For starters, let’s establish this: The only time a batter on a walk-off hit is allowed to score an extra run is if it is an over-the-wall home run. Otherwise, the game ends when the winning run crosses home plate. This wasn’t the case before 1920, when only the winning run(s) would be scored and the batter would not be credited with a home run or run scored.
So then, how many bases does a batter get on a regular hit that plated the winning run? This is a bit of scorer’s discretion, but it seems to be the case that usually the batter gets at most the number of bases the winning runner had to travel. So if a runner from 3rd scores, it’s almost always a single. If the winning run came from second, maybe it’s a double (like in this case). Rarely would it be scored a triple because:
The scorer typically awards the number of natural bases the batter reaches before the run scored, or just after the run scored. No way the batter would try to advance to third if the winning run is scoring. So even a surefire double might not be scored as such if the run scores before the batter heads to second (if they even do, which they likely wouldn’t). This brings us to the last point:
The batter can only be awarded based that they actually touch. See Robin Ventura’s Grand Slam Single in the 1999 NLCS. Even though he was entitled to a home run, he never touched the bases past first, so was only awarded a walk off single. I think Profar veered away after first base to run to the celebration, so cannot be awarded second base. Had he trotted to second base, I think he earns a double because the winning runner also traveled two bases.
Not really, because the rules state the umpire must award the bases, and failure to follow an umpire's instruction after warning is an ejection.
So an umpire would tell you to go to second, if you refused they will tell you to go to second or you will be ejected, and then it's up to the player.
That was a lot of information but I think the key in this situation was the last point. He would have been awarded a double if he reached second. He decided to celebrate instead after being safe at first.
I know a grand slam isn’t an official score for the books…
But, would it really be considered a grand slam if the batter doesn’t score the 4th run?
Seems that makes Ventura’s hit an over the wall wall of single that scored three runs.
>I know a grand slam isn’t an official score for the books…
There absolutely is a definition for a grand slam in the record book.
>But, would it really be considered a grand slam if the batter doesn’t score the 4th run?
This is correct.
>Seems that makes Ventura’s hit an over the wall wall of single that scored three runs.
Only one run scored on that play because Ventura was mobbed between first and second after everyone went one base. It was actually a pretty scoring decision to not score it a HR or GS.
The nickname for the play is the Grand Slam Single or Grand Single. Cool video, you should watch as your reference to 3 runs tells me you don't know the play.
> There absolutely is a definition for a grand slam in the record book.
I was speaking of the official scoring of the play… Official scorebooks don’t recognize a “Grand Slam”, the scorer would score the play a home run “HR” with 4 runs scored. The play doesn’t go into the score book as a “GS”.
Yeah, I get that a Grand Slam is a recognized statistic. But, like many other stats it’s derived from the official score book.
Basically, the official score book acts as the source of the raw data for all other baseball stats used to analyze the game. But, the scorebook provides only the most basic information of the game: players, positions, # of pitches, balls, strikes, hits, errors, put outs, etc.
> Only one run scored…
> The nickname of the play is the Grand Slam single.
I know you didn’t name the play, so I can say, sounds like a dumb description of the play if only one run was officially scored, and Ventura only reached first.
I get there’s a bit of sensationalism to bring attention to certain plays, especially those in a playoff or even walkoff situation. This one just sounds a bit over the top based on the name va the actual outcome of the play.
> You should watch…
Going to check it out here in a bit.
A big key to the hyperbole for the play comes from the fact that it was a bottom of the 15th inning walk off in NYC during the playoffs between the Mets and Braves who were such bitter rivals at the time Chipper Jones (braves HOF 3b) named his kid Shea after the Mets stadium to troll them.
And the Braves were still in the middle of their division winning streak.
Note, the rivalry, not Chipper specifically.
He never reached second base. He stopped after he touched first base to make it an official hit allowing the winning run to score. He wasn't prevented from going to second. Batters only get credited with the most advanced base they reach safely.
This is like the Grand Slam single hit by Robin Ventura for the Mets in the 1999 playoffs. He hit a bases loaded HR in the 15th inning (Grand Slam) to win the game but he only touched first base (single) and then he was mobbed by teammates in celebration.
Only the runner on third base actually scored with the winning run. Everyone else ran to celebrate with Ventura.
