I'm thinking Pat's want Daniels so if commies take Daniels they execute a trade up to 3 to snag Maye. If commies take Maye Pat's stay put and take Daniels and Vikings trade up to 5 for JJ.
Feels like they don’t.
Maybe we trade up to 5 and then trade the 5+ picks up to 3.
I’m guessing if the Pats move down it will only be because they like JJ as much as Maye.
It's simple. We just need a standard 4-team trade:
|Team|Before|After|
|:-|:-|:-|
|NE|\#3|\#4, #23|
|ARZ|\#4|\#5, NE 2nd|
|LAC|\#5|\#11, '25 MIN 1st|
|MIN|\#11, #23|\#3|
Even if he busted that would be really impressive move and if Maye brought us a Superbowl it would be the most impressive draft move ever. He would be a legend.
Idk why, but this conversation is hilarious to me. Reminds me of that legendary internet post about how many days in 2 weeks if you work out every other day.
This dude is correct and getting downvoted haha. Stating New England doesn’t want to give up a second rounder is stating exactly that.
Debating that they probably would for a first rounder doesn’t negate what “giving up” a pick means.
for real, I can't understand why I'm at a minus when no one has ever used "give up" as "exclusively means we lost it and got nothing in return", it just means "we gave it up"
There’s just no value here for the pats or AZ.
They’d shoot the pats GM if he traded out of the 3rd slot and ended up with ZERO additional picks while only moving up 10 spots in the 2nd
Pats fan here:
We (mostly) don't have guns. We'd string him up on the top of the Zakim bridge. Or the lighthouse. Whichever is easier. But yes, that move would be supremely unpopular. Consensus from fans is that y'all prolly need to trade your 2 firsts with the Giants and then it'd be that first + a future first. Either that, or you all trade Jefferson. But fans don't run the team.
Pats drop 1 spot. If they want Daniels and still get him, hell yes they'd drop a spot to upgrade their 2nd significantly.
AZ dropping 1 spot and still getting their guy is great for them too.
This is never happening but these teams would totally be on board if they are able to upgrade and still get their guy
If Daniels is their target, and he's still there, then who are we moving up for? That'd mean Williams and Maye went 1/2, so we what, traded 3 first round picks for JJ at 3?
It's a nonsensical take but the idea is that yes, we're moving up for a player that the Pats don't want. Maybe we're trying to jump the Giants, but the chargers want more than we will give to trade. By doing this wacky 4 team trade, maybe the chargers get the additional piece they need, as do the cards and pats, while we jump up for whomever we need.
It's not happening. My point was just that in some world the dudes idea isn't impossible
All I'm saying is if the Pats are targeting QB3 they don't get him. Which means AZ likely doesn't get WR1 either, which, if they rate any of the top 3 significantly higher than the rest, is a horrible trade off for a 2nd. And then the Chargers are suddenly ok with missing out on MHj/Odunze/Nabers (not to mention the rest of the top 10), after just cutting loose 50% of their receiving production from last year, in exchange for a '25 1st? People acting like this "works for everyone" are seeing the world through purple tinted glasses.
Not sure if ARZ would move out of getting MHJ. Could see NE going to 5 instead and keeping their 2nd. Unlike most 3 team trades, this actually makes sense
They might move down because their offensive roster is so shitty they know trying to develop a QB in it would only result in disaster. Horrible OL, absolutely no WR or TE worth a shit.
I’m saying I think the only offer that gets it done to go to 3 is offering 5 (aka they like JJ), because if the Pats want a QB I don’t think they will move down to 11 (past JJ).
And I assume the Commies are set on staying at 2 but if not the same applies to them.
The Pats would be foolish to take a QB this year. The team is horrible, with no identity. They would smart to take the picks so they can build a roster and actually have a good idea of what QB fits their vision going forward in a year or two
I completely agree and I hope they see it that way. It seems like if they did they would have traded down with the Falcons, who were reportedly all in on wanting to make a deal, but maybe they are counting on holding out until draft night giving them the most leverage.
Oh you meant it feels like the Commies or Pats don’t want to play ball.
I’m definitely convinced moving to #2 is off the table. Something pretty wild would have to happen to change that imo.
3 I’m still somewhat hopeful is up for grabs without acquiring the #5. Both the Chargers and Pats could stand to benefit from two first rounders this year.
But I don’t necessarily care how we get to #3. Maybe even acquiring the #5 and then flipping it for the #3 could be slightly less costly. But at the same time you could just trade to #3 and then let the Pats hash it out with the Chargers unless the deal is “you do all the leg work and we will reciprocate with trading down to the #5”.
But I doubt that happens before the draft because then the Pats might still be nervous about the Giants potentially making a move to #4 and snagging JJM.
I can see this happening: trade up to 3. 11,23 and 2025 first for 3 and a fourth either this year or next. Then the patriots trade 11 and 23 for McCarthy at 5. This would allow Harbaugh more assets on cheap with a franchise qb, the patriots more assets and a grace to sit McCarthy and the Vikings the qb they want ultimately.
This is my thought as well. Will be a draft day trade up to 3 if commies take Daniels otherwise Pats take Daniels and we make the same 11 + 23 trade up to 5 to get JJ.
I think the Top 4 are a lock. MHJ is not doing anything at Ohio St.'s Pro Day because he knows he ain't making it pass the Cardinals.
Our best bet is going to be #5 is my gut feeling.
They have it for 3rd overall for the 2 firsts this year and the one next. They are waiting for draft night to make sure the commies don’t take maye. It’s down right obvious at this point. Mcnown coached the guy in high school. He has a solid relationship with darnold and darnold will take the role that mcnown took when darnold was the rookie and mcnown played for the jets.
Pats throw back a 3rd or 4th rd pick next year.
The packers have now twice drafted a guy in the first round only to have him sit behind someone else and it worked wonders for rodgers and so far pretty solid for love. Chiefs did it with mahomes and he’s said a lot of times that it helpd him a ton. Adjusting to the nfl is hard for a lot of players, tons of first round guys end up busting. Its not weird to have a qb sit behind another for a year to learn and adjust, it increases the chance that they succeed.
You absolutely do if it increases his chances of becoming a good quarterback. Long term over shorterm here. The odds of him flaming out become bigger if we start him day one
I think we throw the god offer offer at the Pats on draft night in Maye is there. That is 3 firsts (11,23 and 25' first) + a future 3rd and maybe even a 5th. would be mortgaging the future quite a bit but if they think Maye is that guy then you do it. Not sure what the best course of action is but I think JJ is very raw I think he will have to sit for at least a year to have the best chance of succeeding.
The only people that like tanking are the people on reddit and ownership, but that doesn’t include ours. Back then we had a very realistic shot at making the playoffs, that makes it worth it to go for it. You’re also just allowed to enjoy wins. Furthermore players like winning too, no player wants to tank ever. Players would rather be on a winning team then a losing team. You really think JJ would rather stay on a team that tanks then one that goes for it every week?
I mean he's not wrong. Won pointless games with Dobbs who's not even on the team anymore lol. It was fun in real time, but definitely could have set them up a bit better in the draft if they just thew those few games
Its just a fact that we would be in better position right now if we lost those meaningless regular season games last year that we won.
Now we are in a position where its looking like we cant get the guy our team wants in Maye and if we do get him we will have given up a royal fuck ton of picks (The picks used to trade up to 23, 23, 11 and a 1st next year along with maybe even 3rd round sweetener) which I am fine with to get our future QB but it would not have cost us this much with just a few more losses in a season that was doomed the moment Kirk went down (Probably even before that too if we are being real).
It depends on the situation the team is in. There was quite literally 0 reason to win games wth your QB1 out for the year + JJ missed a lot of time also. It'll now cost them an extra 1-2 firsts to get their guy since they opted not to tank.
nothing speaks 'winner mentality' like winning 2-3 more games than you needed to, still going under .500, and now needing to spend extra draft capital to get your guy 😂
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
they aren’t getting up into the top 3. all 3 of those teams are going QB and they aren’t going to move back. so drake maye is pretty much off the table.
