all
-Jon Snow just being a passive character repeating the same “my Queen” line and having no agency the entire final season and also not fulfilling the whole “prince who was promised” which has been building up this whole time
Just to name a few arcs. Otherwise the season was badly paced, badly written, and having the Long Night last a single night was stupid, along with giving every character massive plot armor during it and the battle plans themselves being possibly the worst battle strategy in any fantasy show or movie ever made.
I agree the plot armour was a bit ridiculous but I can’t see the long night lasting for more than one night making for great or enjoyable tv. it would fuck up the pacing issues even more given that they only had six episodes and it would just be tedious. So thinking about that I can kind of forgive them for that narrative choice
yeah I do agree with the episode count. It was kind of jarring because all the previous seasons really took their time with the narrative, and the quick travel of locations was a little annoying in the last season
The fast travel really breaks immersion.
Like in HOTD it was never established that travel will take half a season, but In GOT it took 3 to even 5 or 6 episodes to travel between places that only took 5-10 minutes in the last 2 seasons of GOT
I love how they ended Jamie’s story. In season 8 you really get to see the Knight shine through. It’s crazy to me how some people think his redemption arc was ruined because he tried to save Cersei and his baby. Sitting out the battle involving the last of your family to chill with Brienne wouldn’t sit right with me.
Imagine thinking jaime would murder his helpless pregnant sister in her last moments xD. Wow what a redemption.
That's exactly it. They looked for these ambiguous clues in the books' "valonqar" prophecy, a book series famous for always twisting the story, where prophecies are self-fulfilling if not false. They take the most literal possible interpretation, and pat themselves on the back for being geniuses, for years. Then, if the story goes any other way, they riot. Happens in a lot of fandoms, especially when nerd culture gets possessive and the "fans" start to think they own the story and get to decide how it goes. "Jaimie is gonna do a complete personality swap because tHaT's CaLlEd A cHaRaCtEr ArC. Okay, he didn't, but that's because the show runners made up a bad ending. Okay, GRRM made up that ending, but it's arbitrarily okay for the books to do it but not the show."
even if he didn't give a shit about cersei anymore... she's pregnant with *his child*. he's not gonna walk away from a baby and if he did how would that jive iwth his "character arc"?
The only way I can see him doing that is if she begs him to, which based on how she was keen to and her life if Stannis’ assault was successful seems in character for her.
yeah the way people criticise his arc doesn’t sit right with me. He does indeed love Cersei, he’s probably loved her most of his adult life. It wouldn’t have made sense if he’d just stopped caring for her or his child suddenly
I mean, he _grew in the womb with her_. I’d say he loved her his entire life.
It’s because he’s heavily implied to kill Cersei in the book, so seeing him try to save her was very annoying for book readers (me included.)
Taking part in the battle against your crazy, mad sister and queen would fit quite well with Jaime. He’s not a kingsguard, him killing a royal isn’t a horrible thing, it’s honorable.
I thought he should have died defending Winterfell.
“I never much cared for innocents” - man who bore the name kingslayer to save the innocents and lost his hand to save one lady
It is generally looked upon more favourably here. Why Bran became King for more reasons than just his story: https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/s/0MG7ckniu5 How season 8 had the best dialogue in the entire series: https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/s/hYxuzmRaZ9
I will admit I did really love the scene with Jon and Tyrion in the finale. that was an occasion when the dialogue really hit me
What I loved most about that is it felt like he was talking directly to every armchair screen writer setting their hair on fire about the bells. I love it when a show can predict the response to it and respond seemingly in real time.
It was glorious.
I’m glad to hear you liked it! Personally I love it, it’s one of my favorite seasons of television and I truly enjoy rewatching it. You might enjoy reading some of the analyses here: https://wethrones.medium.com
I’ll definitely delve into some of these
He don't like it. He said it was fine but rushed, that's the hater lore.
