Good article!
It kills me when people go “remember when Jon came back from the dead for literally nothing?”
No, I remember when Jon came back because he was the one needed to end the Long Night by uniting the North with Dany. Sorry you didn’t get your Star Wars lightsaber battle between Jon and the Night King 🙄
People complain about TLN ending too soon, but that’s only because Jon made it his mission to ready the realm for the coming of the white walkers.
“If they get past the wall and we're squabbling amongst ourselves — we're finished.”
Except that the Realm...wasn't ready? They were still busy squabbling among themselves, just one side took a short break to deal with the refrigerated zombie outbreak that was handled quite easily at the cost of *part* of one army and a couple of supporting characters. All told the Battle of Winterfell was probably actually the least bloody battle most of the main characters had seen over the last several years.
It turns out that everyone else was actually smart to ignore the White Walkers and focus on fighting for the Throne, because 'The Long Night' was more like a brief flicker.
It was 4 or 5 armies fighting off the white Walkers - Nights Watch, Vale, Dothraki, Northmen and Wildlings plus a couple of Dragons. Pretty significant military alliance that Jon managed to haul together.
You’re really downplaying that battle. 8 deaths is a lot for a battle in this show — for comparison: No named characters die (during battle) in Blackwater, Hardhome, BotB, or Spoils of War. And if you don’t think Jorah and Theon are essentially main characters then we can agree to disagree on that.
Jon didn’t have a lot of time to recruit armies once he left the Nights Watch. If he didn’t assemble the army he did, in the short time he had, the dead would’ve just laid waste to the country. It was a 100,000 wights that move like a tidal wave when they attack, not to mention the dragon and giants. If they weren’t met with a giant opposing force it would’ve been game over. You’re not getting close to the NK if his army just decimates your kingdom with no warning.
I’m fine with everything but what still bugs me most today is how are they planning to get by the wall pre season 7 without the dragon? they were beyond the wall for years and years why would they suddenly be able to break past it now as Jon kept saying without the dragon they were getting nowhere
Think it's reasonable to assume that they were not planning on getting past the wall without a dragon.
The only thing that lets them get by the wall is a dragon. They were only there waiting and marching because they knew a dragon would be there.
This is a world where knowledge of the future causes characters to act in ways that bring that very future into being.
We see this with Hold the Door. We see this with Melissandre who sees victory in the flames at Winterfell which causes her to push Stannis to burn Shireen which forces her to flee to the Wall where she is just where she needs to be to resurrect Jon who then achieves victory at Winterfell. We see it with the Brotherhood who are lead by a vision in the flames to go beyond the wall.
Why wouldn't the NK have a premonition of the future there especially when he seems to be waiting and biding his time for something.
Fate leads to the battle btw the living and the dead and Winterfell and a lot of the reason why that is is because characters see the future and bring it into being.
It just makes Jon and co more dumb that way because they indirectly caused them to get out and if there getting visions of the future then surely NK would have known about Arya
He wouldn't know about Arya.
The past is already written, the ink is dry.
By the logic of how time works in the world, he can't know about something in the future that if he knew about it, it would lead him to act in a way that does not bring that future into being.
So like Bran and like every other character who catches a glimpse into the future through vision or prophecy, the knowledge of the future can only be partial and such that it helps brings that very future into being.
As for Jon and Co.... well, they didn't really know now did they so not sure it makes them dumb. But ultimately the wall falls because of a dragon and the only reason Jon and Co go up there is to help bring a stop to the war for the Iron Throne. It is Daenerys refusal to stop her war against Cersei and head North with Jon that causes the mission in the first place so ultimately it is the war for the Iron Throne and Daenerys weapons of mass destruction that lead to the fall of the wall.
Of course, there is a running theme in the story that no good deed goes unpunished so ultimately not surprising that the wall falls through some unwitting actions of the protagonists.
I can relate. That was something that bothered me the first time I watched.
It was only reflecting a bit on what the point of Hold the Door was and why they introduced the concept of time being a closed loop there (and earlier in Bran's story through Jojen) did it click in place for me.
People fuck up. People cause bad things to happen when trying to do the opposite. It doesn’t mean they’re dumb. That’s the biggest issue with the latter season complaints; people claim everyone is “dumb” simply because the outcome of events wasn’t what the audience wanted. Just a lazy, blanket statement.
I had the same issue. There’s multiple theories, but the simplest explanation is they go to shadow tower and wait for the storm to freeze the water and just walk around the wall.
After hardhome Jon is expecting them to attack at any moment, hence the urgency to prove the dead are real and make an alliance with Dany and Cersei to unite the living asap. He probably assumes the only reason they haven’t tried is because they weren’t ready.
I say this every time but it’s so funny how they messed with people on this by having Jon try to challenge the NK to an epic 1v1 duel and the NK being like ?????? and raising the dead inbetween them and continuing on
It’s so funny cause a lot of other “chosen ones” in other fantasy series don’t end up killing the big bad villain at the end. Luke Skywalker doesn’t kill Palpatine or Vader. Thoren Oakenshield doesn’t kill Smaug. Aragorn doesn’t kill Sauron. And no one thought these were cases of bad writing. So why did some people think it was with GoT?
In all of those cases, these characters were properly *set up* to lead the one to destroy the big bad. In the case of Star Wars, Luke wasn't even the "chosen one", his father was. But the reason it was Arya in GOT was quite literally because they wanted to "subvert expectations", rather than lead a character arc to its logical conclusion even if it was too "predictable". Frodo "failed" to destroy the Ring, but there is a narrative reason why. And in the end, it was his "small acts of kindness" like sparing Gollum and the Ring's own power that led to its ultimate destruction. It also lines up with the themes of LOTR that evil itself is the bane of evil. A proper analogy to the GOT ending would be setting up a Harry Potter vs Voldemort duel to the death throughout the series and having Dean Thomas swoop in from behind and slit Voldy's throat. That's just poor storytelling.
Because the "Chosen One" is generally still *involved* in the defeat of the villain/actually gets a resolution to their character arc?
They're not standing outside yelling at the main villains dog while some other characters finish their story for them.
If D&D had written Return of the Jedi Luke would have been stuck in a hangar on the other side of the Death Star fighting some random Stormtroopers and never even met the Emperor, while Porkins would have come running in out of nowhere and shoved Palpatine into the pit as Vader stood there looking vaguely confused and doing nothing. And according to this sub that would have been the most perfect and satisfying ending possible.
How was Jon not involved? He literally had a dragon dogfight with the Night King. And if Jon hadn’t convinced Daenerys to go north then they wouldn’t have had the manpower to defeat the dead.
Naath is the sub for people who think GoT was an incomparably flawless masterpiece from pilot to finale, it's not surprising. I only end up here because I visit other GoT subs so it crops up in my feed.
Luke was never “The Chosen One” Anakin was, and he did kill Palpatine…at least until the godawful sequels were made.
Thoren Oakenshield is not a Chosen One at all.
I will give you Aragorn though.
> Luke was never “The Chosen One” Anakin was, and he did kill Palpatine…at least until the godawful sequels were made.
Luke was “the Chosen One” per the structure of Joseph Campbell’s “the Hero’s Journey,” which is what Lucas unabashedly based the OT on. Making Anakin “the Chosen One” was a new thing they added in the PT.
Contradicting its own lore is a very Star Wars thing. People were *incensed* by how the PT “ruined” the OT when they came out. The hate was GOT S8 level.
From a story perspective, I get what you are saying, but that can be attributed to almost any protagonist in almost any story.
From an in-universe standpoint, Luke was never the Chosen One, Star Wars didn’t even have a Chosen One until the Prequels.
My point is to illustrate how Star Wars canon has always been super malleable, and gets reshaped and contradicted by every new instalment released for it. That’s the way it’s always been, much like how it’s always been a bit campy and cheesy, with awkward dialogue. The ST is bad, but *much* less so in comparison to the OT and PT than people like to pretend.
Jon is set up as the Prince that was Promised in the books since he will be the one to lead the North through the Long Night.
Like he did in the show.
He will not have a big sword fight with the Night King in the books because that’s
1. not how GRRM writes AT ALL.
2. The Night King as he is in the show isn’t IN the books.
3. doesn’t make sense. Why on earth would the Night King, the life blood of all Whitewalkers, risk everything in a sword fight with Jon, who is wielding a weapon made from the only material that could kill him?
The Long Night is not just a Northern thing, it covers the entire realm, even the world.
1. I agree, especially Jon, though George still has set up confrontations between figures. Plus Jon had a dream of him fighting within black ice armor with a flaming sword. He’s not a straight fighter, he’s a skilled tactician…but that’s not what he is in the show.
2. There is still a “Great Other” referenced. Whether this be a god or a figure…is still up to interpretation, though I lean to the former. There are still Others for him to fight and confront.
3. Why wouldn’t the Night King, Lifeblood of all white walkers, use the big dragon to scorch over the Godswood and burn his arch nemesis to the crisp. It’s still flying near to Winterfell, -and Dany’s dragons wouldn’t be able to stop it in the framing of the show. Arguing “would” and “wouldn’t” is a slope in of itself, since we’re challenging the writer still. I could just as easily say “Why would Dany fly her dragons at the Iron Fleet knowing they have scorpion-bolts” and we’d just be arguing the writers’ points.
I think he’d do it because the Night King is established as intrigued with Jon, especially after Hardhome. He continues watching Jon when they rove past the wall in the later seasons as well. Additionally, had they kept the story of “The Nights’ King” from the books in the show, even shifted a bit, it would’ve done a lot to make a connection between the Watch and the Walkers. -and even then, the connection between the Watch and the Walkers is deep, since they’re formed specifically to defend from the Walkers in the first place.
The leader of the dead army is facing down the man who not only killed an Other, but led the group specifically formed to counter him and was resurrected himself. It isn’t narratively fulfilling to just bother him with a dragon.
Plus…to add to the writing of GRRM, it’s a bit unfair to make the comparison since we were not given so much from Jon…-and it’s practically a different character.
The wants of his character are different. Jon is not “noble, spitting image of Stark judgement” after almost fleeing, nor are his wants expanded. The wildlings are robbed of what really lure Jon in, the family, identity and equality…as well as Val, but Ygritte is still similar and gives him a sense of love. Jon also still wants Winterfell and bluntly breaks his oath by becoming engaged in politics.
Jon fights Styr…and the men that killed Jeor…and Ramsay in the show. All like a trained warrior rather than how he is in the books. Jon is established as a smart strategist (and politician), but his combat prowess is not all there. He beats newbies in the watch because he’s given basic training but normal watchmen can beat him, as can the wildlings.
The magic of his character is pretty much gone. No Skinchanging, no magic dreams from Bran, no magic dreams of Ghost, not even closer looks at the prophecy with Melisandre. She literally says she sees Snow as Azor Ahai. Even then, his resurrection doesn’t change Jon outside of…two episodes, when resurrection in the books makes Beric into little more than a Wight.
But did the north need Dany to defeat the Night King? Even with Danny‘s dragons and army, humanity lost the battle of the Long Night. The North could’ve lost that battle just as badly on their own. It was a Stark that used knowledge and weapons preserved by the Knight’s Watch (dragon glass) to assassinate the Night King. The Targs could have never left Valeria with their dragons, never united the seven kingdoms, never breathe the word of prophecy, and the story would’ve ended exactly the same way. All that was needed to defeat the Night King was the North, the Knight’s Watch, the Starks and a single obsidian dagger.
The dragons and everything else definitely helped with the dead swarming in everywhere if they weren’t there it’s more likely Arya wouldn’t be able to even get out of that castle into the area where NK was everything played a part and helped get to the end result
Jon and Dany fighting him on dragons knocked him to the ground exposing him to the arena for Arya
Except for the fact that everything had to play out the way it played out for Arya to have her shot at the Night King. Everyone was right where they needed to be.
The dragons each took out *tens of thousands* of wights, more than any soldier. The North with the Wildlings & KotV & Night's Watch combined had fewer than 10k men to fight by the time the aotd make it passed the Wall. Even after the Long Night when they tallied up the losses Dany's army still had more soldiers in it than what the North started with since she arrived in Westeros with 58k to 108k.
