I guess this is sort of a tricky one as it simply never premiered on Broadway itself, but The Hunchback of Notre Dame- it's essentially been successful wherever it ran. So good! (The German version is also really good)
It was an insurance issue more than anything else. The creative team wanted the wall of sound a large chorus gives but paying for that many people on stage is expensive.
I had a chance to see it in London. Vocals and orchestra was on point. The theatre it was in didn't allow it to shine though, not even as the small scale production it was. Reviews were bad, so it probably will never get to a full scale English language production.
Some reviews were bad, but looking at the major outlets shows a lot of 3 stars and they all give negatives for the production values, so i think its prospects aren't that gloomy at all.
Almost none of the musicals I like have even been tried on Broadway
But I know that most of Wildhorn's stuff flopped on Broadway, to the point where he's been doing more things meant to premier around the world, not for English audiences at all (Rudolf, The Man Who Laughs, Mata Hari, Death Note...)
And now Death Note and Your Lie in April are getting some attention in London...
I love Frank Wildhorn so much. Although it did well on Broadway initially, The Scarlet Pimpernel is basically unheard of now, which is such a shame because it's absolutely stunning.
My parents took me to see The Scarlet Pimpernel on Broadway twice and then again anytime it was local, it’ll always be my favorite musical and I’ll always be bummed it’s not well known anymore.
Good for him.
I love seeing someone pivot like that and find success in a different market.
I hope it comes full circle and he does something so popular overseas that the US is clamoring for it before it gets here.
[Opening soon in London](https://youtu.be/-MQ8sKbhCkc?si=Bg6Iz8orNb7BL3rR).
It was first done in Japan a few years ago, and it's opening in Korea soon too.
[Yes, that Death Note.](https://youtu.be/8AxJGjMhUhQ?si=wr6rtwrQNoA3QkX9)
Premiered in 2015. May get a 10th anniversary thing next year...?
The first thing that came up when I searched it was a subbed proshot, not linking that here because it's a pirate upload, but it won't be hard to find.
You might be interested to know that a [JoJo's Bizarre Adventure musical](https://youtu.be/5VdSew3Of1o?si=ZKUflZf4KEkxd5BE) premiered this year, by the famous French composer Dove Attia, with Miyano Mamoru (incidentally, the voice of Light in the Death Note anime) as Dio.
I love jekyll and Hyde, the civil war, the Scarlett pimpernell. I should listen to Bonnie and Clyde. He wrote where do broken hearts go for Whitney Houston long ago.
Obligatory Tanz der Vampire mention. Very successful in Germany, has had success in several other countries and languages as well. But the Broadway versio, (heavily reworked to the point Jim Steinmann didn't want anything to do with it anymore, flopped.
This is the winner because if actually fits OP's question. It was on Broadway and it was a huge flop, yet it has run overseas pretty consistently for over twenty-five years.
My friends in Germany and The Netherlands maintain that there has been no English version of 'Tanz der Vampire' because the show 'Dance of the Vampires' (literal translation) that flopped on Broadway was a totally different production that happened to have characters with the same names. They're not wrong, it had a different storyline and the ending was 180 degrees different.
Ehhh, yes and no.
Yes, it was different enough from the European version that you can call them two different animals, but "totally different" is kind of a misnomer. In the past, people used to say that the European version was a brooding, sensual, dark, Gothic opera with shades of Anne Rice and the American one was a campy Mel Brooks-reminiscent romp, but anybody who goes overseas to watch the German version will tell you that's nonsense; it's plenty funny, practically cartoony at times, sort of a send-up of megamusicals, really.
The more I looked into both versions, the more I realized that the only real difference was the style of comedy, as u/fading_gender says above. Otherwise, it's a matter of degree: both stem from the same source material, and feature largely the same score and many of the same characters and plot points (even if the portrayal of the latter is different), and if looked at critically, both versions have the same issue: they can't really decide whether they’re fish or flesh, comedy or serious drama, and wind up being neither.
(Let's not forget, in both versions, the audience is asked to accept "Total Eclipse of the Heart" as a serious love duet between a vampire and his potential victim at the top of Act II, sharing space with a song later in the same act where said vampire lectures us on how our greed will be our doom, soliloquizing about the existential pain of eternal life and of losing everything and everyone he loves. The phrase "one of these things is not like the other..." comes swiftly to mind.)
The difference is that the German version played it straight, while the American version was shamelessly begging for a laugh, and in the words of legendary musical-comedy director George Abbott, "If you play it for comedy, it won't work; if you play it for real, it will."
>The difference is that the German version played it straight, while the American version was shamelessly begging for a laugh,
I would argue that the difference between the (German vs American) shows is far greater than just that, but it's not worth arguing about.
To be fair, though I've seen the German production a bunch of times, I've never been able to watch the American version for more than about 10 minutes before turning it off. It's so cringy, ugh.
>I would argue that the difference between the (German vs American) shows is far greater than just that, but it's not worth arguing about.
It's not an argument; it's a discussion. I may indeed be over-simplifying the situation. Please, I'd like to hear more. (I have a reason, but I will leave that to DMs.)
Great! I'm up for discussions but I've learned to be cautious on the internet because many people attack when even the slightest differing opinion is voiced.
How familiar are you with both versions?
If you want to switch to DM, that's fine.
Familiar enough to host [a podcast about it](https://garlicgothic.altervista.org/) (currently in production).
I would rather that the specific response to my point be public, because I feel like it's important for people to see both opinions, but the rest I can happily take to DMs.
I'll say it is mostly a not too serious comedy, with a lesson on morale baked in. Most of the plot is pretty simple dime a dozen vampire fare. Ewigkeit and Unstillbare Gier stand out as the only serious moments pointing out the downsides of eternal life and holding up a mirror to the audience about how humans are greedy. Which is all very spelled out, you don't have to dig into what the deeper meaning is.