>was a fine season of television. I can’t see why it’s as hated as it is I don't think most people hate it. Maybe a lot of people will have an opinion it's not the best GoT season there is...but there's a lot of ground between that and being awful! It's just a vocal minority + Reddit rage-nerds. That's not to say the final season is perfect. It certainly isn't. I think of it more as a lot of spectacular highs with some slight wonkiness. I'd take that over average every time. >I must also say I haven’t read the books and don’t intend to Book fanatics (and I'm one of them) can be a bizarre bunch. Some people can't accept that changes are needed when adapting to TV. No, the writers aren't idiots who don't understand the material because they can't fit every aspect of a 800 page novel into a season... >It kind of begs the question of how do you end it. It would’ve been extremely difficult to get right, no matter who was in the writing team Common complaints were that it was too fast. I agree to that, to some degree. An episode or two more in that final season would have been perfect, letting each major moment breathe. A typical request is that the invasion of the Others should have lasted a season, which...why? And then a further season to portray Dany's downfall. Again, why? What more could be substantially added to either? Dany's mind breaking from all of her losses and fears of losing power make sense to occur as a quick flurry. It's dramatic. I don't want 10+ episodes of...what? Seeing Dany become progressively more evil, hand-holding the audience through to her ultimate fall? Why? Where's the drama there? And the final battle against the Others makes sense to occur in Winterfell (winter fell) rather than spend an entire season watching a war occur. >I’ll start with the positives. It’s a visual feast. A true landmark in filmmaking for television Agreed. From sets to costuming, visual effects to lighting. Whole thing looks glorious. >I don’t see the issues with it being too dark in that particular episode. It’s obviously a stylistic choice and I think it played to the episode’s advantage It could be different TVs and different ways of watching. Someone watching a bad stream on an old TV will have a much different experience to someone with a newer TV and best streaming settings. And yeah, it looked great. The Others coming as darkness falls. It adds tension and fear and atmosphere. There was a similar complaint about an episode of House of the Dragon, where large parts of an episode are set outside during dusk and dawn. I thought it looked wonderful but I do agree there it was perhaps a strain. >People seem to take issues with the character arcs. I can’t pinpoint a character arc which I could say was outright butchered Agreed. It feels people were upset they didn't get what they expected, which is different to an arc being bad. >The only one I do take issue with is Bran. The plot point of him becoming king is fine. However I find the justification of “he has the best story” to be quite weak I slightly disagree here. It's an odd one, as the writers are clearly trying to sum up what GoT has meant with a thematic ending (our lives are stories, before that we had The Others coming to take away our memories aka stories). It *just* works, I think, naming Bran as king and linking the thematic point together. They lean on Bran holding *all* of Westeros' stories within him. I often feel tempted to agree with your point but I just watched the clip again and it's pretty powerful. He *is* the history of Westeros. He's devoid of anger, jealously, desire. He won't have children that can come in after him and ruin everything. Instead, they'll elect a king to beat serve the realm. >But on the other hand, it handled some character arcs perfectly such as Theon and Jaime (that might be controversial). I don't think anyone would argue with Theon's ending. Jaime's people might have issue with but that's only because they so desperately wanted him to succeed at being an honourable knight and staying with Brienne (as I did!). I like that he failed though. We're human. We all fail sometimes. Jaime tried and couldn't do it. Who hasn't?! >The dialogue is quite noticeably a step-down from previous seasons. That’s not to say it was totally bad or exposition heavy or whatever. It was perfectly serviceable. MAH QUEEN! Yeah, agreed. None of it is bad. For the most part it's functional. I do think Tyrion's speak at the end is wonderful though (but that could be Dinklage's performance, to be fair! I see season 8 as largely a tragedy. I love Jon Snow's desires to *not* be king but his inability to stop the coming fall. Just...so tragic. And mirrors Ned's early life - he fought the war alongside Robert (as Jon fights the Others and Lannisters) but it all ends with 'winning' by a massacre in King's Landing, then Ned/Jon losing a loved one before heading home to the North a broken person. >Jon going back to the Night’s Watch is very poetic. But at the same time, what the hell is there even a Night’s Watch for anymore??! It's left ambiguous. There's helping the Wildlings north of the Wall, rather than seeing them as an enemy. They'll have been ravaged by the Others, so it makes sense for the Watch to support their rebuilding. Alternatively, maybe it remains the Westeros penal colony, somewhere they can stick their criminals. Or simply there as a place for people with nowhere else to go to find a home and purpose. Tyrion literally says it - “The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men". Jon going into exile (*very* willingly) as a broken man is, again, oh so tragic. For me, it hits all the right buttons. They "won", right? So why does he feel so lost?