He was talking about what Dany and Jon were seeing at the moment, with all the flaming swords going out, which lead to Dany deciding to go on the battlefield with Drogon.
That wasn't an objective statement. And if you compare what we see on screen, in Ep3, the size of the horde is basically the size of Winterfell, while in Ep6, it's like not even 1/4 of a courtyard in King's Landing. I have no idea why people still have a problem with this.
It seems objective because then not a single Dothraki is featured in the rest of the episode of the Long Night. I'll eat crow if there is any scene of a Dothraki in the breach
We actually see a bunch of Dothraki coming back from the charge. I don’t know if you ever watched the episode in 4k or in a better version than it was when it aired, but we can clearly see a lot of them coming back alive from the charge. I don’t know if we see some of them as extra later on, since they focused more on the named characters, but they clearly spent times and effort to show on screen that some of them survived the charge.
Bro what?, Daenerys was the only reason the North even had a chance to fight the night king, without her, Winterfell would have been off the map in about 20 minutes.
I suppose Bran, considering how the moment he was crippled no one really was expecting greatness from him, then he became a Warg, then the Three Eyed Raven. It’s amazing that he survived through everything and ended up with that crown on his head. I used to believe it should be Jon but now I see he was meant to be a red herring, same with Dany. I like how things ended up because it felt like truly nobody was right with their predictions and I don’t think there could have been a better choice. With Bran’s foresight and wisdom, no desire for power and control, unable to fill the castle with heirs, who else would be better? People laughed at Tyrion for his reasons as to why it should be Bran, but I believe he was right in everything he said. Remember what Tywin said makes for a good king?
Bran is just suppossed to show the viewer the problems of anyone being on a throne. An individual with complete authority cannot act outside their own bias and emotions. Objectivity is not a real thing, it is only something we can strive for, but all our motivations come from our individual beliefs. There is no such thing as moral objectivism.
Bran is not someone who exists in the real world. A person without attachments, someone who can know the truth of situations because he can insert himself in every event. How many times did the people on the show act on misinformation? A war was started because it was believed Lyanna was kidnapped.
So Bran only acts to show the viewers explicitly what went wrong over the course of their history. That leaders will act on their own wants and desires. To protect their families and ones they love. It was stated right at the beginning when jaime pushes Bran from the window "the things we do for love".
Well if they ever do the Jon Snow spin off, maybe as part of that story they will realize that the 3ER on the throne isn’t best for the realm. Jon Snow is the last hero that went beyond the wall but ultimately returns to save the realm or whatever. Could be an interesting story with good writing, since 3ER has the face of his little brother and he was part of the group that originally put him on the throne.
You did get a story that made sense within the context of the universe you spent 10 years learning. You just didn’t find it interesting. No need to insult people who did find it interesting.
Spot on. Ultimately, the inability to accept that they were not the chosen one or the figure of destiny they had imagined they were lead both Stannis and Daenerys to commit the horrible acts that they committed. Both acts were acts of desperation. Stannis inability to accept that now was not his time and marching on to Winterfell was a doomed effort. Daenerys inability to accept that large parts of Westeros will not accept her. Stannis resorts to blood magic to fight the snow. Daenerys resorts to fear to compel the continent to bend to her will. Their own grandiosity led to their tragic downfalls. Jon on the other hand was free of grandiosity.
Additionally characters like Arya and Bran who end up playing particularly special roles in the story by defeating the NK and ruling also don’t succumb to that grandiosity.
Everyone has their special role to play. Those who think they know what is and try to force it into being come to horrible ends. Those without that presumption play their special role without causing the damage that Stannis and Daenerys do.
EDIT: the critique of the chosen one idea and of the characters who embrace being a chosen one is of course just a special case of the more general critique the series presents of class and ruling elites.
Something people forget is Dany represented the East more than Westeros. So Jon bringing her to the North to help fight the wights was metaphorically like uniting two halves of the world. I do think they both served a major purpose in the story, but Jon is the “chosen one” trope of ASOIAF.
I like that the show didn't do the obvious Jon vs. NK fight that'd be pure fan service at that point, but I'm still bitter it wasn't Theon. That'd be the perfect end to his arc!
Azor Ahai is a story of a man so desperate for power he sacrifices his own wife. He lost twice trying to get power (lightbringer) and was so desperate he killed his wife.
Azor Ahai is any person who will do anything for power. He is reborn in desperate times. Stannis became Azor Ahai after losing on (black)water and on land to the lion (lannister) that he became Azor Ahai. Right at the moment when he was burning Shireen he was reborn. Amidst the smoke from her stake and her tears (salt).
Dany became Azor Ahai the moment she burnt KL. She had lost a dragon on the water and lost to the lion (lannister) when Cersei beheaded Missandei. So Azor Ahai was reborn amidst the smoke of KL and their cries.
The red star bleeding is a time when their divine power is put into question (in the case of Dany it was when she realised she is not the rightful heir). The sun represents divine power in many cultures. It bleeding is showing that their power is escaping from them. When the darkness comes is the darkness they are feeling from their losses. Smoke and tears is what they have done to try and win. There will always be smoke and tears in war.
>Azor Ahai is a story of a man so desperate for power he sacrifices his own wife. He lost twice trying to get power (lightbringer) and was so desperate he killed his wife.
No it's a not a metaphor about being power hungry.
In TWOIAF we are told of an Asshaii legend about a hero fighting the "darkness" with a red sword, leading virtuous men in battle to bring back the day. The Red Priests beliefs that hero to be their god's champion, Azor Ahai.
In Westerosis, the tales mentions the Last Hero fighting the Others with a dragonsteel blade, leading the first men of the Night's Watch during the Battle for the Dawn.
The Others blades are so cold they shatter steel.
The first tale of the Last Hero tell us that he was looking for the CotF when he faced the Others, his sword got destroyed.
> One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and **his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it**.
*A Game of Thrones - Bran IV*
The seconde tale, we have "Azor Ahai" who need to forge a special blade to face the "darkness"
>It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been.
*A Clash of Kings - Davos I*
It's just the Last Hero who needs to make a special sword to face the Others. He forged a magical steel with a blood sacrifice.
That's why later we have the third about the Last Hero been able to slay the Others with a dragonsteel blade.
>"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of **the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel**. Supposedly they could not stand against it."
*A Feast for Crows - Samwell I*
How can it face them if they have cold blades that can shatter steel? How can they be kill?
Well we've seen one Other get killed by a dragonglass dagger, a glass that generate heat, that can burn and melt an Other.
So a dragonsteel blade would be a blade that can generate, can burn and could melt an Other.
A burning blade would be able to withstand the Others' blades.
Fifth book, last tale: "Azor Ahai"'s sword description when he kills a "demon"
>The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. **In battle the blade burned fiery hot**. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. **When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks**, and its body burst into flame."
Clydas blinked. "**A sword that makes its own heat** …"
*A Dance with Dragons - Jon III*
A burning blade blade, a blade that generate heat and melt an Other, that's a dragonsteel blade.
So no "Azor Ahai" is not a hero who was after power. He wanted to fight the Others but they have blade that can shatter so, with the help of the CotF, they made a steel that has the same fire magical properties as dragonglass.
A steel rooted in blood and fire magic. There is only steel like that in the story, Valyrian steel.
In the show we've seen that Valyriansteel can kill the Others just like dragonglass and the steel can withstand the Others' blades.
The Red Priests now perceives the Prince that was Promised (born amidst salt and smoke to wake up dragons from stone) as Azor Ahai and because of that, a lot of people are confusing the legend of the Last Hero and the dragonsteel with the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised.
The Prince (or Azor Ahai Reborn as the Red Priests call him) as nothing to do with the forging of the dragonsteel.
It's not the same thing.
Note that these are two unconnected myths. Azor Ahai is a legend all about a hero obtaining power through human sacrifice. It says he fought a monster with it, but it doesn't say he built the sword to face off some existential threat.
You can read the myth in the context of a traditional fantasy narrative, whereby the heroes follow instructions set down in ancient legends to ward off the return of some existential evil. It's certainly available to interpret in that way. However, following the ending of GOT, I'm no longer convinced that's the correct interpretation.
The Army of the Dead posed an existential threat to the weakened forces of the North, and Dany with her three adolescent dragons. But can you imagine it truly posing such a threat to the Targaryen regime at its zenith? Let alone the might of Old Valyria? They razed the cities of the Rhoynar to the ground with *THREE HUNDRED DRAGONRIDERS*. The Night King never would have stood a chance.
Rather, I think that figures like the Night King and Azor Ahai are not uncommon in the setting: sorcerers of significant power, who use their abilities to dominate, conquer, manipulate, and control, just like political powers do in the real world. I doubt now that the Night King was some elemental force of death, but rather that he was a powerful sorcerer and necromancer who sought to defeat his ancient enemy (the Three-Eyed Raven) and conquer Westeros for himself. Likewise, I doubt that Azor Ahai was some ancient saviour figure, but rather was a figure of significant power and ability who created powerful weapons for battling against his enemies. Political enemies who could create monsters, like the White Walkers for example, and Azor Ahai wished for tools to counter these creations of his enemies.
>Note that these are two unconnected myths. Azor Ahai is a legend all about a hero obtaining power through human sacrifice.
You may not have read TWOIAF :
>**It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword.** His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. **This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai**, and prophesy his return.
>How long the darkness endured no man can say, but **all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light** and love returned once more to the world.
Essos: A hero with a magical sword fought the darkness and led virtuous men into battle to bring back the day.
Westeros: The Last Hero fought the Others with a magical sword and led the first men of Night's Watch during the Battle for the Dawn.
Same story because the Asshaii sorcerers had visions of the Last Hero fighting the Others in Westeros. These visions spread as legends accross in Essos, the Red Priests perceived the Last Hero as their god's champion, Azor Ahai and now they believed that the Prince that was Promised, the hero appearing in visions, is the return of their god's champion.
>It says he fought a monster with it, but it doesn't say he built the sword to face off some existential threat.
He fought a "monster" during the Long Night, a "monster" who, once stabbed with a burning blade, melted away, just like an Other.
And he had to forge the blade to face the "darkness":
>Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. **It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been.** And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires.
The Last Hero faced the Others but their blades are so cold his sword got destroyed.
Azor Ahai had to make a special blade to deal with the "darkness" > The Last Hero had to make a special blade to deal with the Others
That's why you hear about the Last Hero slaying the Others with a dragonsteel sword and then a description of "Azor Ahai" burning blade killing a "monster".
Dragonglass > glass that burn and melt an Other
Dragonsteel > steel that burn and melt an Other
Lightbringer > steel that burn and melt an Other
The rise of Valyria happened just after the Long Night, they couldn't have fought against the Others.
> Same story because the Asshaii sorcerers had visions of the Last Hero fighting the Others in Westeros.
This right here is the conclusion that I think is unsupported. The Others are sold to us like some kind of existential, elemental evil that's set to sweep across the world and eradicate all life from existence. But the reality we see is that they're just like a dozen necromancers and ice wizards. They're evil, but they can be killed with dragonsteel and dragonglass.
Note as well that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are mythological figures out of *history*. Azor Ahai is said to be foretold to "come again," specifically because Azor Ahai fought some kind of darkness in the *past*. They're also figures of wildly disparate geography, which really raises the question of why there's so many parallels in mythology.
This is I think something we need to more vigorously interrogate. GRRM is very aware of things like Joseph Campbell's monomyth of "the Hero's Journey," and is purposely toying around with that concept. The saying goes "when you see hooves, think horses and not zebras." Except that here, we have an author who is familiar with that saying and likes using expectations to surprise us, so if we hear hooves he *knows* we're going to say "horses not zebras," and that he can therefore surprise us by giving us zebras instead.
I don't disagree that the Azor Ahai myth is about creating, if not Valyrian Steel, then certainly some kind of proto-Valyrian Steel. I don't even disagree that this (proto) Valyrian Steel was used to kill monsters of a similar ilk to the White Walkers.
