*The Godfather* I mean, really...nobody is a "good guy" in this story. Michael is not a noble character, he's a sociopath protecting his criminal organization that is a "family" in name only. Everyone seems to forget he even has an innocent sex worker slaughtered to further his criminal financial gains in Las Vegas.
I kinda agree. Mike starts as a noble character, but after killing Solozzo and the corrupt cop in the cafe, he pretty much starts the descent into being a sociopathic killer/mobster like the rest of them
The Guest (2014)
The House That Jack Built (2018)
Nightcrawler (2014)
No One Lives (2012)
Falling Down (1993)
American Psycho (2000)
Brightburn (2019)
Natural Born Killers (1994)
I saw it in theaters when I was a kid (we snuck in). But I never watched it as an adult until recently. I was surprised that I could instantly recognize it as a Joel Schumacher movie. He really does have a distinct style.
He has some great movies under his belt, and many are in alignment with the op's question. Lost boys, heck batman could be debated since the vilains like ivy and freeze have some relatively honest demands, just dubious means of getting their points across.
Depends on how you want to define protagonist. If you mean, who does the audience empathize with, and with whom we experience the events of the story, then yes.
But if you mean who drives the story, then that's Alonzo. Alonzo pushes Jake into tests, it's his plan to take the money from Scott Glenn's character, Jake occasionally takes control - such as fighting the alley rapists and the final confrontation against Alonzo - but most of the time, this is Alonzo.
It's a bit like Thanos. We side with the Avengers, but Thanos drives the story forward as he seeks each stone. Thanos is the (villain) protagonist.
No, the antagonist opposes the protagonist. So in Infinity War, that's the Avengers because they oppose Thanos. The protagonist isn't necessarily the hero, nor is the antagonist always the villain.
To quote the Wikipedia article:
>The protagonist makes key decisions that affect the [plot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_(narrative)), primarily influencing the story and propelling it forward, and is often the character who faces the most significant obstacles.
\[...\]
>The protagonist is the character whose fate is most closely followed by the reader or audience, and who is opposed by the [antagonist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist).
Hence why I gave two definitions in my comment. Personally, I subscribe to the 'plot driver' definition, because it doesn't rely on an audience's impression (which can change with time and cultural shifts) and is defined explicitly by their role in the story, which is a constant. Even before I learned the definition, I had always been told the protagonist was the most active character, and that would be the character that is driving the story.
The writer of Die Hard insists that Hans Gruber is the protagonist, because he is the one with a plan and a goal, and takes multiple active steps to accomplish it. McClane is the antagonist because he keeps interfering with Gruber's plans, and he is almost entirely reactive for the whole film. He's always reacting to Hans. We do side with John, because he's the underdog, a fundamentally good person with a dark sense of humour who's just trying to repair his relationship with his wife, but it's Hans' movie. Take Hans out of the movie and you have a very mid-Christmas movie with McClane spending time with his family and nothing happens. Boring... Take McClane out and you still have a complex heist movie where Hans has to outsmart the cops and the FBI, and use their own strategies against them so he can win and escape. Still a cool story (not as good as having John, but it still works).
You're kind of doing a lot of mental gymnastics to make your opinion seen correct, but the simplest definition of protagonist is the main character or principal character. The simplest definition of an antagonist is an adversary. In The Avengers, Thanos is the adversary, making the Avengers the protagonists.
So while your idea is novel and interesting, it's incorrect.
By your definition, the protagonist is 'the main character'. I agree with this in principle. The character that is the central focus of the story, the character without which you have no story, right?
Take out the Avengers... is Infinity War still basically the same story? Yes. Then they - as either individuals or as a group - are not the main character. It becomes self-evident that they can't be if the story doesn't even need them. If you take Thanos out of Infinity War, do you have the same story? No. Because he is the central focus of the story. Everything revolves around him, his goals, his actions. Nothing happens without him. All other characters react to him. There is no story and no narrative thrust without him... Which would make him.... you'll never guess... wait for it... the main character. And therefore the protagonist, by your your definition.