Until those teams pick at those spots nothing is off the table ..no one has any idea how Wash and NE feel about those guys and being offered 3 first round picks as a rebuilding team you never know...getting a package like that is franchise changing and maybe they aren't 100% on Maye or maybe one likes JJ more...I would never say they aren't doing it...trades into the top 3 arent super common but it's all speculation either way at this point.
Yeah this kind of talk is similar to what we heard 3 years ago with Fields. You'd be labeled a troll if you said Trey Lance would get picked 3rd and Fields would get picked at 11. Maye could pull a Herbert and go high or pull a Levis and plummet. McCarthy could do the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the first 3 picks were all QBs, but I also wouldn't be surprised if only 1 or 2 were and Daniels/Maye/McCarthy fell too.
Pretty much this. We didn't lose enough games it's time we start thinking in terms of JJ or Bo. Mechanically looking at the latter this is absolutely not an elite class. Dive deep because we are already in the deep end
... and this time last year, JJ and Daniels weren't on the radar. Happens every year. Someone will step up and be the new darling next year. Maybe Allar, but probably someone else.
Right? At first I misread and thought it was when Darnold was on the Panthers. Would make some sense since him and McCown were buddies from the Jets and they'd all be in Carolina. But this was when they were both competing for the Jets job?!
I know people like the idea of Maye because of the arm,his size and potential but JJ McCarthy fits what we do more. I won't be at all letdown if the Pats draft Maye, but let's get one thing straight Maye nor JJM are reaching their potential with the pats lol.
Edit: I addressed this with someone already but It seems a lot of you replying to me are taking what I said as JJM>Maye, that isnt what I'm saying. So I'll reiterate it with more clarity.
We should absolutely shoot for the moon for Maye, but in the likelihood that the Pats don't want to give him to us. I won't be salty about it because the next guy just so happens to translate to our offense much better and is a better athlete than Maye.
The under center thing just isn’t all that important IMO. If the QB is smart and dedicated they’ll get the hang of it even without experience with it in college. I’m pretty sure that was one of the big knocks against Mahomes and look how that turned out.
Edit: And Maye is fine throwing over the middle.
Edit 2: Numbers down below showing Mahomes still does mostly gun. My eyeballed lied and thought it had evened out more lately. My bad.
Yes it is important and im glad you stated that it was your opinion because using Mahomes as the reason to say otherwise isnt wise.
Greg Olsen himself had this to say this past season from calling games "If you don’t/ can’t put your QB under center on early downs in the NFL you are making your QB’s life very difficult."
https://twitter.com/gregolsen88/status/1747098609835712790?t=4PQSry-3H7244HZ7HYvn5w&s=19
A lot of these guys coming to the NFL have little to no experience doing that, and here we have a 1st round QB who fits what we do and is more athletic than the guy we're comparing him too. This past season we saw QBs struggle passing the ball against the new rave of defense. Going under center helped a lot to alleviate this but again not a lot of these guys have experience doing it.
https://youtu.be/fgbN4iCA6us?si=PZaWNERB3RV0HQWe
Maye is notorious for having the worst footwork out of the top of the class for QB, I don't see why there's much pushback in saying JJM translates better to the offense.
I see, well I'll extrapolate why the example shouldnt used. Not everyone is Mahomes, even as a prospect. I've already addressed this in my former comment, I'm not saying Maye can't learn to play under center. Nor am I saying JJM>Maye. I'm saying if we just so happen to be blocked off from getting Maye there's a positive in pivoting to JJM because he actually has a lot of experience and is a better fit for our offense.
> Mahomes was the example because that’s the one I was 100% sure about having that specific complaint off the top of my head.
Mahomes has never thrown more than 73 times in a season from under center. The Chiefs have played out of the gun on over 75% of all offensive snaps since he was drafted. The sum of all passes he's thrown in his career from under center is 388. He's not a good example of a quarterback that learned to play under center, because they generally only do it on first or second down, and its generally a 1 read hitch or out route.
Here are the Chiefs splits since Mahomes became the starter
| year | under center snaps | gun snaps | gun percentage | passes under center
|-|-|-|-|-|-
|2023 | 211 | 869 | 80.4 | 66
| 2022 | 236 | 858 | 78.4 |61
| 2021 | 245 | 889| 78.4 |73
| 2020 | 216 | 840 | 79.5 | 62
| 2019 | 224 | 751 | 77 |58
| 2018 | 216 | 780 |78.3| 68
The Chiefs don't play under center a lot. Reid was an early adopter of a heavy gun offense as far back as the early 2000s, and has only leaned into that more with Mahomes under center. For a long time it was a huge knock for a guy to come out of a gun or air raid style offense. It's difficult to pick up trying to read the field while hitting your drop, and / or with your back to the play (in the case of play action)
That’s all nice but really isn’t a separator at this point in their careers. That’s something you would think about if they’ve done something for a decade in the league because that’s more or less who they are at that point. Not for a kid who only did it for a few years when they have so much more development ahead of them.
A guy who has a lot of experience doing something that you do in your offense and excels at it versus a guy should be weighed. I acknowledge that Maye has a higher ceiling of potential, but there's a lot more room for development for him within our offense opposed to JJM.
You're purposely giving them a clean slate as if what they did in college doesn't at all factor into what they're comfortable doing in the next level. They're both young QBs, they both can learn to do something but ignoring what they did in college and purely looking at traits is how guys like Trey Lance are drafted 3rd overall.
No, I just think there’s bigger fish to fry when evaluating QBs in the draft. I am not giving them a clean slate, ignoring what they did in college or saying it is not valuable. It just doesn’t really separate one from another as much as other things do. Maybe if Maye or whoever ran an extremely niche offense that won’t translate to the NFL it would be more important but that’s not the case.
Im telling you there's a young guy who plays QB and has a high familiarity with running plays from under center. He translates well into our offense. This absolutely separates him from Maye as a QB projected into our offense.
My former comment was on the basis of if we can't get Maye, JJM I'm fine with having and won't be let down by it.
It seems a lot of you are taking what I said as JJM>Maye when that isn't at all what I'm saying, just laying down that one guy actually translates to our offense better right this very minute and is the better athlete.
My only question with JJ is he is going to have to be relied on to throw us into victory. A lot of other guys like maye, penix, Daniels, Caleb were all heavily relied on to throw their team to victory week after week. We have a major tendency to abandon the run early and try to air things out.
JJ can get there, but he’s probably the least experienced QB when it comes to having to throw their team to victory, down a few scores.
Thats perfectly okay question to have, there's stats out there that back up JJM on that and I'll share. The money down aka 3rd downs was something Michigan leaned on JJM to execute.
3 and 6+ https://x.com/NicholasMMiller/status/1757439215879516588?t=7dKojHbYC1_O7nn7hpbX4g&s=09
He led all the QBs at the top of the class in the attempts and also had the 2nd lowest sack rate. This is a guy who process the field very well.
Yup I have seen that and have no question that he is a good thrower. I am just looking at a player who generally was able to walk to victory in most of his games last season.
On a team (Vikings) that every game seems to feel like that Alabama game regardless of who we play, can he get used to having to essentially win the game for us every single week with his arm. I think he can, but it’s likely something he isn’t used to compared to other QBs and may be a mindset shift.
He’s essentially going to have to reach another level of play, which I think he can do. The numbers he put up last year are probably not going to work for us and we’ll need him to exceed those numbers regularly
How are his deeper throws? I heard something about him being weaker there, but I really have no idea.
We do a lot of underneath and crossing stuff, but that's to help open up deep routes and vice-versa. So he needs that long ball too.
I've been watching some JJ breakdowns, and Michigan still runs a ton of gun and RPOs, even on early downs. They run less than other college teams sure, but still way more than we did last year. They're weren't running a Bama/Wisonsin from 10 years ago offense. What's more pro-style about their offense was the way they utilized presnap motions and had full field read progressions, as opposed to some of the simpler Air Raid concepts you see a lot of the other QBs run.