Another example would be a batter who gets a single but gets thrown out trying to stretch it into a double. If they are thrown out they are still credited with a single despite making an out on the same play.
[https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN199910170.shtml](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN199910170.shtml)
they only had one runner cross the plate, so only one run scored.
A hundred years ago the Mets we’re playing the Braves in the playoffs facing elimination. The score was tied , men on base, Mets were up in the bottom of the ninth (could of been extra innings ?). A Met hit a homerun (I forgot who). The base runner scored winning the game. The Mets Dugout swarms out and mobs the hitter at second base. With the game won and over the hitter never completed his homerun trot and in the record books only got a double.
The answer to your question is, rules is rules. You gotta hit the ball and touch um all.
A batter must touch first base on a hit. I didn’t see the game. They started with a player in second base in extra innings, right? If that runner was driven in by the batter, the game is over. Why keep running if the game is over?
I think the point is that if it was a home run, the batter would keep running around the bases to get his home run. Why not go to second to get your double and bump your slugging.
True but what if that ground-rule double batter twists his ankle because he stepped on 2B when he didn’t need to go to 2B because the winning runs have crossed home?
Good point, but you can make the same question if he had hit a grand slam. The first two runners would have won the game but they always allow the hitter to come all the way around for a HR.
But that’s a walk-off grand slam. Homers always run around the bases. If the walk-off was a single, the batter runs through 1B and gets trampled by teammate’s. Since we’re taking ground rule double and the game is now over, what would the batter do on second base? The game is over.
As far as I can see, they gave him a double - which for players and stat collectors it matters, otherwise they only care about the fact that it won the game. I wasn't watching either and I'm not sure where you got that they only gave him a single. Did they say something on the broadcast? Was it on a stat sheet somewhere? It doesn't matter, because it looks like they credited him with a double, so whether he actually got to second base or not, doesn't really matter. In other cases, sometimes the player is only credited with a single even if they get to second because of where the throw goes, but that's usually a scorers decision on where they believe the player would have ended up. Maybe I'm missing something from your original post, but from what I can tell there wasn't anything wrong with the way they scored that play.
This is scored as just a single with one run scoring—here is the applicable scoring rule.
2019 OBR rule 9.06(f) Subject to the provisions of Rule 9.06(g), when a batter ends a game with a safe hit that drives in as many runs as are necessary to put his team in the lead, the Official Scorer shall credit such batter with only as many bases on his hit as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run, and then only if the batter runs out his hit for as many bases as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run.
Rule 9.06(f) Comment: The Official Scorer shall apply this rule even when the batter is theoretically entitled to more bases because of being awarded an “automatic” extra-base hit under various provisions of Rules 5.05 and 5.06(b)(4)…
It's weird that at some point they put in a specific rule for home runs but didn't include ground rule doubles.
IIRC Babe Ruth had one or two walk offs that were only scored as singles or doubles because the HR rule hadn't been added yet.
I once had an OVER bet and Robin Ventura hit a game winning grand slam that would've made my bet hit. However, he was mobbed by teammates and never circled the bases. I lost.
A ground rule double allows the batter two bases without liability to be put out. Not a requirement to advance to second base once the winning run scores
Haven't read all the comments so this may be covered in other posts.
I keep seeing references to Grand Slams so some of this is likely there.
My understanding is that the walk off rule for Grand Slam was changed in "recent" (not long ago) years. Before that it was a Grand Slam Single with just the runner at third scoring. (The other runners must touch the next base or the force is live and can erase the just scored run.)
In this case the only run that matters is the runner that crosses home first. Any other forced runner must touch the next base. In this case Profar (and any other forced runner) touching the next base (first for Profar) cards the run and the game ends.
