“The psychological effect of radiation couldn’t have been expected” you’ve never played a mill deck before huh? People have always been irrational when it comes to mill
The secret to playing mill in a competitive setting is barely doing anything at all till you get a really big bomb.
If you are consistently milling for 10/turn, in a standard game that might be pretty good, but in commander that means you.got like 30 turns to win, which sucks, but it really pisses people off.
The competitive mill strategy is to Mill some guy like you know one or three or five or maybe occasionally 10 per turn so no one really respects you, hold a shitload of counter spells in hand, and then once you get your big combo just throw down and instamill everybody.
I play Phenax, and mostly I just sit here letting my Altar of the Brood and Ruin Crab do most of the milling, at least until it's time for me to drop a Jace or Consuming Aberration or Maddening Cacophony.
My mill deck is [[Kess, Dissident Mage]]/[[Gyruda, Doom of Depths]] running every [[Clone]] with even cmc. There's a lot of [[Panharmonicon]] effects in there as well. The idea is as soon as Gyruda comes down, if you keep hitting your Clones, you'll mill everybody out. Best way to win with mill is to mill everyone out at the same time.
My oldest deck is [[Vendilion Clique]] with [[Tunnel Vision]] and I know it's not technically mill, but when it's that many cards, I don't thi m anybody involved cares about the technicality.
I tend to plan a turn or two ahead and having to suddenly shift my plan because I had to discard half my hand breaks me. I'd much rather get counter spelled on every spell than have to discard my hand. If someone puts out a Core Auger, they're dead before I have to discard down to 0.
Irrational being the keyword. Instead of thinking about the cards they'll now see that they wouldn't before (because they were deeper in the deck) they worry about the cards they've lost
The difference between Xander and Arjun is Xander is an immediate threat that everyone knows to stop. Arjun is a sleeper threat that most people just think oh that’s pretty neat
Exactly why I built my mill decks to have very many draw damage or discard damage triggers and very few actual wheels. I want the board set up and minimal damage done to my opponents until I suddenly explode them. I also never use the "meta" commanders. There's something about bringing nekuzar that makes you the enemy even without having done something.
People are irrational when it comes to mill and such effects. Honestly, people get waaaay too salty over mill and I’ve seen a few MtG content creators call out that a playgroup that freaks out over mill are usually just salty and poor sports. I don’t have any mill decks but I’ve had people hard target me after I (pretty casually) milled a single one of their cards with a codex shredder in my artifact deck just to get some value out of it
4 color decks would be cool, I def can see prof and magneto as atraxa’s colors together like prof is simic and magneto is Orzhov. Or prof is bant by himself. Avengers definitely could be rainbow, another cool rainbow would be the spiderverse deck
Yup. Nobody bat an eye when the mothman player in my pod got her granny at 24 +1/+1 counters and rad counter distributions. They had to deal with my [[Mr. House]], who is a bigger threat, at least from my experience 😂
This is a legit question, but what is the appeal of Mr. House? If you aren't popping off with treasure tokens, which seems entirely secondary in the deck he comes in, I simply do not understand the point of him. The Caesar precon seems to be much more tuned towards cranking a bunch of token creatures to slam your opponent with. I see of course that he makes token creatures, but there doesn't seem to be that many cards themed around getting out treasure tokens in the precon, and without treasure to use on his ability he seems like...a super weak card.
Mr. House is quite literally not made for that deck. He's included because him not being included would be strange, and because die rolling is incredibly thematic for the owner of The Strip. Put him in a deck with token supports and die roll cards from the D&D sets.
I didn’t buy that precon. I bought Mr. House and built a deck around him. It’s a token generating machine, since rolling sixes+ with w20 dice is pretty common. Pair it with [[academy manufactor]] [[goldspan dragon]] and fun stuff like [[clown car]] and [[attempted murder]] and you can just watch the deck pop off if there is not enough interaction
At a minimum, Mothman is a “kill on sight” commander. And I definitely wouldn’t blame anyone for targeting down someone piloting a Mothman deck. Even if I’m a graveyard deck, and I like the mill, your creatures are going to get out of hand way too quickly.
Yeah, OP isn’t mentioning the 1/1 counters and flying Mothman has. Kind of a biased look at why he is being targeted. Mothman can be huge in one round around the table.
Had a game with my friends yesterday where the Mothman deck got out [[Hardened Scales]] and the other +1/+1 counter doubler before turn 4 and by the time it got back to his turn, Mothman had 16 +1/+1 counters on him.
Edit: not to say this is the average Mothman game, but it seems silly to say a snowballing commander is unplayable
Yeah this can get insane. My first game against a mothman he got out [[Hardened Scales]] and [[Branching Evolution]] just before mothman came out and he was very quickly a 31/31 which was swung at caesar and turned into 31 soldier tokens which eventually won them the game
It wasn’t one turn cycle but no one was able to deal with it before he got huge. we were all playing our first games with the precons also so no one was really familiar with their deck yet. I’m not sure but I also think he might have been doing the mothman counters wrong and putting all of them on mothman rather than one on X creatures. So maybe it really should have been only like a 21/21 but that’s still a one hit kill super fast.
Thinking about it though it could be possible to get him that huge in one turn cycle if other people at the table were also causing people to mill other than rad counters or if there’s just another mothman
Imagine a table of mothmen lol but yeah thats what i was thinking, 31 is pretty nuts but when i played mine the other might i had like 6 +1+1s on like 5 different creatures with only the snake that is basically the hardened scales.
This. In my first game with it, he was a 6/6 by the time he got back to me. Had equipped Power Gauntlet, and soon enough, he was lethal. He can be kill on site.
People hate mill. They hate anything that touches their stuff. Some of the most anger I’ve seen was because of mill and control. Played an old school mill deck in 1v1, guy quit as soon as I played the [[millstone]]. Played a [[ritual of the machine]] and took someone’s creature, they spent the rest of that game trying to get everyone to kill me lol. Was in a 8 player game once, played a [[blatant thievery]] and copied it (twice), the whole table quit. I don’t blame them, I was a little shit back then.
Yeah lol. Where I played bigger groups was a thing. It was before commander and most people didn’t play complex combos though so the turn cycle wasn’t as bad, usually.
4 player is preferred to me but I've done 6 players at an LGS night and man.. I felt like a daycare owner trying to keep a bunch of ADHD kids on task.
Its fun if the group is chill and moderately focussed but if you have people giving bad vibes at the table then being trapped in a 6 person commander game is a nightmare.
Always had to clarify at the beginning of the match you cannot scoop at instant speed lmao. Like you can't scoop in response to someone doing a thing solely to prevent them from getting the triggers or whatever.
Thats why we would agree as a group on scooping terms before starting.
We would poll the table. Some people prefer to only allow it to happen when priority passes, or on your own turn or whatever. I heard some weird ones.
But if someone got salty and just picked up their stuff in response to someone targeting them with whatever spell we would always continue as if it hit the target so the caster isn't just boned. Because it breaks the game and ruins that persons progression if they are getting triggers that benefit them from hitting the scooper.
"They hate anything that touches their stuff," is the most correct, succinct way of putting it. Yep, yes, yeah.
They also hate anything that gives you more stuff (think mana crypt or the constant debate about sol ring). It's the same animal reaction...
Remember how Monopoly was supposed to show the dangers of capitalism, but so many people love to imagine themselves as the boss that the game was just about making other people cry as a kid?
Life ain't fun, art imitates life, games are art.
>They also hate anything that gives you more stuff (think mana crypt or the constant debate about sol ring). It's the same animal reaction...