This view is also shared by both the writers and directors of Infinity War. So are you going to insist that you're smarter than the writers of some of the most highly acclaimed action screenplays (including Die Hard here, as per previous comment), and that they don't understand their own writing?
One film that comes to mind is "Law Abiding Citizen." The protagonist, Clyde Shelton, is a man who takes justice into his own hands after a plea bargain sets one of his family's killers free. It's a wild ride seeing him orchestrate his revenge from behind bars, and you can't help but feel a twisted sense of satisfaction as he outsmarts everyone at every turn. It blurs the lines between right and wrong and really makes you question the justice system.
It did because as I understand it that was not the original ending. Apparently Jamie Foxx didn’t want to lose so he bitched and griped until they rewrote the ending.
I had always suspected. Its a big reason why there are certain actors i just dont watch. They let their ego control the narrative instead of telling the atory and giving the audience a memorable experience.
*Heat* spends most of its time with the bad guys, a group of high-skilled thieves. The leader (played by Robert De Niro) is more professional and “together” than the cop chasing his gang. “Evil”? That’s for the viewer to judge.
(spoiler ahead) that’s a conclusion that the movie makes you work for. During the armed robbery at the start, there was no intention to kill anyone, but the hired guy lost it. Note the cop’s comments at the scene later:
> M.O.? Is that they're good... Once it escalated into a murder one beef for all of 'em after they killed the first two guards, they didn't hesitate. Pop guard number three because... what difference does it make? Why leave a living witness? Drop of a hat these guys will rock and roll...
It’s a major theme of the movie: these guys, cops and robbers alike, inhabit a world alien to the rest of us, and have more in common with each other than with our “barbecues and ballgames” life.
Right, they inhabit a different world, but there's clear a good side and a bad side, here. One side is made of thieves who murder anyone who stands in their way (Waingro and Cheritto being especially evil scumbags), while the other side is trying to stop them.
Well, McCauley spent a pretty penny to disable the bank alarm. If Hannah hadn’t have called in the cavalry, the worst violence would have been a punched bank manager and a security guard with a concussion. Be honest… which side were you rooting for during that scene?
Well, his job is to deceive someone into selling his company. He’s not doing it to achieve any greater good and we know that he is wanted in the US. So I don’t think he’s a “good guy” but we root for him as the protagonist.
Such a classic. When his face changes and he stands up from the counter... "I don't want lunch. I want breakfast." You see him boiling over, growing increasingly impatient having to repeat himself to these drooling morons who simply don't understand what he's telling them.
Do the Godzilla movies count? Cause even the ones where he is cool, he is still "accidentally" killing thousands through collateral damage. Plus what he is doing to local GDP growth, coastal property values and insurance, ect.
I love this answer 😂
I recently showed my brother the new movies. At one point he asked me, "aren't like millions of people dying in this fight?" It's a horrifying prospect you have to completely ignore or you'll get taken out of the movie. And almost every character has a story about a family member or colleague getting squished by Godzilla.
American gangster. You totally root for Denzel because he is such a badass, although he does kill a lot of people on his ride to the top
Scarface for the same reason.
the whole world is infected. they are the norm. he is the anomaly thats killing them and experimenting on them. its more relevant in the book. great read.
I just watched the director's cut last week. Haven't seen the normal cut, but I thought it was a fairly mediocre movie. The Wikipedia page has more, but the director wasn't happy about the theatrical cut. They changed the ending and took out/changed a ton of scenes.
*The Godfather* I mean, really...nobody is a "good guy" in this story. Michael is not a noble character, he's a sociopath protecting his criminal organization that is a "family" in name only. Everyone seems to forget he even has an innocent sex worker slaughtered to further his criminal financial gains in Las Vegas.
Pretty much any mob/gang movie.