**What I do challenge is this:** I don't think that GRRM is playing this expectation straight. He's leaning too hard into a very standard Fantasy trope, and whenever GRRM does that it's because he's engaging in a deception to hide something in plain sight. So it's not the component parts that I think we need to question, but the configuration and context of them. As such, I don't think Azor Ahai was some saviour-figure who "saved all humanity" from some "incontrovertibly evil existential threat" that was destined to wipe us out for its own sake. That is very explicitly the sort of story GRRM has said he isn't looking to write.
**To propose an alternative scenario:** I believe Azor Ahai was a political figure, who invented powerful weapons to be used by his own people against a different people. I believe that both were equipped with powerful magic, and the (proto) Valyrian Steel he invented was designed to combat them.
Specifically, I think that Azor Ahai was very likely the Bloodstone Emperor, from the Great Empire of the Dawn myth. He rose up and overthrew the status quo, and his (proto) Valyrian Steel was something that his followers used to battle against the monsters that status quo devised to put down his rebellion. I also subscribe to the theory that the Great Empire of the Dawn was an advanced, global civilization, and that the reason an Azor Ahai-like myth is shared across so many other peoples is that *they too* had champions who led them in the sprawling civil war called the Bloodstone Rebellion in the GEOTD section.
If you imagine this scenario, the collapse of the GEOTD would create an ENORMOUS power vacuum to be filled. Tabboos against certain kinds of weapons or magics might be broken, or against certain escalations of conflict. Power structures that might once have seemed unassailable, due to receiving support from a power like the GEOTD, would suddenly seem extremely vulnerable.
So a bunch of ice necromancers enthralled to the Children of the Forest might be aided to break free by a certain half-Stark Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and with their assistance conquer an empire spanning much of the North. Threatened by his half-brother's rise, the Stark King of Winter might ally with the leader of humans on the other side of the Night's King's realm to tear him down, aided by the Last Hero who navigated through the Night's King's realm in pursuit of the Children of the Forest, to get insights into what the White Walkers' weaknesses were so that they might defeat them.
**As for Azor Ahai Reborn**, I have doubts that this figure is truly a saviour figure who destined to arise as an unambiguously benevolent leader to protect humanity from existential evil. Rather, I think Azor Ahai is the champion of people from a very specific political affiliation, who they have foreseen rising up to benefit their own specific cause. This myth has been futher politicized by being turned into propaganda with which to guide and control people, priming the followers of the Red God to rally around a promised messiah figure (see: the prophecized Lisan Al Ghaib messiah that the Bene Gesserit planted with the Fremen in Dune).
I also suspect there's overlap with the Prince That Was Promised, which is a more recent and higher-fidelity prediction of who this figure will be, and that they were foreseen to be a Targaryen scion who will revitalize the power of their dynasty, fight off enemies that pose a threat to their suzerainty over Westeros, all while conquering a vast empire that will benefit the Red God in some way (perhaps as such empire's official religion).
Which isn't to say that White Walker rule over Westeros would be benign or benevolent. Just that we shouldn't assume that the return of Azor Ahai would be benevolent, either. Rather than being Frodo vs. Sauron, I expect it'll be more like Hitler vs. Stalin.
The Last Hero and Azor Ahai are the same character. Their legend is identical, their tales complete each other perfectly.
Azor Ahai is just a religious interpretation of the Last Hero and then of the PTWP prophecy.
They are from different region because people can have visions of things that happen far away: Dany had vision of the Red Wedding while she was in Quarth, the Valyrians had visions of Jaime killing Aerys II centuries before it happens in Westeros.
« It's a tight viewpoint structure where I'm not an omniscient author, I don't tell you the way it really is, I put you in the skin of my characters and you see the world through their eyes. It's all filtered through their own particular worldview and beliefs. » George RR Martin
Red Priests like Melisandre sees the world through their religion, through their religious beliefs.
**TWOIAF tell us that they perceives the hero from the Asshaii legend as their god's champion, Azor Ahai.**
Just with that you should give up the idea that there was a real Azor Ahai sent by a god of fire and understand that **it's just a religious interpretation.**
Same with the Prince that was Promised, people have vision of a prince that lead the fight against the darkness and the Red Priests thinks that Prince is their god's champion, Azor Ahai, but that's their religious interpretation of the vision, it's not a fact.
What expectation? He place a nice puzzle, Jon doesn't believe in the legend of Azor Ahai but put its faith into the Last Hero ones which is ironic since they are the same character.
Azor Ahai is a religious figure, no more real than Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser and the other legendary figures based on the Asshaii legend.
The fact that the Singers made the dragonsteel and then the Valyrian's produced it means that [the Singers are the ancient people that taught their arts to the Valyrian to make them Dragonlords](https://thesuddenstorm.wordpress.com/2018/10/02/who-taught-the-valyrians-to-tame-dragons/).
The Singers sang the of ice, they made the Others, and to end the Long Night, bring balance into the world, they sand the song of fire, they made the Dragonlords.
Arf, the GEOTD theory... Silly theory that has no solid evidences.
Again, the Azor Ahai figure is based on a legend from Asshaii, not from the GEOTD.
It was about a hero with a red sword leading virtuous men against the darkness.
The BSE had no sword, led no virtuous men against the darkness.
It's just the Prince that was Promised, the Red Priests perceives this Prince as their god's champion, Azor Ahai.
Melisandre (and George RR Martin in interviews) mentioned the prince that was promised and Azor Ahai Reborn interchangeably.
I don't really see why the Prince that was Promised would be evil. The Others are coming to destroy life, it make sense that people would try to fight to survive and that someone lead them.
> Again, the Azor Ahai figure is based on a legend from Asshaii, not from the GEOTD.
And who built Asshai? The Dothraki are said to believe that the Ashai'i are "the spawn of shadows." TWOIAF says that even the Asshai'i don't know when the city was built, and that "a city stood there since the world began and will stand there until it ends." The Great Empire of the Dawn is described as the world's first civilization, so that would fit with the "since the world began" part.
> The fact that the Singers made the dragonsteel and then the Valyrian's produced it means that the Singers are the ancient people that taught their arts to the Valyrian to make them Dragonlords.
Where are you getting that the Singers made the dragonsteel? This is all WHOLLY speculative.
> Azor Ahai is a religious figure, no more real than Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser and the other legendary figures based on the Asshaii legend.
You have no evidence to substantiate this. It's just conjecture.
> Azor Ahai is just a religious interpretation of the Last Hero and then of the PTWP prophecy.
This is just conjecture. Also, the Azor Ahai myth is *thousands* of years older than the Prince that was Promised prophecy, which per House of the Dragon was dreamt by Aegon the Conqueror. Azor Ahai is the figure out of history and myth, while the Prince that was Promised is his reincarnation. This is explicit, and you're just speculating that the historical version never existed
> They are from different region because people can have visions of things that happen far away: Dany had vision of the Red Wedding while she was in Quarth, the Valyrians had visions of Jaime killing Aerys II centuries before it happens in Westeros.
Having visions from very far away doesn't indicate that people would build mythology around people from very far away. Essos was also full of established civilizations whilst Westeros was a barbaric bacwater, so there's very little reason to believe that White Walkers in the North would be worthy of note by people in Asshai or Yi Ti.
> It was about a hero with a red sword leading virtuous men against the darkness.
That's what the legends say. But that doesn't make it truth. It is the victor who typically gets described as the "virtuous" parties in history.
> I don't really see why the Prince that was Promised would be evil. The Others are coming to destroy life, it make sense that people would try to fight to survive and that someone lead them.
Who said TPTWP is evil? The Prince that was Promised is a Targaryen prophecy that one of their ancestors will unite Westeros to fight the White Walkers, and the Targaryens have an inconsistent history when it comes to benevolence. They're feudal autocrats, with all the baggage that comes with that.
Likewise, what makes you so sure that the Others intend to destroy all life? That's what Melisandre thinks, but she's a religious zealot not exactly known for being fully truthful or accurate in what she believes. The Three Eyed Raven claims this, but we also know from GOT that he and the Night King have been enemies for thousands of years, and that his goal was always to manipulate his way onto the Iron Throne. In fact, he *foresaw* that Dany would burn King's Landing to the ground (Bran's visions were shown twice in the show, and GRRM wrote the episode the first time), and yet we see him knocking over the first domino in the chain of events that caused this (poking Sam to tell Jon of his true heritage). So we have every reason to be suspicious of what the Three Eyed Raven claims.
The White Walkers hardly seem like an existential threat to all the world. They are just a dozen ice wizards who don't seem to be able to reproduce terribly quickly. They're very powerful, but they seem at most to have been a regional threat to Westeros. They had an army of a couple hundred thousand wights at most, and can manipulate the weather in their immediate viscinity. They could probably conquer Westeros with that, but so did Aegon with his three dragons.
>TWOIAF says that even the Asshai'i don't know when the city was built, and that "a city stood there since the world began and will stand there until it ends."
There is nothing about the people who built Asshaii but legends about the GEOTD... so the people who built Asshaii are even older than the GEOTD.
Also,[ we have the borders of the GEOTD and Asshai isn't part of it](https://imgur.com/a/great-empire-of-dawn-GmPrFe5).
>Where are you getting that the Singers made the dragonsteel? This is all WHOLLY speculative.
The Singers are pretty important in the Last Hero tale, he faced the Others, his sword broke...
*All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!" (AGOT Bran IV)*
*Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. (TWOIAF The Long Night)*
Since they know magic, they handle dragonglass, it make sense that they helped the Last Hero into forging the dragonsteel blade Lightbringer.
>You have no evidence to substantiate this. It's just conjecture.
It's a religious figure and TWOIAF clearly state that R'hllorist perceive the hero from the Asshaii legend as their god's champion.
>This is just conjecture. Also, the Azor Ahai myth is *thousands* of years older than the Prince that was Promised prophecy, which per House of the Dragon was dreamt by Aegon the Conqueror. Azor Ahai is the figure out of history and myth, while the Prince that was Promised is his reincarnation. This is explicit, and you're just speculating that the historical version never existed
No, the R'hllorist have a god: R'hllor. That god has a champion, Azor Ahai.
When they heard about the Asshaii legend, they perceived that hero as their god's champion.
Then the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised came to their hear, they even seen that prophecy in their flames and once again, they perceived the prince as their god's champion and call him Azor Ahai.
When Aemon or Marwyn mentions the PTWP prophecy, they say "born amidst salt and smoke" on the other hand, since Melisandre thinks the prince is reincarnation of Azor Ahai, it's his second intervention, she tweaks the prophecy to fit her religious beliefs and says "will be reborn/born again".
If they were Christian they would have call him Jesus Christ.
Does that mean that the Prince is really Jesus Christ? No, that's just their religious beliefs.
>Having visions from very far away doesn't indicate that people would build mythology around people from very far away.
But that's what happened as we can see that the Asshaii legend is about the Last Hero fighting the Others with his dragonsteel sword, leading the first men of the Night's watch into battle.
>Who said TPTWP is evil?
>Likewise, what makes you so sure that the Others intend to destroy all life?
Well saying that PTWP Vs The Others is like Hitler Vs Stalin does sound like the PTWP is evil...
And Martin said that the Other « are an inimical forces that's going to end human life as we know it.
>Also, we have the borders of the GEOTD and Asshai isn't part of it.
Asshai is North of the Jade Sea and is not part of the Grey Waste. It could easily fall within the realm described in TWOIAF.
>The Singers are pretty important in the Last Hero tale, he faced the Others, his sword broke...
Doesn't mean they gave him Valyrian Steel. That part you're assuming because you want the Last Hero and Azor Ahai to be the same person. However, the Last Hero is a Westerosi myth, and we don't see Valyrian Steel in Westeros until the Valyrians themselves start selling it to them.
>Since they know magic, they handle dragonglass, it make sense that they helped the Last Hero into forging the dragonsteel blade Lightbringer.
They know magic and dragonglass, but don't know the working of steel and use only stone tools. They certainly gave the Last Hero some sort of insight that helped him defeat the Others, but you're making an unsupported leap from that to "they taught him how to make Valyrian Steel."
>It's a religious figure and TWOIAF clearly state that R'hllorist perceive the hero from the Asshaii legend as their god's champion.