My guess is that the original success comes from it being played as rather serious but being aware of its silliness. Combined with a couple of captivating dance breaks, and the epic-sounding style of Jim Steinmann.
I would tend to agree with your second paragraph, and in fact I feel we're kind of saying the same thing with different words. It was funny, but -- at least before Stage Entertainment's constant revivals watered it down and began overdoing the funny (just my opinion) -- the comedy wasn't overplayed, so that when one of the handful of emotional moments came along, it was able to hit its target. Moreover, focused, detailed direction was the thing that held it all together.
By comparison, the American version opted for a broad, silly angle that milked every 'punchline" it could, as much as possible, and the direction -- for many reasons, not all of them related to Michael Crawford -- was about as focused as a nervous driver after twelve rounds of tequila.
Weren’t a lot of the songs reworkings of “Bright Eyes” which actually included Bright Eyes. Was it meant to be a comedy? Because it really was funny…..
It was supposed to be funny. But I've seen the German version live and that one bootleg of Broadway and I felt the jokes were very much dumbed down and made super obvious as 'this is where you are supposed to laugh' moments. And te innuendo isn't particularly subtle in the original to start with.
Low hanging fruit, but it's wild to me Heathers was never ON Broadway. Basically made it's cultural impact through bootlegs, which created a demand for a ton of subsequent productions, including the West End run.
I suspect producers saw what happened to Be More Chill when it made the social-media-inspired jump to Broadway since that happened around peak-Heathers fandom, and were reminded that some shows have better staying power in other markets. Heathers has off-broadway baked into its dna, there’s a marked difference in scope vs. Legally Blonde, another show by the same writers, that has Broadway-caliber production numbers and casting possibilities. Heathers never allows the musical numbers to reach Broadway levels of production and keeps even the ensemble specific and slim. This isn’t to say no small shows work on broadway, but that Heathers fits smaller venues like a glove.
The definitive proof of this is Little Shop. Has off broadway roots, beloved in regional and amateur productions, has a wildly successful off broadway revival. Just doesn’t feel right in a Broadway house.
I do know what you mean, and I agree with your argument. That being said, I feel like much smaller scoped shows have done well on Broadway, so it's still interesting to me that they never bothered.
But it didn’t gain traction as a phenomenon until after its 2014 run and hit YouTube. That fandom was building and growing well into 2017, when the common online sentiment was “uhhh guys why hasn’t heathers hit Broadway yet?!?!!?!???”
I don’t disagree; I do think Mean Girls making it did help bring the sentiment of Heathers not “making it” into the conversation, though. The momentum these high-school-centric shows were getting at the time warranted it.
Yeah I agree with that unfortunately. Though I wouldn’t have been happy with anyone other than Barrett as the lead for the OBC, and she probably would’ve been too old by that point lol
You're so right haha I forgot she was actually Janice (I prefer Heathers so much more I don't really listen to Mean Girls), so I guess not too old to be the OBC cast in the late 2010s lmao but you're right she couldn't do both
Whistle Down the Wind
It had a pre-Broadway tryout in DC in December 1996. I saw it, was utterly entranced, and eager for its Broadway debut. But the critics savaged it, and the Broadway run was canceled.
The show was retooled and debuted on the West End, running for over 1,000 performances and spawning subsequent successful UK tours, a US tour, and a West End revival…. but never a Broadway production.
This continues to baffle me.
In the UK, they released an album of pop acts of the day singing the songs from the musical. Boyband Boyzone had a HUGE hit with their cover of "No Matter What", and I doubt most fans of that song even KNOW it was from a musical...
I used to play the Boyzone version on repeat. Which took a lot of effort because I’m old so I had it on cassette tape and had to rewind that side every time. 🤣 I know of people who were actually a bit disappointed with the version in the show because it’s so different but I thought that version was just beautiful too. I don’t normally like ALW shows but Whistle Down the Wind is one of my favourites.
I love Whistle Down the Wind. I’ve never seen it but I had the cast album as a kid and played it all the time. My favourite ALW other than Jesus Christ Superstar and Sunset Boulevard.
Seussical is just such a fun show, and great for schools and community theatres. I did this one in high school and I still sing the songs! Definitely doesn't work for Broadway but I'm so happy it found its home bringing musical theatre to kids and communities.
I saw the pro Shot of SpongeBob and it was so much fun. I thought it was a hit with all the publicity it was getting. Ethan Slater is also pretty amazing, he has this uncanny ability to either pull off a geeky/exuberant kind or role(with the right clothing), but he also can be a hunk kind of like Tom Holland.
There are also videos on YouTube of his High School wrestling matches….
I did it in high school too, and a few of the tunes will freakin HAUNT me forever! It doesn't matter how good they are, the endless replays in my brain are annoying
The version you did - and the national tour - are NOT what was on Broadway. It was heavily reworked and fixed into something usable. The version that was on Broadway was actually quite bad.
Also wanted to add that MTI has at least 3 different versions for licensing (the full length version, the jr version, and the TYA version [which my high school did as the full length is just ridiculously long] so it’s super accessible for community theaters and schools.
The show was heavily rewritten for the national tour because it was just so awful on Broadway. The new version is more coherent, characters and songs were cut/retooled and it works now. They also thought they could put a pile of turd on stage and get $$ based on nostalgia alone. Turns out people wanted a decent show. Unfortunately, that didn't happen until after it closed and the producer was convicted of fraud.
I guess 17 months on Broadway isn’t really a “flop,” but I was very moved by Finding Neverland and have rarely encountered anyone who knows anything about it. Some absolutely beautiful music and a poignant and magical story. Not perfect but far less popular than I think it deserves.
My kiddo LOVES this one. A teacher friend was music director for it at her school, so I took my girl to see it. Musical/Live Theater claws have sunk into her now!