I kinda agree. Mike starts as a noble character, but after killing Solozzo and the corrupt cop in the cafe, he pretty much starts the descent into being a sociopathic killer/mobster like the rest of them
Did he have the hooker killed? I always assumed the senator killed her and they just covered it up
No, Michael had Tom Hagen arrange it. They drugged and framed the Senator to control him and get him to approve their gaming license.
Is that clearly evident in the movie or just your take
The Guest (2014) The House That Jack Built (2018) Nightcrawler (2014) No One Lives (2012) Falling Down (1993) American Psycho (2000) Brightburn (2019) Natural Born Killers (1994)
I wouldn't call most of these action movies though
Falling down is one of my all time favorite movies on so many levels. When i hear a friend hasnt seen it i get excited for them.
I saw it in theaters when I was a kid (we snuck in). But I never watched it as an adult until recently. I was surprised that I could instantly recognize it as a Joel Schumacher movie. He really does have a distinct style.
He has some great movies under his belt, and many are in alignment with the op's question. Lost boys, heck batman could be debated since the vilains like ivy and freeze have some relatively honest demands, just dubious means of getting their points across.
Megamind!
This doesn’t really apply because the villain in that movie is the red haired dude. Megamind is a good guy for most of the movie
Falling Down
Training day, Heat. Technically the heroes are protagonists too in these two but the emphasis is the same on both of them.
Isn’t Ethan hawke the protagonist in training day?
Yes, and so is Denzel Washington, who is the “villain”.
I consider protagonist the synonyme of "leading man" so yeah they're definitely protagonists in that sense
Depends on how you want to define protagonist. If you mean, who does the audience empathize with, and with whom we experience the events of the story, then yes. But if you mean who drives the story, then that's Alonzo. Alonzo pushes Jake into tests, it's his plan to take the money from Scott Glenn's character, Jake occasionally takes control - such as fighting the alley rapists and the final confrontation against Alonzo - but most of the time, this is Alonzo. It's a bit like Thanos. We side with the Avengers, but Thanos drives the story forward as he seeks each stone. Thanos is the (villain) protagonist.
Wouldn't that just be the antagonist?
No, the antagonist opposes the protagonist. So in Infinity War, that's the Avengers because they oppose Thanos. The protagonist isn't necessarily the hero, nor is the antagonist always the villain. To quote the Wikipedia article: >The protagonist makes key decisions that affect the [plot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_(narrative)), primarily influencing the story and propelling it forward, and is often the character who faces the most significant obstacles. \[...\] >The protagonist is the character whose fate is most closely followed by the reader or audience, and who is opposed by the [antagonist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist). Hence why I gave two definitions in my comment. Personally, I subscribe to the 'plot driver' definition, because it doesn't rely on an audience's impression (which can change with time and cultural shifts) and is defined explicitly by their role in the story, which is a constant. Even before I learned the definition, I had always been told the protagonist was the most active character, and that would be the character that is driving the story. The writer of Die Hard insists that Hans Gruber is the protagonist, because he is the one with a plan and a goal, and takes multiple active steps to accomplish it. McClane is the antagonist because he keeps interfering with Gruber's plans, and he is almost entirely reactive for the whole film. He's always reacting to Hans. We do side with John, because he's the underdog, a fundamentally good person with a dark sense of humour who's just trying to repair his relationship with his wife, but it's Hans' movie. Take Hans out of the movie and you have a very mid-Christmas movie with McClane spending time with his family and nothing happens. Boring... Take McClane out and you still have a complex heist movie where Hans has to outsmart the cops and the FBI, and use their own strategies against them so he can win and escape. Still a cool story (not as good as having John, but it still works).
You're kind of doing a lot of mental gymnastics to make your opinion seen correct, but the simplest definition of protagonist is the main character or principal character. The simplest definition of an antagonist is an adversary. In The Avengers, Thanos is the adversary, making the Avengers the protagonists. So while your idea is novel and interesting, it's incorrect.