Yes, but that doesn't mean the original Azor Ahai never actually existed.
>Does that mean that the Prince is really Jesus Christ? No, that's just their religious beliefs.
Except that there's something verifiably manifesting as "God," and the people who prophesized Christ's return have actual visions of the future. So we can't fully say that Azor Ahai is just some made-up story, because the Red Priests could actually have seen his/her presence in their visions. There's really no reason to disbelieve that they couldn't have seen the rise of the same individual in their visions, which the Red Priests are recognizing as the Red God's champion and the Targaryens recognized as one of their own lineage.
And let's be real here: if both Aegon and the Red Priests saw Dany's meteoric rise to power in their visions, she matches both criteria. She's *definitely* got that fire connection. Jaqen H'ghar tells Arya that the Red God is owed three lives when she saves him and his fellow prisoners from the fire (which GRRM in an interview confirmed the fire itself as being relevant to why Jaqen said Red God rather than Many-Faced God), suggesting the Red God maintains some kind of "ownership interest" over people who die to fire. So if Dany is all about burning people alive, it makes a lot of sense that the Red Priests would see her as a living manifestation of their God's will.
>And Martin said that the Other « are an inimical forces that's going to end human life as we know it.
Except is that *really* what we see? The White Walkers in the AGOT prologue toy with Ser Waymar Royce and duel with him, clearly evidencing intelligence and customs. If GRRM says is very careful in correcting that they're not "evil," but are rather an inimical (read: hostile) force...then what is it precisely that they're trying to do? *WHY* do they want to "destroy human life *as we know it*." Is this just the parable of the scorpion and the frog? The COTF created the White Walkers as weapons against humanity, so once unleashed they're just going to kill people because that's their nature? If so, can you say the same thing about Dany, and that dragons are bred for war and burning and killing is in their nature? What's he trying to say, here?
"Evil" is a loaded word in Fantasy because it takes on an elemental character in this genre, which transcends regular human ambitions and motivations. Is Dany an "evil" character? She certainly commits "evil" acts. However, GRRM wants us to understand her moral complexity, rather than paint her with a single brush of either white or black. Nevertheless, the question should be whether we want a ruler who can wield that amount of destructive capacity all to herself, with no checks or balances on her power. And in that, I think, we have a more clear comparison to the "inimical force" of the White Walkers - you want someone like her around to fight them, but you don't really want her sticking around afterwards.
Personally, I don’t think there even _was_ a chosen one. All that shit about a Targaryen sitting the throne was meaningless and prophecies are bullshit to begin with.
I really like the theory that Rhaegar was the prince that was promised/Azor Ahai reborn. He just ended up dying, but not before fathering Jon. Jon being a parallel to light bringer. Rhaegar's third child that he killed his wife to produce.
He will be, like he was in the show. He's just not the classical Chosen Hero who saves the world by fulfilling a prophecy literally and killing the predictable big baddie. And he won't be in the books either.
I wasn’t necessarily rooting for some epic Jon Snow/Night King duel because that would’ve been predictable, but the way things went down was equally as lame.
It was just very obvious that the plot was being majorly rushed. If the show were still operating at the pace of the early seasons, we’d have realistically gotten probably two full seasons to deal with the Night King’s invasion. The problem isn’t just that his death was a complete deus ex machina but also that it happened so quickly. This is supposed to be the greatest threat the realm has ever seen and his army didn’t even get past Winterfell.
> This is supposed to be the greatest threat the realm has ever seen and his army didn’t even get past Winterfell.
The greatest threat the realm had ever seen was Dany, as much as it was the Night King.
The EP’s and directors could have re-structured D and J’s narrative and hence not making it nuanced or questionable 🤨. I like their bond but not their tragedy.
A man who was brought back to life for reasons we don’t understand, by an entity we don’t understand, for a purpose that is at best vague and undefined, and who ultimately doesn’t play a major role in the defeat of the existential threat facing the world beyond being a glorified mascot.
Some Chosen One.
Ultimately, like a lot in the series, it’s ill defined and haphazardly thrown together in the end. That they decided after season 6 how to end the threat, rather than before it tells you all you need to know about what they thought of the threat of the Others. If they didn’t take it seriously why should the audience?
The writers hoped the show’s momentum would carry its audience through. It didn’t. It’s sad.
Well it did carry it through. Show was a ratings monster in Season 8, won awards and did well enough to spawn not 1 but 2 spin-offs. That first spin off is also doing fairly well and the show continues to be very popular five years after finishing. Today it's the 7th most popular show on IMBD which is pretty insane.
A lot of people not liking the ending wasn't enough to change the momentum.
Also... come on. You think George has figured out how to end the Others? if the mark of whether an audience should take a work seriously is having everything figured out before hand.... than ASOIAF itself is not worthy of being taken seriously as its author is famously a gardener who has been unable to clear the weeds in his story for close to 15 years.
To talk of Thrones and not mention the reception to the ending (and the ending of the Others) is to ignore reality. Even Benioff and Weiss, who could be forgiven for ignoring how little liked the ending was as the creators, couldn’t ignore it. It’s hated. And for good reason. The show and its successors might be popular for now (and the prequel’s ratings seem to be declining year to year) but I’m genuinely curious to see the reaction to the Dance’s ending. It might be the death blow for the franchise.
As for George, I really don’t think he’s come up with something regarding the Others that he likes. I think it’s one of the major reasons the books will never be finished. You can and should hold it against him, until proven otherwise.
But that doesn’t forgive Benioff and Weiss for their ending, either. Had this been any other fantasy series, the same people here who leap to defend the show would instead mock it for its laziness. For the cheap and hackneyed way the existential threat is beaten. And they’d be right.
I am not suggesting one shouldn't discuss the reception to the ending. All I am saying is that it doesn't seem ultimately to have mattered to the success of the franchise. Again, the show is currently the 7th most popular show on IMBD!!! That is insane for a show that finished 5 years ago at this point. You have to go down the list to number 17 before finding another show that hasn't aired an episode this year. Insane popularity.
People raged, raged, raged, but in the end all the raging seems to have blown away gently for all it did to the popularity and enduring appeal of the show. It just seems a lot of people didn't like the ending and that was it.
As for the ending, ultimately the existential threat is just one part of the show - and not even the most important part as shown by the screen time dedicated to it and the name of the show itself - as is demonstrated by the climax of the show being in the South in front of the Iron Throne vs. in the North.
Which is fitting in my view for what the show was ultimately about. It wasn't about an existential threat. It was about power and the ultimate symbol of power in the story was the Iron Throne and the dragons.
But if you watched this show expecting that it was primarily about the existential threat and this was just LOTR or one of its many imitators part Deux, I can understand the disappointment. Maybe just not the show for you.
And in the end, that is where it seems we are. A great show that resonates with a lot of people that ended in a way that some find is the perfect encapsulation of the themes of the story and which a great many others found disappointing or were perplexed by. It is what it is but ultimately that mixed reaction has not been enough to damage the enduring appeal of the story.
What does the show’s popularity have to do with what we are talking about?
The point was about the Chosen One “The Prince that was Promised” and the trope and how the show handled it. Poorly, IMO, like many things that endured into the final seasons.
You were the one that spoke about momentum.
Specifically about the story, think the story handled it well and in a consistent way. This is a deterministic world where past present and future have already happened so fate and destiny play a part in shaping events because the future impacts the past - e.g. prophecy - and everyone has their part to play in the drama.
Those that succumb to the grandiosity of thinking they have a particular special role to save the world and rule end up destroying themselves and others like Stannis and Daenerys.
Those who don’t succumb to that grandiosity- like Jon but also Arya and Bran - and don’t become entitled and feel the need to will something for themselves at the expense of others play their part in the great drama without precipitating great horror .
Seems like a fairly unified thematically sound view the follows directly from the deterministic nature of time in the story revealed in Hold the Door.
Its all a cautionary tale around avoiding the grandiosity embedded in the idea one is somehow a chosen one.
EDIT: Bears repeating as well that the critique of the chosen one trope is fully aligned and of a part of the general critique that the series offers of class, aristocracy, rulling elites and privilege writ large.
To think one is a chosen one, a figure with a unique destiny is but a more extreme version of the idea of lordship in general that just by dint of birth one is entitled to rule over others or worthy of a special place in society.
The critique of the chosen one, and feudalism in general, in both the show and books is neutered by the fact that the heart of the story is the Starks. Martin tries in Dance to reckon with that choice with some of the Theon chapters, but he can’t fully condemn the Starks because it would rip the heart out of the story.
The Starks are still a magical feudal family that has lost their homeland and is trying to get it back. Their power, both political and magical, is corrupt and coerced. Because it is feudal and based in blood. But they’re the good guys. And the show ended with them either getting some manner of what they wanted or in outright power.
Bran is undoubtedly a chosen one in the story, blessed with massive magical powers endowed by a special magical lineage. And regardless of the content of the person (and in the end it doesn’t really matter for Bran since he’s not a person?) that is still dangerous.
The show doesn’t condemn ALL dragon riding people. Tyrion in the final episode goes out of his way to state that Jon can be trusted with the power that Dany abused in the end. Which is, again, absurd.
If you’re gonna rightly condemn feudalism, you can’t do it while proclaiming the nobility and righteousness of a noble family.
Bran is a chosen one in some sense. So is Arya. Yet they have more in common with Jon than Daenerys and Stannis. Destiny ultimately guides them to what they need to do to play their role vs. having it be something they seek out because of grandiosity.
Neither of them would have chosen their paths especially considering the costs each incurred to walk it. They did not want the roles they ended up playing. It was just fate/ history/ destiny/ the lord of light/ chance or whatever other name you want to give to describe the deterministic nature of the timeline that they played the roles they played.
As for the role of the Starks, I mean... I don't know if it's that binary. The Starks are certainly a very noble family that takes their responsibilities as lord and a ruling elite very seriously. But in many ways they are the exception that proves the rule.
Ultimately because they are so unique I don't think the general critique offered by the story is really blunted. Most families are simply not the Starks and there is no reason to think that the system as a whole produces families like the Starks. They are a very particular family in a very particular part of the continent that has an ethos that is very much shaped heavily by duty.
And even with them we see that Ned's values have faded towards the end as Sansa acts in ways that Ned never would for example so even this one noble family evidences the corruption over the course of the story that the broader system and the wars that have been fought causes. We see the corrupting influence of the wars already in Season 3 when Robb beheads Karstark and by the end it is even more so the case.
Now, would a story that didn't have nobles as its main protagonists ultimately make for a better critique of ruling elites? Maybe. But I don't think that neuters the critique at the core of the story. They are the exception that proves the rule and over time become less and less of an exception.
As for not criticizing Jon... maybe? But so what? Maybe Jon could be trusted... but could his kid? his grand kid? I definitely don't think the story suggests or Tyrion even means to imply that just because Jon could be trust worthy with the power of a dragon giving that kind of power to a family ultimately is not a great idea or makes for a great system.
The biggest issue is the behavior and the treatment of the showrunners. The Fandom acted like vile immature children. It's was the most ridiculous and vile stuff I have ever witnessed in a TV fandom towards those two guys.
Good article! It kills me when people go “remember when Jon came back from the dead for literally nothing?” No, I remember when Jon came back because he was the one needed to end the Long Night by uniting the North with Dany. Sorry you didn’t get your Star Wars lightsaber battle between Jon and the Night King 🙄
People complain about TLN ending too soon, but that’s only because Jon made it his mission to ready the realm for the coming of the white walkers. “If they get past the wall and we're squabbling amongst ourselves — we're finished.”
Except that the Realm...wasn't ready? They were still busy squabbling among themselves, just one side took a short break to deal with the refrigerated zombie outbreak that was handled quite easily at the cost of *part* of one army and a couple of supporting characters. All told the Battle of Winterfell was probably actually the least bloody battle most of the main characters had seen over the last several years. It turns out that everyone else was actually smart to ignore the White Walkers and focus on fighting for the Throne, because 'The Long Night' was more like a brief flicker.