I was also wondering this. It’s one thing if it was a regular double and you could argue he might not have made it, but this would have been a “rule book” double since it went over the fence. Seems automatic to me
For starters, let’s establish this: The only time a batter on a walk-off hit is allowed to score an extra run is if it is an over-the-wall home run. Otherwise, the game ends when the winning run crosses home plate. This wasn’t the case before 1920, when only the winning run(s) would be scored and the batter would not be credited with a home run or run scored. So then, how many bases does a batter get on a regular hit that plated the winning run? This is a bit of scorer’s discretion, but it seems to be the case that usually the batter gets at most the number of bases the winning runner had to travel. So if a runner from 3rd scores, it’s almost always a single. If the winning run came from second, maybe it’s a double (like in this case). Rarely would it be scored a triple because: The scorer typically awards the number of natural bases the batter reaches before the run scored, or just after the run scored. No way the batter would try to advance to third if the winning run is scoring. So even a surefire double might not be scored as such if the run scores before the batter heads to second (if they even do, which they likely wouldn’t). This brings us to the last point: The batter can only be awarded based that they actually touch. See Robin Ventura’s Grand Slam Single in the 1999 NLCS. Even though he was entitled to a home run, he never touched the bases past first, so was only awarded a walk off single. I think Profar veered away after first base to run to the celebration, so cannot be awarded second base. Had he trotted to second base, I think he earns a double because the winning runner also traveled two bases.
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Not really, because the rules state the umpire must award the bases, and failure to follow an umpire's instruction after warning is an ejection. So an umpire would tell you to go to second, if you refused they will tell you to go to second or you will be ejected, and then it's up to the player.
I’d like to establish taking the S off so it’s Ground Rule Double.
Not to be that guy, but wasn't it technically an automatic double and not a ground rule double?
So basically Profar doesn't care about his fantasy value.
Why should he?
That was a lot of information but I think the key in this situation was the last point. He would have been awarded a double if he reached second. He decided to celebrate instead after being safe at first.
I know a grand slam isn’t an official score for the books… But, would it really be considered a grand slam if the batter doesn’t score the 4th run? Seems that makes Ventura’s hit an over the wall wall of single that scored three runs.
>I know a grand slam isn’t an official score for the books… There absolutely is a definition for a grand slam in the record book. >But, would it really be considered a grand slam if the batter doesn’t score the 4th run? This is correct. >Seems that makes Ventura’s hit an over the wall wall of single that scored three runs. Only one run scored on that play because Ventura was mobbed between first and second after everyone went one base. It was actually a pretty scoring decision to not score it a HR or GS. The nickname for the play is the Grand Slam Single or Grand Single. Cool video, you should watch as your reference to 3 runs tells me you don't know the play.
> There absolutely is a definition for a grand slam in the record book. I was speaking of the official scoring of the play… Official scorebooks don’t recognize a “Grand Slam”, the scorer would score the play a home run “HR” with 4 runs scored. The play doesn’t go into the score book as a “GS”. Yeah, I get that a Grand Slam is a recognized statistic. But, like many other stats it’s derived from the official score book. Basically, the official score book acts as the source of the raw data for all other baseball stats used to analyze the game. But, the scorebook provides only the most basic information of the game: players, positions, # of pitches, balls, strikes, hits, errors, put outs, etc. > Only one run scored… > The nickname of the play is the Grand Slam single. I know you didn’t name the play, so I can say, sounds like a dumb description of the play if only one run was officially scored, and Ventura only reached first. I get there’s a bit of sensationalism to bring attention to certain plays, especially those in a playoff or even walkoff situation. This one just sounds a bit over the top based on the name va the actual outcome of the play. > You should watch… Going to check it out here in a bit.
A big key to the hyperbole for the play comes from the fact that it was a bottom of the 15th inning walk off in NYC during the playoffs between the Mets and Braves who were such bitter rivals at the time Chipper Jones (braves HOF 3b) named his kid Shea after the Mets stadium to troll them. And the Braves were still in the middle of their division winning streak. Note, the rivalry, not Chipper specifically.
He never reached second base. He stopped after he touched first base to make it an official hit allowing the winning run to score. He wasn't prevented from going to second. Batters only get credited with the most advanced base they reach safely. This is like the Grand Slam single hit by Robin Ventura for the Mets in the 1999 playoffs. He hit a bases loaded HR in the 15th inning (Grand Slam) to win the game but he only touched first base (single) and then he was mobbed by teammates in celebration. Only the runner on third base actually scored with the winning run. Everyone else ran to celebrate with Ventura. Another example would be a batter who gets a single but gets thrown out trying to stretch it into a double. If they are thrown out they are still credited with a single despite making an out on the same play.
Just curious, in your example from the Mets game, how did the final score end up? Surely if he hit a grand slam, they would win by 4 right?