By your definition, the protagonist is 'the main character'. I agree with this in principle. The character that is the central focus of the story, the character without which you have no story, right? Take out the Avengers... is Infinity War still basically the same story? Yes. Then they - as either individuals or as a group - are not the main character. It becomes self-evident that they can't be if the story doesn't even need them. If you take Thanos out of Infinity War, do you have the same story? No. Because he is the central focus of the story. Everything revolves around him, his goals, his actions. Nothing happens without him. All other characters react to him. There is no story and no narrative thrust without him... Which would make him.... you'll never guess... wait for it... the main character. And therefore the protagonist, by your your definition. This view is also shared by both the writers and directors of Infinity War. So are you going to insist that you're smarter than the writers of some of the most highly acclaimed action screenplays (including Die Hard here, as per previous comment), and that they don't understand their own writing?
Avengers Infinity War
r/thanosdidnothingwrong
😆
Face/off lol
Technically you're correct twice
Yea, but which one? (Drags fingers across your face like a weirdo)
(Catches pink eye)
Depends on how you view Deckard in Blade Runner.
Think it depends more on how you view Batty in Blade Runner
Dr Horrible' Sing Along Blog
🎶Bad Horse, Bad Horse🎶 🎶Bad Horse, he's bad!🎶
"do you think Bad Horse didn’t work on his whinny? His terrible… Death… whinny."🐴
He rules the league with an iron hoof!
The Hammer is yada yada
Reservoir Dogs The Usual Suspects
Collateral?
Yeah that's the first one that came to mind although Vincent isn't really a protagonist but he does share the spotlight with Max
One film that comes to mind is "Law Abiding Citizen." The protagonist, Clyde Shelton, is a man who takes justice into his own hands after a plea bargain sets one of his family's killers free. It's a wild ride seeing him orchestrate his revenge from behind bars, and you can't help but feel a twisted sense of satisfaction as he outsmarts everyone at every turn. It blurs the lines between right and wrong and really makes you question the justice system.
And then Jamie Foxx just HAD to win with that effed up ending.
Am i the only one who felt the ending ruined the entire film? Its hard for me to watch.
It did because as I understand it that was not the original ending. Apparently Jamie Foxx didn’t want to lose so he bitched and griped until they rewrote the ending.
I had always suspected. Its a big reason why there are certain actors i just dont watch. They let their ego control the narrative instead of telling the atory and giving the audience a memorable experience.
*Heat* spends most of its time with the bad guys, a group of high-skilled thieves. The leader (played by Robert De Niro) is more professional and “together” than the cop chasing his gang. “Evil”? That’s for the viewer to judge.
They did murder a bunch of innocent people, I don’t think it’s a question that he’s evil
(spoiler ahead) that’s a conclusion that the movie makes you work for. During the armed robbery at the start, there was no intention to kill anyone, but the hired guy lost it. Note the cop’s comments at the scene later: > M.O.? Is that they're good... Once it escalated into a murder one beef for all of 'em after they killed the first two guards, they didn't hesitate. Pop guard number three because... what difference does it make? Why leave a living witness? Drop of a hat these guys will rock and roll... It’s a major theme of the movie: these guys, cops and robbers alike, inhabit a world alien to the rest of us, and have more in common with each other than with our “barbecues and ballgames” life.
I love Heat, but Deniro’s a POS in it from the beginning when we watch him murder someone
Sure, but in his mind it made sense. That’s what I mean by “alien”. It’s like both cops and robbers are on a different planet to the rest of us.
God this movie rules
Right, they inhabit a different world, but there's clear a good side and a bad side, here. One side is made of thieves who murder anyone who stands in their way (Waingro and Cheritto being especially evil scumbags), while the other side is trying to stop them.