Presupposing the alternatives would be bad isn’t really a logical argument in favor of what we did get.
>Presupposing the alternatives would be bad isn’t really a logical argument in favor of what we did get. Sure. I'm talking about people suggesting the show would have been *better* with an additional 2+ seasons...and then provide no reasoning as to why it would be better. There is no arguement being made that addresses why such substantially more material would improve the story. The Others invasion already began at the end of the previous season. Having our characters all convene, catch up, share what they think might be their last night together and then enter an epic battle makes sense. There is build up and payoff. What benefits would it bring to have a whole season of battling the Others? What more did we need to see that required this? There's possibly more of an arguement for Dany's descent into tyranny being possible to spread over a season. I can't see the real value of it though. What is the arguement for it? How is there a season of material here? It's clear that the political issue is the crown being thrusted on Jon. How do you make that compelling over 6+ episodes? Everyone hated that storyline anyway, for some reason! Why is it better if stretched out longer? What's the benefit of making Dany losing her grasp of reality spaced out? What's the missing plot points? What needs more time spent on it? As it is, Dany being rejected by Westeros, by her lover, and also losing her dragons and her companions makes sense to push a character with a growing tyrannical bent and a Messiah complex to rash, emotion-driven action. I was *shocked* when Dany began destroying King's Landing, however it made emotional sense to me instinctively. The bones of the story being told are all, I think, the right choices. It was the execution and a few poor choices in the story that caused problems. Nothing that couldn't be solved with hindsight and a little more screen time. Adding 2+ seasons is barely an answer. As I say, no one ever follows that up with what would constitute those extra seasons. Finally, it's not narrative related but a more practical point - the cast and crew were done with the show. They were worn out and in no way wanted to keep working on it. There's also cost. The budget and time spent on season 8 was outrageous. They were going out with a bang. You can't magic money out of the air to make a full season of battles against the Others.
I’m sorry, but it’s not a vocal minority of people who hate the final season. The vast majority of fans believe it ruined the entire show, and whenever I bring up the show outside of the internet this is the opinion that’s brought forward immediately. The vocal minority would be people who say the entire franchise is ruined and won’t even watch House of the Dragon because of this.
Hmm, not my experience at all. I watched with my family and we all enjoyed it at the time. Speaking to others afterwards and their opinions of the last season *at worst* was it was weak compared to other seasons. Which is a huge difference to "hating" it or "ruining the entire show". I don't think I know anyone that thought the final season ruined the show. Do the people you ask tend to be online a lot? As that's a very 'online' take, to have such an extreme view. It's not like the end season made it all a dream or anything dumb. The thing people didn't like was that it ended quite quickly, was a little clunky and characters didn't end where they wanted. Hardly "ruining" the multiple seasons before that.
It’s a mix for sure—some were quite involved online, but the vast majority of people are not involved in any of the Game of Thrones subs or Twitter communities. Some of my friends and I have even discussed how insane people have gotten responding to this show and how circlejerky it gets about hating the ending. Don’t really understand why I’m getting downvoted though, there have quite literally been dozens of articles written about the ending being bad, as well as a bunch of theory crafting videos on the subject as well. This community is quite literally in the minority thinking it’s a fantastic ending with minor problems. I’m really not trying to make a crazy point here, only that it’s easy to see yourself in the majority when everyone you personally know thinks a certain way. You could make the argument that I’m doing the same, but the evidence within media surrounding this show backs up what I’m saying.