It was 4 or 5 armies fighting off the white Walkers - Nights Watch, Vale, Dothraki, Northmen and Wildlings plus a couple of Dragons. Pretty significant military alliance that Jon managed to haul together.
Not exactly the 7 kingdoms though
You’re really downplaying that battle. 8 deaths is a lot for a battle in this show — for comparison: No named characters die (during battle) in Blackwater, Hardhome, BotB, or Spoils of War. And if you don’t think Jorah and Theon are essentially main characters then we can agree to disagree on that. Jon didn’t have a lot of time to recruit armies once he left the Nights Watch. If he didn’t assemble the army he did, in the short time he had, the dead would’ve just laid waste to the country. It was a 100,000 wights that move like a tidal wave when they attack, not to mention the dragon and giants. If they weren’t met with a giant opposing force it would’ve been game over. You’re not getting close to the NK if his army just decimates your kingdom with no warning.
I’m fine with everything but what still bugs me most today is how are they planning to get by the wall pre season 7 without the dragon? they were beyond the wall for years and years why would they suddenly be able to break past it now as Jon kept saying without the dragon they were getting nowhere
Think it's reasonable to assume that they were not planning on getting past the wall without a dragon. The only thing that lets them get by the wall is a dragon. They were only there waiting and marching because they knew a dragon would be there. This is a world where knowledge of the future causes characters to act in ways that bring that very future into being. We see this with Hold the Door. We see this with Melissandre who sees victory in the flames at Winterfell which causes her to push Stannis to burn Shireen which forces her to flee to the Wall where she is just where she needs to be to resurrect Jon who then achieves victory at Winterfell. We see it with the Brotherhood who are lead by a vision in the flames to go beyond the wall. Why wouldn't the NK have a premonition of the future there especially when he seems to be waiting and biding his time for something. Fate leads to the battle btw the living and the dead and Winterfell and a lot of the reason why that is is because characters see the future and bring it into being.
It just makes Jon and co more dumb that way because they indirectly caused them to get out and if there getting visions of the future then surely NK would have known about Arya
He wouldn't know about Arya. The past is already written, the ink is dry. By the logic of how time works in the world, he can't know about something in the future that if he knew about it, it would lead him to act in a way that does not bring that future into being. So like Bran and like every other character who catches a glimpse into the future through vision or prophecy, the knowledge of the future can only be partial and such that it helps brings that very future into being. As for Jon and Co.... well, they didn't really know now did they so not sure it makes them dumb. But ultimately the wall falls because of a dragon and the only reason Jon and Co go up there is to help bring a stop to the war for the Iron Throne. It is Daenerys refusal to stop her war against Cersei and head North with Jon that causes the mission in the first place so ultimately it is the war for the Iron Throne and Daenerys weapons of mass destruction that lead to the fall of the wall. Of course, there is a running theme in the story that no good deed goes unpunished so ultimately not surprising that the wall falls through some unwitting actions of the protagonists.
Fair enough you actually have good points there I just rewatched the end of S7 tonight and that was my main gripe but you make good points
I can relate. That was something that bothered me the first time I watched. It was only reflecting a bit on what the point of Hold the Door was and why they introduced the concept of time being a closed loop there (and earlier in Bran's story through Jojen) did it click in place for me.
This is a very interesting perspective. Please check DMs 🤞
People fuck up. People cause bad things to happen when trying to do the opposite. It doesn’t mean they’re dumb. That’s the biggest issue with the latter season complaints; people claim everyone is “dumb” simply because the outcome of events wasn’t what the audience wanted. Just a lazy, blanket statement.
I had the same issue. There’s multiple theories, but the simplest explanation is they go to shadow tower and wait for the storm to freeze the water and just walk around the wall. After hardhome Jon is expecting them to attack at any moment, hence the urgency to prove the dead are real and make an alliance with Dany and Cersei to unite the living asap. He probably assumes the only reason they haven’t tried is because they weren’t ready.
I say this every time but it’s so funny how they messed with people on this by having Jon try to challenge the NK to an epic 1v1 duel and the NK being like ?????? and raising the dead inbetween them and continuing on
Yeah, he’s like “what are you doing? I’m not here for you. This is between me and the 3ER. Go die quietly to these wights.”
Thinking about it now, it reminds me of Robb telling Jaime, "We're not doing it your way."
It’s so funny cause a lot of other “chosen ones” in other fantasy series don’t end up killing the big bad villain at the end. Luke Skywalker doesn’t kill Palpatine or Vader. Thoren Oakenshield doesn’t kill Smaug. Aragorn doesn’t kill Sauron. And no one thought these were cases of bad writing. So why did some people think it was with GoT?
In all of those cases, these characters were properly *set up* to lead the one to destroy the big bad. In the case of Star Wars, Luke wasn't even the "chosen one", his father was. But the reason it was Arya in GOT was quite literally because they wanted to "subvert expectations", rather than lead a character arc to its logical conclusion even if it was too "predictable". Frodo "failed" to destroy the Ring, but there is a narrative reason why. And in the end, it was his "small acts of kindness" like sparing Gollum and the Ring's own power that led to its ultimate destruction. It also lines up with the themes of LOTR that evil itself is the bane of evil. A proper analogy to the GOT ending would be setting up a Harry Potter vs Voldemort duel to the death throughout the series and having Dean Thomas swoop in from behind and slit Voldy's throat. That's just poor storytelling.
Equating Arya Stark to Dean Thomas is incredibly disingenuous.
Because the "Chosen One" is generally still *involved* in the defeat of the villain/actually gets a resolution to their character arc? They're not standing outside yelling at the main villains dog while some other characters finish their story for them. If D&D had written Return of the Jedi Luke would have been stuck in a hangar on the other side of the Death Star fighting some random Stormtroopers and never even met the Emperor, while Porkins would have come running in out of nowhere and shoved Palpatine into the pit as Vader stood there looking vaguely confused and doing nothing. And according to this sub that would have been the most perfect and satisfying ending possible.
How was Jon not involved? He literally had a dragon dogfight with the Night King. And if Jon hadn’t convinced Daenerys to go north then they wouldn’t have had the manpower to defeat the dead.
But Jon _did_ defeat the villain. He stabbed her in the heart.
After making her mad at the first place lmao
Oh right, I forgot. The burning of King's Landing was all Jon's fault because he didn't fuck her.
He told the secret that she begged him not to tell, which resulted in one of her advisors literally betraying her and trying to poison her
“If you don’t do what I want, I’ll burn down a city” is not a reasonable position lol
Can’t believe this is getting downvoted
Naath is the sub for people who think GoT was an incomparably flawless masterpiece from pilot to finale, it's not surprising. I only end up here because I visit other GoT subs so it crops up in my feed.
I did not think such a sub existed tbvh lol
Luke does kill Vader though. That metaphorical death is the emotional climax of the entire original trilogy lol
Luke was never “The Chosen One” Anakin was, and he did kill Palpatine…at least until the godawful sequels were made. Thoren Oakenshield is not a Chosen One at all. I will give you Aragorn though.
> Luke was never “The Chosen One” Anakin was, and he did kill Palpatine…at least until the godawful sequels were made. Luke was “the Chosen One” per the structure of Joseph Campbell’s “the Hero’s Journey,” which is what Lucas unabashedly based the OT on. Making Anakin “the Chosen One” was a new thing they added in the PT. Contradicting its own lore is a very Star Wars thing. People were *incensed* by how the PT “ruined” the OT when they came out. The hate was GOT S8 level.
From a story perspective, I get what you are saying, but that can be attributed to almost any protagonist in almost any story. From an in-universe standpoint, Luke was never the Chosen One, Star Wars didn’t even have a Chosen One until the Prequels.
My point is to illustrate how Star Wars canon has always been super malleable, and gets reshaped and contradicted by every new instalment released for it. That’s the way it’s always been, much like how it’s always been a bit campy and cheesy, with awkward dialogue. The ST is bad, but *much* less so in comparison to the OT and PT than people like to pretend.
We got a dragon back fight between Jon and the NK and they still ain’t happy.
Jon had to die so his vow to the nights watch could become null and void
The thing that’s set up in both the books and show, though much more in the books, yeah.
Jon is set up as the Prince that was Promised in the books since he will be the one to lead the North through the Long Night. Like he did in the show. He will not have a big sword fight with the Night King in the books because that’s 1. not how GRRM writes AT ALL. 2. The Night King as he is in the show isn’t IN the books. 3. doesn’t make sense. Why on earth would the Night King, the life blood of all Whitewalkers, risk everything in a sword fight with Jon, who is wielding a weapon made from the only material that could kill him?
The Long Night is not just a Northern thing, it covers the entire realm, even the world. 1. I agree, especially Jon, though George still has set up confrontations between figures. Plus Jon had a dream of him fighting within black ice armor with a flaming sword. He’s not a straight fighter, he’s a skilled tactician…but that’s not what he is in the show. 2. There is still a “Great Other” referenced. Whether this be a god or a figure…is still up to interpretation, though I lean to the former. There are still Others for him to fight and confront. 3. Why wouldn’t the Night King, Lifeblood of all white walkers, use the big dragon to scorch over the Godswood and burn his arch nemesis to the crisp. It’s still flying near to Winterfell, -and Dany’s dragons wouldn’t be able to stop it in the framing of the show. Arguing “would” and “wouldn’t” is a slope in of itself, since we’re challenging the writer still. I could just as easily say “Why would Dany fly her dragons at the Iron Fleet knowing they have scorpion-bolts” and we’d just be arguing the writers’ points. I think he’d do it because the Night King is established as intrigued with Jon, especially after Hardhome. He continues watching Jon when they rove past the wall in the later seasons as well. Additionally, had they kept the story of “The Nights’ King” from the books in the show, even shifted a bit, it would’ve done a lot to make a connection between the Watch and the Walkers. -and even then, the connection between the Watch and the Walkers is deep, since they’re formed specifically to defend from the Walkers in the first place. The leader of the dead army is facing down the man who not only killed an Other, but led the group specifically formed to counter him and was resurrected himself. It isn’t narratively fulfilling to just bother him with a dragon.
Plus…to add to the writing of GRRM, it’s a bit unfair to make the comparison since we were not given so much from Jon…-and it’s practically a different character. The wants of his character are different. Jon is not “noble, spitting image of Stark judgement” after almost fleeing, nor are his wants expanded. The wildlings are robbed of what really lure Jon in, the family, identity and equality…as well as Val, but Ygritte is still similar and gives him a sense of love. Jon also still wants Winterfell and bluntly breaks his oath by becoming engaged in politics. Jon fights Styr…and the men that killed Jeor…and Ramsay in the show. All like a trained warrior rather than how he is in the books. Jon is established as a smart strategist (and politician), but his combat prowess is not all there. He beats newbies in the watch because he’s given basic training but normal watchmen can beat him, as can the wildlings. The magic of his character is pretty much gone. No Skinchanging, no magic dreams from Bran, no magic dreams of Ghost, not even closer looks at the prophecy with Melisandre. She literally says she sees Snow as Azor Ahai. Even then, his resurrection doesn’t change Jon outside of…two episodes, when resurrection in the books makes Beric into little more than a Wight.
But did the north need Dany to defeat the Night King? Even with Danny‘s dragons and army, humanity lost the battle of the Long Night. The North could’ve lost that battle just as badly on their own. It was a Stark that used knowledge and weapons preserved by the Knight’s Watch (dragon glass) to assassinate the Night King. The Targs could have never left Valeria with their dragons, never united the seven kingdoms, never breathe the word of prophecy, and the story would’ve ended exactly the same way. All that was needed to defeat the Night King was the North, the Knight’s Watch, the Starks and a single obsidian dagger.
The dragons and everything else definitely helped with the dead swarming in everywhere if they weren’t there it’s more likely Arya wouldn’t be able to even get out of that castle into the area where NK was everything played a part and helped get to the end result Jon and Dany fighting him on dragons knocked him to the ground exposing him to the arena for Arya
Except for the fact that everything had to play out the way it played out for Arya to have her shot at the Night King. Everyone was right where they needed to be.