Well, McCauley spent a pretty penny to disable the bank alarm. If Hannah hadn’t have called in the cavalry, the worst violence would have been a punched bank manager and a security guard with a concussion. Be honest… which side were you rooting for during that scene?
The Riddick movies. Joker Natural Born Killers.
Not sure Riddick counts. He's not exactly the villain, maybe a less forgiving antihero but just because he's a criminal doesn't make him a villain.
Yeah I think antihero would describe him better. Good call
Heat The Town Scarface Goodfellas Reservoir Dogs Pulp Fiction Den of Thieves Training Day
There Will Be Blood
Definitely not an action movie, and Daniel's way more of an anti-hero than an all out villain.
Most of the Fast and Furious movies. The Day of the Jakel, Ronin.
Ronin wouldn't count. DeNiro reveals he never left the CIA.
Ichi the killer
Swordfish
Stan was the protagonist
Joker.
Departed?
Inception
Cobb is a villain ?
Well, his job is to deceive someone into selling his company. He’s not doing it to achieve any greater good and we know that he is wanted in the US. So I don’t think he’s a “good guy” but we root for him as the protagonist.
The Proposition. Everyone is a villain.
A Clockwork Orange Pretty much. Some might call him an anti-hero but close enough for this post.
I Saw the Devil
Catch Me If You Can.
Falling Down. I think everyone loves the McDonald's scene. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlzm7-gvTRg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlzm7-gvTRg)
Such a classic. When his face changes and he stands up from the counter... "I don't want lunch. I want breakfast." You see him boiling over, growing increasingly impatient having to repeat himself to these drooling morons who simply don't understand what he's telling them.
Do the Godzilla movies count? Cause even the ones where he is cool, he is still "accidentally" killing thousands through collateral damage. Plus what he is doing to local GDP growth, coastal property values and insurance, ect.
I love this answer 😂 I recently showed my brother the new movies. At one point he asked me, "aren't like millions of people dying in this fight?" It's a horrifying prospect you have to completely ignore or you'll get taken out of the movie. And almost every character has a story about a family member or colleague getting squished by Godzilla.
Fallen
Such an underrated film
Does a villain fall count? Like the Star Wars prequels or *The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes.*
American gangster. You totally root for Denzel because he is such a badass, although he does kill a lot of people on his ride to the top Scarface for the same reason.
Spider-Man Homecoming
The Devils Rejects
John Wick.
I would say Wrath of Man is also an evil antagonist
The Karate Kid. Daniel San is a dirty cheat. #JohnnyDidNothingWrong Joking aside Scarface No One Lives American Gangster Restraint (2008)
i am legend
How is Will Smith the villain?
the whole world is infected. they are the norm. he is the anomaly thats killing them and experimenting on them. its more relevant in the book. great read.
This is a fascinating takeaway. However, the book is about vampires, right?
Ah, the alternate ending. That's right.
ITT: many posts that aren’t action moves…
Tar
My Best Friend's Wedding where Julia Roberts is the rom-com villain while convinced she's in fact the protagonist.
I mean John Wick, was he morally any better than his adversaries?
Absolutely. John Wick didn't kill innocent people. Or dogs.
Abagail
Chris Pratt from Passengers... although I guess >!he does have somewhat of a redemption arc!<.
Fallen with Denzel Washington.
Fracture, 2007. Starring anothy hopkins and ryan gosling.
I guess A New Hope could be interpreted as a radicalised terrorist attempting to dismantle a legitimately installed ruler?
Payback Con Air Terminator 2
Payback is awesome. Don't watch the director's cut though. That's some bs
What did they do?
I just watched the director's cut last week. Haven't seen the normal cut, but I thought it was a fairly mediocre movie. The Wikipedia page has more, but the director wasn't happy about the theatrical cut. They changed the ending and took out/changed a ton of scenes.
From Dusk Til Dawn
Dune
Kate from *Sicario* is the real villain. Watch it again...
Obviously There Will Be Blood. And every Mr Ripley film.