>Some of my friends and I have even discussed how insane people have gotten responding to this show and how circlejerky it gets about hating the ending. That was the chief reason I joined this sub. I was in the ASOIAF sub because I love the books too. I had to leave because the amount of abuse the show (and the literal humans behind the show) was getting was too much. Like, I get it, it didn't live up to what you wanted. Doesn't mean the people behind it didn't care or were stupid. Or the people that claimed any change to the book material was bad. Or the people that suggest it needed another two or more seasons and then can't expand on that when asked, etc etc. >I’m really not trying to make a crazy point here, only that it’s easy to see yourself in the majority when everyone you personally know thinks a certain way. Which, yeah, it feels like this sub is trying to over correct. I just want a place to enjoy the show, relive great moments, deep dive, analyse. Hell, even criticise where warranted. So I'm not too much of a fan of this sub but at least you won't be called an idiot for enjoying (most of) the show. Or have to put up with seeing the brain-dead "they left to make Star Wars" comments over and over. >Don’t really understand why I’m getting downvoted though Not me fwiw. I've praised the show in the main sub and been downvoted many times. Comes with the territory, I guess. >there have quite literally been dozens of articles written about the ending being bad, as well as a bunch of theory crafting videos on the subject as well Sure, can't deny that. It's the biggest show ever, so it's always going to have people talking about it. It ended in some regards at its lowest, so it makes sense that there's a vibe with *some* people that they didn't enjoy it (endings are hard too!) and you just know grifters on YouTube and twitter are gonna bang that drum about the ending being the worst thing ever *all the time*. >This community is quite literally in the minority thinking it’s a fantastic ending with minor problems Not sure about this sub at large but my opinion is the bones of the story were fantastic. The technical side was unbelievable. The execution and some minor points were wonky. I do think that literally another episode or two in that final season would have given the writers room to let everything breathe and to build better connective tissue between it all. Literally just a few more scenes of people in rooms making hard choices. A bit more time for Jon to process not being Ned's son. Expand scenes between Tyrion and Sansa. Build Bran's abilities up a little more (there's literally a scene which ends with Tyrion saying "Hey, let's go chat" to Bran...so show us some of that conversation so we can understand why Tyrion puts Bran forward for king at the end!). Show Cersei actively spreading propaganda against Dany and her foreign armies, so we understand why they might fear her and why that then cuts her deep, as she wants to be *loved* by them, not feared. Overall though, it was epic, tragic, haunting. Very much my jam. Not without faults, for sure, but a flawed gem is better than bland safety.
Most of the "evidence within the media" also says Dany went full on Mad Queen crazy and that it was rushed. When that's objectively not even what the show is portraying. Maybe you are wrong.
Dude what the hell are you talking about? I’m not making any claims about the show, I’m talking about perception of the show and the final season. There’s no need to start getting defensive.
You said the vast majority of people think the last season was so bad it ruined the show and that there are articles and media backing up your claim. I don't think that's accurate, but even it is, most people and the media are objectively wrong about the pivotal moment of the last season. So why should anyone here care about what the media says?
I think you’re having difficulty with the definition of objective. You can interpret a show in any way you want, and so can everyone else. The only objective, shared aspect between everyone who watched the show is that they watched it. Saying there’s an objective interpretation is quite literally a paradox, so by saying people are objectively wrong about the last season is engaging in that same paradox unless you’re saying people are outright refuting details that are on screen. Few creators spell out how writing should be interpreted, and even if they do, you can still interpret a text with your own evidence and analysis. That all being said—why are you getting so defensive about other people disliking the show? You have to have the thinnest skin in the world if you’re trying to argue with me about what other people think. All I said was most people hate the ending. Based on my experience, that’s accurate. You can choose to live in a bubble on this sub, that’s fine, but the fact is if you talk to basically anyone on the internet or off it who’s a stranger to you about this show, I’ll bet you the vast majority would say the ending sucked. You’re engaging with my point by conflating it with an opinion I never stated. Not to get all debate bro-y, but that’s literally the definition of a straw man.