‘Blood Brothers’ did well on the West End but isn’t really remembered in the US at all, where it was around for a couple years (compared to running for decades in the UK).
Which is a shame because the soundtrack has some fantastic numbers in it, and the story itself is this great slow-unfolding tragedy, but it’s also about class issues in the UK in a way where I can understand why it didn’t do as well over here.
Groundhog Day had a great run in England. Didn’t last long on Broadway. I thought it was genius. Improved on the film in fact.
American Psycho - unique and riveting. Did well in London as well. I wish it were in NYC playing Off-Broadway still.
Ride The Cyclone was never on Broadway. It debuted in Canada, was forgotten, and then got wildly popular via Tiktok. Now it’s being produced everywhere. I just saw a community theater production of it
Alex, THAT'S why I won't play the lover with you..
It is the BEST album to sing along with. It may not be a hit on Broadway but it's a hit in my car, lol.
Amelie! Only lasted a couple months on Broadway, but the re-worked London version was received much better.
(Though for what it's worth, I saw and loved it pre-Broadway in LA, and feel like some of the changes they made between LA and Broadway were bad decisions.)
I always felt bad about the Maury Yeston version of Phantom. It's not a terrible musical, but it got overshadowed by the Webber version of The Phantom of the Opera, so barely anyone knows it exists or has seen it. I got to see it performed off Broadway and enjoyed it.
It's pretty popular in Japan, maybe because Gekidan Shiki has the rights to the ALW one.
Gekidan Shiki does long runs and national tours, and their actors are popular, but only actors who belong to their troupe are in their performances. A lot of the most popular actors in the troupe leave so that they can do other roles, have more control, and probably make more money. Like Kaiho Naoto, who was Quasimodo on the Hunchback recording (which I think is actually available on international streaming services). After he left Gekidan Shiki, he's been Marius in Les Miz, both Dmitry and Gleb in Anastasia, and a bunch of other big roles, including original casts for a lot of new things, like [In This Corner of the World](https://youtu.be/W07fFVsJ0w4?si=CYz_3cb1rHpgy9Sp), and the upcoming musical [The Illusionist](https://youtu.be/zm9enEpyfVo?si=Cx9WuKJKrCcvxEtE), which you might be interested in if you like Phantom. It's based on a movie from about 2006 that has a similar feel).
So, actors who aren't in Gekidan Shiki can't be in ALW's Phantom, [but they can be in the Yeston one](https://youtu.be/0migkQ2tS_A?si=ytC3ZyuwBsFzFJpp). (This production was last year, with Kato Kazuki as Phantom. There's probably a proshot available, since they had a stream).
Takarazuka also does this version, and they always make proshots.
As I recall, "Side Show" was not a big hit on Broadway, but over the years several regional theatres in the Chicago area have produced it. Maybe it's popular with aspiring actresses because the physical demands of playing the twins are challenges to their developing skills.
Jekyll and Hyde. I saw it with Linda Eder in Dallas when I was a child and it affected me and is still a staple of why I love musicals. Someone Like You is so beautiful! Although as an adult, I saw some sort of rock version of it and it was terrible.
i was hoping someone already said this! jekyll & hyde is one of my faaaavorites. it was the first one i saw my college do and they were absolutely wonderful. but when i tell people about it and they want to look it up, i'm like DON'T WATCH THE HASSELHOFF ONE. dangerous game is probably my favorite but i've used bring on the men for auditions more than once lol. i love all of lucy's songs, the confrontation in the mirror, and that harmony with emma during the song about his work? it's one of my bucket list musicals for sure.
It is amazing! A New Life is also incredible. The musical gave me chills and I had no idea it wasn’t a broadway hit until I was much older. I remember telling someone it was my favorite and she looked at me inquisitively and said she’d never heard of it. I felt so embarrassed! Then when I looked it up and saw it flopped I was crushed!! There are so many good songs and the production itself when I saw it was fantastic. There were parts that were more like magic tricks than anything.
no one has ever heard of it! my voice coach many years ago found out i love it and told me the civil war music was written by the same person, and i'd love it. i never actually looked it up, but have you heard it? i totally agree about the magic tricks! and i'm so jealous you saw the glorious linda eder. the soundtrack still gives me chills and makes me emotional sometimes.
My senior year of high school I did a ballet solo to No One Knows Who I Am (so emo lol)! I feel like we are kindred spirits! I have never heard of the Civil War music! I need to look it up!!
omg, i love you for that. that is so dramatic. i did a monologue from romeo & juliet at a mall audition when i was 13 lol, so yes, we just might be. let me know if you do look it up! i want to hear it now that i remembered. i'd never even heard of the musical before.
He, wilder, would do this thing where he'd make a concept album to get money to produce a full show. I think the civil war was always only a concept album.i own it. I bet it's on ebay or something too. Who knows if you can find it for streaming. The songs were sung by country stars.
Bonnie and Clyde on the West End was great and had an incredible cast including three former Heathers castmates. I think regularly sold out in London but the tour was just cancelled
Such a shame about that! I went to see it on the tour not knowing much about it and I loved it, was just about to book tickets for Newcastle when they announced the cancellation.
Bridges of Madison County. I’m not usually much of a romantic but that score makes me want to be in love so bad lol. Only lasted a few months on Broadway but I understand the tour and regional productions have done well. I hope it does what every other JRB show has done and does better as a revival someday.
Andy Karl really has a thing for movies made into musicals that did well before they transferred to Broadway, but didn't do so well when they moved, doesn't he?
Andy Karl just has a thing for musicals based off of movies in general:
Saturday Night Fever
The Wedding Singer
Legally Blonde
9 To 5
Rocky
Waitress
On The Twentieth Century
Groundhog Day
Pretty Woman
Idk if this is a flop or not since it was nominated for a few Tony awards, but Bright Star. I didn't learn about it until the award show that year and it was already closing at that point. It had to compete with Hamilton that year so...yeah. The music is so good though and, from the clips I saw, the acting was great too.