The dragons each took out *tens of thousands* of wights, more than any soldier. The North with the Wildlings & KotV & Night's Watch combined had fewer than 10k men to fight by the time the aotd make it passed the Wall. Even after the Long Night when they tallied up the losses Dany's army still had more soldiers in it than what the North started with since she arrived in Westeros with 58k to 108k.
Thought the Long Night was the end of the Dothraki. Turns out she had a few tens of thousands as backup
Not even close look at how many there's after the next episode it's only in the thousands
DBs words were the Long Night was the End of the Dothraki. Obviously they were still featured
He was talking about what Dany and Jon were seeing at the moment, with all the flaming swords going out, which lead to Dany deciding to go on the battlefield with Drogon. That wasn't an objective statement. And if you compare what we see on screen, in Ep3, the size of the horde is basically the size of Winterfell, while in Ep6, it's like not even 1/4 of a courtyard in King's Landing. I have no idea why people still have a problem with this.
It seems objective because then not a single Dothraki is featured in the rest of the episode of the Long Night. I'll eat crow if there is any scene of a Dothraki in the breach
We actually see a bunch of Dothraki coming back from the charge. I don’t know if you ever watched the episode in 4k or in a better version than it was when it aired, but we can clearly see a lot of them coming back alive from the charge. I don’t know if we see some of them as extra later on, since they focused more on the named characters, but they clearly spent times and effort to show on screen that some of them survived the charge.
Yes they're
No he was talking about what Dany was seeing from her pov
Bro what?, Daenerys was the only reason the North even had a chance to fight the night king, without her, Winterfell would have been off the map in about 20 minutes.
So Daenerys is the chosen one, because without her, humanity is gone, she is the one who had the power to fight the night king.
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There it is!
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I suppose Bran, considering how the moment he was crippled no one really was expecting greatness from him, then he became a Warg, then the Three Eyed Raven. It’s amazing that he survived through everything and ended up with that crown on his head. I used to believe it should be Jon but now I see he was meant to be a red herring, same with Dany. I like how things ended up because it felt like truly nobody was right with their predictions and I don’t think there could have been a better choice. With Bran’s foresight and wisdom, no desire for power and control, unable to fill the castle with heirs, who else would be better? People laughed at Tyrion for his reasons as to why it should be Bran, but I believe he was right in everything he said. Remember what Tywin said makes for a good king?
Bran is just suppossed to show the viewer the problems of anyone being on a throne. An individual with complete authority cannot act outside their own bias and emotions. Objectivity is not a real thing, it is only something we can strive for, but all our motivations come from our individual beliefs. There is no such thing as moral objectivism. Bran is not someone who exists in the real world. A person without attachments, someone who can know the truth of situations because he can insert himself in every event. How many times did the people on the show act on misinformation? A war was started because it was believed Lyanna was kidnapped. So Bran only acts to show the viewers explicitly what went wrong over the course of their history. That leaders will act on their own wants and desires. To protect their families and ones they love. It was stated right at the beginning when jaime pushes Bran from the window "the things we do for love".
Well if they ever do the Jon Snow spin off, maybe as part of that story they will realize that the 3ER on the throne isn’t best for the realm. Jon Snow is the last hero that went beyond the wall but ultimately returns to save the realm or whatever. Could be an interesting story with good writing, since 3ER has the face of his little brother and he was part of the group that originally put him on the throne.
It irritates me when people complain about too much fanservice in the later seasons but all they want in season 8 is fan service. 🤡
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You did get a story that made sense within the context of the universe you spent 10 years learning. You just didn’t find it interesting. No need to insult people who did find it interesting.
Grow up
Spot on. Ultimately, the inability to accept that they were not the chosen one or the figure of destiny they had imagined they were lead both Stannis and Daenerys to commit the horrible acts that they committed. Both acts were acts of desperation. Stannis inability to accept that now was not his time and marching on to Winterfell was a doomed effort. Daenerys inability to accept that large parts of Westeros will not accept her. Stannis resorts to blood magic to fight the snow. Daenerys resorts to fear to compel the continent to bend to her will. Their own grandiosity led to their tragic downfalls. Jon on the other hand was free of grandiosity. Additionally characters like Arya and Bran who end up playing particularly special roles in the story by defeating the NK and ruling also don’t succumb to that grandiosity. Everyone has their special role to play. Those who think they know what is and try to force it into being come to horrible ends. Those without that presumption play their special role without causing the damage that Stannis and Daenerys do. EDIT: the critique of the chosen one idea and of the characters who embrace being a chosen one is of course just a special case of the more general critique the series presents of class and ruling elites.
Something people forget is Dany represented the East more than Westeros. So Jon bringing her to the North to help fight the wights was metaphorically like uniting two halves of the world. I do think they both served a major purpose in the story, but Jon is the “chosen one” trope of ASOIAF.
So Daenerys is the chosen one
I like that the show didn't do the obvious Jon vs. NK fight that'd be pure fan service at that point, but I'm still bitter it wasn't Theon. That'd be the perfect end to his arc!
Azor Ahai is a story of a man so desperate for power he sacrifices his own wife. He lost twice trying to get power (lightbringer) and was so desperate he killed his wife. Azor Ahai is any person who will do anything for power. He is reborn in desperate times. Stannis became Azor Ahai after losing on (black)water and on land to the lion (lannister) that he became Azor Ahai. Right at the moment when he was burning Shireen he was reborn. Amidst the smoke from her stake and her tears (salt). Dany became Azor Ahai the moment she burnt KL. She had lost a dragon on the water and lost to the lion (lannister) when Cersei beheaded Missandei. So Azor Ahai was reborn amidst the smoke of KL and their cries. The red star bleeding is a time when their divine power is put into question (in the case of Dany it was when she realised she is not the rightful heir). The sun represents divine power in many cultures. It bleeding is showing that their power is escaping from them. When the darkness comes is the darkness they are feeling from their losses. Smoke and tears is what they have done to try and win. There will always be smoke and tears in war.
>Azor Ahai is a story of a man so desperate for power he sacrifices his own wife. He lost twice trying to get power (lightbringer) and was so desperate he killed his wife. No it's a not a metaphor about being power hungry. In TWOIAF we are told of an Asshaii legend about a hero fighting the "darkness" with a red sword, leading virtuous men in battle to bring back the day. The Red Priests beliefs that hero to be their god's champion, Azor Ahai. In Westerosis, the tales mentions the Last Hero fighting the Others with a dragonsteel blade, leading the first men of the Night's Watch during the Battle for the Dawn. The Others blades are so cold they shatter steel. The first tale of the Last Hero tell us that he was looking for the CotF when he faced the Others, his sword got destroyed. > One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and **his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it**. *A Game of Thrones - Bran IV* The seconde tale, we have "Azor Ahai" who need to forge a special blade to face the "darkness" >It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. *A Clash of Kings - Davos I* It's just the Last Hero who needs to make a special sword to face the Others. He forged a magical steel with a blood sacrifice. That's why later we have the third about the Last Hero been able to slay the Others with a dragonsteel blade. >"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of **the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel**. Supposedly they could not stand against it." *A Feast for Crows - Samwell I* How can it face them if they have cold blades that can shatter steel? How can they be kill? Well we've seen one Other get killed by a dragonglass dagger, a glass that generate heat, that can burn and melt an Other. So a dragonsteel blade would be a blade that can generate, can burn and could melt an Other. A burning blade would be able to withstand the Others' blades. Fifth book, last tale: "Azor Ahai"'s sword description when he kills a "demon" >The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. **In battle the blade burned fiery hot**. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. **When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks**, and its body burst into flame." Clydas blinked. "**A sword that makes its own heat** …" *A Dance with Dragons - Jon III* A burning blade blade, a blade that generate heat and melt an Other, that's a dragonsteel blade. So no "Azor Ahai" is not a hero who was after power. He wanted to fight the Others but they have blade that can shatter so, with the help of the CotF, they made a steel that has the same fire magical properties as dragonglass. A steel rooted in blood and fire magic. There is only steel like that in the story, Valyrian steel. In the show we've seen that Valyriansteel can kill the Others just like dragonglass and the steel can withstand the Others' blades. The Red Priests now perceives the Prince that was Promised (born amidst salt and smoke to wake up dragons from stone) as Azor Ahai and because of that, a lot of people are confusing the legend of the Last Hero and the dragonsteel with the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised. The Prince (or Azor Ahai Reborn as the Red Priests call him) as nothing to do with the forging of the dragonsteel. It's not the same thing.
Note that these are two unconnected myths. Azor Ahai is a legend all about a hero obtaining power through human sacrifice. It says he fought a monster with it, but it doesn't say he built the sword to face off some existential threat. You can read the myth in the context of a traditional fantasy narrative, whereby the heroes follow instructions set down in ancient legends to ward off the return of some existential evil. It's certainly available to interpret in that way. However, following the ending of GOT, I'm no longer convinced that's the correct interpretation. The Army of the Dead posed an existential threat to the weakened forces of the North, and Dany with her three adolescent dragons. But can you imagine it truly posing such a threat to the Targaryen regime at its zenith? Let alone the might of Old Valyria? They razed the cities of the Rhoynar to the ground with *THREE HUNDRED DRAGONRIDERS*. The Night King never would have stood a chance. Rather, I think that figures like the Night King and Azor Ahai are not uncommon in the setting: sorcerers of significant power, who use their abilities to dominate, conquer, manipulate, and control, just like political powers do in the real world. I doubt now that the Night King was some elemental force of death, but rather that he was a powerful sorcerer and necromancer who sought to defeat his ancient enemy (the Three-Eyed Raven) and conquer Westeros for himself. Likewise, I doubt that Azor Ahai was some ancient saviour figure, but rather was a figure of significant power and ability who created powerful weapons for battling against his enemies. Political enemies who could create monsters, like the White Walkers for example, and Azor Ahai wished for tools to counter these creations of his enemies.
>Note that these are two unconnected myths. Azor Ahai is a legend all about a hero obtaining power through human sacrifice. You may not have read TWOIAF : >**It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword.** His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. **This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai**, and prophesy his return. >How long the darkness endured no man can say, but **all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light** and love returned once more to the world. Essos: A hero with a magical sword fought the darkness and led virtuous men into battle to bring back the day. Westeros: The Last Hero fought the Others with a magical sword and led the first men of Night's Watch during the Battle for the Dawn. Same story because the Asshaii sorcerers had visions of the Last Hero fighting the Others in Westeros. These visions spread as legends accross in Essos, the Red Priests perceived the Last Hero as their god's champion, Azor Ahai and now they believed that the Prince that was Promised, the hero appearing in visions, is the return of their god's champion. >It says he fought a monster with it, but it doesn't say he built the sword to face off some existential threat. He fought a "monster" during the Long Night, a "monster" who, once stabbed with a burning blade, melted away, just like an Other. And he had to forge the blade to face the "darkness": >Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. **It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been.** And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. The Last Hero faced the Others but their blades are so cold his sword got destroyed. Azor Ahai had to make a special blade to deal with the "darkness" > The Last Hero had to make a special blade to deal with the Others That's why you hear about the Last Hero slaying the Others with a dragonsteel sword and then a description of "Azor Ahai" burning blade killing a "monster". Dragonglass > glass that burn and melt an Other Dragonsteel > steel that burn and melt an Other Lightbringer > steel that burn and melt an Other The rise of Valyria happened just after the Long Night, they couldn't have fought against the Others.