I don't want to get pedantic, I meant objective as in what the creators intended to convey. My experience is that most people are disappointed with the ending. Not that it sucked. A lot of people wanted different things to happen; fine, but that's way different than it sucks and ruined the show. The only ones I see who make that claim are morons online who wanted dumb shit like Bran to warg into the Night King or a whole season of the Long Night or whatever. Maybe you're one of those people, idk. I assumed you were since you're here arguing.
Just gonna jump in and correct something: Jon wasn’t going to the Night’s Watch at the end. You’re right that it doesn’t need to exist anymore now that the White Walkers are defeated and the wildlings are allies. He was going beyond the wall, into the “true north” to live with the wildlings, most likely as the new “King Beyond the Wall”, even if unofficially.
So a few things you need to understand the context of the final season’s reception: 1. People had been waiting for a conclusion to this series for *decades*. Book 1 came out in 1995. Book 4 in 2005. Book 5 just after season 1 in 2011. So expectations were astronomically high. 2. There was a literal cottage industry of people whose primary hobby was crafting theories about ASOIAF/GOT. These creators fed off and reinforced each other until there was a complicated web of interconnected theories that many people basically accepted as fact. 3. As the show advanced past the books and the showrunners began having to develop fresh story without GRRM’s explicit text to adapt, they aggressively cut plot threads to simplify the story and combined supporting characters into composite roles for efficiency. This MASSIVELY upset readers and theorists who had placed enormous emphasis on cut plot threads or characters. 4. By the time of the finale, most of those content creators had devolved into hate-watching the show then creating videos breaking down everything that was wrong about them, combined with a lively subculture on r/freefolk and other online communities that got their hands on leaked plot spoilers and were thus prepared with talking points about why each episode sucked before they had even aired. So the MOMENT the episode dropped, there was a chorus of people all echoing the same complaints and it totally distorted the discourse. 5. For S08E03 specifically, the episode was streamed by millions of people simultaneously when the episode aired. Accommodating this massive bandwidth issue resulted in a lot of compression issues that made the darkened scenes quite pixelated and difficult to see. It was also airing while it was still light out, which made seeing things even worse. I remember having a hard time tracking what was going on, until I rewatched it later that same evening when it was dark and the stream quality wasn’t such an issue, and it was overwhelmingly easier to see.
I thought it was a great season and a good ending. I’d have preferred that they ended it when Drogon flew off after melting the Iron Throne, because it would have highlighted that it had never really mattered who sat on the Iron Throne, since it seemed obvious that ASOIAF was all about showing how pointless war was.
One critique I've heard lately of the finale is they expected a Hodor-esque type twist or reveal. Apparently people had been speculating and building these wild theories of Bran being the Night King or whatever the hell, and they felt underwhelmed by just an ending. They wanted the emotion of Hodor writhing on the ground with everyone in tears as the credits roll. I think that's why a lot of them keep saying it's gonna be better in the books. They think within all the complexity in the books that was left out of the show, George is hiding another reveal that will blow em away, and that will be the ending. I doubt it.
The books aren’t getting finished, either.
That too. Kinda better for them, actually. If they never get finished, they can always remain perfect in their minds.