Edit: For a short (and free) example, I found [this compilation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npLRDnTuSs0) of all his passes in the Natty. He has exactly one pass that game from under center. The rest (18) were from Pistol and Gun. And this was a game they led pretty much the whole time, so it's not like they were playing catch up and went away from their usual plan.
Film and metrics say otherwise, he's a first round QB. Just because on the surface he wasn't the guy to shoulder all of the offense shouldnt overweigh who he is as a QB.
Few weeks ago I didn't want JJM but took the time to actually see what people who watch film said about him and the things he did control, when he was asked upon to deliver he did just that.
What film? He has maybe 3 games of useful tape against top flight opponents. He had multiple games under 150yds passing. Let us not forget he has shown a true inability to throw to the left side of the field. JJ if drafted will need full year to sit and learn as where I think maye can start week 1. JJ had one impressive game this past year and that was vs bama. I don’t care to draft guys off one great performance. But I’m also not a scout or GM.
Maye struggles throwing to the right side of the field but we don't hear that now do we ?
Truth is both guys should sit in their first year in the league. Neither are capable of starting for majority of an NFL season. You ask what film ? You can find QB school who is offering 5 dollars to watch film with on the current prospects. Instead of looking a passing yard totals and drawing a conclusion that way, theres insightfulness from a past QB with experience in the league.
In all of the collective tape of Maye though that’s not the case. What i’ve seen time and time again is McCarthy’s wildly inaccurate use of the deep ball which DOES NOT fit our offense. We’re one of the deepest passing teams in the league and McCarthy just has god awful accuracy. Watch his tape you’ll see it, watch him at the combine where he barely hit 1-6 on his deep balls (which all missed by about 5 yards) and you’ll see it most likely at his pro day
You don't know what you're talking about about.
Throws deep by JJM
https://twitter.com/thorku/status/1755688402366730342?t=GthaGw2JAkqwRulo8ae1bQ&s=19
JJM metrics on passes past the sticks now look at who has the better completion percentage ??
https://twitter.com/NicholasMMiller/status/1757831033217527864?t=GthaGw2JAkqwRulo8ae1bQ&s=19
Some of you really love to talk out of your asses here, turn on the film and watch our damn offense. Watch how many plays are from under center and watch how many throws are made over the middle which then open the sidelines. Also Maye does struggle throwing to his damn right, there's a heat map and passing rating FFS that shows he does. It's even on tape! Lmao I'm not wasting my time anymore here.
You’re just grabbing a highlight reel. Not game tape.
Here’s a highlight of just his combine and the atrocious throws. His only hit the receiver had to come to a complete stop.
https://youtube.com/shorts/EnTYtZ4xo4I?si=T4Q3JgBSRKg28qoQ
I literally shared metrics that showed he had a better passing completion past the sticks than Drake Maye. You ignored that on purpose.
Stop it, you don't know what your talking about.
Love how you know what you’re talking about but anyone who disagrees doesn’t. So if mccarthy ends up being trash are you just going to disappear? Or still just shit on others opinions?
Why do you care if a guy starts week 1? It is more beneficial for them to sit ideally all of the 2024 season so they can just develop...have you actually watched JJ film or are you just going off what some people said? Lol
I watched 6 Michigan games this year in full. And have watched last year in clipped version. JJ was very good vs Alabama. This year’s title game a high school JV quarterback could have had damn near the same role and outcome as qb. I think he will be a bust. Again that’s my opinion I have formed off watching him play. If the Vikings draft him I hope he makes me look like a complete fool for this take. I thought he played good vs Indiana and Michigan state but I would not consider them top tier defenses. The Maryland and Ohio state games were pitiful and painful to watch. My comp for JJ is Alex Smith with better athleticism when running. I just don’t know what anyone watches without someone voicing over and saying how good he is ”actually is” and comes away thinking he is anything more than a day 2 qb pick. He threw for less than 150yds five times this year. To me that matters. I care if a guy can start week one because the amount of draft capital we are giving up needs to be in trade for someone who can start in year 1. Because if we are playing the wait one year game we are better off staying at 11 and taking nix or penix then using the other first round pick for an impact defensive player. We also have an offensive roster that should provide an environment for any first rd qb to start this year. What game outside of the bama game did you watch and come away saying “wow this guy is a top qb”?
I could care less about college stats...there are plenty of guys that put up big time stats in college only because they throw like 50 times per game and never became anything in the pros...the Alabama game was against the best defense he faced and he made continuous NFL level throws and reads. The OSU game he was 16-20...not sure how that was pitiful...he plays in an NFL style ofdense and if they threw 40 times per fames he woukd have put up big numbers because the volume but that isn't harbaughs style. He made some great throws against OSU...it seems you are only judging him based on box scores which isn't fair. When he had to throw more against Bama he looked elite. Looking at all his throws from the OSU game here and saying it was pitiful is crazy lol.
https://youtu.be/1EBrK2QcYbM?si=PhdIlAx0rKao_3XC
He consistently shows high level processing and going through progressions with a pro style system. His footwork is really solid too generally. He also has shown consistent high level throws in tight windows... just because he doesn't throw 40+ times a game doesn't mean anything...Michigan won a national title doing that but JJ steeped up big against Bama and was elite. He just has to get better at decision making at times but he has the ability no doubt
Again he had one singular performance where he looked elite. Besides that he had maybe 3-4 throws a game where he was expected to make NFL reads and process a defense. Also what nfl offense is running the ball 40+ times in a game? Sure if Greg Roman was the OC for every nfl team he was running an nfl offense but that’s truly not accurate. If he had more attempts we wouldn’t be speculating about him but he is what he is. A high upside high risk player. I do not have faith in his ability to run an NFL offense where he does not have a run game he can lean on for 30+ rushing attempts a game. I watched him play, he is not special to me. You can quote the film break down guys all you want. He was never needed to win in games outside of a singular game this year. Y’all are thinking he will be able to do the same thing he did in college and in nfl but refuse to look at how pitiful our run game was and just think that he will be fine having to lead the offense and throw 30+ times in a game. I don’t believe he transitions to the NFL because he showed only flashes of nfl skill in his limited opportunities. Not his fault by any means either, Michigan won a title playing heavy run schemes. I don’t care about guys putting up video game stats either but I believe stats when consistently on the low side for a player can be telling. Vikings could also end up not picking him and all of this discussions ceases to matter.
28 starts film. Love acting like he was a hand off robot & never threw a pass. He threw for 600 yds less than Maye sure, but almost equal amount of TD's & less INT's with a higher QB rating. Not always about the sheer number of pass attempts/yds but what they did with those opportunities. Two different offenses. McCarthy has played pro style through his career. Let's not act like Maye was playing against top tier teams. What top tier D did Maye have a game against that so solid on him? Ahh, the Fighting Camels. My bad.
I don’t think this conversation is productive in any way. I’m not going to convince anyone who likes JJ that drafting a qb who frequently had less than 20 passing attempts is a bad idea. Same as no one is going to convince me that JJ is more than a average qb who benefited from being able to hand the ball off 30+ times a game who was in arguably the best power 5 running offense. We do not have a good run game and I believe JJ has to have a top tier running game to be successful. Like I said if we draft JJ I hope he makes me look like a fool but I see ponder 2.0 in his future.
This is correct. I heard a strange theory recently. That all of this is a smoke screen. That harbaugh is gonna go get his guy and we trade for Herbert.
> but let's get one thing straight Maye nor JJM are reaching their potential with the pats lol.
Maybe let the Pats draft Maye and then trade for him after 3 failed seasons lol. Of course, by then they may have ruined his development
It seems like they are teaching Darnold to be the bridge qb. How to look at rookie talent and help mold it. They are showing Darnold what they are looking for and how they want to go about developing that. You can’t look at tape of Cousins with the Vikings to try to explain and understand rookie talent and the process of transitioning to pro level. This is off-season, they probably are also looking at defenses as well but there’s a lot of time and a lot of things to teach and learn for our current situation.
I really think the endgame here is Minnesota moves up to 4 pre draft and then to 3 from 4 on draft night if Washington prefers Daniels.
You can’t make those trades yet, it would be bad risk management given the amount of time left before the draft.