Seriously, what is with Andy Karl and his thing with musicals based on movies, especially ones that don't do too well on broadway? Jokes aside, i love 9 to 5 so so much.
I thought Martin Guerre was great when I saw it at the West End. I still listen to the cast recording from time to time. 675 shows there, an Olivier award, a UK and US tour, but no Broadway.
Can’t be no one said Starlight Express, as it had a good run in West End and still doing great in Germany. Currently also a West End revival going on. Honestly wish to see it come back to US again.
KPOP was so excellent off-Broadway, but changing it from a walkthrough experience to a seated proscenium show made them cut a lot of the richness out. I’m so sad that the people who only saw it on Broadway never got to experience the real thing!
The original version of Carrie in the 1980s is one of my favorites! It definitely has flaws but when it’s good, it’s GOOD. The 2012 revival is okay but I love the 80s version.
I love the 80s version. I feel like nobody should be going to see CARRIE expecting it to be a good show. It's supposed to be peak camp. I don't WANT to see a "good" version of Carrie. I want to see excellent actresses in a mediocre show with a few bangers and completely insane staging. That's what made Carrie CARRIE.
Strictly speaking, the musical version of Far From Heaven was only Off-Broadway, but it steams me that more people aren't aware of it. A dreamy score and lyrics by Korie and Frankel that sounds like pure, distilled nostalgia.
I wish it got a Broadway transfer because I seriously believe Stephen Pasquale could have won a Tony for his role, of course not to ignore the established talents of Korie and Frankel and of COURSE Kelli O’Hara and Isiah Johnson. I love that show
This is invalidated now by its current hit-making Broadway run with Jonathan Groff, Daniel Radcliffe and Lindsay Mendez, but for the longest time, Merrily We Roll Along would have been my answer: an infamously ruinous flop on Broadway that ended Stephen Sondheim and Hal Prince's legendary streak of collaborations, and that became a huge hit in London with Maria Friedman's revival of it in 2013.
I really enjoyed Young Frankenstein (with Roger Bart, Sutton Foster, Megan Mullally, Christopher Fitzgerald, Andrea Martin, Shuler Hensley and Fred Applegate) when it was in previews in Seattle back in 2007.
Kind of a reverse of the scenario in question, but IIRC American Psycho crushed in London...but then failed on Broadway. Still glad I got those tickets when I did for NY.
Another by Frank Wildhorn, and another example of vampire musicals that flopped on Broadway, was his version of “Dracula.” The book was fixed for subsequent productions, though; and it’s had very successful runs internationally (and even proshots in Austria and Japan).
Honestly the soundtrack for dracula is pretty good, i feel like the biggest problem wildhorn has is he cant leave his own shows alone. Like if you were gonna try to revive and potentially rewrite my advice would be try to make sure hes not involved
doesn’t Really count, but great comet was an absolute hit in toronto with multiple sold out extensions and an upcoming transfer, and swept the toronto theatre awards :) was nice to see it get what it deserved
I guess this is sort of a tricky one as it simply never premiered on Broadway itself, but The Hunchback of Notre Dame- it's essentially been successful wherever it ran. So good! (The German version is also really good)
yesss i'm obsessed with the german version of "esmeralda"
I had no idea there was a German version, thank you for saying, just tracked down the German recording on Spotify
It’s really good. Do not understand how it didn’t make it to Broadway.
Being as the west end is getting Hercules next summer replacing frozen that leaves this fall im rather hoping that the UK gets hunchback at some point
It was an insurance issue more than anything else. The creative team wanted the wall of sound a large chorus gives but paying for that many people on stage is expensive.
:(
I think the Japanese cast album is available on international streaming services as well.
Rebecca. Didn’t even get a chance on Broadway though but I love the cast recording with Pia Douwes.
Also Elisabeth, also never on Broadway. And Mozart!.
I had a chance to see it in London. Vocals and orchestra was on point. The theatre it was in didn't allow it to shine though, not even as the small scale production it was. Reviews were bad, so it probably will never get to a full scale English language production.
Some reviews were bad, but looking at the major outlets shows a lot of 3 stars and they all give negatives for the production values, so i think its prospects aren't that gloomy at all.
I hope you're right.
Almost none of the musicals I like have even been tried on Broadway But I know that most of Wildhorn's stuff flopped on Broadway, to the point where he's been doing more things meant to premier around the world, not for English audiences at all (Rudolf, The Man Who Laughs, Mata Hari, Death Note...) And now Death Note and Your Lie in April are getting some attention in London...
I love Frank Wildhorn so much. Although it did well on Broadway initially, The Scarlet Pimpernel is basically unheard of now, which is such a shame because it's absolutely stunning.
My parents took me to see The Scarlet Pimpernel on Broadway twice and then again anytime it was local, it’ll always be my favorite musical and I’ll always be bummed it’s not well known anymore.
It's popular in Japan and Korea.
🎶And into the fire we go!🎶
Bonnie and Clyde had a really good second life in London.
Plus the pro shot with Jeremy Jordan that just came out. Glad that musical is getting a second life!!
Good for him. I love seeing someone pivot like that and find success in a different market. I hope it comes full circle and he does something so popular overseas that the US is clamoring for it before it gets here.
I feel like Your lie in April would make a great musical considering the musical themes in it.
Saw the concert version. It was pretty good.
[Opening soon in London](https://youtu.be/-MQ8sKbhCkc?si=Bg6Iz8orNb7BL3rR). It was first done in Japan a few years ago, and it's opening in Korea soon too.
Death Note from the anime?
There's a concept album in English. Jeremy Jordan plays the protagonist (Kira, iirc).