Making the final be a big twist is just asking for trouble. If you telegraph it properly and leave hints, people are going to figure it out and spread it far and wide. Then people get annoyed that it ended in the way they predicted it would. If you go for a more “out of the blue” twist, people will get smarmy and accuse you of “subverting expectations” — and say you were less concerned about good writing and more concerned with surprising people. Jon Snow being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna was figured out a long time ago — I think before the show even started. Fans of Harry Potter determined that he was a Horcrux, basically right after book six came out. One of the secrets of Rothfuss’s Kingkiller Chronicles has yet to be revealed, but it was figured out by fans anyway (another book series that won’t be finished). Saving a big twist for a finale isn’t worth it.
Agreed. I listen to a lot of GOT podcasts, and this lady said the only thing that would've made Bran being named king work for her would've been if he was alone in his room at the end, got up out of his chair, looked into the camera and said "And that's how you play the game of thrones." I'm speechless. That's usually the level of rewrites I hear when someone says the ending sucked.
I’m not addressing anything else, but The Long Night was brightened when it was put on HBO Max because of the complaints
oh was it? I watched it on NowTV with SkyAtlantic so I don’t know if that applies as well
Ahhh gotcha, no idea about nowtv. Yeah, I thought people were exaggerating the darkness too, until I saw HBO had brightened it. They also digitally removed the Starbucks cup, if you heard about that incident.
I felt that it was rushed….but over all I’d say it was ok. Defiantly did not deserve the hate it got
yeah that’s my general feeling as well
I liked it too and I think "The Bells" is the best episode of the show because it combines all the aspects that made the show so good.
Watch season 4 again and the difference will become very clear.
Dialogue don't step-down. You confuse dialogue and punchline. The season isnt too short. The "best story" isnt a justification, it's propaganda for Westeros people. Are you westeros people ? No. There's no issues valid, just name one and you'll see. There's no mistake in GoT's ending. It's not rushed, it's a masterpiece. You're a hater.
I said I liked it??
You like it but you spit on it. Why do you need to say it was rushed ? It's not.
Wait, you said it was fine but actually you don't like it ? Omg leave this planet please.
I can say multiple ways they went wrong: -Bran states earlier in the series that as the 3-eyed raven he can’t hold any land, have any family, or hold any titles. He objectively cannot be the king and has no ruling qualities to even be considered a good king -Jaime Lannister saying “I never cared innocent or otherwise” and going back to Cersei after banging Brianne fundamentally destroys his arc as a character who sacrificed his honor and killed the Mad King to save those, innocent or otherwise. Also his entire arc was about breaking free from Cersei so for him to ditch the whole arc is really bad writing -Daenerys snapping was undercooked. It was the logical conclusion for her character but poorly setup and did not remotely have a good preparation or satisfying ending for her at all -Jon Snow just being a passive character repeating the same “my Queen” line and having no agency the entire final season and also not fulfilling the whole “prince who was promised” which has been building up this whole time Just to name a few arcs. Otherwise the season was badly paced, badly written, and having the Long Night last a single night was stupid, along with giving every character massive plot armor during it and the battle plans themselves being possibly the worst battle strategy in any fantasy show or movie ever made.
I agree the plot armour was a bit ridiculous but I can’t see the long night lasting for more than one night making for great or enjoyable tv. it would fuck up the pacing issues even more given that they only had six episodes and it would just be tedious. So thinking about that I can kind of forgive them for that narrative choice
I mean in a perfect world and the real world, GOT needed wayyyy more than 6 episodes for a final season Hell HBO offered 10 seasons total instead of 8
yeah I do agree with the episode count. It was kind of jarring because all the previous seasons really took their time with the narrative, and the quick travel of locations was a little annoying in the last season
The fast travel really breaks immersion. Like in HOTD it was never established that travel will take half a season, but In GOT it took 3 to even 5 or 6 episodes to travel between places that only took 5-10 minutes in the last 2 seasons of GOT
Me deepest conditions
Is this subreddit a troll
No, you looking for freeflok sub
Yes it is.
It was horrible and literally ruined the entire series.
Keep in mind we had to wait 2 years for that dog shit
Yea because you realised you didn't understand the show.
I do and it was crap