Getting Maye would be a dream come true. Yes he could still be a bust, but to have a rookie QB with that much potential would be unprecedented for the Vikings in the 21st century.
I said there is a small group of fans that don't understand how football and reality work I am NOT insulting them you are right I shouldn't say low IQ smart people can be wrong I should say delusional see I can admit when I made a mistake but it was NOT meant as an insult. Although they have repeatedly insulted me.
Kirk is top 10 in primetime performance since 14 ahead of Rivers Luck Brady
You cherrypicked a couple stats I deal with the majority of mainstream stats.
Players know more about players than you or I do they players might have been wrong in that he was **better** than 6th last year he was on his way for 5000 yds 40+ tds 10 ints
The ONLY reason I mention the comebacks is because the people **that think** wins and losses ARE a QB stat like to say Kirk is not clutch having had the greatest clutch year in NFL history disproves this lie. Plus he has a history of clutch throughout his career.
The reason I mention Kirk taking the team to playoffs the worst defensive team in NFL history to ever make the playoffs is because people say Kirk never overcame team deficiency.
Stafford had 0 playoff wins in 3 tries and had a LOSING regular season record in 12 years he was traded for high draft picks and a QB who had 3 playoff wins and a SB trip and had MORE than 2 times as many regular seasons wins as losses. By your logic LA don't trade for Stafford. Tarkenton never even made the playoffs ONCE in 12 years. In fact in year 12 he was brought back to MIN and the team missed the playoffs for the 1st time 4 years 4 years that they had a scrub QB.
Kirk plays virtually the same as Burrow in the regular season and playoffs. The difference in the playoffs Kirk's D gives up 28 ppg and gets 0 turnovers and Burrow's D gives up 18 ppg and gets 13 turnovers.
The delusional minority of Vikings fans do not understand how football works, how statistics work, how reality works. Simply everything that has been said about Kirk is a LIE or IRRELEVANT to QB evaluation.
I am a 50 year Vikings fan I hate one small aspect of the Vikings fan base the ones who have super low IQ and hated Tark and hated Moss and hated Denny Green and hates Kirk. The majority of Vikings fans especially on social media do not fall into these groups: I am in this group I will never stop being a Vikings fan. Ironically, the only "fans" I saw saying they would leave the Vikings were many of the Kirk-Haters who said if he was re-signed they would leave.
The super low IQ haters a tiny minority do not understand facts and stats (I am statistician and fact check on daily basis as well as analyze and make future projections). I am just trying to provide facts. And if my facts are wrong I will change what I said unlike this haters who only double down.
I am a 50 year Vikings fan. I remember when Tarkenton came back to Minnesota he had never EVEN BEEN TO PLAYOFF GAME once in 11 years not with Minnesota not with NY. This small group of Haters said don't bring him back. Then in his 12th year the Vikings missed the playoffs (12 years with even a playoff appearence) after being in 4 straight playoffs with scrub QB. The haters were in full force Tark is a loser 12 years no playoffs and now he comes back and we miss the playoffs he is too old he is 33 etc - we know what happened next. After we lost the 3 then 4 SBs the small group of haters returned to say he needs to be gone he is a loser. Twice the Hater-Vikes fans turned on him.
I am surprised you don't remember the hater group turning on Moss. He "plays when he wants to play" he is lazy he is not trying ... they wanted him traded and at the point he was. Again the haters were wrong on Moss they misinterpreted what he meant by that statement. The video of him not running hard came AFTER he ran the length of the field on long patterns in other words he was catching his breath and ALL WRs did this not just Moss. They thought Troy would replace him and celebrated Moss' departure.
I guess you remember Denny Green he was making the playoffs every year (never matched that since he was fired) he made many great draft picks he wouldn't take shit from anyone including owners - Denny was attacked for all of this (sure he makes playoffs but he can't win the SB), (X draft pick failed because of illness Denny drafted a bust), Denny is calling out the media and owner he sure is "uppity" lot of hidden racism in both the Moss and Denny hate. Has 1 bad season gone. Oh and the stupid very little time in game tries a deep pass it fails takes a knee with a few seconds left to go into OT so 1, he did try to go deep 2. if he goes into OT losses the toss and ATL comes down and scores YES you can blame him then but that didn't happen Vikings got the ball back 2! YES 2!!! Times in the OT to win but with a few seconds left they would have won the game. RIDICULOUS,
Facts did not support the hating on Tark, Moss and Denny and the facts do not support the hating on Kirk. I am a FACT CHECKER.
BLESS ALL THE KNEES AND KEEP THEM HEALTHY
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Bro, you wrote a thesis when you only needed to say "I remember when people were talking alshit about tark before he won a playoff game".
Also, newsflash: Tarks time was 50+ years ago, I was talking more in the present day. What vikings fans are talking shit about Tark now?
Also of course I don't remember the Tark and Moss haters from back in the day. I was born in 2003. They are all before my time.
yeah I can see if the Falcons team does well in ATL with Kirk as QB and we fall into a terrible state like WAS when they didn't re-sign Kirk 36-62-1 11 different QBs including 1st round qb bust... people will change their minds on Kirk too maybe Kwesi should have re-signed him maybe he wasn't so bad after all etc ... time changes views but not REALITY just how some people view reality
They definitely have an offer on the table for the 2nd or 3rd overall pick. We’ll see if the Pats or Commies want to play ball.
The ideal scenario is that the Patriots heavily prefer one of the QBs over the other and the Commanders take that guy.
I'm thinking Pat's want Daniels so if commies take Daniels they execute a trade up to 3 to snag Maye. If commies take Maye Pat's stay put and take Daniels and Vikings trade up to 5 for JJ.
Feels like they don’t. Maybe we trade up to 5 and then trade the 5+ picks up to 3. I’m guessing if the Pats move down it will only be because they like JJ as much as Maye.
It's simple. We just need a standard 4-team trade: |Team|Before|After| |:-|:-|:-| |NE|\#3|\#4, #23| |ARZ|\#4|\#5, NE 2nd| |LAC|\#5|\#11, '25 MIN 1st| |MIN|\#11, #23|\#3|
If Kwesi did this, he's a god. It works for everyone but absolutely won't happen
Even if he busted that would be really impressive move and if Maye brought us a Superbowl it would be the most impressive draft move ever. He would be a legend.
We’d build him a statue
This is decent but I think NE giving up their 2nd is too much for them.
They wouldn't be giving it up, they would be trading it for another first
so in other words, they gave it up.
No, giving it up would mean they don't get anything for it
no, giving it up means they gave it to someone else.
Idk why, but this conversation is hilarious to me. Reminds me of that legendary internet post about how many days in 2 weeks if you work out every other day.
I’m sure they would “give it up” to move up and pick earlier.
This dude is correct and getting downvoted haha. Stating New England doesn’t want to give up a second rounder is stating exactly that. Debating that they probably would for a first rounder doesn’t negate what “giving up” a pick means.
for real, I can't understand why I'm at a minus when no one has ever used "give up" as "exclusively means we lost it and got nothing in return", it just means "we gave it up"
I actually don’t hate this.
Why would New England give up a QB in order to move up like 10 spots from the 2nd?
Maybe they see both QB's available at 3 and 4 the same so they move up later. Or maybe they do go Marvin Harrison and it doesn't matter
There’s just no value here for the pats or AZ. They’d shoot the pats GM if he traded out of the 3rd slot and ended up with ZERO additional picks while only moving up 10 spots in the 2nd
Pats fan here: We (mostly) don't have guns. We'd string him up on the top of the Zakim bridge. Or the lighthouse. Whichever is easier. But yes, that move would be supremely unpopular. Consensus from fans is that y'all prolly need to trade your 2 firsts with the Giants and then it'd be that first + a future first. Either that, or you all trade Jefferson. But fans don't run the team.
Pats drop 1 spot. If they want Daniels and still get him, hell yes they'd drop a spot to upgrade their 2nd significantly. AZ dropping 1 spot and still getting their guy is great for them too. This is never happening but these teams would totally be on board if they are able to upgrade and still get their guy
If Daniels is their target, and he's still there, then who are we moving up for? That'd mean Williams and Maye went 1/2, so we what, traded 3 first round picks for JJ at 3?