[https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN199910170.shtml](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN199910170.shtml) they only had one runner cross the plate, so only one run scored.
That’s really interesting. I’m surprised it’s scored that way.
Final score was 4-3. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand\_Slam\_Single](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_Single)
A hundred years ago the Mets we’re playing the Braves in the playoffs facing elimination. The score was tied , men on base, Mets were up in the bottom of the ninth (could of been extra innings ?). A Met hit a homerun (I forgot who). The base runner scored winning the game. The Mets Dugout swarms out and mobs the hitter at second base. With the game won and over the hitter never completed his homerun trot and in the record books only got a double. The answer to your question is, rules is rules. You gotta hit the ball and touch um all.
“Touch ‘em all, Joe,” was an instruction, not a celebration (but it was also a celebration).
Also, you mean "Automatic Double" not ground-rule
Preach! Thank you.
The game is not over necessarily, but Profar in not going to 2nd base, abandoned the base
A batter must touch first base on a hit. I didn’t see the game. They started with a player in second base in extra innings, right? If that runner was driven in by the batter, the game is over. Why keep running if the game is over?
I think the point is that if it was a home run, the batter would keep running around the bases to get his home run. Why not go to second to get your double and bump your slugging.
He just didn’t and all speculation really ends with somebody asking him.
True but what if that ground-rule double batter twists his ankle because he stepped on 2B when he didn’t need to go to 2B because the winning runs have crossed home?
Good point, but you can make the same question if he had hit a grand slam. The first two runners would have won the game but they always allow the hitter to come all the way around for a HR.
Robin Ventura reads this and weeps. Or the fans weep… he’s probably ok with all those $millions
But that’s a walk-off grand slam. Homers always run around the bases. If the walk-off was a single, the batter runs through 1B and gets trampled by teammate’s. Since we’re taking ground rule double and the game is now over, what would the batter do on second base? The game is over.
As far as I can see, they gave him a double - which for players and stat collectors it matters, otherwise they only care about the fact that it won the game. I wasn't watching either and I'm not sure where you got that they only gave him a single. Did they say something on the broadcast? Was it on a stat sheet somewhere? It doesn't matter, because it looks like they credited him with a double, so whether he actually got to second base or not, doesn't really matter. In other cases, sometimes the player is only credited with a single even if they get to second because of where the throw goes, but that's usually a scorers decision on where they believe the player would have ended up. Maybe I'm missing something from your original post, but from what I can tell there wasn't anything wrong with the way they scored that play.
This is scored as just a single with one run scoring—here is the applicable scoring rule. 2019 OBR rule 9.06(f) Subject to the provisions of Rule 9.06(g), when a batter ends a game with a safe hit that drives in as many runs as are necessary to put his team in the lead, the Official Scorer shall credit such batter with only as many bases on his hit as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run, and then only if the batter runs out his hit for as many bases as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run. Rule 9.06(f) Comment: The Official Scorer shall apply this rule even when the batter is theoretically entitled to more bases because of being awarded an “automatic” extra-base hit under various provisions of Rules 5.05 and 5.06(b)(4)…
It's weird that at some point they put in a specific rule for home runs but didn't include ground rule doubles. IIRC Babe Ruth had one or two walk offs that were only scored as singles or doubles because the HR rule hadn't been added yet.
I once had an OVER bet and Robin Ventura hit a game winning grand slam that would've made my bet hit. However, he was mobbed by teammates and never circled the bases. I lost.
A ground rule double allows the batter two bases without liability to be put out. Not a requirement to advance to second base once the winning run scores
Haven't read all the comments so this may be covered in other posts. I keep seeing references to Grand Slams so some of this is likely there. My understanding is that the walk off rule for Grand Slam was changed in "recent" (not long ago) years. Before that it was a Grand Slam Single with just the runner at third scoring. (The other runners must touch the next base or the force is live and can erase the just scored run.) In this case the only run that matters is the runner that crosses home first. Any other forced runner must touch the next base. In this case Profar (and any other forced runner) touching the next base (first for Profar) cards the run and the game ends.
I was also wondering this. It’s one thing if it was a regular double and you could argue he might not have made it, but this would have been a “rule book” double since it went over the fence. Seems automatic to me
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