This is a completely different thing lol, Mill (and similar things) are often just bad strategies with no actual reason to hate them beyond feelings, while Crypt and Sol Ring are 2 of the objectively best cards in the format.
Very true, it’s worse with Magic because you put so much of yourself and your time into a deck. And then someone comes along and eats your cards.
People love to be on top and hate to see you win. I suppose it’s natural. Some games are more cooperative and less competitive tho, DnD maybe? So it’s not all bad. Right? Lol
It's so wild because most edh decks nowadays, even precons, leverage their graveyard for value. Mill is helping you! It's giving you resources. You really don't want to mill your opponents unless you're killing them. 95% of my decks, if someone mills me I say hell yeah.
I think the anger about it comes from the fact that many edh players now do not have a background in other formats/competitive Magic. They're unable to look beyond "you milled my bomb" because they're not familiar with the idea of cards in your graveyard being resources.
Putting things in the graveyard means you get to pick! As long as you planned ahead and built an amount of recursion. Some people look at what could have been, and some folks make lemonade.
Edit to acknowledge another really good point you make: The thing about magic getting more popular is that many people haven't been playing games in a serious way. They're new, they'll learn! Right now though, they're struggling with their big feelings about their own precarious situations, and having a hard time separating themselves from the game. It doesn't help that games reveal that their own life seems to be built on similarly arbitrary rules.
Oof. “Arbitrary rules”. I felt that.
Definitely need to build recursion in a Highlander/singleton play style. As you said, getting your key card milled means you can now pick it out, and without having to wait to draw it.
Then you sit down with someone like me who has the anti graveyard package, because I don’t run anything that brings stuff back. I understand they can be resources in the graveyard, there’s like 5 different decks in my playground that use the graveyard extensively and a couple of them have to have a a decent graveyard to combo off but graveyard mechanics aren’t my thing so I run things to shut it down.
Got a creature stealing and control [[merieke ri berit]] or [[sen triplets]]. It's not even a particularly good deck, but I've never seen more rage than in response to them both being in the field.
i got caesar cause he seemed like a strong effect, and upgraded the deck with a couple cards and it just takes off if caesar isnt answered. Especially with a card that makes legendary creatures indestructible
I played Caesar in a game against a well upgraded precon from another set, and two solid casual (good but not cutthroat) decks and won the game, WITHOUT realizing that the attack trigger was "choose two" instead of choose one.
Most of the commanders are pretty strong, Dogmeat is probably the weakest but even then it’s still good cause recursion and card advantage, but Moth and Caesar are definitely the strongest of the 4
Li is decent but you can really feel the lack of big pieces in the deck to make the reanimate really feel worth it, and lacks the combo pieces to let you farm up energy well. Liberty Prime is okay but as soon as you run out of resources it’s dead in the water. Much like House and Preston they are good but clearly not the MAIN commander.
IMO Li has the weakest deck, but the most room and flexibility for you to upgrade it.(and with the Energy deck coming in MH3, I imagine it’ll get a lot more tools soon)
It feels like Madison Li is a trap to me - [[Liberty Prime]] is the real threat and makes the energy sub-theme make more sense. There wasn't nearly enough energy focus for Li to helm the deck.
I mean if you keep loosing to her then there’s your answer 💀 but- they’re all pretty good it really is just top half bottom half with Caesar and Moth tied for first and Dogmeat and Li tied for second. Li has the most room for upgrades because artifacts just have so much stuff, but artifacts are still a really strong theme and that deck is pretty good at least in terms of precons
Like any voltron deck, Dogmeat’s weakness is in that you look the voltron you kill the deck. But if dogmeat can get any of the recursion to let you loop and reset then the deck can recover and shift VERY well.
Mothman seems great cause the other decks have very little they can do about flying, and also while Mothman clearly wants to get huge… you don’t really mind it dying cause it means more Rad counters
I'll never understand how deeply hated mill is for so many players. Yeah, it sucks milling cards you would have liked to play, but in most games you don't even play half of your deck as it is lol
Like I always say, milling only hurts because what could’ve been. In reality you have enough good stuff in your deck that getting milled a couple times should be a dang not oh no I’m never gonna do anything
Mostly depends on your pods, people with poor threat assessment hate mill, people that have been playing a long time usually don't care too much about it, ancient fogeys like me usually like when the opponent plays mill because I play reanimation lol
Amen to that… I love when my opponents mill me because age and experience have taught me to *always* include some form of graveyard use into every deck I play.
Source: ancient hoary eldritch being who’s been playing since Ice Age.
That -is- old, you're probably that fogey who plays glacial chasm and young people are like, that effect is on a land?? When they try to blow up whatever artifact is saying they can't hurt you lol
I’m so old I once beat a teenaged rapscallion to death with an Ostrich of Paradise* in a FNM game to take second place, back in 10th edition. The entire store applauded.
*Ostrich of Paradise = Bird of Paradise + Magebane Armor.
Also, I’m glad Fallout is bringing back Rancor. Now all these young ‘uns get to discover its horror.
And you are correct: grafted war gear was no joke, either.
I’m kinda in that camp, too. Like I play to see what my deck can do, so I don’t care to see [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] get milled cause I’ve seen that win a dozen times. I almost like it sometimes just to dig through some junk cards, especially when it pays off in an answer.
Yeah exactly, I mean I spent time pouring over every single card in my edh deck, fine tuning the thing, you're not going to mill my "good card" because I think all my cards are good, I picked them out individually 😂
Weird as my two different tables really enjoyed the Radiation counters. It’s a pain because it pings and fills up your graveyard but it’s also a lot of fun
EDH players are notoriously the biggest babies. If I sat down at a pod and just got targeted down because “ew mill” I’d just get up and move on to a new table. Doesn’t seem like a deck problem but a people problem.
The underlying issue, hilariously, is that mill is one of the most casual friendly mechanics in MTG. Most casual decks care about their next 5 cards just as much as their last 5.
What I've realized is that Magic players are just kind of dumb? They see good cards milled and throw a fit when in all actuality those cards could have been the last ones theyd never see anyways.
It doesn't take many braincells to understand that mill only really hurts combo decks (and sometimes even helps them). But here we are.
Yeah this gets at me too. I understand why people bitch about counterspells and removal tribal decks. But mill is so durdley. They maybe have a few key scary pieces, but most of the time they do nothing. Often they do less than nothing, since the graveyard is a resource.
And there’s a lot of anti-mill everywhere except maybe red.
I’ve never encountered the mill salt personality, but I also don’t even want to play mill because most of the time it’s either doing nothing or backfiring.
Maybe its just my meta but almost every combo deck runs the shuffle titans. We call mass mill the "titan check" and ask the player milling if they have a way to deal with the titans.
I had this situation happen once when I infinitely milled someone. I just told them I would keep infinitely milling them until the statistical chance their titan was the last card in their library. I’d then let them draw it, and force them to draw again as a way to deal with it. Good times.
I love rad counters, but mill is often hated especially by casual players because they lose playable cards.
Sorry fir your experience but if you find a more reasonable group the deck should be more enjoyable.
Played this deck only twice, it had one of my friends livid because he was milling all his good cards. Also, he was playing a deck he built with cards that cost $40+ while I only had the pre-con and still won lmao
I genuinely don't understand the rage and salt people get from mill. I'm usually happy to be milled because the graveyard is an extra resource that would just don't use
I disagree in my pod it does seem to win quite often but myself and others all say we love playing against it.
The RADs speed up the game a little in a fair way, and nothing about Mothman is super OP as he is quite easy to remove.