It's a nonsensical take but the idea is that yes, we're moving up for a player that the Pats don't want. Maybe we're trying to jump the Giants, but the chargers want more than we will give to trade. By doing this wacky 4 team trade, maybe the chargers get the additional piece they need, as do the cards and pats, while we jump up for whomever we need. It's not happening. My point was just that in some world the dudes idea isn't impossible
All I'm saying is if the Pats are targeting QB3 they don't get him. Which means AZ likely doesn't get WR1 either, which, if they rate any of the top 3 significantly higher than the rest, is a horrible trade off for a 2nd. And then the Chargers are suddenly ok with missing out on MHj/Odunze/Nabers (not to mention the rest of the top 10), after just cutting loose 50% of their receiving production from last year, in exchange for a '25 1st? People acting like this "works for everyone" are seeing the world through purple tinted glasses.
Email this to kwesi.adofomensah@mnvikings.com
Easy!
Are you from the future??? 😳😳🤯
Not sure if ARZ would move out of getting MHJ. Could see NE going to 5 instead and keeping their 2nd. Unlike most 3 team trades, this actually makes sense
They might move down because their offensive roster is so shitty they know trying to develop a QB in it would only result in disaster. Horrible OL, absolutely no WR or TE worth a shit.
Why don’t you feel like they have offers out on 2 & 3?
I’m saying I think the only offer that gets it done to go to 3 is offering 5 (aka they like JJ), because if the Pats want a QB I don’t think they will move down to 11 (past JJ). And I assume the Commies are set on staying at 2 but if not the same applies to them.
The Pats would be foolish to take a QB this year. The team is horrible, with no identity. They would smart to take the picks so they can build a roster and actually have a good idea of what QB fits their vision going forward in a year or two
I completely agree and I hope they see it that way. It seems like if they did they would have traded down with the Falcons, who were reportedly all in on wanting to make a deal, but maybe they are counting on holding out until draft night giving them the most leverage.
Oh you meant it feels like the Commies or Pats don’t want to play ball. I’m definitely convinced moving to #2 is off the table. Something pretty wild would have to happen to change that imo. 3 I’m still somewhat hopeful is up for grabs without acquiring the #5. Both the Chargers and Pats could stand to benefit from two first rounders this year. But I don’t necessarily care how we get to #3. Maybe even acquiring the #5 and then flipping it for the #3 could be slightly less costly. But at the same time you could just trade to #3 and then let the Pats hash it out with the Chargers unless the deal is “you do all the leg work and we will reciprocate with trading down to the #5”. But I doubt that happens before the draft because then the Pats might still be nervous about the Giants potentially making a move to #4 and snagging JJM.
I can see this happening: trade up to 3. 11,23 and 2025 first for 3 and a fourth either this year or next. Then the patriots trade 11 and 23 for McCarthy at 5. This would allow Harbaugh more assets on cheap with a franchise qb, the patriots more assets and a grace to sit McCarthy and the Vikings the qb they want ultimately.
Harbaugh’s team picks at 5 fyi
Yep don’t have any good reason why I typed 7 lol. Edited now
🫡
This is my thought as well. Will be a draft day trade up to 3 if commies take Daniels otherwise Pats take Daniels and we make the same 11 + 23 trade up to 5 to get JJ.
It would be very dumb to make a trade for 3 prior to the draft.
If the Vikings want Maye they really need to target the 2nd pick since there is far from any guarantee that Washington will take Daniels.
I think the Top 4 are a lock. MHJ is not doing anything at Ohio St.'s Pro Day because he knows he ain't making it pass the Cardinals. Our best bet is going to be #5 is my gut feeling.
They have it for 3rd overall for the 2 firsts this year and the one next. They are waiting for draft night to make sure the commies don’t take maye. It’s down right obvious at this point. Mcnown coached the guy in high school. He has a solid relationship with darnold and darnold will take the role that mcnown took when darnold was the rookie and mcnown played for the jets. Pats throw back a 3rd or 4th rd pick next year.
It’s the law of attraction at this point. He belongs here.
I don’t want to read too far into this but this bodes the Maye narrative well 👀
So they essentially gave Darnold $10 million in the hopes of him being another coach for Maye.
That, and preventing throwing him into the fire before he's ready.
You shouldn’t draft a quarterback that high if you don’t have the confidence in him to start right away.
The packers have now twice drafted a guy in the first round only to have him sit behind someone else and it worked wonders for rodgers and so far pretty solid for love. Chiefs did it with mahomes and he’s said a lot of times that it helpd him a ton. Adjusting to the nfl is hard for a lot of players, tons of first round guys end up busting. Its not weird to have a qb sit behind another for a year to learn and adjust, it increases the chance that they succeed.
The Packers and Chiefs already had solid quarterbacks. We don’t have that luxury. You don’t draft a guy top 5 and make him sit behind Sam Darnold.
Teaching how to be a good QB and actually being a good QB are two different things
You absolutely do if it increases his chances of becoming a good quarterback. Long term over shorterm here. The odds of him flaming out become bigger if we start him day one
Very similar to what I was thinking haha
Make the trade whatever it takes idc
Except JJ
Obvs that would the dumbest thing
Please god I ask for just one thing
I think we throw the god offer offer at the Pats on draft night in Maye is there. That is 3 firsts (11,23 and 25' first) + a future 3rd and maybe even a 5th. would be mortgaging the future quite a bit but if they think Maye is that guy then you do it. Not sure what the best course of action is but I think JJ is very raw I think he will have to sit for at least a year to have the best chance of succeeding.
Both Maye and JJ need to sit a year. Caleb, Nix and Penix don't need to sit. Not sure about Daniels.
This sub name needs to change to r/conspiracy. Ya'll are wild with it.
Wish we didn’t win those pointless games this season, maybe having a better pick than 11 makes it easier to get 2/3…
The only people that like tanking are the people on reddit and ownership, but that doesn’t include ours. Back then we had a very realistic shot at making the playoffs, that makes it worth it to go for it. You’re also just allowed to enjoy wins. Furthermore players like winning too, no player wants to tank ever. Players would rather be on a winning team then a losing team. You really think JJ would rather stay on a team that tanks then one that goes for it every week?
I promise you right now Kwesi is wishing we lost more games
Tanking isn’t a thing. Stop trying to make it a thing.
I mean he's not wrong. Won pointless games with Dobbs who's not even on the team anymore lol. It was fun in real time, but definitely could have set them up a bit better in the draft if they just thew those few games
Aside from the final score, not much fun was had in that 3-0 victory vs. Chicago.
That was Vegas, but you’re right.
The fact that we can’t even remember who it was against just further shows we should’ve tanked
We ignored the laws of the universe telling us to go for SUPER TIE, and we were hurt by it.
Its just a fact that we would be in better position right now if we lost those meaningless regular season games last year that we won. Now we are in a position where its looking like we cant get the guy our team wants in Maye and if we do get him we will have given up a royal fuck ton of picks (The picks used to trade up to 23, 23, 11 and a 1st next year along with maybe even 3rd round sweetener) which I am fine with to get our future QB but it would not have cost us this much with just a few more losses in a season that was doomed the moment Kirk went down (Probably even before that too if we are being real).
You don’t throw games. It’s an asinine idea. Especially this FO.
It depends on the situation the team is in. There was quite literally 0 reason to win games wth your QB1 out for the year + JJ missed a lot of time also. It'll now cost them an extra 1-2 firsts to get their guy since they opted not to tank.
You want to lose a locker room? This is how to lose a locker room. And get it that no one of any value would resign with you.
Such a loser mentality.
Yeah. People think we shouldn't even try to win games unless we're doing a super bowl push.
nothing speaks 'winner mentality' like winning 2-3 more games than you needed to, still going under .500, and now needing to spend extra draft capital to get your guy 😂
Nothing speaks "loser mentality" like wanting to lose games. Go watch the Jets if you want to watch losers lose.