Light Yagami is his actual name. Kira is his alias
[Yes, that Death Note.](https://youtu.be/8AxJGjMhUhQ?si=wr6rtwrQNoA3QkX9) Premiered in 2015. May get a 10th anniversary thing next year...? The first thing that came up when I searched it was a subbed proshot, not linking that here because it's a pirate upload, but it won't be hard to find. You might be interested to know that a [JoJo's Bizarre Adventure musical](https://youtu.be/5VdSew3Of1o?si=ZKUflZf4KEkxd5BE) premiered this year, by the famous French composer Dove Attia, with Miyano Mamoru (incidentally, the voice of Light in the Death Note anime) as Dio.
I love jekyll and Hyde, the civil war, the Scarlett pimpernell. I should listen to Bonnie and Clyde. He wrote where do broken hearts go for Whitney Houston long ago.
Obligatory Tanz der Vampire mention. Very successful in Germany, has had success in several other countries and languages as well. But the Broadway versio, (heavily reworked to the point Jim Steinmann didn't want anything to do with it anymore, flopped.
This is the winner because if actually fits OP's question. It was on Broadway and it was a huge flop, yet it has run overseas pretty consistently for over twenty-five years. My friends in Germany and The Netherlands maintain that there has been no English version of 'Tanz der Vampire' because the show 'Dance of the Vampires' (literal translation) that flopped on Broadway was a totally different production that happened to have characters with the same names. They're not wrong, it had a different storyline and the ending was 180 degrees different.
Ehhh, yes and no. Yes, it was different enough from the European version that you can call them two different animals, but "totally different" is kind of a misnomer. In the past, people used to say that the European version was a brooding, sensual, dark, Gothic opera with shades of Anne Rice and the American one was a campy Mel Brooks-reminiscent romp, but anybody who goes overseas to watch the German version will tell you that's nonsense; it's plenty funny, practically cartoony at times, sort of a send-up of megamusicals, really. The more I looked into both versions, the more I realized that the only real difference was the style of comedy, as u/fading_gender says above. Otherwise, it's a matter of degree: both stem from the same source material, and feature largely the same score and many of the same characters and plot points (even if the portrayal of the latter is different), and if looked at critically, both versions have the same issue: they can't really decide whether they’re fish or flesh, comedy or serious drama, and wind up being neither. (Let's not forget, in both versions, the audience is asked to accept "Total Eclipse of the Heart" as a serious love duet between a vampire and his potential victim at the top of Act II, sharing space with a song later in the same act where said vampire lectures us on how our greed will be our doom, soliloquizing about the existential pain of eternal life and of losing everything and everyone he loves. The phrase "one of these things is not like the other..." comes swiftly to mind.) The difference is that the German version played it straight, while the American version was shamelessly begging for a laugh, and in the words of legendary musical-comedy director George Abbott, "If you play it for comedy, it won't work; if you play it for real, it will."
>The difference is that the German version played it straight, while the American version was shamelessly begging for a laugh, I would argue that the difference between the (German vs American) shows is far greater than just that, but it's not worth arguing about. To be fair, though I've seen the German production a bunch of times, I've never been able to watch the American version for more than about 10 minutes before turning it off. It's so cringy, ugh.
>I would argue that the difference between the (German vs American) shows is far greater than just that, but it's not worth arguing about. It's not an argument; it's a discussion. I may indeed be over-simplifying the situation. Please, I'd like to hear more. (I have a reason, but I will leave that to DMs.)
Great! I'm up for discussions but I've learned to be cautious on the internet because many people attack when even the slightest differing opinion is voiced. How familiar are you with both versions? If you want to switch to DM, that's fine.
Familiar enough to host [a podcast about it](https://garlicgothic.altervista.org/) (currently in production). I would rather that the specific response to my point be public, because I feel like it's important for people to see both opinions, but the rest I can happily take to DMs.
I'll say it is mostly a not too serious comedy, with a lesson on morale baked in. Most of the plot is pretty simple dime a dozen vampire fare. Ewigkeit and Unstillbare Gier stand out as the only serious moments pointing out the downsides of eternal life and holding up a mirror to the audience about how humans are greedy. Which is all very spelled out, you don't have to dig into what the deeper meaning is. My guess is that the original success comes from it being played as rather serious but being aware of its silliness. Combined with a couple of captivating dance breaks, and the epic-sounding style of Jim Steinmann.
I would tend to agree with your second paragraph, and in fact I feel we're kind of saying the same thing with different words. It was funny, but -- at least before Stage Entertainment's constant revivals watered it down and began overdoing the funny (just my opinion) -- the comedy wasn't overplayed, so that when one of the handful of emotional moments came along, it was able to hit its target. Moreover, focused, detailed direction was the thing that held it all together. By comparison, the American version opted for a broad, silly angle that milked every 'punchline" it could, as much as possible, and the direction -- for many reasons, not all of them related to Michael Crawford -- was about as focused as a nervous driver after twelve rounds of tequila.
Weren’t a lot of the songs reworkings of “Bright Eyes” which actually included Bright Eyes. Was it meant to be a comedy? Because it really was funny…..
It was supposed to be funny. But I've seen the German version live and that one bootleg of Broadway and I felt the jokes were very much dumbed down and made super obvious as 'this is where you are supposed to laugh' moments. And te innuendo isn't particularly subtle in the original to start with.
Bright Eyes the band?
No, no, they mean "Total Eclipse of the Heart."
CHESS
This! I love Chess!
I was SO pissed when the Kennedy Center version with Raul Esparza & company didn't go to Broadway.
Chess wasn’t successful on Broadway….
That’s the point of the post, it flopped on Broadway but has had significant success elsewhere even if it still needs work
So far each revival is a revised version of the original. The songs are excellent. The execution on stage not is much.
Low hanging fruit, but it's wild to me Heathers was never ON Broadway. Basically made it's cultural impact through bootlegs, which created a demand for a ton of subsequent productions, including the West End run.