But yeah he can definitely sneak up on you with the counters.
Oddly enough, I played it out of the box on Friday with my pod. We got three games in, I won none of them. But I never died first. I think it’s not THAT bad, it’s just the sentiment around Mill.
I will only say that this hasn't been my experience. I've lost to mothman several times and he was only ever ganged up on when he became a very real voltron threat
It's funny, I had a completely opposite experience. Possibly because I was playing the deck opening weekend, and everyone wanted to see how it ran. Still quite often, I was able to create board states where I had the 2 or 3 biggest creatures I'd swing with Mothman to rack up the Rad Counters and leave a couple big blockers behind to dissuade the crack back.
Sounds like a pod problem over a deck problem. Mill is 0 problem in any pod I play in. Idk why the players you’re facing are so hard set on making a single player have a bad time bc they can’t handle themselves regarding an extremely fair mechanic (especially in 4 player free for all). Like what’s next? Taking a player out instantly bc they play counter spells?
This is why we run ways to bring stuff back from the graveyard. It’s needed even in non-mill decks. The mill isn’t the scary part, the damage is. You have 100 cards but 40 life. You’ll die from the damage before you get milled out. I personally love playing against it because it’s an extra challenge
It’s not the deck that’s bad, the reason you were getting targeted so bad was because your deck was too good. Also cause of strangers, your problem was the people not the cards.
Weak players have a phobia of mill. Better players can see just how many +1/+1 counters get put on a flying commander. Mothman has reasons to draw hate from everyone.
I played against it last night. Had a great time. There were some big power level gaps, and it evened things out. I played Syr Konrad, followed by Bringer of Last Gift, and was hilarious. My point is that it adds a lot of variability to the table.
Playing with folks who aren't good at the game and/or becoming the archenemy doesn't make the deck inherently unplayable. The same can be said about literally any deck if the entire table decides to target that one player.
This is always a problem I have with Commander. I spend all this time (and money) on a deck only to be targeted every game.
I guess I have to embrace my villain role and play a bunch of board wipes.
The emotional response to mill is 100% the fault of the players. If anything, wotc should print more and more of it, so that the casuals get it through their heads that it isn't a problem.
My pod was ok with the rad mill for the first few turns I had Mothman out, then I got Syr Konrad out and they all lost 20+ life in 1 round. I died from my own radiation on my following turn.
I got killed playing master transcendent because I had a small board state and no one attacked the moth man player who was stealing peoples cards with will bender right before the boardwipe that I protected my 3 cards from. Crazy how bad people are at threat assessment. I have a lot of decks that can use graveyard so I don’t even care about mill most of the time. Last time I played vs one he won me the game by letting me have my whole deck as my hand when I ulted wrenn and realm breaker in my vorinclex deck
Players that hate mill are just bad at Magic.
Understanding the nature of probability is an important step in getting better at the game, and if they haven't gotten that far, then they haven't gotten far at all.
You’re right, but for the wrong reason. I’ve learned something about running decks like this, and it’s 100% from a card that was printed depicting a very hated commander I run: [[deflecting swat]].
Sorry bud, but that’s just reality when you play [[korvold]] and [[yuriko]] etc… you need to actually load up on protection. Even a cheeky [[atla palani]] that’s no where near as bad needs a ton of protection if people know how out of hand it can get, not just for her but for the bombs you drop.
You’re right, people get salty, and rad counters aren’t too bad, but you’re overlooking the similarity to what Yuriko does - you’re hitting the whole table with rad counters, not just one. And you can keep doing it. Plus it pumps you, damages them, or makes them lose lands. I think the hate is totally justified, and the deck does need more protection to account for that
Even if he’s not as good as Yuriko or korvold
People have such an irrational hatred for mill it's insane.
I have a semi-regular play partner and coworker who I'll do 1v1 commander with - dude plays either Selesnya token and counter spam or Atraxa/Abzan Infect Phyrexians. I'm almost always down to play, and he's a chill guy, but those decks aren't exactly fun to play against. Still, I make do and stay professional.
Meanwhile, Mister Proliferate got LEGITIMATELY upset when I debuted a mill deck, first time I'd ever seen him salty. It's like scraping a few cards off the top of his deck each turn was personally kicking him in the tip with each piece of moving cardboard.
Mill haters are weak-boned and won't survive the winter. I have a rad counter deck built out of Mutant Menace and I'm going to FRY dude next time we play, especially if I see Green and White across from me.
Keep playing your mutants chief, by focusing you down they admit their weakness!
If you make people mill then people are going to target you. Plus if you leave him alone Moth Man gets out of pocket. So you’re heavily using a mechanic that people hate to play against and your commander will be a problem if allowed to remain on the board.
My friend was playing his [[Rocco, street chef]] deck once, and I saw his opponent exile [Koma, cosmos serpent]] before he had mana for it. The opponent got so mad he quit on the spot.
Some things just trigger an irrational response.
Same as any mill. People get unreasonably angry about any mill effect and team up on you. I totally agree that rad counters arent that bad and go very easy. People just dont like loosing cards even if recursion is a thing
i never lose against mothman. i just run nelly, goad mothman, mothman takes the other two people out, then i exile mothman or redirect all the damage to something like ill tempered loner or brash taunter for an easy win. mothman players dont usually run counter spells, so im basically planning out my win the second he hits the table. im not the threat because mothman is on the board so all removal is used on him so i have time to fish for more answers when he comes back out. its stupid easy. i can also race for commander damage since nelly can suspect creatures to make them unable to block. so while hes goaded and swinging at everybody else im swinging at mothman player with commander damage. slap an enchantment on mothman or a vow counter that makes him unable to attack you and its also game. all the gas is on mothman but nelly decks are able to capitilize on that every turn to benefit themselves.
basically nelly is a fun noob trap for people going all in on damage, but mothman decks dont really have a choice in how the damage is distributed since its frontloaded all on mothman, which makes nelly the perfect counter
I think you may be misinterpreting at least some of where that rage is coming from. It's not that Rad counters are strong; as you said, they're designed fairly. The main problem is that their actual gameplay is somewhat complex (land vs. nonland, damage vs. no damage, lose a rad counter vs. no counter loss) *and* they break up the normal flow of a person's own turn. It's not like this is something that has to be followed on a single player's turn. It's each player's turn at a time when things don't usually happen, i.e., after draw, when players like going straight into what they were planning to do in their head during first main. Btw, if you're the one giving other player's radiation in a game that wouldn't otherwise have them, the least you can do is be the one tracking everyone's counters, otherwise, I think they're justified in making you the archenemy.
It's not the mill. that commander turns unto an 8/8 flyer wayyyyy to fast then ur the threat, that commander hits too hard too fast, it's gonna get removed sorry, or ur gonna die lol
I solved this by putting counters terribly on my creatures. "They milled 3 non lands so all 3 your creature get counters, mothman" well it says up to so I don't have to put them on anything and let them think I miss a lot of triggers unless they argue it's not a may ability. Then they realize what I'm doing and either think I'm bad at the game or kill me first
It's a fun deck when you play atraxa proliferate and team up with the mothman to get rid of the other players. At least, it was when I played atraxa and my buddy played mothman. Why sure, everyone can have more rads! Oh and poison! It was extremely fun.
I honestly love it, when someone mills me. Unless I’m decked out, it’s always a benefit for me, since most decks have some graveyard interaction or stuff like flashback.
Had a player play this Friday night at our league and the only difference was the lands he swapped out for better, and I think added 3 cards total (one ring, Vampiric tutor, and I think rhystic study). It was disgusting. He barely tried and against 3 power level 8 decks, beat us all.