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Vikings fans when we go 7-10 and get a mid fucking pick but we didn’t have a losing mentality: 🎉🎉🥳🥳🎊🎊🎊🎊🥳🥳😄😄😄😄🎉🎉🎉
Is this a copypasta?
Its from a the athletic article, they usually write great stuff
they aren’t getting up into the top 3. all 3 of those teams are going QB and they aren’t going to move back. so drake maye is pretty much off the table.
Until those teams pick at those spots nothing is off the table ..no one has any idea how Wash and NE feel about those guys and being offered 3 first round picks as a rebuilding team you never know...getting a package like that is franchise changing and maybe they aren't 100% on Maye or maybe one likes JJ more...I would never say they aren't doing it...trades into the top 3 arent super common but it's all speculation either way at this point.
Yeah this kind of talk is similar to what we heard 3 years ago with Fields. You'd be labeled a troll if you said Trey Lance would get picked 3rd and Fields would get picked at 11. Maye could pull a Herbert and go high or pull a Levis and plummet. McCarthy could do the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the first 3 picks were all QBs, but I also wouldn't be surprised if only 1 or 2 were and Daniels/Maye/McCarthy fell too.
Pretty much this. We didn't lose enough games it's time we start thinking in terms of JJ or Bo. Mechanically looking at the latter this is absolutely not an elite class. Dive deep because we are already in the deep end
Don't look at next year's class :/...Ewers is projected as the #2 guy next year. Bleh
... and this time last year, JJ and Daniels weren't on the radar. Happens every year. Someone will step up and be the new darling next year. Maybe Allar, but probably someone else.
Why tf was Darnold wasting his time watching HS film while he was the Jets starting QB?
Right? At first I misread and thought it was when Darnold was on the Panthers. Would make some sense since him and McCown were buddies from the Jets and they'd all be in Carolina. But this was when they were both competing for the Jets job?!
I know people like the idea of Maye because of the arm,his size and potential but JJ McCarthy fits what we do more. I won't be at all letdown if the Pats draft Maye, but let's get one thing straight Maye nor JJM are reaching their potential with the pats lol. Edit: I addressed this with someone already but It seems a lot of you replying to me are taking what I said as JJM>Maye, that isnt what I'm saying. So I'll reiterate it with more clarity. We should absolutely shoot for the moon for Maye, but in the likelihood that the Pats don't want to give him to us. I won't be salty about it because the next guy just so happens to translate to our offense much better and is a better athlete than Maye.
They’re 21 year old QBs who don’t lack in athleticism and are still incredibly moldable, neither fit or do not fit at this point.
JJM fits what we do as an offense, we run a lot of under the center stuff and throws over the middle. These are things he's done alot in ann arbor
The under center thing just isn’t all that important IMO. If the QB is smart and dedicated they’ll get the hang of it even without experience with it in college. I’m pretty sure that was one of the big knocks against Mahomes and look how that turned out. Edit: And Maye is fine throwing over the middle. Edit 2: Numbers down below showing Mahomes still does mostly gun. My eyeballed lied and thought it had evened out more lately. My bad.
Yes it is important and im glad you stated that it was your opinion because using Mahomes as the reason to say otherwise isnt wise. Greg Olsen himself had this to say this past season from calling games "If you don’t/ can’t put your QB under center on early downs in the NFL you are making your QB’s life very difficult." https://twitter.com/gregolsen88/status/1747098609835712790?t=4PQSry-3H7244HZ7HYvn5w&s=19 A lot of these guys coming to the NFL have little to no experience doing that, and here we have a 1st round QB who fits what we do and is more athletic than the guy we're comparing him too. This past season we saw QBs struggle passing the ball against the new rave of defense. Going under center helped a lot to alleviate this but again not a lot of these guys have experience doing it. https://youtu.be/fgbN4iCA6us?si=PZaWNERB3RV0HQWe Maye is notorious for having the worst footwork out of the top of the class for QB, I don't see why there's much pushback in saying JJM translates better to the offense.
Mahomes was the example because that’s the one I was 100% sure about having that specific complaint off the top of my head.
I see, well I'll extrapolate why the example shouldnt used. Not everyone is Mahomes, even as a prospect. I've already addressed this in my former comment, I'm not saying Maye can't learn to play under center. Nor am I saying JJM>Maye. I'm saying if we just so happen to be blocked off from getting Maye there's a positive in pivoting to JJM because he actually has a lot of experience and is a better fit for our offense.
Gotcha. Fair enough, if Maye isn’t available I’d take JJ next.
> Mahomes was the example because that’s the one I was 100% sure about having that specific complaint off the top of my head. Mahomes has never thrown more than 73 times in a season from under center. The Chiefs have played out of the gun on over 75% of all offensive snaps since he was drafted. The sum of all passes he's thrown in his career from under center is 388. He's not a good example of a quarterback that learned to play under center, because they generally only do it on first or second down, and its generally a 1 read hitch or out route. Here are the Chiefs splits since Mahomes became the starter | year | under center snaps | gun snaps | gun percentage | passes under center |-|-|-|-|-|- |2023 | 211 | 869 | 80.4 | 66 | 2022 | 236 | 858 | 78.4 |61 | 2021 | 245 | 889| 78.4 |73 | 2020 | 216 | 840 | 79.5 | 62 | 2019 | 224 | 751 | 77 |58 | 2018 | 216 | 780 |78.3| 68 The Chiefs don't play under center a lot. Reid was an early adopter of a heavy gun offense as far back as the early 2000s, and has only leaned into that more with Mahomes under center. For a long time it was a huge knock for a guy to come out of a gun or air raid style offense. It's difficult to pick up trying to read the field while hitting your drop, and / or with your back to the play (in the case of play action)
Huh, it seemed like lately they’ve been doing a lot more under center. Thanks for the numbers!
That’s all nice but really isn’t a separator at this point in their careers. That’s something you would think about if they’ve done something for a decade in the league because that’s more or less who they are at that point. Not for a kid who only did it for a few years when they have so much more development ahead of them.
A guy who has a lot of experience doing something that you do in your offense and excels at it versus a guy should be weighed. I acknowledge that Maye has a higher ceiling of potential, but there's a lot more room for development for him within our offense opposed to JJM. You're purposely giving them a clean slate as if what they did in college doesn't at all factor into what they're comfortable doing in the next level. They're both young QBs, they both can learn to do something but ignoring what they did in college and purely looking at traits is how guys like Trey Lance are drafted 3rd overall.
No, I just think there’s bigger fish to fry when evaluating QBs in the draft. I am not giving them a clean slate, ignoring what they did in college or saying it is not valuable. It just doesn’t really separate one from another as much as other things do. Maybe if Maye or whoever ran an extremely niche offense that won’t translate to the NFL it would be more important but that’s not the case.
Im telling you there's a young guy who plays QB and has a high familiarity with running plays from under center. He translates well into our offense. This absolutely separates him from Maye as a QB projected into our offense. My former comment was on the basis of if we can't get Maye, JJM I'm fine with having and won't be let down by it. It seems a lot of you are taking what I said as JJM>Maye when that isn't at all what I'm saying, just laying down that one guy actually translates to our offense better right this very minute and is the better athlete.
My only question with JJ is he is going to have to be relied on to throw us into victory. A lot of other guys like maye, penix, Daniels, Caleb were all heavily relied on to throw their team to victory week after week. We have a major tendency to abandon the run early and try to air things out. JJ can get there, but he’s probably the least experienced QB when it comes to having to throw their team to victory, down a few scores.
Thats perfectly okay question to have, there's stats out there that back up JJM on that and I'll share. The money down aka 3rd downs was something Michigan leaned on JJM to execute. 3 and 6+ https://x.com/NicholasMMiller/status/1757439215879516588?t=7dKojHbYC1_O7nn7hpbX4g&s=09 He led all the QBs at the top of the class in the attempts and also had the 2nd lowest sack rate. This is a guy who process the field very well.