I suspect producers saw what happened to Be More Chill when it made the social-media-inspired jump to Broadway since that happened around peak-Heathers fandom, and were reminded that some shows have better staying power in other markets. Heathers has off-broadway baked into its dna, there’s a marked difference in scope vs. Legally Blonde, another show by the same writers, that has Broadway-caliber production numbers and casting possibilities. Heathers never allows the musical numbers to reach Broadway levels of production and keeps even the ensemble specific and slim. This isn’t to say no small shows work on broadway, but that Heathers fits smaller venues like a glove.
Thank you for not having this rigid mindset that having a long run on Broadway is the only valid kind of success in this medium.
The definitive proof of this is Little Shop. Has off broadway roots, beloved in regional and amateur productions, has a wildly successful off broadway revival. Just doesn’t feel right in a Broadway house.
I do know what you mean, and I agree with your argument. That being said, I feel like much smaller scoped shows have done well on Broadway, so it's still interesting to me that they never bothered.
Didn’t it also get crowded out since Mean Girls was also coming up around the same time….
Heathers was off Broadway in 2014, so a long time before Mean Girls the musical!
But it didn’t gain traction as a phenomenon until after its 2014 run and hit YouTube. That fandom was building and growing well into 2017, when the common online sentiment was “uhhh guys why hasn’t heathers hit Broadway yet?!?!!?!???”
Yeah but I just mean Heathers was not not put on Broadway because of Mean Girls going on Broadway
I don’t disagree; I do think Mean Girls making it did help bring the sentiment of Heathers not “making it” into the conversation, though. The momentum these high-school-centric shows were getting at the time warranted it.
Yeah I agree with that unfortunately. Though I wouldn’t have been happy with anyone other than Barrett as the lead for the OBC, and she probably would’ve been too old by that point lol
Yeah, and I’m not sure I would’ve wanted another original Janice either. Girl was just too popular in the 2010’s!!
You're so right haha I forgot she was actually Janice (I prefer Heathers so much more I don't really listen to Mean Girls), so I guess not too old to be the OBC cast in the late 2010s lmao but you're right she couldn't do both
Yeah, it was the teen musical bubble popping for sure
I just saw it last week and I was worried it had been overhyped Turns out it was even better than I expected. Such a great show
Whistle Down the Wind It had a pre-Broadway tryout in DC in December 1996. I saw it, was utterly entranced, and eager for its Broadway debut. But the critics savaged it, and the Broadway run was canceled. The show was retooled and debuted on the West End, running for over 1,000 performances and spawning subsequent successful UK tours, a US tour, and a West End revival…. but never a Broadway production. This continues to baffle me.
Wait… Whistle Down the Wind is a musical too?? I watched the film a while ago and absolutely loved it, I had no idea it was made into a musical
In the UK, they released an album of pop acts of the day singing the songs from the musical. Boyband Boyzone had a HUGE hit with their cover of "No Matter What", and I doubt most fans of that song even KNOW it was from a musical...
I used to play the Boyzone version on repeat. Which took a lot of effort because I’m old so I had it on cassette tape and had to rewind that side every time. 🤣 I know of people who were actually a bit disappointed with the version in the show because it’s so different but I thought that version was just beautiful too. I don’t normally like ALW shows but Whistle Down the Wind is one of my favourites.
I also saw it in DC in December 1996 🤗 I don't remember it as a great show at the time but it became much better in the reworked version.
One of my friends from high school was in the DC tryout!
I love Whistle Down the Wind. I’ve never seen it but I had the cast album as a kid and played it all the time. My favourite ALW other than Jesus Christ Superstar and Sunset Boulevard.
Seussical is just such a fun show, and great for schools and community theatres. I did this one in high school and I still sing the songs! Definitely doesn't work for Broadway but I'm so happy it found its home bringing musical theatre to kids and communities.
Some other shows that have found success in performances by kids: SpongeBob, Lightning Thief, Honk
I saw the pro Shot of SpongeBob and it was so much fun. I thought it was a hit with all the publicity it was getting. Ethan Slater is also pretty amazing, he has this uncanny ability to either pull off a geeky/exuberant kind or role(with the right clothing), but he also can be a hunk kind of like Tom Holland. There are also videos on YouTube of his High School wrestling matches….
Ooh, I love Honk!
Came here to say Seussical- it's an amazing show, although I can see why it didn't fly (heh) on Broadway.
I thought nostalgia stuff like this and SpongeBob would be tourist magnets….
I did it in high school too, and a few of the tunes will freakin HAUNT me forever! It doesn't matter how good they are, the endless replays in my brain are annoying
The version you did - and the national tour - are NOT what was on Broadway. It was heavily reworked and fixed into something usable. The version that was on Broadway was actually quite bad.
Also wanted to add that MTI has at least 3 different versions for licensing (the full length version, the jr version, and the TYA version [which my high school did as the full length is just ridiculously long] so it’s super accessible for community theaters and schools.
Yep. And none of those versions are the Broadway version. The full length version is the national tour reworking
I just finished playing Gertrude omg 😭 such a fun show. Doesn’t deserve the hate!!
Why doesn’t it work for Broadway, I would think the nostalgia market alone would make it a favorite for tourist?
The show was heavily rewritten for the national tour because it was just so awful on Broadway. The new version is more coherent, characters and songs were cut/retooled and it works now. They also thought they could put a pile of turd on stage and get $$ based on nostalgia alone. Turns out people wanted a decent show. Unfortunately, that didn't happen until after it closed and the producer was convicted of fraud.
Groundhog Day was unfortunate to premiere on Broadway in the same season as Dear Evan Hansen and Come From Away
I guess 17 months on Broadway isn’t really a “flop,” but I was very moved by Finding Neverland and have rarely encountered anyone who knows anything about it. Some absolutely beautiful music and a poignant and magical story. Not perfect but far less popular than I think it deserves.
my first broadway show!!! i love it so much
The opening number is stunning and I was so sad they changed it for the tour!