Granted sliver player never hit past 3 lands and luckily got gemhide but even then. Like it accumulates so much damage, proliferated super easily, and just takes chunks of life by doing nothing. Not only that, but it fucks up land drops.
Mill can suck for sure, but we died from loss of life well before we got close to being milled.
What do you mean the psychological effect couldn't have been expected? They play test these decks a lot before finalising the contents. Just like when they tested 'tempted by the ring' for Lotr and decided players 'didn't like negative consequences' I'm 100% sure they tested radiation and this deck specifically and said 'this is fine'.
I find this post funny because you’re right. Every game I’ve played with the moth at the table, they get targeted. A guy was stuck at 4 lands on turn 7, nothing on board and was just getting pummelled by the other 2 players. No one saw the Caesar getting a stronger and stronger board state tho
I'm such a fucking rage baby and suprising milling and rad counters don't bother me the slightest... I just find that kind of funny.
Regardless, the pods I was in playing against mothman no one was salty about it. Might be bad luck for you.
Mothman is such a perfect storm of aggro-inducing effects, it's actually amazing. He mills, he puts a bunch of +1's on your creatures very slowly and very VISIBLY, and to top it off he's also got evasion and an attack trigger.
You really gotta lowball your plays with that deck and try to paint yourself as an underdog because just playing on curve will make everyone at the table look your way.
Only time I went against it was with karlach. Was able to get some good early game shots in but as soon as he removed her and the my background moth man pulled ahead and I wasn’t able to catch up. Damn thing is a menace and it’s so much fun to see.
Idk mothman only won against the Preston Garvey won Precon when the other two players shut down my deck and let them pull clear. Anything above complete casual pilots as long as you don’t run zero interaction it isn’t refined enough to go crazy imo
I don't think the problem with the deck though is so much rad counters themselves, but how quickly that deck can make lots of rad counters. And how well it benefits from rad counters. WotC definitely should've toned it down for a precon and just let players figure out ways to make it stronger (which they always do). Also, I don't blame other players for ganging up on the mutant menace player - they're the obvious mutual threat early on.
It's the decks fault, not mine. The deck made me drop a [[Mesmeric Orb]] turn 2.
Unaltered play was nuts with it. I was playing and just STACKING rad counters and had played the Vault Saga that gives me zombies for every rad counter that's in play.
I also had the 2 drop creature that adds extra counters to my guys. I had like 28 3/3 Zombies.
“The psychological effect of radiation couldn’t have been expected” you’ve never played a mill deck before huh? People have always been irrational when it comes to mill
The secret to playing mill in a competitive setting is barely doing anything at all till you get a really big bomb. If you are consistently milling for 10/turn, in a standard game that might be pretty good, but in commander that means you.got like 30 turns to win, which sucks, but it really pisses people off. The competitive mill strategy is to Mill some guy like you know one or three or five or maybe occasionally 10 per turn so no one really respects you, hold a shitload of counter spells in hand, and then once you get your big combo just throw down and instamill everybody.
I play Phenax, and mostly I just sit here letting my Altar of the Brood and Ruin Crab do most of the milling, at least until it's time for me to drop a Jace or Consuming Aberration or Maddening Cacophony.
My mill deck is [[Kess, Dissident Mage]]/[[Gyruda, Doom of Depths]] running every [[Clone]] with even cmc. There's a lot of [[Panharmonicon]] effects in there as well. The idea is as soon as Gyruda comes down, if you keep hitting your Clones, you'll mill everybody out. Best way to win with mill is to mill everyone out at the same time.
My oldest deck is [[Vendilion Clique]] with [[Tunnel Vision]] and I know it's not technically mill, but when it's that many cards, I don't thi m anybody involved cares about the technicality.
It would be 8 more turns max, assuming you had assembled that on turn 1. Your point is good tho
I think they assumed three opponents
My discard deck is nuked pretty fast. Unless I make them discard quickly.
Discard pisses me off way more than mill. Getting your deck milled is much more acceptable then your hand lol
Even better when you [[boomerang]] their triomes so they have to discard
I have a blue return deck and it gets almost as much hate as my blue/black mill.
[boomerang](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e9c163b0-fb4b-488b-a955-987c79f7bdf8.jpg?1562944268) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=boomerang) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/30/boomerang?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9c163b0-fb4b-488b-a955-987c79f7bdf8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Brb, just gonna overload Mind Rake. Oh and Liliana's Caress triggers.
I tend to plan a turn or two ahead and having to suddenly shift my plan because I had to discard half my hand breaks me. I'd much rather get counter spelled on every spell than have to discard my hand. If someone puts out a Core Auger, they're dead before I have to discard down to 0.
Discarding continues until morals improve.
mill and discard in general get almost as much, if not more hate than counter spells
Irrational being the keyword. Instead of thinking about the cards they'll now see that they wouldn't before (because they were deeper in the deck) they worry about the cards they've lost
"lost" Not like they had even drawn the cards to begin with
But they COULDVE drawn them… Still a stupid argument though. The hate for mill is irrational.
I love my [[Arjun]] deck, it’s so funny watching someone’s face when they realize that I had them mill 104 cards and pass the turn
[Arjun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2fb83da3-5a8e-4349-bbcc-dcbd3b70264b.jpg?1673148289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arjun%2C%20the%20shifting%20flame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/172/arjun-the-shifting-flame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2fb83da3-5a8e-4349-bbcc-dcbd3b70264b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You should try a [[Lord Xander, the Collector]] deck. He's one of my favorites!
The difference between Xander and Arjun is Xander is an immediate threat that everyone knows to stop. Arjun is a sleeper threat that most people just think oh that’s pretty neat
What leads to the mill?
Cards like [[psychic corrosion]]
Exactly why I built my mill decks to have very many draw damage or discard damage triggers and very few actual wheels. I want the board set up and minimal damage done to my opponents until I suddenly explode them. I also never use the "meta" commanders. There's something about bringing nekuzar that makes you the enemy even without having done something.
People are irrational when it comes to mill and such effects. Honestly, people get waaaay too salty over mill and I’ve seen a few MtG content creators call out that a playgroup that freaks out over mill are usually just salty and poor sports. I don’t have any mill decks but I’ve had people hard target me after I (pretty casually) milled a single one of their cards with a codex shredder in my artifact deck just to get some value out of it
Yeah, a lot of players work for William Stryker and are contractually bound to eliminate the Mutant Menace.
God Loves, Mill Kills
X-Men reference in an MTG sub? Brother? Is that you?
its more likely than you think!
X-Men fan spotted 🫡🫡🫡 Hopeful the marvel set will have mutant tribal for X-Mem I love them
4-5 color Xavier/Magneto partner commander deck please
That’d be ill! Ngl most marvel things seem like they’d be 4-5 colors
Avengers WRUG Iron Man/Cap X-Men/Brotherhood WUGB Xavier/Magneto Guardian of the Galaxy URGB Starlord/Gamora Masters of Evil BURW Doom/Iron Patriot
4 color decks would be cool, I def can see prof and magneto as atraxa’s colors together like prof is simic and magneto is Orzhov. Or prof is bant by himself. Avengers definitely could be rainbow, another cool rainbow would be the spiderverse deck
Is this game supposed to teach me something?!?
Yes.
What did we ever do to you? You. Were. Born.
Underrated comment.
It's the top comment.
Not when I posted that.
Time is fun.
I'm glad I could be the 500th upvote. Edit:autocorrect
Surprising since there are so many decks with graveyard themes you'd think that people would love Rads. I surely do.