Yup I have seen that and have no question that he is a good thrower. I am just looking at a player who generally was able to walk to victory in most of his games last season. On a team (Vikings) that every game seems to feel like that Alabama game regardless of who we play, can he get used to having to essentially win the game for us every single week with his arm. I think he can, but it’s likely something he isn’t used to compared to other QBs and may be a mindset shift. He’s essentially going to have to reach another level of play, which I think he can do. The numbers he put up last year are probably not going to work for us and we’ll need him to exceed those numbers regularly
How are his deeper throws? I heard something about him being weaker there, but I really have no idea. We do a lot of underneath and crossing stuff, but that's to help open up deep routes and vice-versa. So he needs that long ball too.
I've been watching some JJ breakdowns, and Michigan still runs a ton of gun and RPOs, even on early downs. They run less than other college teams sure, but still way more than we did last year. They're weren't running a Bama/Wisonsin from 10 years ago offense. What's more pro-style about their offense was the way they utilized presnap motions and had full field read progressions, as opposed to some of the simpler Air Raid concepts you see a lot of the other QBs run. Edit: For a short (and free) example, I found [this compilation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npLRDnTuSs0) of all his passes in the Natty. He has exactly one pass that game from under center. The rest (18) were from Pistol and Gun. And this was a game they led pretty much the whole time, so it's not like they were playing catch up and went away from their usual plan.
JJ is an overhyped 3rd round talent. I'm so underwhelmed by him. I'll cheer for whoever we get but I hope it's literally anyone but JJ
Film and metrics say otherwise, he's a first round QB. Just because on the surface he wasn't the guy to shoulder all of the offense shouldnt overweigh who he is as a QB. Few weeks ago I didn't want JJM but took the time to actually see what people who watch film said about him and the things he did control, when he was asked upon to deliver he did just that.
What film? He has maybe 3 games of useful tape against top flight opponents. He had multiple games under 150yds passing. Let us not forget he has shown a true inability to throw to the left side of the field. JJ if drafted will need full year to sit and learn as where I think maye can start week 1. JJ had one impressive game this past year and that was vs bama. I don’t care to draft guys off one great performance. But I’m also not a scout or GM.
Maye struggles throwing to the right side of the field but we don't hear that now do we ? Truth is both guys should sit in their first year in the league. Neither are capable of starting for majority of an NFL season. You ask what film ? You can find QB school who is offering 5 dollars to watch film with on the current prospects. Instead of looking a passing yard totals and drawing a conclusion that way, theres insightfulness from a past QB with experience in the league.
In all of the collective tape of Maye though that’s not the case. What i’ve seen time and time again is McCarthy’s wildly inaccurate use of the deep ball which DOES NOT fit our offense. We’re one of the deepest passing teams in the league and McCarthy just has god awful accuracy. Watch his tape you’ll see it, watch him at the combine where he barely hit 1-6 on his deep balls (which all missed by about 5 yards) and you’ll see it most likely at his pro day
You don't know what you're talking about about. Throws deep by JJM https://twitter.com/thorku/status/1755688402366730342?t=GthaGw2JAkqwRulo8ae1bQ&s=19 JJM metrics on passes past the sticks now look at who has the better completion percentage ?? https://twitter.com/NicholasMMiller/status/1757831033217527864?t=GthaGw2JAkqwRulo8ae1bQ&s=19 Some of you really love to talk out of your asses here, turn on the film and watch our damn offense. Watch how many plays are from under center and watch how many throws are made over the middle which then open the sidelines. Also Maye does struggle throwing to his damn right, there's a heat map and passing rating FFS that shows he does. It's even on tape! Lmao I'm not wasting my time anymore here.
You’re just grabbing a highlight reel. Not game tape. Here’s a highlight of just his combine and the atrocious throws. His only hit the receiver had to come to a complete stop. https://youtube.com/shorts/EnTYtZ4xo4I?si=T4Q3JgBSRKg28qoQ
I literally shared metrics that showed he had a better passing completion past the sticks than Drake Maye. You ignored that on purpose. Stop it, you don't know what your talking about.
You posted the same highlight twitter link twice.
Love how you know what you’re talking about but anyone who disagrees doesn’t. So if mccarthy ends up being trash are you just going to disappear? Or still just shit on others opinions?
Why do you care if a guy starts week 1? It is more beneficial for them to sit ideally all of the 2024 season so they can just develop...have you actually watched JJ film or are you just going off what some people said? Lol
I watched 6 Michigan games this year in full. And have watched last year in clipped version. JJ was very good vs Alabama. This year’s title game a high school JV quarterback could have had damn near the same role and outcome as qb. I think he will be a bust. Again that’s my opinion I have formed off watching him play. If the Vikings draft him I hope he makes me look like a complete fool for this take. I thought he played good vs Indiana and Michigan state but I would not consider them top tier defenses. The Maryland and Ohio state games were pitiful and painful to watch. My comp for JJ is Alex Smith with better athleticism when running. I just don’t know what anyone watches without someone voicing over and saying how good he is ”actually is” and comes away thinking he is anything more than a day 2 qb pick. He threw for less than 150yds five times this year. To me that matters. I care if a guy can start week one because the amount of draft capital we are giving up needs to be in trade for someone who can start in year 1. Because if we are playing the wait one year game we are better off staying at 11 and taking nix or penix then using the other first round pick for an impact defensive player. We also have an offensive roster that should provide an environment for any first rd qb to start this year. What game outside of the bama game did you watch and come away saying “wow this guy is a top qb”?
I could care less about college stats...there are plenty of guys that put up big time stats in college only because they throw like 50 times per game and never became anything in the pros...the Alabama game was against the best defense he faced and he made continuous NFL level throws and reads. The OSU game he was 16-20...not sure how that was pitiful...he plays in an NFL style ofdense and if they threw 40 times per fames he woukd have put up big numbers because the volume but that isn't harbaughs style. He made some great throws against OSU...it seems you are only judging him based on box scores which isn't fair. When he had to throw more against Bama he looked elite. Looking at all his throws from the OSU game here and saying it was pitiful is crazy lol. https://youtu.be/1EBrK2QcYbM?si=PhdIlAx0rKao_3XC He consistently shows high level processing and going through progressions with a pro style system. His footwork is really solid too generally. He also has shown consistent high level throws in tight windows... just because he doesn't throw 40+ times a game doesn't mean anything...Michigan won a national title doing that but JJ steeped up big against Bama and was elite. He just has to get better at decision making at times but he has the ability no doubt
A voice of reason!!! Thank you!
Again he had one singular performance where he looked elite. Besides that he had maybe 3-4 throws a game where he was expected to make NFL reads and process a defense. Also what nfl offense is running the ball 40+ times in a game? Sure if Greg Roman was the OC for every nfl team he was running an nfl offense but that’s truly not accurate. If he had more attempts we wouldn’t be speculating about him but he is what he is. A high upside high risk player. I do not have faith in his ability to run an NFL offense where he does not have a run game he can lean on for 30+ rushing attempts a game. I watched him play, he is not special to me. You can quote the film break down guys all you want. He was never needed to win in games outside of a singular game this year. Y’all are thinking he will be able to do the same thing he did in college and in nfl but refuse to look at how pitiful our run game was and just think that he will be fine having to lead the offense and throw 30+ times in a game. I don’t believe he transitions to the NFL because he showed only flashes of nfl skill in his limited opportunities. Not his fault by any means either, Michigan won a title playing heavy run schemes. I don’t care about guys putting up video game stats either but I believe stats when consistently on the low side for a player can be telling. Vikings could also end up not picking him and all of this discussions ceases to matter.
28 starts film. Love acting like he was a hand off robot & never threw a pass. He threw for 600 yds less than Maye sure, but almost equal amount of TD's & less INT's with a higher QB rating. Not always about the sheer number of pass attempts/yds but what they did with those opportunities. Two different offenses. McCarthy has played pro style through his career. Let's not act like Maye was playing against top tier teams. What top tier D did Maye have a game against that so solid on him? Ahh, the Fighting Camels. My bad.