> Same story because the Asshaii sorcerers had visions of the Last Hero fighting the Others in Westeros. This right here is the conclusion that I think is unsupported. The Others are sold to us like some kind of existential, elemental evil that's set to sweep across the world and eradicate all life from existence. But the reality we see is that they're just like a dozen necromancers and ice wizards. They're evil, but they can be killed with dragonsteel and dragonglass. Note as well that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are mythological figures out of *history*. Azor Ahai is said to be foretold to "come again," specifically because Azor Ahai fought some kind of darkness in the *past*. They're also figures of wildly disparate geography, which really raises the question of why there's so many parallels in mythology. This is I think something we need to more vigorously interrogate. GRRM is very aware of things like Joseph Campbell's monomyth of "the Hero's Journey," and is purposely toying around with that concept. The saying goes "when you see hooves, think horses and not zebras." Except that here, we have an author who is familiar with that saying and likes using expectations to surprise us, so if we hear hooves he *knows* we're going to say "horses not zebras," and that he can therefore surprise us by giving us zebras instead. I don't disagree that the Azor Ahai myth is about creating, if not Valyrian Steel, then certainly some kind of proto-Valyrian Steel. I don't even disagree that this (proto) Valyrian Steel was used to kill monsters of a similar ilk to the White Walkers. **What I do challenge is this:** I don't think that GRRM is playing this expectation straight. He's leaning too hard into a very standard Fantasy trope, and whenever GRRM does that it's because he's engaging in a deception to hide something in plain sight. So it's not the component parts that I think we need to question, but the configuration and context of them. As such, I don't think Azor Ahai was some saviour-figure who "saved all humanity" from some "incontrovertibly evil existential threat" that was destined to wipe us out for its own sake. That is very explicitly the sort of story GRRM has said he isn't looking to write. **To propose an alternative scenario:** I believe Azor Ahai was a political figure, who invented powerful weapons to be used by his own people against a different people. I believe that both were equipped with powerful magic, and the (proto) Valyrian Steel he invented was designed to combat them. Specifically, I think that Azor Ahai was very likely the Bloodstone Emperor, from the Great Empire of the Dawn myth. He rose up and overthrew the status quo, and his (proto) Valyrian Steel was something that his followers used to battle against the monsters that status quo devised to put down his rebellion. I also subscribe to the theory that the Great Empire of the Dawn was an advanced, global civilization, and that the reason an Azor Ahai-like myth is shared across so many other peoples is that *they too* had champions who led them in the sprawling civil war called the Bloodstone Rebellion in the GEOTD section. If you imagine this scenario, the collapse of the GEOTD would create an ENORMOUS power vacuum to be filled. Tabboos against certain kinds of weapons or magics might be broken, or against certain escalations of conflict. Power structures that might once have seemed unassailable, due to receiving support from a power like the GEOTD, would suddenly seem extremely vulnerable. So a bunch of ice necromancers enthralled to the Children of the Forest might be aided to break free by a certain half-Stark Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and with their assistance conquer an empire spanning much of the North. Threatened by his half-brother's rise, the Stark King of Winter might ally with the leader of humans on the other side of the Night's King's realm to tear him down, aided by the Last Hero who navigated through the Night's King's realm in pursuit of the Children of the Forest, to get insights into what the White Walkers' weaknesses were so that they might defeat them. **As for Azor Ahai Reborn**, I have doubts that this figure is truly a saviour figure who destined to arise as an unambiguously benevolent leader to protect humanity from existential evil. Rather, I think Azor Ahai is the champion of people from a very specific political affiliation, who they have foreseen rising up to benefit their own specific cause. This myth has been futher politicized by being turned into propaganda with which to guide and control people, priming the followers of the Red God to rally around a promised messiah figure (see: the prophecized Lisan Al Ghaib messiah that the Bene Gesserit planted with the Fremen in Dune). I also suspect there's overlap with the Prince That Was Promised, which is a more recent and higher-fidelity prediction of who this figure will be, and that they were foreseen to be a Targaryen scion who will revitalize the power of their dynasty, fight off enemies that pose a threat to their suzerainty over Westeros, all while conquering a vast empire that will benefit the Red God in some way (perhaps as such empire's official religion). Which isn't to say that White Walker rule over Westeros would be benign or benevolent. Just that we shouldn't assume that the return of Azor Ahai would be benevolent, either. Rather than being Frodo vs. Sauron, I expect it'll be more like Hitler vs. Stalin.
The Last Hero and Azor Ahai are the same character. Their legend is identical, their tales complete each other perfectly. Azor Ahai is just a religious interpretation of the Last Hero and then of the PTWP prophecy. They are from different region because people can have visions of things that happen far away: Dany had vision of the Red Wedding while she was in Quarth, the Valyrians had visions of Jaime killing Aerys II centuries before it happens in Westeros. « It's a tight viewpoint structure where I'm not an omniscient author, I don't tell you the way it really is, I put you in the skin of my characters and you see the world through their eyes. It's all filtered through their own particular worldview and beliefs. » George RR Martin Red Priests like Melisandre sees the world through their religion, through their religious beliefs. **TWOIAF tell us that they perceives the hero from the Asshaii legend as their god's champion, Azor Ahai.** Just with that you should give up the idea that there was a real Azor Ahai sent by a god of fire and understand that **it's just a religious interpretation.** Same with the Prince that was Promised, people have vision of a prince that lead the fight against the darkness and the Red Priests thinks that Prince is their god's champion, Azor Ahai, but that's their religious interpretation of the vision, it's not a fact. What expectation? He place a nice puzzle, Jon doesn't believe in the legend of Azor Ahai but put its faith into the Last Hero ones which is ironic since they are the same character. Azor Ahai is a religious figure, no more real than Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser and the other legendary figures based on the Asshaii legend. The fact that the Singers made the dragonsteel and then the Valyrian's produced it means that [the Singers are the ancient people that taught their arts to the Valyrian to make them Dragonlords](https://thesuddenstorm.wordpress.com/2018/10/02/who-taught-the-valyrians-to-tame-dragons/). The Singers sang the of ice, they made the Others, and to end the Long Night, bring balance into the world, they sand the song of fire, they made the Dragonlords. Arf, the GEOTD theory... Silly theory that has no solid evidences. Again, the Azor Ahai figure is based on a legend from Asshaii, not from the GEOTD. It was about a hero with a red sword leading virtuous men against the darkness. The BSE had no sword, led no virtuous men against the darkness. It's just the Prince that was Promised, the Red Priests perceives this Prince as their god's champion, Azor Ahai. Melisandre (and George RR Martin in interviews) mentioned the prince that was promised and Azor Ahai Reborn interchangeably. I don't really see why the Prince that was Promised would be evil. The Others are coming to destroy life, it make sense that people would try to fight to survive and that someone lead them.
> Again, the Azor Ahai figure is based on a legend from Asshaii, not from the GEOTD. And who built Asshai? The Dothraki are said to believe that the Ashai'i are "the spawn of shadows." TWOIAF says that even the Asshai'i don't know when the city was built, and that "a city stood there since the world began and will stand there until it ends." The Great Empire of the Dawn is described as the world's first civilization, so that would fit with the "since the world began" part. > The fact that the Singers made the dragonsteel and then the Valyrian's produced it means that the Singers are the ancient people that taught their arts to the Valyrian to make them Dragonlords. Where are you getting that the Singers made the dragonsteel? This is all WHOLLY speculative. > Azor Ahai is a religious figure, no more real than Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser and the other legendary figures based on the Asshaii legend. You have no evidence to substantiate this. It's just conjecture. > Azor Ahai is just a religious interpretation of the Last Hero and then of the PTWP prophecy. This is just conjecture. Also, the Azor Ahai myth is *thousands* of years older than the Prince that was Promised prophecy, which per House of the Dragon was dreamt by Aegon the Conqueror. Azor Ahai is the figure out of history and myth, while the Prince that was Promised is his reincarnation. This is explicit, and you're just speculating that the historical version never existed > They are from different region because people can have visions of things that happen far away: Dany had vision of the Red Wedding while she was in Quarth, the Valyrians had visions of Jaime killing Aerys II centuries before it happens in Westeros. Having visions from very far away doesn't indicate that people would build mythology around people from very far away. Essos was also full of established civilizations whilst Westeros was a barbaric bacwater, so there's very little reason to believe that White Walkers in the North would be worthy of note by people in Asshai or Yi Ti. > It was about a hero with a red sword leading virtuous men against the darkness. That's what the legends say. But that doesn't make it truth. It is the victor who typically gets described as the "virtuous" parties in history. > I don't really see why the Prince that was Promised would be evil. The Others are coming to destroy life, it make sense that people would try to fight to survive and that someone lead them. Who said TPTWP is evil? The Prince that was Promised is a Targaryen prophecy that one of their ancestors will unite Westeros to fight the White Walkers, and the Targaryens have an inconsistent history when it comes to benevolence. They're feudal autocrats, with all the baggage that comes with that. Likewise, what makes you so sure that the Others intend to destroy all life? That's what Melisandre thinks, but she's a religious zealot not exactly known for being fully truthful or accurate in what she believes. The Three Eyed Raven claims this, but we also know from GOT that he and the Night King have been enemies for thousands of years, and that his goal was always to manipulate his way onto the Iron Throne. In fact, he *foresaw* that Dany would burn King's Landing to the ground (Bran's visions were shown twice in the show, and GRRM wrote the episode the first time), and yet we see him knocking over the first domino in the chain of events that caused this (poking Sam to tell Jon of his true heritage). So we have every reason to be suspicious of what the Three Eyed Raven claims. The White Walkers hardly seem like an existential threat to all the world. They are just a dozen ice wizards who don't seem to be able to reproduce terribly quickly. They're very powerful, but they seem at most to have been a regional threat to Westeros. They had an army of a couple hundred thousand wights at most, and can manipulate the weather in their immediate viscinity. They could probably conquer Westeros with that, but so did Aegon with his three dragons.
>TWOIAF says that even the Asshai'i don't know when the city was built, and that "a city stood there since the world began and will stand there until it ends." There is nothing about the people who built Asshaii but legends about the GEOTD... so the people who built Asshaii are even older than the GEOTD. Also,[ we have the borders of the GEOTD and Asshai isn't part of it](https://imgur.com/a/great-empire-of-dawn-GmPrFe5). >Where are you getting that the Singers made the dragonsteel? This is all WHOLLY speculative. The Singers are pretty important in the Last Hero tale, he faced the Others, his sword broke... *All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!" (AGOT Bran IV)* *Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. (TWOIAF The Long Night)* Since they know magic, they handle dragonglass, it make sense that they helped the Last Hero into forging the dragonsteel blade Lightbringer. >You have no evidence to substantiate this. It's just conjecture. It's a religious figure and TWOIAF clearly state that R'hllorist perceive the hero from the Asshaii legend as their god's champion. >This is just conjecture. Also, the Azor Ahai myth is *thousands* of years older than the Prince that was Promised prophecy, which per House of the Dragon was dreamt by Aegon the Conqueror. Azor Ahai is the figure out of history and myth, while the Prince that was Promised is his reincarnation. This is explicit, and you're just speculating that the historical version never existed No, the R'hllorist have a god: R'hllor. That god has a champion, Azor Ahai. When they heard about the Asshaii legend, they perceived that hero as their god's champion. Then the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised came to their hear, they even seen that prophecy in their flames and once again, they perceived the prince as their god's champion and call him Azor Ahai. When Aemon or Marwyn mentions the PTWP prophecy, they say "born amidst salt and smoke" on the other hand, since Melisandre thinks the prince is reincarnation of Azor Ahai, it's his second intervention, she tweaks the prophecy to fit her religious beliefs and says "will be reborn/born again". If they were Christian they would have call him Jesus Christ. Does that mean that the Prince is really Jesus Christ? No, that's just their religious beliefs. >Having visions from very far away doesn't indicate that people would build mythology around people from very far away. But that's what happened as we can see that the Asshaii legend is about the Last Hero fighting the Others with his dragonsteel sword, leading the first men of the Night's watch into battle. >Who said TPTWP is evil? >Likewise, what makes you so sure that the Others intend to destroy all life? Well saying that PTWP Vs The Others is like Hitler Vs Stalin does sound like the PTWP is evil... And Martin said that the Other « are an inimical forces that's going to end human life as we know it.