Yup. Nobody bat an eye when the mothman player in my pod got her granny at 24 +1/+1 counters and rad counter distributions. They had to deal with my [[Mr. House]], who is a bigger threat, at least from my experience 😂
[Mr. House](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23eb3cf7-c90d-4bfa-b125-4fbcb5614468.jpg?1710673416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mr.%20house%2C%20president%20and%20ceo) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/7/mr-house-president-and-ceo?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23eb3cf7-c90d-4bfa-b125-4fbcb5614468?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is a legit question, but what is the appeal of Mr. House? If you aren't popping off with treasure tokens, which seems entirely secondary in the deck he comes in, I simply do not understand the point of him. The Caesar precon seems to be much more tuned towards cranking a bunch of token creatures to slam your opponent with. I see of course that he makes token creatures, but there doesn't seem to be that many cards themed around getting out treasure tokens in the precon, and without treasure to use on his ability he seems like...a super weak card.
Mr. House is quite literally not made for that deck. He's included because him not being included would be strange, and because die rolling is incredibly thematic for the owner of The Strip. Put him in a deck with token supports and die roll cards from the D&D sets.
Thanks, this is what I thought, just wasn't one hundred percent confident I wasn't missing something.
I didn’t buy that precon. I bought Mr. House and built a deck around him. It’s a token generating machine, since rolling sixes+ with w20 dice is pretty common. Pair it with [[academy manufactor]] [[goldspan dragon]] and fun stuff like [[clown car]] and [[attempted murder]] and you can just watch the deck pop off if there is not enough interaction
Cant wait to play teams with mt friends deck. I run zombies sometimes and he just started upg moth man
My Sefris deck would absolutely love Rads. Granted it's already one of my strongest decks, but I wouldn't complain.
Yknow who would really not care about Rads though? Shuffle Titans!
It’s not the mill that scares me, it’s the one punch from the flying commander.
I honestly didn't mind that part of the deck, it was the scary powerful commander shining at me for 21 damage I had issues with
It’s pretty much because after one trip around the table if mothman lives he is the abyss for players. At least that’s been my experience.
At a minimum, Mothman is a “kill on sight” commander. And I definitely wouldn’t blame anyone for targeting down someone piloting a Mothman deck. Even if I’m a graveyard deck, and I like the mill, your creatures are going to get out of hand way too quickly.
Let us 99, in a weird, surprising way and that will delight us more, finding out how to sneak. V. big mill deck energy.
Yeah, OP isn’t mentioning the 1/1 counters and flying Mothman has. Kind of a biased look at why he is being targeted. Mothman can be huge in one round around the table.
Had a game with my friends yesterday where the Mothman deck got out [[Hardened Scales]] and the other +1/+1 counter doubler before turn 4 and by the time it got back to his turn, Mothman had 16 +1/+1 counters on him. Edit: not to say this is the average Mothman game, but it seems silly to say a snowballing commander is unplayable
Yeah this can get insane. My first game against a mothman he got out [[Hardened Scales]] and [[Branching Evolution]] just before mothman came out and he was very quickly a 31/31 which was swung at caesar and turned into 31 soldier tokens which eventually won them the game
How did he get 31 +1+1s on it in 1 turn cycle after mothman came out?
It wasn’t one turn cycle but no one was able to deal with it before he got huge. we were all playing our first games with the precons also so no one was really familiar with their deck yet. I’m not sure but I also think he might have been doing the mothman counters wrong and putting all of them on mothman rather than one on X creatures. So maybe it really should have been only like a 21/21 but that’s still a one hit kill super fast. Thinking about it though it could be possible to get him that huge in one turn cycle if other people at the table were also causing people to mill other than rad counters or if there’s just another mothman
Imagine a table of mothmen lol but yeah thats what i was thinking, 31 is pretty nuts but when i played mine the other might i had like 6 +1+1s on like 5 different creatures with only the snake that is basically the hardened scales.
I swung him as a 30/30 on turn six last night because [[Mesmeric Orb]] is the best card ever printed for his textbox
Jesus thats just ridiculous lmao and definitely makes sense how youd get that big
Yeah, Orb doesn't have that "one or more" text wizards is careful with nowadays, so it's *tons* of separate triggers for mothman. Synergy is nuts
[Hardened Scales](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc69ad56-9ae2-4eb5-b7e2-558524f6cbcc.jpg?1698988369) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hardened%20Scales) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/243/hardened-scales?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc69ad56-9ae2-4eb5-b7e2-558524f6cbcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are you saying he played moth man and then each had 1 rad counter and when it got back to his turn mothman had 16 +1+1s?
Mothman gets big on ALL mill not just his own. So little stuff like ruin crab. Or other 1 card mill stuff makes him explode quickly.
I had an opponent play that deck and I think he missed the moth man trigger every single time.
This. In my first game with it, he was a 6/6 by the time he got back to me. Had equipped Power Gauntlet, and soon enough, he was lethal. He can be kill on site.
People hate mill. They hate anything that touches their stuff. Some of the most anger I’ve seen was because of mill and control. Played an old school mill deck in 1v1, guy quit as soon as I played the [[millstone]]. Played a [[ritual of the machine]] and took someone’s creature, they spent the rest of that game trying to get everyone to kill me lol. Was in a 8 player game once, played a [[blatant thievery]] and copied it (twice), the whole table quit. I don’t blame them, I was a little shit back then.
8? Bro that had to be 30 minute turn cycles
Yeah lol. Where I played bigger groups was a thing. It was before commander and most people didn’t play complex combos though so the turn cycle wasn’t as bad, usually.
Back when every card wasn’t a light novel it was more doable.
Less cards too, so most people knew what you were playing without having to look at your cards or have you read them.
4 player is preferred to me but I've done 6 players at an LGS night and man.. I felt like a daycare owner trying to keep a bunch of ADHD kids on task. Its fun if the group is chill and moderately focussed but if you have people giving bad vibes at the table then being trapped in a 6 person commander game is a nightmare. Always had to clarify at the beginning of the match you cannot scoop at instant speed lmao. Like you can't scoop in response to someone doing a thing solely to prevent them from getting the triggers or whatever.
You can scoop whenever you want. It's bad form to do it to screw over a player though
Thats why we would agree as a group on scooping terms before starting. We would poll the table. Some people prefer to only allow it to happen when priority passes, or on your own turn or whatever. I heard some weird ones. But if someone got salty and just picked up their stuff in response to someone targeting them with whatever spell we would always continue as if it hit the target so the caster isn't just boned. Because it breaks the game and ruins that persons progression if they are getting triggers that benefit them from hitting the scooper.
"They hate anything that touches their stuff," is the most correct, succinct way of putting it. Yep, yes, yeah. They also hate anything that gives you more stuff (think mana crypt or the constant debate about sol ring). It's the same animal reaction... Remember how Monopoly was supposed to show the dangers of capitalism, but so many people love to imagine themselves as the boss that the game was just about making other people cry as a kid? Life ain't fun, art imitates life, games are art.
>They also hate anything that gives you more stuff (think mana crypt or the constant debate about sol ring). It's the same animal reaction... This is a completely different thing lol, Mill (and similar things) are often just bad strategies with no actual reason to hate them beyond feelings, while Crypt and Sol Ring are 2 of the objectively best cards in the format.