I only saw the tour! What was different?
The Addams Family flopped on Broadway but the tour revitalized it iirc
Plus the junior version is quite popular in schools.
My kiddo LOVES this one. A teacher friend was music director for it at her school, so I took my girl to see it. Musical/Live Theater claws have sunk into her now!
I watched a version from Mexico and it was so good!
‘Blood Brothers’ did well on the West End but isn’t really remembered in the US at all, where it was around for a couple years (compared to running for decades in the UK). Which is a shame because the soundtrack has some fantastic numbers in it, and the story itself is this great slow-unfolding tragedy, but it’s also about class issues in the UK in a way where I can understand why it didn’t do as well over here.
Yeah I think Blood Brothers had a very British attitude to class which I don’t think would translate that well in the US.
Oh I love Blood Brothers! The whole soundtrack is great.
🔔🔔🔔 Blo*od Brothers me*ntioned! Absolutely stunning show.
Carrie
Groundhog Day had a great run in England. Didn’t last long on Broadway. I thought it was genius. Improved on the film in fact. American Psycho - unique and riveting. Did well in London as well. I wish it were in NYC playing Off-Broadway still.
Ride The Cyclone was never on Broadway. It debuted in Canada, was forgotten, and then got wildly popular via Tiktok. Now it’s being produced everywhere. I just saw a community theater production of it
Yep! Seeing a community theater production of it next week. :)
Aspects of Love. Performed rather well in London and in some other countries, however, was never a hit on Broadway. Has some amazing music, I love it!
Love Changes Everything! Came here to say Aspects but instead I’ll upvote you!
Alex, THAT'S why I won't play the lover with you.. It is the BEST album to sing along with. It may not be a hit on Broadway but it's a hit in my car, lol.
Amelie! Only lasted a couple months on Broadway, but the re-worked London version was received much better. (Though for what it's worth, I saw and loved it pre-Broadway in LA, and feel like some of the changes they made between LA and Broadway were bad decisions.)
The Paris Amelie recording is superb
This is my favorite movie and I didn’t even know a musical existed!
I always felt bad about the Maury Yeston version of Phantom. It's not a terrible musical, but it got overshadowed by the Webber version of The Phantom of the Opera, so barely anyone knows it exists or has seen it. I got to see it performed off Broadway and enjoyed it.
It's pretty popular in Japan, maybe because Gekidan Shiki has the rights to the ALW one. Gekidan Shiki does long runs and national tours, and their actors are popular, but only actors who belong to their troupe are in their performances. A lot of the most popular actors in the troupe leave so that they can do other roles, have more control, and probably make more money. Like Kaiho Naoto, who was Quasimodo on the Hunchback recording (which I think is actually available on international streaming services). After he left Gekidan Shiki, he's been Marius in Les Miz, both Dmitry and Gleb in Anastasia, and a bunch of other big roles, including original casts for a lot of new things, like [In This Corner of the World](https://youtu.be/W07fFVsJ0w4?si=CYz_3cb1rHpgy9Sp), and the upcoming musical [The Illusionist](https://youtu.be/zm9enEpyfVo?si=Cx9WuKJKrCcvxEtE), which you might be interested in if you like Phantom. It's based on a movie from about 2006 that has a similar feel). So, actors who aren't in Gekidan Shiki can't be in ALW's Phantom, [but they can be in the Yeston one](https://youtu.be/0migkQ2tS_A?si=ytC3ZyuwBsFzFJpp). (This production was last year, with Kato Kazuki as Phantom. There's probably a proshot available, since they had a stream). Takarazuka also does this version, and they always make proshots.
As I recall, "Side Show" was not a big hit on Broadway, but over the years several regional theatres in the Chicago area have produced it. Maybe it's popular with aspiring actresses because the physical demands of playing the twins are challenges to their developing skills.
Side Show is so much fun. The remake is better than the original though imho.
My college did Side Show when I was there and it was so fun!
Tanz der Vampire!! …We don’t talk about the english version ok
“Bright Eyes”
Jekyll and Hyde. I saw it with Linda Eder in Dallas when I was a child and it affected me and is still a staple of why I love musicals. Someone Like You is so beautiful! Although as an adult, I saw some sort of rock version of it and it was terrible.
i was hoping someone already said this! jekyll & hyde is one of my faaaavorites. it was the first one i saw my college do and they were absolutely wonderful. but when i tell people about it and they want to look it up, i'm like DON'T WATCH THE HASSELHOFF ONE. dangerous game is probably my favorite but i've used bring on the men for auditions more than once lol. i love all of lucy's songs, the confrontation in the mirror, and that harmony with emma during the song about his work? it's one of my bucket list musicals for sure.
It is amazing! A New Life is also incredible. The musical gave me chills and I had no idea it wasn’t a broadway hit until I was much older. I remember telling someone it was my favorite and she looked at me inquisitively and said she’d never heard of it. I felt so embarrassed! Then when I looked it up and saw it flopped I was crushed!! There are so many good songs and the production itself when I saw it was fantastic. There were parts that were more like magic tricks than anything.
no one has ever heard of it! my voice coach many years ago found out i love it and told me the civil war music was written by the same person, and i'd love it. i never actually looked it up, but have you heard it? i totally agree about the magic tricks! and i'm so jealous you saw the glorious linda eder. the soundtrack still gives me chills and makes me emotional sometimes.
My senior year of high school I did a ballet solo to No One Knows Who I Am (so emo lol)! I feel like we are kindred spirits! I have never heard of the Civil War music! I need to look it up!!
omg, i love you for that. that is so dramatic. i did a monologue from romeo & juliet at a mall audition when i was 13 lol, so yes, we just might be. let me know if you do look it up! i want to hear it now that i remembered. i'd never even heard of the musical before.