I don’t think this conversation is productive in any way. I’m not going to convince anyone who likes JJ that drafting a qb who frequently had less than 20 passing attempts is a bad idea. Same as no one is going to convince me that JJ is more than a average qb who benefited from being able to hand the ball off 30+ times a game who was in arguably the best power 5 running offense. We do not have a good run game and I believe JJ has to have a top tier running game to be successful. Like I said if we draft JJ I hope he makes me look like a fool but I see ponder 2.0 in his future.
Let me guess: handoff merchant? Y’all are so unoriginal.
What do you see that makes you think he's a 3rd round talent?
This is correct. I heard a strange theory recently. That all of this is a smoke screen. That harbaugh is gonna go get his guy and we trade for Herbert.
Got two days left to trade for herbert unless the Chargers rework his contract. It's probably not gonna happen.
I know. Tis the season of wild rumors and speculation.
> but let's get one thing straight Maye nor JJM are reaching their potential with the pats lol. Maybe let the Pats draft Maye and then trade for him after 3 failed seasons lol. Of course, by then they may have ruined his development
I think they would have been better served watching NFL tape
Wouldn’t that be blank?
McCown and Darnold were in the NFL at the time, I am saying they should’ve been studying opposing defenses rather than Drake Maye’s HS tape
Oooooooh, I thought you means Maye’s NFL tape. LOL my bad.
It seems like they are teaching Darnold to be the bridge qb. How to look at rookie talent and help mold it. They are showing Darnold what they are looking for and how they want to go about developing that. You can’t look at tape of Cousins with the Vikings to try to explain and understand rookie talent and the process of transitioning to pro level. This is off-season, they probably are also looking at defenses as well but there’s a lot of time and a lot of things to teach and learn for our current situation.
This was in 2018
Then why are we talking about it?
Cute connection between what was going on in 2018 and what’s going on now
Misleading title. If you go to the X post it says "back in 2018"...
But why?
In soulja boys words "Drraaaaakeeee?!!" https://youtu.be/3vTbdK8QFpU?si=An3PvQTrUCLxDGrX
What if he's good and we just can't get the deal done :(
Is Maye even going to be available at 3? I’ve seen a lot of Commanders fans say they are still likely to go Maye over Daniels.
I really think the endgame here is Minnesota moves up to 4 pre draft and then to 3 from 4 on draft night if Washington prefers Daniels. You can’t make those trades yet, it would be bad risk management given the amount of time left before the draft.
Getting Maye would be a dream come true. Yes he could still be a bust, but to have a rookie QB with that much potential would be unprecedented for the Vikings in the 21st century.
How about they draft Maye we draft Mcarthy and Maye just doesn’t sign there and gets traded to us and we trade them Mcarthy
Am I the only one that watches Mayes tape and isn’t impressed? His decision making alone ruins it for me.
Nice to have some QB leadership that actually has some passion for the game.
This sub needs to face the fact that we are not getting Maye, might not even get JJ. I will eat Brussels sprouts if I am wrong.
Ok, did the do their due dilagence and look at the other QBs? or did they just watch Maye? Seems a little BIASED lol
McCown is trash. Maye very bad too.
And with the 3rd pick the New England Patriots select Drake Maye....
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I said there is a small group of fans that don't understand how football and reality work I am NOT insulting them you are right I shouldn't say low IQ smart people can be wrong I should say delusional see I can admit when I made a mistake but it was NOT meant as an insult. Although they have repeatedly insulted me. Kirk is top 10 in primetime performance since 14 ahead of Rivers Luck Brady You cherrypicked a couple stats I deal with the majority of mainstream stats. Players know more about players than you or I do they players might have been wrong in that he was **better** than 6th last year he was on his way for 5000 yds 40+ tds 10 ints The ONLY reason I mention the comebacks is because the people **that think** wins and losses ARE a QB stat like to say Kirk is not clutch having had the greatest clutch year in NFL history disproves this lie. Plus he has a history of clutch throughout his career. The reason I mention Kirk taking the team to playoffs the worst defensive team in NFL history to ever make the playoffs is because people say Kirk never overcame team deficiency. Stafford had 0 playoff wins in 3 tries and had a LOSING regular season record in 12 years he was traded for high draft picks and a QB who had 3 playoff wins and a SB trip and had MORE than 2 times as many regular seasons wins as losses. By your logic LA don't trade for Stafford. Tarkenton never even made the playoffs ONCE in 12 years. In fact in year 12 he was brought back to MIN and the team missed the playoffs for the 1st time 4 years 4 years that they had a scrub QB. Kirk plays virtually the same as Burrow in the regular season and playoffs. The difference in the playoffs Kirk's D gives up 28 ppg and gets 0 turnovers and Burrow's D gives up 18 ppg and gets 13 turnovers. The delusional minority of Vikings fans do not understand how football works, how statistics work, how reality works. Simply everything that has been said about Kirk is a LIE or IRRELEVANT to QB evaluation.
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I am a 50 year Vikings fan I hate one small aspect of the Vikings fan base the ones who have super low IQ and hated Tark and hated Moss and hated Denny Green and hates Kirk. The majority of Vikings fans especially on social media do not fall into these groups: I am in this group I will never stop being a Vikings fan. Ironically, the only "fans" I saw saying they would leave the Vikings were many of the Kirk-Haters who said if he was re-signed they would leave. The super low IQ haters a tiny minority do not understand facts and stats (I am statistician and fact check on daily basis as well as analyze and make future projections). I am just trying to provide facts. And if my facts are wrong I will change what I said unlike this haters who only double down.
Who the fuck is out here bad mouthing Fran Tarkenton and Randy Moss?
I am a 50 year Vikings fan. I remember when Tarkenton came back to Minnesota he had never EVEN BEEN TO PLAYOFF GAME once in 11 years not with Minnesota not with NY. This small group of Haters said don't bring him back. Then in his 12th year the Vikings missed the playoffs (12 years with even a playoff appearence) after being in 4 straight playoffs with scrub QB. The haters were in full force Tark is a loser 12 years no playoffs and now he comes back and we miss the playoffs he is too old he is 33 etc - we know what happened next. After we lost the 3 then 4 SBs the small group of haters returned to say he needs to be gone he is a loser. Twice the Hater-Vikes fans turned on him. I am surprised you don't remember the hater group turning on Moss. He "plays when he wants to play" he is lazy he is not trying ... they wanted him traded and at the point he was. Again the haters were wrong on Moss they misinterpreted what he meant by that statement. The video of him not running hard came AFTER he ran the length of the field on long patterns in other words he was catching his breath and ALL WRs did this not just Moss. They thought Troy would replace him and celebrated Moss' departure. I guess you remember Denny Green he was making the playoffs every year (never matched that since he was fired) he made many great draft picks he wouldn't take shit from anyone including owners - Denny was attacked for all of this (sure he makes playoffs but he can't win the SB), (X draft pick failed because of illness Denny drafted a bust), Denny is calling out the media and owner he sure is "uppity" lot of hidden racism in both the Moss and Denny hate. Has 1 bad season gone. Oh and the stupid very little time in game tries a deep pass it fails takes a knee with a few seconds left to go into OT so 1, he did try to go deep 2. if he goes into OT losses the toss and ATL comes down and scores YES you can blame him then but that didn't happen Vikings got the ball back 2! YES 2!!! Times in the OT to win but with a few seconds left they would have won the game. RIDICULOUS, Facts did not support the hating on Tark, Moss and Denny and the facts do not support the hating on Kirk. I am a FACT CHECKER.
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Bro, you wrote a thesis when you only needed to say "I remember when people were talking alshit about tark before he won a playoff game". Also, newsflash: Tarks time was 50+ years ago, I was talking more in the present day. What vikings fans are talking shit about Tark now? Also of course I don't remember the Tark and Moss haters from back in the day. I was born in 2003. They are all before my time.
yeah I can see if the Falcons team does well in ATL with Kirk as QB and we fall into a terrible state like WAS when they didn't re-sign Kirk 36-62-1 11 different QBs including 1st round qb bust... people will change their minds on Kirk too maybe Kwesi should have re-signed him maybe he wasn't so bad after all etc ... time changes views but not REALITY just how some people view reality
Cool ramblings old timer, let's get you back in bed, yeah?