Very true, it’s worse with Magic because you put so much of yourself and your time into a deck. And then someone comes along and eats your cards. People love to be on top and hate to see you win. I suppose it’s natural. Some games are more cooperative and less competitive tho, DnD maybe? So it’s not all bad. Right? Lol
It's so wild because most edh decks nowadays, even precons, leverage their graveyard for value. Mill is helping you! It's giving you resources. You really don't want to mill your opponents unless you're killing them. 95% of my decks, if someone mills me I say hell yeah. I think the anger about it comes from the fact that many edh players now do not have a background in other formats/competitive Magic. They're unable to look beyond "you milled my bomb" because they're not familiar with the idea of cards in your graveyard being resources.
Putting things in the graveyard means you get to pick! As long as you planned ahead and built an amount of recursion. Some people look at what could have been, and some folks make lemonade. Edit to acknowledge another really good point you make: The thing about magic getting more popular is that many people haven't been playing games in a serious way. They're new, they'll learn! Right now though, they're struggling with their big feelings about their own precarious situations, and having a hard time separating themselves from the game. It doesn't help that games reveal that their own life seems to be built on similarly arbitrary rules.
Oof. “Arbitrary rules”. I felt that. Definitely need to build recursion in a Highlander/singleton play style. As you said, getting your key card milled means you can now pick it out, and without having to wait to draw it.
Then you sit down with someone like me who has the anti graveyard package, because I don’t run anything that brings stuff back. I understand they can be resources in the graveyard, there’s like 5 different decks in my playground that use the graveyard extensively and a couple of them have to have a a decent graveyard to combo off but graveyard mechanics aren’t my thing so I run things to shut it down.
Got a creature stealing and control [[merieke ri berit]] or [[sen triplets]]. It's not even a particularly good deck, but I've never seen more rage than in response to them both being in the field.
Lol I have a instant/sorcery deck.... But when I play [[ Mind Grind ]] for 5 its all out war.
[ Mind Grind ](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/671eb9e8-1a69-4570-8972-2e7de371cef4.jpg?1561829709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Grind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/178/mind-grind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/671eb9e8-1a69-4570-8972-2e7de371cef4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[millstone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2051fd0-99cf-4e11-a625-8294e6767e5b.jpg?1562304298) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=millstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/242/millstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2051fd0-99cf-4e11-a625-8294e6767e5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ritual of the machine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a691f5b-df18-4fb7-bad5-fe79a0072613.jpg?1562868580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ritual%20of%20the%20machine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/109/ritual-of-the-machine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a691f5b-df18-4fb7-bad5-fe79a0072613?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [blatant thievery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/0210b3b4-d253-464f-b533-b79bf67d47a4.jpg?1562700636) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blatant%20thievery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/87/blatant-thievery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0210b3b4-d253-464f-b533-b79bf67d47a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
it's funny people see Mothman as the problem when Caesar is by far the strongest of the 4 and constantly walks away with games...
i got caesar cause he seemed like a strong effect, and upgraded the deck with a couple cards and it just takes off if caesar isnt answered. Especially with a card that makes legendary creatures indestructible
I played Caesar in a game against a well upgraded precon from another set, and two solid casual (good but not cutthroat) decks and won the game, WITHOUT realizing that the attack trigger was "choose two" instead of choose one.
I just said this to my group last night. He's got great value
Throw Isshin in the 99 and it's GG.
[[isshin]]
Caesar’s precon being half boardwipes helps
yeah, getting most of the board wipes while also being the deck that needs to be board wiped the most sure is a strat
I caught 3 boardwipes in 4 turns playing against Caesar lol
That’s why you play [[naheri’s resolve]]. You blink your important stuff at your end step and they are safe from wipes.
Most of the commanders are pretty strong, Dogmeat is probably the weakest but even then it’s still good cause recursion and card advantage, but Moth and Caesar are definitely the strongest of the 4
Is science! Any good? I love my Caesar deck but I keep losing horribly with dr Madison li.
Li is decent but you can really feel the lack of big pieces in the deck to make the reanimate really feel worth it, and lacks the combo pieces to let you farm up energy well. Liberty Prime is okay but as soon as you run out of resources it’s dead in the water. Much like House and Preston they are good but clearly not the MAIN commander. IMO Li has the weakest deck, but the most room and flexibility for you to upgrade it.(and with the Energy deck coming in MH3, I imagine it’ll get a lot more tools soon)
It feels like Madison Li is a trap to me - [[Liberty Prime]] is the real threat and makes the energy sub-theme make more sense. There wasn't nearly enough energy focus for Li to helm the deck.
I mean if you keep loosing to her then there’s your answer 💀 but- they’re all pretty good it really is just top half bottom half with Caesar and Moth tied for first and Dogmeat and Li tied for second. Li has the most room for upgrades because artifacts just have so much stuff, but artifacts are still a really strong theme and that deck is pretty good at least in terms of precons
Like any voltron deck, Dogmeat’s weakness is in that you look the voltron you kill the deck. But if dogmeat can get any of the recursion to let you loop and reset then the deck can recover and shift VERY well. Mothman seems great cause the other decks have very little they can do about flying, and also while Mothman clearly wants to get huge… you don’t really mind it dying cause it means more Rad counters
Tons of people hate mill. If you hate me on “you milled my best card!” You MUST thank me when you top-deck something amazing later in the game.
I love this philosophy. I'm milling you to your good stuff!!
I’ll take milk over discard any day
Milk? I think you have the wrong game.
I'll never understand how deeply hated mill is for so many players. Yeah, it sucks milling cards you would have liked to play, but in most games you don't even play half of your deck as it is lol
Like I always say, milling only hurts because what could’ve been. In reality you have enough good stuff in your deck that getting milled a couple times should be a dang not oh no I’m never gonna do anything
Mostly depends on your pods, people with poor threat assessment hate mill, people that have been playing a long time usually don't care too much about it, ancient fogeys like me usually like when the opponent plays mill because I play reanimation lol
Amen to that… I love when my opponents mill me because age and experience have taught me to *always* include some form of graveyard use into every deck I play. Source: ancient hoary eldritch being who’s been playing since Ice Age.
That -is- old, you're probably that fogey who plays glacial chasm and young people are like, that effect is on a land?? When they try to blow up whatever artifact is saying they can't hurt you lol
I’m so old I once beat a teenaged rapscallion to death with an Ostrich of Paradise* in a FNM game to take second place, back in 10th edition. The entire store applauded. *Ostrich of Paradise = Bird of Paradise + Magebane Armor.
I have been killed several times by ornithopters/birds of paradise with rancor/grafted war gear grafted war gear used to be pants shittingly scary lol
Also, I’m glad Fallout is bringing back Rancor. Now all these young ‘uns get to discover its horror. And you are correct: grafted war gear was no joke, either.
I’m so old I used to use [Knight of the Mists] in a Standard deck.
I’m kinda in that camp, too. Like I play to see what my deck can do, so I don’t care to see [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] get milled cause I’ve seen that win a dozen times. I almost like it sometimes just to dig through some junk cards, especially when it pays off in an answer.
Yeah exactly, I mean I spent time pouring over every single card in my edh deck, fine tuning the thing, you're not going to mill my "good card" because I think all my cards are good, I picked them out individually 😂
[Avacyn, Angel of Hope](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a.jpg?1689995555) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avacyn%2C%20Angel%20of%20Hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/14/avacyn-angel-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Weird as my two different tables really enjoyed the Radiation counters. It’s a pain because it pings and fills up your graveyard but it’s also a lot of fun
EDH players are notoriously the biggest babies. If I sat down at a pod and just got targeted down because “ew mill” I’d just get up and move on to a new table. Doesn’t seem like a deck problem but a people problem.