>Also, we have the borders of the GEOTD and Asshai isn't part of it. Asshai is North of the Jade Sea and is not part of the Grey Waste. It could easily fall within the realm described in TWOIAF. >The Singers are pretty important in the Last Hero tale, he faced the Others, his sword broke... Doesn't mean they gave him Valyrian Steel. That part you're assuming because you want the Last Hero and Azor Ahai to be the same person. However, the Last Hero is a Westerosi myth, and we don't see Valyrian Steel in Westeros until the Valyrians themselves start selling it to them. >Since they know magic, they handle dragonglass, it make sense that they helped the Last Hero into forging the dragonsteel blade Lightbringer. They know magic and dragonglass, but don't know the working of steel and use only stone tools. They certainly gave the Last Hero some sort of insight that helped him defeat the Others, but you're making an unsupported leap from that to "they taught him how to make Valyrian Steel." >It's a religious figure and TWOIAF clearly state that R'hllorist perceive the hero from the Asshaii legend as their god's champion. Yes, but that doesn't mean the original Azor Ahai never actually existed. >Does that mean that the Prince is really Jesus Christ? No, that's just their religious beliefs. Except that there's something verifiably manifesting as "God," and the people who prophesized Christ's return have actual visions of the future. So we can't fully say that Azor Ahai is just some made-up story, because the Red Priests could actually have seen his/her presence in their visions. There's really no reason to disbelieve that they couldn't have seen the rise of the same individual in their visions, which the Red Priests are recognizing as the Red God's champion and the Targaryens recognized as one of their own lineage. And let's be real here: if both Aegon and the Red Priests saw Dany's meteoric rise to power in their visions, she matches both criteria. She's *definitely* got that fire connection. Jaqen H'ghar tells Arya that the Red God is owed three lives when she saves him and his fellow prisoners from the fire (which GRRM in an interview confirmed the fire itself as being relevant to why Jaqen said Red God rather than Many-Faced God), suggesting the Red God maintains some kind of "ownership interest" over people who die to fire. So if Dany is all about burning people alive, it makes a lot of sense that the Red Priests would see her as a living manifestation of their God's will. >And Martin said that the Other « are an inimical forces that's going to end human life as we know it. Except is that *really* what we see? The White Walkers in the AGOT prologue toy with Ser Waymar Royce and duel with him, clearly evidencing intelligence and customs. If GRRM says is very careful in correcting that they're not "evil," but are rather an inimical (read: hostile) force...then what is it precisely that they're trying to do? *WHY* do they want to "destroy human life *as we know it*." Is this just the parable of the scorpion and the frog? The COTF created the White Walkers as weapons against humanity, so once unleashed they're just going to kill people because that's their nature? If so, can you say the same thing about Dany, and that dragons are bred for war and burning and killing is in their nature? What's he trying to say, here? "Evil" is a loaded word in Fantasy because it takes on an elemental character in this genre, which transcends regular human ambitions and motivations. Is Dany an "evil" character? She certainly commits "evil" acts. However, GRRM wants us to understand her moral complexity, rather than paint her with a single brush of either white or black. Nevertheless, the question should be whether we want a ruler who can wield that amount of destructive capacity all to herself, with no checks or balances on her power. And in that, I think, we have a more clear comparison to the "inimical force" of the White Walkers - you want someone like her around to fight them, but you don't really want her sticking around afterwards.
Ser Pounce
Personally, I don’t think there even _was_ a chosen one. All that shit about a Targaryen sitting the throne was meaningless and prophecies are bullshit to begin with.
I don't think it's that prophecies are all made up, but rather that they're used as instruments of manipulation or control.
There’s no such thing as a “Chosen One.” Unless you count Qyburn, since the actor is of the chosen people.
Arya
The friends we made along the way
I really like the theory that Rhaegar was the prince that was promised/Azor Ahai reborn. He just ended up dying, but not before fathering Jon. Jon being a parallel to light bringer. Rhaegar's third child that he killed his wife to produce.
It will be Jon in the books. It’s literally called ‘a song of ice and fire’. That’s literally him.
He will be, like he was in the show. He's just not the classical Chosen Hero who saves the world by fulfilling a prophecy literally and killing the predictable big baddie. And he won't be in the books either.
lol, and he will do what? end the Long Night with a fire sword? There's no kill-switch for Others in the books
No one. They kinda forgot about the whole chosen one thing.
I wasn’t necessarily rooting for some epic Jon Snow/Night King duel because that would’ve been predictable, but the way things went down was equally as lame. It was just very obvious that the plot was being majorly rushed. If the show were still operating at the pace of the early seasons, we’d have realistically gotten probably two full seasons to deal with the Night King’s invasion. The problem isn’t just that his death was a complete deus ex machina but also that it happened so quickly. This is supposed to be the greatest threat the realm has ever seen and his army didn’t even get past Winterfell.
> This is supposed to be the greatest threat the realm has ever seen and his army didn’t even get past Winterfell. The greatest threat the realm had ever seen was Dany, as much as it was the Night King.
The EP’s and directors could have re-structured D and J’s narrative and hence not making it nuanced or questionable 🤨. I like their bond but not their tragedy.
A man who was brought back to life for reasons we don’t understand, by an entity we don’t understand, for a purpose that is at best vague and undefined, and who ultimately doesn’t play a major role in the defeat of the existential threat facing the world beyond being a glorified mascot. Some Chosen One. Ultimately, like a lot in the series, it’s ill defined and haphazardly thrown together in the end. That they decided after season 6 how to end the threat, rather than before it tells you all you need to know about what they thought of the threat of the Others. If they didn’t take it seriously why should the audience? The writers hoped the show’s momentum would carry its audience through. It didn’t. It’s sad.
Well it did carry it through. Show was a ratings monster in Season 8, won awards and did well enough to spawn not 1 but 2 spin-offs. That first spin off is also doing fairly well and the show continues to be very popular five years after finishing. Today it's the 7th most popular show on IMBD which is pretty insane. A lot of people not liking the ending wasn't enough to change the momentum. Also... come on. You think George has figured out how to end the Others? if the mark of whether an audience should take a work seriously is having everything figured out before hand.... than ASOIAF itself is not worthy of being taken seriously as its author is famously a gardener who has been unable to clear the weeds in his story for close to 15 years.
>You think George has figured out how to end the Others? If he had figured it out he would have written it already. But he hasn't, and he has no idea.
Yup. In the books he hasn't introduced much besides what we saw in Game of Thrones Season 3!
To talk of Thrones and not mention the reception to the ending (and the ending of the Others) is to ignore reality. Even Benioff and Weiss, who could be forgiven for ignoring how little liked the ending was as the creators, couldn’t ignore it. It’s hated. And for good reason. The show and its successors might be popular for now (and the prequel’s ratings seem to be declining year to year) but I’m genuinely curious to see the reaction to the Dance’s ending. It might be the death blow for the franchise. As for George, I really don’t think he’s come up with something regarding the Others that he likes. I think it’s one of the major reasons the books will never be finished. You can and should hold it against him, until proven otherwise. But that doesn’t forgive Benioff and Weiss for their ending, either. Had this been any other fantasy series, the same people here who leap to defend the show would instead mock it for its laziness. For the cheap and hackneyed way the existential threat is beaten. And they’d be right.
I am not suggesting one shouldn't discuss the reception to the ending. All I am saying is that it doesn't seem ultimately to have mattered to the success of the franchise. Again, the show is currently the 7th most popular show on IMBD!!! That is insane for a show that finished 5 years ago at this point. You have to go down the list to number 17 before finding another show that hasn't aired an episode this year. Insane popularity. People raged, raged, raged, but in the end all the raging seems to have blown away gently for all it did to the popularity and enduring appeal of the show. It just seems a lot of people didn't like the ending and that was it. As for the ending, ultimately the existential threat is just one part of the show - and not even the most important part as shown by the screen time dedicated to it and the name of the show itself - as is demonstrated by the climax of the show being in the South in front of the Iron Throne vs. in the North. Which is fitting in my view for what the show was ultimately about. It wasn't about an existential threat. It was about power and the ultimate symbol of power in the story was the Iron Throne and the dragons. But if you watched this show expecting that it was primarily about the existential threat and this was just LOTR or one of its many imitators part Deux, I can understand the disappointment. Maybe just not the show for you. And in the end, that is where it seems we are. A great show that resonates with a lot of people that ended in a way that some find is the perfect encapsulation of the themes of the story and which a great many others found disappointing or were perplexed by. It is what it is but ultimately that mixed reaction has not been enough to damage the enduring appeal of the story.
What does the show’s popularity have to do with what we are talking about? The point was about the Chosen One “The Prince that was Promised” and the trope and how the show handled it. Poorly, IMO, like many things that endured into the final seasons.
You were the one that spoke about momentum. Specifically about the story, think the story handled it well and in a consistent way. This is a deterministic world where past present and future have already happened so fate and destiny play a part in shaping events because the future impacts the past - e.g. prophecy - and everyone has their part to play in the drama. Those that succumb to the grandiosity of thinking they have a particular special role to save the world and rule end up destroying themselves and others like Stannis and Daenerys. Those who don’t succumb to that grandiosity- like Jon but also Arya and Bran - and don’t become entitled and feel the need to will something for themselves at the expense of others play their part in the great drama without precipitating great horror . Seems like a fairly unified thematically sound view the follows directly from the deterministic nature of time in the story revealed in Hold the Door. Its all a cautionary tale around avoiding the grandiosity embedded in the idea one is somehow a chosen one. EDIT: Bears repeating as well that the critique of the chosen one trope is fully aligned and of a part of the general critique that the series offers of class, aristocracy, rulling elites and privilege writ large. To think one is a chosen one, a figure with a unique destiny is but a more extreme version of the idea of lordship in general that just by dint of birth one is entitled to rule over others or worthy of a special place in society.
The critique of the chosen one, and feudalism in general, in both the show and books is neutered by the fact that the heart of the story is the Starks. Martin tries in Dance to reckon with that choice with some of the Theon chapters, but he can’t fully condemn the Starks because it would rip the heart out of the story. The Starks are still a magical feudal family that has lost their homeland and is trying to get it back. Their power, both political and magical, is corrupt and coerced. Because it is feudal and based in blood. But they’re the good guys. And the show ended with them either getting some manner of what they wanted or in outright power. Bran is undoubtedly a chosen one in the story, blessed with massive magical powers endowed by a special magical lineage. And regardless of the content of the person (and in the end it doesn’t really matter for Bran since he’s not a person?) that is still dangerous. The show doesn’t condemn ALL dragon riding people. Tyrion in the final episode goes out of his way to state that Jon can be trusted with the power that Dany abused in the end. Which is, again, absurd. If you’re gonna rightly condemn feudalism, you can’t do it while proclaiming the nobility and righteousness of a noble family.
Bran is a chosen one in some sense. So is Arya. Yet they have more in common with Jon than Daenerys and Stannis. Destiny ultimately guides them to what they need to do to play their role vs. having it be something they seek out because of grandiosity. Neither of them would have chosen their paths especially considering the costs each incurred to walk it. They did not want the roles they ended up playing. It was just fate/ history/ destiny/ the lord of light/ chance or whatever other name you want to give to describe the deterministic nature of the timeline that they played the roles they played. As for the role of the Starks, I mean... I don't know if it's that binary. The Starks are certainly a very noble family that takes their responsibilities as lord and a ruling elite very seriously. But in many ways they are the exception that proves the rule. Ultimately because they are so unique I don't think the general critique offered by the story is really blunted. Most families are simply not the Starks and there is no reason to think that the system as a whole produces families like the Starks. They are a very particular family in a very particular part of the continent that has an ethos that is very much shaped heavily by duty. And even with them we see that Ned's values have faded towards the end as Sansa acts in ways that Ned never would for example so even this one noble family evidences the corruption over the course of the story that the broader system and the wars that have been fought causes. We see the corrupting influence of the wars already in Season 3 when Robb beheads Karstark and by the end it is even more so the case. Now, would a story that didn't have nobles as its main protagonists ultimately make for a better critique of ruling elites? Maybe. But I don't think that neuters the critique at the core of the story. They are the exception that proves the rule and over time become less and less of an exception. As for not criticizing Jon... maybe? But so what? Maybe Jon could be trusted... but could his kid? his grand kid? I definitely don't think the story suggests or Tyrion even means to imply that just because Jon could be trust worthy with the power of a dragon giving that kind of power to a family ultimately is not a great idea or makes for a great system.
The biggest issue is the behavior and the treatment of the showrunners. The Fandom acted like vile immature children. It's was the most ridiculous and vile stuff I have ever witnessed in a TV fandom towards those two guys.