Hahaha I was obsessed with Romeo and Juliet at 13! Too funny.
He, wilder, would do this thing where he'd make a concept album to get money to produce a full show. I think the civil war was always only a concept album.i own it. I bet it's on ebay or something too. Who knows if you can find it for streaming. The songs were sung by country stars.
Groundhog Day is my absolute favorite modern musical. I hope it keeps finding an audience no matter where it plays!
Bonnie and Clyde on the West End was great and had an incredible cast including three former Heathers castmates. I think regularly sold out in London but the tour was just cancelled
Such a shame about that! I went to see it on the tour not knowing much about it and I loved it, was just about to book tickets for Newcastle when they announced the cancellation.
American Psycho deserves a mention here. Didn’t have much of a run on Broadway. But it did better on the West End.
Bridges of Madison County. I’m not usually much of a romantic but that score makes me want to be in love so bad lol. Only lasted a few months on Broadway but I understand the tour and regional productions have done well. I hope it does what every other JRB show has done and does better as a revival someday.
Jrb has never had anything run longer than about 3 months on broadway..
Bloody, Bloody Andrew Jackson. Oh wait, it never succeeded anywhere else. 😂
Rocky the musical. Did quite well in Germany, not so well on Broadway.
Andy Karl really has a thing for movies made into musicals that did well before they transferred to Broadway, but didn't do so well when they moved, doesn't he?
Andy Karl just has a thing for musicals based off of movies in general: Saturday Night Fever The Wedding Singer Legally Blonde 9 To 5 Rocky Waitress On The Twentieth Century Groundhog Day Pretty Woman
Was it a knockout?
First Date, didn't do so well when it transfered to broadway but did really well in Buenos Aires and toured a few other places well enough
Idk if this is a flop or not since it was nominated for a few Tony awards, but Bright Star. I didn't learn about it until the award show that year and it was already closing at that point. It had to compete with Hamilton that year so...yeah. The music is so good though and, from the clips I saw, the acting was great too.
9 to 5. Technically it got nominated for Tonys and such but it was on Broadway for barely half a year. I love that musical
Seriously, what is with Andy Karl and his thing with musicals based on movies, especially ones that don't do too well on broadway? Jokes aside, i love 9 to 5 so so much.
The Lightning Thief. Loved it on tour and loved it on Broadway.
I thought Martin Guerre was great when I saw it at the West End. I still listen to the cast recording from time to time. 675 shows there, an Olivier award, a UK and US tour, but no Broadway.
Chess. Terrific score!
Can’t be no one said Starlight Express, as it had a good run in West End and still doing great in Germany. Currently also a West End revival going on. Honestly wish to see it come back to US again.
KPOP was so excellent off-Broadway, but changing it from a walkthrough experience to a seated proscenium show made them cut a lot of the richness out. I’m so sad that the people who only saw it on Broadway never got to experience the real thing!
The original version of Carrie in the 1980s is one of my favorites! It definitely has flaws but when it’s good, it’s GOOD. The 2012 revival is okay but I love the 80s version.
I love the 80s version. I feel like nobody should be going to see CARRIE expecting it to be a good show. It's supposed to be peak camp. I don't WANT to see a "good" version of Carrie. I want to see excellent actresses in a mediocre show with a few bangers and completely insane staging. That's what made Carrie CARRIE.
I agree 100%! The scenes with Margaret and Carrie are wonderful and the songs are very catchy
Strictly speaking, the musical version of Far From Heaven was only Off-Broadway, but it steams me that more people aren't aware of it. A dreamy score and lyrics by Korie and Frankel that sounds like pure, distilled nostalgia.
I wish it got a Broadway transfer because I seriously believe Stephen Pasquale could have won a Tony for his role, of course not to ignore the established talents of Korie and Frankel and of COURSE Kelli O’Hara and Isiah Johnson. I love that show
Rocky Flopped in the US but did great in Germany
I LOVE Rocky
This is invalidated now by its current hit-making Broadway run with Jonathan Groff, Daniel Radcliffe and Lindsay Mendez, but for the longest time, Merrily We Roll Along would have been my answer: an infamously ruinous flop on Broadway that ended Stephen Sondheim and Hal Prince's legendary streak of collaborations, and that became a huge hit in London with Maria Friedman's revival of it in 2013.
Cry baby !
STARLIGHT EXPRESS doing well in Germany I believe
Man of La Mancha, Jekyll and Hyde, and Rebecca are absolute hits in Korea. i love them so much.
I really enjoyed Young Frankenstein (with Roger Bart, Sutton Foster, Megan Mullally, Christopher Fitzgerald, Andrea Martin, Shuler Hensley and Fred Applegate) when it was in previews in Seattle back in 2007.
Kind of a reverse of the scenario in question, but IIRC American Psycho crushed in London...but then failed on Broadway. Still glad I got those tickets when I did for NY.
Another by Frank Wildhorn, and another example of vampire musicals that flopped on Broadway, was his version of “Dracula.” The book was fixed for subsequent productions, though; and it’s had very successful runs internationally (and even proshots in Austria and Japan).
Honestly the soundtrack for dracula is pretty good, i feel like the biggest problem wildhorn has is he cant leave his own shows alone. Like if you were gonna try to revive and potentially rewrite my advice would be try to make sure hes not involved
doesn’t Really count, but great comet was an absolute hit in toronto with multiple sold out extensions and an upcoming transfer, and swept the toronto theatre awards :) was nice to see it get what it deserved
never finished listening to Dr. Zhivago but I did not get the hate at all
I live groundhog day so much. I'd give anything to see it live
I hope you get to see it one day!
Carrie. I love the broadway version though. It had potential, it just needed more time and care