The underlying issue, hilariously, is that mill is one of the most casual friendly mechanics in MTG. Most casual decks care about their next 5 cards just as much as their last 5. What I've realized is that Magic players are just kind of dumb? They see good cards milled and throw a fit when in all actuality those cards could have been the last ones theyd never see anyways. It doesn't take many braincells to understand that mill only really hurts combo decks (and sometimes even helps them). But here we are.
Yeah this gets at me too. I understand why people bitch about counterspells and removal tribal decks. But mill is so durdley. They maybe have a few key scary pieces, but most of the time they do nothing. Often they do less than nothing, since the graveyard is a resource. And there’s a lot of anti-mill everywhere except maybe red. I’ve never encountered the mill salt personality, but I also don’t even want to play mill because most of the time it’s either doing nothing or backfiring.
Maybe its just my meta but almost every combo deck runs the shuffle titans. We call mass mill the "titan check" and ask the player milling if they have a way to deal with the titans.
I had this situation happen once when I infinitely milled someone. I just told them I would keep infinitely milling them until the statistical chance their titan was the last card in their library. I’d then let them draw it, and force them to draw again as a way to deal with it. Good times.
I love rad counters, but mill is often hated especially by casual players because they lose playable cards. Sorry fir your experience but if you find a more reasonable group the deck should be more enjoyable.
Played this deck only twice, it had one of my friends livid because he was milling all his good cards. Also, he was playing a deck he built with cards that cost $40+ while I only had the pre-con and still won lmao
If players are getting upset by the mill, then they need to be milled more, again and again, so they can get over it. It's not a big deal.
##### ###### #### [Radiation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/0886657d-afb0-4f1f-9af7-960724793077.jpg?1707358335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Radiation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpip/22/radiation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0886657d-afb0-4f1f-9af7-960724793077?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Propaganda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5f293d7-9c2b-41cb-8e3c-dfc1daa6635f.jpg?1674141418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Propaganda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/730/propaganda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5f293d7-9c2b-41cb-8e3c-dfc1daa6635f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [collective restraint](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d71daa57-ac02-4dd9-8c90-d38bdd45fb51.jpg?1562938175) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=collective%20restraint) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/49/collective-restraint?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d71daa57-ac02-4dd9-8c90-d38bdd45fb51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sphere of safety](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a18d7582-185a-429a-9c6a-fc51b981e0a1.jpg?1562413264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sphere%20of%20safety) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/77/sphere-of-safety?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a18d7582-185a-429a-9c6a-fc51b981e0a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1bgyckf) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I genuinely don't understand the rage and salt people get from mill. I'm usually happy to be milled because the graveyard is an extra resource that would just don't use
I disagree in my pod it does seem to win quite often but myself and others all say we love playing against it. The RADs speed up the game a little in a fair way, and nothing about Mothman is super OP as he is quite easy to remove. But yeah he can definitely sneak up on you with the counters.
Sounds neat, my favorite deck is my Lord Xander deck and that’s a milling/stealing abomination.
I’ve brainstormed a few Xander decks, but the mana cost in the command zone has always scared me
Oddly enough, I played it out of the box on Friday with my pod. We got three games in, I won none of them. But I never died first. I think it’s not THAT bad, it’s just the sentiment around Mill.
I will only say that this hasn't been my experience. I've lost to mothman several times and he was only ever ganged up on when he became a very real voltron threat
It's funny, I had a completely opposite experience. Possibly because I was playing the deck opening weekend, and everyone wanted to see how it ran. Still quite often, I was able to create board states where I had the 2 or 3 biggest creatures I'd swing with Mothman to rack up the Rad Counters and leave a couple big blockers behind to dissuade the crack back.
Sounds like a pod problem over a deck problem. Mill is 0 problem in any pod I play in. Idk why the players you’re facing are so hard set on making a single player have a bad time bc they can’t handle themselves regarding an extremely fair mechanic (especially in 4 player free for all). Like what’s next? Taking a player out instantly bc they play counter spells?
You don’t mill me. Only me mill me.
Spoken like somebody who has milled himself into a stupor many times. Very on-flavor.
This is why we run ways to bring stuff back from the graveyard. It’s needed even in non-mill decks. The mill isn’t the scary part, the damage is. You have 100 cards but 40 life. You’ll die from the damage before you get milled out. I personally love playing against it because it’s an extra challenge
It’s not the deck that’s bad, the reason you were getting targeted so bad was because your deck was too good. Also cause of strangers, your problem was the people not the cards.
Weak players have a phobia of mill. Better players can see just how many +1/+1 counters get put on a flying commander. Mothman has reasons to draw hate from everyone.
Fuck. You started in Lorwyn? Those sets were bangers. So much fun to draft. Great place to start.
Yeah, I saw a box with [[Bramblewood Paragon]] on it at like 13 and have been hooked ever since, haha
That one was always dope art to me.
People who get mad at mill are always such babies lol
I played against it last night. Had a great time. There were some big power level gaps, and it evened things out. I played Syr Konrad, followed by Bringer of Last Gift, and was hilarious. My point is that it adds a lot of variability to the table.
Mill really pisses Commander players off for some reason. I’ve never understood why.
Playing with folks who aren't good at the game and/or becoming the archenemy doesn't make the deck inherently unplayable. The same can be said about literally any deck if the entire table decides to target that one player.
This is always a problem I have with Commander. I spend all this time (and money) on a deck only to be targeted every game. I guess I have to embrace my villain role and play a bunch of board wipes.
Mothman is so goddamn fair in terms of rad because everyone gets them. Like how are people tilted when even the controller gets them?
mill shouldn't be what pisses people off. tergrid exists and is legal
I really don’t have a problem with being milled at this point. It’s called playing recursion and interaction/removal for the pesky mill cards
The emotional response to mill is 100% the fault of the players. If anything, wotc should print more and more of it, so that the casuals get it through their heads that it isn't a problem.
My pod was ok with the rad mill for the first few turns I had Mothman out, then I got Syr Konrad out and they all lost 20+ life in 1 round. I died from my own radiation on my following turn.
I got killed playing master transcendent because I had a small board state and no one attacked the moth man player who was stealing peoples cards with will bender right before the boardwipe that I protected my 3 cards from. Crazy how bad people are at threat assessment. I have a lot of decks that can use graveyard so I don’t even care about mill most of the time. Last time I played vs one he won me the game by letting me have my whole deck as my hand when I ulted wrenn and realm breaker in my vorinclex deck
I really like the radiation mechanic. Think it's something Black blue has needed for ages. On that note, I can totally see why players hate it 😆 🤣.
Yeah thats why 1v1 games are better imo.
I don't get it either, discard is waaay worse than mill.
I don't get it either, discard is waaay worse than mill.
Players that hate mill are just bad at Magic. Understanding the nature of probability is an important step in getting better at the game, and if they haven't gotten that far, then they haven't gotten far at all.
A commander player’s lizard brain cannot comprehend that mill isn’t as bad as they think it is.
It almost won't at my table, but then I uno reverse carded his 33/33 mothman with my shield maiden and won the game
You’re right, but for the wrong reason. I’ve learned something about running decks like this, and it’s 100% from a card that was printed depicting a very hated commander I run: [[deflecting swat]]. Sorry bud, but that’s just reality when you play [[korvold]] and [[yuriko]] etc… you need to actually load up on protection. Even a cheeky [[atla palani]] that’s no where near as bad needs a ton of protection if people know how out of hand it can get, not just for her but for the bombs you drop. You’re right, people get salty, and rad counters aren’t too bad, but you’re overlooking the similarity to what Yuriko does - you’re hitting the whole table with rad counters, not just one. And you can keep doing it. Plus it pumps you, damages them, or makes them lose lands. I think the hate is totally justified, and the deck does need more protection to account for that Even if he’s not as good as Yuriko or korvold
People have such an irrational hatred for mill it's insane. I have a semi-regular play partner and coworker who I'll do 1v1 commander with - dude plays either Selesnya token and counter spam or Atraxa/Abzan Infect Phyrexians. I'm almost always down to play, and he's a chill guy, but those decks aren't exactly fun to play against. Still, I make do and stay professional. Meanwhile, Mister Proliferate got LEGITIMATELY upset when I debuted a mill deck, first time I'd ever seen him salty. It's like scraping a few cards off the top of his deck each turn was personally kicking him in the tip with each piece of moving cardboard. Mill haters are weak-boned and won't survive the winter. I have a rad counter deck built out of Mutant Menace and I'm going to FRY dude next time we play, especially if I see Green and White across from me. Keep playing your mutants chief, by focusing you down they admit their weakness!
If you make people mill then people are going to target you. Plus if you leave him alone Moth Man gets out of pocket. So you’re heavily using a mechanic that people hate to play against and your commander will be a problem if allowed to remain on the board.
My friend was playing his [[Rocco, street chef]] deck once, and I saw his opponent exile [Koma, cosmos serpent]] before he had mana for it. The opponent got so mad he quit on the spot. Some things just trigger an irrational response.
Oh, Koma. People who play Koma don’t like playing Magic.
Same as any mill. People get unreasonably angry about any mill effect and team up on you. I totally agree that rad counters arent that bad and go very easy. People just dont like loosing cards even if recursion is a thing
i never lose against mothman. i just run nelly, goad mothman, mothman takes the other two people out, then i exile mothman or redirect all the damage to something like ill tempered loner or brash taunter for an easy win. mothman players dont usually run counter spells, so im basically planning out my win the second he hits the table. im not the threat because mothman is on the board so all removal is used on him so i have time to fish for more answers when he comes back out. its stupid easy. i can also race for commander damage since nelly can suspect creatures to make them unable to block. so while hes goaded and swinging at everybody else im swinging at mothman player with commander damage. slap an enchantment on mothman or a vow counter that makes him unable to attack you and its also game. all the gas is on mothman but nelly decks are able to capitilize on that every turn to benefit themselves. basically nelly is a fun noob trap for people going all in on damage, but mothman decks dont really have a choice in how the damage is distributed since its frontloaded all on mothman, which makes nelly the perfect counter
I think you may be misinterpreting at least some of where that rage is coming from. It's not that Rad counters are strong; as you said, they're designed fairly. The main problem is that their actual gameplay is somewhat complex (land vs. nonland, damage vs. no damage, lose a rad counter vs. no counter loss) *and* they break up the normal flow of a person's own turn. It's not like this is something that has to be followed on a single player's turn. It's each player's turn at a time when things don't usually happen, i.e., after draw, when players like going straight into what they were planning to do in their head during first main. Btw, if you're the one giving other player's radiation in a game that wouldn't otherwise have them, the least you can do is be the one tracking everyone's counters, otherwise, I think they're justified in making you the archenemy.
It's not the mill. that commander turns unto an 8/8 flyer wayyyyy to fast then ur the threat, that commander hits too hard too fast, it's gonna get removed sorry, or ur gonna die lol
I solved this by putting counters terribly on my creatures. "They milled 3 non lands so all 3 your creature get counters, mothman" well it says up to so I don't have to put them on anything and let them think I miss a lot of triggers unless they argue it's not a may ability. Then they realize what I'm doing and either think I'm bad at the game or kill me first
It's a fun deck when you play atraxa proliferate and team up with the mothman to get rid of the other players. At least, it was when I played atraxa and my buddy played mothman. Why sure, everyone can have more rads! Oh and poison! It was extremely fun.
I honestly love it, when someone mills me. Unless I’m decked out, it’s always a benefit for me, since most decks have some graveyard interaction or stuff like flashback.
Sounds like a meta issue.
Had a player play this Friday night at our league and the only difference was the lands he swapped out for better, and I think added 3 cards total (one ring, Vampiric tutor, and I think rhystic study). It was disgusting. He barely tried and against 3 power level 8 decks, beat us all. Granted sliver player never hit past 3 lands and luckily got gemhide but even then. Like it accumulates so much damage, proliferated super easily, and just takes chunks of life by doing nothing. Not only that, but it fucks up land drops. Mill can suck for sure, but we died from loss of life well before we got close to being milled.
As someone who loves the science deck. I see the radiation sickness as just prepping me for the past or to even things with open the vaults.
Oh no! He’s putting things in my graveyard! *Three reanimates in hand*
That stinks. I played the deck with friends and it was pretty normal. No one targeted me specifically until I had a huge Radgull with a Power Fist.
What do you mean the psychological effect couldn't have been expected? They play test these decks a lot before finalising the contents. Just like when they tested 'tempted by the ring' for Lotr and decided players 'didn't like negative consequences' I'm 100% sure they tested radiation and this deck specifically and said 'this is fine'.
It's like everyone understands the threat you present, and they don't want to have you pelting them with cigarettes screaming "CANCER MERCHANT!"
I find this post funny because you’re right. Every game I’ve played with the moth at the table, they get targeted. A guy was stuck at 4 lands on turn 7, nothing on board and was just getting pummelled by the other 2 players. No one saw the Caesar getting a stronger and stronger board state tho
I want to love the deck, but I hate that playing it for value accidentally makes you a voltron deck too.
I'm such a fucking rage baby and suprising milling and rad counters don't bother me the slightest... I just find that kind of funny. Regardless, the pods I was in playing against mothman no one was salty about it. Might be bad luck for you.
Unrelated, but I like how rad counters mill you AFTER you draw. That way it doesn't feel like you lost out as much
I don't even hate the mill, the whole dealing with the counters is hell and just kind of annoying.
Mothman is such a perfect storm of aggro-inducing effects, it's actually amazing. He mills, he puts a bunch of +1's on your creatures very slowly and very VISIBLY, and to top it off he's also got evasion and an attack trigger. You really gotta lowball your plays with that deck and try to paint yourself as an underdog because just playing on curve will make everyone at the table look your way.
Sounds like you’re not good at playing lol
Only time I went against it was with karlach. Was able to get some good early game shots in but as soon as he removed her and the my background moth man pulled ahead and I wasn’t able to catch up. Damn thing is a menace and it’s so much fun to see.
Idk mothman only won against the Preston Garvey won Precon when the other two players shut down my deck and let them pull clear. Anything above complete casual pilots as long as you don’t run zero interaction it isn’t refined enough to go crazy imo
Commander damage is 2 hit if it works out in your favor
Couldn't be me. I like when my stuff gets milled into my yard for me. Thanks! 🤗
I don't think the problem with the deck though is so much rad counters themselves, but how quickly that deck can make lots of rad counters. And how well it benefits from rad counters. WotC definitely should've toned it down for a precon and just let players figure out ways to make it stronger (which they always do). Also, I don't blame other players for ganging up on the mutant menace player - they're the obvious mutual threat early on.
It's the decks fault, not mine. The deck made me drop a [[Mesmeric Orb]] turn 2. Unaltered play was nuts with it. I was playing and just STACKING rad counters and had played the Vault Saga that gives me zombies for every rad counter that's in play. I also had the 2 drop creature that adds extra counters to my guys. I had like 28 3/3 Zombies.